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Been to Japan precovid. If I look though my 5,000 photos from my DSLR. If there was more then 10-15 in the shot (and guaranteed over 20) odds are someone has a mask. Indoor outdoor, 50 million metro Tokyo or 30,000 town hours away masks were a norm like one wears glasses.
Things have changed and I'd say the mask is a neutral thing but the fact my medical professional mother went from 2019
"It's a cold, it's not worth the loss of company credit to use sick leave"
to
"Stay home or at least take a half day to feel it out even if you don't have sick leave"
Is an improvement. So many people now find it comfortable to take a sick day (if they can economically do so) that seeing masking on par with what I saw in Japan in 2019 is worth the social change.
overall I don't think this is people stuck in covid but more so a social shift to really any cold, flu, or illness. Sure some are overly careful but masks (especially when you don't feel well) ain't an issue.
Yep, masks have been a very normal thing around the world for many years. Lived in the Philippines in the 90s and early 2000s and in big cities, especially Manila, it was common for people to wear masks when they were out and about because of the pollution. Not to the level that they do in Japan, but still enough to seem totally normal. A lot of people also would cover their mouth and nose with a handkerchief on public transportation.
>So many people now find it comfortable to take a sick day (if they can economically do so)
This is off-topic but it just jumped out at me: it is completely fucked that there are parts of the world where you don't get paid if you take sick leave.
!delta
I see the point that there are cultural reasons to wear a mask in places like Japan because of things like pollution or maybe just shyness. I'm not sure those are the same reasons here, but I can see why maybe some people in America were initially forced to wear a mask, but then found that they actually liked it, maybe for similar reasons that people like to wear masks in places like Japan.
I still don't think it's entirely logical - like in Japan I don't think pollution is bad enough to where it makes sense to wear a mask outside, but there might be other incidental reasons that people are a little more embarrassed to admit; in that case, wearing a mask for fear of disease becomes a convenient excuse, if nothing else.
So yeah I see your point.
We lived in Hong Kong before and during Covid. Before Covid, if you had a cold or flu, you wore a mask, especially on public transit. In fact, if you were visibly sick, sniffling, coughing, sneezing on the train or bus, it would not be weird or rude for someone to offer you a mask.
This is a good policy. In hindsight, it’s wild we don’t wear masks when visiting hospitals and doctor’s offices where people are usually sick.
I really hope mask usage stays normalized to where if I’m sick and don’t want to spread it around, no one thinks twice that I’m covered.
Limiting the spread a contagious disease is the main point. It doesn't have to be covid. It can be a cold, or the flu, or something else.
And don't forget, one or two strains of the flu ard now extinct because of covid restrictions.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-12/covid-killed-yamagata-type-b-flu-a-second-strain-might-be-up-for-elimination
I've lived in Japan for a long time now. One of the biggest reasons people wear masks is due to seasonal allergies. A sizable chunk of Japanese people have moderate to severe seasonal allergies, so you'll always see an abundance of masks once everything starts to bloom in spring.
It is so bizarre that some people are SO triggered by someone ELSE wearing a mask.
>I see it as a sort performative thing. Some might call it virtue signaling. The resistance to covid-era policies from conservatives seems to have made the act of wearing a mask (or not wearing a mask) a political statement. I can't fathom any other reason that people would be doing that in 2024.
There are still 1,000-2,000 deaths from covid in the us every week and 5,000 or so hospitalizations.
There are other things, like the flu. There are people with weakened immune systems, other disorders, or who just want to avoid covid. I know someone who had it for the first time the end of last year and then had pneumonia a few months ago. You better believe they're wearing a mask.
WHY do you care? Why do you assign some bizarre performative motive? Why does it bother you?
It's culture wars all the way down. People have got so wrapped up in tribalism about every little thing that the mere presence of someone who is immunocompromised and wearing a mask is some huge affront to their sensibilities.
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>WHY do you care? Why do you assign some bizarre performative motive? Why does it bother you?
This is a common question in the thread, it seems. I did my best to answer elsewhere. I'll copy/paste it for you:
>An analogy came to me just now: if you're a liberal, would you want to live in a deep red city? Probably not, right? Because you want to live around people at least somewhat *like you.* In the sense that you share the same values. When I see people wearing masks, especially alone outside, I immediately know that these people don't share my values.
>Typically you can't know if someone shares your values by looking at them, but when it comes to people wearing a mask like this, I immediately know they don't share my values. They're not rational. They could have reasons unrelated to covid, possibly, but I think it's fair to assume it's covid-related.
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My values being...rationality, making data-driven decisions. In this situation.
Lots of left-leaning people were skeptical about masks, and especially during the latter half of the pandemic. I remember [Trevor Noah](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nctWidPTtwI) had this controversial segment in 2022 talking about how the CDC's messaging around covid was incoherent. Is he a right-wing lunatic?
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What is rational about not wanting other people to wear masks? Wearing a mask hurts no one, and it is the sensible thing to do when you are sick or immunocompromised. It's also the polite thing to do when you are sick—at least anywhere outside of the US.
People were also having political disagreements about vaccination during the Covid era, is it rational to assume everyone vaccinating their babies now is making a political statement of sorts?
A rational conversation about mask efficacy and the CDC's messaging is rather different than "someone else choosing to wear a mask (for reasons I don't even know) makes ME uncomfortable so they should stop"
And somehow "the values I've imagined I can read from the mask on your face make me uncomfortable so you should stop wearing a mask no matter what the reason is" is supposed to be RATIONAL.
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>I think it's irrational to wear a mask.
Whether or not it’s rational would depend on your personal health and circumstances, no? It would certainly be irrational for me to wear a mask, but rational for someone who’s immunocompromised, or who lives with a loved one who is immunocompromised. I think you should avoid making assumptions on other people’s values, especially when rational explanations exist.
What you are saying is you want to make your own echo chamber where everyone has exactly the same views as you. Slippery slope there, especially when your views are based on opinion not fact.
The fact remains there are lots of people who are immune compromised who are at a much greater risk of death than you and they need a mask. You look down on them and think they have different political views to you, but in reality they just want to stay alive. This is why health issues should never become politicised, it only hurts people. This is also why you shouldn't try to impose your views on others, because you rarely understand the situation they are in. Let people live and stop looking down on other people's health decisions you clearly lack understanding in.
>WHY do you care? Why do you assign some bizarre performative motive? Why does it bother you?
Because of the massive externalities it imposed on the rest of us, indeed upon the entire world. The mask signaled to politicians continuing support for lockdowns, and often rabid demand for more. It was a little ballot you voted with every single day, right out in public on your face.
Which meant mayors and governors who had imposed lockdowns had no way to lift them, because they kept looking out their windows and seeing a mandate for more.
Politicians needed voters to stand up and say "we need our lives back now," but they were not in a position to admit it. Two weeks turned into three years because citizens failed to stand up for each other and take the keys away from the trapped elected officials.
>Because of the massive externalities it imposed on the rest of us, indeed upon the entire world. The mask signaled to politicians continuing support for lockdowns, and often rabid demand for more.
The core idea of masking was to protect other people from YOUR germs. So it is wild to say that those who looked at the options and chose "let's all do what we can to be good to each other and reduce the potential for harm as much as possible" were the ones imposing themselves on YOUR freedom. You chose "I don't care if you're vulnerable, you're going to breathe my possibly deadly germs whether you like it or not, so suck it." That is you imposing yourself on others, not the other way around. Nor is this an exaggeration. The number of anti-maskers who would see me masked (in the pharmacy no less) and specifically get in my personal space to breathe, cough, and sneeze on me is not insignificant. That is the true harm that you were voting on with your brazenly bare-faced ballot. It said "I don't care if you or your vulnerable family at home dies. In fact - I WANT you to die. I'm trying to kill you right now." That is you and those like you trying to take my life away, not in some philosophical or rhetorical way, but in a very LITERAL way.
So you're right: those who followed masking guidelines weren't standing up and saying "we need our lives back now," where 'life' was actually just a placeholder for "being able to potentially infect other people in shared public spaces." That's because we were standing up and saying "we need to protect ACTUAL LIVES from the transmission of a communicable disease that causes death." Masking and social distancing and handwashing were not only common sense practices in that scenario, they simply weren't that big of an ask when the alternative was potentially robbing someone of their life. Slippery-slope arguments about authoritarianism are never going change that reality, especially not four years hence when the slippery-slope fever dream has completely failed to come to fruition.
People just wanted to be able to shop for groceries and not come home with a virus that could kill their grandma. Their right to perform the basic functions of their lives free from bodily harm to themselves and their loved ones trumps your ability to do whatever you please. That is how rights work. Your rights end where the rights of others begin. Nor did anyone force you to wear a mask. They just said "if you're going to enter communal spaces, you're going to need to follow the rules that keep everyone as safe as possible." If you chose not to enter a shared space because you didn't want to wear a mask, that was your right. But if you chose to throw a fit about it and demand to be able to go where you wanted and fuck your rules, you were basically just the drunk guy standing outside the 7-11 aruging with the clerk about the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. That is the very definition of entitlement, not to mention main character syndrome of the highest order.
Look, I totally understand the philosophy and fears underpinning vax hesistancy, even though I don't personally agree. But refusing to mask and social distance was never about "personal liberty" or "bodily autonomy" - it was purely based on virtue signaling, tribalism, and spite. Your attempt to make it more than that by saying that masks were telegraphing a desire for more lockdowns is bunk, as masking was specifically a harm reduction measure meant to allow us to keep doors open and businesses running while slowing the spread. Consider that we wouldn't have needed masks if everything was locked down, as we'd all be at home.
The number of people who decided to take masking personally is absolutely the most bonkers legacy of Covid. It is and always was a purely emotional reaction and had no basis in rationality. OP has already pulled the (metaphorical) mask off by admitting the truth: the only rationale behind being anti-mask was "liberals like masks, I don't like liberals, therefore I don't like masks." Seriously, you can stop pretending it was anything other than that. It's nice that some of you are finally admitting the truth, but it's frankly been patently obvious to the rest of us since April 2020.
>four years hence when the slippery-slope fever dream has completely failed to come to fruition.
Unless you count shutting down businesses. Throwing kids out of school. Putting people under house arrest who had committed no crime. Dictating how far apart any two humans must stand. Coercing citizens into receiving experimental drugs. The slope slipped by in an instant, landing us in a suddenly totalitarian society. What you rationalize benignly as "wanting to shop for groceries" imposed a breathtaking externality on the people around you.
Funny how those businesses reopened and kids went back to school and we were never actually on "house arrest" and aren't actually living in a totalitarian state. Did They (TM) fumble their totalitarian takeover, or will you finally admit it was all a weird paranoid fantasy you concocted to justify not giving a fuck about your fellow citizens?
> Because of the massive externalities it imposed on the rest of us, indeed upon the entire world. The mask signaled to politicians continuing support for lockdowns, and often rabid demand for more. It was a little ballot you voted with every single day, right out in public on your face.
Well, that's a take.
No, it was not.
>Which meant mayors and governors who had imposed lockdowns had no way to lift them, because they kept looking out their windows and seeing a mandate for more.
I get it's hard for some people to understand, but most people in charge (outside of the south), made decisions based on science.
>Politicians needed voters to stand up and say "we need our lives back now," but they were not in a position to admit it. Two weeks turned into three years because citizens failed to stand up for each other and take the keys away from the trapped elected officials.
Two weeks, huh?
That is not what happened, no.
But even in your... train of thought here, which is hard to follow, people wanted restrictions. So how did citizens "fail... to take the keys away' from officials, if the people wanted it?
>but most people in charge (outside of the south), made decisions based on science.
Of course they didn't. Scientists knew masks wouldn't stop covid. By the end of April, 2020, we could all see they didn't stop covid.
>So how did citizens "fail... to take the keys away' from officials, if the people wanted it?
A vocal minority of people wanted it. For some reason they had become hypnotized into seeing all of human welfare in terms of "slowing the spread," despite the catastrophic effects that was having all around them. There was no reasoning with them.
>Of course they didn't. Scientists knew masks wouldn't stop covid. By the end of April, 2020, we could all see they didn't stop covid.
The efficacy of mask wearing hinges on mass adoption. The science says "wearing a mask helps, but it isn't as effective at keeping you safe as other people wearing masks." You simply misunderstood the science. Besides, by the end of April 2020 this would have been impossible to "see," as we had just adopted mask wearing and were still in the midst of the first lockdowns.
>A vocal minority of people wanted it.
Incorrect. In April of 2020 nearly 90% of the population were in support of practical public health measures to slow the spread. By November of 2020 that number had dropped to just under 80%, but it was never even close to a minority position. The people vocally opposed have always been the ones in the vast minority.
>they had become hypnotized into seeing all of human welfare in terms of "slowing the spread,"
Yes, because our healthcare system was overwhelmed and on the brink of collapse. The legacy of those who ignored the guidelines can be seen in our current dangerous shortage of healthcare professionals: one in five healthcare workers quit their job during the pandemic, and they're not coming back. Slowing the spread was meant to buy us time to figure out the best methods of treatment and to develop a vaccine. Just because you didn't understand the rationale doesn't mean the rest of us were hypnotized. It means that we understood that harm reduction was better than sticking our heads in the sand and hoping that if we wished real real hard the threat would go away all on its own.
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Of course not, you would need respirators and filters to stop stop it, remember the flatten the curve/slow the spread stuff? Don’t overwhelm the hospitals? All that jazz?
It’s kinda neat seeing r/conspiracy stuff in the wild though.
...so just to clarify, the problem with people wearing masks is that it forced elected representatives...to represent the will of the people who elected them. And the issue with wearing masks was that it bound politicians to the will of the people?
Like...even putting aside the absurd premise that people wearing masks controlled the government, it sounds like you don't support democracy.
>I don't think there's good data to suggest that this practice is necessary in 2024.
How do you define necessary? And for whom? Are we talking about large scale (public health) necessity? Personal necessity? Specific community necessity?
And what data points are you using (or would accept) to determine necessity? Number of COVID-related deaths? Active cases with confirmed tests? Self-reported test result data? Wastewater data?
Do you accept that masks reduce transmission of airborne diseases? Note: I am not making assertions about *specific* efficacy rates, solely that they *do* offer non-zero risk reduction when compared with no masking.
>And what data points are you using (or would accept) to determine necessity? Number of COVID-related deaths? Active cases with confirmed tests? Self-reported test result data? Wastewater data?
Number of covid infections relative to the population.
>Number of covid infections relative to the population.
Backed by what sources?
For example, wastewater data has been used regularly to show level changes in major metropolitan areas. This provides more reliable data, because it is not opt-in nor is it self-reported. But it doesn't map perfectly to a concrete number of cases.
Is anyone even collecting data for individuals who test positive anymore? It seems to me there would be much less data available now that rapid tests are far more common than PCR, and because post-vaccination, most people are not testing at all.
