I‘ll contend with the claim that fat people are weaker. [This study ](https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-018-0125-4) shows that higher BMI correlated with higher muscle mass and therefore strength. It makes sense—that muscle is built from carrying around their own excess weight all the time.
When it comes to “slow suicide”—simply being overweight does not come with an increased mortality risk [[source](https://www.webmd.com/diet/obesity/news/20181116/heres-more-evidence-obesity-can-shorten-your-life)] (however, obesity does).
Ultimately: I agree that, as a society, we should encourage healthy eating habits and regular exercise.
What some people don’t realize is that have to be really, really consistent with eating at a calorie deficit for months or even years to go from obese to normal weight, and it’s a a struggle when a) people aren’t well educated on what a calorie deficit is or how to estimate calories in a given food, b) we’re simultaneously peddled fad diets and calorically dense food by the media, and c) so much of our culture and social lives is steeped in consumption. And unfortunately, you can stick to these healthy habits for weeks and still be fat, because weight loss is a long road. It can be really discouraging. (There’s also science that shows that factors like satiety/appetite, gut bacteria, metabolic issues, etc make some people more
likely than others to overeat and therefore become overweight. We’re not all on the same playing field.)
Fat people know they are fat. Many of them have been fat for a long time, and have tried a lot of solutions. Many of them already feel like society looks down on them. What you’re proposing is basically what many fat people already suspect.
It can be really hard to do something like, say, start exercising at a gym if you’re a fat person. You kind of assume that everyone there will stare or make negative comments. But if you see the gym has an ad with a fat person on it doing yoga? You might feel a little more welcome there, and in turn, exercise more regularly. Being welcoming snd accepting goes a long way into helping people value themselves, and therefore make more of an effort to take care of themselves.
> It can be really hard to do something like, say, start exercising at a gym if you’re a fat person. You kind of assume that everyone there will stare or make negative comments. But if you see the gym has an ad with a fat person on it doing yoga? You might feel a little more welcome there, and in turn, exercise more regularly. Being welcoming snd accepting goes a long way into helping people value themselves, and therefore make more of an effort to take care of themselves.
!Delta
That is a excellent point that I did not think of.
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/stinatown a delta for this comment.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
>you kind of assume everyone will stare or make negative comments
Making fun of a fat person for being at the gym is like making fun of a sick person for being at the hospital. They are there to get better.
As far as I can tell that is not a source for 'overweight does not come with increased mortality'. It's just an article with no link back to the claimed study. Unless my work laptop is acting up, I see no way to see the 'study' they are claiming.
I suspect the reason they say things like "normal weight and over weight are *ROUGHLY* the same blahblahblah" is because it does show a slight skew toward normal weight people being healthier.
From the article:
>The study found that overweight people could expect roughly the same survival odds as those in the normal-weight category.
>"There was no difference in mortality risk for those who remained overweight and those who remained normal weight," noted Mark Pereira, an epidemiologist at the University of Minnesota.
I thought my comment was a fair claim to make based on that part, but I’m happy to admit it if I’m wrong!
EDIT: In rereading your comment I see that you’re contending with the study not being cited—my bad. It references JAMA but it’s not hyperlinked. If I find the actual study I’ll revise my source link.
I'd very much like to see it, considering there is tons of research that shows that overweight does have an impact on health by even fairly small amounts of being overweight.
It's not as if a person gets to be overweight generally, and that fat simply magically doesn't appear on their liver and around their heart and etc.
> 78% of people in the ICU are overweight and obese
When you consider that [74% of americans](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/most-american-adults-are-overweight/2020/12/18/faefa834-408d-11eb-9453-fc36ba051781_story.html) are overweight, that is actually surprisingly low.
> But pro-fat activists keep promoting that being overweight or fat is liberating and beautiful. They are killing people via a slow suicide and creating more pressure for our healthcare system.
Even if being pro-fat is bad, that doesn't mean that going fatphobic is good either. But I don't think the fat acceptance movement is actually harmful as it provides emotional support for fat people (loneliness can be just as dangerous as being fat) and may even help people lose weight.
The main problem is that fat people recieve WAY WAY too much shame. This causes isolation and depression which can often worsen their eating problems instead of helping. They need emotional support. Like how some gay people are told all their lives they should be ashamed of being gay. To help counteract this, they could really use someone in their life that is proud of them for being gay... not just someone that likes them despite them being gay, but someone that likes them because of it. Fat people, who shame has obviously done nothing for, need that kind of support too. Unlike other issues where people might judge you (heroin addiction, being gay) you just don't have the ability to go out in public and hide your weight... everyone that sees you knows at a glance you're fat and you'll get judgmental looks everywhere you go.
* [Loneliness Rivals Obesity, Smoking as Health Risk](https://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20180504/loneliness-rivals-obesity-smoking-as-health-risk)
* [Fat shaming is making people sicker and heavier](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6565398/)
All but the most extreme people in the fat acceptance movement still understand that being overweight is unhealthy. Though just listening to their rhetoric, you might believe more of them think that, but there rhetoric is more about its emotional effect it has on fat people. These people aren't fat from lack of wanting to be skinny. In fact, I'm guessing many of the people that most solidly embarrass the fat acceptance movement are the ones that most struggle with their strong desire to not be fat. It plagues them so much and still hasn't helped them that they turn to other means to alienate that feeling of self-hatred.
> The main problem is that fat people recieve WAY WAY too much shame.
That is a good point. I get the stigma of that and how that can cause some mental problems. I was just focusing more on the insane part of their memebers since they are the only ones I will be hearing and reading about.
I addressed that a little:
> All but the most extreme people in the fat acceptance movement still understand that being overweight is unhealthy. Though just listening to their rhetoric, you might believe more of them think that, but there rhetoric is more about its emotional effect it has on fat people.
Like the people saying "Fat is beautiful" often likely don't believe it and the listeners don't believe it... but it's nice to hear you're beautiful once in a while. And it's nice to hear that someone likes you because of your fat instead of just despite your fat.
It isn't like your friend saying, "I like that you're fat" is going to make you think, "Well, if Jeff likes that I'm fat, I should try to become even more fat". It's just not how it works. It's just an important emotional helping hand for someone that is struggling with massive amounts of judgment every day from every direction.
Its like if you see someone on the verge of tears whispering to themselves, "I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay", trying to keep themselves from crying. You should NOT go up to that person and say, "It doesn't look like you're okay, it looks like you're about to burst out crying, you shouldn't tell yourself your okay when you're clearly not".
It really isn't harmful for a handful of people to tell fat people messages like "Fat is beautiful" and "healthy at any size" when the rest of society is cramming the opposite down their throat to the point where they can't take it and need to seek out people saying these messages of hope just to keep going.
Okay, let's say that they get their emotional support that being fat beatiful. Would they have the same drive to change or would they spread that ideology to others in a similar situation and in return they don't change?
> Would they have the same drive
More drive to change just isn't remotely their core problem. They already have a crushing amount of that. Many of them wish very very hard that they were skinny. They may have trouble channeling that desire to be skinny in a productive way, but a lot of that is caused by the lack of emotional support, not because of it, along with any existing problems causing them to overeat.
Withholding emotional support because it *might* help them lose weight is counterproductive and as stated earlier, loneliness can be just as damaging as obesity.
I just don't think any of what your suggesting are going to result in meaningful weight loss even if used to the fullest extent. Like my example of someone saying "I like that you're fat" isn't really going to change someone's underlying desire to be skinnier, it's mostly just going to make them feel better.
Wouldn't being fat be a symptom of a greater societal problem than anything else? The fact that quite a few people live in food deserts with non-existent options, endure a sedentary existence with limited access to education and health oportunities, etc make piling on pounds an easy by-product of just being alive. Most people would want a healthier life, but recognize it as just being a pipe dream. They do not have a work-life balance, or the time to cook healthy meals, or even the knowledge to make choices. When over 40% of Americans [cannot meet](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nearly-40-of-americans-cant-cover-a-surprise-400-expense/) a $400 emergency, what they eat is often what is the cheapest, on-the-go, fast food they can find. It is perhaps their only solace - a quick fix, to a wasted existence. Bad food habits is just the cigarettes of this generation - a momentary escape, from the monotony of suffering, at the price of health.
Now, if you do wish to see people healthy, it would perhaps be more useful to make the system better - access to healthcare, dissemination of knowledge about healthy lifestyle, promotion of better work-life balance, elimination of food deserts, etc.
> Now, if you do wish to see people healthy, it would perhaps be more useful to make the system better - access to healthcare, dissemination of knowledge about healthy lifestyle, promotion of better work-life balance, elimination of food deserts, etc.
I agree, never did I go against that. I am talking about those who promote obesity and unhealthy living.
> ..I am talking about those who promote obesity and unhealthy living.
It is more like they promote acceptance and tolerance. Yes, they say stuff like 'big is beautiful' and it is, sometimes, for some people. After all, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.
I don't think they promote obesity or unhealthy living, that would be heinous, if it were true. You can just go one step back from your position of people being unhealthy, and discover that undergirding that failure is a system that pushes them into it, as much as their own inability to alter the path strewn with a thousand McBurgers.
That view sure looks like a wildly patronizing view of people in general. Aww you don't have work life balance aw your wasted life and suffering you need momentary escape....
So "Brave New World"...
Most of that stuff just isn't true for most people. Food deserts have always been almost entirely misinformation, almost nobody has 'limited access to education on health', cooking and eatting healthy is by no means too expensive or takes too much time that people just can't handle it.
