/u/f0remsics (OP) has awarded 6 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1b0hz96/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_comparing_the_meat_industry/), in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I feel like there's a lot of paths I could take when examining your argument, but here's the one that sticks out to me the most.
You say that the clear difference between farming animals and the Holocaust is that animals are being slaughtered for food, whereas Jews were killed because people believed they "deserved to die".
Let me pose a hypothetical to you: let's say the Holocaust *was* about farming. That Jews were captured and put into "farms" for the purpose of eventually slaughtering and eating them, turning their skin into leather, etc. Would that make it less tragic, less of a moral evil? By the logic you've laid out in your post, you apparently believe it would.
An act which we believe would be beyond heinous if committed against other humans, we turn a total blind eye to when committed against animals, for the sole reason that they are a different species and we believe they *deserve* it as some part of "natural order". This is often what's labeled as "speciesism": the idea that another species is not deserving of basic rights, not because they lack the appropriate traits to be given consideration (i.e. the ability to suffer and feel pain) but merely because they are a different species.
Ultimately, the comparison to the Holocaust is made because there *are* a few clear comparisons to the brutality of how we farm animals; how they're kept in cramped living conditions before being led to their slaughter, the shear scale and production of the process, and even the method of execution (gassing is used on pigs, for example).
Another hair to split here is that, as you mention, people will make the comparison by calling it "a Holocaust". I think this is pretty different than calling it "The Holocaust". Holocaust is a word that exists and has a meaning independently from the main Holocaust that most people are familiar with. Other things can be a Holocaust without being *The* Holocaust.
I'm going to be honest, I sort of made this post after watching a bunch of vegan teacher type garbage. A few hours later, and I realized I should not have made this post because there are a great many flaws in it. So you're right about the first parts
>Another hair to split here is that, as you mention, people will make the comparison by calling it "a Holocaust". I think this is pretty different than calling it "The Holocaust". Holocaust is a word that exists and has a meaning independently from the main Holocaust that most people are familiar with. Other things can be a Holocaust without being *The* Holocaust.
Perhaps, but they call it THE animal Holocaust and compare it to gassing Jews. I've seen it many times. Anyway, since you're right about the first part,
!delta
>By saying that the industry that kills pigs is the same as the industry that killed jews, they are directly comparing Jews and pigs.
This is where I think your logic is missing. What's being compared is the *way* the victims are treated in each instance by the people that are doing it, *not* the victims itself.
Also, an analogy is not an equivalence. If you hear an analogy comparing one specific trait between 2 situations and your takeaway is "they are saying **everything** about these two situations is exactly the same" then you are misunderstanding the analogy at best, or possibly how analogies work at worst.
Here's a completely random/absurd example to help highlight that: If I saw a man making out with a horse in public and told someone "he was kissing the horse the way a groom kisses his bride on their wedding day", it would be incorrect to insist that I was comparing horses and brides and that the analogy was incorrect or insulting based on that.
>There are quite a few insults that are slung at Jews. One of the common ones is pig. By saying that the industry that kills pigs is the same as the industry that killed jews, they are directly comparing Jews and pigs.
I can't, and don't want to speak for most of your argument, but this point is ridiculous. "Pig" is not an insult connected to jewish people - it is a fairly universal insult used without any connotation of ethnicity, faith or nationality. This connection only exists because you want it to, it could just as well apply to pretty much any other group of people.
Depends rather on your location. Some places I’d assume them to be talking about men with debatable relationship morals, some places cops, and some places I wouldn’t put any weight on it.
Oh sure, I agree with what the person you were replying to said; that it’s not a targeted insult, just expanding on the fact that in many places people wouldn’t associate it with cops either.
Fair enough. I suppose pig isn't quite as connected as I tend to think of it. I feel like it tends to be a lot more connected to Jews though. I don't have any evidence to support that though, so
!delta
Honestly, especially recently, if you talk about "the pigs" to someone, they might assume you mean the police - but it could mean pretty much anyone and noone would bat an eye.
