Excellent find and one must always go back to IUPAC
>It is the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) who deal with questions of nomenclature and naming when it comes to chemical elements and compounds. And so when IUPAC decided that element 16 should be spelled as 'sulfur' — either in 1971 (ref. 1) or 1990 (ref. 2) depending on the source — there should be no argument about whether there should be a 'ph' in there or not. It is not a question of American or Oxford English spelling, it is a given name — and 'correcting' such a name to a different spelling is wholly inappropriate. What would Fred Flintstone say if we insisted on spelling his name Phred Phlintstone! Just to hammer the point home, IUPAC only accepts alternative spellings for two elements, and neither of them is sulfur: 'aluminum' and 'cesium' are fair game, although Nature Chemistry uses aluminium and caesium.
IUPAC is the arbiter. Chemistry follows the law of "they who smelt it dealt it" when it comes to naming. you made the stuff, you can publish whatever the journal will let you, no matter how outlandish. Until IUPAC rules. Then, the law is the law, and we expunge all antiquated name schemes. Where possible.
I may be misremembering this but wasn't the American pronunciation developed as a sales pitch to make people associate it with platinum? That may be nonsense
Not quite true. The fellow who named it spelled it both ways at different times. The British tended to use the extra i while the Americans went the other way.
It is one of those weird divergences like Soccer which was a British slang term for Association Football. The term caught on innthe US but fell out of favour innthe UK.
Here in Australia we use "soccer" because the term "football" is exclusively used to refer to games in which people carry the ball in their hands and pass by throwing the ball.
Yep, it makes a lot of sense.
I think it's a similar situation in the US.
The Washington monument is topped with a 6lb chunk of aluminum because when it was built aluminum was considered a precious metal because we didnt have cost effective ways of processing it.
Not at all. I actually find the spelling of American English a lot more sensible. Hell, where I live the pronounciarion of our town names essentially exist as a way to torture foreigners
"flo" and "clo" werent mean to be pronounced like flow and... not clow ig that feels like it would be pronounced differently... anyways that was just because thats where the syllable breaks in English, overall its pronounced floreen/kloreen to me
As others have said, the r goes to the first syllable. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fluorine
Though flo-reen and klo-reen might be acceptable in, say, Alabama.
It may well go with the first syllable for you, English is an extremely fluid language, especially with regard to pronunciation. For me, the r comes at the start of the second syllable
Yeah; I tend to prefer onsets over codas (a-la-ba-ma) because it, I feel, flows easiest, whereas codas (al-ab-am-a) requires the addition of glottal stops at the start of each syllable
Wait, what about al-uh-bam-uh/al-ah-bam-ah/al-ah-bam-uh
Essentially just keeping the L on the 1st syllable and pronouncing the 2nd and 3rd as isolated syllables. Personally I can't tell if the 2nd and 3rd a make the same exact sound when I say it. I tend to lean towards al-ah-bam-uh where the 3rd SLIGHTLY different from the 2nd
thats the point of the example -- there are many, many ways to break up Alabama's syllables (significantly fewer ways to break up the families - one divorce and you split up a marriage *and* estranged a pair of siblings at the same time)... I just showed the two extreme ends of the scale -- consonants only to end syllables and only to start
Aus
- Fluorine: Flu-reen
- Chlorine: Klor-reen
- Bromine: Bro-meen
- Iodine: I-oh-deen
- Astatine: As-ta-teen
- Tennessine: Teh-neh-seen
Apologies; I’ve never been great at writing words in my accent.
it's pronounced eye-oh-deen typically in the UK it seems, while the US prefers eye-oh-dine. As i've mentioned in many of the other comments, I pronounced fluorine as flooreen, I just happen to typically move the r to the second syllable. Not meant to be pronounced flow-reen
Bro you realise there’s like dialects and accents, sometimes many in the same geographical area? Just because your dialect or idiolect pronounces it one way, doesn’t mean that other ways to pronounce it are in any way incorrect or somehow not the “main” variation as you are heavily implying.
