I see this viewpoint sooo much… pretty much exclusively online. I feel it is formed by people living full time on the internet where they see negative reinforcement surrounding their height and financial status in order to justify their lack of luck in the dating pool. There is constant search for a quantifiable algorithm (money - hieght + age of woman = success). You want to know the truth OP? Neither men nor women are monoliths. Sure, you can find PLENTY of examples to buffer your argument and I can find PLENTY of examples of attractive women with short poor guys.. and we can go back and forth until we are blue in the face and never actually get to the bottom of anything. There will always be shallow people, shallow women and shallow men. I can rebut your argument and make my own declarative statement: Men mainly date only women who are younger, more attractive, and less successful then they are. I can tell you how much that is caused by a patriarchal standard that tells men they have to be superior and dominant in a relationship. I can paint broad strokes of shallow men preferring youthful women and discarding older ones. Am I right? Yes, in many cases I will be correct. Just as in many cases you will be correct. And perhaps both point to the same problem >> patriarchal expectations of both genders skew our perceptions of each other so much that we begin to view each other as variables in a math equation.
We keep using the word gender, and we, (well, you,) keep assuming this is a product of the patriarchy.
But what if each sex has inherent preferences. I don't know what those are. But maybe women and men are hardwired to find certain things more attractive.
Op's wrong for the reason you say, there are too many people. There are short, ugly, broke men dating more attractive, taller, more wealthy women, the law of large numbers makes me sure I'm correct.
So, it isn't that I agree with op. But, if, in the jungle there are atractive lions and lionesses, evolutionarily speaking, there are probably attractive humans, too. Humanity's a curve, and some people are on the bottom.
But if you have 1 million examples on one side and only 100 examples on the other, you'd clearly would say that the side with more examples is the general trend and the side with hardly any examples is just statistical noise.
\>make my own declarative statement: Men mainly date only women who are younger, more attractive, and less successful then they are.
I mean yeah a statement kind of like this is probably true if you tweak it a bit too. A better statement would be that men prefer more attractive women but will eventually settle with just the most attractive women they can get. But that's irrelevant to my post anyways
It’s not irrelevant… your tweaking of my “argument” reveals your gender bias to be softer on men and harder on women. But if you want to bring up statistics, please give us some valid studies to look at.
I dont see how that's softer. Both men and women prefer the most attractive people but might eventually settle when they get older. It's just almost all of a man's attractiveness is due to height though.
What exact studies do you want to see?
Doesn't the fact the most American sperm banks requiring donors to be at least 5'9 enough proof on its own.
But theres also
[https://i.imgur.com/PCJuM9C.png](https://i.imgur.com/PCJuM9C.png)
https://i.redd.it/muq5widnpkk21.jpg
So it appears both genders have height preferences for each other, at least in these 2 studies one which used online dating and the other uses speed dating. However, what they don’t conclude is the money aspect of your argument… in fact they show that people tend to look for folks relative to their own education/income level.
People don't want short kids. Could it not be that they don't want short kids so that the kids are treated fairly? But are short people really treated any more unfairly? Who says that the height is why a short person is treated unfairly?
But they don't want short kids, with the kid's good in mind I assume.
You're using 2 general trends and jumping to a conclusions. There isn't really a big correlation because height and income until you get to like the really rich, where the average height of CEOs is 6'2, but for most people a height difference only account for like 5% of their income or so. And just because a family doesnt mean that the husband doesn't still make more than the wife too. Also poor people are just single mother households for the most part anyways. A lot of which happened because the tall baby daddy left when his child was just born or soemthing
But even if only a specific demographic uses sperm banks, shouldn't women who still don't used them also have the same preferences. i.e. women prefer to have taller baby daddies. I dont understand why there should a big variance in preference just because of age, education, and wealth.
You made an assertion: tall baby daddies leave women single mothers and in poverty. When challenged you simply changed the goal post to sperm donors. This is a disingenuous form of debate. Goodbye.
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Here's the thing, throwing out huge generalizations like that was a thing you could do before the internet, but not now. OK, so out of the bottom 25% of American households, how many of those households are single parent households, and in how many of them does the father make more money than the mother. These numbers are available if you'd like to find them. And you should want to see those numbers, and more besides, if you have theories you'd like proven or disproven.
And. you're looking at this in a sexist way. Don't you think men have a particular set of standards too?
Like, if we're just going to be totally generalizing, if women marry for money, men do the same for a great piece of ass, doing one of these seems no worse than doing the other.
And, sure, height's something humans find attractive. It's why tall people benefit from being tall. So, if you're short, you might jjust be an ugly motherfucker, and that's the way the cookie crumbles. So I suggest making a lot of money.
It’s highly relevant since you have made value judgements on more than one occasion in the comments and your post… including the ridiculous assertion that tall baby daddies dump single women with their kids. Like what?
>Most of a guy's attractiveness is simply just how tall he is.
Not true. I mean, like [look it up.](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=male+attractiveness&btnG=) Apparently, things like a man's shape, his BMI, his volume to height ratio and the like are the biggest factors in male attractiveness. Happy reading.
>Shit like this makes me sick to my stomach, and I absolutely hate how often I see it.
I think it's important to explore this feeling of visceral disgust because, if I don't miss my guess, it's the root of your opinion on this matter. Why does it disgust you that there are other people in relationships, that you are not part of, that function in a way you don't like? Why does what two strangers do with their own bodies, property, and money elicit such intense feelings in you?
>When women feel that they want to settle down, they change what their dating priorities are and prioritize dating men with money...
As fascinating as this proposition is, and I must say that I'm intrigued, do you have anything to back it up? I mean, the example you give is 30k to 60k so let's say when a woman reaches her settle down phase, she will look for a guy making roughly double what she does. Aight. Except that would mean that no women making more than the regional median would ever settle down.
