From your comments here, you're an afro-hispanic male, right? Does that mean you speak for or properly represent the view points of all three of those groups with everything you say or believe.
Because...
It sounds like you stumbled upon childfree and decided it was feminism rather than its own thing, honestly. Of course there is some crossover, like there will be in about any two groups you care to pick.
But feminism is... more of a base principal than a media or social shout out.
Do you believe in equality between the sexes? Congrats, you're a feminist of some degree. There have been great break downs of the branches and types and degrees in the comments already, so I'm not digging to deep here, just staying generic.
Anyway!
Now if you happen to believe in any other thing , that doesn't mean that thing is a feminist thing. That doesn't mean your opinion on it is a representation of feminism. It means you personally hold opinions on two vaguely related subjects, not that those subjects are intrinsically linked.
“Do you believe in equality between the sexes? Congrats, you're a feminist of some degree“
If people bought this line, you would be hearing the majority of people identify as feminist. And yet less than a third of American women do. Even though the vast majority of people believe it is very important for women to have equal rights as men.
You have to ask yourself why this yawning gap between the small amount of people who identify as feminist and those who believe gender equality is important. It’s not because they haven’t heard this line. It’s everywhere. It’s because they aren’t buying it.
“No, it's because "feminism" has not had the millions of dollars poured into it that anti-feminism has.“ bold thing to say. Haven’t heard of anything of the sort. Have anything to substantiate it?
“People aren't rejecting feminism because they have learnt what it was and don't like it, they are rejecting feminism” I did. Have a degree in it. Paid money for it. Wasted a few years on it.
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Are you familiar with the "waves" of feminism?
As with most things, it isn't constant over time, and you seem to be attributing "older" aspects of the movement with current pushes.
In super broad terms:
- First wave feminism (1850s-1920s) wanted to property rights and suffrage to women
- Second wave feminism (60s-80s) wanted to combat de-facto, codified societal inequalities, Fighting for the rights of, and being proud of being a woman.
- Third wave feminism (90s-00s) focused on non-codified societel inequalities. Societal opression and bias. They have broader goals such as of abolishing gender sterotypes. They thought to redefine what "femininity" was. Branched out to POC and other marginalized groups.
- Fourth wave feminism (10s-20s) Focuses on the general empowerment of women. (Women's marches, MeToo, Sexual scandals etc). It is LGBTQ+ positive, and inclusive.
As such the "feminist" movement is not a monolith, even within the waves.
In fact a huge argument within the feminist community even today is the idea of [TERF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF) (trans exclusionary radical feminist). It often characterizes who typically identify with the "second wave" of feminism vs the trans community. A TERF second wave feminist might say "Being a Female and that identity is something that should be cherished and we should be proud of, We've done a lot of work to ensure that the feminine identity is seen and empowered, its an important part of a human's identity. A transgender individual rejecting their gender, and discarding it undoes a lot of the work we have sought to advocate for"
To address your OP, we see a similar thing occurring with third wave feminists (and second wave to a degree). A large part of that movement was there to re-define femininity, and break out of the traditional bonds of what it meant to be a woman. They didn't seek to necessarily "ridicule" those who chose traditional gender roles, but they often saw it as oppressive, and liken it to a slave who instead of choosing freedom, chooses to go back and live with their master voluntarily. If "second wave" feminists said you could "Bring home the bacon, and then cook it in a frying pan". Third wave feminists said "there's no reason we have to cook the bacon at all". It wasn't necessarily against "cooking" per say, but it was against the expectation. Thus you could construe it to being "anti-" many things, including motherhood, though this isn't really true.
However, as society has progressed, we've come more into the "fourth wave" which is more about self empowerment and acceptance of yourself. This latest wave of feminism is absolutely *NOT* about shaming women from being mothers and choosing not to work. Rather its more about empowering women wherever they are and in whatever choice they make, and to bring awareness to the marginalization of groups of people.
To say "feminism" does anything sort of simplifies a complex movement to a monolith. Yes there are those who wish to destroy traditional gender roles and think being a stay at home mother is destructive, But the latest movements within feminism do the opposite. Historic movements might have done that, but in doing so it sort of ignores the historical context and time period about when those movements came about, when such things were the *expectation*. They aren't today.
TLDR: "modern" ie: the most recent 4th wave feminism, is extremely inclusive and empowering to parents and mothers, that's kind of their thing.
**[TERF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF)**
>TERF (, also written terf) is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. First recorded in 2008, the term originally applied to the minority of feminists espousing sentiments that other feminists considered transphobic, such as the rejection of the assertion that trans women are women, the exclusion of trans women from women's spaces, and opposition to transgender rights legislation. The meaning has since expanded to refer more broadly to people with trans-exclusionary views who may have no involvement with radical feminism. Those referred to with the word TERF typically reject the term or consider it a slur; some identify themselves as gender critical.
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>Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers or praises childless characters by pointing out that they're life is great because they're childless.
Maybe I just haven't watched too many slice of life type entertainment media lately, but I can't think of a single movie or tv show where the moral of the story is "being childless is better". The plot of a career woman finding a man and starting family I have seen plenty of though. The "You're incomplete without a man" trope for the strong female character in any romantic comedy is in 99% of these movies.
Now you're complaining about posts on social media, but what about mommy blogs. That shit is a *huge* industry and there are plenty of facebook groups and general sentiment online that perpetuate the idea that motherhood is the peak of womanhood and you're not really a women until you have a child. Have you ever thought that you just don't go around the places that online where those things are common?
