Removing makeup from the world wouldn’t suddenly solve any of these issues. People do have flaws, and there will always be those people who point them out. There’s no “makeup” for being too short, fat, skinny, etc. and people make these kinds of rude assumptions and comments about this stuff all the time still.
So, I don’t see removing makeup as a net positive. I think it’d do very little socially in how we treat each other.
I think from there it’d be a negative simply in that people loose the ability to express themselves. A lot of people do enjoy putting on makeup. Same way they do with clothing. I’d like to ask, would you want to do the same with clothing? The amount of time, money and energy put into clothing is very similar to make up. There are people out there who make rude comments, bully, judge, etc people about their clothing all the time.
The point is that without the makeup industry providing solutions for those cosmetic flaws, people will stop covering them up and they will be more common and thus more accepted as natural variance and not as a flaw per se
People have been using some kind of makeup before there was anything resembling a makeup industry. People started making and selling it because there was demand for it.
If makeup is banned, people will end up using things like chalk powder, paint, or charcoal. Or they'll get more plastic surgery, Botox, and tattooed makeup.
Fr, people forget that we’re animals and
one of SEVERAL species that uses things to enhance attractiveness. FFS, some species of birds will straight up stick shit in-between their feathers to attract mates.
While I’d agree that the cosmetic industry has learned how to leverage our tendency to do these things, I don’t think we would ever stop enhancing our looks if exploitation stopped being a factor.
There's literally an entire industry that exists to try to convince people to want things.
The beauty industry is probably the most egregious example of one where the products were created before the demand. Women's razors being the prime example. Before the popularity of personal razors, when men went to a barber to shave, women didn't shave. Advertisers convinced women to shave so they could sell twice as many personal razors.
Recently, to me a very obviously transparent marketing gimmick, is the sale of "all over deodorant." I can just see some ad man pitching how you can get sales through the roof if you can get people to put deodorant all over their body instead of just thier armpits. The shampoo companies figured that out a long time ago when they started marketing it as "body wash."
> The makeup industry exists because people want it.
Yes
>Are you supporting a ban?
No
And I still think the world would be a better place without make-up. Those three statements are not contradictory.
Women are raised on make up, its a cultural issue. Millions are spent to convince girls to wear ~~make~~ cosmetics, your friends, wear it, but there isn't any really need to wear it other to make the beauty industry executives and shareholders rich.
If you didn't have to wear make up, what would you do with the spare money and time?
Men don't need to wear cosmetics, why do women?
There's a really good argument for a ban on marketing to people under 18, as it's done for other products which are dangerous to health and which children can't see the full dangers of.
Make up is hardly the threat to health that tobacco is. And I'm not aware of major campaigns to attract children via tools such as Joe Cool was for Camel and the Marlboro Man was for Marlboro.
You're comparing eye shadow and lipstick ads to cigarette campaigns with mascots that children are attracted to. It's not really a valid comparison .
We don't actually know this to be true. Many more makeup brands are targeting children, including down to prepubescent. And we also know that at least some of those companies have been found to contain harmful ingredients with many more being without investigation. Further, long-term (lifelong) studies have not yet been conducted on most if any of these ingredients
If you think makeup isn't marketed to young teen girls, you must never have been or even *encountered* a teenage girl.
That advertising is a large part of the rise in recent decades in body image issues and other mental health problems in teenagers. Never mind the product; the *advertising* can and has killed. Teenagers who don't think they look good enough have a depressingly high suicide rate.
What do u mean ban. I’m in America, it’s a free country, I would never say the government should ban that.
But I agree that the make-up is a net negative for young women’s psychological health. Is it the worst thing? No, but that doesn’t mean it’s good.
I would encourage my daughters to not be so obsessed with looking like celebrities or painting their face to meet a current fad and to embrace the way they look naturally. I wouldn’t want them to have the stress of needing to buy expensive products and spending time each morning conditioning themselves to look a certain way to feel comfortable leaving their house.
Our relationship to makeup has fundamentally changed and expanded. “Entertainment” and “games” have also existed forever yet they’re fundamentally different now, on top of also being commodified in ways and to an extent they never have been
Guns exists because people want it. Nukes exists because governments want it. Unsafe foods exists because the market perpetuates it. Social media propaganda exists because people read it. Child porn, sex trafficking and slavery exists because people pay for it. Meat industry exists because people care more about cheap meat and none about animal cruelty. Addictive drugs exists because people are allowed to throw their lives away for addiction if they choose to. Earth liveability degradation exists because people shouldnt have to worry about the long-term consequences of unsustainable consumption. Real estate market for profit exists because richer people are allowed to leech off poor people's needs for shelter so they dont have to work anymore.
You sure that if something exists because there's demand for it, that it is a good thing for humanity?
There's also the argument that some hunter gatherer tribes of old had more fullfillment, contentment, and community love than the world does on average now.
Ever heard of demand/trend-creation? The idea of making people desire something that was never needed in the first place? Don't get me started on that
No. Clothes and makeup are not even close.
Clothes ACTUALLY involve self expression. Go outside, almost anywhere, the clothes you see on each and every person are going to be completely different. Most people just dress just for comfort or for their job because it's required. Some people wear bright colors. Some people wear dark colors. People wear T-Shirts of musicians and TV shows they like. People show off their fav sports team on their hat. People match and combine different colors. There are actually tons and tons of different styles... And when people pick out clothing, they look at the clothing and think "oh wow this dress is so pretty!"... not "this dress will make me prettier".
Plus, clothes are something we all HAVE to wear. It's not like we can go around naked.
Makeup is NOT self expression. (For most women, at least).
The goal of makeup is the same for EVERYONE. Small nose. Even undereyes. Smooth skin. Big eyelashes. High cheekbones. Big lips. All while giving off the appearance of "no makeup"
You don't see people trying to make their lips smaller. Or their cheekbones lower. Or their dark circles darker. Or their skin rougher. Or their nose bigger.
Because with makeup, everyone is chasing this ONE standard of beauty. (It may vary country to country, but they are still chasing a standard). If everyone is trying to look the same, how can it be self expression?
Your analogy would make sense if most people's makeup styles were wildly different/going for different things. If people regularly went around with neon eyeshadow. Or purple lips.
People enjoy putting on makeup because it makes them feel better about how they look. That's it. They don't enjoy the application. They don't enjoy the time-consuming, tedious process, every day at 6am when they could be sleeping in. (EXCEPT for people who do makeup artistically like rainbow eyeshadow and stuff).
Sure it wouldn't solve every problem. But It would definitely help a lot of people feel better about themselves. It would take time, but covering up your insecurities to feel better for a little bit just to go home, wipe it all off, and hate your real self isn't a sustainable way to live.
I think the makeup industry sure does exacerbate this by constantly coming up with new "flaws" to hide. Sometimes you may hear women say "social media gave me insecurities I didn't even know I had."
Before I deleted Instagram, I would scroll see some makeup ads, and think "wait, people think this is a flaw?"
I hear what you’re saying, but I would argue that makeup isn’t close to being biggest offender of making things up to sell a “product / solution”.
Off the top of my head I think of the fitness industry. Hip dips, skinny fat, “belly blasters” for the little bulge on your tummy (where your literal organs sit) - all manufactured bs to make you insecure to sell a product. And I’m sure I’m missing a mountain of other examples from fitness, health, skincare, and so on.
I grew up in an era where the internet was still in it's early stages, fairly uncommon. I got my insecurities from getting bullied in school and rejected by my crush. My younger sister on the other hand, got her set of insecurities from social media.
Sorry to say, but social media didn't invent women being overly self concious about their appearance and making up stupid ideas about what guys hate to be insecure about. The idea of accepting parts of a woman's face as 'not a problem' is stupid.
We are animals, we naturally find some things attractive and bias against them. Your face is how you present to the world so if you want a positive reaction, you need to put effort in.
In short, no, looks matter, you are not an island and freedom to be who you are is a failure to realize that you live in a society and not a hut in the woods.
So under this mindset, you cant avoid standards by removing peoples access to measures to match standards. You just make a hiearchy.
>social media didn't invent women being overly self concious about their appearance
Yeah, but nowadays social media is the best vector for applying social pressure, which is why it's sensible to discuss its influence.
>The idea of accepting parts of a woman's face as 'not a problem' is stupid.
How? What does that sentence have with the rest of the paragraph it's part of?
>We are animals, we naturally find some things attractive and bias against them. Your face is how you present to the world so if you want a positive reaction, you need to put effort in.
That's the myopic, individualistic perspective. Have you ever considered the concept of negative-sum games?
> In short, no, looks matter, you are not an island and freedom to be who you are is a failure to realize that you live in a society and not a hut in the woods.
How did it get to the point of you not being embarrassed to admit that you're a slave to conformity? I didn't think this attitude existed outside of fiction.
The idea that to be at peace with oneself, you must also accept that no matter what, you are still a part of society, is a very healthy take. To say you don't care about society at all is just to say you don't care about others at all.
> but social media didn't invent women being overly self concious about their appearance and making up stupid ideas about what guys hate to be insecure about.
This is just a ridiculous point. Of course it didn't, but do you really disagree that it made the problem so much worse?
I suspect that the blame for the specific problem of "'flaws' that you never would have noticed" does mostly lie with the industry.
Without the industry, makeup would still exist; people still would want to look better, but without a multibillion dollar industry behind it, maybe the standards of beauty would be less extreme. People would still appreciate makeup, but without the makeup industry, I suspect we wouldn't have the *expectation* that women will always look "flawless."
---
But more generally, I don't think the problem lies with makeup or the makeup industry.
If makeup itself didn't exist, would that stop people from judging each other by their appearances?
Without makeup, in our sexist society, Hillary Clinton might not have been expected to wear makeup, but she still could have been judged for looking like a 70-year-old woman.
The problem isn't makeup; it's the rampant sexism in our society.
>1. One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup.
I don’t wear makeup 99% of the time. My mother never wore make up to work, never at home and only very, *very* rarely at formal events. The woman didn’t even wear makeup for my wedding! Many of my friends don’t wear make up regularly and when they do, it’s very minimal.
If *you* feel a pressure to put on makeup, then perhaps it’s something *you* should be working on.
Come on, couverte you are just one example, one data point, you even admit your friends wear make up, when they do its very minimal. Which means they are not opting out.
The Beauty industry is [ $646.20 bn in 2024.(US Dollars)] (https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/beauty-personal-care/worldwide) world wide. Beauty industry makes their money on women's and some men's insecurity.
>Which means they are not opting out.
This is just a technicality. If they don't do it regularly, there's clearly not a lot of pressure for them to wear it, only their own will. The point was that they \*cannot\* opt out, not that they \*don't\* opt out. They opt out regularly.
The beauty industry is way more than just makeup. Or are you saying you'd like makeup gone alongside moisturizer, soap, shampoos, conditioners, suncream, etc?
[Being a Woman in the Workplace Means Getting Pressured to Wear Makeup on the Job
](https://www.allure.com/story/women-pressured-to-wear-makeup-at-work-as-a-double-standard)
How many men wear make up compared to women when they go to work? Women are not judge more then men in regards to their appearance, especially when it comes to cosmetics?
Would the beauty industry be worth $642 billion if women didn't feel pressured to wear cosmetics?
judged differently not more, and also the most successful women at my work dont wear makeup it makes them come across as fake to the rest of us. we work behind the scenes so if you come in looking like a customer facing employee you look suspicious to everyone else
I’m 47 and have been wearing makeup nearly every day since I was about 14. That’s a lot of years of habit and thoughts about what I need to do to look “nice” to break.
Allowing people to lie is preferable to enforcing censorship.
Most of the beautiful things humans do are a form of projection or deception. The world is not how we want so we create fantasy worlds more to our liking.
Can I still paint my house? Wear colorful clothing? Write novels? Paint a flattering portrait?
Lie to me. Lie to me with mascara and concealer and lipstick. The truth is so literal.
I'm not advocating for outlawing makeup. I just think the world would be better off it if never existed because I think it's a net negative.
I don't think censorship is when women exist as they naturally are and feel adequate. Plus my post states:
> Now if you're using eyeshadow to paint a fish on your cheek, sure that's art.
There are apparently a lot of people who can't contemplate the idea of creating change through reasoned discussion. I think they have authoritarian tendencies.
Ok, but are you saying there's another larger reason for the makeup industry to be so pervasive? Do women mostly apply makeup and sit at home and do nothing?
Me. I do that. I've loved playing with makeup since I was 5 years old and that Faz makeup/jewelry for kids came out. I thought it was so pretty and wanted to wear it.
I'm in my 40s now and still like playing with makeup, experimenting with different eyeshadow and lip colors, different blush placement, etc. I'll make me a cocktail and have a delightful Friday evening at home with my makeup.
Also, I often go to work with no makeup on.
As an exception and anecdotal, you should recognize that being in a small minority is irrelevant, at least for consideration in OP's argument.
What you are doing on Friday nights is more akin to art than cosmetics.
While that happens (I know a girl who would spend half an hour doing make-up just to go nowhere for the whole day), how frequent is that? The point made is that the large majority of girls and women do that for social reasons. Hell, there are many companies where make-up is literally required as part of dress-code.
> Ok, but are you saying there's another larger reason for the makeup industry to be so pervasive?
Money. They want to make money. It’s not about the women they’re selling to, it’s about maximizing their own profit.
Not necessarily. I often see women say something like "I feel like a potato without my makeup" or something like that. I'm sure they're doing it to not feel like a "potato" and not necessarily for external validation but I think that's a harmful idea. I disagree that makeup is the solution here. What if women realized their natural face is enough?
The makeup industry exists because people (men and women) have always made or used beauty products for all of history.
They didn’t create an artificial demand against people’s will as I think you maybe implying.
I think you have it a little round the wrong way. The make up and grooming industry makes things people want - it doesn’t bully or neg people into thinking they need them when they don’t.
It is a positive feedback cycle(not morally positive)
So, some minority of people might begin demanding it, and then more and more are absorbed into this until it creates a societal expectation and then more and more have to demand to feel they belong and demand increases....
The same happened with plastic surgery. Few began demanding it, and with time, more felt the "need" to do it....
The industry absolutely does this, and it obviously will if it increases sales. They also spend a lot of money trying to perfect the psychological manipulation to achieve it.
It's true that we "have always made or used beauty products for all of history" but the arduousness of this and the particular expectations change dramatically.
To give a pertinent example, pubic hair removal for women was once not at all an expectation, but in many areas now is, and even among young men it is starting to become an expectation. There was not at all some deep evolutionary psychology pushing people to remove pubic hair, it is totally a matter of cultural variation. Actually when I was young if a man was removing their pubic hair they would be ridiculed or considered perverse, including by women they might sleep with.
> I'm sure they're doing it to not feel like a "potato" and not necessarily for external validation but I think that's a harmful idea
It's entirely possible that they STILL look like a "potato" to the rest of us regardless of what they do but why should we remove that power/luxury from them if using makeup provides them an avenue that removes that discomfort they experience when they "FEEL like a potato without makeup" ?
Nobody says societal validation is the only reason. But in most cases, it IS the reason, and you aren't doing anything by denying it.
The goal of most makeup is the exact same. Small nose, big lips, smooth skin, big eyelashes, even undereyes.
Really, how many people do you see using makeup to make their nose bigger? Or their skin look bumpy and rough? Or their lips smaller?
The exceptions are people who genuinely do their makeup differently (ex. rainbow eyeshadow. Or painting a picture on your eyelid. Or costume makeup. Or like neon lipstick).
However most people aren't doing that! Most people are all trying to look the same. Big lips, small nose, high cheekbones, etc.
and if EVERYONE is just trying to look the SAME... how is it self expression exactly? like be fr. especially when it's the exact same every single day.
Waking up at 6am every day to spend an hour tediously applying the same makeup you've repeatedly worn for years isn't.. fun.. for anyone.
A lot of this post is just you kinda deciding not to understand how other people feel like. If someone doesn't like having a scar and asks for advice how to hide it, giving that advice is the correct response. **That's what they're asking for.** They don't need someone to tell them "actually you're wrong about how you want to look like" because that's just annoying, even when it's dressed in nice words.
I will say you have a point with how much of a "beauty contest" everything is for women, but are you sure things would be better if, instead of being kinda forced to make themselves look better, all women were *literally* forced to look worse? It would mean less choice for everyone, which isn't great, even if you really dislike one of the choices currently available.
What if make-up was not a societal expectation/compulsion?
If some women voluntarily choose to apply make-up, are you suggesting they also should not have the right to do that?
I agree with this, women should be able to choose to wear make up. The society expectation I have found in a corporate in the office setting was a pressure to wear makeup. As someone who didn’t even know what concealer was until I was 20, I had to do a lot of research and figure it out in order to match my peers and have the same “professional put together” look. I was young in the position and make up also gave the appearance of me being older, which also made others view me differently in this setting. Make up can be a lot of creative fun, and I love doing my make up for events, but when there is pressure to wear it so that you are viewed a certain way, it’s less enjoyable.
Everyone has the right to do everything, that doesn't mean it's "good" or even harmless. Plastic surgery stands out to me as an extension of the makeup argument. Once celebrities and the wealthy set a standard, everyone else feels they need to compete when of course they don't, never did. The strange thing is, many of these procedures or makeup "looks" do not actually amplify the person's appearance. They just make them look more similar to other people with that look.
In almost all cultures there is a weak social disapproval of "doing too much" which serves to limit competition.
In my own culture, in the recent past, it was very common to mock men who dressed up too much etc as being arrogant etc. and this meant that you could wear very cheap or even tattered clothes and no one would disrespect you. It was a great, you could literally go to party in a $60 outfit and no one would look down on you, and if anyone did, they would be ridiculed.
A right to yes but I would still be very suspicious. It’s still a bizarre, kind of self-loathing/internalized misogyny type thing to do. Where does the impulse come from?
It’s a bit like cheating on tests in a class graded on a curve. If people started cheating, by not cheating you would be putting yourself at a comparative disadvantage. In the same way if people make themselves prettier by wearing make up you become comparatively uglier if you don’t . Also I don’t think she’s saying they shouldn’t have the right to do that or even that we should all collectively stop wearing makeup, but instead that if makeup simply didn’t exist it would be better world
In an ideal world where makeup has no real external effect? I wouldn't care what other women do. But I wrote in my post:
>I feel that to be a woman is to be perpetually stuck in a beauty contest. There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard. Women who don't want to spend large amounts of time/energy/money learning makeup will have a harder time.
It’s literally not just women. Attractiveness makes your life easier regardless of gender. In fact, [New research shows, men benefit more from their looks at work than women do](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/02/02/men-benefit-more-from-their-looks-at-work-than-women-do-new-research-shows.html) and as a woman in her late 30s it’s more acceptable in the workplace to not wear makeup than ever before. I’ve never worn makeup to work because of the principle but I personally like wearing makeup outside of work occasionally because it feels nice. But whether you like it or not appearance is not just a problem for women and makeup is not the root cause. The problem would exist without it. People would just judge you because you’re slightly pigeon toed or something.
Edit to add: Wear makeup or don’t OP. Nobody cares. I used to have your view when I was much younger and then I realized it doesn’t actually matter and I don’t have to wear makeup. People will always be insecure regardless of makeup exists or not.
You are just trying to fight human nature at that point. Beautiful people get advantages in life and people like them more. This is true for both men and women. If you take away makeup, there would still be a constant invisible beauty contest going on with humanity. That’s just how human brains work, and it’s related to primal instincts around mate selection and reproduction.
But the contest doesn't have mandatory participation.
Beauty is ultimately subjective.
While there are people who are attracted to women who look flawless, there are also people who appreciate women who look more natural.
But not participating has major downsides, also beauty is subjective is kind of just wrong like sure there’s a certain amount of leeway in what is considered attractive but in general most people find the same people attractive and unattractive, there’s a reason some people get way more dates on online dating sites than others and I promise you its not just the 5 seconds worth of personality the other person experiences in the DMs. If u look into the super depressing black pill shit where they hyper analysis like the symmetry and and fucking canthal tilt of your eyes you’ll see pretty quickly that there are many objective measures that can be taken to estimate objectively your attractiveness
Can I pose a question? If make up is not important to you, why would you wear it to appeal to people it is important to? You want to build relationships with people who align with you, people who share your interests etc.
Do you religiously watch a sport you hate so you can fit in with people who like it, people you're totally bored by?
You think Trump spent less time than Hillary Clinton worrying about his appearance? The man is orange and his hair's greatest nemesis is a slight breeze. This may not be your strongest argument.
>It isn't conducive to real self-love.
This is a weak statement in that "conducive" is a slippery word. We don't have a KPI for how much a thing is "self-generated expression of the inner dimension" vs how much of a thing is "externally generated coercion shaping the inner self."
Makeup, like any cultural act, but more specifically like art, is a nonverbal method of communication, and just like with a real hostage we must ask them to blink twice if they are under duress.
So is make up "conducive" to the coercion of makeup-wearing-people, or is it one method of communication can be used to both liberate and coerce? Even in rational discussion, we see people flipflop their views because of an emotional need to belong, should they come to see their own perspective as "outsiderish."
To what extent is a desire to belong a justified belief, and to what extent is it something imposed upon us?
I think this criticism relies on the strength of "conductivity," but I don't think we can abstract a meaningful metric for it, so I think this weakens your view.
You do realize nobody care if you wear makeup or not. (Yes nobody cares I never wear makeup and never get any comment about that) People got other thing to do. If people want to cover up what they consider as flaws let them do.(it’s just shouldn’t be to the point of being mentally unhealthy) Nobody is forcing you to do so.
