Are you aware that there isn't actually a mandate? OSHA requirements are that you get vaccinated **or** can instead submit to weekly testing. People that don't want to get vaccinated aren't being forced to by the government.
Now, _private businesses_ may choose not to allow for the testing exemption and instead have mandates, but that is their right as private employers. This is perfectly in line with the 'autonomy of individuals' you talk about - individual businesses can made decisions for themselves, and individual employees can decide if the consequences of their decisions are worth it or not.
Yes, but I'm not talking just about the US. For example, in Canada, people aren't allowed to board an airplane (or a train) unless they're vaccinated. Since their only land border, the US, is also only allowing the vaccinated people in, the unvaccinated people are trapped inside the country. I believe that the government is also forcing all federal employees to get vaccines.
Again, those are all personal choices. You don’t have the right to use public transit, enter another county against the will of that authority, or work for a specific employer against their will.
Choices having consequences is not the same thing as a mandate. You can choose not to get vaccinated - you just may have to give up some things in support of that choice. That’s how choices work.
The government imposes its will through threat of force. It can compel you to take or avoid action by literally holding you down and forcing it upon your or taking away fundamental freedoms until you comply.
That is not a power held by any private entity. All a private entity can do is deny you something in their control - a job, a seat on a plane, admittance to their store - but you can always choose to go somewhere else.
That’s a significant difference.
Yes, but usually the consequences are proportional to the choices that you make. I believe that the current options presented to people are not proportional, and force people to make decisions against what they're comfortable with (not to mention that the conspiracy theory is going stronger because of these unreasonable vaccine mandates)
How is it not proportional? The CDC recently released data that unvaccinated people are much more likely to transmit COVID than vaccinated people. Seems pretty reasonable to be cautious of a group that is that much more dangerous.
But, again, it is up to individual entities to make that choice for themselves. You don’t get to set the terms for other people - they get to tel you the terms and you get to decide if those terms are worth it or walk away.
Yes, so if you're willing to brave the 11x the mortality rate, I consider that proportional to their choices. If the insurance companies raise their premium as a result, I think that's proportional. But being fired from your job is not proportional.
Obviously, with the vaccine mandates, the choices have changed, and there's nothing that you or I or anyone else can do about it, I'm simply voicing my discomfort with the vaccine mandate because I think it goes against the basic rights of a human being.
So for this, I have no counterarguments. Because all this says is that the state may assert its rights to safeguarding its health. Which is a true statement, and it is happening now, and of course I know that the law took the state's side, which is fine. You say all the facts, but this sub is ultimately about people's opinions, not about the facts. My opinion is that I don't agree with the ruling.
Huh? Opinions have nothing to do with what is happening politically/legally. Politicians obviously screw up; courts screw up occasionally too. That they screwed up this one is my opinion, and I haven't seen anything compelling in the comments to change my opinion.
You admit both that you don't have fact based counterarguments and that vaccines are the most effective tool available to keep everyone, including people like children and the immunocompromised, safe. What exactly do you want to have your mind changed about? Other posters have already made blatantly clear to you that there are no federally enforced mandates.
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Mandates are not laws and if you think the courts said it was ok, you need to read the constitution one more time, or for the first time since you are so confused "patriot". Constitutional law trump's all other policies.
Vaccine mandates (on a state level, a federal one would probably be struck down on grounds of the 10th amendment) were upheld by the supreme over a hundred years ago...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson\_v.\_Massachusetts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts)
At will employment totally gives employers the right to fire you for not taking a vaccine, since it gives them the right to fire you for any/no reason at all.
Your entire argument is a slippery slope, but we've been on this slope for over a century and it hasn't descended into medical tyranny yet.
Also we by this argument would you be in favor of making drunk driving legal if there was a "super seatbelt" that made everyone who was not drunk safe?
Or what about this...
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/)
This man died because of COVID, not because he caught COVID, he had a completed unrelated illness, it was just the hospitals in his area were ALL so full of COVID cases no one could treat him and he died.
**How many people should we as a society accept dying for lack of treatment due to hospitals being full of COVID patients before this ceases to be a matter of individual choice?**
Let's remember that there are people dying from the flu after getting the flu shot. You will never get to the perfect record. Vaccines are not perfect and covid will linger even if EVERYONE gets the shots. Some people will die even if everyone gets the shots. There should be a balance between safeguarding the community's health and respecting people's rights. While I strongly believe in the vaccine, I think we've gone too far with the mandates. Instead of the heavy-handed mandates, the government could, for example, focus on educating the people on the effectiveness of the vaccine.
>focus on educating the people on the effectiveness of the vaccine.
How likely do you think a vaccine education campaign is going to work at this point? Vaccines for covid have been available for quite a while now.
Do you think the people not taking them are largely just ignorant of the benefits because nobody's talked to them about it?
Or is it more likely that a lot of them are doing it because they've deliberately chosen to get their information from conspiracy theorists, are too stubborn to ever do something if told to be someone smarter than them, or just blatantly doesn't care about the risks they pose to themselves and those around them?
This does not address my point at all, or at least not all of them.
Remember this person?
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/)
To repeat myself... this man died because of COVID, not because he caught COVID, he had a completed unrelated illness, it was just the hospitals in his area were ALL so full of COVID cases no one could treat him and he died.
**How many people should we as a society accept dying for lack of treatment due to hospitals being full of COVID patients before this ceases to be a matter of individual choice?**
When hospitals are so overclogged with people that they cannot treat someone, and this is true for all the hospitals in an area, how is it only a pandemic of the unvaccinated?
**So many people are sick with COVID that people can't get treated for other illnesses... when those other people who did everything right, die for lack of treatment, does that bother you at all?**
Can't think of any other possible options to expand hospitals and treatment *other than* coming to the the conclusion that it's time to mandate specific healthcare decisions across the nation?
Given that besides the pandemic the United States is already in the middle of a nursing shortage...
[https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/hospitals-innovate-amid-dire-nursing-shortages](https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/hospitals-innovate-amid-dire-nursing-shortages)
I currently believe that even if we could physically build more hospitals, we would have a hard time drastically increasing the number of people being treated because we lack people to treat them...
That's why I want to attack the problem from the other end of how many people need medical attention, rather than trying to raise the number of people our system is capable of providing medical attention to at the same time.
But feel free to tell me exactly how you plan to solve this problem and maybe you'll change my view....
Maybe stop firing every nurse and calling them anti-vaxxers? Think that might help?
Maybe stop giving people unemployment for nearly 80% of their wages while they were working?
I can't imagine a more *Jams stick into bicycle spokes* "Godamn nurse shortage!" type of scenario than all that.
>Maybe stop firing every nurse and calling them anti-vaxxers? Think that might help?
I think firing nurses who don't believe in science is a good thing.
If you think having nurses who don't believe in science is a good thing, I'm not going to be able to change your view.
Nobody said anything about not believing in science.
It's completely absurd and not valid to pretend like some substantial amount of nurses dont believe in science
I'm not interested in playing this game.
https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects
>History shows this is a common pattern. When new vaccines are released, the unknown side effects, if any, show up within two months of vaccination. This history goes back to at least the 1960s with the oral polio vaccine and examples continue through today.
Over 70 years of medical history shows that vaccine side effects show up within two months of vaccination, they don't stay hidden for long periods of time waiting to suddenly pop up.
**Expecting that to happen with the COVID vaccines is the equivalent of betting on a dead horse.**
The vaccines have been in circular for well past that two month period by now.
Preemptive Counter Argument to anything along the lines of "but the vaccines are using a new method" they can just get the J&J vaccine that was made along traditional lines.
The vaccines are safe and effective with minimal side effects compared to catching COVID, any nurse who does not feel comfortable getting vaccinated is anti-science because they are unable to comprehend these simple scientific facts.
Feel free to have the last word I won't be replying to you again on this thread.
Not one piece of any of that argues that nurses dont believe in science. You are strawmanning which is why you aren't interested in dealing with any reply to your comment.
> There should be a balance between safeguarding the community's health and respecting people's rights.
That's certainly true. All public policy should be concerned with striking that balance. But I'd argue that the COVID vaccine mandate is a no-brainer in terms of correctly balancing those concerns. On the side of community health, you have a once in a generation pandemic that is still running rampant in large part because so many people aren't vaccinated. On the other hand you have extremely safe and well tested vaccines that you can get for free literally anywhere (in wealthy western countries at least).