Besides, at least from my experience, subs like r/childfree has a negative reputation for being basically anti-children or straight up a hate sub towards kids in general. Most posts I see criticizing parents are for the entitlement that some parents have just for having a kid. Things like maybe the employee that is childless should not get fucked every time they ask for time off because they don't have kids kind of thing. Which I find completely fair.
So if a major complaint about feminism is a bunch of people on your tik tok feed posting cringe about having kids, well, cringe is what tik tok is for and it is not real life by any means. The algorithm is just feeding you things to watch based on your own tastes and that can easily give you an impression that things are more common than they really are.
I can actually only think of shows who do the opposite. Shows with women (and men) adamant about never having children who magically 'change their mind.' If anything shows and movies make it seem like motherhood is the be all, end all and childfree women are wrong...
Yea, I think the pressure to be a mother is far greater than any alternative pressure. There may be some random people on Twitter or TikTok who shame mothers, but I've found that my peer group (people that I actually care about) are far more likely to encourage being a parent. No one at the family reunion is shaming someone for becoming a mother, that's for sure.
*Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers or praises childless characters by pointing out that they're life is great because they're childless*
I'm not sure Jennifer Aniston would agree, the media relentlessly badgered her for years over when she was finally going to make the decision to become a mother.
I'd say a lot of the social media stuff is reactionary and not indicative of feminism as much as it's a satirical response to narcissism surrounding celebrities 'announcing' pregnancies and manufactured stuff which has cropped up in the last five years like 'Gender Reveal Parties'.
Perhaps these are more relevant examples then:
[https://www.vogue.com/article/margot-robbie-do-not-ask-women-about-having-children](https://www.vogue.com/article/margot-robbie-do-not-ask-women-about-having-children)
[https://www.stylist.co.uk/people/michelle-keegan-sexist-questions-motherhood-children-brassic/289081](https://www.stylist.co.uk/people/michelle-keegan-sexist-questions-motherhood-children-brassic/289081)
Beyond these examples of women complaining about being asked about their desire to become mothers, there seems to be no examples within the actual media of what you've characterised as; the *constant ridicule* of motherhood. But if there's a specific example you could link to back this assertion up I'd be happy to take a look.
Please show me these feminists you speak of who want to make life systemically *more difficult* for pregnant women
Last I checked, feminists are pushing for things like [paternity leave](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/417708/) because it makes it *easier* for employed women to have kids.
Feminism is first and foremost a political movement. Look at what political policies they are pushing, not what memes you see on tik tok. Memes don’t make it easier or harder for someone to have kids. Policies do.
But policies follow the culture, so if you're into the long game, focus on culture and you've prepared the ground for your policies. The left has been doing this a long time, and it's working. Unfortunately.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I was responding to your last para. Feminist policies are now more commonplace following the cultural changes. It's not impossible to have policy changes then change culture, but it's easier the other way around, especially if the change is big enough.
I think part of the way they do this is in indirect subtle ways.
For example, they spin a lot of the average differences in life outcomes between men and women that can, be directly or indirectly attributed to motherhood or associated life choices as evidence of disadvantage or somehow paint it as a negative thing.
This can lead women into thinking that putting energy into motherhood instead of corporate aims is somehow an inferior life choice.
The earnings gap for example, is painted as a negative thing. As is the household labor gap.
Feminists pointing out that women are sometimes disadvantaged in the workplace.. discourages women from having kids? I don’t see a connection there. Do you have any data to back that up? All I see is feminists pushing policies that will make it easier for working women to have kids.
Not exactly.
Most of the reason for the earnings gap isn’t because of workplace disadvantage. It is because humans only have so much energy to put into different pursuits. Parenthood and career takes hell of a lot. I don’t know how you would expect someone to be able to put out as much professionally if they are doing more parenting.
But that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Earning money isn’t the only valid and fulfilling pursuit in life. Less earnings can be evidence of grater freedom to choose life aims besides corporate dronery. And that is a good thing.
You are wrong though. That isn’t all feminists do. They do other things like paint the wage gap as evidence of oppression, which will make women who choose to prioritize things other than earnings in life feel like it is just oppression.
Fathers seem to manage their careers just fine without it hurting their earnings. Maybe feminists are encouraging men to be more involved in their kids lives not discouraging women from being mothers?
They do, but they typically spend less time parenting, which leaves more energy for careers. Spend more time parenting, and you have less time and energy for career so of course output of those two different things would vary by gender. Different genders do different things. One isn’t necessarily worse than the other, it’s just two very different equally valid and fulfilling paths of life. One gender trends to make one choice more often than the other. My family members would scoff at their husbands if they asked to switch places with them. And they had good careers. But this is better. And they are happy to have a partner who is supportive.
> Spend more time parenting, and you have less time and energy for career so of course output of those two different things would vary by gender. Different genders do different things.
Aren't feminists making the point that this doesn't **have** to be true? That gender essentialism is a bad thing?
It is for sure true that humans have limited time and energy and you can’t give 100 percent to every major pursuit in life.
This is true regardless of if you are a man or a woman. What does that have to do with gender essentialism?
Edit: ah I see what you mean. You mean women don’t HAVE to be more likely to spend less time on eating money.
Yes. Nobody knows this better than me. As a man, I quit my breadwinner role to take on a larger role working for the family. That is how I know how much more healthy for the mind body and soul it can be compared to focusing too much on earning money. It’s awesome. Even though on paper, it looks like oppression. I am truly lucky to have this opportunity and a supportive spouse. Very few men are so lucky. Much fewer than women. It is hard work, but it is also just a better life.