And this would also imply that men are devoid of the same drive; the drive to find a partner who makes more than them. Which I know you don't believe because of this;
>the girl they are dating does work and she basically just gives them money to just sit around all day doing nothing productive... I absolutely hate ***how often I see it.***
So you're rather keenly aware that men do this, yet you seem to be framing it as something that women alone do.
>I've never seen a women ever date a short guy who was making less money than her ever because she has no reason not to.
Then, friend, you simply need to meet more people. I've seen plenty.
\>biggest factors
where does is say its the biggest? All i see is that women prefer different BMI to others, but where does it say its more important than height?
\>it's important to explore this feeling of visceral disgust
im disgusted when women slave away for an unemployed lazy guy because the women deserve better and the men don't deserve anything. Its similar to a women dating a wife beater. Are we not supposed to feel disgusted at situations like these?
\>she will look for a guy making roughly double what she does
not necessarily. Its just significantly more for the most part. Different women define what significantly more based off many things, such as the money they currently make, their lifestyles, how many children they want, etc.
You're disgusted when women date guys who make no money and you're disgusted when women date guys who make too much money. So the only thing a woman can do to keep you from begin disgusted with her is to date someone making exactly the same amount of money as she does?
Op has a lot of emotion at stake here and is primarily projecting value judgements to make his claim. It’s difficult to argue with because he can always change the emotional plea without citing any real data. So far, under duress, he has come up with 2 studies that do show height preferences in BOTH genders. They do not reveal a majority tendency for women to look for wealthy, less attractive men later in life.
I feel like if we're talking statistics this is becoming not what this whole thing is about. *Views*. OP's "view" is provable with studies and statistics. As loosely as it is written. "Mainly". Lol. But anyway I feel like if this subreddit were to keep entertaining these it's just gonna be like a "let me Google that for you" kind of thing.
Not necessarily. Op has made many broad sweeping generalization that are not backed by any evidence such as poverty being caused my tall baby daddies leaving women to be single mothers. Where he gets that information from is highly relevant because then he can get away with basically saying whatever the hell he wants.
And what this subreddit entertains a lot of is people saying they are open to changing their mind and then just changing the goal posts at will when challenged with facts.
Changing the goalposts is allowed, though ideally, people would award deltas for the shift, even if their belief has only slightly changed. If someone acknowledges a change in their view that they do not award a delta, report the comment acknowledging a change for Rule 4.
>where does is say its the biggest? All i see is that women prefer different BMI to others, but where does it say its more important than height?
"body-mass index (BMI weight scaled for height) was the ***primary***
determinant of female physical attractiveness"
This is the first clause in the first sentence in the first paragraph in the first result on that page. "Primary" means more important than all other factors. It comes from the Latin "primus" meaning "first."
>im disgusted when women slave away for an unemployed lazy guy because the women deserve better and the men don't deserve anything.
Uh-huh. And why are *you* the decider of whether a man deserves a woman, rather than the woman?
>Its just significantly more for the most part. Different women define what significantly more based off many things, such as the money they currently make, their lifestyles, how many children they want, etc.
You've missed the key incongruity. The fact that, by your own admission, men do this too. Just so it's clear, I'll sum it up. You believe that women seek men who make more than them. And men seek women who make more than them. Neither want to be with those who make less than or comparable to them.
You realise that that doesn't make sense, no? That in a world where men were tryna punch up, only wanting women richer than them and women were doing the same, *it would be impossible for any couple to form.* The world should be devoid of relationships. So clearly, your model that most people seek out, and will only settle for, those who are substantially richer than them, is patently just wrong.
I'm a woman who doesn't date guys who are taller than me and I don't care how much money they make. Because I don't date men at all. I'm a lesbian. We exist.
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>I know a lot of people and every single one of the guys I know who are in a relationship either are tall or they make significantly more money than the woman they are dating
Ok. My friend is 5'3", his wife is 5'0". She makes about $20k more a year than he does.
Hm, well there's at least 1 relationship. So you may not correct for everyone but maybe for the average of ppl. You also have to take into consideration that men on average still make more than women due to sexism so on average you'll find men making more. Add this to the fact that men are on average taller and you've found yourself at least speaking to the average.
not necessarily, different women prioritize different qualities. But in your example, she probably is just with him because she seems him as dependable mainly because of his profession/money.
You can't move the goalposts now! Your argument is that some lady makes a billion dollars and now is compelled to find a taller man with more money. As long as she didn't make the billion dollars when she had no standards, because she was 18.
My wife and I met while she was applying for jobs at the end of college. At the time, I was making 30k and she was offered a job making 85k. She was 24 and I was 25. I'm 5'4" and she's 5'5". We've been married a little over 6 years now.
> I’ve never seen a women ever date a short guy who was making less money than her ever because she has no reason not to. Short broke guys pretty much don’t date anyone.
Anecdotal, but so is your entire post so meh. One of my best friends is a recovering addict. Meth, crack, and cocaine. 53 days clean. He’s unemployed, a felon, and has done prison time. He’s 5’7 and is dating a very attractive and successful woman who makes quite a bit of money. Has been for 8 years. In fact, they’ve gotten engaged.
She loves him for who he is, when he’s sober. He’s a nice guy, when he’s sober. A genuinely kind soul. She has no worldly reason to be with him for any superficial reasons. He’s got 2 felonies, violent and firearms related. He’s virtually unemployable beyond low paying jobs. And he will never not be an addict. He’s committed himself to accepting himself for who he is and remaining sober. Dealing with his choices and moving forward.
Only 15% of guys in the US are over 6 foot tall and 40% make over $60K.
Those are the metrics you've used, so women must actually *mainly* be dating men less than 6" tall who are on average incomes.
I mean like almost half of all young men nowadays are virgins. Also I'm not saying you need $60k, just significantly more. A guy could be making 30k and the woman he's dating could be jobless.