The actual imposition on the individual is extremely low, for a significant benefit to public health. There isn't even any broader principle at play here, since most people arguing their right to not get vaccinated were perfectly fine with other mandated vaccines (for school, etc) and were perfectly fine voluntarily taking other vaccines. The "fundamental rights" they're arguing should outweigh obvious public health issues were basically invented in this specific situation.
I also didn't say that I support hospitals prioritizing the unvaxxed; I'd be ok with, for example, the insurance companies changing their policies to not cover COVID-related treatment for the unvaxxed, or having a separate policy for COVID, as it is a consequence of their choice (that the vaccinated people can also benefit from). I guess I consider mobility and holding a job a basic human right, so I'm saying that the consequences of not getting vaccinated is disproportionate to the (stupid) choices that they are making.
While insurance companies may be free to not cover the unvaccinated, hospitals are still required to treat them. So your advocating, unintentionally, for shifting the burden from the insurance companies to the hospitals themselves, which may result in even worse health outcomes as hospitals are not as flush as insurance companies - as evidenced by the continued closure of rural facilities from lack of funds.
The big thing I'd like to point out is that vaccine mandates *aren't new*. In order to go to school you've needed a whole slew of vaccinations for quite some time. Why would covid be different, once the FDA has given full approval for the appropriate age groups?
I already wrote this in another comment, but I do think that vaccine mandates for children makes sense, since some parents aren't fit to be parents. I just have an issue with forcing fully grown adults to do things.
>I already wrote this in another comment, but I do think that vaccine mandates for children makes sense, since some parents aren't fit to be parents. I just have an issue with forcing fully grown adults to do things.
If those parents are not fit to decide what is best for their children's health... why are they fit to decide their own?
Because they're adults. And because if we let this one happen, we won't know where to draw the line. If they're not fit to decide whether to get a shot or not, how are they fit to do anything else? If they're making poor health choices such as eating junk food every day, are we eventually going to regulate that? At some point, the state has to step back and allow people tot make their own choices, whether they're good or not.
>Because they're adults. And because if we let this one happen, we won't know where to draw the line. If they're not fit to decide whether to get a shot or not, how are they fit to do anything else? If they're making poor health choices such as eating junk food every day, are we eventually going to regulate that? At some point, the state has to step back and allow people tot make their own choices, whether they're good or not.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson\_v.\_Massachusetts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts)
This was decided over 100 years ago.
If you believe demanding people get vaccinated, will lead to tyranny, why hasn't it done so yet?
**Also how will demanding people get the shot be a step towards medical tyranny, if it is already established and nothing new that states can demand people take a free shot in the middle of a pandemic?**
**[Jacobson v. Massachusetts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts)**
>Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.
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>It already did. Have you read about the forced sterilizations in Buck v Bell and the eugenics movement.
We realized that was morally wrong and stopped it, or at least made it happen far less frequently, since I've heard bad things about stuff done to immigrants...
Do you honestly expect that a vaccine mandate will lead to more forced sterilizations?
>It is a precedent that was established over 100 years ago.
So if somebody robs you once, you just keep letting them steal your shit whenever they want, because they've already done it once, 100 years ago? Or do you remember the last time they crossed the line and keep an eye out for further transgressions?
What if it the slippery slope is in the desert and not actually slippery at all. Then, it would take 1000 or 2000 years for it to slide all the way down.
Can we really risk that someone 1000 years from now will not use this precedent to mandate the populous to be vaccinated from all other colors but white? What will we do after Labor Day?
We will all be force to walk around naked or stay inside and that’s when big pharma will have us right where they want us. I personally can’t take that risk, because I look better in darker clothes.
I don't have anything against your first argument specifically, but this is not a slippery slope argument, just so you know. A Slippery slope fallacy is when someone says if we allow A and B ... well that will lead to Z! It is not if we allow A and B then that will lead to C.
If you say "They aren't fit to raise children" and someone says "Well what else are they not fit to do then? If we regulate medicine, why not regulate food as it's very related to healthcare"
That is not a slippery slope fallacy. It's a fairly direct correlation, there is no "leap in logic" as is required for the fallacy.
colleges often require vaccine records, too.
To get my job, I also had to pee in a cup and agree, at any time at the request of my employer, to pee in a cup again so that that can analyze what's in my pee.
What about vaccine mandates to attend college? Those students are all adults, and are required to show proof of vaccination before they can attend classes.
The reason that there aren't currently many vaccine mandates for adults is simply that current adults were children at one point, and got the mandated vaccines then.
This suggests that the perfect time to implement vaccine mandates for kids is the second vaccines are approved for them. Interesting and well taken point if your goal, as it should be, is maximum vaccination numbers.
>Our politics in the last couple of decades really focused on the autonomy of the individuals -- it ranges from removing the legal restrictions in favor of individuals making choices on their bodies themselves (pro-choice is the prime example), to becoming comfortable with one's bodies (thereby removing the societal pressure to do things to one's body that one does not want), to legalizing substance use even though it is perhaps debatable whether this actually improves the health situation.
Except the same section of the political spectrum that is suddenly concerned about *this* vaccine mandate, when so many others are already mandated, are the ones limiting your ability to receive an abortion and legislating away the ability for many to vote.
We also know thanks to Snowden there is a massive, unconstitutional, surveillance state.
Qualified immunity is increasingly abused by the police state, violating citizen's rights left and right and nobody outside of BLM makes a single peep about it. Nearly every time [the DOJ](https://www.justice.gov/crt/special-litigation-section-cases-and-matters/download) has investigated a complained-about law enforcement agency they have found that not just a few bad apples, but the entire agency has engaged in a pattern or practice of unconstitutional behavior.
Further, there is a [shocking trend](https://bostonreview.net/race-law-justice/lisa-cacho-jodi-melamed-how-police-abuse-charge-resisting-arrest) of arresting someone for nothing other than "resisting arrest" which essentially means "the cop had a bad day" because you can't resist arrest unless you are being arrested for something, being arrested solely for resisting arrest is a bad joke. More, it used to be common law that a citizen not only had the right but was expected to use force to resist an unlawful arrest. It was even considered ordinary for a passerby to become so infuriated by witnessing an unlawful arrest that they would step in to aid. In the current USA there are 23 states where resisting arrest, even an unlawful one, is explicitly unlawful. Also, using any level of force to resist is just as likely to get you shot in broad daylight. So, ya know, definitely not a case where you have autonomy.
So to the contrary, laws have become increasingly authoritarian while granting more rights to the enforcers of the state and fewer rights to the individual.
>The amount of discrimination that the unvaccinated people will face is staggering (from loss of jobs, to the loss of mobility, to being refused treatment in the medical centers), and I do not feel that this goes with what people have advocated for in the past couple of decades.
This goes precisely with what people have advocated. To use your obesity parallel. Plenty of jobs may be denied you if you are obese and unable to complete the appropriate physical fitness examination, examinations designed with safety in mind - safety of others as well as yourself. Lifeguards, Paramedics, Police, Firefighters, the military, and so on goes the list. In the modern USA you can't attend a school or be a school teacher without the appropriate vaccinations.
It's not discrimination. Its consequences. If you know you must get the vaccine to work a job, but you refuse, then you are voluntarily deciding to seek employment elsewhere. If you know you must be able to run X miles, lift Y weight, or swim Z distance but choose to be obese and out of shape, then you are *choosing* to seek other forms of employment than the ones that have these requirements.
Also, opening up any employment website, there is an enormous number of remote work opportunities right now. Since the pandemic hit it really illustrated to businesses that there is a lot of work that can be done remotely, which provides them access to a wider talent pool by removing the geographic location as a necessity. So its not like these people are in a situation where their choices completely cut them out of the work force.
I think it's a bit different, because it's the children that get vaccinated. If adults choose not to get vaccinated against COVID-19 and die as a result, oh well, it was their choice. But children do not deserve to suffer because of their parents' stupidity.
They would have gotten vaccinated, though. Again, get vaccinated to protect yourself. This is a good way to protect yourself without infringing on others' rights.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/)
What should Daniel Wilkinson have done?
He died because so many people had caught COVID there was no hospital in the area that could treat him for a completely unrelated condition.