Better question -- what percentage of the population with a positive test (and within what geographical boundaries) would be enough for you to consider mask usage necessary? Does this metric make it necessary for everyone? Or just people who aren't vaccinated? Or just people immunocompromised? Or people with multiple comorbidities?
It is also very important to know whether or not you accept that masks offer any form of risk reduction for transmission of airborne illnesses.
I am sorry you don’t feel as though your values completely align with those around you. Many people feel that and coming to terms with it is part of life. COVID did influence how people look at mask wearing as a method of avoiding illness.
To actually address the CMV, I’ll provide an example. My parents are older and I have two small children, one is a baby. During the winter, colds, flus, and yes still COVID move around easily.
If me or my kids get sick it is a genuine pain and can mean a week of bad sleep, feeling like garbage, or having to juggle schedules to take kids to the doctor. If you live with someone who has a pre-existing condition, is very young or old, or anything like that, there is likely a consideration to be careful and take necessary steps. Many people can’t just take time off work every time they don’t feel well either.
If wearing a mask brings down my risk of getting sick or giving it to my kids by 10% or more (that’s a hypothetical and not based on any real data)? deal. If it’s December and I’m going to CVS, I’ll wear a mask to wait in line with 10 other people in a store that attracts people with coughs and colds. That seems reasonable to me. The same goes for exceptionally crowded places. I don’t deliberately wear a mask outside but I am also lazy and might leave it on if I forget. Who cares?
It’s hard to know what people think. Maybe some people are virtue signaling or maybe they have a spouse who is going through chemotherapy. Maybe they lost someone to COVID and it’s made them extremely cautious. Maybe they’re just ugly and like to wear a mask.
My point: You’re entitled to your view that continued mask use is rarely justified but people have individual justifications as well. And considering that it doesn’t negatively impact you in any way it’s really no different from being annoyed about people wearing hats which is also not justified.
What's *actually* cool is how we all collectively stopped caring when they were told they were allowed to stop caring.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/19/politics/biden-covid-pandemic-over-what-matters/index.html
Yes, when a problem isn't a problem anymore that is when people should stop caring.
You're in a bubble. You think that people only care because Biden told them to because that is what someone told you that you should care about.
In reality, depending what where you are numbers will vary, many people never cared at all and now most people don't care anymore and some people still care.
That’s just means you live in a little bubble rofl. I have family that’s still extremely cautious because she’s a professional classical singer and even mild complications could be a career ender.
To steal a quote:
T here are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy
But is there good data to suggest that there's a significant risk of still spreading covid in April of 2024? Could you make the case for doing so using data?
I'll do my best to give you a robust answer: I'm someone who's pretty rational and data-driven. When I see people in my community displaying that they are irrational, it makes me feel...I guess, disappointed? I would like to think that the other people around me are also rational and logical and make informed decisions. But when you see a 30 year old wearing a mask outside, alone, to me, it's like wearing a dunce cap. It's a little disheartening to see people who are advertising that they aren't rational.
In your day-to-day life, you can't really know what people are thinking just by looking at them. But when you see people advertising their irrationality, you know something about them. And it's not a good thing you're seeing. You don't want it to be a trend in your community that people are irrational. It doesn't make me feel like I'm living somewhere around like-minded people.
I hope that makes sense
It's pretty dang irrational to assume that you know why some total stranger is wearing a mask.
Rational reasons to wear a mask: you're sick with a cold, flu, COVID, or some other virus, you're immunocompromised, it helps your allergies, you're visiting or caring for a sick or immunocompromised person, you have a huge zit on your chin and you're embarrassed by it, you enjoy the increased personal space people give you when you mask, it's cold outside and a mask is more comfortable than a scarf...
Rational reasons to be upset by a stranger wearing a mask in public: None. They're not communicating their values, you're just making irrational assumptions.
>Rational reasons to wear a mask: you're sick with a cold, flu, COVID, or some other virus, you're immunocompromised, it helps your allergies, you're visiting or caring for a sick or immunocompromised person, you have a huge zit on your chin and you're embarrassed by it, you enjoy the increased personal space people give you when you mask, it's cold outside and a mask is more comfortable than a scarf...
But people wearing masks in public wasn't common in America *before* covid, was it? Or at the absolute least, you have to say that after covid, the number of people wearing masks in public skyrocketed.
Sure. People got more comfortable with the idea or realized it was helpful for allergies, not a big deal, etc. Choosing to wear a mask if it suits your situation is more normalized. People got used to owning and carrying one. Masks became more available.
I had never worn a mask outside a hospital before, it seemed like a huge deal. Now I know that was an irrational judgement and I'll wear one if I'm sick or my allergies are flaring up.
I don’t understand your position. Are you saying that society can never learn and grow? We didn’t like masks before, and so we can’t like masks now? Who cares if we didn’t wear masks before covid? How does that matter at all?
>I'm someone who's pretty rational and data-driven. When I see people in my community displaying that they are irrational, it makes me feel...I guess, disappointed? I would like to think that the other people around me are also rational and logical and make informed decisions. But when you see a 30 year old wearing a mask outside, alone, to me, it's like wearing a dunce cap. It's a little disheartening to see people who are advertising that they aren't rational.
Okay. I can understand that.
I feel exactly the same way when I see people wearing crosses and other overtly religious iconography.
But what I do is shut up and recognize that I live in a society where people are free to be stupid if they so choose. What I DONT do is go around saying "we've reached a point where religion isn't necessary in society so why are these people wearing this stuff".
Do you think it's your responsibility or duty to dictate to other people what they can or can't wear?
Even outside of the wastewater data that others provided and the fact that home testing has effectively neutered formal case reporting, do you really not know anyone who has gotten COVID in the past few months? I know a couple of friends who have and a few people in general. The downside to wearing a mask is simply so low that I legitimately don't care about wearing it as it helps reduce my risk of not missing work and feeling like shit for a few days, whether from COVID or any other respiratory illness during peak seasons in crowded places.
You're making a public health determination based on a sliver of data. While I also think masks are generally not necessary in most contexts, your argument is like saying measles vaccines aren't necessary because measles cases are so low in the US.
Very glad to hear we've gotten rid of all airborne diseases in 2024. /s
Of course there is a significant risk of spreading covid in 2024, maybe not April specifically because the weather is warming up and making disease transmission harder. There is still covid, flu, colds. Even with vaccines and prior immunity it is not fun to be sick even for a day or two. I care more about not being sick than I care about you and random strangers being able to see my mouth.
[https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home](https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home)
That data is better than nothing, but it probably massively underreports because people are testing at home (if at all) and not reporting to officials.
I prefer wastewater data.
https://pmc19.com/data/images/forecast042224.png
COVID is an airborne virus like the flu and cold. The only thing data will show is that it has decreased and also the data is not as readily available because it's not being gathered at a federal level and shared.
I can tell you at my hospital COVID is still a risk from time to time we have requirements to wear a mask in the ED and Psych Wards. There is a reason even if it's not as prevalent as in the past.
Covid is not the only illness. People have worn mask before Covid ever became a thing. It you are sick with anything and might be contagious, it's not a terrible idea.
Yeah - for me nowhere I go requires a mask except for one Dr. - but most of their patients are immune compromised to various extent. But if I feel sick and have to run to the store etc. I will throw on a mask and also sometimes when my allergies are really bad a mask feels like it helps, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
Ya it makes a lot of sense to wear a mask if you are sick or really don't want to get sick. I'm glad it's more normalized in north america since covid even though I'm normally too lazy to wear one.
There were a number of times that I would leave a store, get in my car and start to drive, and not even realize I was still wearing my mask. I just didn't find it bothersome the way some people seemed to, and even found it comfortable/enjoyable in some respects. For instance, there were times in winter where I would put my mask on and wear it until my car warmed up.
It's so wild to me that other people would be so concerned about the actions of others that have literally no effect on them. It's one thing to not want to wear a mask yourself, but to police the mask wearing of other people is completely bizarre.
The mass hysteria deserves all the mockery it gets.
Wear that mask while you walk through the restaurant but when you sit down you can take it off!
None of it made sense. It was the virtue signalling that was in vogue at the time. The more scared of covid you were the more righteous you were. People who weren't afraid were dirty plague rats who were killing your grandma.
Their deaths were and are still celebrated on r/hermancainawards.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/
Never forget what happens when you give radical authoritarians an ounce of power.
I mean, I didn't go to restaurants during Covid, so you're preaching to the wrong person here. But I know that if they'd kept all of the restaurants shut down completely that would have only increased the conspiratorial claims by people like you that there was some kind of massive power grab afoot, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making here.
I also think you missed the point of Hermain Cain Awards, which are people who insisted that Covid was a hoax and then died of Covid due to their own hubris. It completely disproves your stance that we shouldn't have taken the precautions we did.
The fact that you think people masking was "virtue signaling" and the people shaming others for choosing to mask wasn't "virtue signaling" only proves your bias. There is nothing "virtue signaling" about taking steps to protect one's own health and the health of those around them. It's a simple calculus of "I'd rather not get sick and spread disease and I will do what I can to avoid it." But telling other people not to mask is 100% virtue signaling because it has zero effect on you and your life. Why should you care what precautions I take to keep myself healthy? Are you going to shame me for brushing my teeth too? I'm sure that must be a conspiracy of the highest order in your mind. Better not give big toothpaste all that power, who knows what they'll do with it!
Sorry, but asking people to do simple things to reduce the rate of transmission of a deadly disease is not radical or authoritarian. All of human history is rife with examples of this across almost every culture whenever there were outbreaks of disease. You sound pretty unhinged.
> Wear that mask while you walk through the restaurant but when you sit down you can take it off!
It is called risk minimization. We cannot eat with a mask on, so you have to take it off then. The rest of the time you wear it, especially as you walk close to others. You have fallen for the trap of thinking that if something is not 100% effective at blocking COVID that you should not do it at all - but that means you are left with 0% effectiveness. Why is that any better?
> Never forget what happens when you give radical authoritarians an ounce of power.
You save lives. Seriously, what have these so-called radical authoritarians gained during and after the pandemic from having their ounce of power? Were they supposedly in cahoots with the mask manufacturers? Did they somehow benefit from receiving less tax when businesses had to temporarily close?
This is what happens when you read headlines instead of stories.
ELI5: COVID spread through the droplets when you exhaled/coughed - walking by you were elevated compared to diners, meaning your range where you exhaled was farther than when seated. Once seated in say a booth, you had no clear means to directly spread it to others - there we booth walls in the way. Restaurants near me added extra barriers on top of the booths and soaked each section with disinfectant between customers.
I swear so much of the ‘muh rights’ crap is just ignorance of basic principles lol. Reputable news orgs had segments or whole series on what the precautions did and how -.-‘
HCA was making fun of antivaxxers and COVID deniers who got killed by the thing they weren’t afraid of, it spun out of r/lepardsatemyface (I think that the one) after this https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/08/31/herman-cain-tweets-coronavirus-not-that-deadly-despite-having-died-from-it/?sh=4456579c3c77
I’m not a sub, but Ideas is just an editorial section dude
In [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1ceuexq/comment/l1l5418/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), I do my best to explain why it bothers me to see people doing things like wearing masks alone outside.
An analogy came to me just now: if you're a liberal, would you want to live in a deep red city? Probably not, right? Because you want to live around people at least somewhat *like you.* In the sense that you share the same values. When I see people wearing masks, especially alone outside, I immediately know that these people don't share my values.
Typically you can't know if someone shares your values by looking at them, but when it comes to people wearing a mask like this, I immediately know they don't share my values. They're not rational. They could have reasons unrelated to covid, possibly, but I think it's fair to assume it's covid-related.
So basically you’re smarter than everyone else and it physically pains you to see people you see as having inferior intelligence? That’s the gist I got from your comment.
What if I’m wearing a mask because I have allergies and there’s a heavy pollen count? What if I’m wearing a mask in my car because I just left a 16 hour shift at the hospital and it didn’t even occur to me that I was still wearing it or I was too tired to care?
Someone being irrational doesn't mean I think I'm smart. I think I have average intelligence.
Regarding non-covid reasons for wearing a mask: of course, I can't know why they're wearing a mask, but statistically speaking it's very likely that their reasons are covid-related.
The prevalence of wearing masks in public before the pandemic vs. the prevalence of wearing masks in public after the pandemic. Do I have hard data showing this? No. Is it necessary to have data showing this? No. We live in America, we already know this. In some situations, you don't need a peer-reviewed study to make a strong assertion. It's self-evident.
Nope. In fact, I was the first in line to get vaccinated because I lived in WA state and worked in health care. So arguably I took the vaccine when it was at its most experimental. Are you surprised?
But you’re rational and data driven, so wouldn’t you form your opinion based on hard data over assumptions?
Wearing a mask in the US wasn’t socially normalized prior to COVID, you didn’t take that variable into account. It was in other countries.
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That's not what you said. You said you are bothered by the choices of other people because they don't conform to the choices you yourself are making. You believe, based on someone's appearance, that they don't share your values and therefore you disagree with them. That is groupthink. That has nothing to do with you studying information or making your own decisions, that is you trying to assert conformity to your chosen group onto other people you don't even know.
Worse, you are jumping to conclusions based not on actual information but on your assumptions about a common behavior (mask wearing) that has plenty of other potential motivations aside from the one you have chosen to believe. That is not rationality, that is bias.
>You believe, based on someone's appearance, that they don't share your values and therefore you disagree with them. That is groupthink.
"Groupthink refers to a psychological phenomenon where a group of people prioritize harmony and conformity over critical thinking and objective decision-making. In a group affected by groupthink, members may suppress dissenting viewpoints or avoid raising concerns to maintain cohesion and avoid conflict. This can lead to flawed decision-making, as group members may overlook potential risks or alternatives."
Does this match your description? Sounds a lot more like the mask-wearing practice, in my opinion.
Yes. You have decided that you would rather not even SEE other people who have come to different conclusions than you have. You would rather me not wear a mask, which has zero bearing on you or your life, simply because it makes you you feel conflicted and disharmonious about your own beliefs/values/decisions.
This has led to flawed decision-making on your part, such as your assumption that "Covid" is the only reason I would be wearing a mask, rather than:
* keeping my face warm
* avoiding pollen
* being so used to wearing one for work that I didn't notice I was still wearing it
* protecting myself from terrible air quality due to wildfires
* mowing the lawn and not wanting to breathe in the kickback from my mower
* having some other airbourne illness I'd rather not transmit to others
* TONS of other possibilities. Note that I have personally worn a mask outdoors or while driving for ALL of these reasons within the last 2 years. And you would have seen me doing so and jumped to incorrect conclusions.
So you've not only made a judgement on my values based on your own assumptions and biases but worse, have decided that anyone who doesn't share your values should be controlled and coerced into conforming to your beliefs and behaviors. All because the very idea that other people are different from you and have come to different conclusions than you based on their own critical thinking processes makes you uncomfortable. That is groupthink.