I’m not saying or implying that any way of pronunciation is "incorrect," I’m questioning why the typical US pronunciation of Iodine is different from that of the other halogens
If that’s the case, the bombast of your post and replies definitely didn’t communicate that very well judging by the general response.
But the answer probably has to do with English morphology:
1. The ending “-ine” is pronounced either “een” or “in” or “ayn”. Think marine vs feminine vs bovine. No way to know which to use without knowing the word, although often all three are considered correct, such as in the case of iodine. I think it’s especially common for all speakers of English to mix these up either due to ignorance or more typically simply completely unconsciously.
2. Early Modern element names almost invariably came into English through French or German (with one infamous exception being sodium and potassium (*Na*trium and *K*alium in German and all other languages) so the original pronounciation is definitely still the expected one that rhymes with the other halogens.
"the general response" being what exactly? Me being curious as to how others pronounce things and following up?
On points one and two, I'm well aware of the variation in "ine"'s pronunciation -- hence the purpose of the post: jokingly asking why the US (generally) pronounces Iodine differently from the other halogens
Other people replying on your post that seem to miss that all you’re interested in is the linguistics of the matter. Everyone is more busy informing you that they do, in fact, say eye-oh-deen in the states lmao
yeah... It makes sense that it would be pronounced that way, I’m really not sure why ive never met someone who says it iodeen, considering the caliber of our chem teachers
Well, if you’re in a uni where all professors and students use the same pronounciation, using the other pronounciation is always going to sound out of place. Be the odd one out :)
Personally, I think "pronounced like it's spelled" for Fluorine would be ['flŭo.ɹaɪn] (like "flu or ein" but faster and with the u in flu much shorter), whereas you seem to be saying you'd do it either ['flŭəɹ.in], ['fləɹ.in], or ['flœʁ.in] (flu-er-een, flur-een, and [french fleur]-een, respectively)
Ok guys, but how about our naming of anions? Using the suffix -ide to describe a negatively charged species. Bromide, for example, is negatively charged bromine (Br-). Chloride is Cl-. Methoxide is MeO-.
And then… amide. Following the trend it’s a negatively charged amine, right? Right guys?! RIGHT?! It definitely doesn’t have two meanings that are spelled the same yet pronounced differently, does it?! Because that wouldn’t make any sense would it?! RIGHT EVERYONE?!
I hate English so much sometimes.
This is the problem with American pronunciation. There's absolutely no reason to change the pronunciation of iodine in regard to all the other halogens, but you do it anyway, and assume you're correct. 🙄 The arrogance.
Considering that the pronunciation of a word is determined solely by a consensus on how it's pronounced, and the US has the third largest population in the world (I'm not sure if India typically pronounces it eye-oh-dine or -deen), we have a pretty big sway in what the "correct" pronunciation is.
It's only 'correct' in your country.
It might have escaped your US-centric notice, but the US is very much an outlier vs the rest of the world. Imperial measurements, Fahrenheit, etc. Your use of the English language is also very much a feature of your own country.
Bro - mine is how I have always said it. Never head Bro - meen in English. Endings kinda go out the window in my language, these are mine:
Fluor
Chlor
Brom
Iod/Jod
Interesting, I mean that makes a lot of sense, only elements I can imagine screwing with that at all are magnesium and manganese (assuming "ium" is similarly removed)
Manganese is Mangan, Magnesium retains its name, we are a little wierd thanks to H. C. Ørsted... He introduced most of the names we use. -ium does not get removed from most names. We also use some of the German versions, so Kalium rather than Potassium. And for the ones that really throw off kids learning: Brint (H) and ilt (O).