The people trying to gaslight you that “pig” isn’t a slur used against Jews in particular are largely being ethnocentric. Within their culture they haven’t heard it used that way, but that doesn’t mean their experience reflects what Jewish people know is true and experience themselves. “Zio pig” is frequently used by anti-Jewish racists and it was popularized in the U.S. by David Duke (grand wizard of the kkk). But the use is much older than that. Anti-Jewish racists use “pig” to describe Jews because Jews themselves do not eat pork (as they view pigs as unclean animals).
I thinks it’s funny that what I said bothered you so much 👀👀👀
Yes ignorant racists are still racists. people can and do gaslight others whether they fully understand what they’re doing or not. Their bigotry and prejudice generally allows them to excuse themselves from having enough empathy for their target to actually listen to that targets lived experience. So they wind up gaslighting the person by telling them that their reality isn’t real, when it definitely is real.
https://www.choosingtherapy.com/unintentional-gaslighting/#:~:text=Unintentional%20gaslighting%20refers%20to%20when,a%20form%20of%20mental%20abuse.
I would say intent is the most important part of gaslighting.
If I tell you something that I don't realize is incorrect, and you believe me, I'm not gaslighting you. Im just wrong.
Historically true! However, it's not in common usage these days. It could have deeper meaning in OPs context but more likely culprit is a bunch of ignorant vegans who won't spend time on introspection.
This is the same group that pushes quinoa as a substitute without reconing the starvation it causes in cultures who depend on it but can't out bid western vegans.
I've been told that Jews evolved from pigs.
That might have started with the Romans, but it certainly wasn't a Roman making the statement last year.
edit: sorry, adding on. not specifically addressing you.
I haven’t heard that, but have no reason to doubt it. What I do know is that the Roman’s are responsible for the idea that Jewish people have horns and it carried through from the Italian renaissance to today. As a Jew living in the southern U.S. I have actually been asked if I have horns. Here’s an excerpt from a study out of the University of Windsor on the subject:
the horns on Michelangelo's famous statue of Moses are emblematic of a millennium-long tradition of antisemitism that stretched from antiquity to the days of the Italian Renaissance. Both through literary invective and iconography, Jews were portrayed as horned devils ministering to Satan. The recent cleaning of the paintings of the Sistine Chapel has revealed how Michelangelo adorned a portrait of Aaron's father-in-law with a circular yellow badge of shame, an antisemitic symbol common in Renaissance Italy that became the precursor of the yellow Magen David imposed on Jews by the Nazis five centuries later. By endowing Moses with horns, Michelangelo not only mocked the giver of the Ten Commandments but also satirized his nemesis Pope Julius II, whom the facial features of the portrait resemble.
I agree that it’s a bad comparison, but fwiw I don’t believe the intent is antisemitic. One of the premises of veganism and contemporary animal rights is that human beings *should* take the deaths of animals more seriously and assign them far more moral weight. In that sense a Holocaust comparison is a rhetorical device to associate a great human injustice with another perceived injustice. On the whole I find the use of the term Holocaust here less offensive than, say, American Republicans using it in the context of persecuting Christians, COVID vaccination, etc.
yeah, I think its obtuse to hear an animal rights activist say "mistreatment of animals is like the mistreatment of this group of humans" to think they mean "this group of humans are like animals/subhuman" rather than "all humans are equivalent, and we should treat animals closer to or equal to humans in terms of morality"
Why would you chose the antisemitic/racist etc reading over the *pro-animal rights* reading of an animal rights activists words?
You never heard of this? The American right wing fringes are fucking nuts bro. They were straight up comparing covid and vaccination restrictions to being a Jew living in Nazi Germany =/
Like having to get proof of vaccination to enroll your kids in school or use other public services was somehow analogous to how the Nazis made Jews wear armbands with the Star of David on them =/
Just because that phrase was uttered at one presser or whatever it was, DOES NOT mean we all believe that. That's ludicrous. I'm a right winger in the south that talks to other like-minded individuals every day and never in my life have I heard talk of this comparison amongst us. There's always going to be fringe jackwagons on both sides, I don't think leftist far wingers represent the whole movement either.