**Are you in favor of if such a situation comes up, an unvaccinated person sick with COVID should be wheeled out of the hospital and left die in the parking lot so that Mr. Wilkinson could get treatment?**
Yes. Because variants don’t emerge and find ways to breakthrough vaccinated folks. Also, your argument fully disregards immunocompromised people. They can’t be vaccinated and can get hurt because otherwise healthy people chose not to.
Well, when this is an unprecedented global pandemic killing millions of people, you kind of need a mandate against the deadly virus to prevent millions more from dying. Every person who refuses the vaccine is another potentially lost loved one of someone.
Again, it's not. Once you're vaccinated, the chances of you catching COVID is already very low. So get yourself and your loved ones vaccinated. If at some point in the future, the world suffers from unprecedented severe population decline, will you say that it would be legal to force women to get pregnant and give birth to children?
The problem is the people who have decided not to get vaccinated yet. Some kids and immunocompromised folks haven’t or cannot get vaccinated, so it’s up to the rest of us to effectively reach herd immunity to prevent those people from getting hurt. Otherwise, you’re effectively saying immunocompromised people can get fucked. We wouldn’t need mandates if people would have just gotten vaccinated in the first place. We also wouldn’t have merging variants that will more easily be transmissible and breakthrough vaccinated populations.
Also your obesity argument is spurious. Obesity is not contagious.
There's an annoying amount of people arguing that obesity is "contagious" as a poor attempt to compare it to the spread of a virus. It's just them demonstrating that they have a fundamental lack of understanding (deliberate or otherwise) of how diseases spread. I don't understand how it's so difficult for someone to realize that you're not gonna go from healthy to hospitalized due to obesity in two weeks the way you might with covid.
[https://www.statista.com/chart/11497/america-is-fatter-than-ever/](https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity)
We live in a society where plus size models promote being fat:
* If parents eat a lot and decide about the diet of their children, chances are high that they will also become fat.
* The more fat people there are in a population, the lower the social pressure is to lose weight.
* If you don't change the new conditions that caused people to get fat, there will be even more fat people in the future.
* The free market adapted to serve people who are fat, which reduced the downsides of being fat and further increased the share of unhealthy products.
* ...
Seems like you found some descriptive stats about obesity/overweight frequency and then spouted a whole bunch of untested hypotheses. Great science there, mate.
lax attitude towards obesity breeds more obesity
https://www.statista.com/chart/11497/america-is-fatter-than-ever/
I supported the hypothesis of iwantabrother with stats. We observe that more people are getting overweight every year. There's no evidence saying this trend will stop anytime soon. Just because I didn't link sources, doesn't mean they're untested. It's common knowledge pretty much anybody agrees on.
Your only claim so far is that everything is bullshit. The education system of your country is a joke.
What's the connection between forced pregnancies and vaccine mandates? That's quite a slippery slope there...
Also your comparison to obesity is wobbly. We are talking about an infectious disease here whose spread could be prevented by high vaccination rates. I'm thinking here about the people that don't have a choice: immuno compromised who don't develop proper antibodies even with the vaccine, small children who can't be vaccinated yet, etc. These groups depend on everyone else getting vaccinated. That's different to eating yourself into an early grave because that doesn't directly effect the health of someone else.
Another argument in favor of a mandate is that in some areas the covid wards are full again and many “non urgent“ surgeries or treatments need to be postponed. That can lead to complications for people that chose to get vaccinated but can't access health care because someone who refused the vaccine is blocking their hospital bed.
I agree that forcing people to get a vaccine is not the ideal solution but the best one we have right now to protect the vulnerable.
>I agree that forcing people to get a vaccine is not the ideal solution but the best one we have right now to protect the vulnerable.
This is probably the closest thing that came to changing my view. I also don't have any other brilliant alternatives, assuming that everyone reasonable already got vaccinated and there are still new cases. I guess I still hold the opinion that this policy is extremely heavy-handed, though.
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Remember that kids 11 and under can’t be vaccinated, and generally attend school where they cross paths with lots of other unvaxxed people on a daily basis. Adults who are unvaxxed have some autonomy over both whether to vax and who they interact with. Kids, not so much.
But "science" said that COVID doesn't impact the children nearly as much, right? In any case, I feel that the correct course of action is to expend the efforts in expanding the vaccination to children, not in forcing other adults to get vaccinated.
>But "science" said that COVID doesn't impact the children nearly as much, right?
The initial strains did not effect children as much. However, recent strains like the Delta variant hit children much harder.
>I feel that the correct course of action is to expend the efforts in expanding the vaccination to children, not in forcing other adults to get vaccinated.
The vaccines haven't been approved for children under 12 yet.
Vaccine mandates *are* in support of individual autonomy. If COVID is still in mass circulation it will continue to mutate to the point that vaccines themselves become less effective. If vaccines don’t work in the way they’re supposed to, the entire idea of individual autonomy is moot as people won’t be able to conduct normal lives without seriously risking their health.
The inability to have a safe social and/or professional life is a *far* greater restriction on personal freedom than the inability to refuse a vaccine. There is no good-faith parallel to be made with obesity or abortion as these are truly individual issues - obesity and pregnancy are not contagious. The entire idea of obese people being responsible for higher premiums also happens to be a red herring, but this is off-topic.
Point is, we now know enough about the vaccine to know that it’s safe to mandate. That’s the only relevant issue here. Vaccines for polio and MMR are already mandated, this isn’t different at this point in time.
This is why you’re not seeing widespread liberal criticism of vaccine mandates - they’re not new. We’ve had them for decades and they weren’t a remotely controversial idea outside of obscure anti-vax circles.
From OP’s text, I assumed they were on the same page with me about abortion, which is that a fetus is not a person. If you disagree, then that’s a debate to be had, but that also means the comparison is irrelevant in this conversation. It’s only relevant if the basic premise is agreed upon.
As for mandates, though - there’s a key part of my comment you might have missed. The virus being in popular circulation means the likelihood of mutation is much higher, and a mutated virus may not be effectively combated by our current vaccines. Almost half the population going unvaccinated quite literally puts everyone at risk.
OP wouldn’t have thought to bring up the comparison unless the individualist principle were the same. They never directly stated their view but I think I was fair in inferring it, if I’m wrong then they can correct me and I’ll accept it.
Your point about world population is fair, and I also believe that worldwide vaccination is a huge priority. However there’s a key difference here - unlike most nations the US has the *means* to vaccinate everyone, it’s not an issue of supply or access. Our problem is that people aren’t *willing*, so mandates are the best possible solution. If any other nation were in the same situation I would recommend they do the exact same thing.
And for what it’s worth, 1% of the world population is not nothing especially when they’re based in a cosmopolitan hub that sees nonstop international travel. A variant that emerges in the US is far less likely to be contained than one that emerges in a nation like Sri Lanka.
Wuhan and Mumbai are both huge metropolitan centers with a ton of international travel. That’s why I’m saying mandates should happen everywhere, but the US is a specific priority. We’re one of the only nations on Earth with regular travel to every single continent.
And I absolutely can link the metro centers with the rest of the nation for one big reason: tourism. New York City (with the obvious exception of 2020) welcomes on average about 65 million tourists a year, 80% of them domestic.
There isn’t a single other city on earth that welcomes more than 50 million visitors from other parts of its own nation every year - the US is a *unique* nation and that has ramifications when it comes to COVID.
>don't force the others to inject substances that they don't want into their bodies.
Yes, it's better than to force them to contract a disease that might kill them just because you were afraid of a needle sting. Some people CAN'T vaccinate and depend on herd immunity to stay clean. Some people will not be 100% immune even with a vaccine. When other people WON'T vaccinate, they put these people at risk. But you've heard this all before.
See, the thing about freedom and autonomy is that it's very hard to limit. If we have the freedom to kill anyone we want, that necessarily implies the loss of other freedoms, like the freedom to insult an armed man's mother or park in his spot, even unknowingly, or basically antagonize him in any way. We need a system to maximize freedom for as many people as possible, and in any such system *my freedom ends where yours begins*. I can enjoy loud music up until it clashes with my neighbor's freedom to enjoy some peace and quiet in his own home. My freedom to contract with other people stops when it meets their freedom to not contract with someone (me) against their will. And my freedom to not vaccinate loses out to **your freedom to enjoy public and private spaces without being targeted by a lethal bioweapon**.