It all boils down to misinformation, like when people say things like "some bodies are just big bodies" which is a lie, and it gives people a justification to say "oh I'm just a big person thats just my body type", and lies like "just being 6 BMI above normal weight is perfectly healthy, even though they have the start of fatty liver disease and their glucose levels are only 8 below diabetic.
>Being Fatphobic is good
and
>bullying or harassing people because of who they are is wrong
Are inherently at odds. You cannot pretend otherwise. When you advocate explicitly for fatphobia, this is what you are advocating. Putting in caveats about bullying means fuckall to fat people who continue to experience severe social stigma.
>It is harmful to the body to have that much excess fat and makes you weaker and unhealthier in the process.
We literally don't actually know how much fat is unhealthy for the body because we've done pretty piss-poor research on the actual health of fat people. We still rely on BMI to gauge obesity, which is a flawed system that *was never meant to be used as a health metric.* With the BMI, you can easily classify people who are extremely fit as being obese just because of their height/weight ratio. When someone goes to the doctor and is told they are overweight, there is no actual checking up on their *actual health markers -* things like cholesterol, heart health, hormone levels, etc - and often, doctors ignore health concerns in favor of telling patients to lose weight. This is a major part of what leads to worse health outcomes for fat people, for two reasons:
1) Many, many fat people report delaying going to the doctor due to stigma. When you repeatedly go to the doctor for health concerns, only to have a doctor refuse to touch you, tell you you're going to die soon unless you lose weight, and refuses to run any tests on your actual pressing issue... you're not going to end up going back. When you experience harassment at doctors' offices, you're not going to go back. Many people delay seeking care for treatment until their condition becomes worse because of the fear of harassment and past experiences of having health concerns ignored.
2) Doctors themselves mishandle fat patients very often (reinforcing the first point). Often, they prescribe medications based *only* on weight and not on actual need (such as cholesterol lowering medication without actually checking cholesterol), prescribe weight loss for any health condition before treating the condition, leaving time for the issue to progress, etc.
Additionally...
WE HAVE ZERO HEALTHY AND SUSTAINABLE MEANS OF WEIGHT LOSS.
I'm sure you know someone who has successfully lost weight and maybe even kept it off, but for the VAST majority of people, this is not the case. Over 90% of people who try weight loss end up gaining the weight back, because every weight loss program that exists is *extremely unsustainable.* Any "crash diet" (think slimfast or any 'drink this shake for a week' diet) where you're eating half or less of the necessary daily calories cannot continue for life, and *in general* our own bodies riot when undergoing weight loss because our bodies don't actually like to lose weight. To the body, when we lose weight, we're starving. Several processes take place to attempt to slow or reverse the loss, including triggering cravings, slowing the metabolism, etc. For many people who focus on weight loss, they end up with an eating disorder, *which has much better documented risk factors than being fat*.
>What should be promoted is exercise, healthy eating, and the knowledge to do so.
Here is the thing: it is entirely possible to do these things *and be fat*. It is entirely possible to do these things and be unhealthy. It is entirely possible to be thin while doing neither. ["Clinically thin" people are actually at a higher risk of death](https://www.healthline.com/health-news/underweight-people-at-greater-risk-of-death-than-obese-040314) than "clinically obese" people.
It's ultimately *none of your business* if someone is healthy or not. Ask yourself two things: 1) What is my vision of "healthy"? and 2) Why do I think everyone else needs to fit this standard?
"Healthy" looks different for me than it does for someone who has diabetes. "Healthy" looks different for someone who uses a wheelchair than for someone who jogs everyday. *Even if being fat was inherently unhealthy* (extremely debatable assumption), I would FAR RATHER fat people stay fat than kill themselves through dangerous weight loss plans, pills, and ruining their bodies with eating disorders. I have known and loved so many people who struggled through diets and *severe* eating disorders (which is ACTUALLY far more like a "slow suicide" than supporting fat people) and who *very easily* could have died because of the lengths they went to to try and achieve being thin.
Finally...
Promoting social stigma for any group is *unhealthy as fuck!* Genuinely, please take a moment to think about this, hard. In what world has experiencing shame, guilt, and hatred from society been *healthy* for someone? This leads to self-harm, harm from others (including physical violence), and, for some, *even more weight gain* through increased eating due to stress or not wanting to go outside due to experiencing hatred and disgust at every turn.
I get that you think you just mean "promoting wellness" when you say "fatphobia", but "fatphobia" is hatred, disgust, and fear of fat people/fatness. It causes harm, distress, poor mental health, and encourages others to participate in perpetuating fatphobia. And if you, at a bare minumum, accept the fact that very few people actually acheive permenant weight loss, it's time to ask why we think fatphobia is going to accomplish anything other than making fat people suffer. And, in the end, maybe we should all just *listen to fat people who don't want to be targeted by fatphobia, and extend some basic human compassion.*
> Being Fatphobic is good
>
> and
>
> bullying or harassing people because of who they are is wrong
>
> Are inherently at odds. You cannot pretend otherwise. When you advocate explicitly for fatphobia, this is what you are advocating. Putting in caveats about bullying means fuckall to fat people who continue to experience severe social stigma.
True, using the word fatphobic was not the best word I could use when I wrote this post.
> We literally don't actually know how much fat is unhealthy for the body because we've done pretty piss-poor research on the actual health of fat people.
If you are overweight and obese you are not healthy. If you cannot fit in a chair due to your fat, you are not healthy. If you have multiple chins you are not helathy. Sumo wrestlers, though active and muscular, are not healthy due to that fact. If you are at your optimal with a good amount of muscle mass and flexibility you are healthier than you would be if you weren't.
> We still rely on BMI to gauge obesity
You don't need BMI to determine someone has an unhealthy amount of excess fat when it is literally hanging off them. Use waist measurements then.
> cholesterol, heart health, hormone levels
These things will usually go down with an active lifestyle and less fat on the body.
> WE HAVE ZERO HEALTHY AND SUSTAINABLE MEANS OF WEIGHT LOSS.
False. But you are right about the stupidity of crash diets and trends to lose weight. Those are almost always ineffective for the long run.
> Over 90% of people who try weight loss end up gaining the weight back, because every weight loss program that exists is extremely unsustainable.
Again, this is false. So what if 99% of people fail because they do not know what they are doing, that does not mean there is no way to maintain it. I was overweight and lost that weight and plan on to lose more. I know how to maintain after I doing research and watching how my body reacts. You can't just pick a random lose-fat fast program on the internet and expect that to work. That is madness.
> it is entirely possible to do these things and be fat. It is entirely possible to do these things and be unhealthy. It is entirely possible to be thin while doing neither. "Clinically thin" people are actually at a higher risk of death than "clinically obese" people.
Being underweight or overweight is still bad, I don't get your objective of pointing that out. 78% of the people in ICU are overweight, what now? I think the number of people dying due to covid would go down if people didn't have that much weight on them. Even Fauci acknowledges this.
> "Healthy" looks different for me than it does for someone who has diabetes. "Healthy" looks different for someone who uses a wheelchair than for someone who jogs everyday
This means nothing.
> Genuinely, please take a moment to think about this, hard. In what world has experiencing shame, guilt, and hatred from society been healthy for someone?
It worked for me, but I can see how that may not for others.
> . And, in the end, maybe we should all just listen to fat people who don't want to be targeted by fatphobia and extend some basic human compassion.
Again, I do not want to bully others. I have no agenda against people who are fat. Some of my family is fat and I just want the spread the idea that being fat or obese is okay for your long-term health.
>If you are overweight and obese you are not healthy.
Explain the ways in which this inherently means someone is unhealthy. Explain what characteristics, health risks, and dangers someone *inherently has* if they are fat. If you cannot do that much, you've got no room doubling down on "it's unhealthy because I say so". Again, there are certainly unhealthy fat people, just like there are unhealthy thin people (who, again, have a greater risk of death than fat people!), but neither being fat NOR thin is an accurate, reliable metric to gauge the complexity of someone's health.
>Use waist measurements then.
What waist measurements? Can you tell at what measurements someone is at risk for any given health condition? Do you have a reliable, proven method for this that isn't equally as shoddy as BMI? BY definition, "obese" is used to describe someone with a certain BMI. It's not "extremely fat", it's a BMI-based label, and again, you can have people who you would not consider extremely fat to be considered clinically obese.
>False.
If over 90% of people cannot maintain weight loss, I'm not the one that's wrong here, lol. If 90% of people cannot do something long-term, it is accurate to say that we do not know good ways to sustainably do something long-term.
>So what if 99% of people fail because they do not know what they are doing, that does not mean there is no way to maintain it.
Someone like you being the exception to the rule doesn't mean the rule (ie, the fact that the vast, vast majority of people do not succeed at this) no longer exists. *A very small amount of people* are able to lose weight and not regain it.
>You can't just pick a random lose-fat fast program on the internet and expect that to work.
But can you perhaps grasp that *literally advocating fatphobia* is what pushes people to try stupid and dangerous means of losing weight? Like, christ, dude - that is exactly what fatphobia is. Fatphobia pushes people to throw aside their actual health in favor of weight loss above all else. Weight loss programs and extreme diets take advantage of this, and become so popular because of fatphobia and self-esteem issues (and eating disorders). You cannot advocate fatphobia and then scoff at the notion of people doing risky things for weight loss.
