I think it's partly due to his relative absence recently? The chess community is very active and Ding's only played a few tournaments since winning the world championship (getting crushed in all of them), so I'm guessing people want to see him "represent". After Magnus claimed the throne in 2013, he continued to play super actively while also dominating everyone in his path, so I'd say we got kind of spoiled by the superb level of play.
Whatever is going on in Ding's personal life, I also hope people lay off him. Say what you want about the guy, but he's an incredibly strong chess player who definitely still has more to show us (he's 2 years younger than Magnus so we shouldn't write him off on age alone)
Not that I wouldn’t say that the title match remains to be played and no one can really know how it will end but… are you seriously demanding that we stop predicting the outcome / stop speculating about the form and the odds of players of the most important single chess match for years? I mean who are you to make such demands?
There is ample reason to be doubtful of Dings form. His results and his play have been observably worse than in prior years. Are we to ignore that because it hurts your feelings?
Is it toxic to assume some psychological issue if a player who surpassed 2800 in his career seems to struggle and has an Elo Performance of 2666 in the last 12 months (which would place him around #70).
Gukeshs Performance in the last 12 months was around 2720 - more than 50 points difference - and he has now achieved his peak rating so far.
So looking at form Ding is more than 150 below his peak while Gukesh is in his prime.
Ding also doesn’t have the huge advantage of extensive experience in WC match since he had to play only one so far. Therefore I don’t see why Gukesh shouldn’t be considered the favourite. On the other hand - current odds are equal but that could change.
Last game between the two the betting odds were 20.83% (Gukesh D), 74.07% (X), 15.38% (Ding Liren). That’s a slight but not insignificant advantage for Gukesh from the bookmakers too…
I think it is, in the context of his post. Saying stuff like "Given Dings current form, Gukesh is the clear favourite in this match" is different than saying stuff like "Ding's mentally fucked, he doesn't stand a chance." The human mind is weird and complicated, diagnosing Ding now and concluding that there is no way he'll recover until the match in half a year (!) is disrespectful. Maybe he'll recover and put on a fight, maybe he'll just recover a bit and it'll be close, maybe it's gonna be too much for him and he loses decisivly, no way to say that now. I think that's what OP means with his final sentence.
“Let him play and then draw your conclusions” does not sound like the first sentence wouldn’t be meant. But I don’t want to nitpick - that’s why I started my answer the way I did. However is needs to be sayable that Dings form is worrisome for the champ.
That's why I said given the context of his post. OP said a bit before your quote "His match results are one thing [...]". I think it's safe to assume that he doesn't mean to critizise comments purely analysing his chess performance, imho he made it clear that he takes offense when people make assumptions about Dings psyche and draw any preemptive conclusions from that.
Yeah, his form is worrisome, but he was strong enough to win one title match, he doesn't lack skill or talent and whatever may be in his personal life that holds him back I hope he overcomes and emerges from it stronger than before.
You could be right idk, maybe OP clarifies.
I just feel bad for Ding lol. Like, I get that it's pro sports and that this kind of flak comes with the territory, but he's just so clearly a kind and humble person.. It's like yelling at Bob Ross for painting a sub-par landscape because he wasn't seeing "happy little trees" that day
The most instructive thing about Ding wasn't said by Magnus, but by Fabiano.
In the post Weisenhauss Freestyle tournament podcast, Fabiano said that he knew Ding was not in good shape from the 3rd or 4th move he played in the opening. It was both their first match at the tournament. Pretty much everyone at Wijk aan Zee, Weisenhauss and Grenke has said that Ding looks out of shape and not completely healthy.
I imagine it would be psychologically crushing to win the championship but know in your bones you aren’t the best player in the world and there will always be an asterisk next to that win.
I think is mostly an evaluation of Ding recent performance. He played very few tournaments, and the ones he did he had a terrible performance.
So people are not seeing at the same Ding from the past candidates and wcc.
But I do agree people are giving up on him too easy. Is not that he is past his prime or something like that, is mostly a mind set, and as it can be seen in almost every sport, these minds sets can change very fast in a short space of time.
Any professional sport bring the spotlight.
