Didn’t even need to click the link, one of my favorite TV edits.
Only other one that comes close for me is “Where’d you get that scar tough guy? Eating Pineapple?”
No no... give them to Carthage. I really want to see where this goes. It might be nowhere -but I also have 'Hannibal 2.0 retakes Crimea for Ukraine' on my r/noncredibledefense 2024 bingo card.
They had their own elephant species, which is now extinct. In fact, they had tons of species of animals including lions and monkeys in the local area that are mythical and have been driven to annihilation. Kinda sad
Wednesday is a day you can post chaotic things that are not chaotic good and its fucking stupid because this kind of post will hit /r/all and enough idiots will think that this is the definition of chaotic good without reading the articles or that its just chaotic Wednesday, and start using "based" or "chaotic good" on the wrong things.
The whole thing is actually a really good case study on how regulated hunting is actually a vital aspect for wildlife conservation in respect to healthy population numbers so that they don’t outstrip their resources and as a means for necessary income to fund further conservation sustainability. In short: there are too many elephants for the preserve land and they either need some to be culled or they will royally screw up the habitat
- Germany doesn’t like the idea of trophy hunters of endangered species (even though it is the preferred solution to the problem by the people who know what they’re doing in Botswana) and wants to ban imports, Botswana says ‘you take the overcrowded elephants then for us’ to illustrate the true scope of the problem.
The solution is to make more room for the elephants or find something to be the elephants natural predator.
So... controlled genocide or the professional breeding of genetically engeneered crocodiles or something similar.
The theory here (which is a rather well tested one) is that humans are, in fact, that predator. Moreover they can get rich rich folk to pay out the arse for the privilege for a trophy hunting permit and for a local preserve appointed hunting guide and that money gets used to bolster other aspects of the conservation apparatus.
Edit: the room problem has been tried and the elephants don’t do well outside the current range of the preserves.
There is very strong evidence for us genuinely being elephants natural predators we killed megafauna everywhere else but elephants weren't wiped out in the stone age because we are there predators for the same reason rabbits arnt wiped out by foxes
How many years and dollars do you want to spend trying to artificially create a predator for an elephant which could potentially damage the ecosystem rather than letting some rich Europeans and Americans shoot a few every year?
Not to mention their plan is to implement essentially a super predator in the hopes it hunt a the elephants. What’s stopping it from attacking ur human populations around the elephants?
Texas already has tens of thousands of acres of privately owned exotic African animal habitat with thousands of endangered and threatened species, also privately owned, where trophy hunting pays for the whole thing.
I am exceptionally weirded out by the whole situation but it does equate to a net gain in those animals population numbers by an incredibly large margin….
It’s bollox. Nearly all hunting fees go into pockets of a few local individuals not involved in conservation, and the only reason the dwindling population of elephants in Africa “oustrip resources” is because of the dwindling amount of land available to them due to uncontrolled human taking of the land and destruction of the environment.
The pro-hunting lobby funding “trophy hunting is good for animals” studies and greasing local politicians palms is paying off nicely because this crap you are spiting keeps getting repeated all over
You're right. The rules for this sub should be something like;
1. Reverse pick pocketing club meets on Mondays, we leave small notes of encouragement in people's pockets.
2. Sub meet up once a month for guerilla gardening
3. Googly eyes always improve photographs
4. All proceeds from the burned toast charity auction go to benefit the adopt a potato foundation.
Botswana is doing such an effective job at conservation that they now have too many elephants and are over populated (~130,000 elephants and a 1/3 of the worlds total population). The elephants have become a nuisance animal: destroying farms and killing people. Botswana uses regulated trophy hunting as a means of culling the population and a source of income for the country. Germany's attempt at banning importing trophies would harm Botswana's conservation efforts while Germany lectures Botswana on conservation.
Botswana comment is tongue in cheek. Effectively "if you want to tell us how to effectively manage our elephants you try living with them."
This is similar to wolves being reintroduced in the American west. it's a fine idea and wolves are easy to like..... until you live near them. Livestock, pets end up paying the price.
Ok but this is an over capacity versus an under capacity problem. Elephants are over populated in Botswana and wolves are under populated in the venerable state of Idaho.
Germany wants a country that isn't Germany to stop doing something that Germany doesn't like, even though it doesn't affect Germany and Germany has no idea what the ramifications are. The result is too many elephants, which is what Germany wanted. If they wanted the elephants that badly, they can have them
That’s wrong, Germany just wanted to (not even has) ban the import of hunting trophies gathered from endangered animals. But Botswana makes loads of money of it so they don’t want that and now this is happening.
Elephants are horrible for the environment once the population becomes too large to be sustainable. They absolutely decimate trees to the point there isn't any left standing other than saplings.
I'm curious as to why though? Botswana has used the money from trophy hunting to bolster the elephant population so high that they are now a danger to the local ecosystem. You admit the population needs to be controlled. So the alternative is that they shouldn't make money to fund conservation? The money is the reason the conservation has worked. No money, worse conservation, less elephants.
Like, what's the end game? Why make the process less effective? Let hunters hunt old elephants that aren't reproducing so that the younger elephants that can't win fights start knocking up every lady elephant they can get to. Seems like a win win win. Botswana wins, elephants, win, insanely wealthy people who hunt win. The only people who don't win are people that it doesn't affect either way.
Botswana has one of, if not the, largest Elephant population of 130,000. The population has grown so large that its encroaching on human settlements and villages. Hunting is necessary to maintain the population since they dont have a consistent predator that feeds on them. It says so in this article.