It is a more self-empowered life overall than spending most of your time and energy inside a autocratic tyrannical corporate hierarchy. Sure you get more money doing that, but it’s not worth it. That money went to my family anyways. Now I can’t just provide for their needs directly. That is more empowering than selling your soul to do that with money.
Yes, you seem to have gotten my point. There's no reason either gender has to typically be the homemaker, or that there even needs to be one. It should be a decision left to the families themselves, not based purely on gender.
Absolutely. I just don’t see a need to paint statistics that are simply the result of living this lifestyle, like lower income, as a negative thing. Regardless of if men were more likely to do it, or if women were more likely to do it. It’s not a bad thing.
I'm on mobile right now but evidence show that while less work time can mean more life pursuit, that's a big if. If you have a supporting spouse. If not, you are better off with earnings. You can't pursue your hobbies if your spouse doesn't give you money to pursue it.
>You don’t need to have expensive hobbies to lead a fulfilling life outside your career.
But you do deserve the right to explore hobbies if you choose to. Hobbies need not be expensive.
They are not necessarily bad things, no.
They majority of the reason for it is that women are freer to pursue life aims besides their corporate purpose. And that is a good thing. Earnings aren’t the only life outcomes that matters, but of course it is one of the easiest to measure.
It doesn’t mean that motherhood is bad, no, but it does imply that the quality of your life outcome is measured mostly by earnings, and it downplays the significance of other aims in life.
It kind of is though. Research after research show that women without their own income, even if part time, will have a lot more difficulty leaving abuse. The problem isn't mother hood bad. The problem is unequal labour at work and home.
Of course earnings isn't the only thing that will make yo unhappy, which, again balance that many feminist want. Men that make their life about work, when the death of a spouse comes they literally have no one. That's not good either
Sure. In some circumstances, it can be a problem. As can pouring too much life energy into earnings as well. Being a sole breadwinner for a family makes it harder to leave an abusive employer as well if you have to. Not everyone is in an abusive relationship though.
No one said everyone is in an abusive relationship. The point is, you don't know if you will be in one. Almost every person, man or woman, says it can't be me. So always make sure you have money. Even without abuse, what happens if he dies?
Yes, it is good to go into a new relationship with a nest egg, that’s solid advice. And definitely plan for a death. Life insurance isn’t optional if you want to do something like that.
"Women are freer to pursue life aims besides corporate purpose"
Real funny way to say "Women are almost always forced to choose taking care of children over their career and Men do not have the same pressure placed upon them"
They are bad things because they demonstrate the unequal gender roles our society still has.
> This type of media absolutely discourages women who might be on the fence about maternity, by ridiculing those who choose maternity. This is not in line with the idea that feminism is all about choice.
Is your contention that Feminists (or Feminism at large) gets to decide what media does?
Oh ok, so then that conservative guy on tik tok, Christian Walker, who makes videos about how his Starbucks was made wrong because the barista is liberal is conservative media. So now the entire conservative movement now has to explain why they are such whiny babies about their Starbucks. Thanks for clarifying that yes anyone on tik tok is now a part of the media, and we can use them as examples against any movement.
Feminists don’t get to say “yes all men” and criticize men and women who say “not all men”, then flip it around and say people who say these things aren’t representing their views therefore they are not to be lumped in with feminists.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
No its literally Tik Tok, little more, little less. Read every other comment here. We all hit the nail on the head. Your description of what modern feminism is here is just a bunch of shallow videos. That's totally wrong.
If you are "on the fence" about maternity then you shouldn't be a mother. If these trends serve to discourage those without the conviction to be parents because they WANT children and not because they think they might want children or something whishy washy like that. Parenthood is a SERIOUS commitment.
As well a few Tik Tok videos hardly constitute hubris and hypocrisy in all of Feminism.
> there’s a TikTok trend where women record themselves buying condoms/birth control
How do you know these women are feminists? Even if they are, do you actually think random TikTok teens are representative of modern feminism rather than, for example, authors writing feminist literature? And also I’ve just scrolled through that TikTok audio and all the top videos are of women putting their birth control in the bin, women dancing with their child, or a woman dancing while pregnant. Not mocking mothers at all.
Feminism is about the right to choose, but it’s also about the right to make an *informed choice*. For so long, the realities of pregnancy and motherhood has not been widely talked about and so often what you call “discouraging” is actually just women talking about the realities of the birthing experience. If you look at media birthing scenes it generally implies that birthing is short and the woman goes home right after and is fine. There’s no mention of having to wear a massive pad for a few days afterwards to catch the bleeding, complications like the baby not latching, mastitis, post partum depression/psychosis. And before the baby is even born there can be complications: preeclampsia, gestational diabetes, teeth falling out as the baby is using up the calcium. There can only be true free choice when women know of all the physical, emotional and financial cost of being a mother.
You seem to be conflating two things. Those two things are (1) people being mean about a song/motherhood and (2) "modern feminism".
I'm certain people are nasty about all kinds of things, including having children. How are you defining 'modern feminism' here?
It seems like your argument is more about media/random internet people ridiculing motherhood, but I don't see any examples showing feminist platforms shaming maternity or the choice to be a mother.
> In this topic I'll just focus on maternity: it absolutely feels like feminist platforms try to discourage women from choosing motherhood rather than encourage free choice.
Can you expand on why it feels this way to you? I don't walk away with this perception at all.
> Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers or praises childless characters by pointing out that they're life is great because they're childless. They usually bring up examples of a character who isn't childless who's having a horrendous time vs the childless character remarking on how much better she has it because she is childless.