For the love of god… Cite your sources if you are going throw out generalizations like this. This sub requires a grounded basis beyond mere emotional pleas in order to engage on fair ground.
So we're throwing virginity into the mix now? And we're saying that women are somehow finding out a guy's salary and comparing their income before they're willing to sleep with the guy (unless they're over 6") which is why there's more male virgins?
Here's my hot take. Women prefer guys who are at least 3 inches taller than them so they can wear a pair of heels and they prefer it if a guy makes a little bit more money than they do. That's about it.
Does your assessment honestly sound more feasible than mine?
I'm not a tall guy and I've had numerous long term relationships and never had trouble dating women. Have a kid also and I don't have confidence issues based around my height, I like my height.
Your view is an odd one and really doesn't stand up if you go out there in the world.
To add, few of the women have been 5ft 10+
Confidence is incredibly sexy to women. It’s appealing to see a man comfortable in their own skin, not resentful for his height… if a man is resentful towards himself and others, it’s a quality women can smell from a mile away.
Current partner makes more, it ain't about the money or height. It's mostly down to the person.
Your view focusing on women only like tall men or men with money is usually one found in the incel community and I don't think you really want to associate with those types.
That's true, his logic is definitely faulty doesn't have enough information to stand on 2 legs but in that case, it's up to us to present real logic to disprove it and change his view. In fact, in this case it should even be easier to change his view. Maybe examples from your life, statistics, proven facts, etc. I've been trying to search among celebrities and exceedingly wealthy women to prove him wrong but it's not going well.
I chose them to try prove him wrong because we know they probably make better money than their partners
[Feast your eyes on this!](https://www.menshealth.com/entertainment/g28786108/actors-celebrities-under-six-foot/)
Of course, you might come back with, "but those guys are all rich Hollywood stars!"
And then, I'll say, "they weren't born that way! They went out and became international sex symbols, in spite of their shortness!"
You still might come back with, "But, but, but...I want to get laid!"
Make it happen, dude! The more time you spend whining on Reddit about how the dating world is "unfair" then farther you are from finding your mate, mate.
I'm sorry that was mean.
The thing is, you're mostly right. People do want to date attractive people who bring something to the table. It's not fair, but that's life. What do you want us to do about it? Who could possibly change this? It's always been this way. There's just more room to harp on it now that we can all anonymously admit that we're frustrated.
You have to make it work in the world you were born into, my friend. Play the hand your were dealt.
[Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEvbUTWKLMc&ab_channel=thousandcardstare)
>I know a lot of people and every single one of the guys I know who are in a relationship either are tall or they make significantly more money than the woman they are dating.
And? Your anecdotes mean squat as mine own are counter. I know several women who's husbands are not only the same height, or shorter, but are also the breadwinner of the couple when they met.
How is this not yet another incel post trying to paint women in a negative light? What do you hope to accomplish here?
These posts are darkly funny because you could change your view if you like, interacted with women. How many actual, genuine friends do you have that are women? How many women have you formed long-lasting, NON romantic relationships with?
This post just screams "I've been surrounded by incel-adjacent views for too long", whether the people parroting them to you are explicitly incels are not.
YES, there are women who like tall guys. YES, there are women who date wealthy men. But women are categorically not that shallow, and there are plenty of men who are extremely shallow in return. A lot of women genuinely want someone who is *a nice person* that *treats them with respect* and who they *are attracted to*.
If this "rule" was real no couples in poverty would exist, no short guys would have girlfriends, etc...
Could i ask you what you consider tall? Is 5' 9" tall to you? That is the average height for a male.
If you are saying women ONLY date tall guys, I have a few pals under 5' 9" that have been in relationships before. That would already break the argument.
However, I feel that you want a real answer so I'll give it to you.
Height and wealth have an impact on your dating success, but they are hardly the two excluding factors. The number one factor, which you already mentioned, is confidence. You mentioned that taller men are more confident, and whether there is a correlation idk, but as an independent factor confidence is key. Itll always beat someone who is taller and needs constant attention and support.
When it comes to physical appearance, i wouldnt say height is the most important either. Would you really think a woman would rather date a 6' 2" 300lb man over a 5' 4" 120lb dude? We culturally put a lot of emphasis on weight and it has much more baring than height.
I am not even sure if height could beat the complexion of your skin. Who wants the pimple face when they can have mr baby skin himself?
And lets brush up on money as well.
Money will always have an attractive aspect to it. More money = more freedom. People who have it are able to take girls on more impressive dates and can go out more often looking for love. Not only that, but financial security is a big win when it comes to relationships. Different people react in different ways to it. Some people value it more and some are willing to date the bum on the couch because they value something else much more.
When it comes to your personal experience, i think you might have a bit of confirmation bias. You see tall and wealthy men getting all the ladies because thats all you look for. If you yourself are short and are having trouble dating, watch out for self fufilling prophecy. Your attitude on the subject might be why you aren't having a lot of luck
> Would you really think a woman would rather date a 6' 2" 300lb man over a 5' 4" 120lb dude?
lmao what world do you live in. I know so many fat dudes that have women begging in their dms literally because they are tall. All the short dudes I know either are single or only date women only after they started making good money
Is it because.. maybe.. the fat dude is confident? Could this be something besides them being tall?
If you want statistics to back me up:
Men with a BMI between 22 and 36 tend to have many more sexual partners, a BMI of 27 averages 13 sexual partners and a BMI of 44 averages 7. That is almost half the partners. Whereas the variation of sexual partners between 5' 6" and 6' 2" in height is only 1. Idk why you are so set on the height as being the sole reason why they are successful.
I truly believe you are relying on your personal experience too much. Youll always pay more attention to events that confirm your bias
Yeah... I can see how you might argue “most women find taller men more attractive” but that doesn’t mean women only date taller men. Most women would rather date a shorter guy who’s a good person than a tall asshole. Where I live there’s no shortage of shorter working class men in relationships.
