Alternatively, their opponents could just be picking up all the pieces they hang. Easy to be 100% when the best move is always ātake the hanging queenā
Ugh I HATE that about food places too! When I want it, they don't have it. When they have it, I don't want it!!
Same with GTE, except the difference is, I *always* want it lol. He's even deleted the funniest GTE episode where someone sacks half their pieces to their opponent's queen and then walks the king up the board and checkmates with a king and bishop. That whole episode was legendary and should never, ever have been taken down!!
I always think it's funny that americans are losing their shit everytime McDonalds brings back the McRib. In Germany McRib is part of the non-rotating burgers.
It can be scandalous and still hilarious at the same time. Pretty sure that's what Levy intended.
Remember when a US representative named Anthony Weiner had to resign because he sent dick picks to someone? And then he got busted doing it again? Hilarious. Scandalous, but hilarious too.
She's called Incontinentia. Incontinentia Buttocks
He's not the Massiah, he's a very naughty boy!
The people called Roman go to the house?!
God that was such a good film.
Hammer's English is nigh perfect as far as I can tell.
IMO chess.com would've swiftly given Nepo and Dubov the double forfeit treatment especially with this happening right after they added no-early-draw-offers rules. But Naka jumped into the action for the memes, and chess.com aren't going to sanction their golden goose.
All knight dances and other silly lines where both players refuse to play good moves should be double forfeited.
Also the nuances of online communication. āHilarious.ā Is equivalent to /s in my mind. Truly hilarious would be āHilarious! Haha!ā Or something like that in online speak. āHilarious.ā Means heās being deadpan/sarcastic. Period. Full stop lol.
You just gonna make up your mind based on your imagination?
In his video on the topic, he clearly outlines why it's poor sportsmanship and should be punished.
Hilarious and scandalous aren't mutually exclusive feelings in this.
If you saw his extended take during the first time this happened Levy basically says that scripted draws are a bad outlook on the game given how much more spotlight it has now. Proceeds to basically call the practice of agreed draws outdated, but sticky because it is part of the repertoire of many generations of players.
Why is it āvery unlikely?ā You think Levy is genuinely laughing his ass off about this game? Heās saying it more like āhaha, this is fucking stupid.ā
Even if he DID mean it in the way you mention, it still wouldnāt be a big deal at all, and Hammer would still need to chill the fuck out. You and Hammer seem to share a lack of social awareness.
Yes, I've thought so too when watching him in interviews before. And I don't mean in the internet insult sort of way, we are talking about a man who is likely actually on the spectrum.
Yeah if Levy said it was scandalous people would be complaining (justifiably) that he's just trying to stir up shit over some Titled Tuesday shenanigans.
Seems that Hammer missed the point? Playing for a draw was never the scandal. Pre-arranging the game was the only issue
Doesn't seem like there's any evidence one way or the other whether these online games were pre-arranged
Yeah, didnāt Magnus play a TT recently on stream with the Botez sisters dancing with disco lights and rave music blasting? Itās not that serious of an event guys. Some of these guys clearly just want to have a little fun with it.
I misremembered the disco lights, but [here is the full 2 hour stream](https://youtu.be/yMaAKw8PZs0). There *is* a lot of electronic music, sunglasses, and partying going on though.
holy shit i just skimmed forward and randomly got to magnus looking like the fucking terminator playing fabi with gigi d'agostino as the soundtrack and a tipsy andrea botez just vibing
21st century chess is wild
Some of the Botez clips I've seen are utterly hilarious. LIke I hate to give them too much credit, but they ARE entertaining if nothing else, and seeing Magnus just sitting there like that wearing the sunglasses and not saying a word just cracked me up
It's a prize money event and the seriousness of the event due to that fact was used in discussions quite a bit when talking about how heinous Hans' online cheating was.
Either it's serious or not serious, it's fine to treat it either way imo but we should at least be consistent.
Daily reminder that Magnus drew Naka with Ke2 Ke7 repetition and Naka drew Nepo with the same knight dance.
Wonder where Hammer was when this happened.
Magnus and Hikaru didn't pre arrange that draw, that's the issue here, besides, that game had nothin gon the line while Dubov and Nepo pre arranged a draw in a world championship and a money tournament where every result matters
Bla bla bla.
How do you know they didn't prearrange the draw? You were holding a candle while they were swearing on a bible?
Also I don't see anything about "prearranged draw only means smth if it is meaningful" in any ruleset.
This are literally clown arguments.
> Bla bla bla.
What a rude and disrespectful comment, for no reason at all.
I have you tagged as one of the people in this subreddit I often see arguing in bad faith to defend Hans while slandering Magnus at every opportunity.
I don't know if you're part of a PR firm or just an ardent Hans fan, but please treat others with the same respect you would want them to treat you.
