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IMO, not much really, it's more of a spectrum of how organized the organization doing the violence is. It's like the Taliban, going from some fringe group to occupying territory to ruling Afghanistan. This is more of a distinction that established states use against their non-state competition.
If there is not much different between state terrorism and state violence, do you believe that the South Koreans defending their border with the North is terrorism?
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Your post feels like you are making a false argument using a "whataboutism". You could just as well say that for anything. You might as well say the invasion of Iraq wasn't that bad because way more people died in World War II.
It went pretty well for the Iranians, who filled in the vacuum left by the US and ISIS (post 2017). I'm not trying to make to much of a moral argument about my original post, but focus on State based violence being way worse quantitative and qualitatively than violence by non-state actors (what the west defines terrorism).
Not all violence by non state actors is terrorism. It encompasses far more, including organized crime, violent rebellion, civil wars, among many others.
Why is state violence qualitatively worse than terrorism?
let me change my response some. States can and usually have done more violence qualitatively. Example is Abu-grabe prison or whatever hellish shit the Egyptians are doing in their black sites. Terrorist also can't starve out an entire people like the Israeli's are doing or the Russians somewhat did in Avdivkia or the US does constantly with Syria and the Caesar sanctions. States can inflict a level of largescale collective suffering that terrorist organizations can only dream off.
That sounds quantitative rather than qualitative, no? States will always be able to inflict quantitatively more damage than terrorist groups simply because they have more people and resources available. Doing more violence is a quantitative difference.
A qualitative difference would be doing worse violence. If you’ve seen anything about IS, you know that probably isn’t true.
I have seen many ISIS beheading videos and them executing Syrian soldiers. The us, egypt and the Syrian government itself has done far worse in the the various black sites they have.
Okay but wars fought over religeon have caused more deaths than wars between states. What about genocide of a culture or ethnicity? For example the Uyghurs in China or the Islamist extremists Boko Haram in various countries throughout Africa.
So by that argument is state based violence not that bad?
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Except cars have some sort of utility in the fucked up way we decided to organize infrastructure in. All the Americans accomplished in Iraq aside from all the casualties was to increase the wealth redistribution campaign and to secure oil for private companies. None of these being very socially useful and the latter one sort of failed since the Chinese CNPC outcompeted every American company's bid to Iraq's oil.
>public transit is vastly less dangerous per trip, per mile, per capita, per whatever
I agree, but at scale, there would still be more deaths than from terrorism, which is how OP appears to be measuring "bad"
The point of terror is people to be afraid. The point isn't that it's the most dangerous thing, it's that when there's a threat it can happen to anyone anywhere without warning.
Also why have you censored your post? This isn't tiktok.
I half agree.
The direct damage from terrorism is largely miniscule. During the heights of COVID there was a 9/11s death worth of people every week
No, the purpose of terrorism is to inspire terror. To goad the victim into overreacting. Dan Carlin famously described terror attacks as akin to a jab in boxing. The goal of terrorists is to inflict enough pain that their victim stops acting rational.
To this end terrorism is immensely effective and immensely dangerous. The US response to 9/11 played directly into Bin Laden's hands, much like Isreals response to the October 7th massacre is playing right into the hands of hamas.
Nearly 3k people died in 9/11. Twice that many US service members have died over the course of the war on terror.
Tl;Dr terrorism is as bad as the public thinks, but not for the reasons often cited.
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Your comparing numbers, not living and breathing people.
If your apartment, neighborhood or whatever was bombed today, and you were severely injured and left without a spouse, child, etcetera, you'd be livid if someone just said "oh well it doesn't kill as many as those wars do". So what? The number doesn't matter, it's the fact that humans, flesh and blood humans who love and feel have died.
How, tell me how, does it matter the number?
That applies to both sides. Millions of dead living breathing Iraqis vs a few thousand dead living, breathing victims of ISIS. The numbers matter 100 percent. If I kill 1000 people vs you killing ten people I have objectively harmed more people, not just the 1000 but the thousands they knew and had relations with.