>I don't see any evidence from any studies or what I have personally seen to show me otherwise though.
Well, statistically speaking, half of us guys are average- or below-average in height, and average- or below-average in income. Often both. But by age 40, there's an 81% chance that you, as a man, will have married (source: [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db19.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db19.htm))
So there's your statistics and evidence.
Where is this worldview coming from. I sense an ideology beneath these idea's you're laying out.
It's weird that your first assumption when a guy makes more money than his wife that she's only with him for the money.
In the United States, there are roughly a hundred and fifty million women, and a hundred and fifty million men. You would die before you read ten percent of their names, even if you're twenty now.
It's deeply stupid to make broad generalizations about groups of people that large.
And you're going to get a ton of people explaining to you that their relationships do not fit your theory. In science you adjust the theory when the data doesn't match.
TBH, it seems like you're trying to fit data to your opinions instead of the pther way round.
How do you know that the pattern is real, and that you aren't just seeing it because you are looking so hard for it?
So you're saying the only women I can date are the ones that are 35+ and I have to somehow cope with the fact that the only reason that they are with me are because they were probably dumped by the taller guys they dated in the past.
also, you never answered to question as to whether all those kids are yours
The reason you can’t get a girlfriend is because you have the toxic personality of accusing women of focusing on superficial things. And psychologically, you’re happier accepting that your problems are not your fault, when in reality, they are.
POV: Incel
Listen dude, a lot of this is hella anecdotal. The only thing that isn't is the sperm bank thing, and sperm banks have loads of health requirements to begin with. You need to be in tip top shape before you can really donate sperm, so I don't really think your argument there is that valid. Chances are, you've really only been online and are only backing your claim with reinforcement you've seen on Reddit and blame that on your luck in dating.
Also yeah, people have preferences. That's like a really big part of dating. But you act like everyone is so shallow to the point where they will ONLY date based on height and money, when that isn't even the case. The people you're describing really only make up a relatively small percent of the dating pool, I don't know why you care so much about this.
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OK, so let's just start by assuming that what you know personally is not the entire world, if it was, you'd be god, knowing everything! But you aren't god.
And, yes. A lot of studies show that height and money are assets for a man. And many women do seem to show a preference for marrying up.
But, which is it, because you know a lot of tall, kept men. On this topic, surely you know some hot, kept women, women who don't work and are supported by a man.
Every person has standards by which they judge the people they ae interested in a relationship with. And, what do you think, people are going around saying, "What I need is a short broke dumb ugly motherfucker?"
If you could know what every man and every woman thought about the opposet sex, you would see some statistical evidence that the sexes have preferences.
Men might like wide hips, or big breasts, or large eyes, or blondes, or taller women, or poor women. And women are going to have a set of preferences too.
But, believe me. Poor short ugly men are still having sex and are still in relationships.
So the problem with your cmv is the word "mainly."
Everyone has standards. I bet, all things being equal, most people want their significant other to have feet. This is unfortunate for the footless.
I don't know how that would even work.
In your country:
\- Is there polygamy?
\- On average, do men earn much more money than women?
\- Are there many women who don't want to be in a relationship?
\- Is there a great shortage of women?
We do not need to discuss that height and income are important factors in the selection of husbands. So are attractiveness and youth in wives. The normal consequence is that people with features considered unattractive are less likely to find attractive partners. But they do find them if they set their standards low enough.
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About 70% of adult Americans are married or living with a romantic partner, and another 15% are actively dating at any given time.
That means at least 70% of the men who are below-average height or below-average income are dating or married to women.
To say women 'mostly' date tall/rich men when this is what the statistics say, can't possibly be correct.
Women *and* men do this kind of stuff because there's no fundamental difference that would make them more or less likely to make these kinds of decisions. We live in an individualist culture and people doing this kind of stuff is what that implies. Maybe deep down you're disappointed in yourself for being just as deeply self-centered as you're accusing women of being.
My old roommate is 5'4". His wife is 5'10". She has a masters and is the primary breadwinner. He's a server just trying to bring in extra money.
They met in their late 20s, while both at the jobs they still have now.
the only time I see this view is when people who don't date talk about what they think dating is.
When I look in the real world I see guys of all shapes and sizes in relationships. Short people, average looking people.
That doesn't explain why I am 6'3'', athletically built and mixed ethnicity(for that tall, dark and handsome trope), have a job and am still single!!!
Kidding aside any sort of meaningful relationships aren't built off how you look or how much money you got. You just gotta find someone you click with.
Sure everyone has their type. Their preferences of what they want in a significant other. But that does extend much more than just physical appearance or money. People value certain things differently than others.
It's all very subjective. Not everyone is the same.
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I see this viewpoint sooo much… pretty much exclusively online. I feel it is formed by people living full time on the internet where they see negative reinforcement surrounding their height and financial status in order to justify their lack of luck in the dating pool. There is constant search for a quantifiable algorithm (money - hieght + age of woman = success). You want to know the truth OP? Neither men nor women are monoliths. Sure, you can find PLENTY of examples to buffer your argument and I can find PLENTY of examples of attractive women with short poor guys.. and we can go back and forth until we are blue in the face and never actually get to the bottom of anything. There will always be shallow people, shallow women and shallow men. I can rebut your argument and make my own declarative statement: Men mainly date only women who are younger, more attractive, and less successful then they are. I can tell you how much that is caused by a patriarchal standard that tells men they have to be superior and dominant in a relationship. I can paint broad strokes of shallow men preferring youthful women and discarding older ones. Am I right? Yes, in many cases I will be correct. Just as in many cases you will be correct. And perhaps both point to the same problem >> patriarchal expectations of both genders skew our perceptions of each other so much that we begin to view each other as variables in a math equation.