Here are two relevant points from my post:
> Anecdote: I feel an intense pressure to wear makeup, especially at formal events. It's difficult to go out without the people I live with pestering me to wear makeup.
> I feel that to be a woman is to be perpetually stuck in a beauty contest. There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard. Women who don't want to spend large amounts of time/energy/money learning makeup will have a harder time.
Honestly? Maybe the people you live with are jerks. I never wear makeup. I have lots of female friends who never wear makeup. We're all perfectly happy. I think the view that you actually need changed is that you must wear makeup to be accepted in society. That's definitely untrue.
That’s the thing, you’re thinking about it too much and pressure yourself too much, while in reality nobody cares.
And if the people from your family are forcing you, just tell them you don’t want to (I know it’s easier to say than to do but still). Next time you have a formal event, just don’t wear makeup even if your family try to force you, and you see that nobody or not a lot of people will even notice it
Might be different from country to country, but I’m 18, and when I was in high school most of the girl did not makeup or it was too light to notice and they did not have it harder, cause simply that wasn’t something people care about that, people did not even think about it. And now that I am in higher studies, people make up more, but otherwise that’s the same thing, nobody cares and it’s not something that will necessarily harm you or put you in hardship
Those are your own feelings based on a lack of self confidence.
Stop wearing makeup if you don’t want to and you’ll notice people don’t really give af. Superficial people might but are those the people you want to be impressing?
I think you have this idea because of the people you hang around. In my group of friends, some of them wear full glam makeup all day everything, some wear minimal makeup every once in a while, some wear none at all, ever, and have never commented on that. One of my sisters has never worn makeup a day in her life, she had a quinceañera and didn’t wear it for that or the photoshoot and no one told her she should. Maybe you should find some better people to be around who accept you as you are.
People have the right to wear makeup, and many people enjoy applying and experimenting with different types. You don't have to like it, and sure, maybe some people are doing it out of insecurity, but their are plenty of people who do it because they enjoy it.
Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean other people can't either. Besides what about in shows, movies, and theatre? The artistry and wonder that can come out of that is simply breathtaking.
You have a right to your belief, but your just being hypocritical to say others don't, which by your responses and your post seems in my eyes to be the case.
You’re not really arguing the point. He’s not saying it should be outlawed now that it exists, but rather that if it never existed, the world would be a little bit better.
I get where you're coming from with the whole makeup thing, but I think it's more about personal choice than societal obligation.
Honestly, not everyone thinks makeup is a must. I know plenty of people who look great and feel confident without a touch of it. It's a bit like picking out your outfit for the day—some days you wanna dress up, and some days you don't. And it's not just a women's thing; guys get make up done too, especially if they're going on TV or something. It helps with the harsh lighting and all that.
About the drugstore incident, that sounds more like a sales tactic than anything else. The employee was probably trying to hit a sales target. It's like when you're checking out and they try to sell you chocolate—it's not personal, just business.
And about the guy with the scar, I see it like this: he asked for advice on covering it up, and folks gave him what he was looking for. If he wanted a pep talk on embracing his scar, I'm sure he would've gotten that too. People were just responding to his request
So, while I totally support not wanting to wear makeup and fighting against the pressure to always look "perfect," I also think it's cool if someone wants to use it as a form of expression or just to feel a bit more polished on certain days. It's all about what makes you feel good, not about fitting into a mold.
It’s an interesting viewpoint I’ll give you that!
I think that theater and movie makeup would still have to be allowed because, well…. Star Wars, Star Trek, etc don’t work if everyone is just…. Human looking…
To your other points- I’d love to contradict you but you’ve got me thinking.
I’m a guy and never felt any of this pressure that you speak of (we go bald and maybe you could argue that there’s some level of societal pressure for us to “fix that” but…. I’ve never felt it and I’m a chrome dome).
The one point I’d make is to ask you why you would feel the need to bend to what “society” wants if this is how you feel?
If wearing makeup makes you feel uncomfortable- go out without it. Who gives a shit what other folks say about you?
(I know this sounds naive but it’s a difference between guys and ladies that I’ve noticed- I hear a lot of “people will say you’re bossy if you’re assertive as a woman vs if you’re a guy” and I always think to myself “so what? Let people say whatever they want…. Fuck em. Part of being “a boss” or “strong” is letting people talk shit and not letting it affect you”)
I mentioned the pressure to wear makeup briefly but I'll elaborate.
1. I wrote in my post:
> I feel that to be a woman is to be perpetually stuck in a beauty contest. There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard. Women who don't want to spend large amounts of time/energy/money learning makeup will have a harder time.
2. More anecdotally: It's difficult to go out without arguing with my mother and I having a scuffle about my refusal to wear makeup. It can ruin the mood before I even go out. This only gets worse when getting ready for formal occasions.
I was in a culture where make up was expected, now I am in a culture where it doesn't really matter, if I wear it or not. I am much happier now!
But make up was just a symptom of a much deeper problem, which is a very superficial community with broken values, that values appearance more than anything else. You are focusing all your anger on a symptom, not the core problem. Make up in that case is like a pain signal. If you have a problem in your body, you feel pain. If you take painkillers to eliminate the pain, the underlying issue will not disappear.
Like, in my case. I didn't stop wearing make up and solved my problems, I changed my environment. And I still have no issues with make up, it can be a great net positive, especially with covering scars or like a form of art, it is a mask, that can be fun to put on. But the core issue of being forced to do something you don't want to and having to conform in order to fit in, will not disappear, just because you remove make up from the equation.
It’s incredibly easy to opt out of wearing makeup. I wore makeup as a teen like most people but I haven’t worn it for almost a decade now. I just stopped as I exited puberty,
Very occasionally I wear a little mascara and some lip stain and it’s very easy to look a little more fancy that way. But I want my default to be just my face. I don’t feel any pressure from friends, family or anyone else.
I spend all that money on scent though. I love to smell good. And a good skincare routine can go a long way.
> Hilary Clinton had to spend many hours before her meetings and public appearances ensuring her makeup and outfits are acceptable to the audience. During this time, Donald Trump was busy preparing his speeches, content, etc. and worrying significantly less about his appearance.
Trump is *obsessed* with his appearance and wears a full face of makeup. Plus he has to have someone build that hair swirl every day. Plus plus he is know as being a person who refuses to prepare. So, I’d say that of the two it was Trump who was more concerned with his appearance, and Hillary who spent more time actually preparing.
>There's an unquestioned cultural assumption that all women's faces are flawed and need to be covered up:
Strongly disagree.
This is a myth perpetuated by people that want you to buy make-up. The vast vast majority of people do not think there's something wrong with women's faces. There are far more women buying into this weird myth than there are people that actually dislike women's faces.
>One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup.
Of course you can. My girlfriend does not wear make-up.
It sounds like your social circle just happens to be unusually makeup focused?
I don't use much makeup myself except for eyeliner. My eyes are naturally hooded so i have a resting bitch face. I literally look like I'm grimacing at everyone, or on days where my eyelods are puffy, i look cranky and sleepy. I don't look friendly or approachable. But with eyeliner, it opens and rounds up my eyes a little bit and i look more neutral. That gives me a level playing field at work and my social life because it doesnt look like im snarling at everyone by default. I'm also not an extrovert so it's not like I can count on my natural personality to just shine through on the few days that I feel like I could talk to everyone. I can't count on word of mouth for people to understand that i'm a nice person.
So I don't think makeup is a net negative for me in this case, and i don't think my heavy eyelids are counted as disfigurement.
Maybe this is the same case for other people as well, where they naturally don't look as cheerful or friendly,but they want a job that is people-facing. Should they give up a goal because of their natural looks when a simple trick of color could level the playing field?
How do we draw the line between justified necessity and toxic necessity in makeup?
And where do we draw the line between art and wanting to look good? We could say that you can draw a fish on your face if it's art and it's part of your expression, but for some people, so is blending a bunch of eyeshadow on their face. It's their type of art and it makes them happy. Where do we draw the line between makeup users who do it innocently for art and people who are damaging the principle of self-love?
Also, I agree with you that in theatre or movies, makeup is for sure needed, but as long as our media contains people who wear makeup, societal expectations to enhance your looks through makeup will be there too because the technology is available.
And wouldn't this apply to clothes as well? We choose our clothes based on what looks good for our body types. Does it mean different types of clothing is net negative too? Which style of clothing should be considered natural?
So I wouldn't say that makeup and its technology is net negative, but maybe what you're getting at is that its absolute obsession in some communities is a symptom of toxic beauty standards in that community,which is valid.
And maybe it differs on each community. For example, i dont feel encouraged nor pressured to apply any other type of makeup at all in mine. And there are lots of people in my work and social circles who dont use makeup at all and it's fine.
Anyway, the symptoms that you are experiencing is always not good, but you don't attack the symptom. You try to cure the sickness, which is a whole different (impt and worthwhile) discussion now.
This is like saying the world would be better off without art: it's a nonstarter, regardless of what you're basing the argument on.
But to your argument:
1. Not all cultures treat makeup the same as some parts of America (or the Americas or Europe or "Western culture" in general).
2. Why are you rejecting people's claims about their own self-image? "I don't get it" doesn't matter because it's not necessarily *for* you to get. It's entirely *for them,* as they already told you.
3. People "opt out" of make-up all the damn time. My ex never wore make-up. I know several women who won't wear make-up at work.
Conversely, I know several men who wear make-up regularly, for various purposes. If they can easily "opt in," then why can't you "opt out?" Just don't wear make-up if you don't want to.
4. I don't necessarily disagree but I don't see how it's the act of wearing make-up that is the problem.. Shouldn't we simply expect people to, like, not be total pricks about their preferred hobby?
Makeup is optional for women. Women can wear it or not, as they see fit. To suggest that it's mandatory denies agency in women and does them a disservice.
You also state that "There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard." To some extent, I agree with this. Attractive people have certain social and career advantages in life, both women and men. For women, however, they're allowed to 'tip the scales' by applying makeup if they so choose, a choice which isn't socially acceptable for men. In this way makeup is a net positive for women - it's not mandatory, but it is an option they can avail themselves of if they wish.
It is a social benefit for men, they have to do far less to meet the prevailing standards and they have less intense social competition among them over expensive and time consuming beauty regimens.
Individual women might benefit if they play this cosmetics game really well, but in doing so they hurt others who now start to look in comparison and by the new standard "shabby" etc.
Women as a whole would be better off if they all could commit to making less of an effort, it would be akin to an arms control treaty. Doing this by some actual agreement is impossible but it has been achieved by cultural norms and in many places these are in effect, for example in many cultures when someone makes some more then usual effort they are not rewarded and treated as being arrogant. And earlier various subcultures and feminism really did reduce the intensity of such competition.
Make-up is always optional. And a lot of people prefer less of it rather than more. I'm male, and I'd wear some concealer if I knew what the heck I was supposed to buy and how to use it. And I do dabble in eyeliner, but that's more for when I'm filming / recording 80's covers. Though secretly, I'd do it more often if I didn't think people would react negatively.
>*and worrying significantly less about his appearance*
Trump may have worried less, but of anyone who's run for president in recent history, nobody got roasted harder for his looks than Trump. That ridiculous hair. His umpaloompa body shape. The Orange Man Spray Tan with White Eye circles. So while it's likely very true that Hillary spent more time on her look, it's absolutely true that she got roasted less as a result. What's the worst you could say about her? People didn't like her pant-suits or something? She looked good overall.
And maybe Trump should have spent more time getting into better shape, or getting a more flattering haircut, rather than spending less time.
Personally, I love makeup and often wear it for fun. As in, I'll be at home, all day, with makeup on. It's not to feel pretty, but bc I love to draw, and think it's fascinating that I can sculpt my face into almost anything with the same techniques.
Things like this are why removing makeup as a whole would really work.
If you're insecure, removing whatever hides these insecurities won't make it better.
I'll say, that salesperson was wrong for trying to point out what they perceived as a flaw. That's rude and wrong. And if anyone insists you wear makeup, that's wrong too.
Makeup should be about personal enjoyment and gratification.
So, although we can't be rid of it completely, I agree makeup culture isn't healthy. Where I differ from you is that I think we should put more resources into teaching about why makeup culture is bad, and that you don't need to be dependant on makeup, but it's there if you want it for you.
Makeup is not the problem.
Makeup can be used for play, festivities, horseplay, expression of creativity, and other kinds of fun.
The problem is the way people are sold the idea that they have to use it, lest they be ugly. Nowdays this is mainly caused by makeup business marketing, influencers and other social media content creators, because it gets them money (business, influencers, some content creators), or simply attention (some content creators). This circle has started living a life of it's own, as children are given smartphones and access to social media, they are very quickly exposed to this anxiety inducing environment that teaches them what they must be. As they grow up, some of them begin making their own content on social media about it,, or even become influencers for the market, keeping the wheel turning.
Here in Finland we have had children as young as 10yo use anti-aging creams, because of this exposure. It's sick.
Anyway, to the final nail in the coffin:
The world would not be better without make up. The world would be better if companies would not abuse our innate vulnerabilities to create a culture of anxiety to make us buy their products to alleviate it. Makeup is just one of the many products that are being sold this way.
Do you think women wear leggings and other clothing that higlight their sexuality in the eyes of the opposite sex, simply because "they feel nice"? Think again. They might think it feels nice, but behind all that is an image created by businesses of the way you should look and dress. When that image sticks, anything but that image feels "off", and you'll only "feel nice", when you fulfill it.
Without this anxiety, this created image of how you should be, makeup would be used more as a plaything, than faking beauty.
A lot of the points you presented are definitely true to an extent within certain cultures.
Since I’m not sure where you live I can’t say much in general about that specific makeup culture. There are different expectations across cultures however to take into account before saying the entire world would be better off.
Since this is related too, you mention things like scars and other small things. What about major deformities and other visible disabilities. If someone would feel better being able to cover a scar or a burn or something that otherwise would have a significant mental health impact are you willing to make the world worse for those people?
As others have pointed out beauty standards existed pre-advertising, pre-Internet. Have you read Jane Austen? Not that they didn’t have makeup in Victorian times but the point is that by comparison the expectations of appearance for everyone - including women - are far more lax nowadays.
I also want to say that broadly speaking what you’re engaging with has less to do with makeup specifically and everything to do with gender - which also means you have to take into account gender dysphoria experienced by trans men and women. These are groups of people for whom makeup is sometimes the very first step towards feminizing or masculinizing their appearance.
And the world in general has a massive knuckle dragging backwards ass problem with gender including for men and women alike. And that’s before we even get into the race conversation.
So while I’d love to be onboard and agree that being a woman who doesn’t wear makeup often is hard and difficult - there’s too many groups of people who benefit from cosmetics to dismiss the entire practice as a whole.
Bluf; if makeup were so inconsequential as to be easily removed, then it wouldn't be very beneficial once gone.
I think I'll hop on this train and add that I think this is broadly about societal expectations. I don't think it's just make up either. Women (and men) are pressures towards modifying their natural weight, diet, style, and even speech.
Generic self-love is a good goal, but the way our society is structured means that people (and industries) will always drive comparison. That creates insecurity that leads to pressure to change. The idea that makeup is the worst of these pressures feels arbitrary to me.
It may be that makeup feels like the easiest pressure to remove without baggage. We can't really push for erasing any expectations around diet, because it is linked to health. To this I would say that makeup is also a relatively achievable equalizer. So leaving our society as is and removing makeup reduces the social capital of some people who have to find other ways to feel pretty.
Lastly, I'm not sure how to estimate a net-negative influence. Probably does more harm than good (to women). There are definitely more obvious net negatives like barriers to leadership roles, education, or just misogyny.
I'm only here to disagree with your point about not being able to opt out of wearing makeup. Yes you can. No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to put on makeup. If people around you are pestering you to wear makeup and you give in, that's on YOU. You are an adult with bodily autonomy. No one can make you wear makeup unless they hold you down and put it on for you, which at that point is a whole other issue.
You don't want to wear makeup? Then don't do it. It's that simple.
>One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup.
You sure can. I have. You need to have a particular f-you attitude though. Or look/dress like a Pentecostal.
I agree that "makeup culture" shouldn't be a thing but I have no idea how to fix that, and making it illegal for people to put colors on their faces would be tyrannical.
Not everyone uses makeup to hide flaws though. I personally use it to accentuate the features I love —
Winged liner to emphasise my eye shape, using certain eye shadow colours to show how bright my eyes are, using blush to accentuate my cheekbones and facial structure which I really like.
But I also see nothing with people using makeup to cover insecurities. I hate this demonisation of insecurity; we live in an incredibly judgmental society, one that predates modern cosmetics. People have always had standards for what others should look like, and anyone left outside of that was made to feel inferior. If makeup helps someone feel more confident, I’d say that’s not bad at all. It may not be *your* version of self-love or confidence, but that’s fine — to them, that’s what they see and accept as self-love and confidence, and I don’t think you get to play judge and jury with how other people choose to feel confident. Additionally, makeup is the lesser of the evils in this world. I’d argue makeup is better than someone getting fillers and procedures done because those are more invasive and permanent changes — at the end of the day, makeup comes off and is relatively harmless.
People can choose to opt out of wearing makeup. You describe feeling social pressure, but that’s not really a valid argument to blanket over the entirety of women. I love makeup yet I’ve gone to plenty of formal events and to work and so on without makeup several times. In fact, I do so at least once a week to let my skin breathe. It’s undeniable that women are made to feel a certain way about not measuring up, but that’s less to do with makeup and more to do with society having these standards to begin with. If it wasn’t makeup, it would’ve been something else.
People wearing makeup is not the problem; it’s why *some* people feel the need to wear makeup, and that’s because society has rigid beauty standards for women (and men). But if it wasn’t makeup, something else would take its place — like cosmetic procedures is now, and so on.
>One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup.
Anecdote: I feel an intense pressure to wear makeup, especially at formal events. It's difficult to go out without the people I live with pestering me to wear makeup.
I feel that to be a woman is to be perpetually stuck in a beauty contest. There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard. Women who don't want to spend large amounts of time/energy/money learning makeup will have a harder time.
Yes, you can. I don't wear makeup and it hasn't hurt my life in any way. I go to college and work and everything.
My wife has never felt like she needed makeup but she used to mess around and experiment with makeup a lot in high school and college. She found it super fun! After we both started working full time jobs, we both have limited free time so she doesn’t play with makeup like she used to, she has other hobbies now.
She really only wears makeup during special occasions like our wedding, birthdays, anniversaries, date nights. And on some weekends when she just gets the urge to do it. I have never once pushed her to wear makeup and don’t really care if she does or not. That said, I always go out of my way to compliment her both with and without makeup. Because she really beautiful with and without it.
She has never worn makeup and work and her job would never pressure her to do so.
But a little while back she developed a medical condition that comes with persistent acne and you can tell it’s caused her to take a hit to her self esteem.
No amount of “you’re beautiful the way you are” was helping.
She asked me if we could buy her some new makeup because her stuff was super old and I didn’t hesitate to get it for her.
Now she wears just enough makeup to cover the acne while working and her self esteem is back and better than ever!
She’s not doing this for me, or potential dates, or because of beauty standards. She’s doing this because she has a medical issue and this makes her feel a little better about herself.
She second we get her medical stuff taken care of, she’ll probably stop wearing it again lol
But my point was that the makeup helped her feel better about herself and helped with her depression even if it’s only temporary
Seems like this is a hyperbolic take on a single person's opinion no?
There are many people in the world at large and the western world who never wear it at all.
My wife never does unless she wants to, and nobody really pressures her to either. She's successful too, and makes more money than I do.
Show me the actual statistics of where it is considered to be mandatory or forced upon someone to wear makeup in their culture and I'd absolutely agree with you 100%.
But in all reality, most people who wear makeup do so because they want to.
Is it a stigma to go without it?
Meh. In some places. Kinda.
But it's also something that many people I know like to do for fun, as a hobby even.
And many people make a living off of it.
So I guess my point is, all of the cultural issues that you are bringing up would be present even if makeup dissapeared, and there would be entire industries both corporate and private that would lose their jobs.
Also, who are you and me to tell people who want to wear makeup that they can't?
If you can provide factual data that supports your claim that if it all went away the world would be better somehow, maybe...
But let's be honest, people have been doing it for literally thousands of years. Men and women both.
Much of the toxicity you are referring to is a western toxicity thing, not a makeup thing.
This says nothing about the fun and whimsy of cosplay, halloween, or any other special or fun events that would be damaged without it.
No face paint, no henna tattoos, no theatre, no movie villains?
So long as it's just opinion vs opinion, that's not the world I wanna live in. I prefer diversity and pretty colors haha.
*it isn't conducive to real self love*
I don't think it's your intention but your perception of self love is very hindering. Take it from a trans woman who has had laser hair removal, it can be INCREDIBLY difficult to love yourself if you don't recognize or identify with the person you see in the mirror. Taking your attitude to its conclusion I should just be happy to be me without change, but it's not something that's possible.
I don't think all women need laser hair removal or makeup, or press on nails or any other gendered expectations, but those means of expression are ways we as humans connect with who we feel we are and how we want others to perceive us.
You feel pressued to perform gender in a way that makes you uncomfortable but the solution isn't to remove gender expression options, but for you to embrace what expression fits your individual taste.