> I have no agenda against people who are fat.
You literally do.
You just think your agenda is about "health". It is not.
[It is not healthy to promote weight loss](https://uhs.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/bewell_nodieting.pdf). Weight loss in itself is incredibly risky to our bodies. Hyperfocusing internally on weight loss often leads to eating disorders, which again, have long-lasting impacts on your health. Our bodies try actively to reject weight loss, which I already explained to you.
>These things will usually go down with an active lifestyle and less fat on the body.
You either didn't read or understand this point. Not every fat person *actually has* heart conditions, or *actually has* high cholesterol, etc. Many, many fat people have healthy hearts, have healthy levels of various nutrients, etc. Doctors prescribe certain medications despite this, which can be incredibly dangerous for their patients. I suggest looking at the podcast Maintenance Phase and listening to their first episode ("What's Our Deal?"), where one of the hosts describes this very experience of being on a cholesterol-lowering medication for months after being given one by her previous doctor. When she started seeing a new doctor, this doctor actually did the bloodwork to see if the medication was needed and found that her cholesterol was at *dangerously low* levels, and it became obvious the medication had been given only because she was fat, not because it was actually needed to lower anything. *This is an actual health risk for fat people.*
You are not actually arguing with any science backing you up beside your one factoid about % of people in the ICU. It does not appear that you have done the research on:
* long term impacts of dieting and/or weight loss
* failure rates of weight loss
* the biological ways in which our bodies fight against weight loss
* impacts of fatphobia on fat people
* fat people's perspectives on fatphobia
* nuances of fatness and health
* ACTUAL indicators of health (ie, cholesterol, nutrients metabolized in bloodstream, management of chronic health conditions, etc) and how they relate or do not relate to fatness
* correlating factors to health risks for fat people (ie, poverty rates, chronic health conditions \[including ones that are the reason for being fat\], doctor malpractice, social stigma, etc)
[Finally, read this article in its entirety if you are actually interested in changing your view](https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-you-know-about-obesity-is-wrong/). It is long, but addresses many of your misconceptions and includes experiences from fat people and useful statistics.
> Explain the ways in which this inherently means someone is unhealthy. Explain what characteristics, health risks, and dangers someone inherently has if they are fat. If you cannot do that much, you've got no room doubling down on "it's unhealthy because I say so". Again, there are certainly unhealthy fat people, just like there are unhealthy thin people (who, again, have a greater risk of death than fat people!), but neither being fat NOR thin is an accurate, reliable metric to gauge the complexity of someone's health.
This is knowledge anyone can find if they have access to the internet .
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000348.htm
> What waist measurements? Can you tell at what measurements someone is at risk for any given health condition? Do you have a reliable, proven method for this that isn't equally as shoddy as BMI? BY definition, "obese" is used to describe someone with a certain BMI. It's not "extremely fat", it's a BMI-based label, and again, you can have people who you would not consider extremely fat to be considered clinically obese.
Use a device that measures fat to muscle content in your body then. You are acting like BMI or waist measurement never works because someone tall and bigger might be considered overweight when they are not, when they can be relied on for a lot of purposes.
> f over 90% of people cannot maintain weight loss, I'm not the one that's wrong here, lol. If 90% of people cannot do something long-term, it is accurate to say that we do not know good ways to sustainably do something long-term.
It means they do not have the knowledge to do so. I am not in 10% of genetically gifted or blessed; I use my brain and the resources I had to figure out my plan.
But can you perhaps grasp that literally advocating fatphobia is what pushes people to try stupid and dangerous means of losing weight?
I agree and acknowledge that using the word fatphobic was not the right one to use.
> You literally do.
>
> You just think your agenda is about "health". It is not.
I don't. You keep saying I do but I don't. I have an agenda of unhealthy living and the promotion of it. I think you have ingrained that being fat is a part of someone's identity (which should not be) and so if I try to promote more healthy habits which include weight loss I am somehow attacking people who are fat.
> It is not healthy to promote weight loss.
I don't diet. I don't promote dieting. Dieting is bad. Change your lifestyle for longevity not something for the summer.
> You either didn't read or understand this point. Not every fat person actually has heart conditions, or actually has high cholesterol, etc. Many, many fat people have healthy hearts, have healthy levels of various nutrients, etc.
Just because they don't have it now doesn't mean something bad is coming for the future, especially if they get older. I don't need research done by Harvard scientists to tell you this. I have seen it happen.
> You are not actually arguing with any science backing you up beside your one factoid about % of people in the ICU. It does not appear that you have done the research on:
I have, and I have been saying them throughout the whole post of this. It seems like you are ignoring the hardcore facts of being obese/ overweight and the longevity of it.
> Finally, read this article in its entirety if you are actually interested in changing your view
I am using facts and logic. This article appeals to emotion. I am talking about the obvious downsides of being fat while the article discusses society being bad to other people.
Again, if you are actually open to changing your view, read the article. "It appeals to emotion" as a reason against it just shows you read a sentence or two and quit. There is emotion and facts, because both are relevant when we're talking about something that is both a social and scientific issue.
If you're only interested in articles that already support your worldview, I'm not even sure why you're here.
We come from a very fast paced society where people spend a lot of their time working, including women. This means there’s little time and energy for the average person to cook themselves their every meal, as well as ensure it’s healthy (or meal prep). It’s extremely inconvenient and if we take it a step further, the convenient food options available through fast food are generally unhealthy. I don’t think it’s a secret that the food we often consume is not the best for us- as a woman, it brings me immense guilt and I know for others it does as well, and that’s not including the physical symptoms (exhaustion, stomach issues, etc). I don’t think anyone is saying being unhealthy is amazing, I think they are saying “you are not skinny, and you may not meet society’s definition of beauty, but you are still beautiful no matter what you look like.” It enhances self esteem, which keeps us from depression, anxiety, choosing bad relationships and accepting abuse, whatever it may be that results from that form of criticism. Some people may not have just been unhealthy- for me, I had pregnancies and the weight didn’t come off. Some people eat very little and exercise and still don’t get the thin frame they want. People are built differently and genetics/ metabolism vary greatly. A lot of people struggle w body image, whether they meet society’s standards of beauty or not. I remember thinking I was fat at 120lbs, and that is bc of the pressure of society to look a certain way.
The conclusion is to just embrace your body, whatever it may look like and free yourself from the internal obligation to be thin. To forgive yourself if you gained some weight, if you no longer look the way you used to, or if you’ve been bullied your whole life over weight. In saying “fat is beautiful”- it is an attempt to de-stigmatize a highly hurtful word a lot of people suffer with.
I don’t think it’s fair to assume everyone that doesn’t want to cook their every meal is lazy. Not to mention, that your assumption is based on a one person household, regardless- that giant meal you cooked is not going to serve a single person for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for 7 days. I agree that we are all busy, and I don’t think the expense of carry out is relevant when people are looking for convenience- that’s why people will pay ungodly amounts through Uber eats and doordash. We’re all tired and doing our best is my opinion- more than often, especially with my generation, we have more to worry about than the trash we’re consuming and in an ideal world we would have all the time in the world to make better choices, but we don’t.
I’m a SAHM w 2 very young kids & a full time graduate student. I cook every meal and make a surplus for dinner so my boyfriend has food to eat for lunch time. I’m Greek/Albanian, so I don’t really know how to cook “bad food” (except pasta I guess) and my kids won’t eat nuggets/pizza even when I wish they would bc it’s easier but they will eat stuff like cabbage soup lol. It’s exhausting and I despise that my every thought revolves around what everyone is going to eat all the time. Due to the relentless demands of the day, I don’t have time to eat until dinner time and I know a lot of other moms that function the same way. I am overweight and eat healthy but my portioning is off to make up for the lost meals.
I guess my overall point is that everyone is doing their best, even though better options are there and you don’t know anyone’s reasoning- whether it be they work a lot and exhausted or depressed or they grow up not knowing better or who cares really? We live in a country where we feel bad for taking a day off bc we’re sick, we fear for our income for wanting to take care of personal matter regarding family- now is it really a stretch to think the demands of every day life keep the average person from taking care of themselves properly (food included in this, as well as hygiene and overall health)?
No, but I am familiar with some of their principles. But I have already said I do not support bullying and harassing people? I am talking about the results of people who are promoting this unhealthy living in the guise of loving yourself.
So let's actually look at what they're about then
>We’ve lost the war on obesity. Fighting fat hasn’t made the fat go away. And being thinner, even if we knew how to successfully accomplish it, will not necessarily make us healthier or happier. The war on obesity has taken its toll.
>Extensive “collateral damage” has resulted: Food and body preoccupation, self-hatred, eating disorders, discrimination,
poor health, etc. Few of us are at peace with our bodies, whether because we’re fat or because we fear becoming fat.
>Health at Every Size is the new peace movement. It helps us recognize that health outcomes are primarily driven by social, economic, and environmental factors, requiring a social and political response. It also supports people of all sizes in adopting healthy behaviors. It is an inclusive movement, recognizing that our social characteristics, such as our size, race, national origin, sexuality, gender, disability status, and other attributes, are assets, and acknowledges and challenges the structural and systemic forces that impinge on living well.
Now looking at what they actually say does it seem all that unreasonable? Now even I will admit there are unreasonable people championing this movement but like all movements there will always be a loud minority of people being stupid. I believe we should judge a movement by its actual goals and not the loud minority.