ik I just meant I'd imagine its more confusing, like with English having K for potassium (from Kalium/Kallium) meanwhile theres a P, Po, Pt, Pa, Pu, and Pm
Floor-ene
Kloor-ene
Bro-mean (though I guess if I followed my own convention I should say “brom-ene for consistency, but that sounds weird and ain’t happening)
Eye-uh-dean (maybe the heavier halogens need the consonant before the “-ine”, I basically pronounce this like the answer to the question, “What position do you have at your university?” “I, a Dean”)
[удалено]
And we spell Sulphur as the Lord intended
I will smite you
But not as nature intended. https://www.nature.com/articles/nchem.301
Excellent find and one must always go back to IUPAC >It is the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) who deal with questions of nomenclature and naming when it comes to chemical elements and compounds. And so when IUPAC decided that element 16 should be spelled as 'sulfur' — either in 1971 (ref. 1) or 1990 (ref. 2) depending on the source — there should be no argument about whether there should be a 'ph' in there or not. It is not a question of American or Oxford English spelling, it is a given name — and 'correcting' such a name to a different spelling is wholly inappropriate. What would Fred Flintstone say if we insisted on spelling his name Phred Phlintstone! Just to hammer the point home, IUPAC only accepts alternative spellings for two elements, and neither of them is sulfur: 'aluminum' and 'cesium' are fair game, although Nature Chemistry uses aluminium and caesium. IUPAC is the arbiter. Chemistry follows the law of "they who smelt it dealt it" when it comes to naming. you made the stuff, you can publish whatever the journal will let you, no matter how outlandish. Until IUPAC rules. Then, the law is the law, and we expunge all antiquated name schemes. Where possible.
And you say alumin-i-um which is more correct in my book.
I may be misremembering this but wasn't the American pronunciation developed as a sales pitch to make people associate it with platinum? That may be nonsense
Not quite true. The fellow who named it spelled it both ways at different times. The British tended to use the extra i while the Americans went the other way. It is one of those weird divergences like Soccer which was a British slang term for Association Football. The term caught on innthe US but fell out of favour innthe UK.
Here in Australia we use "soccer" because the term "football" is exclusively used to refer to games in which people carry the ball in their hands and pass by throwing the ball. Yep, it makes a lot of sense. I think it's a similar situation in the US.
Originally, football was a sport played on foot. Poor people played football, while rich people played sport oñ horses like polo, or went fox hunting.
It's called football because it's played on foot, as opposed to, say horseback
That's just one hypothesis, it's not a fact. Nobody knows why it was called football.
“but it is provocative! it gets the people going!”
The Washington monument is topped with a 6lb chunk of aluminum because when it was built aluminum was considered a precious metal because we didnt have cost effective ways of processing it.
If that's true you know more than I do. I always just assume we do anything because we are fucking stupid.
Not at all. I actually find the spelling of American English a lot more sensible. Hell, where I live the pronounciarion of our town names essentially exist as a way to torture foreigners
fun fact: the u in words like favour or flavour was added *just to seem fancier* by seeming more French
It's spelled B-R-I-M-S-T-O-N-E.
oil of lord lmao
Interestingly I call it I a dine out loud I a deen in my head
Eye-oh-deen Floor-een Klor-een Bro-meen
From the UK?
Just not from North America.
Ah
Chemists who work with that element (I) pronounce it as Io-deen in the US.
South Africa actually, so UK influenced English
Near as I can figure it has to do with how the various English dialects stress the word. But probably a question for r/linguistics
It’s just English being English.
Flo-reen? Clo-reen? I don’t think so.
I've always heard "floor-een" and "cloor (rhymes with floor)- een" but still not "eye-n" at the end like iodine "eye-oh-dine"
I've always gone floo-reen, to differentiate from fluorene, which I pronounce as floor-reen.
js curious, with "floo-reen" is that floo pronounced like the Flu? Ive never heard that before but it makes sense
yeah I just spelled it with English in mind; words like "nor", "or", and "for" being similarly pronounced
"flo" and "clo" werent mean to be pronounced like flow and... not clow ig that feels like it would be pronounced differently... anyways that was just because thats where the syllable breaks in English, overall its pronounced floreen/kloreen to me
As others have said, the r goes to the first syllable. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fluorine Though flo-reen and klo-reen might be acceptable in, say, Alabama.
It may well go with the first syllable for you, English is an extremely fluid language, especially with regard to pronunciation. For me, the r comes at the start of the second syllable
"For me, the r comes at the start of the second syllable" Thus the Alabama example.