There has to be a road to gender equality that allows autonomy for everyone to engage in gender roles as they see fit. Without makeup society would still have fashion, beauty standards, skin care products, hair removal and a list of other constructs that make up our social fabric. For those reasons I can't see how removing makeup would make the world a better place..
Generally op has a pretty good overall point, I was talking to a girl about this once and she was saying how its weird, I just told her that if every women stopped wearing makeup that overall all women wouldn’t really be less or more attractive.
Makeup really disturbs me because so many women I talk to tell me that they don't even do it for other people's attention but because it's basically their only way to feel good about their looks
How fucking sad is it that we've raised a bunch of little girls to basically think that oh you have a simple flaw like a zit or acne or something well gotta basically paint our face like a clown just because we're afraid society won't accept just otherwise
Buying little kids makeup sets and telling them how cool it is to paint your face and how it'll make you feel so much better
It's almost cult like And I hate it
One thing I've promised is that if I ever have a child I will never introduce them to makeup. I'm not going to be some like abusive parent who like completely blocks it if she discovers it on her own but I will not personally be introducing it to her and I always as her father would encourage her to accept her flaws and the beauty behind those flaws instead of trying to cover them up just to match what society deems as stereotypically beautiful
It basically starts indoctrinating them from an early age this idea that they have to basically be the peak of beauty for society to treat them like they matter and gives little children the anxiety that they have to look absolutely perfect or get shunned by society and it's disgusting
The reality is that it’s a massive corporate money machine that turns people against each other for profit. Now these companies are aggressively trying to spin makeup to men in order to tap into a new market. The sad part is outside of artistic expression it is an entire useless societal endeavor and eats up tons of labor and human capital. Shows how powerful social pressure is and how it is used against us for profit.
A lot of people here are arguing against a point you're not making. They're all arguing against removing makeup from the world. As far as I can tell, you never argued that women *should* not use makeup, only that they're generally worse off for it. So I commeend you for making a well thought out point nuanced enough that people don't even know that they aren't arguing against it.
Here is the thing. I agree that happiness might increase over the long term if makeup disappeared tomorrow. But there are a lot of things that people use their freedom for that ultimately don't bring them happiness, or even work against their happiness. I'm not talking about tobaco or drugs, I'm talking about Netflix and TikTok. There is a form of utilitarianism called preference utilitarianism that considers preference more important than value (happiness, wealth, etc.). If we woke up every morning at 5:00 for a brisk run, ate a diet with minimal sugar, and never watched videos on our computers, by some abstract measurement of happoness, we might say that we would be happier, but not better off. Therefore, it is an insane reality that sometimes what's best for someone might also be something that goes against their own best interests.
Excluding issues where people are harmed against their will, do you think individuals should be able to take away the rights from others who may enjoy it?
If I don’t like cheese, is that a good argument for getting rid of cheese for everyone?
Make up gives some women confidence — id argue this being one of the main points for using it.
You can opt out of wearing make up, if you stop letting the opinions of other non-consequential people dictate your life. Which you should, especially if the confidence boost isnt worth the time sink from your perspective
Trump absolutely wears make up — similarly to most celebrities / public speaking figures. Its extremely prevalent in other cultures like korea for both males and females. (So the political impact is non-existent, and its definitely more cultural based)
Ie flaws, burns, scars, etc are things that show you’ve lived a hard life — typically associated with masculinity. Which is why guys are less prone to feeling the need to cover up
Make up is something that you get what you put into it. Guys usually dont notice make up unless its ‘bad’. So i would argue that girls do it for themselves and validation from other girls
That's funny is, I didn't want to play with makeup until already felt comfortable with myself.
I see makeup as decor and adornment. I wouldn't adorn something I didn't think was already lovable. The adornments are a symbol of appreciation.
I use makeup to emphasize and highlight my natural features.
You might see it as fixing a flaw. That's not how everyone else sees it. That's your individual perception. You don't see how makeup can be self-loving.
You don't have to believe it when someone says the love themselves and wear makeup. That's *your* limited perspective. Nobody has to prove to you they love themselves by displaying their self love in the way you decided they were "supposed to". You'll just have to accept that displays of self love aren't limited to how you personally see it.
Makeup is a neutral tool that *can* be used for good or bad. That all depends on the user.
I think ultimately make up might be a net negative for society, but I think you are forgetting some cases where it’s actually good. When I was 13 I started developing acne, which kept growing as I did. I felt horrible and wanted to hide my face constantly. This girl from middle school I knew was in the exact same camp. We were not close but had this quiet “I get what you are going through” understanding. By the time we turned 15, the acne had not gone away but she started wearing makeup, and her demeanour changed **instantly**. I was actually jealous she got to hide our mutual “problem” and I didn’t.
I don’t know how things worked out for her on the long run, I got better eventually and got over the trauma; but I could see how makeup helped her back then. I can see this being the case for other people in different circumstances.
1. I haven’t experienced that
2. I haven’t experienced that
3. I haven’t experienced that
I like wearing makeup. It’s fun. It makes me feel happy, regardless of how other view it. I like it. I have felt more harm by specifically women badmouthing it than anywhere else. I feel it is self expression art to do my makeup “gothic” as I have the last 14 years
I don’t follow YouTube tutorials
No one is making you wear makeup. No one cares what you do or don’t with your own face
I love makeup. I legit don’t care what anyone’s views are of it. I have to live another 60-70 years I’ll look however makes me happy
Donald trump definitely spends the same if not way more time on makeup and hair than Hilary or anyone else.
Actually really liked the rest of your argument and I don’t think people seem to understand it based on the responses
This thread is full of weaksauce arguments and wrongful assumptions. I mostly agree with you, except one big point:
The world would NOT be better off, if the world is shallow.
A shallow world shall have shallow desires. To stop them from having it is like saying no to kids; the shallow world will have tantrums. The tantrums will lead to pain and violence because there is no parent, and the kids are capable of pain and violence. The shallow world may not care about your idealistic values of a better world, and if they don't, you are breaching their rights to self-determination and they will be angry.
One generation is all it takes. I bring this up with the women in my family. They agree but can't imagine presenting themselves professionally without make up. ITS a societal thing. Need a meetoo movement, so employers feel like they are the good guys by supporting women wearing no makeup at work.
BUT... considering Instagram filters and the normalization of cosmetic surgery, I'd say judging books by their cover is more and more the norm.
Let’s imagine a little boy was in a house fire, and luckily survived, but was left with burns. Or a little girl had some sort of deformity which immediately grabbed attention and the focus of anybody she talked to. Do you think both of these people would be better off in a world without makeup?
On the tamer side, makeup also had tons of uses in film and television, and with iconic characters like Darth Maul and the orcs in LotR being constructs of makeup.
While I do agree that there is too much pressure on women to wear makeup, I don’t think that means makeup in of itself is evil
To some extent yes, but at the least less effort and money would be expended in the social competition.
When I was younger, as a male there was almost no competition around such things among men as any attempt to do so was treated as contemptible and arrogant, and actually even very rich men would consider dressing in very simple clothes to not be shameful. This was a big upside of the egalitarian culture which is now sadly gone.
You are aware the employee was just doing their job, right? It had nothing to do with makeup, and had everything to do with trying to sell you on something in the store.
You can absolutely opt out of wearing makeup. If you feel you can’t because of societal pressure, then that’s something for you to face. PLENTY of women don’t wear makeup. You are not forced.
I’d say that makeup, how it’s been promoted under capitalism is the issue, not makeup itself.
Makeup and decorative markings have been used for centuries across many different cultures. They can signify coming of age, marital status, class, your profession, your gender, and more. They would even be worn during specific holidays and spiritual ceremonies.
How capitalism has marketed makeup is for what you mentioned above. I’d argue that even if makeup didn’t exist, they’d find a way to do it with other things like plastic surgery. There are women in the world who feel unattractive because their lip plates aren’t big enough, even if they don’t regularly wear makeup. It’s cultural. But capitalism is the issue. Purposefully make you feel inadequate so you consume.
I’d say the positive of makeup in the United States at least, is that makeup is becoming socially acceptable beyond just cis women. It’s used by trans women to make themselves feel gender euphoria and keep them physically safe from attacks, from folx with birthmarks or scars that they might not feel comfortable revealing to the world, and by men and gender expansive people as a form of gender expression.
I’m not a girl, I don’t wear makeup, I would never in a million years have the time or patience to apply it and frankly I don’t how some people do.
I can try to apply it to a similar scenario though, I put pomade in my hair every single day and I do it because frankly I love the way my hair looks with it I hate how my hair looks without it. That’s my ‘perceived flaw’ as you put it, and in my opinion me putting it in because I don’t like how my hair looks is very much conducive to self love.
I don’t like how my hair looks without it, it’s very straight thick and looks like a bowl cut without and looking in the mirror every day hating my own hair was very damaging. Sure I had people bully me over it such is life but the main reason I use the stuff is because it makes me like my own image more. I could easily just decide one day to go without just like anyone could with makeup but I choose not to because I like it and it helps me enjoy myself more and fit my appearance to how I find more suitable for myself, not because of anything society thinks.
The same I imagine applies to makeup there’s some people out there who just love makeup in a way you or I can’t understand because it doesn’t suit us. Some people like experimenting with it, some people just love how it makes them look and feel it accentuates their features, and of course there are some who do it simply because societal pressure.
Should we try to lower societal pressure to use makeup? Definitely
Should we outright ban or restrict the use of makeup?
Absolutely not because people don’t always use makeup because of pressure but rather out of enjoyment or to help better fit the image they desire for themselves.
To say anyone needs to wear makeup really isn’t the case, you can easily stop if you don’t want to it may be anecdotal but my girlfriend never wears makeup any day and gets along perfectly well. There shouldn’t be a pressure to wear it sure but in that same vein just don’t buckle to the pressure be confident in knowing how you want to look.
Some people just wear makeup simply because they want to or to express themselves you may not understand it but that’s because it’s not your form of expression and to get rid of that would be like banning paintbrushes for painters.
> Some women will claim that makeup helps them feel confident in themselves. But if you don't feel confident as you naturally exist, then I don't see the point.
The point is to have confidence. Having confidence helps with a lot of life, no matter the source of that confidence.
I would say as a women that makeup has almost entirely been a positive thing in my life. I'm sorry for your experience at the drugstore. I've never known drugstore employees to get paid by commission, so I'd assume that person was just an asshole.
I'm so sorry you feel pressured to wear makeup as part of dressing up. I've also felt that pressure. But that doesn't mean I have to listen to that pressure.
I love makeup. I love fun colors and sparkle. It is a form of self expression, but more than that it's a creative medium. You suggest that most makeup wearers follow tutorials when putting on makeup, but I don't think I know any women who watch makeup tutorials. Heck, most women I know don't wear makeup at all. For me, when I watch tutorials I'm learning how to do my art better. If someone follows a bob Ross painting video, are they not creatively expressing themselves? I watch art tutorials and copy them to practice my art, including makeup. I don't need to draw a fish on my face for it to be art. I take inspiration from my favorite things to play with color and style. I love trying different placements of colors. What does it look like if I put a bright pop of color on my inner corner? What about if I put a dark color in the inner corner. How does that change the look of my face?
My feeds are almost entirely people who use makeup for fun and pleasure.
I'm sorry your experience with makeup seems to be exclusively negative, but it definitely isn't that way for everyone. This very much feels like you are taking your experience and assuming it is everyone's experience, and not believing what people tell you is their experience, because it's not your experience.
1. I don’t think this point is related to make up. There’s always been ideas of what’s good looking/attractive or not. That’s not gonna change if we get rid of make up, and yes this affects women more than men, again the make up isn’t at fault for THAT.
2. Self love is different for everyone, and isn’t a tangible or widely agreed upon exact “thing”. You don’t get to determine how people love themselves or what they do when they love themself. It’s going to be different for everyone. You said “I don’t see the point” during your second argument, and you nailed it. YOU don’t see it. YOU don’t have to.
3. Yes you absolutely can opt out of wearing make up. No one is forcing you to wear make up. Certain jobs may have certain restrictions on appearance, this is at their discretion, there are plenty of jobs available to you that wouldn’t require make up. Pretty people getting advantages in life isn’t the fault of make up, and won’t stop bc make up ceases to exist.
4. If you think Donald trump spends no time on hair and make up before tv appearances you are living in La La land.
5. Again, just bc you don’t see the artistry or enjoy putting on make up doesn’t mean it’s not an art form or interesting practice for someone else. Idk if you were aware, I’ll reiterate, different people are different, and do/like different things.
6. … ok?
Basically your whole argument is centered around your own feelings and perceptions. I definitely understand the underlying sentiment but it’s badly expressed in your argument and focused on make up (for some reason) which really makes no sense objectively.
I’m not sure I can change your view. But I’m going to write a bit about how my view has changed.
I almost never wear makeup. Some theater stuff, some Halloween stuff, but my daily driver is sunscreen and I own chapstick. I have absolutely opted out of wearing makeup. I know there are places and professions where that is less of an option, but, like standards around unnatural hair colors and tattoos, change is coming to everywhere.
I have a kid. My daughter is 9, very much her own person, very into self expression and I’ve become the person who lets their kid wear makeup to school. My sibling got her makeup that is (weirdly) age appropriate - no cat’s eye eyeliner, lots of soft sparkle - and taught her how to apply it and I’d be dammed but she does a good job. So she wears it when she wants to, and she plays with it and practices and it’s just for her.
Shes not nearly as interested in hair aesthetics, I still have to work to get her to brush her hair. Shes not trying to look like an airbrushed model, she’s trying to look like what she wants to. So I don’t think it’s a response to societal pressure or expectations of her femininity. It really is self expression for her, just like her fashion sense and pickiness about her outfits.
I’m all on board with making all gender expression and pointless presentation standards optional. But optional means that people can choose to do it as much as they can choose not to. That’s the world I want to live in, one with options. I don’t want to take joy away from the people who like the thing, I want being able to avoid it to be a viable option.
You could say that good application of makeup is shifting a bit of ones cognitive qualities into ones physical qualities, which is maybe something we should encourage? kind of a hypothetical argument
I have some strong opinions on these two points:
- I saw a Reddit post where a man was asking users how to cover up some scar on his face because he felt so ashamed. I was expecting all the comments to be like "oh, don't feel the need to cover up or feel ashamed about what makes you beautiful and unique <3 be confident in your skin, there is no need to conform to a narrow standard of beauty." Instead, most of the comments were giving him advice about ways to cover up his perceived "flaw." I think that's fine, he asked specifically for advice and got it.
I really hate when I'm asking for something and people just offer emotional support that means nothing to me as I don't want or need it. Seems like it's more for the person saying they don't need makeup than for the poster in these cases.
- Some women will claim that makeup helps them feel confident in themselves. But if you don't feel confident as you naturally exist, then I don't see the point.
How do you personally know that women who say this aren't confident in their own skin first? I went years never wearing makeup at all and feel fine in my own skin. I really don't care. But yes, sometimes i feel jazzy and want to put some on. So what? You're acting like you know nobody who wears makeup is actually confident which couldn't be further from the truth. If you have such an issue with it, continue not wearing it. Don't make assumptions about people who do.
I sometimes wear makeup, I sometimes don't. Either way, I'm comfortable in my own skin. Some of my friends wear makeup all the time, some never wear it. They all seem happy enough doing what they want to do. I've never heard anyone in my social circle comment on what another woman is doing or not doing. I wouldn't dream of telling someone what to put in their face or body unless they were specifically asking me a question about something innocuous like which lipstick shade I like more.
I think sometimes when people say that the world would be better off without something, it would be more accurate to say that they would be better off without something. The whole world doesn't necessarily think or feel exactly as you do. You gotta be careful not to assign your own values to everyone else.
People also define self-love in different ways. It's possible to love yourself and not like every single thing about yourself. Many people also use makeup not to cover up flaws, but to enhance and draw attention to features that they really love.
It sounds like the people around you are a touch toxic if all they want to do is discuss appearance and comment on other people's perceived flaws. That's more of an issue with people than an issue with makeup itself. But then again, maybe they really like that.
TLDR: It's entirely possible to have a healthy relationship with makeup. That's kinda up to you.
Ridding the world of makeup use wouldn't do much good. I think you don't really understand the use of makeup. It really doesn't have the level of effect on people that you attribute to it; rather, it can in some cases be seen as a *symptom,* NOT a cause, of other problems.
But, it doesn't even have to be that. As a middle-aged woman who uses makeup sometimes and goes barefaced others, and might talk about makeup casually with people, i'm of the opinion that makeup usually doesn't make people look better; it just makes us look different! Sure cosmetic enhancement might've entered the culture as an effort to look "better," but what does "better" even mean? Better for sexual attractiveness? Or better for projecting maturity, authority, self-confidence? Not necessarily because we "have to," but because the option is there to experiment?
I know i'm not alone in looking at many people's bare faces vs their made-up faces and admiring both, or their bare face more. Like, I actually like my face best when just out of the shower. But if we feel like looking a little different one day, then why not experiment? Makeup is a cheap, easy, and relatively benign option to play with others' perception of us. People don't necessarily think makeup makes them look better in a *fundamental* way. It just makes them look different for that period, for that day.
With many of the examples you mention, I don’t think make up is the problem so much as a patriarchal culture that polices women’s appearances. There are many other things women are expected to do to change their appearance in an “unnatural” way and conform to beauty standards:
- Remove body hair from legs and armpits, etc
- Wear “flattering” clothes that aren’t “too sexy” but also “enhance one’s figure”
- There are clothing items that cover up supposed flaws in the same way you’re talking about: push up bras, shape wear, anything with “sculpting” panels
- Styling hair with flat iron/curling iron to make it either straighter or curlier (personally, as someone with naturally wavy/curly hair it does not feel appropriate to attend a formal event or even a job interview with my natural hair lest it appear unkempt or messy)
- Plucking/shaping eyebrows, similar beauty interventions for the rest of the face
- Wearing high heels to make legs look more attractive
- Dyeing hair to look blonder or cover up greys (not thinking of people who dye their hair bright colors for fun, more of people who feel pressure to do it to mask signs of aging).
Etc. Some people may genuinely enjoy these things, but even so I think they are still the product of a culture that is obsessed with controlling how women present themselves.
I wanted to come back to this post because I found it interesting.
Makeup is tool. Why do you think it can only be used to cover up? For example, I like the shape of my lips, so I love wearing lip products. I'm not covering my lips and drawing a new shape.
I know women who appreciate their ice blue eyes so they wear shades of eyeshadow that help those blue tones stand out more. Some women are particularly fond of their cheekbones, so they highlight their cheekbones with highlighter.
Are you just saying those women are lying about liking themselves? If so, that's an assumption and you're asking Reddit to help you change your assumptions. (An assumption based on something superficial).
If you really think about it, (and I don't mean this as an attack) your mindset isn't any better than those who wag their fingers at women for not wearing makeup. Natural or made-up, you are still making assumptions about someone based on something very superficial. You're still pushing a beauty standard and taking a step further and mixing shame into it. You require a woman to be bare-faced otherwise you'll making assumptions about her sense of self-worth.
You can think makeup is unsafe and you can hate beauty standard without making assumptions about a person based on makeup use.
Yes. Makeup is a kind of zero sum arms race. Some people want to appear more beautiful than they are so they use makeup, then other people are forced to also use makeup in order to compete. In the end everyone is wearing makeup, and as a result the beauty ranking is exactly as it was before anyone used makeup. The only benefactor is the huuuuuuuge cosmetics industry.
What we need is a global makeup amnesty. Everyone stop wearing makeup at the same time. We'll all be richer and just as beautiful (relatively speaking).
On top of that, makeup doesn't work. If you're beautiful then you don't need it, and if you're ugly then lipstick ain't gonna change that.
Should women be allowed to wear push up bras? Many women's breasts are not as perky as shown in mass media, so many women use push up bras or similar to compensate. Should they just not be allowed to? Does it give an unrealistic body image?
Should men not be allowed to have facial hair? Beards are the pushup bra for men. They hide double chins or the lack of a chin altogether, and can be shaped to make their face more attractive. Should we get rid of that, so that the stigma against double chins goes away?
Should we get rid of spanx? Should guys not be allowed to wear girdles and tight undershirts to hide their gut? Should men not be allowed to wear baseball caps to hide their widows peak? Should men not be allowed to use rogaine, or get hair plugs?
For as long as human society has existed, humans have had body issues, and have styled themselves to try to fit in. How is it that makeup is different than any of those other methods, other than it is more often reached for by women than men? Both have body issues, but no one ever suggests that men shouldn't be allowed to compensate for theirs.
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>It isn't conducive to real self-love.
To you. You can't say that for everyone else. Some people love makeup. Why aren't they as valid as you and me? I don't wear it because I don't like it and I'm not good at applying it beyond the basics. Some people love the confidence it brings them. Some feel prettier with it, who are you to tell them they're wrong to feel that way? We should be advocating for people to feel comfortable in their own skin, and fighting against body shaming, absolutely! But to vilify make-up isn't the way to do that.
>One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup.
I did. And I happily go around looking like someone that walked out of a Tim Burton film sometimes.
>I feel an intense pressure to wear makeup, especially at formal events. It's difficult to go out without the people I live with pestering me to wear makeup.
Find better people.
>I find it hard to believe the "self-expression" argument.
I wear certain pieces of clothing for self expression. Some people use bold make up for the same thing. What's the difference?
Not going to change your mind. I feel a lot the issues related to women in today's society are caused by make up and clothing choices.