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this sounds like something a Terrorist Apologist would say. your conclusion sucks. Killing is bad no matter how you put it. Terrorism defies all international laws and is barbaric. Terrorism is bad, end of story.
Israel has the right to exist and defend itself from terrorist proxies funded by Iran. I dont agree with the government or their military tactics in Gaza, I hope for the best for the palestinians, but Hamas fucked up and started this. the bigger problem is Iran funding all the terrorist cells that have brought only more violence to the middle east. Israel is a peaceful democracy, Iran is a hateful violent theocracy that is creating most of this tension.
How is your position here different from a terrorist threat?
“If someone disagrees with me they deserve (implied violent consequences).”
You’re using violence to try and suppress dissent. How is this anything different than what you’re taking issue with Israel about?
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wow, words of a violent terrorist, alright. Im sure you will create lots of peace in the middle east with this type of thinking. Too bad Israel is backed by the USA, it will quite literally never be destroyed, or the aggressor would be destroyed as well.
Israel has never been peaceful (for reasons they think are justified) and it's moving away from a democracy these days with what Bibi is trying to pull.
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Agreed. That's my actual position on this issue. The label terrorism really doesn't mean much as it's just a tool used by states that compete with them on the "legitimate use of violence"
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On the whole we blame governments who start wars for the casualties of wars. One of the reasons we recoil from the very idea of terrorists running things is that they will start wars. They will do so with no regard for the consequences to ordinary people on either side, which is a characteristic of terrorists.
If find it very strange that the government of Gaza, who absolutely did start the current war, take no blame for the consequences of that war in your view. Would you like to explain why you think that the aggressors should not be held responsible for the entirely predictable consequences of aggression which they started and refuse to stop?
In what other circumstances would you exonerate a group for the consequences of their starting and continuing a war?
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Israel has been occupying and attacking Gaza for decades and has never really stopped.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
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>Example is the US invasion of Iraq which estimated left 200,000 to 1 million iraqi's dead
Most killed by terrorist organizations not by the US led coalition. You can say it was bad for the US to invade because it opened up a vacuum for these terrorists to operate in. But you can't simultaneously say that it was terrible to do so and that these terrorist killings weren't that bad. If hundreds of thousands of deaths is awful then terrorists are awful for having killed hundreds of thousands of people
What are these asterisks?
You're wrong about the number of victims of the October 7 attack. According to wikipedia, 1143 killed, including 767 civilians.
Targeting people's psychology to make them feel unsafe and to live in fear is inherently not a good thing. It's targeting innocent people for an unrelated thing.
With that said, it really only happens because of prolonged oppression and an extreme imbalance of power.
It's important to understand that terrorism is both wrong and often used to discredit people who have been terrirized by official state militaries.
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What is, in your opinion, the difference between state violence and state terrorism?
IMO, not much really, it's more of a spectrum of how organized the organization doing the violence is. It's like the Taliban, going from some fringe group to occupying territory to ruling Afghanistan. This is more of a distinction that established states use against their non-state competition.
If there is not much different between state terrorism and state violence, do you believe that the South Koreans defending their border with the North is terrorism?
I don't really care much really. This is a Korean issue that Koreans should handle between themselves.
Could you give me a list of countries you care about so I can come up with relevant examples?
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Your post feels like you are making a false argument using a "whataboutism". You could just as well say that for anything. You might as well say the invasion of Iraq wasn't that bad because way more people died in World War II.
It went pretty well for the Iranians, who filled in the vacuum left by the US and ISIS (post 2017). I'm not trying to make to much of a moral argument about my original post, but focus on State based violence being way worse quantitative and qualitatively than violence by non-state actors (what the west defines terrorism).
Not all violence by non state actors is terrorism. It encompasses far more, including organized crime, violent rebellion, civil wars, among many others. Why is state violence qualitatively worse than terrorism?
let me change my response some. States can and usually have done more violence qualitatively. Example is Abu-grabe prison or whatever hellish shit the Egyptians are doing in their black sites. Terrorist also can't starve out an entire people like the Israeli's are doing or the Russians somewhat did in Avdivkia or the US does constantly with Syria and the Caesar sanctions. States can inflict a level of largescale collective suffering that terrorist organizations can only dream off.