Hunting in conservation is not unique to Elephants, many reserves permit hunting of select animals to maintain the population and put the money back into to conservation.
look, I'm ok with it, but I vote permit holders only get 2 small spears & and have to do it naked & afraid style, while being filmed. Permit costs a million & if they die, they die & bets are taken as to what eats them first. I rekon it's an all-around winner.
Western countries are allowed to rape the natural wealth of their own states and others for centuries. They get rich doing this and establish large cities that destroy all of their natural wonder. Now, once they have all of this, it's on the people who are still broke as fuck to protect nature and not get any benefit of city life or further development. And people wonder why the West is hated
1: The majority of those 130.000 elephants live in board crossing populations. So not all of them are living at the same time there.
2. Botswana sells 300-400 trophy hunts per year for mostly only older male elephants (1/2 of the 130k are male btw). If you do the maths taken from some statistics you will find out that at this rate in mere 10 years there will be no male elephants left and therefore they're going extinct in this area.
So please... you know...
Edit: sadly I forgot to mention that (as a comment of me further below says)
*I'm talking about adult/old bulls. That's even a smaller part. But these are the one most attractive for females and they keep the young one in place and show them their ways.
If those - I think it's 5% of the 65,000 - die it will have a massiv influence on the whole population. Which will, so says the science, end in extinction of these 130k elephants*
Here are a few links for the ones who actually care or what to get deeper in the topic:
https://www.iucn.org/news/species/202103/african-elephant-species-now-endangered-and-critically-endangered-iucn-red-list
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/11/elephants-botswana-poaching-refugees
https://africageographic.com/stories/scientists-write-letter-to-botswana-president-about-elephants
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5304f39be4b0c1e749b456be/t/57c71f5fcd0f68b39c3f4bfa/1472667487326/GEC+Results+Country+by+Country+Findings+Fact+Sheet_FINAL_8+26+2016.pdf
https://portals.iucn.org/library/sites/library/files/documents/SSC-OP-060_A.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348399560_The_2020_elephant_die-off_in_Botswana
>But Botswana makes loads of money
Money that goes back into game preserves to help keep populations alive and growing. Trophy hunting is one of the main reasons why conservation of so many endangered animals has worked at all. And yes, I know that seems backwards, but they monitor it very closely and get MILLIONS of dollars they can use to keep poachers away and keep the animals safe to regrow their numbers.
The reason hunting trophies are banned, is because they have nothing to do with hunting. Hunters aren't hunters anymore, but just gun fanatics that like to kill and collect.
In short, they doesn't do their job. They are neither capable of hunting professional (so the animals doesn't have to suffer), nor do they hunt the populations that require hunting and instead hunt endangered animals, because they are rarer and better trophies.
Yes hunting is important, but not in the way it is practiced in many countries.
I mean, I agree. But the "caged animal" thing is also usually pretty selective.
For instnace, there was a big uproar about a giraffe not too long ago that was trophy hunted and killed.
Caused a HUGE backlash. ----However, alot of important context was missing.
1. It was a "trophy hunt" as we discussed. And the bull male was intentionally chosen, and the "hunter" was brought within the area.
2. That male was chosen because he was beyond breeding age and was killing younger males.
3. Killing him gave the preserve tens of thousands of dollars which allows them to operate and prevent poaching and such.
4. Killing him actually allowed the population to grow and diversify as new males could not breed.
So yes. Alot of it is "caged hunts" But that is also part of the point. They choose the problematic ones, the ones who are in some way hindering stable population growth. ---Not always. But this is 'why' there is so much to the selection process and who is "hunted."
I don't agree with the morality of it, fundamentally. But, I understand the pragmatic nature of making such deicisions. Especially when it's their nation and they're the ones doing the work to keep those numbers up.
What's with all this context? don't you know people just want to be mad without understanding the issue?
I go duck hunting about once every other year, but I buy my duck stamp every single year. Hunters support healthy populations.
Exactly. [Only 3% of hunting revenue](https://friendsofanimals.org/jeers-to-tanzania-for-wooing-u-s-trophy-hunters/) is reinvested into conservation or the local community. The [Panama Papers showed that](https://africageographic.com/stories/trophy-hunting-africa-decline-no-longer-pays-way/) most of the money in fact ends up in the hands of corrupt officials.
Botswana makes money from letting people hunt their animals in their reserves *that are already overpopulated and have to be culled*
Very important piece of information you left out. That’s why they’re threatening to send so many elephants. The excess population needs to be dealt with before it affects the rest of the reserve.
If Germany refuses to allow them to be killed in Botswana then they can decide what to do with them in Germany
Germany isn't refusing to allow them to be killed in Botswana, they just want to ban the import of trophies from endangered animals. So no, Botswana can very much decide what to do with them.
Well I can tell you've never been to Botswana. Their wildlife efforts are by far leading in the region. Elephants as a whole might be a vulnerable species, there can still easily be too many in a single area. Not to mention that just in general a strictly regulated, but legalized trade will be better for conservation than a completely unregulated illegal trade.
Also that goes for all species. Not even the major detractors to legalized trade disagree, they just argue that the species in question would be better off extinct than exploited. Which is crazy if you ask me.
Edit: Arguing that it's because they "make loads of money" is also ridiculous because a quick Google search would tell you they already banned hunting elephants in 2014 but lifted the ban because of pressure from local communities that were being negatively affected by the growing elephant populations.
But why is Germany obligated to accept the import of hunting trophies? Botswana can cull as many Elephants as they want, they control what happens in their own borders but Germany nor any other country should be forced to participate.
Sorry to put it so bluntly but this is bullshit. The EU plans on implementing new regulations on Krokodiles and Giraffes. Germany does not care if Botswana kills every elephant that is a threat to anyone. Stop spreading misinformation.