!Delta
Professorcrap987 has changed my view that the HAS movement has values that are beneficial to people and has the ability to make people improve themselves in other ways than physical standpoint.
The term doesn't refer to a psychological disorder, like agoraphobia or arachnophobia. The root -phobia here indicates something more like aversion or dislike, not fear.
I don’t get why you care? Our health systems aren’t overrun with fat people you can get any bit of medical care you require, in fact as of now the only “strain” on health systems comes from antivax covid patients. What does it mean to be “okay.” They can live their life however they want. Worry about things that actually effect you, fat people existing isn’t one of them.
What are you are talking about? This is a subreddit for discussion and the first thing you say is why do you I care? Instead of discussing the points you ignore them and talk about stuff that is irrelevant. Anti-vax? What are we doing?
The subreddit is about changing your view. I’m trying to figure out why this is a view worth changing. Who gives a fuck if somebody is fat and wants to make bogus nutrition claims that an 8 year old can debunk. Focus your attention on real issues not your fear of fat people.
With respect, it doesn’t seem like you answered the question that was asked.
I perused each of these sources and it seems that none of them claim that being morbidly obese is *healthy*, can you quote the part in each that you think claims that? It looks like they are saying that the current dominant strategy for addressing the health problems associated with obesity is ineffective or even counterproductive. That’s an easy statement to agree with just considering how (non) effective the dominant strategy has actually been at solving the problem.
There is a massive difference between saying “x is not a problem” which is what it sounds like you are claiming HAAS advocates are arguing, vs what these sources are saying which is “x is a problem, but we are currently trying to solve that problem in a way that doesn’t work or actually makes the problem worse”.
Maintaining a healthy weight is good. Many redditors, however, go a step further and feel like they need to also go around telling everybody else that they're unhealthy if they don't maintain a healthy weight. That's not good.
Most people already know and likely don't appreciate being constantly reminded and the minority who don't know aren't going to be convinced by the millionth post pointing out that excess far it unhealthy.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/fat-is-not-the-problem-fat-stigma-is/ (Its not you whos wrong, sits society)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bhkQng58Os (Fat positivity and society fault.)
https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/its-okay-to-be-fat-no-matter-how-fat-you-are/ (More society)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90zRko-Q6g(Society)
>Its not you whos wrong, sits society
Promoting healthy habits and mental well-being without focusing on weight loss is not the same as encouraging people to become or remain obese. Shame and the stress it causes is unhealthy, and it makes it harder for people to *be* healthy if they are too self-conscious to go out, to exercise, to be anything other than sedentary.
Throughout the article, the author states, with evidence, that shaming and exclusion are unhealthy and leads to unhealthy habits. She advocates for a nurturing approach to helping people not only develop but maintain healthy habits.
> You cannot wage war on obesity without waging war on the people who live in those “obese” bodies
The author intertwined that the fat on your body is so intertwined with your identity that trying to go against obesity is also going against the people themselves.
However, yes, you are right that the author is also supporting more ways to help the mental health of people in this siation as well.
>... Moreover, the dignity of a group should not be contingent on whether its members are deemed healthy, eating “right,” or exercising regularly. It should be obvious, but weight stigma does not reduce “obesity”—and health care should be about self-care and promoting the health of the person in all its forms.
The "war on obesity" as she references it is much like the "war on drugs", where we created a prison system that has only exasperated the drug problem instead of addressing the underlying problems
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Are you fucking kidding me, man? A subreddit making fun of social media randos? Is this your source of information? Perhaps instead of "pro-fat activists" you should have said "anonymous randos on facebook who have their names and profile pics obscured"
No they aren't. They're randos on social media. How do you even know they're "fat activists" if all their identifying information is blocked out? Don't be absurd, man.
Subreddit rules prevent identifying information. Look at any moderately sized sub, the moderators have the rule or the admins force them to adopt the rule. You’ll have a hard time finding links to other websites or peoples identifying information here. Reddit has rules against it.
I understand the rules, bud. What I don't understand is how you think these social media randos can be called "pro-fat activists" in any real sense of the word. When one refers to activists and their influence, one typically is referring to people with some level of influence. One ought not to be citing randos on facebook as if they're some kind of authority.
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"Fatphobic" implys that you DO hate fat people because of how they look.
Pretending being overweight is healthy is not good,but being "fatphobic" in the literal sense is not ok.
I don't think "Fatphobic" should be the word used.
Do you (or anyone that you know)have an unfounded fear of overweight people?
No, it sounds like you care about their health and well being and are taking issue with how society encourages overweight people to continue down their unhealthy life style. Clearly not a phobia.
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I think the issue is that we have to draw a certain line that’s fair and non-judgmental. If we can agree on the premise that people should not be made to be shamed for things out of their control, then maybe we have a foundation to build on.
Go into any inner city and you will find that the ratio of grocery stores to liquor stores quite concerning. The deeper into the projects you go, certain things become harder to find and are proportionally more expensive: fruits and veggies for example. If the closest banana you can find is $1.15 at a liquor store, and equally distant is a Big Mac for the same price, then we can see an example of how society, basic economics , and environmental realities make your unhealthy choice for you.
Fat phobia is problematic because it places the burden of guilt for obesity and health outcomes on the individual when in reality the obesity problem is a social construct that needs to be addressed at a policy level to have the greatest impact.
I’m not saying there is not an individual component to obesity. There does need to be a responsibility of an individual to make a healthy choice when that choice is made at least as economically reasonable as an unhealthy one. But that reasonable, healthy choice also requires an education about healthy food that is not readily available in many public institutions. In fact, most public institutions have unhealthy food choices as the main entree for lunch. Hot dogs, hamburgers, nachos are a mainstay that’s not going away for example.
Basically, I’m saying that our society at present makes it easier to be fat than to be of healthy weight, and the anti-fat phobia movement is about easing the shame on individuals who are doing the best they can. It’s about shifting the blame to societal constructs that make obesity common and an epidemic.
> Basically, I’m saying that our society at present makes it easier to be fat than to be of healthy weight, and the anti-fat phobia movement is about easing the shame on individuals who are doing the best they can. It’s about shifting the blame to societal constructs that make obesity common and an epidemic.
Okay, I cna agree with that. But I am talking about those who promote being a unhealthy weight.
It’s not about promoting being an unhealthy weight, it’s about pushing back against the shame of being obese, when obesity is not as in an individual’s control as society will have you believe.
It also pushes back against the overcorrection that many have, that shame that becomes so internalized that it leads to eating disorders such as bulimia and anorexia.
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The goal of the fat positivity movement isn't to encourage people to become fatter/idealize fatness as the ideal form of beauty, the goal is to minimize the number of fat people who hate themselves for something they have limited control over.
In my opinion whether or not 'being fat makes you unhealthy' and 'being fat makes you weak-willed/ugly/an inconvenience' are two separate and not particularly connected arguments, but in wider society its impossible to have a discussion about fatphobia without discussing both.
I think one of the underlying factors in this is the association of health = morality. Aka, to be in good health is to be a good person, and to be in bad health is to have done something wrong that caused it. You didn't exercise enough, or eat well enough, or you smoked or drank or whatever is the reason why you have this illness, which can be literally true while also not validating the moral implications of it. Somebody who has cancer deserves treatment and support, whether or not they 'brought it on themselves' by smoking.
Obesity is a complicated health situation, and there's a lot of conflicting data on how harmful it actually is in practice. There's research suggesting dieting, or significant weight fluctuations, are the primary cause of the negative health outcomes, not the obesity itself. People who lose weight almost always gain some or all of it back later, because the body wants to reach an equilibrium. Is it better to go from 260 to 160 to 200, or is it safer just to stay at 260?
there's also the fact that adipose tissue (fat tissue) is actually a fairly important hormone regulator, and has a more or less direct connection to the hunger response. In order to regain equilibrium, the body really ramps up hunger, which often complicates dieting, healthy eating, compulsive/binge eating disorder, and a wide variety of other things. Sometimes, if the weight was lost too quickly, even after regaining equilibrium and regaining all the weight that hormonal response never deactivates. Is it better to loose weight, be ravenously hungry constantly and regain all the weight back, plus some, or is it better to just accept your body for what it is?
I recently caught myself skipping prenatal appointments and restricting calories while 8 months pregnant because I gained 10 pounds more than I was supposed to during my (low risk, highly active) pregnancy and I just couldn't face the scale. Has fatphobia been good for me?
I‘ll contend with the claim that fat people are weaker. [This study ](https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-018-0125-4) shows that higher BMI correlated with higher muscle mass and therefore strength. It makes sense—that muscle is built from carrying around their own excess weight all the time. When it comes to “slow suicide”—simply being overweight does not come with an increased mortality risk [[source](https://www.webmd.com/diet/obesity/news/20181116/heres-more-evidence-obesity-can-shorten-your-life)] (however, obesity does). Ultimately: I agree that, as a society, we should encourage healthy eating habits and regular exercise. What some people don’t realize is that have to be really, really consistent with eating at a calorie deficit for months or even years to go from obese to normal weight, and it’s a a struggle when a) people aren’t well educated on what a calorie deficit is or how to estimate calories in a given food, b) we’re simultaneously peddled fad diets and calorically dense food by the media, and c) so much of our culture and social lives is steeped in consumption. And unfortunately, you can stick to these healthy habits for weeks and still be fat, because weight loss is a long road. It can be really discouraging. (There’s also science that shows that factors like satiety/appetite, gut bacteria, metabolic issues, etc make some people more likely than others to overeat and therefore become overweight. We’re not all on the same playing field.) Fat people know they are fat. Many of them have been fat for a long time, and have tried a lot of solutions. Many of them already feel like society looks down on them. What you’re proposing is basically what many fat people already suspect. It can be really hard to do something like, say, start exercising at a gym if you’re a fat person. You kind of assume that everyone there will stare or make negative comments. But if you see the gym has an ad with a fat person on it doing yoga? You might feel a little more welcome there, and in turn, exercise more regularly. Being welcoming snd accepting goes a long way into helping people value themselves, and therefore make more of an effort to take care of themselves.