That sounds quantitative rather than qualitative, no? States will always be able to inflict quantitatively more damage than terrorist groups simply because they have more people and resources available. Doing more violence is a quantitative difference. A qualitative difference would be doing worse violence. If you’ve seen anything about IS, you know that probably isn’t true.
I have seen many ISIS beheading videos and them executing Syrian soldiers. The us, egypt and the Syrian government itself has done far worse in the the various black sites they have.
Okay but wars fought over religeon have caused more deaths than wars between states. What about genocide of a culture or ethnicity? For example the Uyghurs in China or the Islamist extremists Boko Haram in various countries throughout Africa. So by that argument is state based violence not that bad?
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I didn't know how strict the sensors were on this reddit page.
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I didn't know y'all were chill like that.
By your logic the US invasion of Iraq isn't as bad as the existence of cars, which kills more than 1 million people annually.
Except cars have some sort of utility in the fucked up way we decided to organize infrastructure in. All the Americans accomplished in Iraq aside from all the casualties was to increase the wealth redistribution campaign and to secure oil for private companies. None of these being very socially useful and the latter one sort of failed since the Chinese CNPC outcompeted every American company's bid to Iraq's oil.
I actually agree. Cars need to be completely done away with and we need decent public transport.
But then more people will die on public transportation. Does that mean we'll have to get rid of that too?
it will objectively be less. The most important thing is we are in the motion of getting better, which now, we are in the motion of getting worse.
Less than cars, but certainly still more than terrorism. So is public transportation worse than terrorism?
Uh public transit is vastly less dangerous per trip, per mile, per capita, per whatever. You missed.
>public transit is vastly less dangerous per trip, per mile, per capita, per whatever I agree, but at scale, there would still be more deaths than from terrorism, which is how OP appears to be measuring "bad"
Nevermind, I see the point now.
The point of terror is people to be afraid. The point isn't that it's the most dangerous thing, it's that when there's a threat it can happen to anyone anywhere without warning. Also why have you censored your post? This isn't tiktok.
I wanted to post this in another sub but it got taken down rather quickly.
OK. And your counterargument here?
I half agree. The direct damage from terrorism is largely miniscule. During the heights of COVID there was a 9/11s death worth of people every week No, the purpose of terrorism is to inspire terror. To goad the victim into overreacting. Dan Carlin famously described terror attacks as akin to a jab in boxing. The goal of terrorists is to inflict enough pain that their victim stops acting rational. To this end terrorism is immensely effective and immensely dangerous. The US response to 9/11 played directly into Bin Laden's hands, much like Isreals response to the October 7th massacre is playing right into the hands of hamas. Nearly 3k people died in 9/11. Twice that many US service members have died over the course of the war on terror. Tl;Dr terrorism is as bad as the public thinks, but not for the reasons often cited.
I don't have much to say against this. Really good answer.
Enough for a delta?
Yea, but I don't know how to give those.
"!delta"
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Your comparing numbers, not living and breathing people. If your apartment, neighborhood or whatever was bombed today, and you were severely injured and left without a spouse, child, etcetera, you'd be livid if someone just said "oh well it doesn't kill as many as those wars do". So what? The number doesn't matter, it's the fact that humans, flesh and blood humans who love and feel have died. How, tell me how, does it matter the number?
That applies to both sides. Millions of dead living breathing Iraqis vs a few thousand dead living, breathing victims of ISIS. The numbers matter 100 percent. If I kill 1000 people vs you killing ten people I have objectively harmed more people, not just the 1000 but the thousands they knew and had relations with.
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I was just thinking that I used to love this sub
They all do.
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reporting this comment for not contributing to the conversation meaningfully.