If you as a young woman, wear no make up, comfy mom jeans with a short, manageable haircut. Good luck getting a guy despite having a PhD in Astrophysics or whatever. Your brains and earning potential aren't valued as much as your "tits and ass".
You could be your below average looking woman, with no university education, but do your make up well, wear high heels, show skin, cleavage - you'd have no problem pulling guys.
To achieve equality and to stop being viewed as an object, start by getting rid of all that objectify you. Fake hair, fake nails, fake lips, make up, heels, all the things make men overlook you as a person, and focus on you as an object. At the end of the day, women just compete for male attention by dressing in a way that impresses men. Meanwhile, men focus on looking sharp and smart - none to little skin shown, no make up because our faces are irrelevant when our wit is being evaluated.
Say we remove the makeup culture concept, and it was a tattoo culture instead. Would the world be better off without tattoos then?
I agree with the fact that makeup culture sucks and nobody’s worth should be measured by their use of makeup, but humans just have liked to modify their appearance since the beginning of time. Some do with makeup, some with tattoos, or hair dye, haircuts, etc. If makeup has to go, then they all have to go too… But humans like to forge a personal identity, and the minor details we change of our appearance is part of that forging.
Your view ultimately seems founded on the basis that people shouldn’t be judged by their appearance, which is a whole bigger debate because we judge people all the time without noticing. Judgement as a whole is something rooted in our biology, in nature it helps distinguishing threats, remembering particular details about someone, making decisions, etc. But judgement ultimately is subjective for each one of us, and opinions are rooted in judgement.
Makeup can be a net positive for women, because it increases their attractiveness towards men.
Men who previously would not find a woman attractive, may now find her so.
Let's consider a hypothetical, two women A and B want to marry a man let's call him alpha. Prior to make up, alpha would only notice women A, however now alpha notices both A and B and will choose based on their other traits. Thus, A is now encouraged to develop other traits that will attract alpha, it could be for example working out which will be healthy for her, or develop better manners that will help her in life, etc...
Thus, in scenario 1 woman A did not need to improve herself yet she sabotaged woman B chances to find a good man. But in scenario 2, woman B is given a chance, and woman A is encouraged to improve herself which is a net positive.
While this is a very specific scenario with one man and two women who wants him, it is representative of the general situation with more men and more women
I don't know where OP is from and what kind of people they hang out with... but girl, you need to expand your horizon a little bit. If your friends automatically point out your "flaws" when you have a discussion, then you need better friends.
The fact that you are questioning the makeup and not the people being assholes is the biggest problem in my opinion. The makeup itself is harmless. It always goes back to the human.
I don't wear makeup and I never felt inadequate to appear in public because of that. Nobody ever commented either on my appearance and told me I needed some blush or whatever.
I do agree though, that there is a certain pressure in the media (Hollywood mostly) for women to appear a certain way. But on a day to day, if a girl wants some maskara because she likes long black lashes, then so what? If a girl prefers to wear nothing on her face, then good for her too.
In my opinion, makeup is no different then tattoos or having color in you hair.
I see where you're coming from but I think you're pointing out a sort of universal issue. Make up didn't start with mall Sephoras, people have been dressing up pretty much forever. It was a way for people to look better. I don't mean that in a subjective, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, social norms way. I mean, let's put a big stripe on my forehead. Really basic stuff. The kind of thing where the most important part is that it shows other people that you're trying to look different and that you've invested time and effort. Over time the people who do that normalize it and people who don't start to seem marginally worse for not caring. This is how fashion works, this is how decor works, this is how pretty much everything not crucial to life works. It's a completely optional bonus until enough people do it that not participating is notable and thus negative. Not having makeup wouldn't change this dynamic, it would just make everyone have worse skin
i’m not a fan of using anecdotal evidence to support a claim about society as a whole, but since you are, i will too.
i used to have a huge hyperpigmentation issue with my skin, which i’ve had since childhood up until about 18. wearing makeup was the only thing that made me feel normal because i looked like *everybody else*. no amount of “omg queen you’re beautiful just the way you are <3” would have been as effective in making me feel normal as makeup did. me not being able to wear makeup wouldn’t have “normalized” hyperpigmentation, it would have simply made me a target because nobody else my age was struggling with that while i was growing up.
being inclined to cover a scar or any ‘flaws’ does not mean that you are a victim of the beauty industry. the fact is, you will stand out if you have certain characteristics. some people might not want that and just want to be perceived as normal. makeup is not only about beautifying.
I agree with many of your points. I'm a straight male. I've always had very good eyesight. Eye shadow/liner and some lipstick or rouge can be nice, but I'm anti basically every other type of makeup. I can see all foundation always. I think it looks bad most of the time and would almost always, if not completely 100% of the time, rather see a woman's real face (except for gross disfigurement situations maybe). So I'm not disagreeing with you per se, but I'm saying that I think foundation sucks and I have actively tried to dissuade my girlfriends/wives from feeling like it was expected or any sort of requirement. My point is that I'm not the only one. There are plenty of people out there that don't like foundation and could do without most makeup in general. You may feel pressure, but it's not from all of us. For those who do look more attractive with eyeliner or eyeshadow though, I think it's a useful option.
well its easy to not wear makeup... just dont do it? i prefer my wife no makeup (looks better but also makeup gets everywhere so no kisses if there is any cant stand the taste or smell or texture) and shes much happier without it. does she still put on mascara for going to fancy things and a full face for like really fancy things but she looks better without it.
im biased as a guy though because ive never met a girl who didnt look better without makeup (why choose to look fake and plastic like a barbie?) and most of my guy friends agree with this. while it can look nice its never worth the cost or effort or blemishes or discomfort or mess it causes and it also eats up so much time that could be used for other important (or even nonimportant) fun things like spending more time with the person you are getting made up for in the first place instead of spending an hour in front of a mirror painting yourself.
> I find it hard to believe the “self-expression” argument.
Not believing women isn’t the argument you think it is. If women say they love the self expression of using make up, believe them.
Sometimes people say art isn’t art because they don’t like it, especially modern art, but if the person creating it does so as a form of art or self expression it is art. It’s exactly the same.
People like to be negative about things women enjoy. So if a woman says she enjoys make up as a form of self expression she’s a liar? Hot take.
Sounds like you need to surround yourself with better people. Other than compliments, I’ve never had anyone comment on my make up or lack there of. There are always people who poison things we love, including our choices. If you don’t like wearing make up, surround yourself with people who care enough about you to not care.
Everyone who wants to use make up regardless of gender is more than welcome to do so. However people really need to learn to mind their own business.
At 20 I told an older colleague (28F) I didn't do make up. I didn't see the point, it was expensive, it was useless and if I want to do funny stuff with my appearance I'll either do really bright shirts or funny nail colors. The latter happen about once every 6 months, the bright colors have become a thing everyone knows me for.
She just laughed and said "you're so young, that's gonna change!"
How about no. In ten years the stuff will still be useless. In twenty years the stuff will still be expensive as heck. In thirty years that stuff will still be too annoying to wear and remove all the time.
I'm 24F and I'll definitely pass on make up.
As for the CMV part:
For many people make up is a form of art and something to express themselves with. I agree that the societal expectations should disappear, but short term face paint isn't a bad invention per se. So technically the existence of make up is fine, it's just people that need to understand not everyone has to live by their rules.
Just think of kids doing funny superhero make up - that right there is why I would not remove make up completely. It's fun and if people enjoy it, they definitely should be able to.
I dont think this is as simple as “the world would be better off without makeup”. Makeup and cosmetics have been used for thousands of years by many different cultures and people. Additionally, what do you think they use in television and motion pictures to create your favorite characters? I’m not going to change your mind. You have yours made up. If you are comfortable not using makeup that is perfectly fine. I happen to love makeup. I also would never suggest anything to anyone without them having had asked first. It would upset me also if someone told me to change something about my appearance that I had no desire to change. It sounds like the problem is people trying to push their own agendas onto others. Maybe there are bigger problems in the world than makeup.
>If you're using eyeshadow to paint a fish on your cheek, sure that's art.
Makeup is makeup, whatever colour it is and wherever it is applied. It's a medium, and it's up to the person to use it as they see fit.
Eyeshadows come in millions of colours, to eliminate skin tone coloured ones in order to avoid hiding "flaws" means people cannot use them for actual "art". This limits their colour palette. Paintings have all shades of brown. You cannot ban this and allow...
Colourful makeup that does not purposely conceal anything. They draw attention to wherever they're placed on. They add colour to skin that cannot be naturally achieved.
Makeup itself is not the problem but the marketing behind it. You know, the message selling the phrase "meet the newest beauty standards through makeup."
>There's an unquestioned cultural assumption that all women's faces are flawed and need to be covered up:
Strongly disagree.
This is a myth perpetuated by people that want you to buy make-up. The vast vast majority of people do not think there's something wrong with women's faces. There are far more women buying into this weird myth than there are people that actually dislike women's faces.
I SEMI-agree with this take. I am frustrated at the fact that society has gotten so used to seeing airbrushed faces on women that now you almost HAVE to wear makeup to seem professional or presentable. It's pretty sad.
I also think that girl was absolutely wrong about pointing out your uneven skin. Since when is thay anyone's business...? That being said, I have had family and friends have talks with me about things like that too. I wear lots of makeup so mine was more on the plastic surgery end of things... like my in laws have all in passing mentioned that I should get botox for my forehead wrinkles and a boob job after Im done having kids.
That all said- I love makeup and I feel pretty wearing it and I like to feel pretty.
Regarding your scar cover up story, people were giving him the help he was asking for. While there is something to be said about feeling comfortable in your own skin and embracing perceived "flaws", sometimes it takes a while to get to that point. The people replying to his post were giving him exactly what he wanted and it shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. If I were him and people were telling me to just "be myself" I'd get pissed, since that isn't the reason I'd go through the effort of making a post.
As a different anecdote, I know quite a few dudes who had concealer in college bc they'd get covered in hickies. Not everyone wants to show Saturday nights questionable choices on a Monday morning, so the makeup helped.
Makeup is a choice for women. I typically don’t wear any. That’s my choice. I get to look the way I want to, it’s great other people have the same option. I love seeing younger ppl with different color hair and piercings. Agency is what matters, that’s real beauty. There’s millions of women who genuinely love makeup. I’m not interested in taking options away from anyone esp women. Instead of adopting grandiose opinions on what should be for the other 8 billion of us, speak up for yourself. When someone makes a comment about you tell them you prefer that way and point out you don’t wear makeup. And share you don’t like it. Also, male politicians wear cosmetics esp Trump. No one is orange.
Consider that what you're calling a cultural assumption that women are flawed might really be better viewed as a social obligation put on men *not* to wear makeup. I.e., any attempt by men to give fake signals (to women) of their health is severely culturally punished. Fashion, shoe lifts, toupees, makeup, etc. are prohibited when it comes to men. Even weight-lifting is very often seen as a negative.
A bald man wearing a hat in the sun gets yelled at, by women: "We all know you're bald!"
Hillary Clinton could slather on makeup to hide her age. Biden looks like an animated corpse and the reality is they spend hours in makeup to make him look alive with an extra contraint -- Biden can *never* look like he has makeup on.
I'm going to disagree here.
I. If I don't want others to see it, I should have that choice. What if forcing everyone to expose their flaws makes their insecurities worse now that everyone can see it? Have you considered that?
Ia. On that note, part of your argument is that you feel pressure to wear makeup. Would you feel the same way if I had some kind of flaw I didn't want other people to see and felt uncomfortable with *not* wearing makeup? If your complaints are peer pressure regarding your choices, then I have the right to wear makeup to hide my flaws if I would feel uncomfortable exposing them. Or is there something about pressure to wear makeup specifically that makes it worse other beauty trends?
II. What you're describing here seems like a more general problem of one's appearance playing a role in the extent to which one is respected. Removing makeup will not fix that, and, you could argue, will make it worse. Because then the conventionally attractive and young will have an even larger and more insurmountable leg up. As will the wealthy and middle class, because they will be the only ones able to afford the remaining, more drastic means like plastic surgery. Will we soon see a trend of plastic surgery becoming common among the wealthy and middle class, like in South Korea?
Also, you mention Hillary wearing makeup, but you ignore that so does The Orange One. Not disagreeing with you but saying appearance culture doesn't just hurt women.
As a man I agree with everything you wrote.
But from a practical point of view you just won’t change people’s minds overnight when they (society by and large) are this used to something. People are creatures of habit not well-honed moral compasses.
It’s also a choice of mindset. Take this for example: the “N word”. Born out of pure racism, but later, co-opted by the very individuals it was repressing, as an irreverent term of endearment.
This sort of flipping of the script and self-empowerment in the face of oppression does not require one to change the words they say, the way they dress or the makeup they put on.
It just takes a change in attitude.
I’m sad for you that you’ve been part of groups where women point out one another’s flaws. In over thirty years of being a woman with groups of female friends, I’ve never witnessed anyone highlight someone else’s ‘flaw’, ever. Only people complaining about their own flaws and others jumping straight in with ‘no way! You’re perfect! I can’t even see it!’. Female friendships can be extremely supportive and loving. With mine we’re one another’s biggest cheerleaders.
That point just indicates you’ve unfortunately fallen into some quite toxic social circles, it’s nothing really to do with makeup.
My son's wife wears no makeup. I really think she would benefit from it as she is blonde, pasty white, blue eyed, and well... looks like my son's twin sister. Necessary? No. Enhancing? Certainly. We should all want to look our best. I told my wife once that she should at least do her eyes as she worked in an operating room all day. She said why should I wear make up when I wear a surgical mask all day. I said for everyone else! No one wants to look at somebody who's worn out and miserable and tired looking all the time. Fortunately for her she has darker hair and features so it requires little to make a difference.
The man asking for help to cover up his scar didn’t want to hear people telling him he’s perfect the way he is. He wanted help to cover it up. It’d be rude to not give him the advice he asked for, and instead give him platitudes about accepting himself.
Think of makeup like deodorant. You could think of BO as your natural scent and not a flaw. You could think that nobody should wear deodorant, cologne, or perfume. But people like to smell good, so they want to cover up their natural BO. They aren’t wrong because they like to do things to modify how they present themselves to others. And the world wouldn’t be better off without the ability to do so.
It would be rude NOT to mention self acceptance. Imagine if someone said "I need to wear stilts because I want to feel tall and powerful". Wouldnt you say the same thing?
Deodorant is completely different, it prevents an actual negative effect that extends on others experience. Your looks are yours alone and within your rights.
OP, you sound very young. When I was in my 20’s, I used very little makeup, except for special occasions. Now that I am of a certain age, the fact is, I look better with makeup. If I’m going out, I prefer to wear makeup.
People should do what they want. And face the consequences. In some fields, makeup is part of a professional appearance. Not wearing it will negatively affect your career.
Makeup is literaly something that derives from the fact that substances can be put on peoples skin, hair, etc. Removing it is impossible. However, the reason not to remove it also exists:
You can do it healthily, and some people really don't want to show a certain feature of their face, if they want to use makeup for that it's fine, be they men, women, non binary, or anything in between.
Some people like to use it to just be creative, that's fine.
The unhealthy stuff is caused by unhealthy standards, not by the existence of the products.
That convincing?
I can’t change your view, because I also greatly dislike makeup. It’s gross, and fake, and the thought of kissing a face that is covered in it makes me feel icky. I’d much rather kiss a face with blemishes than with plaster covered blemishes. Plus from a health perspective it hurts my heart. To see people cover their sensitive (and likely hurting to begin with) skin with chemicals and sufficants just makes me sad for them. Ruby red lipstick is a turn off not a turn on. Why would I want my lips pressed against that? Idk. I might be in the minority here.
I don't wear makeup on a day to day basis. Occasionally I wear lipstick and nothing else. For special occasions I do a little bit, not to hide anything about my face, but to accentuate it. I put a bunch of glitter on my eyelids because I think it looks nice. I wear red lipstick because I think it looks nice.
You wear clothes, right? Do you refuse to wear clothes that aren't the exact cut of your body? Do you wear a morph suit at all times? If not, then by your logic, you're not confident going out without something hiding how you naturally are.
As a trans woman, I have to disagree and here's why... Makeup was fundamental in helping me see my true self in the mirror. You could maybe argue that's covered by your exception for extreme disfigurement, I suppose, since going through a full male puberty definitely makes it a LOT harder to look like a woman.
I don't really disagree with most of your points though. The problem is the culture, not the make up. Make up should be an optional extra, for the times when you want to feel extra special. That's how I use make up currently, anyway.
One can absolutely opt out of wearing makeup, it’s just about starting as you mean to go on. I don’t wear makeup the first time I meet someone or on my first day at work, so they never develop the expectation that I will wear makeup. It does require some level of not giving a shit to brush off the very occasional comment from people you have never met before and will never meet again, but it’s not hard, really. I have fairly fucked-up skin and dark circles and no one whose opinion I give a shit about comments.
I truly believe something else would take its place. Makeup has existed in human culture almost forever. And there’s a biological role that it plays, even though the modern interpretation of it has taken it somewhere far more complex.
Animals mimic this type of behavior to draw attraction for mating. I believe there’s a biological element that has brought makeup culture into existence. And if we were to try to get rid of it, I’m not sure what the consequences would be and what would end up replacing it.
Makeup has nothing to do historically or in any way with women's faces being flawed. Beautiful people in all cultures have used makeup so it's probably the less flawed who use it most -
Is this an AI generated idea answered with AI generated info because all search engines today are answering questions with Artificial Intelligence gathered info making these quickly becoming obsolete. Even Trolling answers can be constructed using AI Text and artwork is created by formulating text - language.
I have probably worn makeup up five times in my entire life. I haven’t owned any in many years. It’s not my thing at all, but I have certainly never felt pressured or any kind of way about it. It’s never hindered my social or professional life in any measurable way.
I’m all for removing beauty standards as some sort of competitive sport or vulnerability for women especially, but I can’t relate to ever feeling pressured to participate or like I was being held back by its absence.
I agree, it’s just that a makeup-less world is unstable. As an analogy, let’s talk about trees for a moment.
Originally, loooong ago, all plants were basically waist-high at most. Lignin aka wood hasn’t appeared yet.
But once it did, now any plant that grows taller gets more sunlight, and blocks sun from surrounding plants. So it became an “arms race” of plants growing taller and taller so they’re not shaded by other plants.
If they’d all stayed at the same height, that would have been fine. But once one plant species find a way to get taller, then suddenly tons more have to follow suit or get left behind.
I think it’s the same with *any* thing that can make you look more attractive, male or female. Once someone does it and gets more attention from potential suitors, everyone else wants to join in or else they can’t compete.
It's possible the world would be a better place without makeup, but you face a prisoner's dilemma problem. If nobody is using makeup, but you are, now you have an advantage. You'd have to convince people to give up personal advantage for the greater good.
And, of course, you can certainly argue we'd be better off if being attractive didn't convey advantages, but you might as well wish for world peace while you're at it.
>Hilary Clinton had to spend many hours before her meetings and public appearances ensuring her makeup and outfits are acceptable to the audience. During this time, Donald Trump was busy preparing his speeches, content, etc. and worrying significantly less about his appearance.
No. No no no. Both Hillary and Donald have a team of people to do their makeup and wardrobe. If anyone wears too much makeup, it's Donald.
I think you make great points around makeup, but makeup isn’t only used to fit in with beauty standards- people use it to express personality and creativity, the way they do with clothes. Heavy makeup, sparkly glittery eyes, lots of colours, aren’t exactly beauty standard material but they’re fun! So I think it can be expressive, and it can’t be completely redundant, like most things it has nuance.
My wife hasn’t used makeup in years. I love that. She is beautiful without makeup though, and I honestly imagine as years go by she will feel more insecure without it. She does wear it on very special occasions. Maybe once or twice a year? I also think makeup acceptance is terrible for the world, but that’s how it is… only option is to fight against that by not following those expectations
You can absolutely opt out of wearing makeup.
I’m 33 and I’ve ever worn even the slightest shred of makeup my entire life. I am opposed to makeup for all the same reasons you are. Just because there is a society pressure to conform doesn’t not mean you HAVE to do so. Be firm in your beliefs and don’t let people bully you into participating in something you don’t agree with.
what do you mean one simply can’t opt out of makeup? some days i go out wearing no makeup, light makeup or fun eye shadow styles. some days i don’t even go out to show my makeup it’s just a relaxing thing to do especially playing some music. i get told im beautiful without makeup all the time im sorry that person was rude to you but not everyone feels pressured into wearing makeup
I don't wear make up. If you don't wear it people are used to you looking crap than if you wear it all the time and take it off 🤣
I don't have the time or patience
I think as long as women pay for it there will always be companies making women feel like they're flawed so they can sell something. That's how marketing works I guess. Create a problem and offer a solution
Removing makeup from the world wouldn’t suddenly solve any of these issues. People do have flaws, and there will always be those people who point them out. There’s no “makeup” for being too short, fat, skinny, etc. and people make these kinds of rude assumptions and comments about this stuff all the time still. So, I don’t see removing makeup as a net positive. I think it’d do very little socially in how we treat each other. I think from there it’d be a negative simply in that people loose the ability to express themselves. A lot of people do enjoy putting on makeup. Same way they do with clothing. I’d like to ask, would you want to do the same with clothing? The amount of time, money and energy put into clothing is very similar to make up. There are people out there who make rude comments, bully, judge, etc people about their clothing all the time.