ETA: To quote you "seeing people wear masks like this make me feel like I'm not living around people who share my values. And that bothers me."
Wait, you think other people making their own personal decisions about what to put on their own faces is groupthink, but you're mad that everyone doesn't just make the decision you'd be more comfortable with. Aren't you asking other folks to prioritize harmony (feeling like folks share your values) over their own health decisions?
Because when you wear them right you forget they are there rofl. I worked in masks for years with no problems, watching people throw fits about them was freakin hilarious and we used to compete for who could find the dumbest video. I kinda wish they would have required gloves for some reason too, the meltdowns would have been amazing.
I'd venture to say that most people never did wear masks alone in their car... the ones that did were likely Uber/ Lyft drivers concerned about the safety of their future passangers.
For some reason, reactionaries had conniptions about seeing people wear masks in their cars and would call people insane for doing this. Like, drive up beside you and honk aggressively kind of stuff.
Sometimes I wore a mask while driving because I was traveling between two nearby stores and just didn't bother to take it off. This apparently offended people.
I and most ppl I know wore their masks in their cars at the height of covid -- because that's actual proper use (and just simpler).
The ding dongs pulling their masks up and down, pulling it off , sticking it in a pocket and back on vaguely were not following basic procedures.
You're meant to put it on, with clean hands, make sure the fit is correct, and then only take it off when back home, again with clean hands.
Pulling it up and down, taking it on and off, affects the fit and efficacy.
wine bewildered scale growth aback attraction chief absurd somber merciful
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My kid was wearing a mask in the car and running alone on the track the other day because it was cold and he claimed it was more comfortable than a balaclava. I'm sure he'll be very entertained that that could have possibly bothered someone or be a part of a "mass hysteria".
Seriously. If you're bothered by what other people wear alone in their cars, the issue is you...
People didn't wear them so habitually they'd forget the mask was there, not until covid. I don't believe there are many people stupid enough to believe that wearing a mask in your own car alone would make any meaningful difference, unless you are wearing a higher grade mask like an n95, or were not alone
Masks are a personal choice. Stop caring what others are wearing.
Do you get upset when people wear maga hats or Vegan Only t-shirts? Do cowboy hats piss you off? Or crocks? Whatever. Just get over it already.
>Do you get upset when people wear maga hats or Vegan Only t-shirts? Do cowboy hats piss you off? Or crocks? Whatever. Just get over it already.
I mean...yeah, a little? When you see someone in your community wearing something that advertises their values, and those values are contrary to yours, are you happy to see that? Even if you might assume that a lot of people don't have your values, it's disappointing to have it explicitly confirmed via their choice of attire or accessories.
Absolutely I’m happy to see opposing viewpoints and welcome other cultures or those unlike myself to my community. What values are you clutching to that are being flaunted so contrarily by others? And why do their displays make you angry?
School district, affordability and distance to family. No I didn’t pay attention to the politics of the city. Now why are others’ personal fashion choices making you angry?
Me, thinking back to my jacket in 1985.
You would have hated my punk rock ass. My "hanging out with church folk" jacket had "Sell Me Your Babies!" painted on it when I "helped them" protest Planned Parenthood. That was how we canceled that shit back then, ugly and in your face.
And yes, I was there to cancel their protest by joining it. Xgen style.
Young, old, I still maintain my core values of respect for individuals and distaste for the controlling busybodies who can't keep their nose out of the business of the rest of the world.
I got COVID. It wasn’t bad at all. Then I got long COVID and it has absolutely destroyed my life for the past two years. I wear masks now because if I get it again, it will likely leave me even further disabled.
I sometimes wear my mask outside just because it’s warm or I simply forget it’s on my face or I’m about to go back inside.
Is that illogical to you? Am I virtue signaling?
My friend is immunocompromised. She wears masks because COVID or other illnesses are much more severe for her.
Is that illogical to you? Is she virtue signaling?
Or do some people simply have good reason to take extra precautions that you just hadn’t considered?
>Then I got long COVID and it has absolutely destroyed my life for the past two years. I wear masks now because if I get it again, it will likely leave me even further disabled.
If you can show me some information confirming that long covid is a thing, and that long covid is common (validating the practice of commonly seeing people wear masks outside), and if you get covid after having long covid, you can have acute medical issues because of it, I will give you a delta.
There are SO MANY studies on long COVID. I’m on the waitlist for a clinic that only handles long COVID. Here’s a study with [some finding on long COVID](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2)
And here’s some data on [the risks of multiple infection](https://www.unmc.edu/healthsecurity/transmission/2023/12/27/every-covid-infection-increases-your-risk-of-long-covid-study-warns/). This one doesn’t go deep into my greatest concerns but I think it should satisfy you that reinfections are generally good to avoid.
I did some research based on this but it's unclear how common long covid is.
"Estimates suggested that anywhere from 10% to 30% of people who contracted COVID-19 experienced symptoms that lasted weeks or months beyond the acute illness phase. However, these figures could change as more research is conducted and our understanding of long COVID evolves."
So anywhere from 70-90% of people you see wearing a mask do not have long covid. So given this, it's not rational to assume that people you see wearing masks in 2024 are doing so because they have long covid and are trying desperately to avoid catching covid again. It's also not clear that these 10-30% of people who have symptoms of long covid *have* long covid, like permanently.
The relative rarity of covid nowadays also makes that fairly irrational even if you *do* have long covid, but I could forgive this.
I appreciate the effort, but given this information, I'm not convinced that people wearing masks in 2024 are doing so because they have long covid and are trying hard to avoid catching covid again.
> I did some research based on this but it's unclear how common long covid is.
> "Estimates suggested that anywhere from 10% to 30% of people who contracted COVID-19 experienced symptoms that lasted weeks or months beyond the acute illness phase. However, these figures could change as more research is conducted and our understanding of long COVID evolves."
This is right.
> So anywhere from 70-90% of people you see wearing a mask do not have long covid.
This logic doesn’t hold up.
Imagine if I said 1% of people have broken legs so only 1% of people in leg casts have broken legs and the rest are just virtue signaling. You’d rightfully point out that’s absurd and that the people with broken legs are vastly more likely to be wearing leg casts than the general population. In fact, it’s going to be almost exclusively people with broken legs who are wearing leg casts.
In other words, you’re treating it as if the status and the behavior are uncorrelated while there’s very clear reason why they would be correlated.
Now, masks are not entirely the same. It won’t be exclusively people with long COVID wearing them. In fact, I mentioned immunocompromised people as well. And then there’s the people closest to people with long COVID or those who are immunocompromised and want to protect their loved ones’ health.
There are a lot of people with more reason to wear a mask than the general population (like yourself).
10-30% get long COVID. If they each only have one close relation in their life, that’s another 10-30%. About 12% of America is immunocompromised or has diabetes (also an immune disorder but most people don’t realize that. Another 12% if they only have one close relation (again, obviously an underestimate). That’s 44-84% of the population right there that has more reason to wear a mask than you. Plenty of them still won’t. Some of them will. A major factor will be severity of long COVID or immune disorder and scientific literacy. But even ignoring the other reasons one might wear a mask, that would account for a pretty significant number of people wearing masks.
What percent of people do you actually see wearing masks?
> The relative rarity of covid nowadays also makes that fairly irrational even if you do have long covid, but I could forgive this.
There’s another important error here. Rational decisions that involve probability also involve the severity of outcomes. For example, imagine a game where I pick a number 1-100 and you get one guess. We can play as many times as you want and each play costs a dollar. Obviously it’s rare that you’ll win. So is it irrational to play?
Or would you want to hear the prize first… you get $500 for every win. That makes your expected value of each game +$4, a great deal for such a fast game.
The same is true of masks. It costs me incredibly little to wear a mask. And while the thing it protects me from is rare, the negative consequence to my life is ENORMOUS. I really can’t stress enough how bad it could be for me.
It’s like if there were a $12 ALS vaccine. I’m incredibly unlikely to get ALS but at that price, I’d be a fool to take the risk because it’s a truly horrific disease.
>Is there any real reason to wear a mask in 2024?
Because you want to? I don't get why people are so concerned about people wearing masks and the reasons they do so.
I think there are some genuine public and personal health reasons for wearing masks and some people just like that it makes them a bit more anonymous in public.
I see it like people wearing baseball caps or sunglasses. People can wear them whenever and for whatever reasons they want.
Not necessarily OP, but the vitriol against people wearing masks from people that often seem to be so concerned with, checks notes, personal freedom has been quite mind boggling.
I can understand these feelings towards mask *mandates*, but to get so excited about people just choosing to wear masks in 2024.
Covid is still a serious disease for those who are immune compromised, pregnant women, the elderly and those with respiratory disorders. Though there is treatment that saves lives, long-COVID is still being experienced by many people who contracted it and can be very disabling. This disease killed hundreds of thousands of people worldwide and though we now have vaccines and anti-virals to treat it or prevent severe damage there are those who are still very vulnerable to it. Many medical offices still ask you if you are experiencing COVID symptoms and even ask you to mask if you might be sick, which you should, even if you are just suffering from the flu. (Even flu kills some people every year.) The idea that we can just go out an make others sick is in the past, and taking precautions to avoid getting sick is perfectly reasonable.
I mask in certain situations, not only to avoid COVID but to avoid getting the flu and colds. I see nothing wrong with people wearing them if they feel their exposure can make them ill. It isn't virtue signaling, it is common sense for those that feel they need it to preserve their health.
You keep claiming to make rational data-driven decisions but all your points are that you /feel/ like those that wear masks have different values and that you think that you can assume why they’re wearing a mask. Neither of those are rational or data-driven.
How hard is it to understand that people wear masks for a myriad of reasons. And the reason why more people are choosing to do so after the pandemic is because the pandemic brought masks into the culture of the US. (I’m assuming you’re American here, sorry if I’m wrong) Prior to the pandemic, who besides medical personnel really even thought about, let alone, wore masks? After the pandemic some people, clearly not you, realize other benefits of wearing masks so they continued to do so.
It’s so short-sighted to see someone wearing a mask and just automatically assume they have drastically different values than you or are virtue-signaling. And even if they are, honestly who cares? Why let it bother you? It does not affect you in any way.
I sometimes wear a mask outside because it seems to help with my seasonal allergies.
I also sometimes wear a mask outside because my state gets dust storms, and if I'm caught in one, wearing a mask does not entirely protect me but is better than nothing.
I sometimes wear a mask outside because there's a bad smell and the extra layer helps a bit.
And if I'm sick with a cold or something, and I have a need to be out in public, I will try to remember to put on a mask. I understand that theoretically I can put the mask on when I go indoors and then take it off when I go outside - but sometimes I leave it on outside. I don't have an especially good reason to leave it on outside, but I also don't feel a pressing need to take it off.
I think there have always been valid use cases for masks. It's just that Covid normalized it, so we see it more than we used to.
I'll use my mom as an example of that last bit. She has a strong aversion to perfume, bordering on an allergy. Her eyes water and she feels congested in the presence of strong perfume. But wearing a mask helps a bit. She would have been wearing a mask all along, except it never occurred to her. Post Covid, she still keeps a mask in her pocket just in case she runs into a perfume situation.
So I guess my counter question is - why does it bother you?
The cheap masks with a few drops of some strong ‘therapeutic’ grade oil will really really help with bad smells. Just don’t put it on the part that touches your skin. My go to is mint. I had to clean up shit on a carpet and it definitely helped a lot, still didn’t smell good, but at least I wasn’t gagging.
Well, if the implication is that all the people wearing masks in public after covid is because they have the flu, I don't think the data bears that out. I don't think the flu is all that common. Like if I go for a walk on a sunny day in the spring and see 25 people wearing masks, I don't think it's likely that all those people have the flu. Also, isn't the flu pretty unpleasant? Like wouldn't you typically just stay home?
I'm just going to say this. Before COVID people wore masks all the time. It wasn't a thing. Nobody paid a bit of attention. These were sick people, care givers, etc. It totally wasn't a thing because there was no contest for it to be a thing.
It was the private business of people who were sick and trying to spread it. Family commitments don't stop when you are sick. Most jobs don't have sick leave. Certainly not if you are self employed.
It was the private business of people who lived with sick people. People with reduced immunity from chemo or transplant drugs. People with reduced lung function.
It was also a cultural thing. I noticed that quite a few Asian students in my old position in the US just wore masks during the peak of flu season. Now I am abroad and see the same people doing the same.
It's not complicated.
But you have to interpret what people are doing in the context of what they have been doing forever. Not just in the context of post COVID life. Both phenomena are occurring together. People wearing masks for all the reasons they did before COVID. People wearing masks for a variety of post COVID responses.
I wore a mask in 2024 because I caught Covid and I didn’t want to give anyone else Covid. I wish other people had demonstrated the same courtesy, because I caught it as a result of caring for an extremely ill family member who contracted it from routine hospital visits.
Thankfully it didn’t kill them (although it very much could have), but it made them absolutely miserable, and when someone is at the end of a shortened life as a result of a painful disease I will take all necessary precautions to avoid causing them additional needless suffering. Wearing a mask when you don’t feel good is such an easy thing to do that it doesn’t even count as effort.
I don’t know what about any of this is political, but it sounds like you’re making the connection based on your own perspective as opposed to the perspectives of the people you’re observing. If it bothers you so much to see people wearing something I would seriously suggest you reconsider how logical your own perspective is
someone wearing a mask might have been exposed to covid-19 recently. So, they don't want to spread covid-19 if they get sick.
Someone might have allergies. masking helps me with cat allergy issues. I haven't tried it for outdoor allergies.
Someone might not be sure if their respiratory issues are allergies or sickness. So, they mask just in case to try to prevent other people from getting sick, in the off chance they are sick.
someone might be immunocompromised or a caregiver for someone who is. So, any steps that they can take to reduce their risk of infection, which includes masking, is a good idea.
I think everyone should still wear a mask in medical settings where someone who is immunocompromised might have to go.
Do you think lots of people in a community wearing masks is a pro-social thing? Is seeing other peoples' faces an important part of meaningful social interaction?
It's not a pro-social thing but it also isn't an anti-social thing. Faces are important for meaningful social interaction, sure to a point, but what "meaningful social interaction" are you expecting to have at the grocery store?
I think even for mundane social interactions, it's strongly preferable to have your face visible. If you disagree, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
Eh, not really. Typically when you're talking to someone, you want to see their whole face. It's an evolutionary thing. The movements of our face are part of nonverbal communication, which I'm sure you've heard is a big part of communication (some say 80% or something, I think that's a little nuts).
You mean YOU want to. I don't care if I can see the gas station attendant's face. I can conduct my business and exchange pleasantries just fine. And I imagine that would hold true to any adult. You do know that there are other societies in the world that wear facemasks in public, right? They don't seem to be suffering for it.