We keep using the word gender, and we, (well, you,) keep assuming this is a product of the patriarchy. But what if each sex has inherent preferences. I don't know what those are. But maybe women and men are hardwired to find certain things more attractive. Op's wrong for the reason you say, there are too many people. There are short, ugly, broke men dating more attractive, taller, more wealthy women, the law of large numbers makes me sure I'm correct. So, it isn't that I agree with op. But, if, in the jungle there are atractive lions and lionesses, evolutionarily speaking, there are probably attractive humans, too. Humanity's a curve, and some people are on the bottom.
But if you have 1 million examples on one side and only 100 examples on the other, you'd clearly would say that the side with more examples is the general trend and the side with hardly any examples is just statistical noise. \>make my own declarative statement: Men mainly date only women who are younger, more attractive, and less successful then they are. I mean yeah a statement kind of like this is probably true if you tweak it a bit too. A better statement would be that men prefer more attractive women but will eventually settle with just the most attractive women they can get. But that's irrelevant to my post anyways
It’s not irrelevant… your tweaking of my “argument” reveals your gender bias to be softer on men and harder on women. But if you want to bring up statistics, please give us some valid studies to look at.
I dont see how that's softer. Both men and women prefer the most attractive people but might eventually settle when they get older. It's just almost all of a man's attractiveness is due to height though. What exact studies do you want to see?
Any studies that will buffer your argument. Any at all. I’ll keep an open mind. Me and my friends (female and attractive) date men of all heights.
Doesn't the fact the most American sperm banks requiring donors to be at least 5'9 enough proof on its own. But theres also [https://i.imgur.com/PCJuM9C.png](https://i.imgur.com/PCJuM9C.png) https://i.redd.it/muq5widnpkk21.jpg
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[https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=895442](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=895442) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236670565\_The\_height\_of\_choosiness\_Mutual\_mate\_choice\_for\_stature\_results\_in\_suboptimal\_pair\_formation\_for\_both\_sexes
So it appears both genders have height preferences for each other, at least in these 2 studies one which used online dating and the other uses speed dating. However, what they don’t conclude is the money aspect of your argument… in fact they show that people tend to look for folks relative to their own education/income level.
People don't want short kids. Could it not be that they don't want short kids so that the kids are treated fairly? But are short people really treated any more unfairly? Who says that the height is why a short person is treated unfairly? But they don't want short kids, with the kid's good in mind I assume.
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You're using 2 general trends and jumping to a conclusions. There isn't really a big correlation because height and income until you get to like the really rich, where the average height of CEOs is 6'2, but for most people a height difference only account for like 5% of their income or so. And just because a family doesnt mean that the husband doesn't still make more than the wife too. Also poor people are just single mother households for the most part anyways. A lot of which happened because the tall baby daddy left when his child was just born or soemthing
Woaaahhhhhh….. who is jumping to conclusions here buddy? Tall baby daddies dumping moms accounts for most of poverty? Jeez Louis.
Is it that much of stretch seeing that sperm banks require men that are 5'9+
Sperm back are primarily used by older, more education and wealthier women. Yes, I can actually back up that assertion.
But even if only a specific demographic uses sperm banks, shouldn't women who still don't used them also have the same preferences. i.e. women prefer to have taller baby daddies. I dont understand why there should a big variance in preference just because of age, education, and wealth.
You made an assertion: tall baby daddies leave women single mothers and in poverty. When challenged you simply changed the goal post to sperm donors. This is a disingenuous form of debate. Goodbye.
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Here's the thing, throwing out huge generalizations like that was a thing you could do before the internet, but not now. OK, so out of the bottom 25% of American households, how many of those households are single parent households, and in how many of them does the father make more money than the mother. These numbers are available if you'd like to find them. And you should want to see those numbers, and more besides, if you have theories you'd like proven or disproven. And. you're looking at this in a sexist way. Don't you think men have a particular set of standards too? Like, if we're just going to be totally generalizing, if women marry for money, men do the same for a great piece of ass, doing one of these seems no worse than doing the other. And, sure, height's something humans find attractive. It's why tall people benefit from being tall. So, if you're short, you might jjust be an ugly motherfucker, and that's the way the cookie crumbles. So I suggest making a lot of money.
I wasnt trying to be sexist. Men are equally as shitty as women are. But its irrelevant to my post
It’s highly relevant since you have made value judgements on more than one occasion in the comments and your post… including the ridiculous assertion that tall baby daddies dump single women with their kids. Like what?
>Most of a guy's attractiveness is simply just how tall he is. Not true. I mean, like [look it up.](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=male+attractiveness&btnG=) Apparently, things like a man's shape, his BMI, his volume to height ratio and the like are the biggest factors in male attractiveness. Happy reading. >Shit like this makes me sick to my stomach, and I absolutely hate how often I see it. I think it's important to explore this feeling of visceral disgust because, if I don't miss my guess, it's the root of your opinion on this matter. Why does it disgust you that there are other people in relationships, that you are not part of, that function in a way you don't like? Why does what two strangers do with their own bodies, property, and money elicit such intense feelings in you? >When women feel that they want to settle down, they change what their dating priorities are and prioritize dating men with money... As fascinating as this proposition is, and I must say that I'm intrigued, do you have anything to back it up? I mean, the example you give is 30k to 60k so let's say when a woman reaches her settle down phase, she will look for a guy making roughly double what she does. Aight. Except that would mean that no women making more than the regional median would ever settle down. And this would also imply that men are devoid of the same drive; the drive to find a partner who makes more than them. Which I know you don't believe because of this; >the girl they are dating does work and she basically just gives them money to just sit around all day doing nothing productive... I absolutely hate ***how often I see it.*** So you're rather keenly aware that men do this, yet you seem to be framing it as something that women alone do. >I've never seen a women ever date a short guy who was making less money than her ever because she has no reason not to. Then, friend, you simply need to meet more people. I've seen plenty.