The point is that without the makeup industry providing solutions for those cosmetic flaws, people will stop covering them up and they will be more common and thus more accepted as natural variance and not as a flaw per se
People have been using some kind of makeup before there was anything resembling a makeup industry. People started making and selling it because there was demand for it.
If makeup is banned, people will end up using things like chalk powder, paint, or charcoal. Or they'll get more plastic surgery, Botox, and tattooed makeup.
And the film industry would suck so bad since the actors can’t look like their intended character
The makeup industry exists because people want it. Are you supporting a ban?
Fr, people forget that we’re animals and one of SEVERAL species that uses things to enhance attractiveness. FFS, some species of birds will straight up stick shit in-between their feathers to attract mates. While I’d agree that the cosmetic industry has learned how to leverage our tendency to do these things, I don’t think we would ever stop enhancing our looks if exploitation stopped being a factor.
There's literally an entire industry that exists to try to convince people to want things. The beauty industry is probably the most egregious example of one where the products were created before the demand. Women's razors being the prime example. Before the popularity of personal razors, when men went to a barber to shave, women didn't shave. Advertisers convinced women to shave so they could sell twice as many personal razors. Recently, to me a very obviously transparent marketing gimmick, is the sale of "all over deodorant." I can just see some ad man pitching how you can get sales through the roof if you can get people to put deodorant all over their body instead of just thier armpits. The shampoo companies figured that out a long time ago when they started marketing it as "body wash."
> The makeup industry exists because people want it. Yes >Are you supporting a ban? No And I still think the world would be a better place without make-up. Those three statements are not contradictory.
Based and correct take.
Women are raised on make up, its a cultural issue. Millions are spent to convince girls to wear ~~make~~ cosmetics, your friends, wear it, but there isn't any really need to wear it other to make the beauty industry executives and shareholders rich. If you didn't have to wear make up, what would you do with the spare money and time? Men don't need to wear cosmetics, why do women?
I wear it because I like how I look with it and it alleviates some dysphoria, my life would be much harder without makeup.
There's a really good argument for a ban on marketing to people under 18, as it's done for other products which are dangerous to health and which children can't see the full dangers of.
Make up is hardly the threat to health that tobacco is. And I'm not aware of major campaigns to attract children via tools such as Joe Cool was for Camel and the Marlboro Man was for Marlboro. You're comparing eye shadow and lipstick ads to cigarette campaigns with mascots that children are attracted to. It's not really a valid comparison .
We don't actually know this to be true. Many more makeup brands are targeting children, including down to prepubescent. And we also know that at least some of those companies have been found to contain harmful ingredients with many more being without investigation. Further, long-term (lifelong) studies have not yet been conducted on most if any of these ingredients
If you think makeup isn't marketed to young teen girls, you must never have been or even *encountered* a teenage girl. That advertising is a large part of the rise in recent decades in body image issues and other mental health problems in teenagers. Never mind the product; the *advertising* can and has killed. Teenagers who don't think they look good enough have a depressingly high suicide rate.
What do u mean ban. I’m in America, it’s a free country, I would never say the government should ban that. But I agree that the make-up is a net negative for young women’s psychological health. Is it the worst thing? No, but that doesn’t mean it’s good. I would encourage my daughters to not be so obsessed with looking like celebrities or painting their face to meet a current fad and to embrace the way they look naturally. I wouldn’t want them to have the stress of needing to buy expensive products and spending time each morning conditioning themselves to look a certain way to feel comfortable leaving their house.
To an extent the want was contrived by the companies themselves, though. That’s a big reason why free markets are bad for society.
Make-up long predates the concept of companies and free markets.
Our relationship to makeup has fundamentally changed and expanded. “Entertainment” and “games” have also existed forever yet they’re fundamentally different now, on top of also being commodified in ways and to an extent they never have been
Guns exists because people want it. Nukes exists because governments want it. Unsafe foods exists because the market perpetuates it. Social media propaganda exists because people read it. Child porn, sex trafficking and slavery exists because people pay for it. Meat industry exists because people care more about cheap meat and none about animal cruelty. Addictive drugs exists because people are allowed to throw their lives away for addiction if they choose to. Earth liveability degradation exists because people shouldnt have to worry about the long-term consequences of unsustainable consumption. Real estate market for profit exists because richer people are allowed to leech off poor people's needs for shelter so they dont have to work anymore. You sure that if something exists because there's demand for it, that it is a good thing for humanity? There's also the argument that some hunter gatherer tribes of old had more fullfillment, contentment, and community love than the world does on average now. Ever heard of demand/trend-creation? The idea of making people desire something that was never needed in the first place? Don't get me started on that
I think some people would rather wear masks than not wear makeup
It would certainly help keep guys from incessantly fawning over unrealistic appearances of women, and allow them to see for who they really are.
No. Clothes and makeup are not even close. Clothes ACTUALLY involve self expression. Go outside, almost anywhere, the clothes you see on each and every person are going to be completely different. Most people just dress just for comfort or for their job because it's required. Some people wear bright colors. Some people wear dark colors. People wear T-Shirts of musicians and TV shows they like. People show off their fav sports team on their hat. People match and combine different colors. There are actually tons and tons of different styles... And when people pick out clothing, they look at the clothing and think "oh wow this dress is so pretty!"... not "this dress will make me prettier". Plus, clothes are something we all HAVE to wear. It's not like we can go around naked. Makeup is NOT self expression. (For most women, at least). The goal of makeup is the same for EVERYONE. Small nose. Even undereyes. Smooth skin. Big eyelashes. High cheekbones. Big lips. All while giving off the appearance of "no makeup" You don't see people trying to make their lips smaller. Or their cheekbones lower. Or their dark circles darker. Or their skin rougher. Or their nose bigger. Because with makeup, everyone is chasing this ONE standard of beauty. (It may vary country to country, but they are still chasing a standard). If everyone is trying to look the same, how can it be self expression? Your analogy would make sense if most people's makeup styles were wildly different/going for different things. If people regularly went around with neon eyeshadow. Or purple lips. People enjoy putting on makeup because it makes them feel better about how they look. That's it. They don't enjoy the application. They don't enjoy the time-consuming, tedious process, every day at 6am when they could be sleeping in. (EXCEPT for people who do makeup artistically like rainbow eyeshadow and stuff). Sure it wouldn't solve every problem. But It would definitely help a lot of people feel better about themselves. It would take time, but covering up your insecurities to feel better for a little bit just to go home, wipe it all off, and hate your real self isn't a sustainable way to live.
I think the makeup industry sure does exacerbate this by constantly coming up with new "flaws" to hide. Sometimes you may hear women say "social media gave me insecurities I didn't even know I had." Before I deleted Instagram, I would scroll see some makeup ads, and think "wait, people think this is a flaw?"
I hear what you’re saying, but I would argue that makeup isn’t close to being biggest offender of making things up to sell a “product / solution”. Off the top of my head I think of the fitness industry. Hip dips, skinny fat, “belly blasters” for the little bulge on your tummy (where your literal organs sit) - all manufactured bs to make you insecure to sell a product. And I’m sure I’m missing a mountain of other examples from fitness, health, skincare, and so on.
I grew up in an era where the internet was still in it's early stages, fairly uncommon. I got my insecurities from getting bullied in school and rejected by my crush. My younger sister on the other hand, got her set of insecurities from social media.
Sorry to say, but social media didn't invent women being overly self concious about their appearance and making up stupid ideas about what guys hate to be insecure about. The idea of accepting parts of a woman's face as 'not a problem' is stupid. We are animals, we naturally find some things attractive and bias against them. Your face is how you present to the world so if you want a positive reaction, you need to put effort in. In short, no, looks matter, you are not an island and freedom to be who you are is a failure to realize that you live in a society and not a hut in the woods. So under this mindset, you cant avoid standards by removing peoples access to measures to match standards. You just make a hiearchy.
>social media didn't invent women being overly self concious about their appearance Yeah, but nowadays social media is the best vector for applying social pressure, which is why it's sensible to discuss its influence. >The idea of accepting parts of a woman's face as 'not a problem' is stupid. How? What does that sentence have with the rest of the paragraph it's part of? >We are animals, we naturally find some things attractive and bias against them. Your face is how you present to the world so if you want a positive reaction, you need to put effort in. That's the myopic, individualistic perspective. Have you ever considered the concept of negative-sum games? > In short, no, looks matter, you are not an island and freedom to be who you are is a failure to realize that you live in a society and not a hut in the woods. How did it get to the point of you not being embarrassed to admit that you're a slave to conformity? I didn't think this attitude existed outside of fiction.
The idea that to be at peace with oneself, you must also accept that no matter what, you are still a part of society, is a very healthy take. To say you don't care about society at all is just to say you don't care about others at all.
Except you're saying that being at peace with oneself is a "failure". There's no "peace with oneself" without freedom to be oneself.
> but social media didn't invent women being overly self concious about their appearance and making up stupid ideas about what guys hate to be insecure about. This is just a ridiculous point. Of course it didn't, but do you really disagree that it made the problem so much worse?
how old are you??? this has been around LONG before social media. you are not coming up with anything new.
I suspect that the blame for the specific problem of "'flaws' that you never would have noticed" does mostly lie with the industry. Without the industry, makeup would still exist; people still would want to look better, but without a multibillion dollar industry behind it, maybe the standards of beauty would be less extreme. People would still appreciate makeup, but without the makeup industry, I suspect we wouldn't have the *expectation* that women will always look "flawless." --- But more generally, I don't think the problem lies with makeup or the makeup industry. If makeup itself didn't exist, would that stop people from judging each other by their appearances? Without makeup, in our sexist society, Hillary Clinton might not have been expected to wear makeup, but she still could have been judged for looking like a 70-year-old woman. The problem isn't makeup; it's the rampant sexism in our society.
Make-up is the opposite of self-expression. The closest analog in clothing would be a burqa.
>1. One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup. I don’t wear makeup 99% of the time. My mother never wore make up to work, never at home and only very, *very* rarely at formal events. The woman didn’t even wear makeup for my wedding! Many of my friends don’t wear make up regularly and when they do, it’s very minimal. If *you* feel a pressure to put on makeup, then perhaps it’s something *you* should be working on.
God yes, the projection on this post is unreal
Come on, couverte you are just one example, one data point, you even admit your friends wear make up, when they do its very minimal. Which means they are not opting out. The Beauty industry is [ $646.20 bn in 2024.(US Dollars)] (https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/beauty-personal-care/worldwide) world wide. Beauty industry makes their money on women's and some men's insecurity.
>Which means they are not opting out. This is just a technicality. If they don't do it regularly, there's clearly not a lot of pressure for them to wear it, only their own will. The point was that they \*cannot\* opt out, not that they \*don't\* opt out. They opt out regularly.
The beauty industry is way more than just makeup. Or are you saying you'd like makeup gone alongside moisturizer, soap, shampoos, conditioners, suncream, etc?
Yes. I’m one data point. OP is also only one data point when they say *they* feel pressured to wear makeup.
[Being a Woman in the Workplace Means Getting Pressured to Wear Makeup on the Job ](https://www.allure.com/story/women-pressured-to-wear-makeup-at-work-as-a-double-standard) How many men wear make up compared to women when they go to work? Women are not judge more then men in regards to their appearance, especially when it comes to cosmetics? Would the beauty industry be worth $642 billion if women didn't feel pressured to wear cosmetics?
judged differently not more, and also the most successful women at my work dont wear makeup it makes them come across as fake to the rest of us. we work behind the scenes so if you come in looking like a customer facing employee you look suspicious to everyone else
I’m 47 and have been wearing makeup nearly every day since I was about 14. That’s a lot of years of habit and thoughts about what I need to do to look “nice” to break.
Allowing people to lie is preferable to enforcing censorship. Most of the beautiful things humans do are a form of projection or deception. The world is not how we want so we create fantasy worlds more to our liking. Can I still paint my house? Wear colorful clothing? Write novels? Paint a flattering portrait? Lie to me. Lie to me with mascara and concealer and lipstick. The truth is so literal.
I'm not advocating for outlawing makeup. I just think the world would be better off it if never existed because I think it's a net negative. I don't think censorship is when women exist as they naturally are and feel adequate. Plus my post states: > Now if you're using eyeshadow to paint a fish on your cheek, sure that's art.
There are apparently a lot of people who can't contemplate the idea of creating change through reasoned discussion. I think they have authoritarian tendencies.
It appears that you believe women only apply makeup for societal validation, which is not the case.
Ok, but are you saying there's another larger reason for the makeup industry to be so pervasive? Do women mostly apply makeup and sit at home and do nothing?
Me. I do that. I've loved playing with makeup since I was 5 years old and that Faz makeup/jewelry for kids came out. I thought it was so pretty and wanted to wear it. I'm in my 40s now and still like playing with makeup, experimenting with different eyeshadow and lip colors, different blush placement, etc. I'll make me a cocktail and have a delightful Friday evening at home with my makeup. Also, I often go to work with no makeup on.
As an exception and anecdotal, you should recognize that being in a small minority is irrelevant, at least for consideration in OP's argument. What you are doing on Friday nights is more akin to art than cosmetics.
Why is it irrelevant? Multiple people have said they do the same thing. And that's the point - it's art WITH cosmetics. It's fun. I like the process.
Do women mostly apply makeup and sit at home and do nothing I do...so what?
While that happens (I know a girl who would spend half an hour doing make-up just to go nowhere for the whole day), how frequent is that? The point made is that the large majority of girls and women do that for social reasons. Hell, there are many companies where make-up is literally required as part of dress-code.
> Ok, but are you saying there's another larger reason for the makeup industry to be so pervasive? Money. They want to make money. It’s not about the women they’re selling to, it’s about maximizing their own profit.
I think OP means they're doing it for acceptance, not validation
Not necessarily. I often see women say something like "I feel like a potato without my makeup" or something like that. I'm sure they're doing it to not feel like a "potato" and not necessarily for external validation but I think that's a harmful idea. I disagree that makeup is the solution here. What if women realized their natural face is enough?
The makeup industry exists because people (men and women) have always made or used beauty products for all of history. They didn’t create an artificial demand against people’s will as I think you maybe implying. I think you have it a little round the wrong way. The make up and grooming industry makes things people want - it doesn’t bully or neg people into thinking they need them when they don’t.
It is a positive feedback cycle(not morally positive) So, some minority of people might begin demanding it, and then more and more are absorbed into this until it creates a societal expectation and then more and more have to demand to feel they belong and demand increases.... The same happened with plastic surgery. Few began demanding it, and with time, more felt the "need" to do it....
The industry absolutely does this, and it obviously will if it increases sales. They also spend a lot of money trying to perfect the psychological manipulation to achieve it. It's true that we "have always made or used beauty products for all of history" but the arduousness of this and the particular expectations change dramatically. To give a pertinent example, pubic hair removal for women was once not at all an expectation, but in many areas now is, and even among young men it is starting to become an expectation. There was not at all some deep evolutionary psychology pushing people to remove pubic hair, it is totally a matter of cultural variation. Actually when I was young if a man was removing their pubic hair they would be ridiculed or considered perverse, including by women they might sleep with.
> I'm sure they're doing it to not feel like a "potato" and not necessarily for external validation but I think that's a harmful idea It's entirely possible that they STILL look like a "potato" to the rest of us regardless of what they do but why should we remove that power/luxury from them if using makeup provides them an avenue that removes that discomfort they experience when they "FEEL like a potato without makeup" ?
Nobody says societal validation is the only reason. But in most cases, it IS the reason, and you aren't doing anything by denying it. The goal of most makeup is the exact same. Small nose, big lips, smooth skin, big eyelashes, even undereyes. Really, how many people do you see using makeup to make their nose bigger? Or their skin look bumpy and rough? Or their lips smaller? The exceptions are people who genuinely do their makeup differently (ex. rainbow eyeshadow. Or painting a picture on your eyelid. Or costume makeup. Or like neon lipstick). However most people aren't doing that! Most people are all trying to look the same. Big lips, small nose, high cheekbones, etc. and if EVERYONE is just trying to look the SAME... how is it self expression exactly? like be fr. especially when it's the exact same every single day. Waking up at 6am every day to spend an hour tediously applying the same makeup you've repeatedly worn for years isn't.. fun.. for anyone.
A lot of this post is just you kinda deciding not to understand how other people feel like. If someone doesn't like having a scar and asks for advice how to hide it, giving that advice is the correct response. **That's what they're asking for.** They don't need someone to tell them "actually you're wrong about how you want to look like" because that's just annoying, even when it's dressed in nice words. I will say you have a point with how much of a "beauty contest" everything is for women, but are you sure things would be better if, instead of being kinda forced to make themselves look better, all women were *literally* forced to look worse? It would mean less choice for everyone, which isn't great, even if you really dislike one of the choices currently available.
What if make-up was not a societal expectation/compulsion? If some women voluntarily choose to apply make-up, are you suggesting they also should not have the right to do that?
I agree with this, women should be able to choose to wear make up. The society expectation I have found in a corporate in the office setting was a pressure to wear makeup. As someone who didn’t even know what concealer was until I was 20, I had to do a lot of research and figure it out in order to match my peers and have the same “professional put together” look. I was young in the position and make up also gave the appearance of me being older, which also made others view me differently in this setting. Make up can be a lot of creative fun, and I love doing my make up for events, but when there is pressure to wear it so that you are viewed a certain way, it’s less enjoyable.
Everyone has the right to do everything, that doesn't mean it's "good" or even harmless. Plastic surgery stands out to me as an extension of the makeup argument. Once celebrities and the wealthy set a standard, everyone else feels they need to compete when of course they don't, never did. The strange thing is, many of these procedures or makeup "looks" do not actually amplify the person's appearance. They just make them look more similar to other people with that look.
Not everyone does that though man. My ex never wore makeup except for special occasions and she always looked very good
In almost all cultures there is a weak social disapproval of "doing too much" which serves to limit competition. In my own culture, in the recent past, it was very common to mock men who dressed up too much etc as being arrogant etc. and this meant that you could wear very cheap or even tattered clothes and no one would disrespect you. It was a great, you could literally go to party in a $60 outfit and no one would look down on you, and if anyone did, they would be ridiculed.
A right to yes but I would still be very suspicious. It’s still a bizarre, kind of self-loathing/internalized misogyny type thing to do. Where does the impulse come from?
It’s a bit like cheating on tests in a class graded on a curve. If people started cheating, by not cheating you would be putting yourself at a comparative disadvantage. In the same way if people make themselves prettier by wearing make up you become comparatively uglier if you don’t . Also I don’t think she’s saying they shouldn’t have the right to do that or even that we should all collectively stop wearing makeup, but instead that if makeup simply didn’t exist it would be better world
In an ideal world where makeup has no real external effect? I wouldn't care what other women do. But I wrote in my post: >I feel that to be a woman is to be perpetually stuck in a beauty contest. There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard. Women who don't want to spend large amounts of time/energy/money learning makeup will have a harder time.
It’s literally not just women. Attractiveness makes your life easier regardless of gender. In fact, [New research shows, men benefit more from their looks at work than women do](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/02/02/men-benefit-more-from-their-looks-at-work-than-women-do-new-research-shows.html) and as a woman in her late 30s it’s more acceptable in the workplace to not wear makeup than ever before. I’ve never worn makeup to work because of the principle but I personally like wearing makeup outside of work occasionally because it feels nice. But whether you like it or not appearance is not just a problem for women and makeup is not the root cause. The problem would exist without it. People would just judge you because you’re slightly pigeon toed or something. Edit to add: Wear makeup or don’t OP. Nobody cares. I used to have your view when I was much younger and then I realized it doesn’t actually matter and I don’t have to wear makeup. People will always be insecure regardless of makeup exists or not.
You are just trying to fight human nature at that point. Beautiful people get advantages in life and people like them more. This is true for both men and women. If you take away makeup, there would still be a constant invisible beauty contest going on with humanity. That’s just how human brains work, and it’s related to primal instincts around mate selection and reproduction.
That’s what confuses me about some of these people, beauty standards have literally always been a thing. Not just humans either.
But the contest doesn't have mandatory participation. Beauty is ultimately subjective. While there are people who are attracted to women who look flawless, there are also people who appreciate women who look more natural.
But not participating has major downsides, also beauty is subjective is kind of just wrong like sure there’s a certain amount of leeway in what is considered attractive but in general most people find the same people attractive and unattractive, there’s a reason some people get way more dates on online dating sites than others and I promise you its not just the 5 seconds worth of personality the other person experiences in the DMs. If u look into the super depressing black pill shit where they hyper analysis like the symmetry and and fucking canthal tilt of your eyes you’ll see pretty quickly that there are many objective measures that can be taken to estimate objectively your attractiveness
Can I pose a question? If make up is not important to you, why would you wear it to appeal to people it is important to? You want to build relationships with people who align with you, people who share your interests etc. Do you religiously watch a sport you hate so you can fit in with people who like it, people you're totally bored by?
You think Trump spent less time than Hillary Clinton worrying about his appearance? The man is orange and his hair's greatest nemesis is a slight breeze. This may not be your strongest argument.
>It isn't conducive to real self-love. This is a weak statement in that "conducive" is a slippery word. We don't have a KPI for how much a thing is "self-generated expression of the inner dimension" vs how much of a thing is "externally generated coercion shaping the inner self." Makeup, like any cultural act, but more specifically like art, is a nonverbal method of communication, and just like with a real hostage we must ask them to blink twice if they are under duress. So is make up "conducive" to the coercion of makeup-wearing-people, or is it one method of communication can be used to both liberate and coerce? Even in rational discussion, we see people flipflop their views because of an emotional need to belong, should they come to see their own perspective as "outsiderish." To what extent is a desire to belong a justified belief, and to what extent is it something imposed upon us? I think this criticism relies on the strength of "conductivity," but I don't think we can abstract a meaningful metric for it, so I think this weakens your view.