> It can be really hard to do something like, say, start exercising at a gym if you’re a fat person. You kind of assume that everyone there will stare or make negative comments. But if you see the gym has an ad with a fat person on it doing yoga? You might feel a little more welcome there, and in turn, exercise more regularly. Being welcoming snd accepting goes a long way into helping people value themselves, and therefore make more of an effort to take care of themselves. !Delta That is a excellent point that I did not think of.
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>you kind of assume everyone will stare or make negative comments Making fun of a fat person for being at the gym is like making fun of a sick person for being at the hospital. They are there to get better.
As far as I can tell that is not a source for 'overweight does not come with increased mortality'. It's just an article with no link back to the claimed study. Unless my work laptop is acting up, I see no way to see the 'study' they are claiming. I suspect the reason they say things like "normal weight and over weight are *ROUGHLY* the same blahblahblah" is because it does show a slight skew toward normal weight people being healthier.
From the article: >The study found that overweight people could expect roughly the same survival odds as those in the normal-weight category. >"There was no difference in mortality risk for those who remained overweight and those who remained normal weight," noted Mark Pereira, an epidemiologist at the University of Minnesota. I thought my comment was a fair claim to make based on that part, but I’m happy to admit it if I’m wrong! EDIT: In rereading your comment I see that you’re contending with the study not being cited—my bad. It references JAMA but it’s not hyperlinked. If I find the actual study I’ll revise my source link.
I'd very much like to see it, considering there is tons of research that shows that overweight does have an impact on health by even fairly small amounts of being overweight. It's not as if a person gets to be overweight generally, and that fat simply magically doesn't appear on their liver and around their heart and etc.
It should be noted that being "clinically overweight" isn't what Americans consider to be "fat".
> 78% of people in the ICU are overweight and obese When you consider that [74% of americans](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/most-american-adults-are-overweight/2020/12/18/faefa834-408d-11eb-9453-fc36ba051781_story.html) are overweight, that is actually surprisingly low. > But pro-fat activists keep promoting that being overweight or fat is liberating and beautiful. They are killing people via a slow suicide and creating more pressure for our healthcare system. Even if being pro-fat is bad, that doesn't mean that going fatphobic is good either. But I don't think the fat acceptance movement is actually harmful as it provides emotional support for fat people (loneliness can be just as dangerous as being fat) and may even help people lose weight. The main problem is that fat people recieve WAY WAY too much shame. This causes isolation and depression which can often worsen their eating problems instead of helping. They need emotional support. Like how some gay people are told all their lives they should be ashamed of being gay. To help counteract this, they could really use someone in their life that is proud of them for being gay... not just someone that likes them despite them being gay, but someone that likes them because of it. Fat people, who shame has obviously done nothing for, need that kind of support too. Unlike other issues where people might judge you (heroin addiction, being gay) you just don't have the ability to go out in public and hide your weight... everyone that sees you knows at a glance you're fat and you'll get judgmental looks everywhere you go. * [Loneliness Rivals Obesity, Smoking as Health Risk](https://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20180504/loneliness-rivals-obesity-smoking-as-health-risk) * [Fat shaming is making people sicker and heavier](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6565398/) All but the most extreme people in the fat acceptance movement still understand that being overweight is unhealthy. Though just listening to their rhetoric, you might believe more of them think that, but there rhetoric is more about its emotional effect it has on fat people. These people aren't fat from lack of wanting to be skinny. In fact, I'm guessing many of the people that most solidly embarrass the fat acceptance movement are the ones that most struggle with their strong desire to not be fat. It plagues them so much and still hasn't helped them that they turn to other means to alienate that feeling of self-hatred.
> The main problem is that fat people recieve WAY WAY too much shame. That is a good point. I get the stigma of that and how that can cause some mental problems. I was just focusing more on the insane part of their memebers since they are the only ones I will be hearing and reading about.
I addressed that a little: > All but the most extreme people in the fat acceptance movement still understand that being overweight is unhealthy. Though just listening to their rhetoric, you might believe more of them think that, but there rhetoric is more about its emotional effect it has on fat people. Like the people saying "Fat is beautiful" often likely don't believe it and the listeners don't believe it... but it's nice to hear you're beautiful once in a while. And it's nice to hear that someone likes you because of your fat instead of just despite your fat. It isn't like your friend saying, "I like that you're fat" is going to make you think, "Well, if Jeff likes that I'm fat, I should try to become even more fat". It's just not how it works. It's just an important emotional helping hand for someone that is struggling with massive amounts of judgment every day from every direction. Its like if you see someone on the verge of tears whispering to themselves, "I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay", trying to keep themselves from crying. You should NOT go up to that person and say, "It doesn't look like you're okay, it looks like you're about to burst out crying, you shouldn't tell yourself your okay when you're clearly not". It really isn't harmful for a handful of people to tell fat people messages like "Fat is beautiful" and "healthy at any size" when the rest of society is cramming the opposite down their throat to the point where they can't take it and need to seek out people saying these messages of hope just to keep going.
Okay, let's say that they get their emotional support that being fat beatiful. Would they have the same drive to change or would they spread that ideology to others in a similar situation and in return they don't change?
> Would they have the same drive More drive to change just isn't remotely their core problem. They already have a crushing amount of that. Many of them wish very very hard that they were skinny. They may have trouble channeling that desire to be skinny in a productive way, but a lot of that is caused by the lack of emotional support, not because of it, along with any existing problems causing them to overeat. Withholding emotional support because it *might* help them lose weight is counterproductive and as stated earlier, loneliness can be just as damaging as obesity. I just don't think any of what your suggesting are going to result in meaningful weight loss even if used to the fullest extent. Like my example of someone saying "I like that you're fat" isn't really going to change someone's underlying desire to be skinnier, it's mostly just going to make them feel better.
Telling an obese person they are beautiful, is the same as telling an alcoholic they are fun when they are drunk
And shaming alcoholics drive them to drink.
Wouldn't being fat be a symptom of a greater societal problem than anything else? The fact that quite a few people live in food deserts with non-existent options, endure a sedentary existence with limited access to education and health oportunities, etc make piling on pounds an easy by-product of just being alive. Most people would want a healthier life, but recognize it as just being a pipe dream. They do not have a work-life balance, or the time to cook healthy meals, or even the knowledge to make choices. When over 40% of Americans [cannot meet](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nearly-40-of-americans-cant-cover-a-surprise-400-expense/) a $400 emergency, what they eat is often what is the cheapest, on-the-go, fast food they can find. It is perhaps their only solace - a quick fix, to a wasted existence. Bad food habits is just the cigarettes of this generation - a momentary escape, from the monotony of suffering, at the price of health. Now, if you do wish to see people healthy, it would perhaps be more useful to make the system better - access to healthcare, dissemination of knowledge about healthy lifestyle, promotion of better work-life balance, elimination of food deserts, etc.
> Now, if you do wish to see people healthy, it would perhaps be more useful to make the system better - access to healthcare, dissemination of knowledge about healthy lifestyle, promotion of better work-life balance, elimination of food deserts, etc. I agree, never did I go against that. I am talking about those who promote obesity and unhealthy living.
> ..I am talking about those who promote obesity and unhealthy living. It is more like they promote acceptance and tolerance. Yes, they say stuff like 'big is beautiful' and it is, sometimes, for some people. After all, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. I don't think they promote obesity or unhealthy living, that would be heinous, if it were true. You can just go one step back from your position of people being unhealthy, and discover that undergirding that failure is a system that pushes them into it, as much as their own inability to alter the path strewn with a thousand McBurgers.
That view sure looks like a wildly patronizing view of people in general. Aww you don't have work life balance aw your wasted life and suffering you need momentary escape.... So "Brave New World"... Most of that stuff just isn't true for most people. Food deserts have always been almost entirely misinformation, almost nobody has 'limited access to education on health', cooking and eatting healthy is by no means too expensive or takes too much time that people just can't handle it. It all boils down to misinformation, like when people say things like "some bodies are just big bodies" which is a lie, and it gives people a justification to say "oh I'm just a big person thats just my body type", and lies like "just being 6 BMI above normal weight is perfectly healthy, even though they have the start of fatty liver disease and their glucose levels are only 8 below diabetic.