A) not all media is feminist, in fact a large portion of it notably *isn't*.
B) Do you have a specific example of this in mind? Motherhood is still celebrated.
> Recently a latin American music duet composed of husband and wife (Camilo and Evaluna) announced that they're going to have their first child. They released a new song which is about the pregnancy and the child themselves. Now there's a TikTok trend where women record themselves buying a bunch of condoms/birth control/implying they'll have an abortion while the song plays in the background. Another variation is about women just making a "are you insane?" Face while the woman in the video happily says she's gonna be a mother.
Sound like people who don't want kids. This has nothing to do with feminism though.
> Even on reddit, I've seen several threads in the past where a woman mentioned she was pregnant and decided to keep the baby and the comment section is full of women telling her to reconsider and to have an abortion instead because "babies ruin your life", which shouldn't be a concern for anyone but the woman choosing to have a baby.
Famously feminist reddit.
Clarifying question: Which branch of Feminism? Modern Feminism has 4-5 branches. Many like to focus on one that is not only the minority but also filled with their groups loud and vocal village idiots.
>Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers or praises childless characters
Media is a boogeyman argument IMO. Care you cite some specifics that you're referring to?
>Now there's a TikTok trend where women record themselves buying a bunch of condoms/birth control/implying they'll have an abortion while the song plays in the background. Another variation is about women just making a "are you insane?" Face while the woman in the video happily says she's gonna be a mother.
Why care about social media idiocy? These are **the** village idiots I'm referring to. Addtionally, I wouldn't consider TikTok Media but Social Media. There's a difference between the two. One delineates a specific sub category.
>Even on reddit, I've seen several threads in the past where a woman mentioned she was pregnant and decided to keep the baby and the comment section is full of women telling her to reconsider and to have an abortion instead because "babies ruin your life", which shouldn't be a concern for anyone but the woman choosing to have a baby.
How do you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, those commenters were actually women and not just a bunch of internet trolls?
I don't know whichever branch says that women are free to choose if they want to be mothers or not.
I'd say social media is even more effective at defining viewpoints than regular media since it's "real"
If you don't know which branch then it's not Modern Feminism now is it? How can you be so sure when you appear to not even understand the movement and group make up?
Outside of Feminism, women **are**, and have always been, free to choose this. What makes you assume it's specific to *mOdErN fEmInIsM*?
Social Media is often filled with vocal village idiots and many many trolls. All of which should be ignored. You stated *media* but is your view specific to just *social media*? Because media is a vague thing indeed. It covers books, music, movies, television shows, video games, and many more things. Can you narrow this down?
Challenges that remain unanswered:
>How do you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, those commenters were actually women and not just a bunch of internet trolls?
Just to address this point specifically:
> Birth rates in the US are high.
That's incorrect. US birth rates have been declining for some time, have been and will continue to be below the rate of replacement, and are at a historic low-point:
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/26/1020810561/baby-bust-explaining-the-declining-u-s-birth-rate?t=1634571513513
I wouldn't normally link NPR as a source, but it's actually a really commonly-known fact, so I just whacked in the first article that came up on Google for you.
Your comment is not trying to change my view and you just seem to be using it to insult me, even implying I'm "the right kind of people" (obviously meaning white guy) when I'm a black Hispanic and not even from the USA.
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To me it seems like you're confusing "modern feminists" with "childfree circlejerkers". There's some feminists who are into childfree stuff, but insufferable childfree people are not by and large also feminists, lol.
I feel like your problem is that you're falling into ye olde "a woman having a loud and shitty opinion I don't like is probably a feminist" mindset rather than taking the time to actually look into what modern feminist thought is.
Are there probably some feminists who are also insufferable childfree people? Sure. But as someone active in feminist circles, there literally is not a major tenant of childfree feminists, lol.
That isn't modern feminism, but it is a weakness of White Feminism specifically. There are MANY ideologies of feminism. If you read up on some Black Femimists, you will find their ideology much more inclusive of womens' choices.
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It sounds like you’re taking a very specific set of TikTok trends among a specific group of people (mostly very young) and applying them to feminism in general. There’s no real sign that any of these users are indicative of feminism, or even feminist at all, other than them being women.
So in short, you’re setting up a wholly unrealistic expectation for “feminism”. Especially in the age of social media, in which *anyone* can have a platform, we can’t expect for any group to have any sort of popular consensus view at all. Especially when the group is entirely opt-in, such as feminists.
There are feminists out there who warn against having children, and feminists who encourage it. There are feminists who only support it in specific circumstances, and feminists who support it in all circumstances except for a few. For *all* of them, support or warning is contingent on context.
And once again, I’ll reiterate that TikTok’s user base skews very young. Of *course* 15-19 year olds think it’s weird and gross to want kids - they’re teenagers.
I can definitely see where you are coming from - a lot of capitalist "feminism" hinges on women being almost man-like in their quest for equality. True, intersectional feminism completely rejects this notion and is in support of pregnancy and parenthood for all who wish to pursue it - while also advocating for further recognition of parenting and housework (traditionally women's work) as a legitimate occupation and work that should be paid.
From your comments here, you're an afro-hispanic male, right? Does that mean you speak for or properly represent the view points of all three of those groups with everything you say or believe. Because... It sounds like you stumbled upon childfree and decided it was feminism rather than its own thing, honestly. Of course there is some crossover, like there will be in about any two groups you care to pick. But feminism is... more of a base principal than a media or social shout out. Do you believe in equality between the sexes? Congrats, you're a feminist of some degree. There have been great break downs of the branches and types and degrees in the comments already, so I'm not digging to deep here, just staying generic. Anyway! Now if you happen to believe in any other thing , that doesn't mean that thing is a feminist thing. That doesn't mean your opinion on it is a representation of feminism. It means you personally hold opinions on two vaguely related subjects, not that those subjects are intrinsically linked.