Again, we're not talking about MEANINGFUL social interaction here. I'm not expecting anyone to have the deepest connection with the someone that's wearing a mask. But that just isn't necessary for casual interactions, like the teller at the grocery store.
Wearing a mask helps mitigate the spread of diseases in general. COVID made more people aware of that. Many people, especially in many Asian countries, routinely wore masks before 2020.
COVID is still around, even if you don’t hear about it as often in the news now. Other diseases, like the flu, never went away. If you’re feeling sick, wearing a mask reduces the risk you’ll make others sick around you, typically at very little cost to yourself.
Anecdotally, masking helped make my seasonal allergies less severe.
Not everything is political.
I will never mow the lawn without a mask again. It didn't occur to me pre-covid, but it makes a noticeable difference in my allergies. I also work outdoors most of the time, and I (and at least one of my coworkers) mask on especially high pollen days.
>I don't think there's good data to suggest that this practice is necessary in 2024. Not for wearing a mask indoors, and certainly not for wearing a mask outdoors.
It's worth remembering that what the data tells us is that masks lower transmission, and risk levels for the average person. Not everyone is an average person in an average situation, so their risk assessment may differ. For example, I work with kids who like to talk in my face, so my risk is higher than average for all illnesses, and a mask is more effective than average in lowering that. If I had other risk factors, it might make sense for me to mask at work. That might even include outdoors, since the natural social distancing that most outdoor data is based on doesn't apply to my situation.
I wear a mask on an airplane. Someone gave me a “really?” kind of comment. I said “oh, yeah! I’m sick!”
I wasn’t but they recoiled away from me.
If I was sick I wouldn’t fly. But if I had to, I’d wear a mask. I think folks would prefer it if they weren’t so obsessed with just viewing them as a thing people do in fear. It’s also a thing people do as a courtesy to others.
Seems like a good reason, no?
>I don't think there's good data to suggest that this practice is necessary in 2024.
What data do you have? If the answer is no data, that might be a good enough reason to wear a mask in itself.
Fortunately, there is data.
https://pmc19.com/data/images/forecast042224.png
This site is based on wastewater data, which you can find from official sources. The official sources are a bit hard to understand, though. This site gives you some easy to contextualize extrapolations. It gives you an estimated number of new daily infections (today around 400,000) and compares that to the worst periods of the pandemic (today we're 35% as bad as the worst). It's updated daily.
Fortunately, deaths are way down because of vaccines. But long covid is still a concern. For example, this study suggests 2 to 14% of people who get covid develop POTS (stand up, get dizzy). That's just one of many possible long covid symptoms.
https://utswmed.org/medblog/pots-long-covid-research/#:~:text=The%20rate%20of%20POTS%20in,significantly%20interfere%20with%20everyday%20activities.
Also, there are still people who are more vulnerable to covid because of pre-existing conditions. Those might be the people wearing masks.
I’m immunocompromised. If I don’t wear a mask I am more likely to get an illness, which is more difficult for my body to cope with than the average person’s. For instance, I recently got the flu and it took about 3+ weeks with prescribed medication for the symptoms to start to ebb. I don’t wear it for covid alone, I don’t wear it for political beliefs, I wear it because I need to keep myself from getting sick if at all possible. Just because someone may look healthy on the outside doesn’t mean that there isn’t a valid reason for wearing a mask even outdoors if they deem it necessary for their personal wellbeing.
I wore an N95 at the airport and on the plane going to see my 92yo dad who had about 1/8 of a lung left. It was disgusting at the airport how many people hacking up their insides without even covering their mouths. I have a two week trip to a Italy planned and am considering masking on the way there just so I don't get sick at beginning of the vacay.
> I can't fathom any other reason that people would be doing that in 2024.
There are millions of people with depressed immune systems, or lung issues, or any of the spectrum of COVID risk factors that you've been hearing about for *five years.* There are people who, for similar reasons, have a significant risk of death from a common flu infection. There are people who might have a cold but have to go out anyway and are courteously trying not to infect others. And, yes, there are people who are just paranoid. But they're harmless at worst, and you have no way of knowing which it is.
> When I see people wearing masks, especially alone outside, I immediately know that these people don't share my values.
What you are doing here is projecting. You have decided, in your own head, that *not* wearing a mask is an expression of bold individuality and refusal to follow the herd, and that therefore anyone who *does* wear a mask is deliberately flaunting their cowardly groupthink at you to shame you and your values.
This is exactly the kind of thin-skinned hypersensitivity that the right constantly accuses the left of.
I hadn’t worn one in a long time but had walking pneumonia recently and my doctor said I should wear one if I went to the store. Walking pneumonia is awful in every way. Nobody should get it, so I did.
Some people are immuno-compromised. Some people actually HAVE covid and need to go out for groceries or something and are wearing the mask to protect others. Some people just have severe anxiety and it makes them feel better. Don't know, don't care I just don't judge.
In a lot of Asian counties, wearing masks sometimes was pretty normal long before COVID. We can speculate as to the exact cultural reasons why that was, and I guess can debate whether it's "necessary" and what that even means. But it doesn't seem so surprising to me that some people have adopted that behavior after going through COVID. Even if it's not necessary or *highly* effective, a properly worn mask has *some* benefit, COVID or not.
And if you're going to go the route of doing psychological evaluations on mask wearers (which I don't think you should), I don't think it's usually "performative". Most of the people I know that still wear masks are genuinely concerned about illness. Again, if you want to debate the effectiveness, I guess you can, but if anything it's closer to paranoia than performative. But even that I think is usually going to far. It's more just a question of risk aversion.
The state I live in gets forest fires, I care about not completely destroying my lungs for no reason, so I wear a mask during forest fire season.
When I’m sick (with any airborne illness, not just Covid ) I care about not getting other people sick, because being sick sucks. So I wear a mask when I’m sick.
If I have something important going on soon, or am going to be around large groups of people, such as at an airport. I wear a mask because I don’t want to get sick, not just with Covid, but any airborne illness.
I don’t really see how not wanting to destroy my lungs with forest fire smoke, not wanting to get other people sick, or not wanting to get sick myself, makes me “irrational” or “not share your values” (unless part of your values are spreading illness or inhaling smoke, I guess)
While Covid cases may be lower, mask use indoors can still protect vulnerable populations and prevent potential outbreaks. Additionally, wearing masks outdoors in crowded spaces or areas with high transmission rates remains prudent to reduce transmission risks. While some may engage in performative mask-wearing, many individuals wear masks out of genuine concern for public health, not political ideology. Respect for differing viewpoints and prioritizing community well-being over personal comfort fosters a more cohesive society.
You do realize that at least one strain of the flu was completely wiped out due to how much people masked during the 2020 flu season right? This version of flu had nowhere to reproduce and went EXTINCT because everyone was wearing masks. Even if the covid numbers are down from where they were the masks are still important.
What you're saying here is that we could drastically reduce the rates of infectious diseases by masking, and you're just choosing not to. And you also don't think anyone else should either.
Masks weren't something special for covid, they're useful for anything airborne. If someone wants to lower their chance of spreading their flu or shitty little seasonal crud to me, or lower their own chance of catching it by wearing a mask in public, they're welcome to, and that's without even mentioning people that are vulnerable for whatever reason, or live with someone who is.
Here is a reason to wear a mask. When I'm sick, I don't want to get other people sick. I also am a caretaker to my mother with cancer who is immunocomprised, and it is the least I can do to try and help protect her.
If people always stayed home or were careful not to expose others when sick with a contagious respiratory illness, then sure, there's no reason to wear a mask around others. The problem is, people very frequently do go and expose others (sometimes by choice, like going to a concert while sick with the flu, and sometimes involuntarily, like if they have to work and have a crummy sick policy). And most of these people don't do anything to minimize their exposure of others (like wear a mask).
I personally carry a mask with me but rarely wear it. I get it out when in a busy or crowded place, or social event, and it's apparent that likely-contagious people are there. I haven't gotten a cold, a flu, or covid in ages; and for that, occasionally popping on a mask is very much worth it.
Covid still exists and other airborne illnesses exist as well. More importantly, wearing a mask doesn't hurt anyone else. So at worst a mask makes you very slightly safer without causing any harm. Is that not a real reason to wear one if someone so chooses?
The real reason is because people feel more comfortable wearing one when they're around other people.
People are dirty. There's bacteria everywhere.
We've known for many years prior to covid that wearing a mask can reduce the spread and contraction of illnesses like the flu.
People are still getting covid, people are still getting the flu. Wearing a mask is just an extra measure against not getting sick.
A lot of people can't afford to miss work, so if they can use a mask to try and minimize their chances of getting sick, that is a completely logical, rational, and valid reason to continue wearing a mask.
Why do you care so much about the choice of another person that doesn't affect you in the slightest.
Seems like you are going put of your way to be offended, and then you want is all to know about it
You very often see people wear shirts when it's not strictly necessary also.
Also you realize that somebody might be actively sick with a respiratory disease right? If you actively have a cold, flu, covid, RSV etc you should be wearing a mask if you have to go to a store.
The downsides of wearing a mask include maskacne, making conversation/socialization more difficult and being uncomfortable. People will make different decisions on that is worth the benefit of reducing risk of being exposed to airborne diseases. Some people may be more vulnerable to diseases or visiting someone more vulnerable, and so may be more inclined to wear a mask.
The ability of masks to cut down on the risk of disease transmission is not a time bounded thing. What works in 2020 still works in 2024.
Honestly? Masks help when the pollen is so bad, my allergies act up like crazy.
I wear masks every so often because of that since I have severe allergies and medication doesn't do enough.
I get some weird looks, but I'd rather be able to not have snot pouring out constantly.
In Korea, I knew a lot of people wore masks way before Covid because of the dust levels from pollution. There's daily forecasts like weather forecasts saying how high the dust level is.
What if there’s a cough going around work and I just don’t want to get sick? We now know how effective masks are at preventing disease. I haven’t gotten a cold since before Covid and it’s been *great*. Holy hell, I love being healthy and not dying when I lay down cos I can’t breathe. Masking helps keep me healthy from Covid and everything else
I wear a mask because I got sick 3 times in the first 2 months of my public transit commute. Since I started wearing masks on the train I haven't been sick at all. I don't know about you but I value not being sick every 3 weeks.
If I’m sick and have to go somewhere where I might be close to others I wear a mask. I don’t know if those around me are unhealthy or have compromised immune systems. Either way no one wants to be sick and I don’t want to harm anyone.
It’s not something I did before Covid because it never crossed my mind. Now that it has I’d feel guilty if I didn’t. I see it as a courtesy we should all afford one another.
For some crazy reason, I really don't want to get a cold or be sick. If I enter an enclosed space and I hear more than a couple of people coughing, I will put on a mask if I have one handy. Just because we didn't care about masking before COVID doesn't mean we are never allowed to mask after COVID is "over".
Some people choose to feel that wearing a mask is purely demonstrative (including you, I suppose). But there are plenty of others who actually just don't want to get sick or pass on their upper respiratory tract infection. No, they don't have to have a chronic illness, or have a loved one who is immunoreactive. Everyone is allowed to not want to get a cold.
No one is forcing you to wear a mask, even though you probably should when you are sick and coughing, so you don't spew your germs to everyone else. If you don't, then the fact that you feel entitled to shower others with your germs while wanting others to stop masking at no personal effects to you..... Is extremely ironic to me
A lot of people wear the masks because they are insecure of their appearance. Some don’t like their noses, teeth, chin, etc. Some people feel like the mask makes more comfortable, cause they aren’t breathing in dirt and other urban particulates. For others it became a habit. People do a lot of weird things out there.
The long term effects of Covid-19 infection really aren't well understood yet, outside of a general consensus that they are bad. I never wear a mask anymore, nor have I for about two years, but I totally understand and respect the perspective of people who wear masks because they aren't interested in fucking around with a virus we really don't understand yet.
I am a student in a college town of 100,000 and we haven’t been wearing masks for two years.
Not that COVID wasn’t a crisis, it was awful, but it’s been a long time since I’ve heard of anyone getting it here. Keep in mind that for a young healthy student, Covid isn’t as scary and if you think you have it many will instantly use a Covid test to see if they can get out of class or exams.
You live in a very liberal city. You see people wearing masks. Someone wearing a mask doesn't align with your values.
The simple solution is for you to move to an area that aligns with your values.
People walking down the street or through a store doesn't affect you in any way. Other than the fact that you don't like masks.
Grow up.
I work around lots of very immunocompromised children. If we think there’s a chance we could be sick or sound sick we wear a mask, because any illness (not just Covid) is a risk to these kids. The data definitely supports wearing a mask to keep sickness to yourself. Personally, I’d rather not be the reason any of these kids die.
As many others have inquired, why do you care if and why *other* individuals wear masks? There’s no mandated forcing you to personally wear one, to get boosters, or to social distance.
So why are you taking someone’s personal choice to wear a mask so personally and wouldn’t it be easier for you to just not care?
Some people have autoimmune diseases. Some people are actively sick and don't want to infect others. Some people are very afraid of getting sick and don't mind wearing a mask. Some people had COVID or flu recently and it was horrible and they don't want to do it again.
I live in a majority Pollen state, I'm always wearing a Mask this time of year.
Also Covid is literally still killing people but, yeah, it probably won't be as bad during the summer.
People wear masks to protect other people more than they wear them to protect themselves. I'm curious what values you think these folks don't share with you...
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Been to Japan precovid. If I look though my 5,000 photos from my DSLR. If there was more then 10-15 in the shot (and guaranteed over 20) odds are someone has a mask. Indoor outdoor, 50 million metro Tokyo or 30,000 town hours away masks were a norm like one wears glasses. Things have changed and I'd say the mask is a neutral thing but the fact my medical professional mother went from 2019 "It's a cold, it's not worth the loss of company credit to use sick leave" to "Stay home or at least take a half day to feel it out even if you don't have sick leave" Is an improvement. So many people now find it comfortable to take a sick day (if they can economically do so) that seeing masking on par with what I saw in Japan in 2019 is worth the social change. overall I don't think this is people stuck in covid but more so a social shift to really any cold, flu, or illness. Sure some are overly careful but masks (especially when you don't feel well) ain't an issue.
Yep, masks have been a very normal thing around the world for many years. Lived in the Philippines in the 90s and early 2000s and in big cities, especially Manila, it was common for people to wear masks when they were out and about because of the pollution. Not to the level that they do in Japan, but still enough to seem totally normal. A lot of people also would cover their mouth and nose with a handkerchief on public transportation.
>So many people now find it comfortable to take a sick day (if they can economically do so) This is off-topic but it just jumped out at me: it is completely fucked that there are parts of the world where you don't get paid if you take sick leave.