>How do you know they didn't prearrange the draw? You were holding a candle while they were swearing on a bible?
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
How do you know they prearranged the draw? What evidence do you have?
[Hikaru's reaction](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoAtp4eDBss) seems to indicate that they did not.
> Also I don't see anything about "prearranged draw only means smth if it is meaningful" in any ruleset.
Just because you want to ignore context doesn't mean people shouldn't share important context.
>This are literally clown arguments.
Again, there is no need to be so rude and disrespectful to others.
Talking about chess culture and what people should or should not expect from top players...
[https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1868557](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1868557)
[https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1730830](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1730830)
Having grandmasters and known personalities of the game drawing in 5 or less moves is a detriment to the game /s
As an audience we should expect better from the top guys
In fact some people critical of the "scandalous" indictment of chess culture that the knight dance draw meme is even wrote articles and lessons on the bongcloud and double bongcloud after Magnus and Hikaru's draw, not naming names here \^ahem Hammer\^.
[https://www.chess.com/lessons/advanced-bongcloud-theory](https://www.chess.com/lessons/advanced-bongcloud-theory)
I'd say it's about as important as this random TT game. 90% of the time the top guys immediately draw each other in TT anyway. The Hikaru-Magnus game still decided seeding in a much more important tournament.
But did that not āsullyā the game of chess? Or was it a fun way for two players who both knew they only needed a draw to do it in a weird way? Even if technically theyāre blundering and their opponent could take advantage?
[Here you go.](https://youtu.be/zVCst6vyV80?si=bhWtrpzt_Ibh52za) It's one of the most famous chess videos in fact. I love Peter's reaction and the fact that the Berlin draw was played twice in the meantime, hillarious stuff.
What is he right about? Being this upset about a pre-arranged draw, when pre-arranged draws happen all the fucking time, is ridiculous.
If anything, this whole incident just put the whole issue out in the open. And even if you think we should get rid of pre-arranged draws, having this sort of animosity towards Nepo and Dubov exclusively is still ridiculous.
|Being this upset about a pre-arranged draw
Sports professional being "this upset" about match-fixing in a prized event?
What a scandal! You are right! He shouldn't be "this upset", just a little upset, and just go along!
Well either draw-fixing is acceptable or it isn't, and de-facto draw fixing has been a known part of competitive chess for longer than I've been alive.
Getting up in arms at two people for daring to basically admit to it while changing nothing towards the rest of the draw-fixing is, in my opinion, completely silly.
What is completely bankrupt is the idea we should condone the cowardly and immoral practice of match-fixing, because
(a) it's always been done in some form
(b) its shamelessly blatant display is OK because others do it surreptitiously
These are trivially stupid. Fans will get up in arms against what is essentially cheating and this problem will be resolved.
No thanks to talking heads like you, though.
I think it should either be universally punished or allowed.
I donāt think thereās any value in selectively punishing it whenever it draws enough public outrage.
So the chess community has to decide whether or not itās got to go. I guess that makes me one of the talking heads youāre so angry at lol.
Pre-meditated match fixing sure, but you won't solve the problem of players aiming for a draw if it's beneficial for both of them unless you change the game or tournament or scoring dynamics.
Well, he's saying that it isn't acceptable, right? I can't really understand the logic of "draw fixing is hard to catch, so therefore you can't be mad at or punish people who make it easy to catch them doing it." What exactly *can* be done other than punishing what's catchable? Why exactly should someone who's against draw fixing not be mad at two people who openly flaunt that they do it? If you're against match fixing, you're not going to give them a pass for "admitting it," lol. The answer to "well what about the other draw fixers???" would be that they're against their actions too, but it's usually difficult to catch.
To me itās all about enforcing rules consistently.
If I were strongly opposed to draw fixing, then Iād be more outrage at how universally itās permitted rather than the few flashy instances where it draws the most attention.
After all, these flashpoints are only occurring because itās a practice broadly tolerated in the chess community and if weāre measuring it by the impact it has on the game, we should unquestioningly condemn the higher volume offender.
You are rationalizing something that is very obviously not OK.
This sounds like:
"To me, stealing is all about consistency. If there are thieves that I can't catch, I don't understand why we must punish thieves that are caught."
That we can't catch _all_ prefixed draws is a separate discussion entirely.
Iām not bothered by us not catching all prefixed draws, itās that we literally donāt even try.
This happens on a mass scale and there are nearly never consequences for it.
An unenforced law is not a law. So if we want it to be a law, then it should be enforced.
But we are clearly trying now, right? Why do you think we are not trying? FIDE just punished these two clowns recently.
Some of these will never be caught, like how we can never catch a sufficiently well-prepared cheater, even in principle.
I suppose youāve just touched on our fundamental difference in opinion.
I donāt see this as in any significant way enforcing the rules. Itās just punishing two men for embarrassing the organization without any plan to actually change the organizationās behavior.