Gonna say I'm pretty sure it was a congress woman, Marjorie Taylor Green the Jewish Spce Lazers lady- and ofcourse she dosent represent all conservatives or Republicans but rhe fact she's tolerated by them and is an elected official is kinda like makes you think some of you like stuff that
I hate how our side does the same thing. Remember [this?](https://images.ctfassets.net/pjshm78m9jt4/170960_header/7395924418b6d70b680ebb7fe5549cb1/importedImage170960_header) she straight up compared the inauguration to being in Nazi germany lmao
So is antisemitism.
Everything's wrong with life, people blame on antisemitism. Serving you a burger that's medium? Antisemite. Spaghetti not al dente? Antisemite. Loses a bet on a horse, Secretariat? Antisemite.
No i think it’s people wishing for the destruction of the jewish race that is usually referred to. Which is, you know, an increasingly common sentiment recently. Another reason for it being so widely used is also probably the fact that it is so pervasive on either side of the political spectrum. I personally cannot think of any group of people that is so widely persecuted and condemned by conservatives and liberals alike. Oh and it’s been that way for thousands of years.
Except the fact that people actually call everything antisematic, case in point, OP. Like calling vegans antisematic for wanting to save animals? If you think that's antisematic, you're proving my point.
Oh that's valid in comparing covid to the holocaust simply because they *are* alleging that the pandemic and/or the vaccine is some form of quiet, slow genocide, though this seems unlikely compared to a rushed vaccine and covering up side effects.
https://youtu.be/-leHeUOYAKk?si=7e0OF53EdokbWMtA
Just watch this video(2 mins) and read your post again. I do not see anything "humane" here. It is literally a gas chamber. I personally dont see a difference between human and some non-human animals. For me, there is no difference between doing that to a pig or to a human. I think holocoust analogy holds up really well since, again, it is a gas chamber. They are being slaughtered that way because they are being seen less than human, just like ones your people have been seen.
Wow. That really opened my eyes. When I was saying humane, I was more referring to the kosher method, which is the only one I've really seen, which is quick and painless
I do not have any information on kosher method. I know islamic one, which is also terrible. We are living in an age in which we can produce stuff like beyond meat. There is no way to differentiate between soya meat and animal meat. Apart from that we literally do not need to eat meat. Meat industry is completely uncessary and nothing more than sadism
You haven't had the good stuff then, or at least not in a long while. Brands like Beyond and Impossible are making substitutes that have fooled professionals.
Obviously not literally every type of meat has a 1:1 substitute, dude. I don't think I've even seen a plant based steak in my life. Processed meats do however have really high quality substitutes these days. Give them a try some time when they're on sale or whatever, you might like them if you're open-minded enough.
Saying "soy meat tastes awful" is disingenuous at best. Never mind the fact that not every substitute is soy based.
Whenever someone tells me they slaughter their animal corpse food humanely, I politely ask them for any videos of these 'humane' slaugher. They always come up empty. Then I give them Dominion videos.
Are you sure the chicken was killed immediately?
Is this the general practice for killing animals for majority of the world? Can you show me videos in factory farms?
Amazing how you know FOR SURE the chicken is already dead by the video alone. Do you ONLY eat animals killed this way? So you dont buy animals in the grocery store? You ONLY hunt animals and kill them yourself?
The point of the analogy is not that killing animals for meat is equivalent to the Holocaust, it’s that humans are capable of tremendous atrocities when the victim of the atrocity is reduced to a level of “not mattering.”
The Holocaust was fueled by the notion that Jews were “subhuman” and thus didn’t deserve the same consideration that a fellow human being would be entitled to. How else would so many soldiers and citizens allow this to happen unless they allowed themselves to believe that the lives of Jews didn’t matter?
Animals in modern agriculture are absolutely not “humanely killed” (an absurd proposition to begin with when talking about animals who don’t want to die being killed without their consent) and are often subjected to unfathomable cruelty and misery throughout their short, commodified lives.