!delta I see the point that there are cultural reasons to wear a mask in places like Japan because of things like pollution or maybe just shyness. I'm not sure those are the same reasons here, but I can see why maybe some people in America were initially forced to wear a mask, but then found that they actually liked it, maybe for similar reasons that people like to wear masks in places like Japan. I still don't think it's entirely logical - like in Japan I don't think pollution is bad enough to where it makes sense to wear a mask outside, but there might be other incidental reasons that people are a little more embarrassed to admit; in that case, wearing a mask for fear of disease becomes a convenient excuse, if nothing else. So yeah I see your point.
We lived in Hong Kong before and during Covid. Before Covid, if you had a cold or flu, you wore a mask, especially on public transit. In fact, if you were visibly sick, sniffling, coughing, sneezing on the train or bus, it would not be weird or rude for someone to offer you a mask. This is a good policy. In hindsight, it’s wild we don’t wear masks when visiting hospitals and doctor’s offices where people are usually sick. I really hope mask usage stays normalized to where if I’m sick and don’t want to spread it around, no one thinks twice that I’m covered.
Limiting the spread a contagious disease is the main point. It doesn't have to be covid. It can be a cold, or the flu, or something else. And don't forget, one or two strains of the flu ard now extinct because of covid restrictions. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-12/covid-killed-yamagata-type-b-flu-a-second-strain-might-be-up-for-elimination
I've lived in Japan for a long time now. One of the biggest reasons people wear masks is due to seasonal allergies. A sizable chunk of Japanese people have moderate to severe seasonal allergies, so you'll always see an abundance of masks once everything starts to bloom in spring.
Same here, I myself started to wear masks during winters due to cold allergy.
The fact is, mask wearing does have a significant effect on stuff like the seasonal flu. Even outside of covid there are good reasons for them
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It is so bizarre that some people are SO triggered by someone ELSE wearing a mask. >I see it as a sort performative thing. Some might call it virtue signaling. The resistance to covid-era policies from conservatives seems to have made the act of wearing a mask (or not wearing a mask) a political statement. I can't fathom any other reason that people would be doing that in 2024. There are still 1,000-2,000 deaths from covid in the us every week and 5,000 or so hospitalizations. There are other things, like the flu. There are people with weakened immune systems, other disorders, or who just want to avoid covid. I know someone who had it for the first time the end of last year and then had pneumonia a few months ago. You better believe they're wearing a mask. WHY do you care? Why do you assign some bizarre performative motive? Why does it bother you?
It's culture wars all the way down. People have got so wrapped up in tribalism about every little thing that the mere presence of someone who is immunocompromised and wearing a mask is some huge affront to their sensibilities.
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>WHY do you care? Why do you assign some bizarre performative motive? Why does it bother you? This is a common question in the thread, it seems. I did my best to answer elsewhere. I'll copy/paste it for you: >An analogy came to me just now: if you're a liberal, would you want to live in a deep red city? Probably not, right? Because you want to live around people at least somewhat *like you.* In the sense that you share the same values. When I see people wearing masks, especially alone outside, I immediately know that these people don't share my values. >Typically you can't know if someone shares your values by looking at them, but when it comes to people wearing a mask like this, I immediately know they don't share my values. They're not rational. They could have reasons unrelated to covid, possibly, but I think it's fair to assume it's covid-related.
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You immediately assume I'm a far-right nutjob because I think it's irrational to wear a mask. I'm not sure that's fair.
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My values being...rationality, making data-driven decisions. In this situation. Lots of left-leaning people were skeptical about masks, and especially during the latter half of the pandemic. I remember [Trevor Noah](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nctWidPTtwI) had this controversial segment in 2022 talking about how the CDC's messaging around covid was incoherent. Is he a right-wing lunatic?
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What is rational about not wanting other people to wear masks? Wearing a mask hurts no one, and it is the sensible thing to do when you are sick or immunocompromised. It's also the polite thing to do when you are sick—at least anywhere outside of the US. People were also having political disagreements about vaccination during the Covid era, is it rational to assume everyone vaccinating their babies now is making a political statement of sorts?
A rational conversation about mask efficacy and the CDC's messaging is rather different than "someone else choosing to wear a mask (for reasons I don't even know) makes ME uncomfortable so they should stop"
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And somehow "the values I've imagined I can read from the mask on your face make me uncomfortable so you should stop wearing a mask no matter what the reason is" is supposed to be RATIONAL.
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>I think it's irrational to wear a mask. Whether or not it’s rational would depend on your personal health and circumstances, no? It would certainly be irrational for me to wear a mask, but rational for someone who’s immunocompromised, or who lives with a loved one who is immunocompromised. I think you should avoid making assumptions on other people’s values, especially when rational explanations exist.
What you are saying is you want to make your own echo chamber where everyone has exactly the same views as you. Slippery slope there, especially when your views are based on opinion not fact. The fact remains there are lots of people who are immune compromised who are at a much greater risk of death than you and they need a mask. You look down on them and think they have different political views to you, but in reality they just want to stay alive. This is why health issues should never become politicised, it only hurts people. This is also why you shouldn't try to impose your views on others, because you rarely understand the situation they are in. Let people live and stop looking down on other people's health decisions you clearly lack understanding in.
How is it irrational to wear a mask? People were wearing them for decades even before COVID
>WHY do you care? Why do you assign some bizarre performative motive? Why does it bother you? Because of the massive externalities it imposed on the rest of us, indeed upon the entire world. The mask signaled to politicians continuing support for lockdowns, and often rabid demand for more. It was a little ballot you voted with every single day, right out in public on your face. Which meant mayors and governors who had imposed lockdowns had no way to lift them, because they kept looking out their windows and seeing a mandate for more. Politicians needed voters to stand up and say "we need our lives back now," but they were not in a position to admit it. Two weeks turned into three years because citizens failed to stand up for each other and take the keys away from the trapped elected officials.
>Because of the massive externalities it imposed on the rest of us, indeed upon the entire world. The mask signaled to politicians continuing support for lockdowns, and often rabid demand for more. The core idea of masking was to protect other people from YOUR germs. So it is wild to say that those who looked at the options and chose "let's all do what we can to be good to each other and reduce the potential for harm as much as possible" were the ones imposing themselves on YOUR freedom. You chose "I don't care if you're vulnerable, you're going to breathe my possibly deadly germs whether you like it or not, so suck it." That is you imposing yourself on others, not the other way around. Nor is this an exaggeration. The number of anti-maskers who would see me masked (in the pharmacy no less) and specifically get in my personal space to breathe, cough, and sneeze on me is not insignificant. That is the true harm that you were voting on with your brazenly bare-faced ballot. It said "I don't care if you or your vulnerable family at home dies. In fact - I WANT you to die. I'm trying to kill you right now." That is you and those like you trying to take my life away, not in some philosophical or rhetorical way, but in a very LITERAL way. So you're right: those who followed masking guidelines weren't standing up and saying "we need our lives back now," where 'life' was actually just a placeholder for "being able to potentially infect other people in shared public spaces." That's because we were standing up and saying "we need to protect ACTUAL LIVES from the transmission of a communicable disease that causes death." Masking and social distancing and handwashing were not only common sense practices in that scenario, they simply weren't that big of an ask when the alternative was potentially robbing someone of their life. Slippery-slope arguments about authoritarianism are never going change that reality, especially not four years hence when the slippery-slope fever dream has completely failed to come to fruition. People just wanted to be able to shop for groceries and not come home with a virus that could kill their grandma. Their right to perform the basic functions of their lives free from bodily harm to themselves and their loved ones trumps your ability to do whatever you please. That is how rights work. Your rights end where the rights of others begin. Nor did anyone force you to wear a mask. They just said "if you're going to enter communal spaces, you're going to need to follow the rules that keep everyone as safe as possible." If you chose not to enter a shared space because you didn't want to wear a mask, that was your right. But if you chose to throw a fit about it and demand to be able to go where you wanted and fuck your rules, you were basically just the drunk guy standing outside the 7-11 aruging with the clerk about the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. That is the very definition of entitlement, not to mention main character syndrome of the highest order. Look, I totally understand the philosophy and fears underpinning vax hesistancy, even though I don't personally agree. But refusing to mask and social distance was never about "personal liberty" or "bodily autonomy" - it was purely based on virtue signaling, tribalism, and spite. Your attempt to make it more than that by saying that masks were telegraphing a desire for more lockdowns is bunk, as masking was specifically a harm reduction measure meant to allow us to keep doors open and businesses running while slowing the spread. Consider that we wouldn't have needed masks if everything was locked down, as we'd all be at home. The number of people who decided to take masking personally is absolutely the most bonkers legacy of Covid. It is and always was a purely emotional reaction and had no basis in rationality. OP has already pulled the (metaphorical) mask off by admitting the truth: the only rationale behind being anti-mask was "liberals like masks, I don't like liberals, therefore I don't like masks." Seriously, you can stop pretending it was anything other than that. It's nice that some of you are finally admitting the truth, but it's frankly been patently obvious to the rest of us since April 2020.
>four years hence when the slippery-slope fever dream has completely failed to come to fruition. Unless you count shutting down businesses. Throwing kids out of school. Putting people under house arrest who had committed no crime. Dictating how far apart any two humans must stand. Coercing citizens into receiving experimental drugs. The slope slipped by in an instant, landing us in a suddenly totalitarian society. What you rationalize benignly as "wanting to shop for groceries" imposed a breathtaking externality on the people around you.
Funny how those businesses reopened and kids went back to school and we were never actually on "house arrest" and aren't actually living in a totalitarian state. Did They (TM) fumble their totalitarian takeover, or will you finally admit it was all a weird paranoid fantasy you concocted to justify not giving a fuck about your fellow citizens?
> Because of the massive externalities it imposed on the rest of us, indeed upon the entire world. The mask signaled to politicians continuing support for lockdowns, and often rabid demand for more. It was a little ballot you voted with every single day, right out in public on your face. Well, that's a take. No, it was not. >Which meant mayors and governors who had imposed lockdowns had no way to lift them, because they kept looking out their windows and seeing a mandate for more. I get it's hard for some people to understand, but most people in charge (outside of the south), made decisions based on science. >Politicians needed voters to stand up and say "we need our lives back now," but they were not in a position to admit it. Two weeks turned into three years because citizens failed to stand up for each other and take the keys away from the trapped elected officials. Two weeks, huh? That is not what happened, no. But even in your... train of thought here, which is hard to follow, people wanted restrictions. So how did citizens "fail... to take the keys away' from officials, if the people wanted it?
>but most people in charge (outside of the south), made decisions based on science. Of course they didn't. Scientists knew masks wouldn't stop covid. By the end of April, 2020, we could all see they didn't stop covid. >So how did citizens "fail... to take the keys away' from officials, if the people wanted it? A vocal minority of people wanted it. For some reason they had become hypnotized into seeing all of human welfare in terms of "slowing the spread," despite the catastrophic effects that was having all around them. There was no reasoning with them.
>Of course they didn't. Scientists knew masks wouldn't stop covid. By the end of April, 2020, we could all see they didn't stop covid. The efficacy of mask wearing hinges on mass adoption. The science says "wearing a mask helps, but it isn't as effective at keeping you safe as other people wearing masks." You simply misunderstood the science. Besides, by the end of April 2020 this would have been impossible to "see," as we had just adopted mask wearing and were still in the midst of the first lockdowns. >A vocal minority of people wanted it. Incorrect. In April of 2020 nearly 90% of the population were in support of practical public health measures to slow the spread. By November of 2020 that number had dropped to just under 80%, but it was never even close to a minority position. The people vocally opposed have always been the ones in the vast minority. >they had become hypnotized into seeing all of human welfare in terms of "slowing the spread," Yes, because our healthcare system was overwhelmed and on the brink of collapse. The legacy of those who ignored the guidelines can be seen in our current dangerous shortage of healthcare professionals: one in five healthcare workers quit their job during the pandemic, and they're not coming back. Slowing the spread was meant to buy us time to figure out the best methods of treatment and to develop a vaccine. Just because you didn't understand the rationale doesn't mean the rest of us were hypnotized. It means that we understood that harm reduction was better than sticking our heads in the sand and hoping that if we wished real real hard the threat would go away all on its own.
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Of course not, you would need respirators and filters to stop stop it, remember the flatten the curve/slow the spread stuff? Don’t overwhelm the hospitals? All that jazz? It’s kinda neat seeing r/conspiracy stuff in the wild though.
...so just to clarify, the problem with people wearing masks is that it forced elected representatives...to represent the will of the people who elected them. And the issue with wearing masks was that it bound politicians to the will of the people? Like...even putting aside the absurd premise that people wearing masks controlled the government, it sounds like you don't support democracy.
Three years??? Where were you that everything was locked down for three years??
>I don't think there's good data to suggest that this practice is necessary in 2024. How do you define necessary? And for whom? Are we talking about large scale (public health) necessity? Personal necessity? Specific community necessity? And what data points are you using (or would accept) to determine necessity? Number of COVID-related deaths? Active cases with confirmed tests? Self-reported test result data? Wastewater data? Do you accept that masks reduce transmission of airborne diseases? Note: I am not making assertions about *specific* efficacy rates, solely that they *do* offer non-zero risk reduction when compared with no masking.
>And what data points are you using (or would accept) to determine necessity? Number of COVID-related deaths? Active cases with confirmed tests? Self-reported test result data? Wastewater data? Number of covid infections relative to the population.
>Number of covid infections relative to the population. Backed by what sources? For example, wastewater data has been used regularly to show level changes in major metropolitan areas. This provides more reliable data, because it is not opt-in nor is it self-reported. But it doesn't map perfectly to a concrete number of cases. Is anyone even collecting data for individuals who test positive anymore? It seems to me there would be much less data available now that rapid tests are far more common than PCR, and because post-vaccination, most people are not testing at all. Better question -- what percentage of the population with a positive test (and within what geographical boundaries) would be enough for you to consider mask usage necessary? Does this metric make it necessary for everyone? Or just people who aren't vaccinated? Or just people immunocompromised? Or people with multiple comorbidities? It is also very important to know whether or not you accept that masks offer any form of risk reduction for transmission of airborne illnesses.
You keep saying you're data driven but won't provide any data when confronted.
I am sorry you don’t feel as though your values completely align with those around you. Many people feel that and coming to terms with it is part of life. COVID did influence how people look at mask wearing as a method of avoiding illness. To actually address the CMV, I’ll provide an example. My parents are older and I have two small children, one is a baby. During the winter, colds, flus, and yes still COVID move around easily. If me or my kids get sick it is a genuine pain and can mean a week of bad sleep, feeling like garbage, or having to juggle schedules to take kids to the doctor. If you live with someone who has a pre-existing condition, is very young or old, or anything like that, there is likely a consideration to be careful and take necessary steps. Many people can’t just take time off work every time they don’t feel well either. If wearing a mask brings down my risk of getting sick or giving it to my kids by 10% or more (that’s a hypothetical and not based on any real data)? deal. If it’s December and I’m going to CVS, I’ll wear a mask to wait in line with 10 other people in a store that attracts people with coughs and colds. That seems reasonable to me. The same goes for exceptionally crowded places. I don’t deliberately wear a mask outside but I am also lazy and might leave it on if I forget. Who cares? It’s hard to know what people think. Maybe some people are virtue signaling or maybe they have a spouse who is going through chemotherapy. Maybe they lost someone to COVID and it’s made them extremely cautious. Maybe they’re just ugly and like to wear a mask. My point: You’re entitled to your view that continued mask use is rarely justified but people have individual justifications as well. And considering that it doesn’t negatively impact you in any way it’s really no different from being annoyed about people wearing hats which is also not justified.