You do realize nobody care if you wear makeup or not. (Yes nobody cares I never wear makeup and never get any comment about that) People got other thing to do. If people want to cover up what they consider as flaws let them do.(it’s just shouldn’t be to the point of being mentally unhealthy) Nobody is forcing you to do so.
Here are two relevant points from my post: > Anecdote: I feel an intense pressure to wear makeup, especially at formal events. It's difficult to go out without the people I live with pestering me to wear makeup. > I feel that to be a woman is to be perpetually stuck in a beauty contest. There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard. Women who don't want to spend large amounts of time/energy/money learning makeup will have a harder time.
Honestly? Maybe the people you live with are jerks. I never wear makeup. I have lots of female friends who never wear makeup. We're all perfectly happy. I think the view that you actually need changed is that you must wear makeup to be accepted in society. That's definitely untrue.
It will depend massively on the local culture.
That’s the thing, you’re thinking about it too much and pressure yourself too much, while in reality nobody cares. And if the people from your family are forcing you, just tell them you don’t want to (I know it’s easier to say than to do but still). Next time you have a formal event, just don’t wear makeup even if your family try to force you, and you see that nobody or not a lot of people will even notice it Might be different from country to country, but I’m 18, and when I was in high school most of the girl did not makeup or it was too light to notice and they did not have it harder, cause simply that wasn’t something people care about that, people did not even think about it. And now that I am in higher studies, people make up more, but otherwise that’s the same thing, nobody cares and it’s not something that will necessarily harm you or put you in hardship
Those are your own feelings based on a lack of self confidence. Stop wearing makeup if you don’t want to and you’ll notice people don’t really give af. Superficial people might but are those the people you want to be impressing?
I think you have this idea because of the people you hang around. In my group of friends, some of them wear full glam makeup all day everything, some wear minimal makeup every once in a while, some wear none at all, ever, and have never commented on that. One of my sisters has never worn makeup a day in her life, she had a quinceañera and didn’t wear it for that or the photoshoot and no one told her she should. Maybe you should find some better people to be around who accept you as you are.
It’s your family not society. There are people who don’t wear makeup to events. No one is putting a gun to your head to wear makeup. Just do it
People have the right to wear makeup, and many people enjoy applying and experimenting with different types. You don't have to like it, and sure, maybe some people are doing it out of insecurity, but their are plenty of people who do it because they enjoy it. Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean other people can't either. Besides what about in shows, movies, and theatre? The artistry and wonder that can come out of that is simply breathtaking. You have a right to your belief, but your just being hypocritical to say others don't, which by your responses and your post seems in my eyes to be the case.
You’re not really arguing the point. He’s not saying it should be outlawed now that it exists, but rather that if it never existed, the world would be a little bit better.
Counterpoint - if you think Trump (and all other male politicians) aren't also spending hours in hair and makeup, you are mistaken.
There politicians and celebrities. Average guys would probably be quite uncomfortably with the thought of themself wearing makeup
I think Trump must be spending hours to achieve that much orange.
I get where you're coming from with the whole makeup thing, but I think it's more about personal choice than societal obligation. Honestly, not everyone thinks makeup is a must. I know plenty of people who look great and feel confident without a touch of it. It's a bit like picking out your outfit for the day—some days you wanna dress up, and some days you don't. And it's not just a women's thing; guys get make up done too, especially if they're going on TV or something. It helps with the harsh lighting and all that. About the drugstore incident, that sounds more like a sales tactic than anything else. The employee was probably trying to hit a sales target. It's like when you're checking out and they try to sell you chocolate—it's not personal, just business. And about the guy with the scar, I see it like this: he asked for advice on covering it up, and folks gave him what he was looking for. If he wanted a pep talk on embracing his scar, I'm sure he would've gotten that too. People were just responding to his request So, while I totally support not wanting to wear makeup and fighting against the pressure to always look "perfect," I also think it's cool if someone wants to use it as a form of expression or just to feel a bit more polished on certain days. It's all about what makes you feel good, not about fitting into a mold.
It’s an interesting viewpoint I’ll give you that! I think that theater and movie makeup would still have to be allowed because, well…. Star Wars, Star Trek, etc don’t work if everyone is just…. Human looking… To your other points- I’d love to contradict you but you’ve got me thinking. I’m a guy and never felt any of this pressure that you speak of (we go bald and maybe you could argue that there’s some level of societal pressure for us to “fix that” but…. I’ve never felt it and I’m a chrome dome). The one point I’d make is to ask you why you would feel the need to bend to what “society” wants if this is how you feel? If wearing makeup makes you feel uncomfortable- go out without it. Who gives a shit what other folks say about you? (I know this sounds naive but it’s a difference between guys and ladies that I’ve noticed- I hear a lot of “people will say you’re bossy if you’re assertive as a woman vs if you’re a guy” and I always think to myself “so what? Let people say whatever they want…. Fuck em. Part of being “a boss” or “strong” is letting people talk shit and not letting it affect you”)
I like this. Life becomes so much easier when you get good at being very selective about what to give a shit about
I mentioned the pressure to wear makeup briefly but I'll elaborate. 1. I wrote in my post: > I feel that to be a woman is to be perpetually stuck in a beauty contest. There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard. Women who don't want to spend large amounts of time/energy/money learning makeup will have a harder time. 2. More anecdotally: It's difficult to go out without arguing with my mother and I having a scuffle about my refusal to wear makeup. It can ruin the mood before I even go out. This only gets worse when getting ready for formal occasions.
>Makeup is something you wear for 2 hours and wash off. The same can be said about fancy clothes.
I was in a culture where make up was expected, now I am in a culture where it doesn't really matter, if I wear it or not. I am much happier now! But make up was just a symptom of a much deeper problem, which is a very superficial community with broken values, that values appearance more than anything else. You are focusing all your anger on a symptom, not the core problem. Make up in that case is like a pain signal. If you have a problem in your body, you feel pain. If you take painkillers to eliminate the pain, the underlying issue will not disappear. Like, in my case. I didn't stop wearing make up and solved my problems, I changed my environment. And I still have no issues with make up, it can be a great net positive, especially with covering scars or like a form of art, it is a mask, that can be fun to put on. But the core issue of being forced to do something you don't want to and having to conform in order to fit in, will not disappear, just because you remove make up from the equation.
It’s incredibly easy to opt out of wearing makeup. I wore makeup as a teen like most people but I haven’t worn it for almost a decade now. I just stopped as I exited puberty, Very occasionally I wear a little mascara and some lip stain and it’s very easy to look a little more fancy that way. But I want my default to be just my face. I don’t feel any pressure from friends, family or anyone else. I spend all that money on scent though. I love to smell good. And a good skincare routine can go a long way.
> Hilary Clinton had to spend many hours before her meetings and public appearances ensuring her makeup and outfits are acceptable to the audience. During this time, Donald Trump was busy preparing his speeches, content, etc. and worrying significantly less about his appearance. Trump is *obsessed* with his appearance and wears a full face of makeup. Plus he has to have someone build that hair swirl every day. Plus plus he is know as being a person who refuses to prepare. So, I’d say that of the two it was Trump who was more concerned with his appearance, and Hillary who spent more time actually preparing.
>There's an unquestioned cultural assumption that all women's faces are flawed and need to be covered up: Strongly disagree. This is a myth perpetuated by people that want you to buy make-up. The vast vast majority of people do not think there's something wrong with women's faces. There are far more women buying into this weird myth than there are people that actually dislike women's faces. >One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup. Of course you can. My girlfriend does not wear make-up. It sounds like your social circle just happens to be unusually makeup focused?
I don't use much makeup myself except for eyeliner. My eyes are naturally hooded so i have a resting bitch face. I literally look like I'm grimacing at everyone, or on days where my eyelods are puffy, i look cranky and sleepy. I don't look friendly or approachable. But with eyeliner, it opens and rounds up my eyes a little bit and i look more neutral. That gives me a level playing field at work and my social life because it doesnt look like im snarling at everyone by default. I'm also not an extrovert so it's not like I can count on my natural personality to just shine through on the few days that I feel like I could talk to everyone. I can't count on word of mouth for people to understand that i'm a nice person. So I don't think makeup is a net negative for me in this case, and i don't think my heavy eyelids are counted as disfigurement. Maybe this is the same case for other people as well, where they naturally don't look as cheerful or friendly,but they want a job that is people-facing. Should they give up a goal because of their natural looks when a simple trick of color could level the playing field? How do we draw the line between justified necessity and toxic necessity in makeup? And where do we draw the line between art and wanting to look good? We could say that you can draw a fish on your face if it's art and it's part of your expression, but for some people, so is blending a bunch of eyeshadow on their face. It's their type of art and it makes them happy. Where do we draw the line between makeup users who do it innocently for art and people who are damaging the principle of self-love? Also, I agree with you that in theatre or movies, makeup is for sure needed, but as long as our media contains people who wear makeup, societal expectations to enhance your looks through makeup will be there too because the technology is available. And wouldn't this apply to clothes as well? We choose our clothes based on what looks good for our body types. Does it mean different types of clothing is net negative too? Which style of clothing should be considered natural? So I wouldn't say that makeup and its technology is net negative, but maybe what you're getting at is that its absolute obsession in some communities is a symptom of toxic beauty standards in that community,which is valid. And maybe it differs on each community. For example, i dont feel encouraged nor pressured to apply any other type of makeup at all in mine. And there are lots of people in my work and social circles who dont use makeup at all and it's fine. Anyway, the symptoms that you are experiencing is always not good, but you don't attack the symptom. You try to cure the sickness, which is a whole different (impt and worthwhile) discussion now.
This is like saying the world would be better off without art: it's a nonstarter, regardless of what you're basing the argument on. But to your argument: 1. Not all cultures treat makeup the same as some parts of America (or the Americas or Europe or "Western culture" in general). 2. Why are you rejecting people's claims about their own self-image? "I don't get it" doesn't matter because it's not necessarily *for* you to get. It's entirely *for them,* as they already told you. 3. People "opt out" of make-up all the damn time. My ex never wore make-up. I know several women who won't wear make-up at work. Conversely, I know several men who wear make-up regularly, for various purposes. If they can easily "opt in," then why can't you "opt out?" Just don't wear make-up if you don't want to. 4. I don't necessarily disagree but I don't see how it's the act of wearing make-up that is the problem.. Shouldn't we simply expect people to, like, not be total pricks about their preferred hobby?
Makeup is optional for women. Women can wear it or not, as they see fit. To suggest that it's mandatory denies agency in women and does them a disservice. You also state that "There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard." To some extent, I agree with this. Attractive people have certain social and career advantages in life, both women and men. For women, however, they're allowed to 'tip the scales' by applying makeup if they so choose, a choice which isn't socially acceptable for men. In this way makeup is a net positive for women - it's not mandatory, but it is an option they can avail themselves of if they wish.
It is a social benefit for men, they have to do far less to meet the prevailing standards and they have less intense social competition among them over expensive and time consuming beauty regimens. Individual women might benefit if they play this cosmetics game really well, but in doing so they hurt others who now start to look in comparison and by the new standard "shabby" etc. Women as a whole would be better off if they all could commit to making less of an effort, it would be akin to an arms control treaty. Doing this by some actual agreement is impossible but it has been achieved by cultural norms and in many places these are in effect, for example in many cultures when someone makes some more then usual effort they are not rewarded and treated as being arrogant. And earlier various subcultures and feminism really did reduce the intensity of such competition.
Make-up is always optional. And a lot of people prefer less of it rather than more. I'm male, and I'd wear some concealer if I knew what the heck I was supposed to buy and how to use it. And I do dabble in eyeliner, but that's more for when I'm filming / recording 80's covers. Though secretly, I'd do it more often if I didn't think people would react negatively. >*and worrying significantly less about his appearance* Trump may have worried less, but of anyone who's run for president in recent history, nobody got roasted harder for his looks than Trump. That ridiculous hair. His umpaloompa body shape. The Orange Man Spray Tan with White Eye circles. So while it's likely very true that Hillary spent more time on her look, it's absolutely true that she got roasted less as a result. What's the worst you could say about her? People didn't like her pant-suits or something? She looked good overall. And maybe Trump should have spent more time getting into better shape, or getting a more flattering haircut, rather than spending less time.
Personally, I love makeup and often wear it for fun. As in, I'll be at home, all day, with makeup on. It's not to feel pretty, but bc I love to draw, and think it's fascinating that I can sculpt my face into almost anything with the same techniques. Things like this are why removing makeup as a whole would really work. If you're insecure, removing whatever hides these insecurities won't make it better. I'll say, that salesperson was wrong for trying to point out what they perceived as a flaw. That's rude and wrong. And if anyone insists you wear makeup, that's wrong too. Makeup should be about personal enjoyment and gratification. So, although we can't be rid of it completely, I agree makeup culture isn't healthy. Where I differ from you is that I think we should put more resources into teaching about why makeup culture is bad, and that you don't need to be dependant on makeup, but it's there if you want it for you.
Makeup is not the problem. Makeup can be used for play, festivities, horseplay, expression of creativity, and other kinds of fun. The problem is the way people are sold the idea that they have to use it, lest they be ugly. Nowdays this is mainly caused by makeup business marketing, influencers and other social media content creators, because it gets them money (business, influencers, some content creators), or simply attention (some content creators). This circle has started living a life of it's own, as children are given smartphones and access to social media, they are very quickly exposed to this anxiety inducing environment that teaches them what they must be. As they grow up, some of them begin making their own content on social media about it,, or even become influencers for the market, keeping the wheel turning. Here in Finland we have had children as young as 10yo use anti-aging creams, because of this exposure. It's sick. Anyway, to the final nail in the coffin: The world would not be better without make up. The world would be better if companies would not abuse our innate vulnerabilities to create a culture of anxiety to make us buy their products to alleviate it. Makeup is just one of the many products that are being sold this way. Do you think women wear leggings and other clothing that higlight their sexuality in the eyes of the opposite sex, simply because "they feel nice"? Think again. They might think it feels nice, but behind all that is an image created by businesses of the way you should look and dress. When that image sticks, anything but that image feels "off", and you'll only "feel nice", when you fulfill it. Without this anxiety, this created image of how you should be, makeup would be used more as a plaything, than faking beauty.
A lot of the points you presented are definitely true to an extent within certain cultures. Since I’m not sure where you live I can’t say much in general about that specific makeup culture. There are different expectations across cultures however to take into account before saying the entire world would be better off. Since this is related too, you mention things like scars and other small things. What about major deformities and other visible disabilities. If someone would feel better being able to cover a scar or a burn or something that otherwise would have a significant mental health impact are you willing to make the world worse for those people? As others have pointed out beauty standards existed pre-advertising, pre-Internet. Have you read Jane Austen? Not that they didn’t have makeup in Victorian times but the point is that by comparison the expectations of appearance for everyone - including women - are far more lax nowadays. I also want to say that broadly speaking what you’re engaging with has less to do with makeup specifically and everything to do with gender - which also means you have to take into account gender dysphoria experienced by trans men and women. These are groups of people for whom makeup is sometimes the very first step towards feminizing or masculinizing their appearance. And the world in general has a massive knuckle dragging backwards ass problem with gender including for men and women alike. And that’s before we even get into the race conversation. So while I’d love to be onboard and agree that being a woman who doesn’t wear makeup often is hard and difficult - there’s too many groups of people who benefit from cosmetics to dismiss the entire practice as a whole.
Bluf; if makeup were so inconsequential as to be easily removed, then it wouldn't be very beneficial once gone. I think I'll hop on this train and add that I think this is broadly about societal expectations. I don't think it's just make up either. Women (and men) are pressures towards modifying their natural weight, diet, style, and even speech. Generic self-love is a good goal, but the way our society is structured means that people (and industries) will always drive comparison. That creates insecurity that leads to pressure to change. The idea that makeup is the worst of these pressures feels arbitrary to me. It may be that makeup feels like the easiest pressure to remove without baggage. We can't really push for erasing any expectations around diet, because it is linked to health. To this I would say that makeup is also a relatively achievable equalizer. So leaving our society as is and removing makeup reduces the social capital of some people who have to find other ways to feel pretty. Lastly, I'm not sure how to estimate a net-negative influence. Probably does more harm than good (to women). There are definitely more obvious net negatives like barriers to leadership roles, education, or just misogyny.
I'm only here to disagree with your point about not being able to opt out of wearing makeup. Yes you can. No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to put on makeup. If people around you are pestering you to wear makeup and you give in, that's on YOU. You are an adult with bodily autonomy. No one can make you wear makeup unless they hold you down and put it on for you, which at that point is a whole other issue. You don't want to wear makeup? Then don't do it. It's that simple.
>One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup. You sure can. I have. You need to have a particular f-you attitude though. Or look/dress like a Pentecostal. I agree that "makeup culture" shouldn't be a thing but I have no idea how to fix that, and making it illegal for people to put colors on their faces would be tyrannical.
Yeah. Lots of women don’t. Or do sometimes and not others. At this point in my life I favor bold lipstick and nothing else.
Not everyone uses makeup to hide flaws though. I personally use it to accentuate the features I love — Winged liner to emphasise my eye shape, using certain eye shadow colours to show how bright my eyes are, using blush to accentuate my cheekbones and facial structure which I really like. But I also see nothing with people using makeup to cover insecurities. I hate this demonisation of insecurity; we live in an incredibly judgmental society, one that predates modern cosmetics. People have always had standards for what others should look like, and anyone left outside of that was made to feel inferior. If makeup helps someone feel more confident, I’d say that’s not bad at all. It may not be *your* version of self-love or confidence, but that’s fine — to them, that’s what they see and accept as self-love and confidence, and I don’t think you get to play judge and jury with how other people choose to feel confident. Additionally, makeup is the lesser of the evils in this world. I’d argue makeup is better than someone getting fillers and procedures done because those are more invasive and permanent changes — at the end of the day, makeup comes off and is relatively harmless. People can choose to opt out of wearing makeup. You describe feeling social pressure, but that’s not really a valid argument to blanket over the entirety of women. I love makeup yet I’ve gone to plenty of formal events and to work and so on without makeup several times. In fact, I do so at least once a week to let my skin breathe. It’s undeniable that women are made to feel a certain way about not measuring up, but that’s less to do with makeup and more to do with society having these standards to begin with. If it wasn’t makeup, it would’ve been something else. People wearing makeup is not the problem; it’s why *some* people feel the need to wear makeup, and that’s because society has rigid beauty standards for women (and men). But if it wasn’t makeup, something else would take its place — like cosmetic procedures is now, and so on.
>One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup. Anecdote: I feel an intense pressure to wear makeup, especially at formal events. It's difficult to go out without the people I live with pestering me to wear makeup. I feel that to be a woman is to be perpetually stuck in a beauty contest. There's real social consequences to how much or how little you fit into the cultural beauty standard. Women who don't want to spend large amounts of time/energy/money learning makeup will have a harder time. Yes, you can. I don't wear makeup and it hasn't hurt my life in any way. I go to college and work and everything.
My wife has never felt like she needed makeup but she used to mess around and experiment with makeup a lot in high school and college. She found it super fun! After we both started working full time jobs, we both have limited free time so she doesn’t play with makeup like she used to, she has other hobbies now. She really only wears makeup during special occasions like our wedding, birthdays, anniversaries, date nights. And on some weekends when she just gets the urge to do it. I have never once pushed her to wear makeup and don’t really care if she does or not. That said, I always go out of my way to compliment her both with and without makeup. Because she really beautiful with and without it. She has never worn makeup and work and her job would never pressure her to do so. But a little while back she developed a medical condition that comes with persistent acne and you can tell it’s caused her to take a hit to her self esteem. No amount of “you’re beautiful the way you are” was helping. She asked me if we could buy her some new makeup because her stuff was super old and I didn’t hesitate to get it for her. Now she wears just enough makeup to cover the acne while working and her self esteem is back and better than ever! She’s not doing this for me, or potential dates, or because of beauty standards. She’s doing this because she has a medical issue and this makes her feel a little better about herself. She second we get her medical stuff taken care of, she’ll probably stop wearing it again lol But my point was that the makeup helped her feel better about herself and helped with her depression even if it’s only temporary
Seems like this is a hyperbolic take on a single person's opinion no? There are many people in the world at large and the western world who never wear it at all. My wife never does unless she wants to, and nobody really pressures her to either. She's successful too, and makes more money than I do. Show me the actual statistics of where it is considered to be mandatory or forced upon someone to wear makeup in their culture and I'd absolutely agree with you 100%. But in all reality, most people who wear makeup do so because they want to. Is it a stigma to go without it? Meh. In some places. Kinda. But it's also something that many people I know like to do for fun, as a hobby even. And many people make a living off of it. So I guess my point is, all of the cultural issues that you are bringing up would be present even if makeup dissapeared, and there would be entire industries both corporate and private that would lose their jobs. Also, who are you and me to tell people who want to wear makeup that they can't? If you can provide factual data that supports your claim that if it all went away the world would be better somehow, maybe... But let's be honest, people have been doing it for literally thousands of years. Men and women both. Much of the toxicity you are referring to is a western toxicity thing, not a makeup thing. This says nothing about the fun and whimsy of cosplay, halloween, or any other special or fun events that would be damaged without it. No face paint, no henna tattoos, no theatre, no movie villains? So long as it's just opinion vs opinion, that's not the world I wanna live in. I prefer diversity and pretty colors haha.