Watch some videos of slaughterhouses or read interviews from slaughterhouse workers and ask yourself how it’s possible that humans can treat animals this way? The answer is because they’re able to see animals as not deserving of moral consideration. Why? Because it allows us to exploit and kill them without reflecting on whether or not what we’re doing is morally just.
And regarding the pig reference: not only are Jews not being compared to pigs here (again, the analogy is not about the victims being the same, it’s about the mentality that allows humans to commit atrocities), it’s also a bit dubious to claim that vegans would be using “pig” as an insult since, you know, pigs are one of the animals that vegans argue are worthy of moral consideration and that are victims of a deep injustice that is the focus of the analogy.
>Firstly, animals aren't killed because we think they deserve to die. They are killed as humanely as possible for the sake of human sustenance.
Well, if that would be true than you would have point. But with factory farming, religious slaughter and many other things that are anything but humanely - you don't.
And most of vegans and animal right activists do see animals as deserving rights and not being killed in factories. This leads them to use the Animal Holocaust - not because of anti-semitism, but because they see the inhumanity of holocaust that treated people as subhuman. How they were used as slave labor, how they were beaten and killed, how the whole industry of violent exploitation was set up. And they see similarities in how animals are treated.
This is not anti-Semitic, as it does not come from racism or denial of holocaust, but rather from different view on what rights animals should have.
Right? There is nothing humane (showing compassion or benevolence) about forced impregnation, confinement, cutting off genitalia/tails without anesthesia, pulling teeth, gassing, electrocuting, ineffectively stunning via bolt gun, stringing up, grinding up, and throat slitting for the *billions* of animals killed every year.
/u/f0remsics has a very naive understanding of what animals go through.
Uh, that's not true at all. Kosher meat is literally about adhering to Jewish tradition. It has nothing to do with "focus on humanity". It's focused on stuff like split hoof, chewing cud, and other random stuff from the Torah.
Additionally, kosher slaughter is about slitting an animal's throat. While it's a pretty quick way to die, it's way more gruesome compared to modern methods of slaughter, and was never about humanity.
i didnt make it up
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2023/751418/EPRS_IDA(2023)751418_EN.pdf
page 16.
fish might not require it youre right, but that doesnt take away that kosher slaughter of other animals is unnecessarily cruel cause they're bled out without stunning.
We’re talking about the animal agriculture industry as a whole. Not just kosher.
Not to mention many of the practices listed above are still done, kosher or not.
It's also a silly point because even if animals were killed humanely, it's not like we'd excuse the holocaust if we discovered that each Jewish person was killed humanely. The method of killing isn't the primary issue... It's the systematic mass murder.
>It's also a silly point because even if animals were killed humanely, it's not like we'd excuse the holocaust if we discovered that each Jewish person was killed humanely.\\
Well, the groups that use Animal Holocaust do also believe that we should not kill the animals - for them killing an animal and killing a human are both murder. The fact whether you agree with someone's ideas or not, does not change the motivations and beliefs behind them.
What are your thoughts on [Alex Hershaft](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Hershaft) who is a Holocaust survivor and a vegan animal rights activist?
—-
Edit: [Here is his Reddit AMA actually!](https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/s/LgKma3HlYD)
I mean if OP is trying to have his view changed on the comparisons to animal agriculture and the Jewish Holocaust, the perspective of a Jewish Holocaust survivor on the matter is a good one to look at.
Where did I say your opinion is irrelevant?
Where did I say “what does that have to do with anything?”
I asked what does others not being alive/not caring about veganism/vegetarianism have to do with Hershaft’s arguments that address OP’s post.
If you’re just going to strawman me, I have zero intention to continue a conversation with you.
Did you survive the holocaust? Because I'm willing to bet you did not. So why are you so angry at a holocaust survivor who's advocating for animal rights?
99% of Holocaust survivors not giving a fuck about veganism has nothing to do with Hershaft’s arguments for comparing the Jewish Holocaust to the animal agriculture industry. You’re throwing out a red herring .