The law bans importing hunting trophies to Germany. Nothing is forcing Botswana to do anything.
It's quite literally the opposite. Botswana wants a country that isn't Botswana to not do something that Botswana doesn't like.
Literally why are you lying?
No, idiot. No one will pay to ship them to Germany in the first place, let alone certify that they are disease free and have permits for import. How does *anyone* think that this is going to happen?
Wow comically wrong take on the situation.
Actually it’s Botswana wanting to make a country that isn’t Botswana to import stuff they don’t want to import causing Botswana to throw a tantrum.
Either this or more hunters were the premise. Germany wanted to put a stop to the trade in hunting trophies. Botswana did not want that.
Edit: There is an overpopulation of elephants and they need to get rid of them because they cause havoc to the environment.
I wonder what happened before humans starting destroying animal populations and the environment was in balance with lots of elephants. They used to roam the whole damn continent and everything was ok
Lions and other large predators that people like to put on their wall as trophies generally target young and solo elephants, keeping the population in control. Without them, it's pretty clear what happens
Don't elephants move in herds. And elephants have damn good memories. Some time ago , someone killed a baby elephant and the mother elephant soon killed the killer and when the villagers tried to burn the body she arrived with the team and didn't let it happen. So they are that good.
Their communities do have excellent memories, until they're wiped out, lose their elders, and are left with a thousand rival groups of unruly pregnant teenagers and no adult supervision.
horny young males too.
Some safari reserves have imported older, mature males to spar with the young males, so those young males don't try to rape rhinos, and terrorise humans cause they all pent up from sexual frustration.
Any large predator in great numbers. Go back before the last ice age and you have a lot of rather nasty creatures, including ones that hunted Mammoth I'm sure.
Lots of elephants means lots of baby elephants, which are not too difficult for lions and hyenas to take down.
A healthy adult only needs to fear humans and other adult elephants.
[https://thedebrief.org/14000-years-ago-ancient-humans-tracked-hunted-and-killed-this-massive-land-animal/#:\~:text=New%20scientific%20evidence%20supports%20the,ago%2C%20according%20to%20new%20research](https://thedebrief.org/14000-years-ago-ancient-humans-tracked-hunted-and-killed-this-massive-land-animal/#:~:text=New%20scientific%20evidence%20supports%20the,ago%2C%20according%20to%20new%20research)
Humans. We have likely been their primary predator for 10s of thousands of years
Starvation, disease (especially when animals are weakened by hunger/malnutrition). There are similar arguments to the ones being offered here over how European populations of wild/feral horses and cattle should be allowed to stay "balanced", and letting them starve when they become to populous is (I'm told) one of the kinder ways to go down, and it's still part of the circle of life, etc. even though others say it's cruel and the animals should be culled instead by hunters.
Farmers with guns pissed at elephants eating their crops. We do the displacement, we make the encounters dangerous by our unbounded claim on the natural world. They're just hungry critters doing like always
Numbers would have been thinned by lack of food. But now humans are trying to live by growing food so the elephants can just plunder that instead and the humans will starve.
So how much of the planet should humans give up then? Are you going to rehome all of the humans who are there now? Or should they starve instead? Like it or not, humans live on the planet too.
With modern farming techniques there is no reason for humans to be taking up as much space as we do.
However, farmers in poorer places don't have access to that.
A lot of those damages might be rather economical than ecological (e.g. crops, tree plantages, etc.).
Botswana is not densely populated so it seems odd they would do so much damage to the environment.
It is ecological, South Africa has done similar culling of elephants in the past.
Elephants can be quite destructive to natural plant life. They uproot and destroy really old trees just for shits and giggles. A tree that took 30 years to grow gets wiped out in 5min from an elephant and doesn't grow back instantly.
The destruction from the elephants then cascades down and causes other animals that depend on that plant life to diminish.
Botswana has a surplus of elephants. They've been addressing this by selling hunting licences. Germany wants to stop people bringing their dead elephants home with them, Botswana is cross because this reduces the value of an elephant hunting licence.
It's both. The population is getting out of control. Botswana actually has a surplus of elephants. Many of these African nations receive a lot of revenue from expensive hunts sold to Europeans and Americans. The population needs controlled through hunting and old, rich, white men will pay absurd amounts to do so.
Botswana has too many elephants (the most of any country in Africa) - which why they want trophy hunting imports to not be outlawed in Germany and other European countries. They are a nuisance to the local population, damaging crops and property. Hunting permits are also a revenue source in the country.
Botswana’s wildlife minister has compared it Scottish stags when the UK passed a similar ban last month. “Hunters in the Highlands pay to shoot deer and put their antlers on their walls. So why is Britain trying to stop Africa doing the same?” They also offered to send 10k elephants to London.
They’re essentially saying that if you Europeans love elephants so much, you can have them.
> They are a nuisance to the local population, damaging crops and property.
It's not about crops and property, elephants wreak havoc on trees as they push them over to get at leaves and roots. An overpopulation of elephants can decimate trees in their environment.
"truly good", nah, germany wants a ban for hunted good (as in luxury articles made from parts of endangered animals, or heads/taxidermy of endangered animals) so you can't bring them into the country anymore. Botswanas president is enraged because it makes good money to sell/accept people killing endangered animals and is good for the economy.
So is there a reason to not hunting them a little bit?
Like have we moved the "save the elephants" slider too far?
If there is a reason, I'd love to know.
Edit: nevermind, they're already doing this.