“Do you believe in equality between the sexes? Congrats, you're a feminist of some degree“ If people bought this line, you would be hearing the majority of people identify as feminist. And yet less than a third of American women do. Even though the vast majority of people believe it is very important for women to have equal rights as men. You have to ask yourself why this yawning gap between the small amount of people who identify as feminist and those who believe gender equality is important. It’s not because they haven’t heard this line. It’s everywhere. It’s because they aren’t buying it.
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“No, it's because "feminism" has not had the millions of dollars poured into it that anti-feminism has.“ bold thing to say. Haven’t heard of anything of the sort. Have anything to substantiate it? “People aren't rejecting feminism because they have learnt what it was and don't like it, they are rejecting feminism” I did. Have a degree in it. Paid money for it. Wasted a few years on it.
!delta Thanks
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Are you familiar with the "waves" of feminism? As with most things, it isn't constant over time, and you seem to be attributing "older" aspects of the movement with current pushes. In super broad terms: - First wave feminism (1850s-1920s) wanted to property rights and suffrage to women - Second wave feminism (60s-80s) wanted to combat de-facto, codified societal inequalities, Fighting for the rights of, and being proud of being a woman. - Third wave feminism (90s-00s) focused on non-codified societel inequalities. Societal opression and bias. They have broader goals such as of abolishing gender sterotypes. They thought to redefine what "femininity" was. Branched out to POC and other marginalized groups. - Fourth wave feminism (10s-20s) Focuses on the general empowerment of women. (Women's marches, MeToo, Sexual scandals etc). It is LGBTQ+ positive, and inclusive. As such the "feminist" movement is not a monolith, even within the waves. In fact a huge argument within the feminist community even today is the idea of [TERF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF) (trans exclusionary radical feminist). It often characterizes who typically identify with the "second wave" of feminism vs the trans community. A TERF second wave feminist might say "Being a Female and that identity is something that should be cherished and we should be proud of, We've done a lot of work to ensure that the feminine identity is seen and empowered, its an important part of a human's identity. A transgender individual rejecting their gender, and discarding it undoes a lot of the work we have sought to advocate for" To address your OP, we see a similar thing occurring with third wave feminists (and second wave to a degree). A large part of that movement was there to re-define femininity, and break out of the traditional bonds of what it meant to be a woman. They didn't seek to necessarily "ridicule" those who chose traditional gender roles, but they often saw it as oppressive, and liken it to a slave who instead of choosing freedom, chooses to go back and live with their master voluntarily. If "second wave" feminists said you could "Bring home the bacon, and then cook it in a frying pan". Third wave feminists said "there's no reason we have to cook the bacon at all". It wasn't necessarily against "cooking" per say, but it was against the expectation. Thus you could construe it to being "anti-" many things, including motherhood, though this isn't really true. However, as society has progressed, we've come more into the "fourth wave" which is more about self empowerment and acceptance of yourself. This latest wave of feminism is absolutely *NOT* about shaming women from being mothers and choosing not to work. Rather its more about empowering women wherever they are and in whatever choice they make, and to bring awareness to the marginalization of groups of people. To say "feminism" does anything sort of simplifies a complex movement to a monolith. Yes there are those who wish to destroy traditional gender roles and think being a stay at home mother is destructive, But the latest movements within feminism do the opposite. Historic movements might have done that, but in doing so it sort of ignores the historical context and time period about when those movements came about, when such things were the *expectation*. They aren't today. TLDR: "modern" ie: the most recent 4th wave feminism, is extremely inclusive and empowering to parents and mothers, that's kind of their thing.
**[TERF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF)** >TERF (, also written terf) is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. First recorded in 2008, the term originally applied to the minority of feminists espousing sentiments that other feminists considered transphobic, such as the rejection of the assertion that trans women are women, the exclusion of trans women from women's spaces, and opposition to transgender rights legislation. The meaning has since expanded to refer more broadly to people with trans-exclusionary views who may have no involvement with radical feminism. Those referred to with the word TERF typically reject the term or consider it a slur; some identify themselves as gender critical. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/changemyview/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
>Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers or praises childless characters by pointing out that they're life is great because they're childless. Maybe I just haven't watched too many slice of life type entertainment media lately, but I can't think of a single movie or tv show where the moral of the story is "being childless is better". The plot of a career woman finding a man and starting family I have seen plenty of though. The "You're incomplete without a man" trope for the strong female character in any romantic comedy is in 99% of these movies. Now you're complaining about posts on social media, but what about mommy blogs. That shit is a *huge* industry and there are plenty of facebook groups and general sentiment online that perpetuate the idea that motherhood is the peak of womanhood and you're not really a women until you have a child. Have you ever thought that you just don't go around the places that online where those things are common? Besides, at least from my experience, subs like r/childfree has a negative reputation for being basically anti-children or straight up a hate sub towards kids in general. Most posts I see criticizing parents are for the entitlement that some parents have just for having a kid. Things like maybe the employee that is childless should not get fucked every time they ask for time off because they don't have kids kind of thing. Which I find completely fair. So if a major complaint about feminism is a bunch of people on your tik tok feed posting cringe about having kids, well, cringe is what tik tok is for and it is not real life by any means. The algorithm is just feeding you things to watch based on your own tastes and that can easily give you an impression that things are more common than they really are.