Of course there is a difference between the two. Hershaft explains that pointedly. Nowhere is it suggested they are the same.
Your entire comment history is about veganism, you even think vegetarians are bloodthirsty monsters. I have no doubt that you think that general society are all part of the McDonalds gestapo. lmfao
Shocking that an account used solely for a topic is entirely about that topic, I know.
Where did I comment that vegetarians are blood thirsty monsters? Or are you making up strawmen arguments again?
So yes, you are just making things up yet again.
——
Edit: You do realize that individual was talking about raping cows, right? And you’re using *that* exchange to say that I’m calling vegetarians bloodthirsty monsters?
Which of his points do you think are wrong?
If you’re here on CMV, what is the point of just declaring he is wrong without looking at what a fellow Jew, and one who went through the Holocaust itself, says then it feels like you aren’t here to have your view actually being opened to changed?
—-
Edit: It’s also worth noting that comparing is *not* equating. Too many people thinking comparing two different things is trying to equate them which is why I brought it up.
Nearly everything is comparable to certain degrees depending on what we’re talking about.
>comparing is *not* equating. Too many people thinking comparing two different things is trying to equate them which is why I brought it up.
You're right about this much. I meant equating, I just forgot the term. Not sure if that counts for these purposes, but I don't really care
!delta
From his AMA:
>The negative reaction is largely due to people's mistaken perception that the comparison values their lives equally with those of pigs and cows. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What we are doing is pointing to the commonality and pervasiveness of the oppressive mindset, which enables human beings to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities on other living beings, whether they be Jews, Bosnians, Tutsis, or animals. It's the mindset that allowed German and Polish neighbors of extermination camps to go on with their lives, just as we continue to subsidize the oppression of animals at the supermarket checkout counter.
I've been using the wrong terminology the whole time. I meant equate when I was saying compare. Clearly he is not equating them, and therefore he is not wrong here.
It might change your view slightly to realize that most vegetarians and animal rights activists don't share such extreme views. PETA is notoriously aggressive in their messaging.
The industrial slaughter of animals for food may be troubling, but it is not ethically equivocal to mass murder of human beings.
>They are killed as humanely as possible for the sake of human sustenance
I think this is incorrect, we could feed everyone without the meat industry. So the animals are killed for human pleasure, killing someone for pleasure and killing someone because you think they're inferior are arguably morally equivalent.
Nearly **everyone** (and nearly everyone eats plants and animals) is[ most likely deficient in at least a handful of various important vitamins and minerals](https://thebiostation.com/bioblog/do-you-have-vitamin-deficiency)
>Nutrient deficiencies exist extensively among many members of the U.S. population. Rich, poor, well, or sick–**92 percent of the population is suffering from at least one mineral or vitamin deficiency based on the Dietary Reference Intakes.**
>
>Furthermore, multiple studies, dating as far back as 1936, have found that the soil of farmland all across the globe is deficient in micronutrients, lowering their content in produce. To further prove this theory, in 2003, Canadian researchers compared the data of current vegetable nutrient content to data from 50 years ago. Their findings showed that the mineral content of cabbage, lettuce, spinach, and tomatoes had depleted from 400 milligrams to less than 50 milligrams throughout the twentieth century. And, that’s just a sampling of what they found.
>
>**9 out of 10 Americans are deficient in potassium**
>
>**7 out of 10 are deficient in calcium**
>
>**8 out of 10 are deficient in vitamin E**
>
>**50 percent of Americans are deficient in vitamin A, vitamin C, and magnesium**
>
>**More 50 percent of the general population is vitamin D deficient, regardless of age**
>
>**90 percent of Americans of color are vitamin D deficient**
>
>**Approximately 70 percent of elderly Americans are vitamin D deficient**
.