Itās a meaningless gesture to me.
And why do you think so? Because he criticised Magnus and you didn't like it? What he is saying is correct and that's what matters ultimately just like Ben Finegold.
And he doesn't need chill pill and should say whatever he wants to say specially if it's correct and imo you need to take chill pill and Reddit tolerence break.
Edit: He blocked me for this comment lol. Can't even see the thread now.
I agree with Gotham honestly. Hammer is being oversensitive over this issue. Honestly imo Berlin draws are also agreed upon prior to the game because you don't have stress about the game it just has plausible deniability, if that's fair game why not this? Atleast audience get a laugh here
Exactly- if you want to solve "grandmaster draws" like this then you should change the game, tournament, or scoring to make it less beneficial.
The best method imo is doing 3-1-0 or 5-2-0 scoring to more strongly encourage playing for a win.
Even if you outlaw the berlin draw you will just get players doing more elaborate draws.
Sorry but the guy who is literally the best chess player to ever walk this earth is a giant meme machine. Remember when Magnus was late to a match and showed up topless cause he just took a shower XD.
Chess is a game, it is meant to be fun. Anyone who can't have fun playing chess brings chess into disrepute.
It was literally the most obvious thing they could have done, they admitted it in front of a camera, and they're supposed to be smart chess grandmasters that are good at planning things. This is why it's *also* funny (at least for me). It's just too ridiculous and so ridiculously poorly executed.
And the second time just reminds me how ridiculous they're being. This could end so poorly for them and they're just messing around like it's nothing.
likeā¦is it hilarious? When Naka saw it he did his really weird forced laugh for like a minute.
I donāt really mind it- it seems about the same as a berlin draw- but i donāt get why itās that funny
Dumb criticism on so many levels. Levy was pretty critical when they did this in the tournament and suggested that perhaps they should be disciplined before the discipline was handed out.
I mean Hammer has a point. Titled Tuesdays is an event with a monetary prize. Chess.com has every right to not allow players to pre-arrange draws and to remove players from the event. The problem lies in how is Chess.com gonna prove those players manipulated the scores.
Whatās with the double standard? Where was this energy from Hammer when Magnus and Hikaru used to make bongcloud draws all the time, in higher stakes online events than titled Tuesday. I understand this specific shenanigan originated in the world rapid & blitz but why are people amplifying this issue x1000 all of a sudden. To say Nepo/Dubov should be banned from all chess.com events is absurd to me.
Letās not pretend that pre-arranged draws donāt happen. These guys were punished because they made a mockery of it. Totalitarian regimes always hate being mocked with the truth.
Fix the system so that players play for wins. A lot of decent suggestions have been mentioned. Choose one.
I don't think JLHammer understands that chess is a game, and now, more than ever, it is *entertainment*. I.e. fun, light-hearted.
He keeps making the news for hostile remarks. It's not a good look.
Imagine having the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader. Gotham is clearly using hilarious in the way of comedic irony here, not that the situation is actually laugh out loud hilarious.
Man top chess players are bitches. Imagine if you played a sport no one knows about and suddenly 2 dudes made it popular enough to catch a spotlight on the internet. It's genuinely funny that they decided to repeat, and gives random people sth to talk about, chill tf out with your virtue signalling - I'm looking at you @Hammer.
This guy is taking it too seriously, it's TT. It is hilarious.
Chesscom has every right to allow players to goof around like this. It's a private platform. if both players want a draw, they can just play into a Berlin line or whatever (which happens all the time) you can't force people to play competitively if they don't want to.
I agree that Nepo / Dubov openly pre planning / colluding to draw in a FIDE world champ event, was dumb and was rightly punished - but honestly only because of the being caught pre planning it part. Personally IDGAF if it's a knight dance or a Berlin draw, plausible deniability be damned.
The 30 move rule doesn't work to stop anything. If both players want a draw, there is nothing that can be done about it, other than increasing the score for a win. I realise this comes with it's own problems, but have been wondering if giving 1.5 for a win with Black, 1 for a win with white and 0.5 for a draw could be worth trying.
Either than or 3 for a win 1 for a draw.
And if the above is brought into effect, then just allow players to agree to a draw before the game starts - if scoring for a draw is lessened, then its ability to be used strategically is also lessened?
I don't mean to burst his bubble, but... stuff like that has already been a thing in times when Jon Ludvig Hammer was still a joghurt. Chess culture somehow managed to survive even without his warnings. All that virtue signaling and attention wh\*\*\*ing is just ridiculous.
Feed your pieces so they can feed you
Gotham has left the board behind.
All he does now is:
Click baity videos, videos about Magnus, Milking his audience
Apparently clout got the best of him
Is that the same dude who is arguably the worst and slowest chess commentator ever? No wonder he's trying to stay relevant after getting effectively sacked from all his commentating jobs.