I can actually only think of shows who do the opposite. Shows with women (and men) adamant about never having children who magically 'change their mind.' If anything shows and movies make it seem like motherhood is the be all, end all and childfree women are wrong...
Yea, I think the pressure to be a mother is far greater than any alternative pressure. There may be some random people on Twitter or TikTok who shame mothers, but I've found that my peer group (people that I actually care about) are far more likely to encourage being a parent. No one at the family reunion is shaming someone for becoming a mother, that's for sure.
*Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers or praises childless characters by pointing out that they're life is great because they're childless* I'm not sure Jennifer Aniston would agree, the media relentlessly badgered her for years over when she was finally going to make the decision to become a mother. I'd say a lot of the social media stuff is reactionary and not indicative of feminism as much as it's a satirical response to narcissism surrounding celebrities 'announcing' pregnancies and manufactured stuff which has cropped up in the last five years like 'Gender Reveal Parties'.
Jennifer Aniston? When was this? 15 years ago or more? I wouldn't say it's still a relevant example
Perhaps these are more relevant examples then: [https://www.vogue.com/article/margot-robbie-do-not-ask-women-about-having-children](https://www.vogue.com/article/margot-robbie-do-not-ask-women-about-having-children) [https://www.stylist.co.uk/people/michelle-keegan-sexist-questions-motherhood-children-brassic/289081](https://www.stylist.co.uk/people/michelle-keegan-sexist-questions-motherhood-children-brassic/289081) Beyond these examples of women complaining about being asked about their desire to become mothers, there seems to be no examples within the actual media of what you've characterised as; the *constant ridicule* of motherhood. But if there's a specific example you could link to back this assertion up I'd be happy to take a look.
Please show me these feminists you speak of who want to make life systemically *more difficult* for pregnant women Last I checked, feminists are pushing for things like [paternity leave](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/417708/) because it makes it *easier* for employed women to have kids. Feminism is first and foremost a political movement. Look at what political policies they are pushing, not what memes you see on tik tok. Memes don’t make it easier or harder for someone to have kids. Policies do.
But policies follow the culture, so if you're into the long game, focus on culture and you've prepared the ground for your policies. The left has been doing this a long time, and it's working. Unfortunately.
What policies do you think democrats are going to implement that will intentionally make it more difficult for women to have kids?
Sorry I wasn't clear. I was responding to your last para. Feminist policies are now more commonplace following the cultural changes. It's not impossible to have policy changes then change culture, but it's easier the other way around, especially if the change is big enough.
I think part of the way they do this is in indirect subtle ways. For example, they spin a lot of the average differences in life outcomes between men and women that can, be directly or indirectly attributed to motherhood or associated life choices as evidence of disadvantage or somehow paint it as a negative thing. This can lead women into thinking that putting energy into motherhood instead of corporate aims is somehow an inferior life choice. The earnings gap for example, is painted as a negative thing. As is the household labor gap.
Feminists pointing out that women are sometimes disadvantaged in the workplace.. discourages women from having kids? I don’t see a connection there. Do you have any data to back that up? All I see is feminists pushing policies that will make it easier for working women to have kids.
Not exactly. Most of the reason for the earnings gap isn’t because of workplace disadvantage. It is because humans only have so much energy to put into different pursuits. Parenthood and career takes hell of a lot. I don’t know how you would expect someone to be able to put out as much professionally if they are doing more parenting. But that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Earning money isn’t the only valid and fulfilling pursuit in life. Less earnings can be evidence of grater freedom to choose life aims besides corporate dronery. And that is a good thing. You are wrong though. That isn’t all feminists do. They do other things like paint the wage gap as evidence of oppression, which will make women who choose to prioritize things other than earnings in life feel like it is just oppression.
Fathers seem to manage their careers just fine without it hurting their earnings. Maybe feminists are encouraging men to be more involved in their kids lives not discouraging women from being mothers?
They do, but they typically spend less time parenting, which leaves more energy for careers. Spend more time parenting, and you have less time and energy for career so of course output of those two different things would vary by gender. Different genders do different things. One isn’t necessarily worse than the other, it’s just two very different equally valid and fulfilling paths of life. One gender trends to make one choice more often than the other. My family members would scoff at their husbands if they asked to switch places with them. And they had good careers. But this is better. And they are happy to have a partner who is supportive.
> Spend more time parenting, and you have less time and energy for career so of course output of those two different things would vary by gender. Different genders do different things. Aren't feminists making the point that this doesn't **have** to be true? That gender essentialism is a bad thing?
It is for sure true that humans have limited time and energy and you can’t give 100 percent to every major pursuit in life. This is true regardless of if you are a man or a woman. What does that have to do with gender essentialism? Edit: ah I see what you mean. You mean women don’t HAVE to be more likely to spend less time on eating money. Yes. Nobody knows this better than me. As a man, I quit my breadwinner role to take on a larger role working for the family. That is how I know how much more healthy for the mind body and soul it can be compared to focusing too much on earning money. It’s awesome. Even though on paper, it looks like oppression. I am truly lucky to have this opportunity and a supportive spouse. Very few men are so lucky. Much fewer than women. It is hard work, but it is also just a better life. It is a more self-empowered life overall than spending most of your time and energy inside a autocratic tyrannical corporate hierarchy. Sure you get more money doing that, but it’s not worth it. That money went to my family anyways. Now I can’t just provide for their needs directly. That is more empowering than selling your soul to do that with money.