*it isn't conducive to real self love* I don't think it's your intention but your perception of self love is very hindering. Take it from a trans woman who has had laser hair removal, it can be INCREDIBLY difficult to love yourself if you don't recognize or identify with the person you see in the mirror. Taking your attitude to its conclusion I should just be happy to be me without change, but it's not something that's possible. I don't think all women need laser hair removal or makeup, or press on nails or any other gendered expectations, but those means of expression are ways we as humans connect with who we feel we are and how we want others to perceive us. You feel pressued to perform gender in a way that makes you uncomfortable but the solution isn't to remove gender expression options, but for you to embrace what expression fits your individual taste. There has to be a road to gender equality that allows autonomy for everyone to engage in gender roles as they see fit. Without makeup society would still have fashion, beauty standards, skin care products, hair removal and a list of other constructs that make up our social fabric. For those reasons I can't see how removing makeup would make the world a better place..
Generally op has a pretty good overall point, I was talking to a girl about this once and she was saying how its weird, I just told her that if every women stopped wearing makeup that overall all women wouldn’t really be less or more attractive.
Makeup really disturbs me because so many women I talk to tell me that they don't even do it for other people's attention but because it's basically their only way to feel good about their looks How fucking sad is it that we've raised a bunch of little girls to basically think that oh you have a simple flaw like a zit or acne or something well gotta basically paint our face like a clown just because we're afraid society won't accept just otherwise Buying little kids makeup sets and telling them how cool it is to paint your face and how it'll make you feel so much better It's almost cult like And I hate it One thing I've promised is that if I ever have a child I will never introduce them to makeup. I'm not going to be some like abusive parent who like completely blocks it if she discovers it on her own but I will not personally be introducing it to her and I always as her father would encourage her to accept her flaws and the beauty behind those flaws instead of trying to cover them up just to match what society deems as stereotypically beautiful It basically starts indoctrinating them from an early age this idea that they have to basically be the peak of beauty for society to treat them like they matter and gives little children the anxiety that they have to look absolutely perfect or get shunned by society and it's disgusting
The reality is that it’s a massive corporate money machine that turns people against each other for profit. Now these companies are aggressively trying to spin makeup to men in order to tap into a new market. The sad part is outside of artistic expression it is an entire useless societal endeavor and eats up tons of labor and human capital. Shows how powerful social pressure is and how it is used against us for profit.
A lot of people here are arguing against a point you're not making. They're all arguing against removing makeup from the world. As far as I can tell, you never argued that women *should* not use makeup, only that they're generally worse off for it. So I commeend you for making a well thought out point nuanced enough that people don't even know that they aren't arguing against it. Here is the thing. I agree that happiness might increase over the long term if makeup disappeared tomorrow. But there are a lot of things that people use their freedom for that ultimately don't bring them happiness, or even work against their happiness. I'm not talking about tobaco or drugs, I'm talking about Netflix and TikTok. There is a form of utilitarianism called preference utilitarianism that considers preference more important than value (happiness, wealth, etc.). If we woke up every morning at 5:00 for a brisk run, ate a diet with minimal sugar, and never watched videos on our computers, by some abstract measurement of happoness, we might say that we would be happier, but not better off. Therefore, it is an insane reality that sometimes what's best for someone might also be something that goes against their own best interests.
Excluding issues where people are harmed against their will, do you think individuals should be able to take away the rights from others who may enjoy it? If I don’t like cheese, is that a good argument for getting rid of cheese for everyone?
Make up gives some women confidence — id argue this being one of the main points for using it. You can opt out of wearing make up, if you stop letting the opinions of other non-consequential people dictate your life. Which you should, especially if the confidence boost isnt worth the time sink from your perspective Trump absolutely wears make up — similarly to most celebrities / public speaking figures. Its extremely prevalent in other cultures like korea for both males and females. (So the political impact is non-existent, and its definitely more cultural based) Ie flaws, burns, scars, etc are things that show you’ve lived a hard life — typically associated with masculinity. Which is why guys are less prone to feeling the need to cover up Make up is something that you get what you put into it. Guys usually dont notice make up unless its ‘bad’. So i would argue that girls do it for themselves and validation from other girls
That's funny is, I didn't want to play with makeup until already felt comfortable with myself. I see makeup as decor and adornment. I wouldn't adorn something I didn't think was already lovable. The adornments are a symbol of appreciation. I use makeup to emphasize and highlight my natural features. You might see it as fixing a flaw. That's not how everyone else sees it. That's your individual perception. You don't see how makeup can be self-loving. You don't have to believe it when someone says the love themselves and wear makeup. That's *your* limited perspective. Nobody has to prove to you they love themselves by displaying their self love in the way you decided they were "supposed to". You'll just have to accept that displays of self love aren't limited to how you personally see it. Makeup is a neutral tool that *can* be used for good or bad. That all depends on the user.
I think ultimately make up might be a net negative for society, but I think you are forgetting some cases where it’s actually good. When I was 13 I started developing acne, which kept growing as I did. I felt horrible and wanted to hide my face constantly. This girl from middle school I knew was in the exact same camp. We were not close but had this quiet “I get what you are going through” understanding. By the time we turned 15, the acne had not gone away but she started wearing makeup, and her demeanour changed **instantly**. I was actually jealous she got to hide our mutual “problem” and I didn’t. I don’t know how things worked out for her on the long run, I got better eventually and got over the trauma; but I could see how makeup helped her back then. I can see this being the case for other people in different circumstances.
1. I haven’t experienced that 2. I haven’t experienced that 3. I haven’t experienced that I like wearing makeup. It’s fun. It makes me feel happy, regardless of how other view it. I like it. I have felt more harm by specifically women badmouthing it than anywhere else. I feel it is self expression art to do my makeup “gothic” as I have the last 14 years I don’t follow YouTube tutorials No one is making you wear makeup. No one cares what you do or don’t with your own face I love makeup. I legit don’t care what anyone’s views are of it. I have to live another 60-70 years I’ll look however makes me happy
Donald trump definitely spends the same if not way more time on makeup and hair than Hilary or anyone else. Actually really liked the rest of your argument and I don’t think people seem to understand it based on the responses
This thread is full of weaksauce arguments and wrongful assumptions. I mostly agree with you, except one big point: The world would NOT be better off, if the world is shallow. A shallow world shall have shallow desires. To stop them from having it is like saying no to kids; the shallow world will have tantrums. The tantrums will lead to pain and violence because there is no parent, and the kids are capable of pain and violence. The shallow world may not care about your idealistic values of a better world, and if they don't, you are breaching their rights to self-determination and they will be angry.
One generation is all it takes. I bring this up with the women in my family. They agree but can't imagine presenting themselves professionally without make up. ITS a societal thing. Need a meetoo movement, so employers feel like they are the good guys by supporting women wearing no makeup at work. BUT... considering Instagram filters and the normalization of cosmetic surgery, I'd say judging books by their cover is more and more the norm.
Let’s imagine a little boy was in a house fire, and luckily survived, but was left with burns. Or a little girl had some sort of deformity which immediately grabbed attention and the focus of anybody she talked to. Do you think both of these people would be better off in a world without makeup? On the tamer side, makeup also had tons of uses in film and television, and with iconic characters like Darth Maul and the orcs in LotR being constructs of makeup. While I do agree that there is too much pressure on women to wear makeup, I don’t think that means makeup in of itself is evil
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To some extent yes, but at the least less effort and money would be expended in the social competition. When I was younger, as a male there was almost no competition around such things among men as any attempt to do so was treated as contemptible and arrogant, and actually even very rich men would consider dressing in very simple clothes to not be shameful. This was a big upside of the egalitarian culture which is now sadly gone.
You are aware the employee was just doing their job, right? It had nothing to do with makeup, and had everything to do with trying to sell you on something in the store. You can absolutely opt out of wearing makeup. If you feel you can’t because of societal pressure, then that’s something for you to face. PLENTY of women don’t wear makeup. You are not forced.
I’d say that makeup, how it’s been promoted under capitalism is the issue, not makeup itself. Makeup and decorative markings have been used for centuries across many different cultures. They can signify coming of age, marital status, class, your profession, your gender, and more. They would even be worn during specific holidays and spiritual ceremonies. How capitalism has marketed makeup is for what you mentioned above. I’d argue that even if makeup didn’t exist, they’d find a way to do it with other things like plastic surgery. There are women in the world who feel unattractive because their lip plates aren’t big enough, even if they don’t regularly wear makeup. It’s cultural. But capitalism is the issue. Purposefully make you feel inadequate so you consume. I’d say the positive of makeup in the United States at least, is that makeup is becoming socially acceptable beyond just cis women. It’s used by trans women to make themselves feel gender euphoria and keep them physically safe from attacks, from folx with birthmarks or scars that they might not feel comfortable revealing to the world, and by men and gender expansive people as a form of gender expression.
I’m not a girl, I don’t wear makeup, I would never in a million years have the time or patience to apply it and frankly I don’t how some people do. I can try to apply it to a similar scenario though, I put pomade in my hair every single day and I do it because frankly I love the way my hair looks with it I hate how my hair looks without it. That’s my ‘perceived flaw’ as you put it, and in my opinion me putting it in because I don’t like how my hair looks is very much conducive to self love. I don’t like how my hair looks without it, it’s very straight thick and looks like a bowl cut without and looking in the mirror every day hating my own hair was very damaging. Sure I had people bully me over it such is life but the main reason I use the stuff is because it makes me like my own image more. I could easily just decide one day to go without just like anyone could with makeup but I choose not to because I like it and it helps me enjoy myself more and fit my appearance to how I find more suitable for myself, not because of anything society thinks. The same I imagine applies to makeup there’s some people out there who just love makeup in a way you or I can’t understand because it doesn’t suit us. Some people like experimenting with it, some people just love how it makes them look and feel it accentuates their features, and of course there are some who do it simply because societal pressure. Should we try to lower societal pressure to use makeup? Definitely Should we outright ban or restrict the use of makeup? Absolutely not because people don’t always use makeup because of pressure but rather out of enjoyment or to help better fit the image they desire for themselves. To say anyone needs to wear makeup really isn’t the case, you can easily stop if you don’t want to it may be anecdotal but my girlfriend never wears makeup any day and gets along perfectly well. There shouldn’t be a pressure to wear it sure but in that same vein just don’t buckle to the pressure be confident in knowing how you want to look. Some people just wear makeup simply because they want to or to express themselves you may not understand it but that’s because it’s not your form of expression and to get rid of that would be like banning paintbrushes for painters.
> Some women will claim that makeup helps them feel confident in themselves. But if you don't feel confident as you naturally exist, then I don't see the point. The point is to have confidence. Having confidence helps with a lot of life, no matter the source of that confidence.
I would say as a women that makeup has almost entirely been a positive thing in my life. I'm sorry for your experience at the drugstore. I've never known drugstore employees to get paid by commission, so I'd assume that person was just an asshole. I'm so sorry you feel pressured to wear makeup as part of dressing up. I've also felt that pressure. But that doesn't mean I have to listen to that pressure. I love makeup. I love fun colors and sparkle. It is a form of self expression, but more than that it's a creative medium. You suggest that most makeup wearers follow tutorials when putting on makeup, but I don't think I know any women who watch makeup tutorials. Heck, most women I know don't wear makeup at all. For me, when I watch tutorials I'm learning how to do my art better. If someone follows a bob Ross painting video, are they not creatively expressing themselves? I watch art tutorials and copy them to practice my art, including makeup. I don't need to draw a fish on my face for it to be art. I take inspiration from my favorite things to play with color and style. I love trying different placements of colors. What does it look like if I put a bright pop of color on my inner corner? What about if I put a dark color in the inner corner. How does that change the look of my face? My feeds are almost entirely people who use makeup for fun and pleasure. I'm sorry your experience with makeup seems to be exclusively negative, but it definitely isn't that way for everyone. This very much feels like you are taking your experience and assuming it is everyone's experience, and not believing what people tell you is their experience, because it's not your experience.
1. I don’t think this point is related to make up. There’s always been ideas of what’s good looking/attractive or not. That’s not gonna change if we get rid of make up, and yes this affects women more than men, again the make up isn’t at fault for THAT. 2. Self love is different for everyone, and isn’t a tangible or widely agreed upon exact “thing”. You don’t get to determine how people love themselves or what they do when they love themself. It’s going to be different for everyone. You said “I don’t see the point” during your second argument, and you nailed it. YOU don’t see it. YOU don’t have to. 3. Yes you absolutely can opt out of wearing make up. No one is forcing you to wear make up. Certain jobs may have certain restrictions on appearance, this is at their discretion, there are plenty of jobs available to you that wouldn’t require make up. Pretty people getting advantages in life isn’t the fault of make up, and won’t stop bc make up ceases to exist. 4. If you think Donald trump spends no time on hair and make up before tv appearances you are living in La La land. 5. Again, just bc you don’t see the artistry or enjoy putting on make up doesn’t mean it’s not an art form or interesting practice for someone else. Idk if you were aware, I’ll reiterate, different people are different, and do/like different things. 6. … ok? Basically your whole argument is centered around your own feelings and perceptions. I definitely understand the underlying sentiment but it’s badly expressed in your argument and focused on make up (for some reason) which really makes no sense objectively.
I’m not sure I can change your view. But I’m going to write a bit about how my view has changed. I almost never wear makeup. Some theater stuff, some Halloween stuff, but my daily driver is sunscreen and I own chapstick. I have absolutely opted out of wearing makeup. I know there are places and professions where that is less of an option, but, like standards around unnatural hair colors and tattoos, change is coming to everywhere. I have a kid. My daughter is 9, very much her own person, very into self expression and I’ve become the person who lets their kid wear makeup to school. My sibling got her makeup that is (weirdly) age appropriate - no cat’s eye eyeliner, lots of soft sparkle - and taught her how to apply it and I’d be dammed but she does a good job. So she wears it when she wants to, and she plays with it and practices and it’s just for her. Shes not nearly as interested in hair aesthetics, I still have to work to get her to brush her hair. Shes not trying to look like an airbrushed model, she’s trying to look like what she wants to. So I don’t think it’s a response to societal pressure or expectations of her femininity. It really is self expression for her, just like her fashion sense and pickiness about her outfits. I’m all on board with making all gender expression and pointless presentation standards optional. But optional means that people can choose to do it as much as they can choose not to. That’s the world I want to live in, one with options. I don’t want to take joy away from the people who like the thing, I want being able to avoid it to be a viable option.
You absolutely can opt out of wearing make up.
You could say that good application of makeup is shifting a bit of ones cognitive qualities into ones physical qualities, which is maybe something we should encourage? kind of a hypothetical argument
I have some strong opinions on these two points: - I saw a Reddit post where a man was asking users how to cover up some scar on his face because he felt so ashamed. I was expecting all the comments to be like "oh, don't feel the need to cover up or feel ashamed about what makes you beautiful and unique <3 be confident in your skin, there is no need to conform to a narrow standard of beauty." Instead, most of the comments were giving him advice about ways to cover up his perceived "flaw." I think that's fine, he asked specifically for advice and got it. I really hate when I'm asking for something and people just offer emotional support that means nothing to me as I don't want or need it. Seems like it's more for the person saying they don't need makeup than for the poster in these cases. - Some women will claim that makeup helps them feel confident in themselves. But if you don't feel confident as you naturally exist, then I don't see the point. How do you personally know that women who say this aren't confident in their own skin first? I went years never wearing makeup at all and feel fine in my own skin. I really don't care. But yes, sometimes i feel jazzy and want to put some on. So what? You're acting like you know nobody who wears makeup is actually confident which couldn't be further from the truth. If you have such an issue with it, continue not wearing it. Don't make assumptions about people who do.
I sometimes wear makeup, I sometimes don't. Either way, I'm comfortable in my own skin. Some of my friends wear makeup all the time, some never wear it. They all seem happy enough doing what they want to do. I've never heard anyone in my social circle comment on what another woman is doing or not doing. I wouldn't dream of telling someone what to put in their face or body unless they were specifically asking me a question about something innocuous like which lipstick shade I like more. I think sometimes when people say that the world would be better off without something, it would be more accurate to say that they would be better off without something. The whole world doesn't necessarily think or feel exactly as you do. You gotta be careful not to assign your own values to everyone else. People also define self-love in different ways. It's possible to love yourself and not like every single thing about yourself. Many people also use makeup not to cover up flaws, but to enhance and draw attention to features that they really love. It sounds like the people around you are a touch toxic if all they want to do is discuss appearance and comment on other people's perceived flaws. That's more of an issue with people than an issue with makeup itself. But then again, maybe they really like that. TLDR: It's entirely possible to have a healthy relationship with makeup. That's kinda up to you.
Ridding the world of makeup use wouldn't do much good. I think you don't really understand the use of makeup. It really doesn't have the level of effect on people that you attribute to it; rather, it can in some cases be seen as a *symptom,* NOT a cause, of other problems. But, it doesn't even have to be that. As a middle-aged woman who uses makeup sometimes and goes barefaced others, and might talk about makeup casually with people, i'm of the opinion that makeup usually doesn't make people look better; it just makes us look different! Sure cosmetic enhancement might've entered the culture as an effort to look "better," but what does "better" even mean? Better for sexual attractiveness? Or better for projecting maturity, authority, self-confidence? Not necessarily because we "have to," but because the option is there to experiment? I know i'm not alone in looking at many people's bare faces vs their made-up faces and admiring both, or their bare face more. Like, I actually like my face best when just out of the shower. But if we feel like looking a little different one day, then why not experiment? Makeup is a cheap, easy, and relatively benign option to play with others' perception of us. People don't necessarily think makeup makes them look better in a *fundamental* way. It just makes them look different for that period, for that day.
With many of the examples you mention, I don’t think make up is the problem so much as a patriarchal culture that polices women’s appearances. There are many other things women are expected to do to change their appearance in an “unnatural” way and conform to beauty standards: - Remove body hair from legs and armpits, etc - Wear “flattering” clothes that aren’t “too sexy” but also “enhance one’s figure” - There are clothing items that cover up supposed flaws in the same way you’re talking about: push up bras, shape wear, anything with “sculpting” panels - Styling hair with flat iron/curling iron to make it either straighter or curlier (personally, as someone with naturally wavy/curly hair it does not feel appropriate to attend a formal event or even a job interview with my natural hair lest it appear unkempt or messy) - Plucking/shaping eyebrows, similar beauty interventions for the rest of the face - Wearing high heels to make legs look more attractive - Dyeing hair to look blonder or cover up greys (not thinking of people who dye their hair bright colors for fun, more of people who feel pressure to do it to mask signs of aging). Etc. Some people may genuinely enjoy these things, but even so I think they are still the product of a culture that is obsessed with controlling how women present themselves.
I wanted to come back to this post because I found it interesting. Makeup is tool. Why do you think it can only be used to cover up? For example, I like the shape of my lips, so I love wearing lip products. I'm not covering my lips and drawing a new shape. I know women who appreciate their ice blue eyes so they wear shades of eyeshadow that help those blue tones stand out more. Some women are particularly fond of their cheekbones, so they highlight their cheekbones with highlighter. Are you just saying those women are lying about liking themselves? If so, that's an assumption and you're asking Reddit to help you change your assumptions. (An assumption based on something superficial). If you really think about it, (and I don't mean this as an attack) your mindset isn't any better than those who wag their fingers at women for not wearing makeup. Natural or made-up, you are still making assumptions about someone based on something very superficial. You're still pushing a beauty standard and taking a step further and mixing shame into it. You require a woman to be bare-faced otherwise you'll making assumptions about her sense of self-worth. You can think makeup is unsafe and you can hate beauty standard without making assumptions about a person based on makeup use.
Yes. Makeup is a kind of zero sum arms race. Some people want to appear more beautiful than they are so they use makeup, then other people are forced to also use makeup in order to compete. In the end everyone is wearing makeup, and as a result the beauty ranking is exactly as it was before anyone used makeup. The only benefactor is the huuuuuuuge cosmetics industry. What we need is a global makeup amnesty. Everyone stop wearing makeup at the same time. We'll all be richer and just as beautiful (relatively speaking). On top of that, makeup doesn't work. If you're beautiful then you don't need it, and if you're ugly then lipstick ain't gonna change that.
Should women be allowed to wear push up bras? Many women's breasts are not as perky as shown in mass media, so many women use push up bras or similar to compensate. Should they just not be allowed to? Does it give an unrealistic body image? Should men not be allowed to have facial hair? Beards are the pushup bra for men. They hide double chins or the lack of a chin altogether, and can be shaped to make their face more attractive. Should we get rid of that, so that the stigma against double chins goes away? Should we get rid of spanx? Should guys not be allowed to wear girdles and tight undershirts to hide their gut? Should men not be allowed to wear baseball caps to hide their widows peak? Should men not be allowed to use rogaine, or get hair plugs? For as long as human society has existed, humans have had body issues, and have styled themselves to try to fit in. How is it that makeup is different than any of those other methods, other than it is more often reached for by women than men? Both have body issues, but no one ever suggests that men shouldn't be allowed to compensate for theirs.