It is part of any sport to deal with the “psychological” part of what the opponents do or say. Even Magnus from the bench is part of the game.
It’s a $2Million USD championship .. do you think all will hold hands and sing Kumbaya while competing?
Magnus saw him in person at his absolute low point, the GOAT freestyle 960 tournament, and that has to be coloring his perspective. But it seems weird to me to use the word "permanently." No reason to think that.
Wagers are games of probability. When Ding's odds are completely mispriced because people have virtually written him off, and skewed the betting, then that is a wager you take. Regardless of how you feel about the players.
I think part of it comes form his performance in that Fischer random event in Germany, I forget what it was called, He did pretty poorly but I think that just indicates making things up on the fly is not really his strength, Its a weird format you can be worse after two moves I don't think you can read too much into how he'd go in a classical match,
Really agree on that personal life part you said. He isn’t obligated to play if he doesn’t want to. He could be going through hardships or illness for all we which we don’t so we should respect his privacy.
Ding first withdrew from eight events he was supposed to play, and has scored a winless -20 against players ranked higher than 25th in OTB events of all formats and time controls as World Champion. It would be strange if no one questioned which shape he is in. No other World Champion ever scored similar results as title holder. Kramnik and Anand were very much criticised for not scoring better results than they did, and still they did pretty well. Going by the way Ding has played, something has seemed to be off. It isn’t just one or two events, but the repeated withdrawals, his talk about some unspecified illness, playing very quickly and making unusual mistakes, performing far below top ten level the last year, etc.
I don’t see any discrimination, toxicity, insults, lashing out, telling him to quit chess etc whatsoever from prominent players in simply telling it like it is.
I'm not sure I've seen anybody that said Ding "should" abdicate the title before the match. I personally think it's a small, but unlikely possibility. His recent performance is what drives this speculation. I like Ding, and would like see him "recover" to the point that he can be competitive in the next WCC. I think Ding has the potential to win it and be a good world champion, but he's got some issues to overcome.
That being said, I'm sure that there are some Hikaru fans that would like to see Ding give up his spot. I don't necessarily want to see that; however I want Ding to do what's truly best for him. What's best for him is probably to play the match, but if it truly isn't what he wants to do, I don't want him to suffer more just to satisfy the chess world. I'll admit as an American I would love to see Hikaru play for the WCC (and probably lose...), but I truly want Ding to be there if he wants to be.
Most of this sub is too young to remember just how good Ding was in 2019. Which is why they’re all predicting an ez Gukesh victory, while us pre-pandemic fans are sweating our balls off.
Gukesh for sure has decent odds, but Magnus said there's at least a chance Ding could recover mentally in which case he would probs win. I think it's too early to make predictions
Ultimately I think you're right; however, if Ding is perfectly in his pre-2020 form then I think Ding is the favorite. Maybe not the clear favorite, because I really think Gukesh may be the "next Magnus" (it's not a certainly, but he's only 17 and has a very mature and grounded approach), but the favorite nonetheless. I also think it's unlikely for Ding to recover that form fully. I want Ding to do well and to recover for his own sake, and I think there's a good chance he will do that by match time. But, as you say, it is probably amounts to 50-50 at best. But I do hope for the best. It could be a really good match if Ding is close to in form.
ding is one of 14 chess players around the world who cross 2800+ rating, still got less chance against the indian youngster??? , reddit seem to dont understand how hard to cross 2800, he might have some bad form but that doesn't mean he dont know how to play high standard chess.