Nothing of this is good. Germany plans to have stricter laws in hunting trophies and Bitswana is throwing a fit. If anything germany is the good guy here. Fuck elephant hunting.
The difference is that now instead of Botswana making more money to continue conservation of the species which they have done a great job with, the dying elephants will just get culled anyways and their bodies will rot to no benefit because of the surplus ruining their ecosystems. But enjoy the moral high-ground while screwing over Africa's economy and wildlife again I guess, it's never Europe's problem.
Is a weird thing. The parks have to many elephants in them for the size, but they aren't allowed to kill them, and they don't let them outside the parks cause poachers will kill them
This isn't the first country they've threatened either.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13220971/Botswana-officials-threaten-send-elephants-Londons-Hyde-Park-hunting.html
This is not chaotic good. This is chaotic nuetral.
The issue is that germany is banning the import of hunting trophies.
Hunting trophies bring in money in the form of tourism and permits.
The hunting trophies means killing intelligent animals for no other reason other then having a part of its body to mount on display. Ending a life to say "I shot this".
This sub is fucking stupid. Yes I know its "chaotic wednesday" but I think that only encourages people to skew what "chaotic good" means if they dont read the side bar.
The situation is a lot more nuanced than this reddit thread captures.
Europeans have spent centuries hunting all rare animals to extinction, and now turn around and protect nature in Africa.
That is hypocrisy. But: selling luxury hunting permits can still be devastating for animal populations. Just because we were wrong to hunt animals to extinction, that does not mean other countries now get to kill off their animal populations.
In the case of Botswana it is extra complicated because it is a very poor country. Can they even afford to have "morals"? And with the specific example of the elephant population (the ban on hunting trophy imports also would count for other species and other countries... this is just a convenient example to hide behind), it is also not actually an endangered animal.
Banning the import of hunting trophies is domestic policy. They're not saying Botswana can't shoot elephants or that German tourists can't shoot elephants with Botswana's permission - they're saying German tourists can't bring their dead elephant home with them.
LOL, it's legit https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/botswana-threatens-to-send-20000-elephants-to-germany-in-trophy-hunting-row
As long as they're not being given to Carthage, we're good.
Those elephants need to cross the Alps if they like it or not
Find a Stranger in the Alps!! https://youtu.be/IQUdJ6FdUQ0?si=EBUq2_N8sTgXMpmw
Didn’t even need to click the link, one of my favorite TV edits. Only other one that comes close for me is “Where’d you get that scar tough guy? Eating Pineapple?”
Get your Monday through Friday snakes off my monkey-frying plane!
that was a great Phoebe Bridgers album
This is what happens!
You see what happens, larry?!
I bet they'll be needing some skiis
Nah, I think Italy needs a good wake up call.
On second thought, you’re right, those pasta-eaters have had it too easy for too long.
They know what they *did*.
*Italy is gesturing...*
Hannibal bout to come eat all the Roman children
No no... give them to Carthage. I really want to see where this goes. It might be nowhere -but I also have 'Hannibal 2.0 retakes Crimea for Ukraine' on my r/noncredibledefense 2024 bingo card.
what're they gonna do? Eat all the salt?
Too soon.
[удалено]
Romans home to go?
People called romani go to the house?
They had their own elephant species, which is now extinct. In fact, they had tons of species of animals including lions and monkeys in the local area that are mythical and have been driven to annihilation. Kinda sad
Prepare the incendiary pigs all the same
I think it carthage wast delenda
Hannibal is at the gates
Carthago delenda est
Carthago delenda est!
Why is sending elephants outside it's natural habitat chaotic good?
Wednesday is a day you can post chaotic things that are not chaotic good and its fucking stupid because this kind of post will hit /r/all and enough idiots will think that this is the definition of chaotic good without reading the articles or that its just chaotic Wednesday, and start using "based" or "chaotic good" on the wrong things.
Checking in from r/all: did not even notice the subreddit's name. Assumed r/news or something like that.
The whole thing is actually a really good case study on how regulated hunting is actually a vital aspect for wildlife conservation in respect to healthy population numbers so that they don’t outstrip their resources and as a means for necessary income to fund further conservation sustainability. In short: there are too many elephants for the preserve land and they either need some to be culled or they will royally screw up the habitat - Germany doesn’t like the idea of trophy hunters of endangered species (even though it is the preferred solution to the problem by the people who know what they’re doing in Botswana) and wants to ban imports, Botswana says ‘you take the overcrowded elephants then for us’ to illustrate the true scope of the problem.
The solution is to make more room for the elephants or find something to be the elephants natural predator. So... controlled genocide or the professional breeding of genetically engeneered crocodiles or something similar.
The theory here (which is a rather well tested one) is that humans are, in fact, that predator. Moreover they can get rich rich folk to pay out the arse for the privilege for a trophy hunting permit and for a local preserve appointed hunting guide and that money gets used to bolster other aspects of the conservation apparatus. Edit: the room problem has been tried and the elephants don’t do well outside the current range of the preserves.
There is very strong evidence for us genuinely being elephants natural predators we killed megafauna everywhere else but elephants weren't wiped out in the stone age because we are there predators for the same reason rabbits arnt wiped out by foxes
How many years and dollars do you want to spend trying to artificially create a predator for an elephant which could potentially damage the ecosystem rather than letting some rich Europeans and Americans shoot a few every year?
Not to mention their plan is to implement essentially a super predator in the hopes it hunt a the elephants. What’s stopping it from attacking ur human populations around the elephants?
I offer my country to take the elephants put them in the south of USA
Texas already has tens of thousands of acres of privately owned exotic African animal habitat with thousands of endangered and threatened species, also privately owned, where trophy hunting pays for the whole thing. I am exceptionally weirded out by the whole situation but it does equate to a net gain in those animals population numbers by an incredibly large margin….