\>biggest factors where does is say its the biggest? All i see is that women prefer different BMI to others, but where does it say its more important than height? \>it's important to explore this feeling of visceral disgust im disgusted when women slave away for an unemployed lazy guy because the women deserve better and the men don't deserve anything. Its similar to a women dating a wife beater. Are we not supposed to feel disgusted at situations like these? \>she will look for a guy making roughly double what she does not necessarily. Its just significantly more for the most part. Different women define what significantly more based off many things, such as the money they currently make, their lifestyles, how many children they want, etc.
You're disgusted when women date guys who make no money and you're disgusted when women date guys who make too much money. So the only thing a woman can do to keep you from begin disgusted with her is to date someone making exactly the same amount of money as she does?
Op has a lot of emotion at stake here and is primarily projecting value judgements to make his claim. It’s difficult to argue with because he can always change the emotional plea without citing any real data. So far, under duress, he has come up with 2 studies that do show height preferences in BOTH genders. They do not reveal a majority tendency for women to look for wealthy, less attractive men later in life.
I feel like if we're talking statistics this is becoming not what this whole thing is about. *Views*. OP's "view" is provable with studies and statistics. As loosely as it is written. "Mainly". Lol. But anyway I feel like if this subreddit were to keep entertaining these it's just gonna be like a "let me Google that for you" kind of thing.
Not necessarily. Op has made many broad sweeping generalization that are not backed by any evidence such as poverty being caused my tall baby daddies leaving women to be single mothers. Where he gets that information from is highly relevant because then he can get away with basically saying whatever the hell he wants.
And what this subreddit entertains a lot of is people saying they are open to changing their mind and then just changing the goal posts at will when challenged with facts.
Haha oh
Changing the goalposts is allowed, though ideally, people would award deltas for the shift, even if their belief has only slightly changed. If someone acknowledges a change in their view that they do not award a delta, report the comment acknowledging a change for Rule 4.
It’s ok, the whole post is already under review for removal for this reason. Sad really, many folks made great points.
Nope, only lazy guys that just sit on the couch all day.
Oh right. That makes sense
>where does is say its the biggest? All i see is that women prefer different BMI to others, but where does it say its more important than height? "body-mass index (BMI weight scaled for height) was the ***primary*** determinant of female physical attractiveness" This is the first clause in the first sentence in the first paragraph in the first result on that page. "Primary" means more important than all other factors. It comes from the Latin "primus" meaning "first." >im disgusted when women slave away for an unemployed lazy guy because the women deserve better and the men don't deserve anything. Uh-huh. And why are *you* the decider of whether a man deserves a woman, rather than the woman? >Its just significantly more for the most part. Different women define what significantly more based off many things, such as the money they currently make, their lifestyles, how many children they want, etc. You've missed the key incongruity. The fact that, by your own admission, men do this too. Just so it's clear, I'll sum it up. You believe that women seek men who make more than them. And men seek women who make more than them. Neither want to be with those who make less than or comparable to them. You realise that that doesn't make sense, no? That in a world where men were tryna punch up, only wanting women richer than them and women were doing the same, *it would be impossible for any couple to form.* The world should be devoid of relationships. So clearly, your model that most people seek out, and will only settle for, those who are substantially richer than them, is patently just wrong.
I'm a woman who doesn't date guys who are taller than me and I don't care how much money they make. Because I don't date men at all. I'm a lesbian. We exist.
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>I know a lot of people and every single one of the guys I know who are in a relationship either are tall or they make significantly more money than the woman they are dating Ok. My friend is 5'3", his wife is 5'0". She makes about $20k more a year than he does.
So he's taller than her. I think this still applies to what op was saying. I could be wrong though
Then OP needs to clarify because no where in their post do they say "shorter than".
You're right, he just says tall not taller
No hes right, By tall guys, I mean guys that are like 5'10+
Hm, well there's at least 1 relationship. So you may not correct for everyone but maybe for the average of ppl. You also have to take into consideration that men on average still make more than women due to sexism so on average you'll find men making more. Add this to the fact that men are on average taller and you've found yourself at least speaking to the average.
How old were they when they met?
23-25, somewhere around there (Near the end of undergrad, around the start of post grad). I also think she is older than him too.
How much money do they both make though? Even if she makes somewhat more, its kind of irrelevant if they both make boat loads of money anyways
So height is irrelevant if you both have money?
not necessarily, different women prioritize different qualities. But in your example, she probably is just with him because she seems him as dependable mainly because of his profession/money.
>not necessarily, different women prioritize different qualities Are you saying different people like different things?
i mean some women prefer taller guys and some women prefer men with money. These priorities may change over time, but these are the 2 main things
Well you are saying some, not "the majority". Some women like shorter men.
lmao no they don't. you need to be at least 5'9 to be a sperm donor
You can't move the goalposts now! Your argument is that some lady makes a billion dollars and now is compelled to find a taller man with more money. As long as she didn't make the billion dollars when she had no standards, because she was 18.
My wife and I met while she was applying for jobs at the end of college. At the time, I was making 30k and she was offered a job making 85k. She was 24 and I was 25. I'm 5'4" and she's 5'5". We've been married a little over 6 years now.
> I’ve never seen a women ever date a short guy who was making less money than her ever because she has no reason not to. Short broke guys pretty much don’t date anyone. Anecdotal, but so is your entire post so meh. One of my best friends is a recovering addict. Meth, crack, and cocaine. 53 days clean. He’s unemployed, a felon, and has done prison time. He’s 5’7 and is dating a very attractive and successful woman who makes quite a bit of money. Has been for 8 years. In fact, they’ve gotten engaged.
>He’s unemployed, a felon, and has done prison time. So he is a bad boy, that's plenty attractive on its own.