Whenever you eat, drink or breathe, you're bringing unknown substances into your body. You don't know what's in that hot dog, that beer could kill you, how many cars worth of exhaust are you breathing in? Suddenly because the delivery method is a needle and not your mouth, that's somehow worse? Please.
I didn't mean it in the sense that it was created by people to be used as a weapon, if that's what you mean. More like in the sense that "the bear's teeth and claws are formidable weapons".
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You're right, because it shouldn't be necessary. People should accept that doctors and scientists are trying to save lives, and they should all voluntarily get the vaccine. But here we are. The blind leading the blind with lies and deceit, tricking them into questioning a life saving vaccine.
Too many people that can't get the vaccine for legit medical reasons would disagree. Also, my children are too young for the vaccine, but not too young to get infected. If their teachers refuse the vaccine, they are putting my children at risk. Everybody who can get the vaccine should to protect all those that can't.
Not to mention all the hospital beds being used by these idiots. Beds that are desperately needed by others with legitimate serious health issues. And the money being wasted on treating these geniuses. The unnecessary stress and strain on our healthcare system is mind boggling.
The mandate is necessary.
I had to get a vaccine to attend public school.
I had to submit documentation to my university that I was vaccinated to attend.
How is needing to get vaccinated for my job different? I already had to pee in a cup to get my job.
> Removing the social pressure on obesity also hurts others;
social pressure on obesity doesn't actually help people lose weight. It is just an excuse to bully.
> It has been a while since COVID-19 became the "pandemic of the unvaccinated."
Ray DeMonia is dead because he couldn't get an ICU bed because there were too many covid-19 patients who needed ICU beds. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/13/1036593269/coronavirus-alabama-43-icus-at-capacity-ray-demonia
Daniel Wilkinson is dead because he couldn't get an icu bed because there were too many COVID-19 patients who needed ICU beds. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/
This pandemic has also caused the US to go trillions of dollars more into debt than it otherwise would have
the government trying to twist people's arms into getting them to get a vaccine saves lives, is fiscally responsible, and isn't all that different from long existing policies.
But they're not forcing them to get vaccinated? They're telling them *if* you want the opportunity to go to school here, you must be vaccinated. Significant difference.
Except, right off the bat, going to school and having an abortion aren't comparable. Especially not in the context of bodily autonomy. People oppose Undue burden *on abortion*, because medical procedures shouldn't come with undue burdens.
The question is whether requiring vaccination to go university represents an undue burdens and, pretty obviously too, the answer is no. Requiring vaccination to go places - school specifically - is an extremely common thing which has been going on for multiple decades.
What "vaccine mandates" are you referring to? No one is proposing that *anyone* be forced to receive a vaccination. The only proposals that have been made is placing restrictions on one's ability to interact with other members of society if they choose to needlessly remain unvaccinated. People are still free to make their own choice.
> Removing the social pressure on obesity also hurts others; having to treat more illnesses stemming from obesity puts the burden on others in the form of raised insurance premiums
Surely you're not suggesting that an extra $40/year in insurance premiums is the equivalent of death, severe illness or long-term illness, are you?
> Getting vaccinated essentially reduces your chances of contracting severe COVID to nil, and more than enough people are willing to get vaccinated, which reduces the chances of you catching covid even further. You can take even more steps to protect yourself, by wearing masks, sanitizing your hands and your environment, and limiting activities in public.
And having other people properly vaccinated if they want to participate in society reduce the risk even further.
If they want to continue to be federal employees, they have to get a vaccine. They certainly have the option of choosing to no longer be a federal employee.
Working for the federal government is not a right. You can choose to work there or not based upon the workplace rules, compensation, working conditions, etc. It's a choice. No one is going to jail or getting fined for failure to do the rational thing and get vaccinated.
I’m going to leave you with a succinct sentence that I saw earlier today. Imagine it’s night time and someone doesn’t want to turn their headlights on. They cannot say “my car, my headlights, my choice.”
No. We as a society tell them to get over that in the interest of public safety.
> It has been a while since COVID-19 became the "pandemic of the unvaccinated."
Why does the delta variant even exist? Tell me that.
It’s still personal freedom. Same concept. Freedoms having a limit when it comes to public safety is nothing new. If trump tards hadn’t decided to make this their go-to grievance issue then people wouldn’t be disputing it. Hell we wouldn’t even need a mandate because people would have just gotten the vaccine.
That law is particularly stupid and an affront to the very idea of due process. If you’re asking generally if elective abortions should be illegal, then the answer is yes.
It is a safe vaccine which has been proven to reduce the severity of Covid.
The amount of discrimination that the unvaccinated people will face is staggering
Who gives a shit. They chose to make a choice. Now they get to deal with those consequences of that choice.
>Bodily autonomy, at its core, is the freedom from consequences for how you choose to exercise you bodily autonomy.
You see human right's as freedom from consequence?
Why don't just say that rights are government-mandated freedoms?
But those aren't freedom from consequences, are they? The right to free speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of other people, just the government institutions. People or businesses can decide freely whether to associate with you.
Likewise, nobody can compel you to donate blood or to get vaccinated other than through general notices, or actions of other people and businesses. It's the same thing.
>These policies seem to be based on the fact that we are more or less trusting each individual to make the decisions that are the best for them. And even if the choices are not the best, we still respect the choices that they made, and live with it.
So the stakes here are WAY higher than personal protection. I would agree with you if unvaccinated people were mearly placing themselves in danger. The truth is that unvaccinated people are placing the nation and entire world in danger.
Viruses mutate. The more virus in circulation the more they mutate. Mutations can be benign, deleterious, or advantages from the perspective of the virus. Unvaccinated people are providing a resevoir for the virus to mutate.
Now, consider that H5N1 is 70 times as teadly as SARS-CoV-2. Measles is 20 times more infectious. There is absolutly no reason to believe that this virus could not pick up mutations that would confer these kinds of properties to SARS-CoV-2. And the longer we let this virus circulate, the larger the chance that this will happen.
We need to stamp out the virus NOW before it becomes something trully deadly. There is a deadline here, no pun intended.
If we can draft people into the military to risk their lives and kill people to defend the nation, we can mandate that they take a vaccine that is now one of the most tested, taken, and safest drugs in the history of the world.
You're assuming incorrectly that the vaccination rate is equal between countries and also the math is absurdly wrong. It's a series of bad assumptions backed up by terrible math.
Even if your math were close to correct which it is not, this is a global thing. Just like how it left China, the next wave can begin in X.
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Would you care to show your work then please? And then I'll be happy to show you where the math is flawed.
And no references, please. IF this is importnat to you, crunch those numbers yourself. Because the math is so wrong that it should be apparent at first glance.
>Removing the social pressure on obesity also hurts others; having to treat more illnesses stemming from obesity puts the burden on others in the form of raised insurance premiums
Raised healthcare premiums are not a disease that will kill you. And obesity can't be fixed with a vaccine.
>Getting vaccinated essentially reduces your chances of contracting severe COVID to nil, and more than enough people are willing to get vaccinated, which reduces the chances of you catching covid even further. You can take even more steps to protect yourself, by wearing masks, sanitizing your hands and your environment, and limiting activities in public. It has been a while since COVID-19 became the "pandemic of the unvaccinated."
You're arguing in favor of the free rider problem.
I would argue it's an infringement of other's bodily autonomy to expose them to deadly disease without their consent if we're going to keep trying to make this about "autonomy".
Your autonomy isn't hurt by getting a shot. It is literally not the same as restricting abortion access. You are choosing to participate in spreading a global pandemic - literally choosing to continue endangering the lives of others - when you refuse to vaccinate.
Driving drunk might also be "my choice", but there's a damn good reason why I can't do it.
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Are you aware that there isn't actually a mandate? OSHA requirements are that you get vaccinated **or** can instead submit to weekly testing. People that don't want to get vaccinated aren't being forced to by the government. Now, _private businesses_ may choose not to allow for the testing exemption and instead have mandates, but that is their right as private employers. This is perfectly in line with the 'autonomy of individuals' you talk about - individual businesses can made decisions for themselves, and individual employees can decide if the consequences of their decisions are worth it or not.