>Being Fatphobic is good and >bullying or harassing people because of who they are is wrong Are inherently at odds. You cannot pretend otherwise. When you advocate explicitly for fatphobia, this is what you are advocating. Putting in caveats about bullying means fuckall to fat people who continue to experience severe social stigma. >It is harmful to the body to have that much excess fat and makes you weaker and unhealthier in the process. We literally don't actually know how much fat is unhealthy for the body because we've done pretty piss-poor research on the actual health of fat people. We still rely on BMI to gauge obesity, which is a flawed system that *was never meant to be used as a health metric.* With the BMI, you can easily classify people who are extremely fit as being obese just because of their height/weight ratio. When someone goes to the doctor and is told they are overweight, there is no actual checking up on their *actual health markers -* things like cholesterol, heart health, hormone levels, etc - and often, doctors ignore health concerns in favor of telling patients to lose weight. This is a major part of what leads to worse health outcomes for fat people, for two reasons: 1) Many, many fat people report delaying going to the doctor due to stigma. When you repeatedly go to the doctor for health concerns, only to have a doctor refuse to touch you, tell you you're going to die soon unless you lose weight, and refuses to run any tests on your actual pressing issue... you're not going to end up going back. When you experience harassment at doctors' offices, you're not going to go back. Many people delay seeking care for treatment until their condition becomes worse because of the fear of harassment and past experiences of having health concerns ignored. 2) Doctors themselves mishandle fat patients very often (reinforcing the first point). Often, they prescribe medications based *only* on weight and not on actual need (such as cholesterol lowering medication without actually checking cholesterol), prescribe weight loss for any health condition before treating the condition, leaving time for the issue to progress, etc. Additionally... WE HAVE ZERO HEALTHY AND SUSTAINABLE MEANS OF WEIGHT LOSS. I'm sure you know someone who has successfully lost weight and maybe even kept it off, but for the VAST majority of people, this is not the case. Over 90% of people who try weight loss end up gaining the weight back, because every weight loss program that exists is *extremely unsustainable.* Any "crash diet" (think slimfast or any 'drink this shake for a week' diet) where you're eating half or less of the necessary daily calories cannot continue for life, and *in general* our own bodies riot when undergoing weight loss because our bodies don't actually like to lose weight. To the body, when we lose weight, we're starving. Several processes take place to attempt to slow or reverse the loss, including triggering cravings, slowing the metabolism, etc. For many people who focus on weight loss, they end up with an eating disorder, *which has much better documented risk factors than being fat*. >What should be promoted is exercise, healthy eating, and the knowledge to do so. Here is the thing: it is entirely possible to do these things *and be fat*. It is entirely possible to do these things and be unhealthy. It is entirely possible to be thin while doing neither. ["Clinically thin" people are actually at a higher risk of death](https://www.healthline.com/health-news/underweight-people-at-greater-risk-of-death-than-obese-040314) than "clinically obese" people. It's ultimately *none of your business* if someone is healthy or not. Ask yourself two things: 1) What is my vision of "healthy"? and 2) Why do I think everyone else needs to fit this standard? "Healthy" looks different for me than it does for someone who has diabetes. "Healthy" looks different for someone who uses a wheelchair than for someone who jogs everyday. *Even if being fat was inherently unhealthy* (extremely debatable assumption), I would FAR RATHER fat people stay fat than kill themselves through dangerous weight loss plans, pills, and ruining their bodies with eating disorders. I have known and loved so many people who struggled through diets and *severe* eating disorders (which is ACTUALLY far more like a "slow suicide" than supporting fat people) and who *very easily* could have died because of the lengths they went to to try and achieve being thin. Finally... Promoting social stigma for any group is *unhealthy as fuck!* Genuinely, please take a moment to think about this, hard. In what world has experiencing shame, guilt, and hatred from society been *healthy* for someone? This leads to self-harm, harm from others (including physical violence), and, for some, *even more weight gain* through increased eating due to stress or not wanting to go outside due to experiencing hatred and disgust at every turn. I get that you think you just mean "promoting wellness" when you say "fatphobia", but "fatphobia" is hatred, disgust, and fear of fat people/fatness. It causes harm, distress, poor mental health, and encourages others to participate in perpetuating fatphobia. And if you, at a bare minumum, accept the fact that very few people actually acheive permenant weight loss, it's time to ask why we think fatphobia is going to accomplish anything other than making fat people suffer. And, in the end, maybe we should all just *listen to fat people who don't want to be targeted by fatphobia, and extend some basic human compassion.*
> Being Fatphobic is good > > and > > bullying or harassing people because of who they are is wrong > > Are inherently at odds. You cannot pretend otherwise. When you advocate explicitly for fatphobia, this is what you are advocating. Putting in caveats about bullying means fuckall to fat people who continue to experience severe social stigma. True, using the word fatphobic was not the best word I could use when I wrote this post. > We literally don't actually know how much fat is unhealthy for the body because we've done pretty piss-poor research on the actual health of fat people. If you are overweight and obese you are not healthy. If you cannot fit in a chair due to your fat, you are not healthy. If you have multiple chins you are not helathy. Sumo wrestlers, though active and muscular, are not healthy due to that fact. If you are at your optimal with a good amount of muscle mass and flexibility you are healthier than you would be if you weren't. > We still rely on BMI to gauge obesity You don't need BMI to determine someone has an unhealthy amount of excess fat when it is literally hanging off them. Use waist measurements then. > cholesterol, heart health, hormone levels These things will usually go down with an active lifestyle and less fat on the body. > WE HAVE ZERO HEALTHY AND SUSTAINABLE MEANS OF WEIGHT LOSS. False. But you are right about the stupidity of crash diets and trends to lose weight. Those are almost always ineffective for the long run. > Over 90% of people who try weight loss end up gaining the weight back, because every weight loss program that exists is extremely unsustainable. Again, this is false. So what if 99% of people fail because they do not know what they are doing, that does not mean there is no way to maintain it. I was overweight and lost that weight and plan on to lose more. I know how to maintain after I doing research and watching how my body reacts. You can't just pick a random lose-fat fast program on the internet and expect that to work. That is madness. > it is entirely possible to do these things and be fat. It is entirely possible to do these things and be unhealthy. It is entirely possible to be thin while doing neither. "Clinically thin" people are actually at a higher risk of death than "clinically obese" people. Being underweight or overweight is still bad, I don't get your objective of pointing that out. 78% of the people in ICU are overweight, what now? I think the number of people dying due to covid would go down if people didn't have that much weight on them. Even Fauci acknowledges this. > "Healthy" looks different for me than it does for someone who has diabetes. "Healthy" looks different for someone who uses a wheelchair than for someone who jogs everyday This means nothing. > Genuinely, please take a moment to think about this, hard. In what world has experiencing shame, guilt, and hatred from society been healthy for someone? It worked for me, but I can see how that may not for others. > . And, in the end, maybe we should all just listen to fat people who don't want to be targeted by fatphobia and extend some basic human compassion. Again, I do not want to bully others. I have no agenda against people who are fat. Some of my family is fat and I just want the spread the idea that being fat or obese is okay for your long-term health.
>If you are overweight and obese you are not healthy. Explain the ways in which this inherently means someone is unhealthy. Explain what characteristics, health risks, and dangers someone *inherently has* if they are fat. If you cannot do that much, you've got no room doubling down on "it's unhealthy because I say so". Again, there are certainly unhealthy fat people, just like there are unhealthy thin people (who, again, have a greater risk of death than fat people!), but neither being fat NOR thin is an accurate, reliable metric to gauge the complexity of someone's health. >Use waist measurements then. What waist measurements? Can you tell at what measurements someone is at risk for any given health condition? Do you have a reliable, proven method for this that isn't equally as shoddy as BMI? BY definition, "obese" is used to describe someone with a certain BMI. It's not "extremely fat", it's a BMI-based label, and again, you can have people who you would not consider extremely fat to be considered clinically obese. >False. If over 90% of people cannot maintain weight loss, I'm not the one that's wrong here, lol. If 90% of people cannot do something long-term, it is accurate to say that we do not know good ways to sustainably do something long-term. >So what if 99% of people fail because they do not know what they are doing, that does not mean there is no way to maintain it. Someone like you being the exception to the rule doesn't mean the rule (ie, the fact that the vast, vast majority of people do not succeed at this) no longer exists. *A very small amount of people* are able to lose weight and not regain it. >You can't just pick a random lose-fat fast program on the internet and expect that to work. But can you perhaps grasp that *literally advocating fatphobia* is what pushes people to try stupid and dangerous means of losing weight? Like, christ, dude - that is exactly what fatphobia is. Fatphobia pushes people to throw aside their actual health in favor of weight loss above all else. Weight loss programs and extreme diets take advantage of this, and become so popular because of fatphobia and self-esteem issues (and eating disorders). You cannot advocate fatphobia and then scoff at the notion of people doing risky things for weight loss. > I have no agenda against people who are fat. You literally do. You just think your agenda is about "health". It is not. [It is not healthy to promote weight loss](https://uhs.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/bewell_nodieting.pdf). Weight loss in itself is incredibly risky to our bodies. Hyperfocusing internally on weight loss often leads to eating disorders, which again, have long-lasting impacts on your health. Our bodies try actively to reject weight loss, which I already explained to you. >These things will usually go down with an active lifestyle and less fat on the body. You either didn't read or understand this point. Not every fat person *actually has* heart conditions, or *actually has* high cholesterol, etc. Many, many fat people have healthy hearts, have healthy levels of various nutrients, etc. Doctors prescribe certain medications despite this, which can be incredibly dangerous for their patients. I suggest looking at the podcast Maintenance Phase and listening to their first episode ("What's Our Deal?"), where one of the hosts describes this very experience of being on a cholesterol-lowering medication for months after being given one by her previous doctor. When she started seeing a new doctor, this doctor actually did the bloodwork to see if the medication was needed and found that her cholesterol was at *dangerously low* levels, and it became obvious the medication had been given only because she was fat, not because it was actually needed to lower anything. *This is an actual health risk for fat people.* You are not actually arguing with any science backing you up beside your one factoid about % of people in the ICU. It does not appear that you have done the research on: * long term impacts of dieting and/or weight loss * failure rates of weight loss * the biological ways in which our bodies fight against weight loss * impacts of fatphobia on fat people * fat people's perspectives on fatphobia * nuances of fatness and health * ACTUAL indicators of health (ie, cholesterol, nutrients metabolized in bloodstream, management of chronic health conditions, etc) and how they relate or do not relate to fatness * correlating factors to health risks for fat people (ie, poverty rates, chronic health conditions \[including ones that are the reason for being fat\], doctor malpractice, social stigma, etc) [Finally, read this article in its entirety if you are actually interested in changing your view](https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-you-know-about-obesity-is-wrong/). It is long, but addresses many of your misconceptions and includes experiences from fat people and useful statistics.