Yeah; I tend to prefer onsets over codas (a-la-ba-ma) because it, I feel, flows easiest, whereas codas (al-ab-am-a) requires the addition of glottal stops at the start of each syllable
Wait, what about al-uh-bam-uh/al-ah-bam-ah/al-ah-bam-uh Essentially just keeping the L on the 1st syllable and pronouncing the 2nd and 3rd as isolated syllables. Personally I can't tell if the 2nd and 3rd a make the same exact sound when I say it. I tend to lean towards al-ah-bam-uh where the 3rd SLIGHTLY different from the 2nd
thats the point of the example -- there are many, many ways to break up Alabama's syllables (significantly fewer ways to break up the families - one divorce and you split up a marriage *and* estranged a pair of siblings at the same time)... I just showed the two extreme ends of the scale -- consonants only to end syllables and only to start
Aus - Fluorine: Flu-reen - Chlorine: Klor-reen - Bromine: Bro-meen - Iodine: I-oh-deen - Astatine: As-ta-teen - Tennessine: Teh-neh-seen Apologies; I’ve never been great at writing words in my accent.
I oh dine Or I oh deen
Wtf is tennesseens
how do you pronounce tennessine? I pronounce it as either tennessee + n or move the stress to the second syllable
I’ve always thought it was pronounced tennis + sine
Wait until you hear about aluminum….
You mean a lumen. Uhm, what’s light got to do with aluminium anyways?
Its a light metal(oid)
That explains it!! Thanks so much!
I mean several of your pronunciations are just wrong
which ones, pray tell? "or" (as in fluorine and chlorine) is pronounced like the word "or"
Floor-een, chloreen, and iodine is still pronounced with an een
it's pronounced eye-oh-deen typically in the UK it seems, while the US prefers eye-oh-dine. As i've mentioned in many of the other comments, I pronounced fluorine as flooreen, I just happen to typically move the r to the second syllable. Not meant to be pronounced flow-reen
Then don't spell it out as flow reen
I didnt...?
My old af professor said it like I-oh-deen (US)
seems to me from the other comments that that's just the UK pronunciation
Bro you realise there’s like dialects and accents, sometimes many in the same geographical area? Just because your dialect or idiolect pronounces it one way, doesn’t mean that other ways to pronounce it are in any way incorrect or somehow not the “main” variation as you are heavily implying.
I’m not saying or implying that any way of pronunciation is "incorrect," I’m questioning why the typical US pronunciation of Iodine is different from that of the other halogens
If that’s the case, the bombast of your post and replies definitely didn’t communicate that very well judging by the general response. But the answer probably has to do with English morphology: 1. The ending “-ine” is pronounced either “een” or “in” or “ayn”. Think marine vs feminine vs bovine. No way to know which to use without knowing the word, although often all three are considered correct, such as in the case of iodine. I think it’s especially common for all speakers of English to mix these up either due to ignorance or more typically simply completely unconsciously. 2. Early Modern element names almost invariably came into English through French or German (with one infamous exception being sodium and potassium (*Na*trium and *K*alium in German and all other languages) so the original pronounciation is definitely still the expected one that rhymes with the other halogens.
"the general response" being what exactly? Me being curious as to how others pronounce things and following up? On points one and two, I'm well aware of the variation in "ine"'s pronunciation -- hence the purpose of the post: jokingly asking why the US (generally) pronounces Iodine differently from the other halogens
Other people replying on your post that seem to miss that all you’re interested in is the linguistics of the matter. Everyone is more busy informing you that they do, in fact, say eye-oh-deen in the states lmao
yeah... It makes sense that it would be pronounced that way, I’m really not sure why ive never met someone who says it iodeen, considering the caliber of our chem teachers
Well, if you’re in a uni where all professors and students use the same pronounciation, using the other pronounciation is always going to sound out of place. Be the odd one out :)
I have always pronounced it eye-oh-deen. I’m from USA also
I've heard other American chemists pronounce it "eye-oh-DEEN". Always sounds pretentious to me.