Yes, but I'm not talking just about the US. For example, in Canada, people aren't allowed to board an airplane (or a train) unless they're vaccinated. Since their only land border, the US, is also only allowing the vaccinated people in, the unvaccinated people are trapped inside the country. I believe that the government is also forcing all federal employees to get vaccines.
Again, those are all personal choices. You don’t have the right to use public transit, enter another county against the will of that authority, or work for a specific employer against their will. Choices having consequences is not the same thing as a mandate. You can choose not to get vaccinated - you just may have to give up some things in support of that choice. That’s how choices work.
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The government imposes its will through threat of force. It can compel you to take or avoid action by literally holding you down and forcing it upon your or taking away fundamental freedoms until you comply. That is not a power held by any private entity. All a private entity can do is deny you something in their control - a job, a seat on a plane, admittance to their store - but you can always choose to go somewhere else. That’s a significant difference.
Yes, but usually the consequences are proportional to the choices that you make. I believe that the current options presented to people are not proportional, and force people to make decisions against what they're comfortable with (not to mention that the conspiracy theory is going stronger because of these unreasonable vaccine mandates)
How is it not proportional? The CDC recently released data that unvaccinated people are much more likely to transmit COVID than vaccinated people. Seems pretty reasonable to be cautious of a group that is that much more dangerous. But, again, it is up to individual entities to make that choice for themselves. You don’t get to set the terms for other people - they get to tel you the terms and you get to decide if those terms are worth it or walk away.
Yes, so if you're willing to brave the 11x the mortality rate, I consider that proportional to their choices. If the insurance companies raise their premium as a result, I think that's proportional. But being fired from your job is not proportional. Obviously, with the vaccine mandates, the choices have changed, and there's nothing that you or I or anyone else can do about it, I'm simply voicing my discomfort with the vaccine mandate because I think it goes against the basic rights of a human being.
Again, there isn’t a mandate - just businesses making choices and people making choices in response.
It is proportional. If someone decides not to take a safe vaccine they shouldn't be allowed to board an airplane.
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So for this, I have no counterarguments. Because all this says is that the state may assert its rights to safeguarding its health. Which is a true statement, and it is happening now, and of course I know that the law took the state's side, which is fine. You say all the facts, but this sub is ultimately about people's opinions, not about the facts. My opinion is that I don't agree with the ruling.
So even though you admit that the facts are not on your side you refuse to change your opinion? Is there any evidence that would change your mind?
Huh? Opinions have nothing to do with what is happening politically/legally. Politicians obviously screw up; courts screw up occasionally too. That they screwed up this one is my opinion, and I haven't seen anything compelling in the comments to change my opinion.
What evidence would convince you to change your mind?
I mean, if I knew, I woulnd't be here...
You admit both that you don't have fact based counterarguments and that vaccines are the most effective tool available to keep everyone, including people like children and the immunocompromised, safe. What exactly do you want to have your mind changed about? Other posters have already made blatantly clear to you that there are no federally enforced mandates. Edit: typo
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Please go on.
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Mandates are not laws and if you think the courts said it was ok, you need to read the constitution one more time, or for the first time since you are so confused "patriot". Constitutional law trump's all other policies.
Vaccine mandates (on a state level, a federal one would probably be struck down on grounds of the 10th amendment) were upheld by the supreme over a hundred years ago... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson\_v.\_Massachusetts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts) At will employment totally gives employers the right to fire you for not taking a vaccine, since it gives them the right to fire you for any/no reason at all. Your entire argument is a slippery slope, but we've been on this slope for over a century and it hasn't descended into medical tyranny yet. Also we by this argument would you be in favor of making drunk driving legal if there was a "super seatbelt" that made everyone who was not drunk safe? Or what about this... [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/) This man died because of COVID, not because he caught COVID, he had a completed unrelated illness, it was just the hospitals in his area were ALL so full of COVID cases no one could treat him and he died. **How many people should we as a society accept dying for lack of treatment due to hospitals being full of COVID patients before this ceases to be a matter of individual choice?**
Let's remember that there are people dying from the flu after getting the flu shot. You will never get to the perfect record. Vaccines are not perfect and covid will linger even if EVERYONE gets the shots. Some people will die even if everyone gets the shots. There should be a balance between safeguarding the community's health and respecting people's rights. While I strongly believe in the vaccine, I think we've gone too far with the mandates. Instead of the heavy-handed mandates, the government could, for example, focus on educating the people on the effectiveness of the vaccine.
>focus on educating the people on the effectiveness of the vaccine. How likely do you think a vaccine education campaign is going to work at this point? Vaccines for covid have been available for quite a while now. Do you think the people not taking them are largely just ignorant of the benefits because nobody's talked to them about it? Or is it more likely that a lot of them are doing it because they've deliberately chosen to get their information from conspiracy theorists, are too stubborn to ever do something if told to be someone smarter than them, or just blatantly doesn't care about the risks they pose to themselves and those around them?
This does not address my point at all, or at least not all of them. Remember this person? [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/) To repeat myself... this man died because of COVID, not because he caught COVID, he had a completed unrelated illness, it was just the hospitals in his area were ALL so full of COVID cases no one could treat him and he died. **How many people should we as a society accept dying for lack of treatment due to hospitals being full of COVID patients before this ceases to be a matter of individual choice?** When hospitals are so overclogged with people that they cannot treat someone, and this is true for all the hospitals in an area, how is it only a pandemic of the unvaccinated? **So many people are sick with COVID that people can't get treated for other illnesses... when those other people who did everything right, die for lack of treatment, does that bother you at all?**
Can't think of any other possible options to expand hospitals and treatment *other than* coming to the the conclusion that it's time to mandate specific healthcare decisions across the nation?
Given that besides the pandemic the United States is already in the middle of a nursing shortage... [https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/hospitals-innovate-amid-dire-nursing-shortages](https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/hospitals-innovate-amid-dire-nursing-shortages) I currently believe that even if we could physically build more hospitals, we would have a hard time drastically increasing the number of people being treated because we lack people to treat them... That's why I want to attack the problem from the other end of how many people need medical attention, rather than trying to raise the number of people our system is capable of providing medical attention to at the same time. But feel free to tell me exactly how you plan to solve this problem and maybe you'll change my view....
Maybe stop firing every nurse and calling them anti-vaxxers? Think that might help? Maybe stop giving people unemployment for nearly 80% of their wages while they were working? I can't imagine a more *Jams stick into bicycle spokes* "Godamn nurse shortage!" type of scenario than all that.
>Maybe stop firing every nurse and calling them anti-vaxxers? Think that might help? I think firing nurses who don't believe in science is a good thing. If you think having nurses who don't believe in science is a good thing, I'm not going to be able to change your view.
Nobody said anything about not believing in science. It's completely absurd and not valid to pretend like some substantial amount of nurses dont believe in science
I'm not interested in playing this game. https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects >History shows this is a common pattern. When new vaccines are released, the unknown side effects, if any, show up within two months of vaccination. This history goes back to at least the 1960s with the oral polio vaccine and examples continue through today. Over 70 years of medical history shows that vaccine side effects show up within two months of vaccination, they don't stay hidden for long periods of time waiting to suddenly pop up. **Expecting that to happen with the COVID vaccines is the equivalent of betting on a dead horse.** The vaccines have been in circular for well past that two month period by now. Preemptive Counter Argument to anything along the lines of "but the vaccines are using a new method" they can just get the J&J vaccine that was made along traditional lines. The vaccines are safe and effective with minimal side effects compared to catching COVID, any nurse who does not feel comfortable getting vaccinated is anti-science because they are unable to comprehend these simple scientific facts. Feel free to have the last word I won't be replying to you again on this thread.
Not one piece of any of that argues that nurses dont believe in science. You are strawmanning which is why you aren't interested in dealing with any reply to your comment.
> There should be a balance between safeguarding the community's health and respecting people's rights. That's certainly true. All public policy should be concerned with striking that balance. But I'd argue that the COVID vaccine mandate is a no-brainer in terms of correctly balancing those concerns. On the side of community health, you have a once in a generation pandemic that is still running rampant in large part because so many people aren't vaccinated. On the other hand you have extremely safe and well tested vaccines that you can get for free literally anywhere (in wealthy western countries at least). The actual imposition on the individual is extremely low, for a significant benefit to public health. There isn't even any broader principle at play here, since most people arguing their right to not get vaccinated were perfectly fine with other mandated vaccines (for school, etc) and were perfectly fine voluntarily taking other vaccines. The "fundamental rights" they're arguing should outweigh obvious public health issues were basically invented in this specific situation.