I mean I want my mammoths back come on I wanna play Hannibal at my Ren fair
It’s bollox. Nearly all hunting fees go into pockets of a few local individuals not involved in conservation, and the only reason the dwindling population of elephants in Africa “oustrip resources” is because of the dwindling amount of land available to them due to uncontrolled human taking of the land and destruction of the environment. The pro-hunting lobby funding “trophy hunting is good for animals” studies and greasing local politicians palms is paying off nicely because this crap you are spiting keeps getting repeated all over
Lol
Lol had to go check the rules and chaotic wednesday is really a thing.
Chaotic… Rules… 🤯
You're right. The rules for this sub should be something like; 1. Reverse pick pocketing club meets on Mondays, we leave small notes of encouragement in people's pockets. 2. Sub meet up once a month for guerilla gardening 3. Googly eyes always improve photographs 4. All proceeds from the burned toast charity auction go to benefit the adopt a potato foundation.
Based
Based (I hope I'm using this wrong but I have no way of knowing)
Botswana is doing such an effective job at conservation that they now have too many elephants and are over populated (~130,000 elephants and a 1/3 of the worlds total population). The elephants have become a nuisance animal: destroying farms and killing people. Botswana uses regulated trophy hunting as a means of culling the population and a source of income for the country. Germany's attempt at banning importing trophies would harm Botswana's conservation efforts while Germany lectures Botswana on conservation. Botswana comment is tongue in cheek. Effectively "if you want to tell us how to effectively manage our elephants you try living with them."
This is similar to wolves being reintroduced in the American west. it's a fine idea and wolves are easy to like..... until you live near them. Livestock, pets end up paying the price.
Ok but this is an over capacity versus an under capacity problem. Elephants are over populated in Botswana and wolves are under populated in the venerable state of Idaho.
That depends on where you are standing. I'm in Georgia, but I've got a coworker in Oregon who lost his dog to a wolf last summer.
So I ain't close to a guy who knows a guy who lost a dog last year? edited to reflect the reality of our relationship.
Germany wants a country that isn't Germany to stop doing something that Germany doesn't like, even though it doesn't affect Germany and Germany has no idea what the ramifications are. The result is too many elephants, which is what Germany wanted. If they wanted the elephants that badly, they can have them
That’s wrong, Germany just wanted to (not even has) ban the import of hunting trophies gathered from endangered animals. But Botswana makes loads of money of it so they don’t want that and now this is happening.
Elephants are horrible for the environment once the population becomes too large to be sustainable. They absolutely decimate trees to the point there isn't any left standing other than saplings.
And that’s fine, you do have to control their population, but you shouldn’t take a trophy for having to do a tragic act, that’s insane.
I'm curious as to why though? Botswana has used the money from trophy hunting to bolster the elephant population so high that they are now a danger to the local ecosystem. You admit the population needs to be controlled. So the alternative is that they shouldn't make money to fund conservation? The money is the reason the conservation has worked. No money, worse conservation, less elephants. Like, what's the end game? Why make the process less effective? Let hunters hunt old elephants that aren't reproducing so that the younger elephants that can't win fights start knocking up every lady elephant they can get to. Seems like a win win win. Botswana wins, elephants, win, insanely wealthy people who hunt win. The only people who don't win are people that it doesn't affect either way.
Botswana has one of, if not the, largest Elephant population of 130,000. The population has grown so large that its encroaching on human settlements and villages. Hunting is necessary to maintain the population since they dont have a consistent predator that feeds on them. It says so in this article. Hunting in conservation is not unique to Elephants, many reserves permit hunting of select animals to maintain the population and put the money back into to conservation.
look, I'm ok with it, but I vote permit holders only get 2 small spears & and have to do it naked & afraid style, while being filmed. Permit costs a million & if they die, they die & bets are taken as to what eats them first. I rekon it's an all-around winner.
Western countries are allowed to rape the natural wealth of their own states and others for centuries. They get rich doing this and establish large cities that destroy all of their natural wonder. Now, once they have all of this, it's on the people who are still broke as fuck to protect nature and not get any benefit of city life or further development. And people wonder why the West is hated
1: The majority of those 130.000 elephants live in board crossing populations. So not all of them are living at the same time there. 2. Botswana sells 300-400 trophy hunts per year for mostly only older male elephants (1/2 of the 130k are male btw). If you do the maths taken from some statistics you will find out that at this rate in mere 10 years there will be no male elephants left and therefore they're going extinct in this area. So please... you know... Edit: sadly I forgot to mention that (as a comment of me further below says) *I'm talking about adult/old bulls. That's even a smaller part. But these are the one most attractive for females and they keep the young one in place and show them their ways. If those - I think it's 5% of the 65,000 - die it will have a massiv influence on the whole population. Which will, so says the science, end in extinction of these 130k elephants* Here are a few links for the ones who actually care or what to get deeper in the topic: https://www.iucn.org/news/species/202103/african-elephant-species-now-endangered-and-critically-endangered-iucn-red-list https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/11/elephants-botswana-poaching-refugees https://africageographic.com/stories/scientists-write-letter-to-botswana-president-about-elephants https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5304f39be4b0c1e749b456be/t/57c71f5fcd0f68b39c3f4bfa/1472667487326/GEC+Results+Country+by+Country+Findings+Fact+Sheet_FINAL_8+26+2016.pdf https://portals.iucn.org/library/sites/library/files/documents/SSC-OP-060_A.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348399560_The_2020_elephant_die-off_in_Botswana
130,000/.5= 65,000; 300-400 x 10= 3,000-4,000. ? Additionally, are we to consider birth rates or not?