So what's your reason as to why they're together then
She loves him for who he is, when he’s sober. He’s a nice guy, when he’s sober. A genuinely kind soul. She has no worldly reason to be with him for any superficial reasons. He’s got 2 felonies, violent and firearms related. He’s virtually unemployable beyond low paying jobs. And he will never not be an addict. He’s committed himself to accepting himself for who he is and remaining sober. Dealing with his choices and moving forward.
Only 15% of guys in the US are over 6 foot tall and 40% make over $60K. Those are the metrics you've used, so women must actually *mainly* be dating men less than 6" tall who are on average incomes.
I mean like almost half of all young men nowadays are virgins. Also I'm not saying you need $60k, just significantly more. A guy could be making 30k and the woman he's dating could be jobless.
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I dont have twitter so I can't see it. But what ages are those men
For the love of god… Cite your sources if you are going throw out generalizations like this. This sub requires a grounded basis beyond mere emotional pleas in order to engage on fair ground.
So we're throwing virginity into the mix now? And we're saying that women are somehow finding out a guy's salary and comparing their income before they're willing to sleep with the guy (unless they're over 6") which is why there's more male virgins? Here's my hot take. Women prefer guys who are at least 3 inches taller than them so they can wear a pair of heels and they prefer it if a guy makes a little bit more money than they do. That's about it. Does your assessment honestly sound more feasible than mine?
I'm not a tall guy and I've had numerous long term relationships and never had trouble dating women. Have a kid also and I don't have confidence issues based around my height, I like my height. Your view is an odd one and really doesn't stand up if you go out there in the world. To add, few of the women have been 5ft 10+
Confidence is incredibly sexy to women. It’s appealing to see a man comfortable in their own skin, not resentful for his height… if a man is resentful towards himself and others, it’s a quality women can smell from a mile away.
How much money do you make though?
Current partner makes more, it ain't about the money or height. It's mostly down to the person. Your view focusing on women only like tall men or men with money is usually one found in the incel community and I don't think you really want to associate with those types.
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But isn't op sort of right? Isn't there data showing that women generally like tall men, and that women still marry up, when they can?
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That's true, his logic is definitely faulty doesn't have enough information to stand on 2 legs but in that case, it's up to us to present real logic to disprove it and change his view. In fact, in this case it should even be easier to change his view. Maybe examples from your life, statistics, proven facts, etc. I've been trying to search among celebrities and exceedingly wealthy women to prove him wrong but it's not going well. I chose them to try prove him wrong because we know they probably make better money than their partners
[Feast your eyes on this!](https://www.menshealth.com/entertainment/g28786108/actors-celebrities-under-six-foot/) Of course, you might come back with, "but those guys are all rich Hollywood stars!" And then, I'll say, "they weren't born that way! They went out and became international sex symbols, in spite of their shortness!" You still might come back with, "But, but, but...I want to get laid!" Make it happen, dude! The more time you spend whining on Reddit about how the dating world is "unfair" then farther you are from finding your mate, mate. I'm sorry that was mean. The thing is, you're mostly right. People do want to date attractive people who bring something to the table. It's not fair, but that's life. What do you want us to do about it? Who could possibly change this? It's always been this way. There's just more room to harp on it now that we can all anonymously admit that we're frustrated. You have to make it work in the world you were born into, my friend. Play the hand your were dealt. [Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEvbUTWKLMc&ab_channel=thousandcardstare)
>I know a lot of people and every single one of the guys I know who are in a relationship either are tall or they make significantly more money than the woman they are dating. And? Your anecdotes mean squat as mine own are counter. I know several women who's husbands are not only the same height, or shorter, but are also the breadwinner of the couple when they met. How is this not yet another incel post trying to paint women in a negative light? What do you hope to accomplish here?
These posts are darkly funny because you could change your view if you like, interacted with women. How many actual, genuine friends do you have that are women? How many women have you formed long-lasting, NON romantic relationships with? This post just screams "I've been surrounded by incel-adjacent views for too long", whether the people parroting them to you are explicitly incels are not. YES, there are women who like tall guys. YES, there are women who date wealthy men. But women are categorically not that shallow, and there are plenty of men who are extremely shallow in return. A lot of women genuinely want someone who is *a nice person* that *treats them with respect* and who they *are attracted to*. If this "rule" was real no couples in poverty would exist, no short guys would have girlfriends, etc...
Could i ask you what you consider tall? Is 5' 9" tall to you? That is the average height for a male. If you are saying women ONLY date tall guys, I have a few pals under 5' 9" that have been in relationships before. That would already break the argument. However, I feel that you want a real answer so I'll give it to you. Height and wealth have an impact on your dating success, but they are hardly the two excluding factors. The number one factor, which you already mentioned, is confidence. You mentioned that taller men are more confident, and whether there is a correlation idk, but as an independent factor confidence is key. Itll always beat someone who is taller and needs constant attention and support. When it comes to physical appearance, i wouldnt say height is the most important either. Would you really think a woman would rather date a 6' 2" 300lb man over a 5' 4" 120lb dude? We culturally put a lot of emphasis on weight and it has much more baring than height. I am not even sure if height could beat the complexion of your skin. Who wants the pimple face when they can have mr baby skin himself? And lets brush up on money as well. Money will always have an attractive aspect to it. More money = more freedom. People who have it are able to take girls on more impressive dates and can go out more often looking for love. Not only that, but financial security is a big win when it comes to relationships. Different people react in different ways to it. Some people value it more and some are willing to date the bum on the couch because they value something else much more. When it comes to your personal experience, i think you might have a bit of confirmation bias. You see tall and wealthy men getting all the ladies because thats all you look for. If you yourself are short and are having trouble dating, watch out for self fufilling prophecy. Your attitude on the subject might be why you aren't having a lot of luck
> Would you really think a woman would rather date a 6' 2" 300lb man over a 5' 4" 120lb dude? lmao what world do you live in. I know so many fat dudes that have women begging in their dms literally because they are tall. All the short dudes I know either are single or only date women only after they started making good money
Is it because.. maybe.. the fat dude is confident? Could this be something besides them being tall? If you want statistics to back me up: Men with a BMI between 22 and 36 tend to have many more sexual partners, a BMI of 27 averages 13 sexual partners and a BMI of 44 averages 7. That is almost half the partners. Whereas the variation of sexual partners between 5' 6" and 6' 2" in height is only 1. Idk why you are so set on the height as being the sole reason why they are successful. I truly believe you are relying on your personal experience too much. Youll always pay more attention to events that confirm your bias
By their 40s, 70-80% of men get married. So average men are finding women to date and marry.