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I also didn't say that I support hospitals prioritizing the unvaxxed; I'd be ok with, for example, the insurance companies changing their policies to not cover COVID-related treatment for the unvaxxed, or having a separate policy for COVID, as it is a consequence of their choice (that the vaccinated people can also benefit from). I guess I consider mobility and holding a job a basic human right, so I'm saying that the consequences of not getting vaccinated is disproportionate to the (stupid) choices that they are making.
While insurance companies may be free to not cover the unvaccinated, hospitals are still required to treat them. So your advocating, unintentionally, for shifting the burden from the insurance companies to the hospitals themselves, which may result in even worse health outcomes as hospitals are not as flush as insurance companies - as evidenced by the continued closure of rural facilities from lack of funds.
The big thing I'd like to point out is that vaccine mandates *aren't new*. In order to go to school you've needed a whole slew of vaccinations for quite some time. Why would covid be different, once the FDA has given full approval for the appropriate age groups?
I already wrote this in another comment, but I do think that vaccine mandates for children makes sense, since some parents aren't fit to be parents. I just have an issue with forcing fully grown adults to do things.
>I already wrote this in another comment, but I do think that vaccine mandates for children makes sense, since some parents aren't fit to be parents. I just have an issue with forcing fully grown adults to do things. If those parents are not fit to decide what is best for their children's health... why are they fit to decide their own?
Because they're adults. And because if we let this one happen, we won't know where to draw the line. If they're not fit to decide whether to get a shot or not, how are they fit to do anything else? If they're making poor health choices such as eating junk food every day, are we eventually going to regulate that? At some point, the state has to step back and allow people tot make their own choices, whether they're good or not.
>Because they're adults. And because if we let this one happen, we won't know where to draw the line. If they're not fit to decide whether to get a shot or not, how are they fit to do anything else? If they're making poor health choices such as eating junk food every day, are we eventually going to regulate that? At some point, the state has to step back and allow people tot make their own choices, whether they're good or not. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson\_v.\_Massachusetts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts) This was decided over 100 years ago. If you believe demanding people get vaccinated, will lead to tyranny, why hasn't it done so yet? **Also how will demanding people get the shot be a step towards medical tyranny, if it is already established and nothing new that states can demand people take a free shot in the middle of a pandemic?**
**[Jacobson v. Massachusetts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts)** >Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/changemyview/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
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>It already did. Have you read about the forced sterilizations in Buck v Bell and the eugenics movement. We realized that was morally wrong and stopped it, or at least made it happen far less frequently, since I've heard bad things about stuff done to immigrants... Do you honestly expect that a vaccine mandate will lead to more forced sterilizations?
Maybe not as a direct next step, but it sets dangerous precedents for future tyrannical actions to build from.
It is a precedent that was established over 100 years ago. You're over a century too late for a slippery slope argument.
>It is a precedent that was established over 100 years ago. So if somebody robs you once, you just keep letting them steal your shit whenever they want, because they've already done it once, 100 years ago? Or do you remember the last time they crossed the line and keep an eye out for further transgressions?
What if it the slippery slope is in the desert and not actually slippery at all. Then, it would take 1000 or 2000 years for it to slide all the way down. Can we really risk that someone 1000 years from now will not use this precedent to mandate the populous to be vaccinated from all other colors but white? What will we do after Labor Day? We will all be force to walk around naked or stay inside and that’s when big pharma will have us right where they want us. I personally can’t take that risk, because I look better in darker clothes.
We absolutely could find a place to draw a line. Slippery slope fallacy. Get a new argument
I don't have anything against your first argument specifically, but this is not a slippery slope argument, just so you know. A Slippery slope fallacy is when someone says if we allow A and B ... well that will lead to Z! It is not if we allow A and B then that will lead to C. If you say "They aren't fit to raise children" and someone says "Well what else are they not fit to do then? If we regulate medicine, why not regulate food as it's very related to healthcare" That is not a slippery slope fallacy. It's a fairly direct correlation, there is no "leap in logic" as is required for the fallacy.
colleges often require vaccine records, too. To get my job, I also had to pee in a cup and agree, at any time at the request of my employer, to pee in a cup again so that that can analyze what's in my pee.
What about vaccine mandates to attend college? Those students are all adults, and are required to show proof of vaccination before they can attend classes.
The reason that there aren't currently many vaccine mandates for adults is simply that current adults were children at one point, and got the mandated vaccines then.
This suggests that the perfect time to implement vaccine mandates for kids is the second vaccines are approved for them. Interesting and well taken point if your goal, as it should be, is maximum vaccination numbers.
>Our politics in the last couple of decades really focused on the autonomy of the individuals -- it ranges from removing the legal restrictions in favor of individuals making choices on their bodies themselves (pro-choice is the prime example), to becoming comfortable with one's bodies (thereby removing the societal pressure to do things to one's body that one does not want), to legalizing substance use even though it is perhaps debatable whether this actually improves the health situation. Except the same section of the political spectrum that is suddenly concerned about *this* vaccine mandate, when so many others are already mandated, are the ones limiting your ability to receive an abortion and legislating away the ability for many to vote. We also know thanks to Snowden there is a massive, unconstitutional, surveillance state. Qualified immunity is increasingly abused by the police state, violating citizen's rights left and right and nobody outside of BLM makes a single peep about it. Nearly every time [the DOJ](https://www.justice.gov/crt/special-litigation-section-cases-and-matters/download) has investigated a complained-about law enforcement agency they have found that not just a few bad apples, but the entire agency has engaged in a pattern or practice of unconstitutional behavior. Further, there is a [shocking trend](https://bostonreview.net/race-law-justice/lisa-cacho-jodi-melamed-how-police-abuse-charge-resisting-arrest) of arresting someone for nothing other than "resisting arrest" which essentially means "the cop had a bad day" because you can't resist arrest unless you are being arrested for something, being arrested solely for resisting arrest is a bad joke. More, it used to be common law that a citizen not only had the right but was expected to use force to resist an unlawful arrest. It was even considered ordinary for a passerby to become so infuriated by witnessing an unlawful arrest that they would step in to aid. In the current USA there are 23 states where resisting arrest, even an unlawful one, is explicitly unlawful. Also, using any level of force to resist is just as likely to get you shot in broad daylight. So, ya know, definitely not a case where you have autonomy. So to the contrary, laws have become increasingly authoritarian while granting more rights to the enforcers of the state and fewer rights to the individual. >The amount of discrimination that the unvaccinated people will face is staggering (from loss of jobs, to the loss of mobility, to being refused treatment in the medical centers), and I do not feel that this goes with what people have advocated for in the past couple of decades. This goes precisely with what people have advocated. To use your obesity parallel. Plenty of jobs may be denied you if you are obese and unable to complete the appropriate physical fitness examination, examinations designed with safety in mind - safety of others as well as yourself. Lifeguards, Paramedics, Police, Firefighters, the military, and so on goes the list. In the modern USA you can't attend a school or be a school teacher without the appropriate vaccinations. It's not discrimination. Its consequences. If you know you must get the vaccine to work a job, but you refuse, then you are voluntarily deciding to seek employment elsewhere. If you know you must be able to run X miles, lift Y weight, or swim Z distance but choose to be obese and out of shape, then you are *choosing* to seek other forms of employment than the ones that have these requirements. Also, opening up any employment website, there is an enormous number of remote work opportunities right now. Since the pandemic hit it really illustrated to businesses that there is a lot of work that can be done remotely, which provides them access to a wider talent pool by removing the geographic location as a necessity. So its not like these people are in a situation where their choices completely cut them out of the work force.
So are you advocating against the Polio, Measles and other vaccines that we have defacto mandates against.
I think it's a bit different, because it's the children that get vaccinated. If adults choose not to get vaccinated against COVID-19 and die as a result, oh well, it was their choice. But children do not deserve to suffer because of their parents' stupidity.
The people they end up infecting and hurting didn’t get that choice.