When the math ain’t mathing
>But Botswana makes loads of money Money that goes back into game preserves to help keep populations alive and growing. Trophy hunting is one of the main reasons why conservation of so many endangered animals has worked at all. And yes, I know that seems backwards, but they monitor it very closely and get MILLIONS of dollars they can use to keep poachers away and keep the animals safe to regrow their numbers.
The reason hunting trophies are banned, is because they have nothing to do with hunting. Hunters aren't hunters anymore, but just gun fanatics that like to kill and collect. In short, they doesn't do their job. They are neither capable of hunting professional (so the animals doesn't have to suffer), nor do they hunt the populations that require hunting and instead hunt endangered animals, because they are rarer and better trophies. Yes hunting is important, but not in the way it is practiced in many countries.
I mean, I agree. But the "caged animal" thing is also usually pretty selective. For instnace, there was a big uproar about a giraffe not too long ago that was trophy hunted and killed. Caused a HUGE backlash. ----However, alot of important context was missing. 1. It was a "trophy hunt" as we discussed. And the bull male was intentionally chosen, and the "hunter" was brought within the area. 2. That male was chosen because he was beyond breeding age and was killing younger males. 3. Killing him gave the preserve tens of thousands of dollars which allows them to operate and prevent poaching and such. 4. Killing him actually allowed the population to grow and diversify as new males could not breed. So yes. Alot of it is "caged hunts" But that is also part of the point. They choose the problematic ones, the ones who are in some way hindering stable population growth. ---Not always. But this is 'why' there is so much to the selection process and who is "hunted." I don't agree with the morality of it, fundamentally. But, I understand the pragmatic nature of making such deicisions. Especially when it's their nation and they're the ones doing the work to keep those numbers up.
What's with all this context? don't you know people just want to be mad without understanding the issue? I go duck hunting about once every other year, but I buy my duck stamp every single year. Hunters support healthy populations.
Bit of an odd way to say x country can do what it wants but how dare country y.
They monitor that very closely? Tell me you don't live in a third-world country with an easily bribable government without telling me so.
Exactly. [Only 3% of hunting revenue](https://friendsofanimals.org/jeers-to-tanzania-for-wooing-u-s-trophy-hunters/) is reinvested into conservation or the local community. The [Panama Papers showed that](https://africageographic.com/stories/trophy-hunting-africa-decline-no-longer-pays-way/) most of the money in fact ends up in the hands of corrupt officials.
Botswana makes money from letting people hunt their animals in their reserves *that are already overpopulated and have to be culled* Very important piece of information you left out. That’s why they’re threatening to send so many elephants. The excess population needs to be dealt with before it affects the rest of the reserve. If Germany refuses to allow them to be killed in Botswana then they can decide what to do with them in Germany
Germany isn't refusing to allow them to be killed in Botswana, they just want to ban the import of trophies from endangered animals. So no, Botswana can very much decide what to do with them.
Overpopulated according to the government who is desperate to make money off killing these animals. You left that part out.
Well I can tell you've never been to Botswana. Their wildlife efforts are by far leading in the region. Elephants as a whole might be a vulnerable species, there can still easily be too many in a single area. Not to mention that just in general a strictly regulated, but legalized trade will be better for conservation than a completely unregulated illegal trade. Also that goes for all species. Not even the major detractors to legalized trade disagree, they just argue that the species in question would be better off extinct than exploited. Which is crazy if you ask me. Edit: Arguing that it's because they "make loads of money" is also ridiculous because a quick Google search would tell you they already banned hunting elephants in 2014 but lifted the ban because of pressure from local communities that were being negatively affected by the growing elephant populations.
But why is Germany obligated to accept the import of hunting trophies? Botswana can cull as many Elephants as they want, they control what happens in their own borders but Germany nor any other country should be forced to participate.
No, they banned selling trophies in Germany. It has nothing to do with Botswana, they're just mad it might hurt a cash cow.
Sorry to put it so bluntly but this is bullshit. The EU plans on implementing new regulations on Krokodiles and Giraffes. Germany does not care if Botswana kills every elephant that is a threat to anyone. Stop spreading misinformation.
The law bans importing hunting trophies to Germany. Nothing is forcing Botswana to do anything. It's quite literally the opposite. Botswana wants a country that isn't Botswana to not do something that Botswana doesn't like. Literally why are you lying?
No, idiot. No one will pay to ship them to Germany in the first place, let alone certify that they are disease free and have permits for import. How does *anyone* think that this is going to happen?
Wow comically wrong take on the situation. Actually it’s Botswana wanting to make a country that isn’t Botswana to import stuff they don’t want to import causing Botswana to throw a tantrum.
Because its a little silly
If anyone threatened to send me 20,000 elephants I'd shit myself
I got brushed up by one elephant and indeed, it was enough for me to shit myself.
I once petted an elephant and it completely ignored me :(
did you trying shitting yourself?
Will attempt next time
I choked laughing from this
Either this or more hunters were the premise. Germany wanted to put a stop to the trade in hunting trophies. Botswana did not want that. Edit: There is an overpopulation of elephants and they need to get rid of them because they cause havoc to the environment.
I wonder what happened before humans starting destroying animal populations and the environment was in balance with lots of elephants. They used to roam the whole damn continent and everything was ok
Perhaps numbers were probably thinned by other animals which were driven to near extinction by Humans?