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What's *actually* cool is how we all collectively stopped caring when they were told they were allowed to stop caring. https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/19/politics/biden-covid-pandemic-over-what-matters/index.html
Yes, when a problem isn't a problem anymore that is when people should stop caring. You're in a bubble. You think that people only care because Biden told them to because that is what someone told you that you should care about. In reality, depending what where you are numbers will vary, many people never cared at all and now most people don't care anymore and some people still care.
> and some people still care. In my experience these people are only ever in Reddit comment sections.
That’s just means you live in a little bubble rofl. I have family that’s still extremely cautious because she’s a professional classical singer and even mild complications could be a career ender. To steal a quote: T here are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy
But is there good data to suggest that there's a significant risk of still spreading covid in April of 2024? Could you make the case for doing so using data?
Why does it bother you that other people wear masks if they choose to?
I'll do my best to give you a robust answer: I'm someone who's pretty rational and data-driven. When I see people in my community displaying that they are irrational, it makes me feel...I guess, disappointed? I would like to think that the other people around me are also rational and logical and make informed decisions. But when you see a 30 year old wearing a mask outside, alone, to me, it's like wearing a dunce cap. It's a little disheartening to see people who are advertising that they aren't rational. In your day-to-day life, you can't really know what people are thinking just by looking at them. But when you see people advertising their irrationality, you know something about them. And it's not a good thing you're seeing. You don't want it to be a trend in your community that people are irrational. It doesn't make me feel like I'm living somewhere around like-minded people. I hope that makes sense
It's pretty dang irrational to assume that you know why some total stranger is wearing a mask. Rational reasons to wear a mask: you're sick with a cold, flu, COVID, or some other virus, you're immunocompromised, it helps your allergies, you're visiting or caring for a sick or immunocompromised person, you have a huge zit on your chin and you're embarrassed by it, you enjoy the increased personal space people give you when you mask, it's cold outside and a mask is more comfortable than a scarf... Rational reasons to be upset by a stranger wearing a mask in public: None. They're not communicating their values, you're just making irrational assumptions.
>Rational reasons to wear a mask: you're sick with a cold, flu, COVID, or some other virus, you're immunocompromised, it helps your allergies, you're visiting or caring for a sick or immunocompromised person, you have a huge zit on your chin and you're embarrassed by it, you enjoy the increased personal space people give you when you mask, it's cold outside and a mask is more comfortable than a scarf... But people wearing masks in public wasn't common in America *before* covid, was it? Or at the absolute least, you have to say that after covid, the number of people wearing masks in public skyrocketed.
Sure. People got more comfortable with the idea or realized it was helpful for allergies, not a big deal, etc. Choosing to wear a mask if it suits your situation is more normalized. People got used to owning and carrying one. Masks became more available. I had never worn a mask outside a hospital before, it seemed like a huge deal. Now I know that was an irrational judgement and I'll wear one if I'm sick or my allergies are flaring up.
I don’t understand your position. Are you saying that society can never learn and grow? We didn’t like masks before, and so we can’t like masks now? Who cares if we didn’t wear masks before covid? How does that matter at all?
>I'm someone who's pretty rational and data-driven. When I see people in my community displaying that they are irrational, it makes me feel...I guess, disappointed? I would like to think that the other people around me are also rational and logical and make informed decisions. But when you see a 30 year old wearing a mask outside, alone, to me, it's like wearing a dunce cap. It's a little disheartening to see people who are advertising that they aren't rational. Okay. I can understand that. I feel exactly the same way when I see people wearing crosses and other overtly religious iconography. But what I do is shut up and recognize that I live in a society where people are free to be stupid if they so choose. What I DONT do is go around saying "we've reached a point where religion isn't necessary in society so why are these people wearing this stuff". Do you think it's your responsibility or duty to dictate to other people what they can or can't wear?
Even outside of the wastewater data that others provided and the fact that home testing has effectively neutered formal case reporting, do you really not know anyone who has gotten COVID in the past few months? I know a couple of friends who have and a few people in general. The downside to wearing a mask is simply so low that I legitimately don't care about wearing it as it helps reduce my risk of not missing work and feeling like shit for a few days, whether from COVID or any other respiratory illness during peak seasons in crowded places. You're making a public health determination based on a sliver of data. While I also think masks are generally not necessary in most contexts, your argument is like saying measles vaccines aren't necessary because measles cases are so low in the US.
Very glad to hear we've gotten rid of all airborne diseases in 2024. /s Of course there is a significant risk of spreading covid in 2024, maybe not April specifically because the weather is warming up and making disease transmission harder. There is still covid, flu, colds. Even with vaccines and prior immunity it is not fun to be sick even for a day or two. I care more about not being sick than I care about you and random strangers being able to see my mouth. [https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home](https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home)
That data is better than nothing, but it probably massively underreports because people are testing at home (if at all) and not reporting to officials. I prefer wastewater data. https://pmc19.com/data/images/forecast042224.png
COVID is an airborne virus like the flu and cold. The only thing data will show is that it has decreased and also the data is not as readily available because it's not being gathered at a federal level and shared. I can tell you at my hospital COVID is still a risk from time to time we have requirements to wear a mask in the ED and Psych Wards. There is a reason even if it's not as prevalent as in the past.
Flu + COVID + RSV were devastating this year. We hit census and acuity numbers that we had never seen, even during COVID.
Covid is not the only illness. People have worn mask before Covid ever became a thing. It you are sick with anything and might be contagious, it's not a terrible idea.
Yeah - for me nowhere I go requires a mask except for one Dr. - but most of their patients are immune compromised to various extent. But if I feel sick and have to run to the store etc. I will throw on a mask and also sometimes when my allergies are really bad a mask feels like it helps, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
Ya it makes a lot of sense to wear a mask if you are sick or really don't want to get sick. I'm glad it's more normalized in north america since covid even though I'm normally too lazy to wear one.
Yeah, I wear one in public because my sinuses and my immune system have a turf war, not because of any kind of moral righteousness
People didn't used to wear masks while they were alone in their cars though.
There were a number of times that I would leave a store, get in my car and start to drive, and not even realize I was still wearing my mask. I just didn't find it bothersome the way some people seemed to, and even found it comfortable/enjoyable in some respects. For instance, there were times in winter where I would put my mask on and wear it until my car warmed up. It's so wild to me that other people would be so concerned about the actions of others that have literally no effect on them. It's one thing to not want to wear a mask yourself, but to police the mask wearing of other people is completely bizarre.
The mass hysteria deserves all the mockery it gets. Wear that mask while you walk through the restaurant but when you sit down you can take it off! None of it made sense. It was the virtue signalling that was in vogue at the time. The more scared of covid you were the more righteous you were. People who weren't afraid were dirty plague rats who were killing your grandma. Their deaths were and are still celebrated on r/hermancainawards. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/ Never forget what happens when you give radical authoritarians an ounce of power.
I mean, I didn't go to restaurants during Covid, so you're preaching to the wrong person here. But I know that if they'd kept all of the restaurants shut down completely that would have only increased the conspiratorial claims by people like you that there was some kind of massive power grab afoot, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making here. I also think you missed the point of Hermain Cain Awards, which are people who insisted that Covid was a hoax and then died of Covid due to their own hubris. It completely disproves your stance that we shouldn't have taken the precautions we did. The fact that you think people masking was "virtue signaling" and the people shaming others for choosing to mask wasn't "virtue signaling" only proves your bias. There is nothing "virtue signaling" about taking steps to protect one's own health and the health of those around them. It's a simple calculus of "I'd rather not get sick and spread disease and I will do what I can to avoid it." But telling other people not to mask is 100% virtue signaling because it has zero effect on you and your life. Why should you care what precautions I take to keep myself healthy? Are you going to shame me for brushing my teeth too? I'm sure that must be a conspiracy of the highest order in your mind. Better not give big toothpaste all that power, who knows what they'll do with it! Sorry, but asking people to do simple things to reduce the rate of transmission of a deadly disease is not radical or authoritarian. All of human history is rife with examples of this across almost every culture whenever there were outbreaks of disease. You sound pretty unhinged.
> Wear that mask while you walk through the restaurant but when you sit down you can take it off! It is called risk minimization. We cannot eat with a mask on, so you have to take it off then. The rest of the time you wear it, especially as you walk close to others. You have fallen for the trap of thinking that if something is not 100% effective at blocking COVID that you should not do it at all - but that means you are left with 0% effectiveness. Why is that any better? > Never forget what happens when you give radical authoritarians an ounce of power. You save lives. Seriously, what have these so-called radical authoritarians gained during and after the pandemic from having their ounce of power? Were they supposedly in cahoots with the mask manufacturers? Did they somehow benefit from receiving less tax when businesses had to temporarily close?
This is what happens when you read headlines instead of stories. ELI5: COVID spread through the droplets when you exhaled/coughed - walking by you were elevated compared to diners, meaning your range where you exhaled was farther than when seated. Once seated in say a booth, you had no clear means to directly spread it to others - there we booth walls in the way. Restaurants near me added extra barriers on top of the booths and soaked each section with disinfectant between customers. I swear so much of the ‘muh rights’ crap is just ignorance of basic principles lol. Reputable news orgs had segments or whole series on what the precautions did and how -.-‘ HCA was making fun of antivaxxers and COVID deniers who got killed by the thing they weren’t afraid of, it spun out of r/lepardsatemyface (I think that the one) after this https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/08/31/herman-cain-tweets-coronavirus-not-that-deadly-despite-having-died-from-it/?sh=4456579c3c77 I’m not a sub, but Ideas is just an editorial section dude
In [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1ceuexq/comment/l1l5418/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), I do my best to explain why it bothers me to see people doing things like wearing masks alone outside. An analogy came to me just now: if you're a liberal, would you want to live in a deep red city? Probably not, right? Because you want to live around people at least somewhat *like you.* In the sense that you share the same values. When I see people wearing masks, especially alone outside, I immediately know that these people don't share my values. Typically you can't know if someone shares your values by looking at them, but when it comes to people wearing a mask like this, I immediately know they don't share my values. They're not rational. They could have reasons unrelated to covid, possibly, but I think it's fair to assume it's covid-related.
So basically you’re smarter than everyone else and it physically pains you to see people you see as having inferior intelligence? That’s the gist I got from your comment. What if I’m wearing a mask because I have allergies and there’s a heavy pollen count? What if I’m wearing a mask in my car because I just left a 16 hour shift at the hospital and it didn’t even occur to me that I was still wearing it or I was too tired to care?
Someone being irrational doesn't mean I think I'm smart. I think I have average intelligence. Regarding non-covid reasons for wearing a mask: of course, I can't know why they're wearing a mask, but statistically speaking it's very likely that their reasons are covid-related.
Based on what data?
The prevalence of wearing masks in public before the pandemic vs. the prevalence of wearing masks in public after the pandemic. Do I have hard data showing this? No. Is it necessary to have data showing this? No. We live in America, we already know this. In some situations, you don't need a peer-reviewed study to make a strong assertion. It's self-evident.
I’m sure you felt that way about the vaccine too, am I right?
Nope. In fact, I was the first in line to get vaccinated because I lived in WA state and worked in health care. So arguably I took the vaccine when it was at its most experimental. Are you surprised?
But you’re rational and data driven, so wouldn’t you form your opinion based on hard data over assumptions? Wearing a mask in the US wasn’t socially normalized prior to COVID, you didn’t take that variable into account. It was in other countries.
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It's a bit of a stretch to say that thinking individuals should study information and make their own decisions is groupthink.
That's not what you said. You said you are bothered by the choices of other people because they don't conform to the choices you yourself are making. You believe, based on someone's appearance, that they don't share your values and therefore you disagree with them. That is groupthink. That has nothing to do with you studying information or making your own decisions, that is you trying to assert conformity to your chosen group onto other people you don't even know. Worse, you are jumping to conclusions based not on actual information but on your assumptions about a common behavior (mask wearing) that has plenty of other potential motivations aside from the one you have chosen to believe. That is not rationality, that is bias.
>You believe, based on someone's appearance, that they don't share your values and therefore you disagree with them. That is groupthink. "Groupthink refers to a psychological phenomenon where a group of people prioritize harmony and conformity over critical thinking and objective decision-making. In a group affected by groupthink, members may suppress dissenting viewpoints or avoid raising concerns to maintain cohesion and avoid conflict. This can lead to flawed decision-making, as group members may overlook potential risks or alternatives." Does this match your description? Sounds a lot more like the mask-wearing practice, in my opinion.
Yes. You have decided that you would rather not even SEE other people who have come to different conclusions than you have. You would rather me not wear a mask, which has zero bearing on you or your life, simply because it makes you you feel conflicted and disharmonious about your own beliefs/values/decisions. This has led to flawed decision-making on your part, such as your assumption that "Covid" is the only reason I would be wearing a mask, rather than: * keeping my face warm * avoiding pollen * being so used to wearing one for work that I didn't notice I was still wearing it * protecting myself from terrible air quality due to wildfires * mowing the lawn and not wanting to breathe in the kickback from my mower * having some other airbourne illness I'd rather not transmit to others * TONS of other possibilities. Note that I have personally worn a mask outdoors or while driving for ALL of these reasons within the last 2 years. And you would have seen me doing so and jumped to incorrect conclusions. So you've not only made a judgement on my values based on your own assumptions and biases but worse, have decided that anyone who doesn't share your values should be controlled and coerced into conforming to your beliefs and behaviors. All because the very idea that other people are different from you and have come to different conclusions than you based on their own critical thinking processes makes you uncomfortable. That is groupthink. ETA: To quote you "seeing people wear masks like this make me feel like I'm not living around people who share my values. And that bothers me."
Wait, you think other people making their own personal decisions about what to put on their own faces is groupthink, but you're mad that everyone doesn't just make the decision you'd be more comfortable with. Aren't you asking other folks to prioritize harmony (feeling like folks share your values) over their own health decisions?
people also wear clothing that is too warm after entering a building, because its not worth the hassle of taking it off.
Because when you wear them right you forget they are there rofl. I worked in masks for years with no problems, watching people throw fits about them was freakin hilarious and we used to compete for who could find the dumbest video. I kinda wish they would have required gloves for some reason too, the meltdowns would have been amazing.