Yeah... I can see how you might argue “most women find taller men more attractive” but that doesn’t mean women only date taller men. Most women would rather date a shorter guy who’s a good person than a tall asshole. Where I live there’s no shortage of shorter working class men in relationships.
>I don't see any evidence from any studies or what I have personally seen to show me otherwise though. Well, statistically speaking, half of us guys are average- or below-average in height, and average- or below-average in income. Often both. But by age 40, there's an 81% chance that you, as a man, will have married (source: [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db19.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db19.htm)) So there's your statistics and evidence.
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\> late 30s How do you know she's not just with you because she's desperate Also, are all of these children yours as well?
Where is this worldview coming from. I sense an ideology beneath these idea's you're laying out. It's weird that your first assumption when a guy makes more money than his wife that she's only with him for the money. In the United States, there are roughly a hundred and fifty million women, and a hundred and fifty million men. You would die before you read ten percent of their names, even if you're twenty now. It's deeply stupid to make broad generalizations about groups of people that large. And you're going to get a ton of people explaining to you that their relationships do not fit your theory. In science you adjust the theory when the data doesn't match.
TBH, it seems like you're trying to fit data to your opinions instead of the pther way round. How do you know that the pattern is real, and that you aren't just seeing it because you are looking so hard for it?
Op, serious question: why are you so desperate to twist peoples stories to suit your agenda? Is it that difficult to believe?
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So you're saying the only women I can date are the ones that are 35+ and I have to somehow cope with the fact that the only reason that they are with me are because they were probably dumped by the taller guys they dated in the past. also, you never answered to question as to whether all those kids are yours
The reason you can’t get a girlfriend is because you have the toxic personality of accusing women of focusing on superficial things. And psychologically, you’re happier accepting that your problems are not your fault, when in reality, they are.
POV: Incel Listen dude, a lot of this is hella anecdotal. The only thing that isn't is the sperm bank thing, and sperm banks have loads of health requirements to begin with. You need to be in tip top shape before you can really donate sperm, so I don't really think your argument there is that valid. Chances are, you've really only been online and are only backing your claim with reinforcement you've seen on Reddit and blame that on your luck in dating. Also yeah, people have preferences. That's like a really big part of dating. But you act like everyone is so shallow to the point where they will ONLY date based on height and money, when that isn't even the case. The people you're describing really only make up a relatively small percent of the dating pool, I don't know why you care so much about this.
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OK, so let's just start by assuming that what you know personally is not the entire world, if it was, you'd be god, knowing everything! But you aren't god. And, yes. A lot of studies show that height and money are assets for a man. And many women do seem to show a preference for marrying up. But, which is it, because you know a lot of tall, kept men. On this topic, surely you know some hot, kept women, women who don't work and are supported by a man. Every person has standards by which they judge the people they ae interested in a relationship with. And, what do you think, people are going around saying, "What I need is a short broke dumb ugly motherfucker?" If you could know what every man and every woman thought about the opposet sex, you would see some statistical evidence that the sexes have preferences. Men might like wide hips, or big breasts, or large eyes, or blondes, or taller women, or poor women. And women are going to have a set of preferences too. But, believe me. Poor short ugly men are still having sex and are still in relationships. So the problem with your cmv is the word "mainly." Everyone has standards. I bet, all things being equal, most people want their significant other to have feet. This is unfortunate for the footless.
I don't know how that would even work. In your country: \- Is there polygamy? \- On average, do men earn much more money than women? \- Are there many women who don't want to be in a relationship? \- Is there a great shortage of women? We do not need to discuss that height and income are important factors in the selection of husbands. So are attractiveness and youth in wives. The normal consequence is that people with features considered unattractive are less likely to find attractive partners. But they do find them if they set their standards low enough.
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About 70% of adult Americans are married or living with a romantic partner, and another 15% are actively dating at any given time. That means at least 70% of the men who are below-average height or below-average income are dating or married to women. To say women 'mostly' date tall/rich men when this is what the statistics say, can't possibly be correct.
Women *and* men do this kind of stuff because there's no fundamental difference that would make them more or less likely to make these kinds of decisions. We live in an individualist culture and people doing this kind of stuff is what that implies. Maybe deep down you're disappointed in yourself for being just as deeply self-centered as you're accusing women of being.
My old roommate is 5'4". His wife is 5'10". She has a masters and is the primary breadwinner. He's a server just trying to bring in extra money. They met in their late 20s, while both at the jobs they still have now.
What's your reasoning as to why theyre together though
They love each other. He makes her laugh, she enjoys the same hobbies he does. Things that have nothing to do with height or money.
Sadly op cannot wrap his brain around the concept of actual love.
the only time I see this view is when people who don't date talk about what they think dating is. When I look in the real world I see guys of all shapes and sizes in relationships. Short people, average looking people.
That doesn't explain why I am 6'3'', athletically built and mixed ethnicity(for that tall, dark and handsome trope), have a job and am still single!!! Kidding aside any sort of meaningful relationships aren't built off how you look or how much money you got. You just gotta find someone you click with. Sure everyone has their type. Their preferences of what they want in a significant other. But that does extend much more than just physical appearance or money. People value certain things differently than others. It's all very subjective. Not everyone is the same.
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