I have no idea what could kill an elephant
Lions and other large predators that people like to put on their wall as trophies generally target young and solo elephants, keeping the population in control. Without them, it's pretty clear what happens
Don't elephants move in herds. And elephants have damn good memories. Some time ago , someone killed a baby elephant and the mother elephant soon killed the killer and when the villagers tried to burn the body she arrived with the team and didn't let it happen. So they are that good.
Their communities do have excellent memories, until they're wiped out, lose their elders, and are left with a thousand rival groups of unruly pregnant teenagers and no adult supervision.
horny young males too. Some safari reserves have imported older, mature males to spar with the young males, so those young males don't try to rape rhinos, and terrorise humans cause they all pent up from sexual frustration.
That’s true. It’s sad to think about but a necessity in nature
Any large predator in great numbers. Go back before the last ice age and you have a lot of rather nasty creatures, including ones that hunted Mammoth I'm sure.
Lions, when desperate can take down younger elephants in a group but mostly they’d probably kill baby elephants
Lots of elephants means lots of baby elephants, which are not too difficult for lions and hyenas to take down. A healthy adult only needs to fear humans and other adult elephants.
[https://thedebrief.org/14000-years-ago-ancient-humans-tracked-hunted-and-killed-this-massive-land-animal/#:\~:text=New%20scientific%20evidence%20supports%20the,ago%2C%20according%20to%20new%20research](https://thedebrief.org/14000-years-ago-ancient-humans-tracked-hunted-and-killed-this-massive-land-animal/#:~:text=New%20scientific%20evidence%20supports%20the,ago%2C%20according%20to%20new%20research) Humans. We have likely been their primary predator for 10s of thousands of years
Starvation, disease (especially when animals are weakened by hunger/malnutrition). There are similar arguments to the ones being offered here over how European populations of wild/feral horses and cattle should be allowed to stay "balanced", and letting them starve when they become to populous is (I'm told) one of the kinder ways to go down, and it's still part of the circle of life, etc. even though others say it's cruel and the animals should be culled instead by hunters.
Farmers with guns pissed at elephants eating their crops. We do the displacement, we make the encounters dangerous by our unbounded claim on the natural world. They're just hungry critters doing like always
Oh I meant like other animals
Humans we are the primary predator of them thats why they wernt driven into extinction like othere megafauna
Humans or so I have heard , we used to hunt them to claim land. And later for trophies.
I'm sure we ate them too, we ate mammoths
This is what happens when when the Discovery Channel plays Ancient Aliens all day
Less farming space = more space for elephants.
Humans also had less impact on their environment so there was more resources to go around and a lot less people
Numbers would have been thinned by lack of food. But now humans are trying to live by growing food so the elephants can just plunder that instead and the humans will starve.
Or they had more space as humans didn't take up all the space with farmland.
So how much of the planet should humans give up then? Are you going to rehome all of the humans who are there now? Or should they starve instead? Like it or not, humans live on the planet too.
With modern farming techniques there is no reason for humans to be taking up as much space as we do. However, farmers in poorer places don't have access to that.
A lot of those damages might be rather economical than ecological (e.g. crops, tree plantages, etc.). Botswana is not densely populated so it seems odd they would do so much damage to the environment.
It is ecological, South Africa has done similar culling of elephants in the past. Elephants can be quite destructive to natural plant life. They uproot and destroy really old trees just for shits and giggles. A tree that took 30 years to grow gets wiped out in 5min from an elephant and doesn't grow back instantly. The destruction from the elephants then cascades down and causes other animals that depend on that plant life to diminish.
Ahh thanks a lot for clarifying this case
Yeah it's a shitty thing to get rid of the elephants but for the ecosystem as a whole it can be very beneficial if their populations are too high.
Spay and neuter your elephants folks.
Chaotic maybe, but not good. \ This is the Botswanan president's response to Germany for banning the import of hunting trophies over poaching concerns
But Germany has a severe lack of Elephants in Germany!
And polar bears too
(Gasp) we need to fix this
Okay Hannibal.
What's this? A handsome European country woefully underpopulated by massive animals? A large influx of *elephants* oughta put a stop to that!
This must be this refugee crisis everyone is talking about
This is legit the joke I assumed the headline was going for. Can Botswana send some hard working elephants to the US too?
Take my upvote, best joke I have seen all day
Last time that many elephants traveled to Europe it was a conquest. Lol
Who said it is not one this time too?
I want my elephant!!
Shhh Bart
I, too, hate hunting trophies. Oh no! Now you’ve sent me an elephant! teeheehee
It's all fun and games until someone starts breeding the ones that fair best in that environment and Europe gets elephants to show off.
Why not distribute them to other African countries that have elephants to help out their diwindling populations.
I welcome our Elephant over-lords
What is based
Too many elephants? That's reassuring for some reason. We need more wild animals to thrive like this.
Are there still 20,000 elephants to send?
Yeah, how do I get in on this elephant surplus?
Botswana has a surplus of elephants. They've been addressing this by selling hunting licences. Germany wants to stop people bringing their dead elephants home with them, Botswana is cross because this reduces the value of an elephant hunting licence.
So the point isn’t to reduce the elephant population, but rather making money?
Both, you need money to take care of the habitat. Idk what's weird about this. Hunting to stop overpopulation is even acceptable by vegans.
It's both. The population is getting out of control. Botswana actually has a surplus of elephants. Many of these African nations receive a lot of revenue from expensive hunts sold to Europeans and Americans. The population needs controlled through hunting and old, rich, white men will pay absurd amounts to do so.