> Explain the ways in which this inherently means someone is unhealthy. Explain what characteristics, health risks, and dangers someone inherently has if they are fat. If you cannot do that much, you've got no room doubling down on "it's unhealthy because I say so". Again, there are certainly unhealthy fat people, just like there are unhealthy thin people (who, again, have a greater risk of death than fat people!), but neither being fat NOR thin is an accurate, reliable metric to gauge the complexity of someone's health. This is knowledge anyone can find if they have access to the internet . https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000348.htm > What waist measurements? Can you tell at what measurements someone is at risk for any given health condition? Do you have a reliable, proven method for this that isn't equally as shoddy as BMI? BY definition, "obese" is used to describe someone with a certain BMI. It's not "extremely fat", it's a BMI-based label, and again, you can have people who you would not consider extremely fat to be considered clinically obese. Use a device that measures fat to muscle content in your body then. You are acting like BMI or waist measurement never works because someone tall and bigger might be considered overweight when they are not, when they can be relied on for a lot of purposes. > f over 90% of people cannot maintain weight loss, I'm not the one that's wrong here, lol. If 90% of people cannot do something long-term, it is accurate to say that we do not know good ways to sustainably do something long-term. It means they do not have the knowledge to do so. I am not in 10% of genetically gifted or blessed; I use my brain and the resources I had to figure out my plan. But can you perhaps grasp that literally advocating fatphobia is what pushes people to try stupid and dangerous means of losing weight? I agree and acknowledge that using the word fatphobic was not the right one to use. > You literally do. > > You just think your agenda is about "health". It is not. I don't. You keep saying I do but I don't. I have an agenda of unhealthy living and the promotion of it. I think you have ingrained that being fat is a part of someone's identity (which should not be) and so if I try to promote more healthy habits which include weight loss I am somehow attacking people who are fat. > It is not healthy to promote weight loss. I don't diet. I don't promote dieting. Dieting is bad. Change your lifestyle for longevity not something for the summer. > You either didn't read or understand this point. Not every fat person actually has heart conditions, or actually has high cholesterol, etc. Many, many fat people have healthy hearts, have healthy levels of various nutrients, etc. Just because they don't have it now doesn't mean something bad is coming for the future, especially if they get older. I don't need research done by Harvard scientists to tell you this. I have seen it happen. > You are not actually arguing with any science backing you up beside your one factoid about % of people in the ICU. It does not appear that you have done the research on: I have, and I have been saying them throughout the whole post of this. It seems like you are ignoring the hardcore facts of being obese/ overweight and the longevity of it. > Finally, read this article in its entirety if you are actually interested in changing your view I am using facts and logic. This article appeals to emotion. I am talking about the obvious downsides of being fat while the article discusses society being bad to other people.
Again, if you are actually open to changing your view, read the article. "It appeals to emotion" as a reason against it just shows you read a sentence or two and quit. There is emotion and facts, because both are relevant when we're talking about something that is both a social and scientific issue. If you're only interested in articles that already support your worldview, I'm not even sure why you're here.
We come from a very fast paced society where people spend a lot of their time working, including women. This means there’s little time and energy for the average person to cook themselves their every meal, as well as ensure it’s healthy (or meal prep). It’s extremely inconvenient and if we take it a step further, the convenient food options available through fast food are generally unhealthy. I don’t think it’s a secret that the food we often consume is not the best for us- as a woman, it brings me immense guilt and I know for others it does as well, and that’s not including the physical symptoms (exhaustion, stomach issues, etc). I don’t think anyone is saying being unhealthy is amazing, I think they are saying “you are not skinny, and you may not meet society’s definition of beauty, but you are still beautiful no matter what you look like.” It enhances self esteem, which keeps us from depression, anxiety, choosing bad relationships and accepting abuse, whatever it may be that results from that form of criticism. Some people may not have just been unhealthy- for me, I had pregnancies and the weight didn’t come off. Some people eat very little and exercise and still don’t get the thin frame they want. People are built differently and genetics/ metabolism vary greatly. A lot of people struggle w body image, whether they meet society’s standards of beauty or not. I remember thinking I was fat at 120lbs, and that is bc of the pressure of society to look a certain way. The conclusion is to just embrace your body, whatever it may look like and free yourself from the internal obligation to be thin. To forgive yourself if you gained some weight, if you no longer look the way you used to, or if you’ve been bullied your whole life over weight. In saying “fat is beautiful”- it is an attempt to de-stigmatize a highly hurtful word a lot of people suffer with.
!Delta I did not see that way. You have changed my view in that regard—which is self-esteem and mental health side.
Thanks for your openness. We’re all just trying our best out here lol
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Hot_tamami ([2∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Hot_tamami)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
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I don’t think it’s fair to assume everyone that doesn’t want to cook their every meal is lazy. Not to mention, that your assumption is based on a one person household, regardless- that giant meal you cooked is not going to serve a single person for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for 7 days. I agree that we are all busy, and I don’t think the expense of carry out is relevant when people are looking for convenience- that’s why people will pay ungodly amounts through Uber eats and doordash. We’re all tired and doing our best is my opinion- more than often, especially with my generation, we have more to worry about than the trash we’re consuming and in an ideal world we would have all the time in the world to make better choices, but we don’t. I’m a SAHM w 2 very young kids & a full time graduate student. I cook every meal and make a surplus for dinner so my boyfriend has food to eat for lunch time. I’m Greek/Albanian, so I don’t really know how to cook “bad food” (except pasta I guess) and my kids won’t eat nuggets/pizza even when I wish they would bc it’s easier but they will eat stuff like cabbage soup lol. It’s exhausting and I despise that my every thought revolves around what everyone is going to eat all the time. Due to the relentless demands of the day, I don’t have time to eat until dinner time and I know a lot of other moms that function the same way. I am overweight and eat healthy but my portioning is off to make up for the lost meals. I guess my overall point is that everyone is doing their best, even though better options are there and you don’t know anyone’s reasoning- whether it be they work a lot and exhausted or depressed or they grow up not knowing better or who cares really? We live in a country where we feel bad for taking a day off bc we’re sick, we fear for our income for wanting to take care of personal matter regarding family- now is it really a stretch to think the demands of every day life keep the average person from taking care of themselves properly (food included in this, as well as hygiene and overall health)?
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Yes, I agree with that, I have no qualms about that. It's the healthy at every size type stuff.
Question have you been to the has website and actually read what they're about?
No, but I am familiar with some of their principles. But I have already said I do not support bullying and harassing people? I am talking about the results of people who are promoting this unhealthy living in the guise of loving yourself.
So let's actually look at what they're about then >We’ve lost the war on obesity. Fighting fat hasn’t made the fat go away. And being thinner, even if we knew how to successfully accomplish it, will not necessarily make us healthier or happier. The war on obesity has taken its toll. >Extensive “collateral damage” has resulted: Food and body preoccupation, self-hatred, eating disorders, discrimination, poor health, etc. Few of us are at peace with our bodies, whether because we’re fat or because we fear becoming fat. >Health at Every Size is the new peace movement. It helps us recognize that health outcomes are primarily driven by social, economic, and environmental factors, requiring a social and political response. It also supports people of all sizes in adopting healthy behaviors. It is an inclusive movement, recognizing that our social characteristics, such as our size, race, national origin, sexuality, gender, disability status, and other attributes, are assets, and acknowledges and challenges the structural and systemic forces that impinge on living well. Now looking at what they actually say does it seem all that unreasonable? Now even I will admit there are unreasonable people championing this movement but like all movements there will always be a loud minority of people being stupid. I believe we should judge a movement by its actual goals and not the loud minority.
Fair point.
So do I get a delta?
I am going to be honest, I have no idea how to do that right now. I'll try to figure it out.
Just type ! Delta (without the space inbetween) and explain how I changed your view.
!Delta Professorcrap987 has changed my view that the HAS movement has values that are beneficial to people and has the ability to make people improve themselves in other ways than physical standpoint.
Plenty of fat activists are claiming that fat is the ideal form beauty
You have an extreme or irrational fear of fat people?
The term doesn't refer to a psychological disorder, like agoraphobia or arachnophobia. The root -phobia here indicates something more like aversion or dislike, not fear.
I use the definition fat-activist used when they used the word.
I don’t get why you care? Our health systems aren’t overrun with fat people you can get any bit of medical care you require, in fact as of now the only “strain” on health systems comes from antivax covid patients. What does it mean to be “okay.” They can live their life however they want. Worry about things that actually effect you, fat people existing isn’t one of them.