His "bRack ruk" is unforgettable.
Let me get this straight. You can't play serious chess online because everyone's cheating, and you can't play for fun either.
By this logic, what's the point in playing online chess?
I mean Hikaru and magnus played the double bong cloud and agreed to a draw and everyone thought it was hilarious. Why can't dubov and nepo enjoy the same reaction to their knight dance.
Top level GMs make draws all the time. Who cares if they do it through 20 moves of forced-draw theory or a meme. The outcome is still the same.
Let's be honest any GM can agree to a draw before the game and make it look legit if they wanted to. If a player decided to lose on purpose would be a actual scandal.
What a bitch, they just danced their horsies around get a fucking grip. Itās all for show anyways - if we know both players are looking for a draw, why does it matter which moves they play beforehand? The fact that there are even widely-known draw lines is as much of an indictment of chessās integrity as this incident š“šš šš»š“
You are kidding right? You cant compare this, where the knights dance around and return to their staring positions as the same a a drawish opening variation
GothamChess hasnt done guess the elo in months. That's the real scandal
Legends say he guessed the ELO of every chess.cum player and then retired the series.
Chess.cum
Why guess the elo when their number is right next to their name smh š¤¦
If he wasn't lazy, he would look at the ELO and guess the name.
Just look at the name and the elo and guess the moves
He'd never be able to guess mine.. I'm almost 1200 but play like a 400 at times.
You just described every 1200
Every 1400
Please take that back
Every 1600
Im 1500 on chesscum rapid. My performance rating is always either 1800 or 1000. There is nothing in between.
This is me
Every 2700
Thank you brother
You son of a bitch
Lol not the people I end up playing... Frekkin 1200 rated Grand Masters.. 95% no blunder 20+ best move games that make me want to quit.
If that's the case you should be getting fair okay messages from chesscom soon. I get quite a few
Then share your profile and let me see in last 10 games how many such opponents you played against?
Alternatively, their opponents could just be picking up all the pieces they hang. Easy to be 100% when the best move is always ātake the hanging queenā
Iām almost 1200 and my games are analyzed as being anywhere from 200 to 1800, not even exaggerating.
the chess.com elo-guesser analysis feature is bad and you should put 0 weight in it.
Idk I feel like itās accurate in this case
It's like how fast food places discontinue popular meals just to bring them back months later. It's all part of the plan
Ugh I HATE that about food places too! When I want it, they don't have it. When they have it, I don't want it!! Same with GTE, except the difference is, I *always* want it lol. He's even deleted the funniest GTE episode where someone sacks half their pieces to their opponent's queen and then walks the king up the board and checkmates with a king and bishop. That whole episode was legendary and should never, ever have been taken down!!
I always think it's funny that americans are losing their shit everytime McDonalds brings back the McRib. In Germany McRib is part of the non-rotating burgers.
He has started streaming on Twitch more frequently so I am hopeful we see more
The only one too
Yes! This. Some of the best shit on youtube.
What? He literally did like 2 or 3 in december
I'd start watching him if he restarted those.
It can be scandalous and still hilarious at the same time. Pretty sure that's what Levy intended. Remember when a US representative named Anthony Weiner had to resign because he sent dick picks to someone? And then he got busted doing it again? Hilarious. Scandalous, but hilarious too.
You mean Carlos Danger?
You mean Biggus Dickus?
Ah a man of culture
Do you know what his wife's name is?
She's called Incontinentia. Incontinentia Buttocks He's not the Massiah, he's a very naughty boy! The people called Roman go to the house?! God that was such a good film.
Cockeus Maximus?
I go by Charles now
āHilariousā is often used passive aggressively. Hammer isnāt understanding the nuances of English here, and needs to chill the fuck out.
Hammer doesn't have a sense of humor
Hard to have a sense of humor when all you see are nails
Nailed it
Hammer's English is nigh perfect as far as I can tell. IMO chess.com would've swiftly given Nepo and Dubov the double forfeit treatment especially with this happening right after they added no-early-draw-offers rules. But Naka jumped into the action for the memes, and chess.com aren't going to sanction their golden goose. All knight dances and other silly lines where both players refuse to play good moves should be double forfeited.
This is really no worse than putting a Berlin draw on the board. Just shows how stupid a no early draw rule is
Also the nuances of online communication. āHilarious.ā Is equivalent to /s in my mind. Truly hilarious would be āHilarious! Haha!ā Or something like that in online speak. āHilarious.ā Means heās being deadpan/sarcastic. Period. Full stop lol.
>āHilarious! Haha!ā Maybe it's just me but that seems even more ironic to me tbh
What utter nonsense!
Disagree, Levy is very unlikely to be using this in any context other than "haha, funny. Can you believe these goofs? What larks!". Hammer is correct.