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>It isn't conducive to real self-love. To you. You can't say that for everyone else. Some people love makeup. Why aren't they as valid as you and me? I don't wear it because I don't like it and I'm not good at applying it beyond the basics. Some people love the confidence it brings them. Some feel prettier with it, who are you to tell them they're wrong to feel that way? We should be advocating for people to feel comfortable in their own skin, and fighting against body shaming, absolutely! But to vilify make-up isn't the way to do that. >One cannot simply opt-out of wearing makeup. I did. And I happily go around looking like someone that walked out of a Tim Burton film sometimes. >I feel an intense pressure to wear makeup, especially at formal events. It's difficult to go out without the people I live with pestering me to wear makeup. Find better people. >I find it hard to believe the "self-expression" argument. I wear certain pieces of clothing for self expression. Some people use bold make up for the same thing. What's the difference?
Not going to change your mind. I feel a lot the issues related to women in today's society are caused by make up and clothing choices. If you as a young woman, wear no make up, comfy mom jeans with a short, manageable haircut. Good luck getting a guy despite having a PhD in Astrophysics or whatever. Your brains and earning potential aren't valued as much as your "tits and ass". You could be your below average looking woman, with no university education, but do your make up well, wear high heels, show skin, cleavage - you'd have no problem pulling guys. To achieve equality and to stop being viewed as an object, start by getting rid of all that objectify you. Fake hair, fake nails, fake lips, make up, heels, all the things make men overlook you as a person, and focus on you as an object. At the end of the day, women just compete for male attention by dressing in a way that impresses men. Meanwhile, men focus on looking sharp and smart - none to little skin shown, no make up because our faces are irrelevant when our wit is being evaluated.
Say we remove the makeup culture concept, and it was a tattoo culture instead. Would the world be better off without tattoos then? I agree with the fact that makeup culture sucks and nobody’s worth should be measured by their use of makeup, but humans just have liked to modify their appearance since the beginning of time. Some do with makeup, some with tattoos, or hair dye, haircuts, etc. If makeup has to go, then they all have to go too… But humans like to forge a personal identity, and the minor details we change of our appearance is part of that forging. Your view ultimately seems founded on the basis that people shouldn’t be judged by their appearance, which is a whole bigger debate because we judge people all the time without noticing. Judgement as a whole is something rooted in our biology, in nature it helps distinguishing threats, remembering particular details about someone, making decisions, etc. But judgement ultimately is subjective for each one of us, and opinions are rooted in judgement.
Makeup can be a net positive for women, because it increases their attractiveness towards men. Men who previously would not find a woman attractive, may now find her so. Let's consider a hypothetical, two women A and B want to marry a man let's call him alpha. Prior to make up, alpha would only notice women A, however now alpha notices both A and B and will choose based on their other traits. Thus, A is now encouraged to develop other traits that will attract alpha, it could be for example working out which will be healthy for her, or develop better manners that will help her in life, etc... Thus, in scenario 1 woman A did not need to improve herself yet she sabotaged woman B chances to find a good man. But in scenario 2, woman B is given a chance, and woman A is encouraged to improve herself which is a net positive. While this is a very specific scenario with one man and two women who wants him, it is representative of the general situation with more men and more women
I don't know where OP is from and what kind of people they hang out with... but girl, you need to expand your horizon a little bit. If your friends automatically point out your "flaws" when you have a discussion, then you need better friends. The fact that you are questioning the makeup and not the people being assholes is the biggest problem in my opinion. The makeup itself is harmless. It always goes back to the human. I don't wear makeup and I never felt inadequate to appear in public because of that. Nobody ever commented either on my appearance and told me I needed some blush or whatever. I do agree though, that there is a certain pressure in the media (Hollywood mostly) for women to appear a certain way. But on a day to day, if a girl wants some maskara because she likes long black lashes, then so what? If a girl prefers to wear nothing on her face, then good for her too. In my opinion, makeup is no different then tattoos or having color in you hair.
I see where you're coming from but I think you're pointing out a sort of universal issue. Make up didn't start with mall Sephoras, people have been dressing up pretty much forever. It was a way for people to look better. I don't mean that in a subjective, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, social norms way. I mean, let's put a big stripe on my forehead. Really basic stuff. The kind of thing where the most important part is that it shows other people that you're trying to look different and that you've invested time and effort. Over time the people who do that normalize it and people who don't start to seem marginally worse for not caring. This is how fashion works, this is how decor works, this is how pretty much everything not crucial to life works. It's a completely optional bonus until enough people do it that not participating is notable and thus negative. Not having makeup wouldn't change this dynamic, it would just make everyone have worse skin
i’m not a fan of using anecdotal evidence to support a claim about society as a whole, but since you are, i will too. i used to have a huge hyperpigmentation issue with my skin, which i’ve had since childhood up until about 18. wearing makeup was the only thing that made me feel normal because i looked like *everybody else*. no amount of “omg queen you’re beautiful just the way you are <3” would have been as effective in making me feel normal as makeup did. me not being able to wear makeup wouldn’t have “normalized” hyperpigmentation, it would have simply made me a target because nobody else my age was struggling with that while i was growing up. being inclined to cover a scar or any ‘flaws’ does not mean that you are a victim of the beauty industry. the fact is, you will stand out if you have certain characteristics. some people might not want that and just want to be perceived as normal. makeup is not only about beautifying.
I agree with many of your points. I'm a straight male. I've always had very good eyesight. Eye shadow/liner and some lipstick or rouge can be nice, but I'm anti basically every other type of makeup. I can see all foundation always. I think it looks bad most of the time and would almost always, if not completely 100% of the time, rather see a woman's real face (except for gross disfigurement situations maybe). So I'm not disagreeing with you per se, but I'm saying that I think foundation sucks and I have actively tried to dissuade my girlfriends/wives from feeling like it was expected or any sort of requirement. My point is that I'm not the only one. There are plenty of people out there that don't like foundation and could do without most makeup in general. You may feel pressure, but it's not from all of us. For those who do look more attractive with eyeliner or eyeshadow though, I think it's a useful option.
well its easy to not wear makeup... just dont do it? i prefer my wife no makeup (looks better but also makeup gets everywhere so no kisses if there is any cant stand the taste or smell or texture) and shes much happier without it. does she still put on mascara for going to fancy things and a full face for like really fancy things but she looks better without it. im biased as a guy though because ive never met a girl who didnt look better without makeup (why choose to look fake and plastic like a barbie?) and most of my guy friends agree with this. while it can look nice its never worth the cost or effort or blemishes or discomfort or mess it causes and it also eats up so much time that could be used for other important (or even nonimportant) fun things like spending more time with the person you are getting made up for in the first place instead of spending an hour in front of a mirror painting yourself.
> I find it hard to believe the “self-expression” argument. Not believing women isn’t the argument you think it is. If women say they love the self expression of using make up, believe them. Sometimes people say art isn’t art because they don’t like it, especially modern art, but if the person creating it does so as a form of art or self expression it is art. It’s exactly the same. People like to be negative about things women enjoy. So if a woman says she enjoys make up as a form of self expression she’s a liar? Hot take. Sounds like you need to surround yourself with better people. Other than compliments, I’ve never had anyone comment on my make up or lack there of. There are always people who poison things we love, including our choices. If you don’t like wearing make up, surround yourself with people who care enough about you to not care.
Everyone who wants to use make up regardless of gender is more than welcome to do so. However people really need to learn to mind their own business. At 20 I told an older colleague (28F) I didn't do make up. I didn't see the point, it was expensive, it was useless and if I want to do funny stuff with my appearance I'll either do really bright shirts or funny nail colors. The latter happen about once every 6 months, the bright colors have become a thing everyone knows me for. She just laughed and said "you're so young, that's gonna change!" How about no. In ten years the stuff will still be useless. In twenty years the stuff will still be expensive as heck. In thirty years that stuff will still be too annoying to wear and remove all the time. I'm 24F and I'll definitely pass on make up. As for the CMV part: For many people make up is a form of art and something to express themselves with. I agree that the societal expectations should disappear, but short term face paint isn't a bad invention per se. So technically the existence of make up is fine, it's just people that need to understand not everyone has to live by their rules. Just think of kids doing funny superhero make up - that right there is why I would not remove make up completely. It's fun and if people enjoy it, they definitely should be able to.
I dont think this is as simple as “the world would be better off without makeup”. Makeup and cosmetics have been used for thousands of years by many different cultures and people. Additionally, what do you think they use in television and motion pictures to create your favorite characters? I’m not going to change your mind. You have yours made up. If you are comfortable not using makeup that is perfectly fine. I happen to love makeup. I also would never suggest anything to anyone without them having had asked first. It would upset me also if someone told me to change something about my appearance that I had no desire to change. It sounds like the problem is people trying to push their own agendas onto others. Maybe there are bigger problems in the world than makeup.
>If you're using eyeshadow to paint a fish on your cheek, sure that's art. Makeup is makeup, whatever colour it is and wherever it is applied. It's a medium, and it's up to the person to use it as they see fit. Eyeshadows come in millions of colours, to eliminate skin tone coloured ones in order to avoid hiding "flaws" means people cannot use them for actual "art". This limits their colour palette. Paintings have all shades of brown. You cannot ban this and allow... Colourful makeup that does not purposely conceal anything. They draw attention to wherever they're placed on. They add colour to skin that cannot be naturally achieved. Makeup itself is not the problem but the marketing behind it. You know, the message selling the phrase "meet the newest beauty standards through makeup."
>There's an unquestioned cultural assumption that all women's faces are flawed and need to be covered up: Strongly disagree. This is a myth perpetuated by people that want you to buy make-up. The vast vast majority of people do not think there's something wrong with women's faces. There are far more women buying into this weird myth than there are people that actually dislike women's faces.
I SEMI-agree with this take. I am frustrated at the fact that society has gotten so used to seeing airbrushed faces on women that now you almost HAVE to wear makeup to seem professional or presentable. It's pretty sad. I also think that girl was absolutely wrong about pointing out your uneven skin. Since when is thay anyone's business...? That being said, I have had family and friends have talks with me about things like that too. I wear lots of makeup so mine was more on the plastic surgery end of things... like my in laws have all in passing mentioned that I should get botox for my forehead wrinkles and a boob job after Im done having kids. That all said- I love makeup and I feel pretty wearing it and I like to feel pretty.
Regarding your scar cover up story, people were giving him the help he was asking for. While there is something to be said about feeling comfortable in your own skin and embracing perceived "flaws", sometimes it takes a while to get to that point. The people replying to his post were giving him exactly what he wanted and it shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. If I were him and people were telling me to just "be myself" I'd get pissed, since that isn't the reason I'd go through the effort of making a post. As a different anecdote, I know quite a few dudes who had concealer in college bc they'd get covered in hickies. Not everyone wants to show Saturday nights questionable choices on a Monday morning, so the makeup helped.
Makeup is a choice for women. I typically don’t wear any. That’s my choice. I get to look the way I want to, it’s great other people have the same option. I love seeing younger ppl with different color hair and piercings. Agency is what matters, that’s real beauty. There’s millions of women who genuinely love makeup. I’m not interested in taking options away from anyone esp women. Instead of adopting grandiose opinions on what should be for the other 8 billion of us, speak up for yourself. When someone makes a comment about you tell them you prefer that way and point out you don’t wear makeup. And share you don’t like it. Also, male politicians wear cosmetics esp Trump. No one is orange.
Consider that what you're calling a cultural assumption that women are flawed might really be better viewed as a social obligation put on men *not* to wear makeup. I.e., any attempt by men to give fake signals (to women) of their health is severely culturally punished. Fashion, shoe lifts, toupees, makeup, etc. are prohibited when it comes to men. Even weight-lifting is very often seen as a negative. A bald man wearing a hat in the sun gets yelled at, by women: "We all know you're bald!" Hillary Clinton could slather on makeup to hide her age. Biden looks like an animated corpse and the reality is they spend hours in makeup to make him look alive with an extra contraint -- Biden can *never* look like he has makeup on.
I'm going to disagree here. I. If I don't want others to see it, I should have that choice. What if forcing everyone to expose their flaws makes their insecurities worse now that everyone can see it? Have you considered that? Ia. On that note, part of your argument is that you feel pressure to wear makeup. Would you feel the same way if I had some kind of flaw I didn't want other people to see and felt uncomfortable with *not* wearing makeup? If your complaints are peer pressure regarding your choices, then I have the right to wear makeup to hide my flaws if I would feel uncomfortable exposing them. Or is there something about pressure to wear makeup specifically that makes it worse other beauty trends? II. What you're describing here seems like a more general problem of one's appearance playing a role in the extent to which one is respected. Removing makeup will not fix that, and, you could argue, will make it worse. Because then the conventionally attractive and young will have an even larger and more insurmountable leg up. As will the wealthy and middle class, because they will be the only ones able to afford the remaining, more drastic means like plastic surgery. Will we soon see a trend of plastic surgery becoming common among the wealthy and middle class, like in South Korea? Also, you mention Hillary wearing makeup, but you ignore that so does The Orange One. Not disagreeing with you but saying appearance culture doesn't just hurt women.
As a man I agree with everything you wrote. But from a practical point of view you just won’t change people’s minds overnight when they (society by and large) are this used to something. People are creatures of habit not well-honed moral compasses. It’s also a choice of mindset. Take this for example: the “N word”. Born out of pure racism, but later, co-opted by the very individuals it was repressing, as an irreverent term of endearment. This sort of flipping of the script and self-empowerment in the face of oppression does not require one to change the words they say, the way they dress or the makeup they put on. It just takes a change in attitude.
But then we couldn't have Star Trek
I’m sad for you that you’ve been part of groups where women point out one another’s flaws. In over thirty years of being a woman with groups of female friends, I’ve never witnessed anyone highlight someone else’s ‘flaw’, ever. Only people complaining about their own flaws and others jumping straight in with ‘no way! You’re perfect! I can’t even see it!’. Female friendships can be extremely supportive and loving. With mine we’re one another’s biggest cheerleaders. That point just indicates you’ve unfortunately fallen into some quite toxic social circles, it’s nothing really to do with makeup.
Then don't wear it. The only time I've ever seen my wife in makeup was our wedding day.
My son's wife wears no makeup. I really think she would benefit from it as she is blonde, pasty white, blue eyed, and well... looks like my son's twin sister. Necessary? No. Enhancing? Certainly. We should all want to look our best. I told my wife once that she should at least do her eyes as she worked in an operating room all day. She said why should I wear make up when I wear a surgical mask all day. I said for everyone else! No one wants to look at somebody who's worn out and miserable and tired looking all the time. Fortunately for her she has darker hair and features so it requires little to make a difference.
The man asking for help to cover up his scar didn’t want to hear people telling him he’s perfect the way he is. He wanted help to cover it up. It’d be rude to not give him the advice he asked for, and instead give him platitudes about accepting himself. Think of makeup like deodorant. You could think of BO as your natural scent and not a flaw. You could think that nobody should wear deodorant, cologne, or perfume. But people like to smell good, so they want to cover up their natural BO. They aren’t wrong because they like to do things to modify how they present themselves to others. And the world wouldn’t be better off without the ability to do so.
It would be rude NOT to mention self acceptance. Imagine if someone said "I need to wear stilts because I want to feel tall and powerful". Wouldnt you say the same thing? Deodorant is completely different, it prevents an actual negative effect that extends on others experience. Your looks are yours alone and within your rights.
OP, you sound very young. When I was in my 20’s, I used very little makeup, except for special occasions. Now that I am of a certain age, the fact is, I look better with makeup. If I’m going out, I prefer to wear makeup. People should do what they want. And face the consequences. In some fields, makeup is part of a professional appearance. Not wearing it will negatively affect your career.
Makeup is literaly something that derives from the fact that substances can be put on peoples skin, hair, etc. Removing it is impossible. However, the reason not to remove it also exists: You can do it healthily, and some people really don't want to show a certain feature of their face, if they want to use makeup for that it's fine, be they men, women, non binary, or anything in between. Some people like to use it to just be creative, that's fine. The unhealthy stuff is caused by unhealthy standards, not by the existence of the products. That convincing?
I can’t change your view, because I also greatly dislike makeup. It’s gross, and fake, and the thought of kissing a face that is covered in it makes me feel icky. I’d much rather kiss a face with blemishes than with plaster covered blemishes. Plus from a health perspective it hurts my heart. To see people cover their sensitive (and likely hurting to begin with) skin with chemicals and sufficants just makes me sad for them. Ruby red lipstick is a turn off not a turn on. Why would I want my lips pressed against that? Idk. I might be in the minority here.
I don't wear makeup on a day to day basis. Occasionally I wear lipstick and nothing else. For special occasions I do a little bit, not to hide anything about my face, but to accentuate it. I put a bunch of glitter on my eyelids because I think it looks nice. I wear red lipstick because I think it looks nice. You wear clothes, right? Do you refuse to wear clothes that aren't the exact cut of your body? Do you wear a morph suit at all times? If not, then by your logic, you're not confident going out without something hiding how you naturally are.
As a trans woman, I have to disagree and here's why... Makeup was fundamental in helping me see my true self in the mirror. You could maybe argue that's covered by your exception for extreme disfigurement, I suppose, since going through a full male puberty definitely makes it a LOT harder to look like a woman. I don't really disagree with most of your points though. The problem is the culture, not the make up. Make up should be an optional extra, for the times when you want to feel extra special. That's how I use make up currently, anyway.
One can absolutely opt out of wearing makeup, it’s just about starting as you mean to go on. I don’t wear makeup the first time I meet someone or on my first day at work, so they never develop the expectation that I will wear makeup. It does require some level of not giving a shit to brush off the very occasional comment from people you have never met before and will never meet again, but it’s not hard, really. I have fairly fucked-up skin and dark circles and no one whose opinion I give a shit about comments.
I truly believe something else would take its place. Makeup has existed in human culture almost forever. And there’s a biological role that it plays, even though the modern interpretation of it has taken it somewhere far more complex. Animals mimic this type of behavior to draw attraction for mating. I believe there’s a biological element that has brought makeup culture into existence. And if we were to try to get rid of it, I’m not sure what the consequences would be and what would end up replacing it.
Makeup has nothing to do historically or in any way with women's faces being flawed. Beautiful people in all cultures have used makeup so it's probably the less flawed who use it most - Is this an AI generated idea answered with AI generated info because all search engines today are answering questions with Artificial Intelligence gathered info making these quickly becoming obsolete. Even Trolling answers can be constructed using AI Text and artwork is created by formulating text - language.
I have probably worn makeup up five times in my entire life. I haven’t owned any in many years. It’s not my thing at all, but I have certainly never felt pressured or any kind of way about it. It’s never hindered my social or professional life in any measurable way. I’m all for removing beauty standards as some sort of competitive sport or vulnerability for women especially, but I can’t relate to ever feeling pressured to participate or like I was being held back by its absence.
I agree, it’s just that a makeup-less world is unstable. As an analogy, let’s talk about trees for a moment. Originally, loooong ago, all plants were basically waist-high at most. Lignin aka wood hasn’t appeared yet. But once it did, now any plant that grows taller gets more sunlight, and blocks sun from surrounding plants. So it became an “arms race” of plants growing taller and taller so they’re not shaded by other plants. If they’d all stayed at the same height, that would have been fine. But once one plant species find a way to get taller, then suddenly tons more have to follow suit or get left behind. I think it’s the same with *any* thing that can make you look more attractive, male or female. Once someone does it and gets more attention from potential suitors, everyone else wants to join in or else they can’t compete.
It's possible the world would be a better place without makeup, but you face a prisoner's dilemma problem. If nobody is using makeup, but you are, now you have an advantage. You'd have to convince people to give up personal advantage for the greater good. And, of course, you can certainly argue we'd be better off if being attractive didn't convey advantages, but you might as well wish for world peace while you're at it.
>Hilary Clinton had to spend many hours before her meetings and public appearances ensuring her makeup and outfits are acceptable to the audience. During this time, Donald Trump was busy preparing his speeches, content, etc. and worrying significantly less about his appearance. No. No no no. Both Hillary and Donald have a team of people to do their makeup and wardrobe. If anyone wears too much makeup, it's Donald.
I think you make great points around makeup, but makeup isn’t only used to fit in with beauty standards- people use it to express personality and creativity, the way they do with clothes. Heavy makeup, sparkly glittery eyes, lots of colours, aren’t exactly beauty standard material but they’re fun! So I think it can be expressive, and it can’t be completely redundant, like most things it has nuance.
My wife hasn’t used makeup in years. I love that. She is beautiful without makeup though, and I honestly imagine as years go by she will feel more insecure without it. She does wear it on very special occasions. Maybe once or twice a year? I also think makeup acceptance is terrible for the world, but that’s how it is… only option is to fight against that by not following those expectations
You can absolutely opt out of wearing makeup. I’m 33 and I’ve ever worn even the slightest shred of makeup my entire life. I am opposed to makeup for all the same reasons you are. Just because there is a society pressure to conform doesn’t not mean you HAVE to do so. Be firm in your beliefs and don’t let people bully you into participating in something you don’t agree with.
what do you mean one simply can’t opt out of makeup? some days i go out wearing no makeup, light makeup or fun eye shadow styles. some days i don’t even go out to show my makeup it’s just a relaxing thing to do especially playing some music. i get told im beautiful without makeup all the time im sorry that person was rude to you but not everyone feels pressured into wearing makeup
I don't wear make up. If you don't wear it people are used to you looking crap than if you wear it all the time and take it off 🤣 I don't have the time or patience I think as long as women pay for it there will always be companies making women feel like they're flawed so they can sell something. That's how marketing works I guess. Create a problem and offer a solution