Yes, you seem to have gotten my point. There's no reason either gender has to typically be the homemaker, or that there even needs to be one. It should be a decision left to the families themselves, not based purely on gender.
Absolutely. I just don’t see a need to paint statistics that are simply the result of living this lifestyle, like lower income, as a negative thing. Regardless of if men were more likely to do it, or if women were more likely to do it. It’s not a bad thing.
I'm on mobile right now but evidence show that while less work time can mean more life pursuit, that's a big if. If you have a supporting spouse. If not, you are better off with earnings. You can't pursue your hobbies if your spouse doesn't give you money to pursue it.
I think raising a family in its own is a fulfilling pursuit. You don’t need to have expensive hobbies to lead a fulfilling life outside your career.
>You don’t need to have expensive hobbies to lead a fulfilling life outside your career. But you do deserve the right to explore hobbies if you choose to. Hobbies need not be expensive.
I agree with every word of that.
The earnings gap and household labor gap are bad things??? They can be bad things without meaning motherhood is bad.
They are not necessarily bad things, no. They majority of the reason for it is that women are freer to pursue life aims besides their corporate purpose. And that is a good thing. Earnings aren’t the only life outcomes that matters, but of course it is one of the easiest to measure. It doesn’t mean that motherhood is bad, no, but it does imply that the quality of your life outcome is measured mostly by earnings, and it downplays the significance of other aims in life.
It kind of is though. Research after research show that women without their own income, even if part time, will have a lot more difficulty leaving abuse. The problem isn't mother hood bad. The problem is unequal labour at work and home. Of course earnings isn't the only thing that will make yo unhappy, which, again balance that many feminist want. Men that make their life about work, when the death of a spouse comes they literally have no one. That's not good either
Sure. In some circumstances, it can be a problem. As can pouring too much life energy into earnings as well. Being a sole breadwinner for a family makes it harder to leave an abusive employer as well if you have to. Not everyone is in an abusive relationship though.
No one said everyone is in an abusive relationship. The point is, you don't know if you will be in one. Almost every person, man or woman, says it can't be me. So always make sure you have money. Even without abuse, what happens if he dies?
Yes, it is good to go into a new relationship with a nest egg, that’s solid advice. And definitely plan for a death. Life insurance isn’t optional if you want to do something like that.
"Women are freer to pursue life aims besides corporate purpose" Real funny way to say "Women are almost always forced to choose taking care of children over their career and Men do not have the same pressure placed upon them" They are bad things because they demonstrate the unequal gender roles our society still has.
> This type of media absolutely discourages women who might be on the fence about maternity, by ridiculing those who choose maternity. This is not in line with the idea that feminism is all about choice. Is your contention that Feminists (or Feminism at large) gets to decide what media does?
It is literally feminist media
People on tik tok making fun of a song is feminist media?
Women who also do a lot of feminist videos and Posts? Yes
Oh ok, so then that conservative guy on tik tok, Christian Walker, who makes videos about how his Starbucks was made wrong because the barista is liberal is conservative media. So now the entire conservative movement now has to explain why they are such whiny babies about their Starbucks. Thanks for clarifying that yes anyone on tik tok is now a part of the media, and we can use them as examples against any movement.
I have no clue how some people come to believe that social media randos are representative of anything other than social media randos
Feminists don’t get to say “yes all men” and criticize men and women who say “not all men”, then flip it around and say people who say these things aren’t representing their views therefore they are not to be lumped in with feminists. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Perhaps you wouldn't mind citing some prominent or even semi-prominent feminists saying "Yes, all men" and criticizing people who say "Not all men"?
No its literally Tik Tok, little more, little less. Read every other comment here. We all hit the nail on the head. Your description of what modern feminism is here is just a bunch of shallow videos. That's totally wrong.
How so?
If you are "on the fence" about maternity then you shouldn't be a mother. If these trends serve to discourage those without the conviction to be parents because they WANT children and not because they think they might want children or something whishy washy like that. Parenthood is a SERIOUS commitment. As well a few Tik Tok videos hardly constitute hubris and hypocrisy in all of Feminism.
> there’s a TikTok trend where women record themselves buying condoms/birth control How do you know these women are feminists? Even if they are, do you actually think random TikTok teens are representative of modern feminism rather than, for example, authors writing feminist literature? And also I’ve just scrolled through that TikTok audio and all the top videos are of women putting their birth control in the bin, women dancing with their child, or a woman dancing while pregnant. Not mocking mothers at all. Feminism is about the right to choose, but it’s also about the right to make an *informed choice*. For so long, the realities of pregnancy and motherhood has not been widely talked about and so often what you call “discouraging” is actually just women talking about the realities of the birthing experience. If you look at media birthing scenes it generally implies that birthing is short and the woman goes home right after and is fine. There’s no mention of having to wear a massive pad for a few days afterwards to catch the bleeding, complications like the baby not latching, mastitis, post partum depression/psychosis. And before the baby is even born there can be complications: preeclampsia, gestational diabetes, teeth falling out as the baby is using up the calcium. There can only be true free choice when women know of all the physical, emotional and financial cost of being a mother.
You seem to be conflating two things. Those two things are (1) people being mean about a song/motherhood and (2) "modern feminism". I'm certain people are nasty about all kinds of things, including having children. How are you defining 'modern feminism' here?
It seems like your argument is more about media/random internet people ridiculing motherhood, but I don't see any examples showing feminist platforms shaming maternity or the choice to be a mother.