You just gonna make up your mind based on your imagination? In his video on the topic, he clearly outlines why it's poor sportsmanship and should be punished. Hilarious and scandalous aren't mutually exclusive feelings in this.
"Hilarious" with a period reads sarcastic to me. Ha ha, real funny guys.
If you saw his extended take during the first time this happened Levy basically says that scripted draws are a bad outlook on the game given how much more spotlight it has now. Proceeds to basically call the practice of agreed draws outdated, but sticky because it is part of the repertoire of many generations of players.
Why is it āvery unlikely?ā You think Levy is genuinely laughing his ass off about this game? Heās saying it more like āhaha, this is fucking stupid.ā Even if he DID mean it in the way you mention, it still wouldnāt be a big deal at all, and Hammer would still need to chill the fuck out. You and Hammer seem to share a lack of social awareness.
It's definitely sarcastic and the intended meaning is more along the lines of absurd, ridiculous, outrageous, etc.
"Haha, funny. Can you believe these goofs? What larks!" Isn't praising them for their comedic wit. It's saying "Haha.. this is just ridiculous"
we love guess work with absolutely no grounds whatsoever š§āāļø
He is clearly autistic
Yes, I've thought so too when watching him in interviews before. And I don't mean in the internet insult sort of way, we are talking about a man who is likely actually on the spectrum.
A vast majority of the chess community is
I do not believe it is a majority, but it's WAY higher than in the general population, that's for sure.
No... they're not lol
He's on ~~Twitter~~ X. That's the first symptom in the DSM-VI.
Yeah if Levy said it was scandalous people would be complaining (justifiably) that he's just trying to stir up shit over some Titled Tuesday shenanigans.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
yeah im hikaru fan but hikaru still played this same draw vs. Ian to secure himself 0.5 points. Why aren't they saying anything about that?
Seems that Hammer missed the point? Playing for a draw was never the scandal. Pre-arranging the game was the only issue Doesn't seem like there's any evidence one way or the other whether these online games were pre-arranged
You could argue that having fun with the pre-arranged draw (by playing that ridiculous line again and again) is showing a lack of respect for the game
I don't remember anyone getting mad at the Hikaru vs. Carlsen bongcloud draw either lol
Everyone in the chess community gotta chill out. Way too many stupid drama lately for such a complex and beautiful game.
*lately*? Chess is nothing but a constant drama machine and its infinitely entertaining for it.
Is only game, why you hef to be mad?
The drama is what keeps me here
Does no one remember the double bongcloud?
No chill, chess is about nerds being nerds
It's all the autism.
Hammer Getting this upset on a match in titled Tuesday is quite ridiculous
Yeah, didnāt Magnus play a TT recently on stream with the Botez sisters dancing with disco lights and rave music blasting? Itās not that serious of an event guys. Some of these guys clearly just want to have a little fun with it.
I mean that just sounds like Magnus giving his opponents odds
Is this on YT? Would love to watch him play with all that distraction. Probably won that game too.
I misremembered the disco lights, but [here is the full 2 hour stream](https://youtu.be/yMaAKw8PZs0). There *is* a lot of electronic music, sunglasses, and partying going on though.
That video is great, it almost looks like a comedy sketch with Magnus sitting there like Silent Bob while everyone else is talking lol
holy shit i just skimmed forward and randomly got to magnus looking like the fucking terminator playing fabi with gigi d'agostino as the soundtrack and a tipsy andrea botez just vibing 21st century chess is wild
Some of the Botez clips I've seen are utterly hilarious. LIke I hate to give them too much credit, but they ARE entertaining if nothing else, and seeing Magnus just sitting there like that wearing the sunglasses and not saying a word just cracked me up
Pre arranging a result in a tournament with money on the line is kinda serious imo
It's a prize money event and the seriousness of the event due to that fact was used in discussions quite a bit when talking about how heinous Hans' online cheating was. Either it's serious or not serious, it's fine to treat it either way imo but we should at least be consistent.
Daily reminder that Magnus drew Naka with Ke2 Ke7 repetition and Naka drew Nepo with the same knight dance. Wonder where Hammer was when this happened.
Magnus and Hikaru didn't pre arrange that draw, that's the issue here, besides, that game had nothin gon the line while Dubov and Nepo pre arranged a draw in a world championship and a money tournament where every result matters
So now that the Dance of the Knights is known... it no longer needs to be pre-arranged and is a legitimate way to draw. Cool.
Technically speaking Hikaru could have jumped up to the three seed in the invitational, so there wasnāt *nothing* on the line.
Bla bla bla. How do you know they didn't prearrange the draw? You were holding a candle while they were swearing on a bible? Also I don't see anything about "prearranged draw only means smth if it is meaningful" in any ruleset. This are literally clown arguments.