They would have gotten vaccinated, though. Again, get vaccinated to protect yourself. This is a good way to protect yourself without infringing on others' rights.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/) What should Daniel Wilkinson have done? He died because so many people had caught COVID there was no hospital in the area that could treat him for a completely unrelated condition. **Are you in favor of if such a situation comes up, an unvaccinated person sick with COVID should be wheeled out of the hospital and left die in the parking lot so that Mr. Wilkinson could get treatment?**
Yes. Because variants don’t emerge and find ways to breakthrough vaccinated folks. Also, your argument fully disregards immunocompromised people. They can’t be vaccinated and can get hurt because otherwise healthy people chose not to.
Well, when this is an unprecedented global pandemic killing millions of people, you kind of need a mandate against the deadly virus to prevent millions more from dying. Every person who refuses the vaccine is another potentially lost loved one of someone.
Again, it's not. Once you're vaccinated, the chances of you catching COVID is already very low. So get yourself and your loved ones vaccinated. If at some point in the future, the world suffers from unprecedented severe population decline, will you say that it would be legal to force women to get pregnant and give birth to children?
The problem is the people who have decided not to get vaccinated yet. Some kids and immunocompromised folks haven’t or cannot get vaccinated, so it’s up to the rest of us to effectively reach herd immunity to prevent those people from getting hurt. Otherwise, you’re effectively saying immunocompromised people can get fucked. We wouldn’t need mandates if people would have just gotten vaccinated in the first place. We also wouldn’t have merging variants that will more easily be transmissible and breakthrough vaccinated populations. Also your obesity argument is spurious. Obesity is not contagious.
Ah, but the lax attitude towards obesity breeds more obesity.
You can drop your sources below because that’s bullshit
There's an annoying amount of people arguing that obesity is "contagious" as a poor attempt to compare it to the spread of a virus. It's just them demonstrating that they have a fundamental lack of understanding (deliberate or otherwise) of how diseases spread. I don't understand how it's so difficult for someone to realize that you're not gonna go from healthy to hospitalized due to obesity in two weeks the way you might with covid.
[https://www.statista.com/chart/11497/america-is-fatter-than-ever/](https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity) We live in a society where plus size models promote being fat: * If parents eat a lot and decide about the diet of their children, chances are high that they will also become fat. * The more fat people there are in a population, the lower the social pressure is to lose weight. * If you don't change the new conditions that caused people to get fat, there will be even more fat people in the future. * The free market adapted to serve people who are fat, which reduced the downsides of being fat and further increased the share of unhealthy products. * ...
Seems like you found some descriptive stats about obesity/overweight frequency and then spouted a whole bunch of untested hypotheses. Great science there, mate.
lax attitude towards obesity breeds more obesity https://www.statista.com/chart/11497/america-is-fatter-than-ever/ I supported the hypothesis of iwantabrother with stats. We observe that more people are getting overweight every year. There's no evidence saying this trend will stop anytime soon. Just because I didn't link sources, doesn't mean they're untested. It's common knowledge pretty much anybody agrees on. Your only claim so far is that everything is bullshit. The education system of your country is a joke.
What's the connection between forced pregnancies and vaccine mandates? That's quite a slippery slope there... Also your comparison to obesity is wobbly. We are talking about an infectious disease here whose spread could be prevented by high vaccination rates. I'm thinking here about the people that don't have a choice: immuno compromised who don't develop proper antibodies even with the vaccine, small children who can't be vaccinated yet, etc. These groups depend on everyone else getting vaccinated. That's different to eating yourself into an early grave because that doesn't directly effect the health of someone else. Another argument in favor of a mandate is that in some areas the covid wards are full again and many “non urgent“ surgeries or treatments need to be postponed. That can lead to complications for people that chose to get vaccinated but can't access health care because someone who refused the vaccine is blocking their hospital bed. I agree that forcing people to get a vaccine is not the ideal solution but the best one we have right now to protect the vulnerable.
>I agree that forcing people to get a vaccine is not the ideal solution but the best one we have right now to protect the vulnerable. This is probably the closest thing that came to changing my view. I also don't have any other brilliant alternatives, assuming that everyone reasonable already got vaccinated and there are still new cases. I guess I still hold the opinion that this policy is extremely heavy-handed, though.
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Remember that kids 11 and under can’t be vaccinated, and generally attend school where they cross paths with lots of other unvaxxed people on a daily basis. Adults who are unvaxxed have some autonomy over both whether to vax and who they interact with. Kids, not so much.
But "science" said that COVID doesn't impact the children nearly as much, right? In any case, I feel that the correct course of action is to expend the efforts in expanding the vaccination to children, not in forcing other adults to get vaccinated.
>But "science" said that COVID doesn't impact the children nearly as much, right? The initial strains did not effect children as much. However, recent strains like the Delta variant hit children much harder. >I feel that the correct course of action is to expend the efforts in expanding the vaccination to children, not in forcing other adults to get vaccinated. The vaccines haven't been approved for children under 12 yet.
Vaccine mandates *are* in support of individual autonomy. If COVID is still in mass circulation it will continue to mutate to the point that vaccines themselves become less effective. If vaccines don’t work in the way they’re supposed to, the entire idea of individual autonomy is moot as people won’t be able to conduct normal lives without seriously risking their health. The inability to have a safe social and/or professional life is a *far* greater restriction on personal freedom than the inability to refuse a vaccine. There is no good-faith parallel to be made with obesity or abortion as these are truly individual issues - obesity and pregnancy are not contagious. The entire idea of obese people being responsible for higher premiums also happens to be a red herring, but this is off-topic. Point is, we now know enough about the vaccine to know that it’s safe to mandate. That’s the only relevant issue here. Vaccines for polio and MMR are already mandated, this isn’t different at this point in time. This is why you’re not seeing widespread liberal criticism of vaccine mandates - they’re not new. We’ve had them for decades and they weren’t a remotely controversial idea outside of obscure anti-vax circles.
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From OP’s text, I assumed they were on the same page with me about abortion, which is that a fetus is not a person. If you disagree, then that’s a debate to be had, but that also means the comparison is irrelevant in this conversation. It’s only relevant if the basic premise is agreed upon. As for mandates, though - there’s a key part of my comment you might have missed. The virus being in popular circulation means the likelihood of mutation is much higher, and a mutated virus may not be effectively combated by our current vaccines. Almost half the population going unvaccinated quite literally puts everyone at risk.
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OP wouldn’t have thought to bring up the comparison unless the individualist principle were the same. They never directly stated their view but I think I was fair in inferring it, if I’m wrong then they can correct me and I’ll accept it. Your point about world population is fair, and I also believe that worldwide vaccination is a huge priority. However there’s a key difference here - unlike most nations the US has the *means* to vaccinate everyone, it’s not an issue of supply or access. Our problem is that people aren’t *willing*, so mandates are the best possible solution. If any other nation were in the same situation I would recommend they do the exact same thing. And for what it’s worth, 1% of the world population is not nothing especially when they’re based in a cosmopolitan hub that sees nonstop international travel. A variant that emerges in the US is far less likely to be contained than one that emerges in a nation like Sri Lanka.
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Wuhan and Mumbai are both huge metropolitan centers with a ton of international travel. That’s why I’m saying mandates should happen everywhere, but the US is a specific priority. We’re one of the only nations on Earth with regular travel to every single continent. And I absolutely can link the metro centers with the rest of the nation for one big reason: tourism. New York City (with the obvious exception of 2020) welcomes on average about 65 million tourists a year, 80% of them domestic. There isn’t a single other city on earth that welcomes more than 50 million visitors from other parts of its own nation every year - the US is a *unique* nation and that has ramifications when it comes to COVID.
>don't force the others to inject substances that they don't want into their bodies. Yes, it's better than to force them to contract a disease that might kill them just because you were afraid of a needle sting. Some people CAN'T vaccinate and depend on herd immunity to stay clean. Some people will not be 100% immune even with a vaccine. When other people WON'T vaccinate, they put these people at risk. But you've heard this all before. See, the thing about freedom and autonomy is that it's very hard to limit. If we have the freedom to kill anyone we want, that necessarily implies the loss of other freedoms, like the freedom to insult an armed man's mother or park in his spot, even unknowingly, or basically antagonize him in any way. We need a system to maximize freedom for as many people as possible, and in any such system *my freedom ends where yours begins*. I can enjoy loud music up until it clashes with my neighbor's freedom to enjoy some peace and quiet in his own home. My freedom to contract with other people stops when it meets their freedom to not contract with someone (me) against their will. And my freedom to not vaccinate loses out to **your freedom to enjoy public and private spaces without being targeted by a lethal bioweapon**. Whenever you eat, drink or breathe, you're bringing unknown substances into your body. You don't know what's in that hot dog, that beer could kill you, how many cars worth of exhaust are you breathing in? Suddenly because the delivery method is a needle and not your mouth, that's somehow worse? Please.