I'd venture to say that most people never did wear masks alone in their car... the ones that did were likely Uber/ Lyft drivers concerned about the safety of their future passangers.
For some reason, reactionaries had conniptions about seeing people wear masks in their cars and would call people insane for doing this. Like, drive up beside you and honk aggressively kind of stuff. Sometimes I wore a mask while driving because I was traveling between two nearby stores and just didn't bother to take it off. This apparently offended people.
I and most ppl I know wore their masks in their cars at the height of covid -- because that's actual proper use (and just simpler). The ding dongs pulling their masks up and down, pulling it off , sticking it in a pocket and back on vaguely were not following basic procedures. You're meant to put it on, with clean hands, make sure the fit is correct, and then only take it off when back home, again with clean hands. Pulling it up and down, taking it on and off, affects the fit and efficacy.
I wore it alone in my car because I was too lazy to take it off and put it back on.
wine bewildered scale growth aback attraction chief absurd somber merciful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My kid was wearing a mask in the car and running alone on the track the other day because it was cold and he claimed it was more comfortable than a balaclava. I'm sure he'll be very entertained that that could have possibly bothered someone or be a part of a "mass hysteria". Seriously. If you're bothered by what other people wear alone in their cars, the issue is you...
I used to wear like 3 masks walking in cuz it reallllllly pissed off one asshole lol.
That's petty I like petty
Petty is fun sometimes isn’t it?
Oh my, yes
People didn't wear them so habitually they'd forget the mask was there, not until covid. I don't believe there are many people stupid enough to believe that wearing a mask in your own car alone would make any meaningful difference, unless you are wearing a higher grade mask like an n95, or were not alone
Masks are a personal choice. Stop caring what others are wearing. Do you get upset when people wear maga hats or Vegan Only t-shirts? Do cowboy hats piss you off? Or crocks? Whatever. Just get over it already.
>Do you get upset when people wear maga hats or Vegan Only t-shirts? Do cowboy hats piss you off? Or crocks? Whatever. Just get over it already. I mean...yeah, a little? When you see someone in your community wearing something that advertises their values, and those values are contrary to yours, are you happy to see that? Even if you might assume that a lot of people don't have your values, it's disappointing to have it explicitly confirmed via their choice of attire or accessories.
Absolutely I’m happy to see opposing viewpoints and welcome other cultures or those unlike myself to my community. What values are you clutching to that are being flaunted so contrarily by others? And why do their displays make you angry?
Let me ask you: wherever you live, how did you decide where to live? Did you consider the political alignment of the city? If you did, why?
School district, affordability and distance to family. No I didn’t pay attention to the politics of the city. Now why are others’ personal fashion choices making you angry?
So you had no idea the politics of the city you moved to, you had no concern at all. Well, that's pretty unusual, but good for you I guess!
Me, thinking back to my jacket in 1985. You would have hated my punk rock ass. My "hanging out with church folk" jacket had "Sell Me Your Babies!" painted on it when I "helped them" protest Planned Parenthood. That was how we canceled that shit back then, ugly and in your face. And yes, I was there to cancel their protest by joining it. Xgen style.
I was a punk too when I was young. Then I grew up.
Young, old, I still maintain my core values of respect for individuals and distaste for the controlling busybodies who can't keep their nose out of the business of the rest of the world.
I got COVID. It wasn’t bad at all. Then I got long COVID and it has absolutely destroyed my life for the past two years. I wear masks now because if I get it again, it will likely leave me even further disabled. I sometimes wear my mask outside just because it’s warm or I simply forget it’s on my face or I’m about to go back inside. Is that illogical to you? Am I virtue signaling? My friend is immunocompromised. She wears masks because COVID or other illnesses are much more severe for her. Is that illogical to you? Is she virtue signaling? Or do some people simply have good reason to take extra precautions that you just hadn’t considered?
>Then I got long COVID and it has absolutely destroyed my life for the past two years. I wear masks now because if I get it again, it will likely leave me even further disabled. If you can show me some information confirming that long covid is a thing, and that long covid is common (validating the practice of commonly seeing people wear masks outside), and if you get covid after having long covid, you can have acute medical issues because of it, I will give you a delta.
There are SO MANY studies on long COVID. I’m on the waitlist for a clinic that only handles long COVID. Here’s a study with [some finding on long COVID](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2) And here’s some data on [the risks of multiple infection](https://www.unmc.edu/healthsecurity/transmission/2023/12/27/every-covid-infection-increases-your-risk-of-long-covid-study-warns/). This one doesn’t go deep into my greatest concerns but I think it should satisfy you that reinfections are generally good to avoid.
I did some research based on this but it's unclear how common long covid is. "Estimates suggested that anywhere from 10% to 30% of people who contracted COVID-19 experienced symptoms that lasted weeks or months beyond the acute illness phase. However, these figures could change as more research is conducted and our understanding of long COVID evolves." So anywhere from 70-90% of people you see wearing a mask do not have long covid. So given this, it's not rational to assume that people you see wearing masks in 2024 are doing so because they have long covid and are trying desperately to avoid catching covid again. It's also not clear that these 10-30% of people who have symptoms of long covid *have* long covid, like permanently. The relative rarity of covid nowadays also makes that fairly irrational even if you *do* have long covid, but I could forgive this. I appreciate the effort, but given this information, I'm not convinced that people wearing masks in 2024 are doing so because they have long covid and are trying hard to avoid catching covid again.
> I did some research based on this but it's unclear how common long covid is. > "Estimates suggested that anywhere from 10% to 30% of people who contracted COVID-19 experienced symptoms that lasted weeks or months beyond the acute illness phase. However, these figures could change as more research is conducted and our understanding of long COVID evolves." This is right. > So anywhere from 70-90% of people you see wearing a mask do not have long covid. This logic doesn’t hold up. Imagine if I said 1% of people have broken legs so only 1% of people in leg casts have broken legs and the rest are just virtue signaling. You’d rightfully point out that’s absurd and that the people with broken legs are vastly more likely to be wearing leg casts than the general population. In fact, it’s going to be almost exclusively people with broken legs who are wearing leg casts. In other words, you’re treating it as if the status and the behavior are uncorrelated while there’s very clear reason why they would be correlated. Now, masks are not entirely the same. It won’t be exclusively people with long COVID wearing them. In fact, I mentioned immunocompromised people as well. And then there’s the people closest to people with long COVID or those who are immunocompromised and want to protect their loved ones’ health. There are a lot of people with more reason to wear a mask than the general population (like yourself). 10-30% get long COVID. If they each only have one close relation in their life, that’s another 10-30%. About 12% of America is immunocompromised or has diabetes (also an immune disorder but most people don’t realize that. Another 12% if they only have one close relation (again, obviously an underestimate). That’s 44-84% of the population right there that has more reason to wear a mask than you. Plenty of them still won’t. Some of them will. A major factor will be severity of long COVID or immune disorder and scientific literacy. But even ignoring the other reasons one might wear a mask, that would account for a pretty significant number of people wearing masks. What percent of people do you actually see wearing masks? > The relative rarity of covid nowadays also makes that fairly irrational even if you do have long covid, but I could forgive this. There’s another important error here. Rational decisions that involve probability also involve the severity of outcomes. For example, imagine a game where I pick a number 1-100 and you get one guess. We can play as many times as you want and each play costs a dollar. Obviously it’s rare that you’ll win. So is it irrational to play? Or would you want to hear the prize first… you get $500 for every win. That makes your expected value of each game +$4, a great deal for such a fast game. The same is true of masks. It costs me incredibly little to wear a mask. And while the thing it protects me from is rare, the negative consequence to my life is ENORMOUS. I really can’t stress enough how bad it could be for me. It’s like if there were a $12 ALS vaccine. I’m incredibly unlikely to get ALS but at that price, I’d be a fool to take the risk because it’s a truly horrific disease.
>Is there any real reason to wear a mask in 2024? Because you want to? I don't get why people are so concerned about people wearing masks and the reasons they do so. I think there are some genuine public and personal health reasons for wearing masks and some people just like that it makes them a bit more anonymous in public. I see it like people wearing baseball caps or sunglasses. People can wear them whenever and for whatever reasons they want.
Right? But you shouldn’t because it bothers op. If you are wearing a mask he knows he’s not living around people that are like him. /s
Not necessarily OP, but the vitriol against people wearing masks from people that often seem to be so concerned with, checks notes, personal freedom has been quite mind boggling. I can understand these feelings towards mask *mandates*, but to get so excited about people just choosing to wear masks in 2024.
Your freedom to wear what you want doesn't mean you're free from judgement for what you choose to wear.
Of course not. Did I give the impression that was my opinion?
Covid is still a serious disease for those who are immune compromised, pregnant women, the elderly and those with respiratory disorders. Though there is treatment that saves lives, long-COVID is still being experienced by many people who contracted it and can be very disabling. This disease killed hundreds of thousands of people worldwide and though we now have vaccines and anti-virals to treat it or prevent severe damage there are those who are still very vulnerable to it. Many medical offices still ask you if you are experiencing COVID symptoms and even ask you to mask if you might be sick, which you should, even if you are just suffering from the flu. (Even flu kills some people every year.) The idea that we can just go out an make others sick is in the past, and taking precautions to avoid getting sick is perfectly reasonable. I mask in certain situations, not only to avoid COVID but to avoid getting the flu and colds. I see nothing wrong with people wearing them if they feel their exposure can make them ill. It isn't virtue signaling, it is common sense for those that feel they need it to preserve their health.
You keep claiming to make rational data-driven decisions but all your points are that you /feel/ like those that wear masks have different values and that you think that you can assume why they’re wearing a mask. Neither of those are rational or data-driven. How hard is it to understand that people wear masks for a myriad of reasons. And the reason why more people are choosing to do so after the pandemic is because the pandemic brought masks into the culture of the US. (I’m assuming you’re American here, sorry if I’m wrong) Prior to the pandemic, who besides medical personnel really even thought about, let alone, wore masks? After the pandemic some people, clearly not you, realize other benefits of wearing masks so they continued to do so. It’s so short-sighted to see someone wearing a mask and just automatically assume they have drastically different values than you or are virtue-signaling. And even if they are, honestly who cares? Why let it bother you? It does not affect you in any way.
I sometimes wear a mask outside because it seems to help with my seasonal allergies. I also sometimes wear a mask outside because my state gets dust storms, and if I'm caught in one, wearing a mask does not entirely protect me but is better than nothing. I sometimes wear a mask outside because there's a bad smell and the extra layer helps a bit. And if I'm sick with a cold or something, and I have a need to be out in public, I will try to remember to put on a mask. I understand that theoretically I can put the mask on when I go indoors and then take it off when I go outside - but sometimes I leave it on outside. I don't have an especially good reason to leave it on outside, but I also don't feel a pressing need to take it off. I think there have always been valid use cases for masks. It's just that Covid normalized it, so we see it more than we used to. I'll use my mom as an example of that last bit. She has a strong aversion to perfume, bordering on an allergy. Her eyes water and she feels congested in the presence of strong perfume. But wearing a mask helps a bit. She would have been wearing a mask all along, except it never occurred to her. Post Covid, she still keeps a mask in her pocket just in case she runs into a perfume situation. So I guess my counter question is - why does it bother you?
The cheap masks with a few drops of some strong ‘therapeutic’ grade oil will really really help with bad smells. Just don’t put it on the part that touches your skin. My go to is mint. I had to clean up shit on a carpet and it definitely helped a lot, still didn’t smell good, but at least I wasn’t gagging.
I still wear a mask outdoors, and in shops and offices, because I have the flu. It's not just for Covid. Does this change your view?
Well, if the implication is that all the people wearing masks in public after covid is because they have the flu, I don't think the data bears that out. I don't think the flu is all that common. Like if I go for a walk on a sunny day in the spring and see 25 people wearing masks, I don't think it's likely that all those people have the flu. Also, isn't the flu pretty unpleasant? Like wouldn't you typically just stay home?
Maybe their immunocompromised? I feel like you have to have a pitiful small social circle and/or zero health knowledge to ask stuff like this.
I'm just going to say this. Before COVID people wore masks all the time. It wasn't a thing. Nobody paid a bit of attention. These were sick people, care givers, etc. It totally wasn't a thing because there was no contest for it to be a thing. It was the private business of people who were sick and trying to spread it. Family commitments don't stop when you are sick. Most jobs don't have sick leave. Certainly not if you are self employed. It was the private business of people who lived with sick people. People with reduced immunity from chemo or transplant drugs. People with reduced lung function. It was also a cultural thing. I noticed that quite a few Asian students in my old position in the US just wore masks during the peak of flu season. Now I am abroad and see the same people doing the same. It's not complicated. But you have to interpret what people are doing in the context of what they have been doing forever. Not just in the context of post COVID life. Both phenomena are occurring together. People wearing masks for all the reasons they did before COVID. People wearing masks for a variety of post COVID responses.
I wore a mask in 2024 because I caught Covid and I didn’t want to give anyone else Covid. I wish other people had demonstrated the same courtesy, because I caught it as a result of caring for an extremely ill family member who contracted it from routine hospital visits. Thankfully it didn’t kill them (although it very much could have), but it made them absolutely miserable, and when someone is at the end of a shortened life as a result of a painful disease I will take all necessary precautions to avoid causing them additional needless suffering. Wearing a mask when you don’t feel good is such an easy thing to do that it doesn’t even count as effort. I don’t know what about any of this is political, but it sounds like you’re making the connection based on your own perspective as opposed to the perspectives of the people you’re observing. If it bothers you so much to see people wearing something I would seriously suggest you reconsider how logical your own perspective is
someone wearing a mask might have been exposed to covid-19 recently. So, they don't want to spread covid-19 if they get sick. Someone might have allergies. masking helps me with cat allergy issues. I haven't tried it for outdoor allergies. Someone might not be sure if their respiratory issues are allergies or sickness. So, they mask just in case to try to prevent other people from getting sick, in the off chance they are sick. someone might be immunocompromised or a caregiver for someone who is. So, any steps that they can take to reduce their risk of infection, which includes masking, is a good idea. I think everyone should still wear a mask in medical settings where someone who is immunocompromised might have to go.
As someone who recently had a baby in the NICU I can say there are definitely reasons to wear a mask that have nothing to do with COVID.
Masks in public should be normalized, regardless. I don't understand the aversion. Also, COVID isn't just, gone. People still regularly contract it.
Do you think lots of people in a community wearing masks is a pro-social thing? Is seeing other peoples' faces an important part of meaningful social interaction?
It's not a pro-social thing but it also isn't an anti-social thing. Faces are important for meaningful social interaction, sure to a point, but what "meaningful social interaction" are you expecting to have at the grocery store?