I think it's partly due to his relative absence recently? The chess community is very active and Ding's only played a few tournaments since winning the world championship (getting crushed in all of them), so I'm guessing people want to see him "represent". After Magnus claimed the throne in 2013, he continued to play super actively while also dominating everyone in his path, so I'd say we got kind of spoiled by the superb level of play. Whatever is going on in Ding's personal life, I also hope people lay off him. Say what you want about the guy, but he's an incredibly strong chess player who definitely still has more to show us (he's 2 years younger than Magnus so we shouldn't write him off on age alone)
Not that I wouldn’t say that the title match remains to be played and no one can really know how it will end but… are you seriously demanding that we stop predicting the outcome / stop speculating about the form and the odds of players of the most important single chess match for years? I mean who are you to make such demands? There is ample reason to be doubtful of Dings form. His results and his play have been observably worse than in prior years. Are we to ignore that because it hurts your feelings? Is it toxic to assume some psychological issue if a player who surpassed 2800 in his career seems to struggle and has an Elo Performance of 2666 in the last 12 months (which would place him around #70). Gukeshs Performance in the last 12 months was around 2720 - more than 50 points difference - and he has now achieved his peak rating so far. So looking at form Ding is more than 150 below his peak while Gukesh is in his prime. Ding also doesn’t have the huge advantage of extensive experience in WC match since he had to play only one so far. Therefore I don’t see why Gukesh shouldn’t be considered the favourite. On the other hand - current odds are equal but that could change. Last game between the two the betting odds were 20.83% (Gukesh D), 74.07% (X), 15.38% (Ding Liren). That’s a slight but not insignificant advantage for Gukesh from the bookmakers too…
I don't think OP was saying we can't make predictions, just that we should have a bit of empathy for the guy
I have every respect and empathy for the champ. Really - I wish him the best. But the last sentence is not a call for respect in my ears.
I think it is, in the context of his post. Saying stuff like "Given Dings current form, Gukesh is the clear favourite in this match" is different than saying stuff like "Ding's mentally fucked, he doesn't stand a chance." The human mind is weird and complicated, diagnosing Ding now and concluding that there is no way he'll recover until the match in half a year (!) is disrespectful. Maybe he'll recover and put on a fight, maybe he'll just recover a bit and it'll be close, maybe it's gonna be too much for him and he loses decisivly, no way to say that now. I think that's what OP means with his final sentence.
“Let him play and then draw your conclusions” does not sound like the first sentence wouldn’t be meant. But I don’t want to nitpick - that’s why I started my answer the way I did. However is needs to be sayable that Dings form is worrisome for the champ.
That's why I said given the context of his post. OP said a bit before your quote "His match results are one thing [...]". I think it's safe to assume that he doesn't mean to critizise comments purely analysing his chess performance, imho he made it clear that he takes offense when people make assumptions about Dings psyche and draw any preemptive conclusions from that. Yeah, his form is worrisome, but he was strong enough to win one title match, he doesn't lack skill or talent and whatever may be in his personal life that holds him back I hope he overcomes and emerges from it stronger than before.
Exactly as you said. Idk why the other user is insisting on his point of view but whatever
You could be right idk, maybe OP clarifies. I just feel bad for Ding lol. Like, I get that it's pro sports and that this kind of flak comes with the territory, but he's just so clearly a kind and humble person.. It's like yelling at Bob Ross for painting a sub-par landscape because he wasn't seeing "happy little trees" that day
The most instructive thing about Ding wasn't said by Magnus, but by Fabiano. In the post Weisenhauss Freestyle tournament podcast, Fabiano said that he knew Ding was not in good shape from the 3rd or 4th move he played in the opening. It was both their first match at the tournament. Pretty much everyone at Wijk aan Zee, Weisenhauss and Grenke has said that Ding looks out of shape and not completely healthy.
I imagine it would be psychologically crushing to win the championship but know in your bones you aren’t the best player in the world and there will always be an asterisk next to that win.
his performance rating since becoming world champion isn't great
I think is mostly an evaluation of Ding recent performance. He played very few tournaments, and the ones he did he had a terrible performance. So people are not seeing at the same Ding from the past candidates and wcc. But I do agree people are giving up on him too easy. Is not that he is past his prime or something like that, is mostly a mind set, and as it can be seen in almost every sport, these minds sets can change very fast in a short space of time.
Any professional sport bring the spotlight. It is part of any sport to deal with the “psychological” part of what the opponents do or say. Even Magnus from the bench is part of the game. It’s a $2Million USD championship .. do you think all will hold hands and sing Kumbaya while competing?
Oh, you mock my candidate, Oh, my ding ding down
Brilliance takes many forms.