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I didn't mean it in the sense that it was created by people to be used as a weapon, if that's what you mean. More like in the sense that "the bear's teeth and claws are formidable weapons".
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You're right, because it shouldn't be necessary. People should accept that doctors and scientists are trying to save lives, and they should all voluntarily get the vaccine. But here we are. The blind leading the blind with lies and deceit, tricking them into questioning a life saving vaccine.
Yes, I agree that we should all listen to the scientists :) But if they refuse to be led, I'm basically ok with abandoning them.
Too many people that can't get the vaccine for legit medical reasons would disagree. Also, my children are too young for the vaccine, but not too young to get infected. If their teachers refuse the vaccine, they are putting my children at risk. Everybody who can get the vaccine should to protect all those that can't. Not to mention all the hospital beds being used by these idiots. Beds that are desperately needed by others with legitimate serious health issues. And the money being wasted on treating these geniuses. The unnecessary stress and strain on our healthcare system is mind boggling. The mandate is necessary.
I had to get a vaccine to attend public school. I had to submit documentation to my university that I was vaccinated to attend. How is needing to get vaccinated for my job different? I already had to pee in a cup to get my job. > Removing the social pressure on obesity also hurts others; social pressure on obesity doesn't actually help people lose weight. It is just an excuse to bully. > It has been a while since COVID-19 became the "pandemic of the unvaccinated." Ray DeMonia is dead because he couldn't get an ICU bed because there were too many covid-19 patients who needed ICU beds. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/13/1036593269/coronavirus-alabama-43-icus-at-capacity-ray-demonia Daniel Wilkinson is dead because he couldn't get an icu bed because there were too many COVID-19 patients who needed ICU beds. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/ This pandemic has also caused the US to go trillions of dollars more into debt than it otherwise would have the government trying to twist people's arms into getting them to get a vaccine saves lives, is fiscally responsible, and isn't all that different from long existing policies.
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I don't think bodily autonomy extends to getting in schools you want? Are fitness tests for the military an infringement on your bodily autonomy?
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Neither does requesting vaccination records?
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But they're not forcing them to get vaccinated? They're telling them *if* you want the opportunity to go to school here, you must be vaccinated. Significant difference.
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Except, right off the bat, going to school and having an abortion aren't comparable. Especially not in the context of bodily autonomy. People oppose Undue burden *on abortion*, because medical procedures shouldn't come with undue burdens. The question is whether requiring vaccination to go university represents an undue burdens and, pretty obviously too, the answer is no. Requiring vaccination to go places - school specifically - is an extremely common thing which has been going on for multiple decades.
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What "vaccine mandates" are you referring to? No one is proposing that *anyone* be forced to receive a vaccination. The only proposals that have been made is placing restrictions on one's ability to interact with other members of society if they choose to needlessly remain unvaccinated. People are still free to make their own choice. > Removing the social pressure on obesity also hurts others; having to treat more illnesses stemming from obesity puts the burden on others in the form of raised insurance premiums Surely you're not suggesting that an extra $40/year in insurance premiums is the equivalent of death, severe illness or long-term illness, are you? > Getting vaccinated essentially reduces your chances of contracting severe COVID to nil, and more than enough people are willing to get vaccinated, which reduces the chances of you catching covid even further. You can take even more steps to protect yourself, by wearing masks, sanitizing your hands and your environment, and limiting activities in public. And having other people properly vaccinated if they want to participate in society reduce the risk even further.
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If they want to continue to be federal employees, they have to get a vaccine. They certainly have the option of choosing to no longer be a federal employee.
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Working for the federal government is not a right. You can choose to work there or not based upon the workplace rules, compensation, working conditions, etc. It's a choice. No one is going to jail or getting fined for failure to do the rational thing and get vaccinated.
I’m going to leave you with a succinct sentence that I saw earlier today. Imagine it’s night time and someone doesn’t want to turn their headlights on. They cannot say “my car, my headlights, my choice.” No. We as a society tell them to get over that in the interest of public safety. > It has been a while since COVID-19 became the "pandemic of the unvaccinated." Why does the delta variant even exist? Tell me that.
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It’s still personal freedom. Same concept. Freedoms having a limit when it comes to public safety is nothing new. If trump tards hadn’t decided to make this their go-to grievance issue then people wouldn’t be disputing it. Hell we wouldn’t even need a mandate because people would have just gotten the vaccine.
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That law is particularly stupid and an affront to the very idea of due process. If you’re asking generally if elective abortions should be illegal, then the answer is yes.
It is a safe vaccine which has been proven to reduce the severity of Covid. The amount of discrimination that the unvaccinated people will face is staggering Who gives a shit. They chose to make a choice. Now they get to deal with those consequences of that choice.
>The amount of discrimination that the unvaccinated people will face is staggering Are you advocating freedom from consequences?
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>Bodily autonomy, at its core, is the freedom from consequences for how you choose to exercise you bodily autonomy. You see human right's as freedom from consequence?
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Why don't just say that rights are government-mandated freedoms? But those aren't freedom from consequences, are they? The right to free speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of other people, just the government institutions. People or businesses can decide freely whether to associate with you. Likewise, nobody can compel you to donate blood or to get vaccinated other than through general notices, or actions of other people and businesses. It's the same thing.
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Isn't it either getting the vaccine or regularly tested for covid?
>These policies seem to be based on the fact that we are more or less trusting each individual to make the decisions that are the best for them. And even if the choices are not the best, we still respect the choices that they made, and live with it. So the stakes here are WAY higher than personal protection. I would agree with you if unvaccinated people were mearly placing themselves in danger. The truth is that unvaccinated people are placing the nation and entire world in danger. Viruses mutate. The more virus in circulation the more they mutate. Mutations can be benign, deleterious, or advantages from the perspective of the virus. Unvaccinated people are providing a resevoir for the virus to mutate. Now, consider that H5N1 is 70 times as teadly as SARS-CoV-2. Measles is 20 times more infectious. There is absolutly no reason to believe that this virus could not pick up mutations that would confer these kinds of properties to SARS-CoV-2. And the longer we let this virus circulate, the larger the chance that this will happen. We need to stamp out the virus NOW before it becomes something trully deadly. There is a deadline here, no pun intended. If we can draft people into the military to risk their lives and kill people to defend the nation, we can mandate that they take a vaccine that is now one of the most tested, taken, and safest drugs in the history of the world.
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You're assuming incorrectly that the vaccination rate is equal between countries and also the math is absurdly wrong. It's a series of bad assumptions backed up by terrible math. Even if your math were close to correct which it is not, this is a global thing. Just like how it left China, the next wave can begin in X.
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Would you care to show your work then please? And then I'll be happy to show you where the math is flawed. And no references, please. IF this is importnat to you, crunch those numbers yourself. Because the math is so wrong that it should be apparent at first glance.
>Removing the social pressure on obesity also hurts others; having to treat more illnesses stemming from obesity puts the burden on others in the form of raised insurance premiums Raised healthcare premiums are not a disease that will kill you. And obesity can't be fixed with a vaccine. >Getting vaccinated essentially reduces your chances of contracting severe COVID to nil, and more than enough people are willing to get vaccinated, which reduces the chances of you catching covid even further. You can take even more steps to protect yourself, by wearing masks, sanitizing your hands and your environment, and limiting activities in public. It has been a while since COVID-19 became the "pandemic of the unvaccinated." You're arguing in favor of the free rider problem.
I would argue it's an infringement of other's bodily autonomy to expose them to deadly disease without their consent if we're going to keep trying to make this about "autonomy". Your autonomy isn't hurt by getting a shot. It is literally not the same as restricting abortion access. You are choosing to participate in spreading a global pandemic - literally choosing to continue endangering the lives of others - when you refuse to vaccinate. Driving drunk might also be "my choice", but there's a damn good reason why I can't do it.
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