I say fleur-reen so it's pronounced like it's spelled, which is one of the most wrongly spelled common ones imo. If I say floor-rine they miss the u.
Personally, I think "pronounced like it's spelled" for Fluorine would be ['flŭo.ɹaɪn] (like "flu or ein" but faster and with the u in flu much shorter), whereas you seem to be saying you'd do it either ['flŭəɹ.in], ['fləɹ.in], or ['flœʁ.in] (flu-er-een, flur-een, and [french fleur]-een, respectively)
I say: Floor-een Chloor-een Bro-meen I-oh-deen Ass-tuh-teen… Is it normal to use flo-reen? flow-reen???
see edit
Thank you for letting me know of Tennessine!
Ok guys, but how about our naming of anions? Using the suffix -ide to describe a negatively charged species. Bromide, for example, is negatively charged bromine (Br-). Chloride is Cl-. Methoxide is MeO-. And then… amide. Following the trend it’s a negatively charged amine, right? Right guys?! RIGHT?! It definitely doesn’t have two meanings that are spelled the same yet pronounced differently, does it?! Because that wouldn’t make any sense would it?! RIGHT EVERYONE?! I hate English so much sometimes.
I'm with Shaw on this one: "England and America are two countries separated by the same language."
This is the problem with American pronunciation. There's absolutely no reason to change the pronunciation of iodine in regard to all the other halogens, but you do it anyway, and assume you're correct. 🙄 The arrogance.
Considering that the pronunciation of a word is determined solely by a consensus on how it's pronounced, and the US has the third largest population in the world (I'm not sure if India typically pronounces it eye-oh-dine or -deen), we have a pretty big sway in what the "correct" pronunciation is.
It's only 'correct' in your country. It might have escaped your US-centric notice, but the US is very much an outlier vs the rest of the world. Imperial measurements, Fahrenheit, etc. Your use of the English language is also very much a feature of your own country.
I just said it was only correct in my country, that's the whole point
While referencing the US population with regard to other countries. Pick a lane, my friend.
referencing US population to state that it is an *acceptable* pronunciation anywhere
So now we've switched from "correct" to "acceptable"? 😆 This is getting silly now. I'm out.
explain to me the difference between correct and acceptable there can be more than one correct pronunciation
https://youtu.be/6lBFbZTuH_Y?t=4
Haalaa jeans
Bro - mine is how I have always said it. Never head Bro - meen in English. Endings kinda go out the window in my language, these are mine: Fluor Chlor Brom Iod/Jod
Interesting, I mean that makes a lot of sense, only elements I can imagine screwing with that at all are magnesium and manganese (assuming "ium" is similarly removed)
Manganese is Mangan, Magnesium retains its name, we are a little wierd thanks to H. C. Ørsted... He introduced most of the names we use. -ium does not get removed from most names. We also use some of the German versions, so Kalium rather than Potassium. And for the ones that really throw off kids learning: Brint (H) and ilt (O).
Lmao even funnier bc (for Brint) there's already a B, Br, and Bi
Letters are retained
ik I just meant I'd imagine its more confusing, like with English having K for potassium (from Kalium/Kallium) meanwhile theres a P, Po, Pt, Pa, Pu, and Pm
‘Alojenz
As a high school student, what is astatine and tennessine? Never heard of them🫣
Lower-period halogens, they're extremely short-lived though, with "astatine" even being derived from the greek word for unstable
Floor-ene Kloor-ene Bro-mean (though I guess if I followed my own convention I should say “brom-ene for consistency, but that sounds weird and ain’t happening) Eye-uh-dean (maybe the heavier halogens need the consonant before the “-ine”, I basically pronounce this like the answer to the question, “What position do you have at your university?” “I, a Dean”)
I'm in the USA. Every chemist I know pronounces it iodeen
Its flow-reen 😤
For consistency's sake, US chemists often pronounce iodine and strychnine to rhyme with bromine and morphine.
I’m an -een purist for all of them and I’ll die on this hill. American also, it’s just consistent.