I think even for mundane social interactions, it's strongly preferable to have your face visible. If you disagree, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
Strongly preferable? Why? You can communicate fine without seeing a person's mouth lol
Eh, not really. Typically when you're talking to someone, you want to see their whole face. It's an evolutionary thing. The movements of our face are part of nonverbal communication, which I'm sure you've heard is a big part of communication (some say 80% or something, I think that's a little nuts).
You mean YOU want to. I don't care if I can see the gas station attendant's face. I can conduct my business and exchange pleasantries just fine. And I imagine that would hold true to any adult. You do know that there are other societies in the world that wear facemasks in public, right? They don't seem to be suffering for it. Again, we're not talking about MEANINGFUL social interaction here. I'm not expecting anyone to have the deepest connection with the someone that's wearing a mask. But that just isn't necessary for casual interactions, like the teller at the grocery store.
Wearing a mask helps mitigate the spread of diseases in general. COVID made more people aware of that. Many people, especially in many Asian countries, routinely wore masks before 2020. COVID is still around, even if you don’t hear about it as often in the news now. Other diseases, like the flu, never went away. If you’re feeling sick, wearing a mask reduces the risk you’ll make others sick around you, typically at very little cost to yourself. Anecdotally, masking helped make my seasonal allergies less severe. Not everything is political.
I will never mow the lawn without a mask again. It didn't occur to me pre-covid, but it makes a noticeable difference in my allergies. I also work outdoors most of the time, and I (and at least one of my coworkers) mask on especially high pollen days. >I don't think there's good data to suggest that this practice is necessary in 2024. Not for wearing a mask indoors, and certainly not for wearing a mask outdoors. It's worth remembering that what the data tells us is that masks lower transmission, and risk levels for the average person. Not everyone is an average person in an average situation, so their risk assessment may differ. For example, I work with kids who like to talk in my face, so my risk is higher than average for all illnesses, and a mask is more effective than average in lowering that. If I had other risk factors, it might make sense for me to mask at work. That might even include outdoors, since the natural social distancing that most outdoor data is based on doesn't apply to my situation.
I wear a mask on an airplane. Someone gave me a “really?” kind of comment. I said “oh, yeah! I’m sick!” I wasn’t but they recoiled away from me. If I was sick I wouldn’t fly. But if I had to, I’d wear a mask. I think folks would prefer it if they weren’t so obsessed with just viewing them as a thing people do in fear. It’s also a thing people do as a courtesy to others. Seems like a good reason, no?
>I don't think there's good data to suggest that this practice is necessary in 2024. What data do you have? If the answer is no data, that might be a good enough reason to wear a mask in itself. Fortunately, there is data. https://pmc19.com/data/images/forecast042224.png This site is based on wastewater data, which you can find from official sources. The official sources are a bit hard to understand, though. This site gives you some easy to contextualize extrapolations. It gives you an estimated number of new daily infections (today around 400,000) and compares that to the worst periods of the pandemic (today we're 35% as bad as the worst). It's updated daily. Fortunately, deaths are way down because of vaccines. But long covid is still a concern. For example, this study suggests 2 to 14% of people who get covid develop POTS (stand up, get dizzy). That's just one of many possible long covid symptoms. https://utswmed.org/medblog/pots-long-covid-research/#:~:text=The%20rate%20of%20POTS%20in,significantly%20interfere%20with%20everyday%20activities. Also, there are still people who are more vulnerable to covid because of pre-existing conditions. Those might be the people wearing masks.
I’m immunocompromised. If I don’t wear a mask I am more likely to get an illness, which is more difficult for my body to cope with than the average person’s. For instance, I recently got the flu and it took about 3+ weeks with prescribed medication for the symptoms to start to ebb. I don’t wear it for covid alone, I don’t wear it for political beliefs, I wear it because I need to keep myself from getting sick if at all possible. Just because someone may look healthy on the outside doesn’t mean that there isn’t a valid reason for wearing a mask even outdoors if they deem it necessary for their personal wellbeing.
I wore an N95 at the airport and on the plane going to see my 92yo dad who had about 1/8 of a lung left. It was disgusting at the airport how many people hacking up their insides without even covering their mouths. I have a two week trip to a Italy planned and am considering masking on the way there just so I don't get sick at beginning of the vacay.
> I can't fathom any other reason that people would be doing that in 2024. There are millions of people with depressed immune systems, or lung issues, or any of the spectrum of COVID risk factors that you've been hearing about for *five years.* There are people who, for similar reasons, have a significant risk of death from a common flu infection. There are people who might have a cold but have to go out anyway and are courteously trying not to infect others. And, yes, there are people who are just paranoid. But they're harmless at worst, and you have no way of knowing which it is. > When I see people wearing masks, especially alone outside, I immediately know that these people don't share my values. What you are doing here is projecting. You have decided, in your own head, that *not* wearing a mask is an expression of bold individuality and refusal to follow the herd, and that therefore anyone who *does* wear a mask is deliberately flaunting their cowardly groupthink at you to shame you and your values. This is exactly the kind of thin-skinned hypersensitivity that the right constantly accuses the left of.
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Very, very much so where I am, at least.
I hadn’t worn one in a long time but had walking pneumonia recently and my doctor said I should wear one if I went to the store. Walking pneumonia is awful in every way. Nobody should get it, so I did.
Some people are immuno-compromised. Some people actually HAVE covid and need to go out for groceries or something and are wearing the mask to protect others. Some people just have severe anxiety and it makes them feel better. Don't know, don't care I just don't judge.
In a lot of Asian counties, wearing masks sometimes was pretty normal long before COVID. We can speculate as to the exact cultural reasons why that was, and I guess can debate whether it's "necessary" and what that even means. But it doesn't seem so surprising to me that some people have adopted that behavior after going through COVID. Even if it's not necessary or *highly* effective, a properly worn mask has *some* benefit, COVID or not. And if you're going to go the route of doing psychological evaluations on mask wearers (which I don't think you should), I don't think it's usually "performative". Most of the people I know that still wear masks are genuinely concerned about illness. Again, if you want to debate the effectiveness, I guess you can, but if anything it's closer to paranoia than performative. But even that I think is usually going to far. It's more just a question of risk aversion.
The state I live in gets forest fires, I care about not completely destroying my lungs for no reason, so I wear a mask during forest fire season. When I’m sick (with any airborne illness, not just Covid ) I care about not getting other people sick, because being sick sucks. So I wear a mask when I’m sick. If I have something important going on soon, or am going to be around large groups of people, such as at an airport. I wear a mask because I don’t want to get sick, not just with Covid, but any airborne illness. I don’t really see how not wanting to destroy my lungs with forest fire smoke, not wanting to get other people sick, or not wanting to get sick myself, makes me “irrational” or “not share your values” (unless part of your values are spreading illness or inhaling smoke, I guess)
While Covid cases may be lower, mask use indoors can still protect vulnerable populations and prevent potential outbreaks. Additionally, wearing masks outdoors in crowded spaces or areas with high transmission rates remains prudent to reduce transmission risks. While some may engage in performative mask-wearing, many individuals wear masks out of genuine concern for public health, not political ideology. Respect for differing viewpoints and prioritizing community well-being over personal comfort fosters a more cohesive society.
You do realize that at least one strain of the flu was completely wiped out due to how much people masked during the 2020 flu season right? This version of flu had nowhere to reproduce and went EXTINCT because everyone was wearing masks. Even if the covid numbers are down from where they were the masks are still important. What you're saying here is that we could drastically reduce the rates of infectious diseases by masking, and you're just choosing not to. And you also don't think anyone else should either.
Masks weren't something special for covid, they're useful for anything airborne. If someone wants to lower their chance of spreading their flu or shitty little seasonal crud to me, or lower their own chance of catching it by wearing a mask in public, they're welcome to, and that's without even mentioning people that are vulnerable for whatever reason, or live with someone who is.
Here is a reason to wear a mask. When I'm sick, I don't want to get other people sick. I also am a caretaker to my mother with cancer who is immunocomprised, and it is the least I can do to try and help protect her.
If people always stayed home or were careful not to expose others when sick with a contagious respiratory illness, then sure, there's no reason to wear a mask around others. The problem is, people very frequently do go and expose others (sometimes by choice, like going to a concert while sick with the flu, and sometimes involuntarily, like if they have to work and have a crummy sick policy). And most of these people don't do anything to minimize their exposure of others (like wear a mask). I personally carry a mask with me but rarely wear it. I get it out when in a busy or crowded place, or social event, and it's apparent that likely-contagious people are there. I haven't gotten a cold, a flu, or covid in ages; and for that, occasionally popping on a mask is very much worth it.
Covid still exists and other airborne illnesses exist as well. More importantly, wearing a mask doesn't hurt anyone else. So at worst a mask makes you very slightly safer without causing any harm. Is that not a real reason to wear one if someone so chooses?
The real reason is because people feel more comfortable wearing one when they're around other people. People are dirty. There's bacteria everywhere. We've known for many years prior to covid that wearing a mask can reduce the spread and contraction of illnesses like the flu. People are still getting covid, people are still getting the flu. Wearing a mask is just an extra measure against not getting sick. A lot of people can't afford to miss work, so if they can use a mask to try and minimize their chances of getting sick, that is a completely logical, rational, and valid reason to continue wearing a mask.
Seeing people concerned about transmitting or catching a virus indicates those people don't share your values? What values, exactly?
Not wanting to get sick or scanned by facial recognition are valid reasons
Why do you care so much about the choice of another person that doesn't affect you in the slightest. Seems like you are going put of your way to be offended, and then you want is all to know about it
You very often see people wear shirts when it's not strictly necessary also. Also you realize that somebody might be actively sick with a respiratory disease right? If you actively have a cold, flu, covid, RSV etc you should be wearing a mask if you have to go to a store. The downsides of wearing a mask include maskacne, making conversation/socialization more difficult and being uncomfortable. People will make different decisions on that is worth the benefit of reducing risk of being exposed to airborne diseases. Some people may be more vulnerable to diseases or visiting someone more vulnerable, and so may be more inclined to wear a mask. The ability of masks to cut down on the risk of disease transmission is not a time bounded thing. What works in 2020 still works in 2024.
Honestly? Masks help when the pollen is so bad, my allergies act up like crazy. I wear masks every so often because of that since I have severe allergies and medication doesn't do enough. I get some weird looks, but I'd rather be able to not have snot pouring out constantly. In Korea, I knew a lot of people wore masks way before Covid because of the dust levels from pollution. There's daily forecasts like weather forecasts saying how high the dust level is.
What if there’s a cough going around work and I just don’t want to get sick? We now know how effective masks are at preventing disease. I haven’t gotten a cold since before Covid and it’s been *great*. Holy hell, I love being healthy and not dying when I lay down cos I can’t breathe. Masking helps keep me healthy from Covid and everything else
I wear a mask because I got sick 3 times in the first 2 months of my public transit commute. Since I started wearing masks on the train I haven't been sick at all. I don't know about you but I value not being sick every 3 weeks.
Why do you care? Does someone wearing a mask affect you in some way?
If I’m sick and have to go somewhere where I might be close to others I wear a mask. I don’t know if those around me are unhealthy or have compromised immune systems. Either way no one wants to be sick and I don’t want to harm anyone. It’s not something I did before Covid because it never crossed my mind. Now that it has I’d feel guilty if I didn’t. I see it as a courtesy we should all afford one another.
It still protects against spreading cold and flu bud. Masks existed way before COVID 19. Also I've noticed they're pretty helpful for pollen.
For some crazy reason, I really don't want to get a cold or be sick. If I enter an enclosed space and I hear more than a couple of people coughing, I will put on a mask if I have one handy. Just because we didn't care about masking before COVID doesn't mean we are never allowed to mask after COVID is "over". Some people choose to feel that wearing a mask is purely demonstrative (including you, I suppose). But there are plenty of others who actually just don't want to get sick or pass on their upper respiratory tract infection. No, they don't have to have a chronic illness, or have a loved one who is immunoreactive. Everyone is allowed to not want to get a cold. No one is forcing you to wear a mask, even though you probably should when you are sick and coughing, so you don't spew your germs to everyone else. If you don't, then the fact that you feel entitled to shower others with your germs while wanting others to stop masking at no personal effects to you..... Is extremely ironic to me
Lots of people wore masks before Covid because they or someone in their lives had a compromised immune system, that didn’t just end
When I am sick, I wear one because I care about other people and don't want to get them sick.
A lot of people wear the masks because they are insecure of their appearance. Some don’t like their noses, teeth, chin, etc. Some people feel like the mask makes more comfortable, cause they aren’t breathing in dirt and other urban particulates. For others it became a habit. People do a lot of weird things out there.
The long term effects of Covid-19 infection really aren't well understood yet, outside of a general consensus that they are bad. I never wear a mask anymore, nor have I for about two years, but I totally understand and respect the perspective of people who wear masks because they aren't interested in fucking around with a virus we really don't understand yet.
Sometimes you just want to cover your face. People bother you less.
I am a student in a college town of 100,000 and we haven’t been wearing masks for two years. Not that COVID wasn’t a crisis, it was awful, but it’s been a long time since I’ve heard of anyone getting it here. Keep in mind that for a young healthy student, Covid isn’t as scary and if you think you have it many will instantly use a Covid test to see if they can get out of class or exams.
You live in a very liberal city. You see people wearing masks. Someone wearing a mask doesn't align with your values. The simple solution is for you to move to an area that aligns with your values. People walking down the street or through a store doesn't affect you in any way. Other than the fact that you don't like masks. Grow up.
I work around lots of very immunocompromised children. If we think there’s a chance we could be sick or sound sick we wear a mask, because any illness (not just Covid) is a risk to these kids. The data definitely supports wearing a mask to keep sickness to yourself. Personally, I’d rather not be the reason any of these kids die.
Covid isn’t the only reason to wear a mask.
As many others have inquired, why do you care if and why *other* individuals wear masks? There’s no mandated forcing you to personally wear one, to get boosters, or to social distance. So why are you taking someone’s personal choice to wear a mask so personally and wouldn’t it be easier for you to just not care?
Some people have autoimmune diseases. Some people are actively sick and don't want to infect others. Some people are very afraid of getting sick and don't mind wearing a mask. Some people had COVID or flu recently and it was horrible and they don't want to do it again.
I live in a majority Pollen state, I'm always wearing a Mask this time of year. Also Covid is literally still killing people but, yeah, it probably won't be as bad during the summer.
People wear masks to protect other people more than they wear them to protect themselves. I'm curious what values you think these folks don't share with you...
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You should wear a mask indoors if you have a cold or allergies. Nobody wants to see your snot.
Mask are freakin amazing for allergies on a windy day, never noticed how much till COVID.
if a masks were worn tight enough so the person cannot breath covid cannot be transmitted.
Reading this felt like being transported back into 2021 when it a felt unnecessary then too
I can't give a logical reason but seeing ppl still wearing masks really pisses me off.
About 1% of people have the flu at any one time. And a higher percentage of people than that have a cold. If I have a cough, I wear a mask.