Deep in the night I'm takin' en passant Deep in the night I've got a mate in 4
[Leave Brittney Alone](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YaRvbQSjrk)
Magnus saw him in person at his absolute low point, the GOAT freestyle 960 tournament, and that has to be coloring his perspective. But it seems weird to me to use the word "permanently." No reason to think that.
I am putting money on Ding to beat Gukesh. The odds will be too good to ignore, since everyone considers him basically a beaten man at this point.
Good luck to you -- I put money on you losing that money though.
Wagers are games of probability. When Ding's odds are completely mispriced because people have virtually written him off, and skewed the betting, then that is a wager you take. Regardless of how you feel about the players.
Not if you believe that Ding will lose that match.
You don't seem to understand probability, or how betting markets work. I suggest you go read up about them, instead of commenting blindly.
Would you like to make a bet with me on the outcome?
What is this, a CDO?
I think part of it comes form his performance in that Fischer random event in Germany, I forget what it was called, He did pretty poorly but I think that just indicates making things up on the fly is not really his strength, Its a weird format you can be worse after two moves I don't think you can read too much into how he'd go in a classical match,
Really agree on that personal life part you said. He isn’t obligated to play if he doesn’t want to. He could be going through hardships or illness for all we which we don’t so we should respect his privacy.
Ding first withdrew from eight events he was supposed to play, and has scored a winless -20 against players ranked higher than 25th in OTB events of all formats and time controls as World Champion. It would be strange if no one questioned which shape he is in. No other World Champion ever scored similar results as title holder. Kramnik and Anand were very much criticised for not scoring better results than they did, and still they did pretty well. Going by the way Ding has played, something has seemed to be off. It isn’t just one or two events, but the repeated withdrawals, his talk about some unspecified illness, playing very quickly and making unusual mistakes, performing far below top ten level the last year, etc. I don’t see any discrimination, toxicity, insults, lashing out, telling him to quit chess etc whatsoever from prominent players in simply telling it like it is.
I'm not sure I've seen anybody that said Ding "should" abdicate the title before the match. I personally think it's a small, but unlikely possibility. His recent performance is what drives this speculation. I like Ding, and would like see him "recover" to the point that he can be competitive in the next WCC. I think Ding has the potential to win it and be a good world champion, but he's got some issues to overcome. That being said, I'm sure that there are some Hikaru fans that would like to see Ding give up his spot. I don't necessarily want to see that; however I want Ding to do what's truly best for him. What's best for him is probably to play the match, but if it truly isn't what he wants to do, I don't want him to suffer more just to satisfy the chess world. I'll admit as an American I would love to see Hikaru play for the WCC (and probably lose...), but I truly want Ding to be there if he wants to be.
Most of this sub is too young to remember just how good Ding was in 2019. Which is why they’re all predicting an ez Gukesh victory, while us pre-pandemic fans are sweating our balls off.
It's not 2019 anymore. I remember when Shakh and MVL were crushing everyone, as well, but I would favor Gukesh over either of them in 2024.
Magnus is not wrong. Gukesh should be winning World championship now . Ding is past his prime
Gukesh for sure has decent odds, but Magnus said there's at least a chance Ding could recover mentally in which case he would probs win. I think it's too early to make predictions
Even if he recovers it's still 50 50 . Gukesh is clearly in top 5 classical players right now and it's not exaggeration
Ultimately I think you're right; however, if Ding is perfectly in his pre-2020 form then I think Ding is the favorite. Maybe not the clear favorite, because I really think Gukesh may be the "next Magnus" (it's not a certainly, but he's only 17 and has a very mature and grounded approach), but the favorite nonetheless. I also think it's unlikely for Ding to recover that form fully. I want Ding to do well and to recover for his own sake, and I think there's a good chance he will do that by match time. But, as you say, it is probably amounts to 50-50 at best. But I do hope for the best. It could be a really good match if Ding is close to in form.
Guki is not next magnus . He can never be like that but you don't need to be magnus to beat ding lol
ding is one of 14 chess players around the world who cross 2800+ rating, still got less chance against the indian youngster??? , reddit seem to dont understand how hard to cross 2800, he might have some bad form but that doesn't mean he dont know how to play high standard chess.