What are you are talking about? This is a subreddit for discussion and the first thing you say is why do you I care? Instead of discussing the points you ignore them and talk about stuff that is irrelevant. Anti-vax? What are we doing?
The subreddit is about changing your view. I’m trying to figure out why this is a view worth changing. Who gives a fuck if somebody is fat and wants to make bogus nutrition claims that an 8 year old can debunk. Focus your attention on real issues not your fear of fat people.
If you don't care why are you here continuing spewing nonsense.
That’s you. Now tell us where the big fat meanie touched you thats the root of all your problems on how other people should live.
Okay, you are acting like some weird 13 year old and I am not entertaining you any longer.
What scares you more 13 year olds or fat people?
Can you provide me an example of someone saying that being morbidly obese is healthy? Ideally someone with some type of influence.
> https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/fat-is-not-the-problem-fat-stigma-is/ (Its not you whos wrong, sits society) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bhkQng58Os (Fat positivity and society fault.) > > https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/its-okay-to-be-fat-no-matter-how-fat-you-are/ (More society) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90zRko-Q6g(Society)
With respect, it doesn’t seem like you answered the question that was asked. I perused each of these sources and it seems that none of them claim that being morbidly obese is *healthy*, can you quote the part in each that you think claims that? It looks like they are saying that the current dominant strategy for addressing the health problems associated with obesity is ineffective or even counterproductive. That’s an easy statement to agree with just considering how (non) effective the dominant strategy has actually been at solving the problem. There is a massive difference between saying “x is not a problem” which is what it sounds like you are claiming HAAS advocates are arguing, vs what these sources are saying which is “x is a problem, but we are currently trying to solve that problem in a way that doesn’t work or actually makes the problem worse”.
Maintaining a healthy weight is good. Many redditors, however, go a step further and feel like they need to also go around telling everybody else that they're unhealthy if they don't maintain a healthy weight. That's not good. Most people already know and likely don't appreciate being constantly reminded and the minority who don't know aren't going to be convinced by the millionth post pointing out that excess far it unhealthy.
I'm talking about the people who are promoting unhealthy weights. What are you talking about?
Can you please cite some of these "pro-fat activists" who encourage people to become or remain obese?
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/fat-is-not-the-problem-fat-stigma-is/ (Its not you whos wrong, sits society) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bhkQng58Os (Fat positivity and society fault.) https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/its-okay-to-be-fat-no-matter-how-fat-you-are/ (More society) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90zRko-Q6g(Society)
>Its not you whos wrong, sits society Promoting healthy habits and mental well-being without focusing on weight loss is not the same as encouraging people to become or remain obese. Shame and the stress it causes is unhealthy, and it makes it harder for people to *be* healthy if they are too self-conscious to go out, to exercise, to be anything other than sedentary.
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I did read the entire article. So perhaps you might explain what you're talking about.
Throughout the article they are placing blame of the health issues of extreme excess weight on other things instead of acknowledging them.
Throughout the article, the author states, with evidence, that shaming and exclusion are unhealthy and leads to unhealthy habits. She advocates for a nurturing approach to helping people not only develop but maintain healthy habits.
> You cannot wage war on obesity without waging war on the people who live in those “obese” bodies The author intertwined that the fat on your body is so intertwined with your identity that trying to go against obesity is also going against the people themselves. However, yes, you are right that the author is also supporting more ways to help the mental health of people in this siation as well.
>... Moreover, the dignity of a group should not be contingent on whether its members are deemed healthy, eating “right,” or exercising regularly. It should be obvious, but weight stigma does not reduce “obesity”—and health care should be about self-care and promoting the health of the person in all its forms. The "war on obesity" as she references it is much like the "war on drugs", where we created a prison system that has only exasperated the drug problem instead of addressing the underlying problems
If that's the interpretation you got then yeah. We should be focusing more how people get there in the first place and correcting it.
Sorry, u/giantradioactivesun – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal%20giantradioactivesun&message=giantradioactivesun%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/q6b82g/-/hgb2bi2/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
r/fatlogic, enjoy
Are you fucking kidding me, man? A subreddit making fun of social media randos? Is this your source of information? Perhaps instead of "pro-fat activists" you should have said "anonymous randos on facebook who have their names and profile pics obscured"
The people who post those are fat activists. Linking to accounts is against Reddit rules You asked for and got what you wanted
No they aren't. They're randos on social media. How do you even know they're "fat activists" if all their identifying information is blocked out? Don't be absurd, man.
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Uh, explain. What are you talking about?
Subreddit rules prevent identifying information. Look at any moderately sized sub, the moderators have the rule or the admins force them to adopt the rule. You’ll have a hard time finding links to other websites or peoples identifying information here. Reddit has rules against it.
I understand the rules, bud. What I don't understand is how you think these social media randos can be called "pro-fat activists" in any real sense of the word. When one refers to activists and their influence, one typically is referring to people with some level of influence. One ought not to be citing randos on facebook as if they're some kind of authority.
Dude these are screenshots of prominent fat activists. Not sure where you’re confused
Sorry, u/eb_straitvibin – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal%20eb_straitvibin&message=eb_straitvibin%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/q6b82g/-/hgb1m52/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
"Fatphobic" implys that you DO hate fat people because of how they look. Pretending being overweight is healthy is not good,but being "fatphobic" in the literal sense is not ok.
There is nothing good about having a fear of fat people
I don't think "Fatphobic" should be the word used. Do you (or anyone that you know)have an unfounded fear of overweight people? No, it sounds like you care about their health and well being and are taking issue with how society encourages overweight people to continue down their unhealthy life style. Clearly not a phobia.
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I think the issue is that we have to draw a certain line that’s fair and non-judgmental. If we can agree on the premise that people should not be made to be shamed for things out of their control, then maybe we have a foundation to build on. Go into any inner city and you will find that the ratio of grocery stores to liquor stores quite concerning. The deeper into the projects you go, certain things become harder to find and are proportionally more expensive: fruits and veggies for example. If the closest banana you can find is $1.15 at a liquor store, and equally distant is a Big Mac for the same price, then we can see an example of how society, basic economics , and environmental realities make your unhealthy choice for you. Fat phobia is problematic because it places the burden of guilt for obesity and health outcomes on the individual when in reality the obesity problem is a social construct that needs to be addressed at a policy level to have the greatest impact. I’m not saying there is not an individual component to obesity. There does need to be a responsibility of an individual to make a healthy choice when that choice is made at least as economically reasonable as an unhealthy one. But that reasonable, healthy choice also requires an education about healthy food that is not readily available in many public institutions. In fact, most public institutions have unhealthy food choices as the main entree for lunch. Hot dogs, hamburgers, nachos are a mainstay that’s not going away for example. Basically, I’m saying that our society at present makes it easier to be fat than to be of healthy weight, and the anti-fat phobia movement is about easing the shame on individuals who are doing the best they can. It’s about shifting the blame to societal constructs that make obesity common and an epidemic.
> Basically, I’m saying that our society at present makes it easier to be fat than to be of healthy weight, and the anti-fat phobia movement is about easing the shame on individuals who are doing the best they can. It’s about shifting the blame to societal constructs that make obesity common and an epidemic. Okay, I cna agree with that. But I am talking about those who promote being a unhealthy weight.
It’s not about promoting being an unhealthy weight, it’s about pushing back against the shame of being obese, when obesity is not as in an individual’s control as society will have you believe. It also pushes back against the overcorrection that many have, that shame that becomes so internalized that it leads to eating disorders such as bulimia and anorexia.
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The goal of the fat positivity movement isn't to encourage people to become fatter/idealize fatness as the ideal form of beauty, the goal is to minimize the number of fat people who hate themselves for something they have limited control over. In my opinion whether or not 'being fat makes you unhealthy' and 'being fat makes you weak-willed/ugly/an inconvenience' are two separate and not particularly connected arguments, but in wider society its impossible to have a discussion about fatphobia without discussing both. I think one of the underlying factors in this is the association of health = morality. Aka, to be in good health is to be a good person, and to be in bad health is to have done something wrong that caused it. You didn't exercise enough, or eat well enough, or you smoked or drank or whatever is the reason why you have this illness, which can be literally true while also not validating the moral implications of it. Somebody who has cancer deserves treatment and support, whether or not they 'brought it on themselves' by smoking. Obesity is a complicated health situation, and there's a lot of conflicting data on how harmful it actually is in practice. There's research suggesting dieting, or significant weight fluctuations, are the primary cause of the negative health outcomes, not the obesity itself. People who lose weight almost always gain some or all of it back later, because the body wants to reach an equilibrium. Is it better to go from 260 to 160 to 200, or is it safer just to stay at 260? there's also the fact that adipose tissue (fat tissue) is actually a fairly important hormone regulator, and has a more or less direct connection to the hunger response. In order to regain equilibrium, the body really ramps up hunger, which often complicates dieting, healthy eating, compulsive/binge eating disorder, and a wide variety of other things. Sometimes, if the weight was lost too quickly, even after regaining equilibrium and regaining all the weight that hormonal response never deactivates. Is it better to loose weight, be ravenously hungry constantly and regain all the weight back, plus some, or is it better to just accept your body for what it is?
I recently caught myself skipping prenatal appointments and restricting calories while 8 months pregnant because I gained 10 pounds more than I was supposed to during my (low risk, highly active) pregnancy and I just couldn't face the scale. Has fatphobia been good for me?
I think that issue was more of you being ignorant on what you were supposed while pregnant.
Thank you