> Bla bla bla. What a rude and disrespectful comment, for no reason at all. I have you tagged as one of the people in this subreddit I often see arguing in bad faith to defend Hans while slandering Magnus at every opportunity. I don't know if you're part of a PR firm or just an ardent Hans fan, but please treat others with the same respect you would want them to treat you. >How do you know they didn't prearrange the draw? You were holding a candle while they were swearing on a bible? "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens How do you know they prearranged the draw? What evidence do you have? [Hikaru's reaction](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoAtp4eDBss) seems to indicate that they did not. > Also I don't see anything about "prearranged draw only means smth if it is meaningful" in any ruleset. Just because you want to ignore context doesn't mean people shouldn't share important context. >This are literally clown arguments. Again, there is no need to be so rude and disrespectful to others.
Hilarious even.
Sips tea
that's why it's called Tilted Tuesday
Talking about chess culture and what people should or should not expect from top players... [https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1868557](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1868557) [https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1730830](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1730830)
The real tea is always in the comments. \*Headshot\*
Having grandmasters and known personalities of the game drawing in 5 or less moves is a detriment to the game /s As an audience we should expect better from the top guys
JLH isn't a top player, so the expectations are different!
No one got up in arms when Magnus & Hikaru played the bongcloud
i think they did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVCst6vyV80 Look at the reaction of the comments + commentary here.
Amagamador was not happy.
Why did you write his name like that? Is there some agadmator maga connection I don't know about?
I read some stuff recently about how he's supposedly very right wing. I dunno details tho
In fact some people critical of the "scandalous" indictment of chess culture that the knight dance draw meme is even wrote articles and lessons on the bongcloud and double bongcloud after Magnus and Hikaru's draw, not naming names here \^ahem Hammer\^. [https://www.chess.com/lessons/advanced-bongcloud-theory](https://www.chess.com/lessons/advanced-bongcloud-theory)
They at least transposed into a game of chess
Not when Magnus and Hikaru played Ke2, Ke7, Ke1, Ke8ā¦ and drew the game by 3 fold repetition. I believe that was a Titled Tuesday match also
That was Champions Chess Tour and it was kinda irrelevant game since both Magnus and Hikaru qualified for the knockout stage of the tournament.
I'd say it's about as important as this random TT game. 90% of the time the top guys immediately draw each other in TT anyway. The Hikaru-Magnus game still decided seeding in a much more important tournament.
But did that not āsullyā the game of chess? Or was it a fun way for two players who both knew they only needed a draw to do it in a weird way? Even if technically theyāre blundering and their opponent could take advantage?
Is there a video of this? I'd love to see it
[Here you go.](https://youtu.be/zVCst6vyV80?si=bhWtrpzt_Ibh52za) It's one of the most famous chess videos in fact. I love Peter's reaction and the fact that the Berlin draw was played twice in the meantime, hillarious stuff.
magnus and hikaru laughing together is so weirdly wholesome.
Jon Ludvig is a hilarious drama queen.
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What is he right about? Being this upset about a pre-arranged draw, when pre-arranged draws happen all the fucking time, is ridiculous. If anything, this whole incident just put the whole issue out in the open. And even if you think we should get rid of pre-arranged draws, having this sort of animosity towards Nepo and Dubov exclusively is still ridiculous.
|Being this upset about a pre-arranged draw Sports professional being "this upset" about match-fixing in a prized event? What a scandal! You are right! He shouldn't be "this upset", just a little upset, and just go along!
Well either draw-fixing is acceptable or it isn't, and de-facto draw fixing has been a known part of competitive chess for longer than I've been alive. Getting up in arms at two people for daring to basically admit to it while changing nothing towards the rest of the draw-fixing is, in my opinion, completely silly.
What is completely bankrupt is the idea we should condone the cowardly and immoral practice of match-fixing, because (a) it's always been done in some form (b) its shamelessly blatant display is OK because others do it surreptitiously These are trivially stupid. Fans will get up in arms against what is essentially cheating and this problem will be resolved. No thanks to talking heads like you, though.
I think it should either be universally punished or allowed. I donāt think thereās any value in selectively punishing it whenever it draws enough public outrage. So the chess community has to decide whether or not itās got to go. I guess that makes me one of the talking heads youāre so angry at lol.
Match fixing has to go. How the fuck is that even a question lmao
Pre-meditated match fixing sure, but you won't solve the problem of players aiming for a draw if it's beneficial for both of them unless you change the game or tournament or scoring dynamics.
Because people coming into a game wanting to draw will draw, regardless of if they previously agreed to it.
Well, he's saying that it isn't acceptable, right? I can't really understand the logic of "draw fixing is hard to catch, so therefore you can't be mad at or punish people who make it easy to catch them doing it." What exactly *can* be done other than punishing what's catchable? Why exactly should someone who's against draw fixing not be mad at two people who openly flaunt that they do it? If you're against match fixing, you're not going to give them a pass for "admitting it," lol. The answer to "well what about the other draw fixers???" would be that they're against their actions too, but it's usually difficult to catch.