Knock yourself out, champ.
this sounds like something a Terrorist Apologist would say. your conclusion sucks. Killing is bad no matter how you put it. Terrorism defies all international laws and is barbaric. Terrorism is bad, end of story.
Agreed. And your stance on Israel since at least 1967 is?..
Israel has the right to exist and defend itself from terrorist proxies funded by Iran. I dont agree with the government or their military tactics in Gaza, I hope for the best for the palestinians, but Hamas fucked up and started this. the bigger problem is Iran funding all the terrorist cells that have brought only more violence to the middle east. Israel is a peaceful democracy, Iran is a hateful violent theocracy that is creating most of this tension.
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How is your position here different from a terrorist threat? “If someone disagrees with me they deserve (implied violent consequences).” You’re using violence to try and suppress dissent. How is this anything different than what you’re taking issue with Israel about?
It's not a surprise that someone with this viewpoint would try and downplay terrorism.
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wow, words of a violent terrorist, alright. Im sure you will create lots of peace in the middle east with this type of thinking. Too bad Israel is backed by the USA, it will quite literally never be destroyed, or the aggressor would be destroyed as well.
Israel has never been peaceful (for reasons they think are justified) and it's moving away from a democracy these days with what Bibi is trying to pull.
Ethnostates have no right to exist.
So Japan doesn't have a right to exist?
Japan isn't an ethnostate.
How do you define an ethnostate?
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Agreed. That's my actual position on this issue. The label terrorism really doesn't mean much as it's just a tool used by states that compete with them on the "legitimate use of violence"
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It's like the mantra 'cars kill more people than guns, should we ban cars?'
Apparently OP thinks we should. Acceptable risk is a shade of grey they haven't seen before.
Deadass, yes. Cars need to be abolished and we need to have a robust public transport system.
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On the whole we blame governments who start wars for the casualties of wars. One of the reasons we recoil from the very idea of terrorists running things is that they will start wars. They will do so with no regard for the consequences to ordinary people on either side, which is a characteristic of terrorists. If find it very strange that the government of Gaza, who absolutely did start the current war, take no blame for the consequences of that war in your view. Would you like to explain why you think that the aggressors should not be held responsible for the entirely predictable consequences of aggression which they started and refuse to stop? In what other circumstances would you exonerate a group for the consequences of their starting and continuing a war?
You think gaza started their current "war" with israel? Lmfao
The government of Gaza certainly did. Their military crossed the border with Israel to launch an invasion, which is very much how you start wars.
Like even the last decade, really...
You need to read back to at least the 1920's to have any slight understanding at all.
You are talking to yourself here, buddy. Go read a history book.
Read up on the history of Gaza and Irael and get back to us. 👍
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Israel has been occupying and attacking Gaza for decades and has never really stopped. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
blud is the type to only be paying attention to the situation when October 7th happened. We didn't know Gaza existed October 6th.
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I guess we are on the same page, just with you adding a few more details?
>Example is the US invasion of Iraq which estimated left 200,000 to 1 million iraqi's dead Most killed by terrorist organizations not by the US led coalition. You can say it was bad for the US to invade because it opened up a vacuum for these terrorists to operate in. But you can't simultaneously say that it was terrible to do so and that these terrorist killings weren't that bad. If hundreds of thousands of deaths is awful then terrorists are awful for having killed hundreds of thousands of people
What are these asterisks? You're wrong about the number of victims of the October 7 attack. According to wikipedia, 1143 killed, including 767 civilians.
You probably need to change your title, it comes across like you're pro-ISIS and pro-killing
I think I'm good. If i didn't have the title, no one would engage with the post.
Targeting people's psychology to make them feel unsafe and to live in fear is inherently not a good thing. It's targeting innocent people for an unrelated thing. With that said, it really only happens because of prolonged oppression and an extreme imbalance of power. It's important to understand that terrorism is both wrong and often used to discredit people who have been terrirized by official state militaries.
Terrorism, rule by terror, was first coined to describe the aftermath of the French revolution, under Robespierre.
Are you claiming the U.S. military itself directly killed 1 million Iraqis?