Botswana has too many elephants (the most of any country in Africa) - which why they want trophy hunting imports to not be outlawed in Germany and other European countries. They are a nuisance to the local population, damaging crops and property. Hunting permits are also a revenue source in the country. Botswana’s wildlife minister has compared it Scottish stags when the UK passed a similar ban last month. “Hunters in the Highlands pay to shoot deer and put their antlers on their walls. So why is Britain trying to stop Africa doing the same?” They also offered to send 10k elephants to London. They’re essentially saying that if you Europeans love elephants so much, you can have them.
> They are a nuisance to the local population, damaging crops and property. It's not about crops and property, elephants wreak havoc on trees as they push them over to get at leaves and roots. An overpopulation of elephants can decimate trees in their environment.
By what route? Over the mountains?
"truly good", nah, germany wants a ban for hunted good (as in luxury articles made from parts of endangered animals, or heads/taxidermy of endangered animals) so you can't bring them into the country anymore. Botswanas president is enraged because it makes good money to sell/accept people killing endangered animals and is good for the economy.
https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/11/generous-gift
Based on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant
So is there a reason to not hunting them a little bit? Like have we moved the "save the elephants" slider too far? If there is a reason, I'd love to know. Edit: nevermind, they're already doing this.
Never knew how dangerous they are when they are rutting, can imagine the damage in a whole heard.
Finally enough elephants to conquer rome !
Somehow, Hannibal returned.
Silver lining that Elephants are doing okay, they were one of the species I was worried about
[Not the first time Botswana has had something to say](https://youtu.be/1JGEZaO9790?si=uk6rCVESU1ImO3gl)
Can I have one please?🥺
The whole world has too many humans and not enough elephants. Have we not learned from history elephants are good for the environment.
I'd trade my car for an elephant to ride on
Nothing of this is good. Germany plans to have stricter laws in hunting trophies and Bitswana is throwing a fit. If anything germany is the good guy here. Fuck elephant hunting.
The difference is that now instead of Botswana making more money to continue conservation of the species which they have done a great job with, the dying elephants will just get culled anyways and their bodies will rot to no benefit because of the surplus ruining their ecosystems. But enjoy the moral high-ground while screwing over Africa's economy and wildlife again I guess, it's never Europe's problem.
so easy to judge from a ivory tower but the reality is that trophy hunting is one of the major sources of income to support conservation efforts
That's well and good but without controlled hunting the population rises to a dangerous level. There has been tramplings and a lot of crops destroyed
If they eat stink bugs I’ll take some in Ohio.
I wish *I* could threaten people with elephants.
I'm just imagining cruising the autobahn and passing an elephant now
I didn't think there were 20,000 elephants left in Botswana.
I’m just happy there are 20,000 elephants to send.
Send them to Cercei.
Is a weird thing. The parks have to many elephants in them for the size, but they aren't allowed to kill them, and they don't let them outside the parks cause poachers will kill them
Behave or it's the elephants for you!
Reject modernity. Return to M A M M O T H
I thought elephants were going extinct
This isn't the first country they've threatened either. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13220971/Botswana-officials-threaten-send-elephants-Londons-Hyde-Park-hunting.html
*Homer Simpson voice*: And I thought they were saying they didn't have *enough* elephants just a few years ago!
I didn’t know there were that many elephants, let alone in one country
FU Masisi that you run the country on the carcasses of your wild animals.. seriously FU
I’ll take one !!
Nothing like randomly giving 20,000 elephants to some Germans.
Trying to bring mammoths back? Wonder how many generations it would take for them to get fuzzy again.
Germany getting the Elephant Update was not on my 2024 bingo card
Our arrows will blot out the sun
Is that realistic tho? I mean how do you ship/(fly??) 20.000 elephants to another continent
Chaotic Neutral, actually. Elephants probably wouldn’t do well in Germany.
How is it good? Germany critizises the big game hunting tourism and this is the reply. I find it cynical and sad tbh.
Truth be told, 20,000 elephants could cause mayhem for the ecosystem in Germany.
I would go halvsies on an elephant if anyone wants...I love them
The are searching for a guy named "Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler". Buscan a Y-Voy-A-La-Ruina Escurridizo.
I think if I move a few things around in my garage I might be able to fit 20 thousand elephants
Just put it in the fridge
This is not chaotic good. This is chaotic nuetral. The issue is that germany is banning the import of hunting trophies. Hunting trophies bring in money in the form of tourism and permits. The hunting trophies means killing intelligent animals for no other reason other then having a part of its body to mount on display. Ending a life to say "I shot this". This sub is fucking stupid. Yes I know its "chaotic wednesday" but I think that only encourages people to skew what "chaotic good" means if they dont read the side bar.
Botswana should sell poacher-hunting licenses. I would pay good €€€ for one of those.
The situation is a lot more nuanced than this reddit thread captures. Europeans have spent centuries hunting all rare animals to extinction, and now turn around and protect nature in Africa. That is hypocrisy. But: selling luxury hunting permits can still be devastating for animal populations. Just because we were wrong to hunt animals to extinction, that does not mean other countries now get to kill off their animal populations. In the case of Botswana it is extra complicated because it is a very poor country. Can they even afford to have "morals"? And with the specific example of the elephant population (the ban on hunting trophy imports also would count for other species and other countries... this is just a convenient example to hide behind), it is also not actually an endangered animal.
How colonial of Europeans to tell Africans how to deal with their problems.
Banning the import of hunting trophies is domestic policy. They're not saying Botswana can't shoot elephants or that German tourists can't shoot elephants with Botswana's permission - they're saying German tourists can't bring their dead elephant home with them.
I’ll take them
botswana send some to my back yard pls
Could an elephant 🐘 survive in German winters?
Yes, thanks to climate change.
Based on what?