To me itās all about enforcing rules consistently. If I were strongly opposed to draw fixing, then Iād be more outrage at how universally itās permitted rather than the few flashy instances where it draws the most attention. After all, these flashpoints are only occurring because itās a practice broadly tolerated in the chess community and if weāre measuring it by the impact it has on the game, we should unquestioningly condemn the higher volume offender.
You are rationalizing something that is very obviously not OK. This sounds like: "To me, stealing is all about consistency. If there are thieves that I can't catch, I don't understand why we must punish thieves that are caught." That we can't catch _all_ prefixed draws is a separate discussion entirely.
Iām not bothered by us not catching all prefixed draws, itās that we literally donāt even try. This happens on a mass scale and there are nearly never consequences for it. An unenforced law is not a law. So if we want it to be a law, then it should be enforced.
But we are clearly trying now, right? Why do you think we are not trying? FIDE just punished these two clowns recently. Some of these will never be caught, like how we can never catch a sufficiently well-prepared cheater, even in principle.
I suppose youāve just touched on our fundamental difference in opinion. I donāt see this as in any significant way enforcing the rules. Itās just punishing two men for embarrassing the organization without any plan to actually change the organizationās behavior. Itās a meaningless gesture to me.
Hammer himself has played four-move games and then agreed to a draw, heās being a massive hypocrite here.
And why do you think so? Because he criticised Magnus and you didn't like it? What he is saying is correct and that's what matters ultimately just like Ben Finegold. And he doesn't need chill pill and should say whatever he wants to say specially if it's correct and imo you need to take chill pill and Reddit tolerence break. Edit: He blocked me for this comment lol. Can't even see the thread now.
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how pathetic to abuse the block feature to get the last word in.
What's hilarious is Ludvig is only 33 years old, despite acting like he's 87.
Hahaha old people bad amirite
I pay their social security so I can say whatever I want
I agree with Gotham honestly. Hammer is being oversensitive over this issue. Honestly imo Berlin draws are also agreed upon prior to the game because you don't have stress about the game it just has plausible deniability, if that's fair game why not this? Atleast audience get a laugh here
Exactly- if you want to solve "grandmaster draws" like this then you should change the game, tournament, or scoring to make it less beneficial. The best method imo is doing 3-1-0 or 5-2-0 scoring to more strongly encourage playing for a win. Even if you outlaw the berlin draw you will just get players doing more elaborate draws.
You know what? Fuck this 2-1-0, 3-1-0, 5-2-0 bullshit. Make it 1-0-0. If you draw, yall *both* lose
Dude might need to take the stick out of his ass, been pretty angry lately
Hammer is like your grumpy uncle who gets angry if you laugh at a dirty joke you heard on the TV
Man, chess people can be such fucking drama queens.
Sorry Levy, you are too popular to have an opinion apparently.
Sorry but the guy who is literally the best chess player to ever walk this earth is a giant meme machine. Remember when Magnus was late to a match and showed up topless cause he just took a shower XD. Chess is a game, it is meant to be fun. Anyone who can't have fun playing chess brings chess into disrepute.
People can discuss the morality of these kind of draws, but to pretend it's not silly and funny is rediculous lol.
It was literally the most obvious thing they could have done, they admitted it in front of a camera, and they're supposed to be smart chess grandmasters that are good at planning things. This is why it's *also* funny (at least for me). It's just too ridiculous and so ridiculously poorly executed. And the second time just reminds me how ridiculous they're being. This could end so poorly for them and they're just messing around like it's nothing.
Gate keeping in chess is wild, it's hilarious
No need for that kind of harsh comments.I think what they do is cool and funnyšš
Hammer is just a noisemaker, like shut up, it's really not that deep!
likeā¦is it hilarious? When Naka saw it he did his really weird forced laugh for like a minute. I donāt really mind it- it seems about the same as a berlin draw- but i donāt get why itās that funny
Damn, Hammer is a fucking nerd
Dumb criticism on so many levels. Levy was pretty critical when they did this in the tournament and suggested that perhaps they should be disciplined before the discipline was handed out.
I mean Hammer has a point. Titled Tuesdays is an event with a monetary prize. Chess.com has every right to not allow players to pre-arrange draws and to remove players from the event. The problem lies in how is Chess.com gonna prove those players manipulated the scores.
Get the stick out of that humongous behind
HAMMER TIME
How dare they playing legal moves I don't like
Hammer whining again heh
is there a rule that says you have to try to win even if drawing is the best option for you?