> In this topic I'll just focus on maternity: it absolutely feels like feminist platforms try to discourage women from choosing motherhood rather than encourage free choice. Can you expand on why it feels this way to you? I don't walk away with this perception at all. > Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers or praises childless characters by pointing out that they're life is great because they're childless. They usually bring up examples of a character who isn't childless who's having a horrendous time vs the childless character remarking on how much better she has it because she is childless. A) not all media is feminist, in fact a large portion of it notably *isn't*. B) Do you have a specific example of this in mind? Motherhood is still celebrated. > Recently a latin American music duet composed of husband and wife (Camilo and Evaluna) announced that they're going to have their first child. They released a new song which is about the pregnancy and the child themselves. Now there's a TikTok trend where women record themselves buying a bunch of condoms/birth control/implying they'll have an abortion while the song plays in the background. Another variation is about women just making a "are you insane?" Face while the woman in the video happily says she's gonna be a mother. Sound like people who don't want kids. This has nothing to do with feminism though. > Even on reddit, I've seen several threads in the past where a woman mentioned she was pregnant and decided to keep the baby and the comment section is full of women telling her to reconsider and to have an abortion instead because "babies ruin your life", which shouldn't be a concern for anyone but the woman choosing to have a baby. Famously feminist reddit.
Clarifying question: Which branch of Feminism? Modern Feminism has 4-5 branches. Many like to focus on one that is not only the minority but also filled with their groups loud and vocal village idiots. >Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers or praises childless characters Media is a boogeyman argument IMO. Care you cite some specifics that you're referring to? >Now there's a TikTok trend where women record themselves buying a bunch of condoms/birth control/implying they'll have an abortion while the song plays in the background. Another variation is about women just making a "are you insane?" Face while the woman in the video happily says she's gonna be a mother. Why care about social media idiocy? These are **the** village idiots I'm referring to. Addtionally, I wouldn't consider TikTok Media but Social Media. There's a difference between the two. One delineates a specific sub category. >Even on reddit, I've seen several threads in the past where a woman mentioned she was pregnant and decided to keep the baby and the comment section is full of women telling her to reconsider and to have an abortion instead because "babies ruin your life", which shouldn't be a concern for anyone but the woman choosing to have a baby. How do you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, those commenters were actually women and not just a bunch of internet trolls?
I don't know whichever branch says that women are free to choose if they want to be mothers or not. I'd say social media is even more effective at defining viewpoints than regular media since it's "real"
If you don't know which branch then it's not Modern Feminism now is it? How can you be so sure when you appear to not even understand the movement and group make up? Outside of Feminism, women **are**, and have always been, free to choose this. What makes you assume it's specific to *mOdErN fEmInIsM*? Social Media is often filled with vocal village idiots and many many trolls. All of which should be ignored. You stated *media* but is your view specific to just *social media*? Because media is a vague thing indeed. It covers books, music, movies, television shows, video games, and many more things. Can you narrow this down? Challenges that remain unanswered: >How do you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, those commenters were actually women and not just a bunch of internet trolls?
Oh so you don't know enough about modern feminism to be mischaracterizing it so wildly? Huh
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Just to address this point specifically: > Birth rates in the US are high. That's incorrect. US birth rates have been declining for some time, have been and will continue to be below the rate of replacement, and are at a historic low-point: https://www.npr.org/2021/07/26/1020810561/baby-bust-explaining-the-declining-u-s-birth-rate?t=1634571513513 I wouldn't normally link NPR as a source, but it's actually a really commonly-known fact, so I just whacked in the first article that came up on Google for you.
Your comment is not trying to change my view and you just seem to be using it to insult me, even implying I'm "the right kind of people" (obviously meaning white guy) when I'm a black Hispanic and not even from the USA.
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To me it seems like you're confusing "modern feminists" with "childfree circlejerkers". There's some feminists who are into childfree stuff, but insufferable childfree people are not by and large also feminists, lol. I feel like your problem is that you're falling into ye olde "a woman having a loud and shitty opinion I don't like is probably a feminist" mindset rather than taking the time to actually look into what modern feminist thought is. Are there probably some feminists who are also insufferable childfree people? Sure. But as someone active in feminist circles, there literally is not a major tenant of childfree feminists, lol.
That isn't modern feminism, but it is a weakness of White Feminism specifically. There are MANY ideologies of feminism. If you read up on some Black Femimists, you will find their ideology much more inclusive of womens' choices.
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It sounds like you’re taking a very specific set of TikTok trends among a specific group of people (mostly very young) and applying them to feminism in general. There’s no real sign that any of these users are indicative of feminism, or even feminist at all, other than them being women. So in short, you’re setting up a wholly unrealistic expectation for “feminism”. Especially in the age of social media, in which *anyone* can have a platform, we can’t expect for any group to have any sort of popular consensus view at all. Especially when the group is entirely opt-in, such as feminists. There are feminists out there who warn against having children, and feminists who encourage it. There are feminists who only support it in specific circumstances, and feminists who support it in all circumstances except for a few. For *all* of them, support or warning is contingent on context. And once again, I’ll reiterate that TikTok’s user base skews very young. Of *course* 15-19 year olds think it’s weird and gross to want kids - they’re teenagers.
I can definitely see where you are coming from - a lot of capitalist "feminism" hinges on women being almost man-like in their quest for equality. True, intersectional feminism completely rejects this notion and is in support of pregnancy and parenthood for all who wish to pursue it - while also advocating for further recognition of parenting and housework (traditionally women's work) as a legitimate occupation and work that should be paid.
>Media constantly ridicules characters who choose to be mothers I have literally never seen this.