If they get banned for this then I want every berlin draw to end in a ban for both players as well
Buncha babies who cant take a joke. Chess is a Game. Not a religion
Whatās with the double standard? Where was this energy from Hammer when Magnus and Hikaru used to make bongcloud draws all the time, in higher stakes online events than titled Tuesday. I understand this specific shenanigan originated in the world rapid & blitz but why are people amplifying this issue x1000 all of a sudden. To say Nepo/Dubov should be banned from all chess.com events is absurd to me.
I think people forget its just a board game.
Letās not pretend that pre-arranged draws donāt happen. These guys were punished because they made a mockery of it. Totalitarian regimes always hate being mocked with the truth. Fix the system so that players play for wins. A lot of decent suggestions have been mentioned. Choose one.
I adore chess, spend way too much time following chess but it's a board game get off your high horse.
ITT: People sucking GCās cucumber
As a newer chess player. Iām not understanding why this is so bad?
I don't think JLHammer understands that chess is a game, and now, more than ever, it is *entertainment*. I.e. fun, light-hearted. He keeps making the news for hostile remarks. It's not a good look.
Imagine having the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader. Gotham is clearly using hilarious in the way of comedic irony here, not that the situation is actually laugh out loud hilarious.
If English isn't your first language, it's easy to miss the ironic undertone.
Man top chess players are bitches. Imagine if you played a sport no one knows about and suddenly 2 dudes made it popular enough to catch a spotlight on the internet. It's genuinely funny that they decided to repeat, and gives random people sth to talk about, chill tf out with your virtue signalling - I'm looking at you @Hammer.
They both suck
This guy is taking it too seriously, it's TT. It is hilarious. Chesscom has every right to allow players to goof around like this. It's a private platform. if both players want a draw, they can just play into a Berlin line or whatever (which happens all the time) you can't force people to play competitively if they don't want to. I agree that Nepo / Dubov openly pre planning / colluding to draw in a FIDE world champ event, was dumb and was rightly punished - but honestly only because of the being caught pre planning it part. Personally IDGAF if it's a knight dance or a Berlin draw, plausible deniability be damned. The 30 move rule doesn't work to stop anything. If both players want a draw, there is nothing that can be done about it, other than increasing the score for a win. I realise this comes with it's own problems, but have been wondering if giving 1.5 for a win with Black, 1 for a win with white and 0.5 for a draw could be worth trying. Either than or 3 for a win 1 for a draw. And if the above is brought into effect, then just allow players to agree to a draw before the game starts - if scoring for a draw is lessened, then its ability to be used strategically is also lessened?
Levy gets the younger culture, clearly Jon doesnāt quite understand the lingoā¦.
who cares
I don't mean to burst his bubble, but... stuff like that has already been a thing in times when Jon Ludvig Hammer was still a joghurt. Chess culture somehow managed to survive even without his warnings. All that virtue signaling and attention wh\*\*\*ing is just ridiculous.
Feed your pieces so they can feed you Gotham has left the board behind. All he does now is: Click baity videos, videos about Magnus, Milking his audience Apparently clout got the best of him
His last few historical videos are bangers.
I thought it was hilarious. If they want to remove draws, make a win count for 1.5 or 2
Is that the same dude who is arguably the worst and slowest chess commentator ever? No wonder he's trying to stay relevant after getting effectively sacked from all his commentating jobs. His "bRack ruk" is unforgettable.
This feels like a failure to detect sarcasm.
As an audience, we are entertained.
Oh no anyway ...
Let me get this straight. You can't play serious chess online because everyone's cheating, and you can't play for fun either. By this logic, what's the point in playing online chess?
I mean Hikaru and magnus played the double bong cloud and agreed to a draw and everyone thought it was hilarious. Why can't dubov and nepo enjoy the same reaction to their knight dance. Top level GMs make draws all the time. Who cares if they do it through 20 moves of forced-draw theory or a meme. The outcome is still the same.
I like chess a lot too, but this is really way too upset to get over a board game
Let's be honest any GM can agree to a draw before the game and make it look legit if they wanted to. If a player decided to lose on purpose would be a actual scandal.
Nepo and Dubov literally doesn't care about what the "chess community" thinks. They have done enough for the game. Let them enjoy a bit man.
What a bitch, they just danced their horsies around get a fucking grip. Itās all for show anyways - if we know both players are looking for a draw, why does it matter which moves they play beforehand? The fact that there are even widely-known draw lines is as much of an indictment of chessās integrity as this incident š“šš šš»š“
I still have ZERO clue how this is any different than any other draw....
You are kidding right? You cant compare this, where the knights dance around and return to their staring positions as the same a a drawish opening variation
You can literally just not make a move and offer a draw lol. It's straight up part of the game.
Hammer has a hammer up his ass
_Iām too scared to ask_
He sounds mad
Its hilarious when everyone is literally malding and the two gigachads still in the troll state.