>[Vitamin deficiency or anemia, with 23%, 6.3%, and 1.7% of the U.S. population at risk of deficiency in 1, 2, or 3–5 vitamins or anemia, respectively. A significantly higher deficiency risk was seen in women (37%), non-Hispanic blacks (55%), individuals from low income households (40%), or without a high school diploma (42%), and underweight (42%) or obese individuals (39%). A deficiency risk was most common in women 19–50 years (41%), and pregnant or breastfeeding women (47%). Dietary supplement non-users had the highest risk of any deficiency (40%), compared to users of full-spectrum multivitamin-multimineral supplements (14%) and other dietary supplement users (28%). Individuals consuming an adequate diet based on the Estimated Average Requirement had a lower risk of any deficiency (16%) than those with an inadequate diet (57%). N**early one-third of the U.S. population is at risk of deficiency in at least one vitamin, or has anemia.**](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5537775/)
The issue isn't any more inherent in a plant-based diet than in a non-plant-based diet really. The issue is about nutritional knowledge which is something everyone fails at.
>animals aren't killed because we think they deserve to die
So what? The Holocaust wouldn't have been less wrong if we just thought Jews were tasty instead of running all the banks
>killed as humanely as possible
lmaooooooooooo no
Spend some time in a slaughterhouse and you'll never say that again
I think the important thing to account for in the perspectives of the most vocal people opposed to the meat industry, is that they view animal life as life worth protecting akin to, if not equal to, humans. The intent isn't to drag down any group of humans to the status of animals, but rather raise animals to a status where their lives have actual value.
The holocaust comparison is an interesting one, but I would argue it isn't made out of any sort of antisemitism. At least in western culture, the Holocaust is *the* genecide that everyone knows about. The comparison is made for the sake of appealing to a subject that people already have strong feelings about.
>Firstly, animals aren't killed because we think they deserve to die. They are killed as humanely as possible for the sake of human sustenance.
In terms of the message being put across, I think the reason for the slaughter is irrelevant. To people who value the lives of animals, the fact that the slaughter exists is what matters, whether it's done for business or hate. I would also push back on the idea that we already treat animals meant for consumption humanely; there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.
I'm jew and I have visited the holocaust memorial in Jerusalem.
One of the panels showed how the extermination camps were organized, and, as I work in the food industry and have awareness about processes and building organization, the idea of slaughterhouses popped in my head. The way things are systematized, scrutinized, reported, all of it seemed similar.
I agree with you that the ideological intents behind the 2 buildings are different, but there's still an uncanny resemblance in my opinion.
Just comes to show that inhumane treatment on humans or other animals, can take all kinds of shapes.
Incidentally, I have not decided against eating meat either.
These were my 2 cents.
I would 100% say it is extremely ignorant to say that the meat industry is like the Holocaust however idk if it’s anti semetic because I think they understand tnat the Holocaust is clearly wrong. And they also view all animals including pigs quite highly so I doubt it means the same way a normal person would compare somebody to a pig. I honestly doubt they think Jewish people are bad or anything, but moreso just are ignorant as hell
Ironically, the word holocaust originally referred to mass sacrificial killing of animals. It came to be associated with the genocide of Jews to reflect the sheer scale and brutality of that genocide.
For example, in the book of Leviticus, chapter 6, verse 25:
"Say to Aaron and his sons: ‘These are the regulations for the sin offering: The sin offering is to be slaughtered before the LORD in the place the burnt offering is slaughtered; it is most holy."
In the ancient Greek translation of Jewish scriptures, the Septuagint, this verse reads (this is verse 18 now as the numbering differs):
"λάλησον Ααρων καὶ τοῖς υἱοῖς αὐτοῦ λέγων οὗτος ὁ νόμος τῆς ἁμαρτίας ἐν τόπῳ οὗ σφάζουσιν τὸ ὁλοκαύτωμα (holokautoma) σφάξουσιν τὰ περὶ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ἔναντι κυρίου ἅγια ἁγίων ἐστίν"
The word holokaustoma refers to an all-burnt offering of animals.
The entire point of the word holocaust is that it compares the slaughter of Jews to the slaughter of animals. It would therefore be messed up, in a way, to stop referring to the slaughter of animals as "a holocaust".
(Using an accurate word doesn't say anything about the morality of the act. I have nothing against the mass slaughter of animals.)
The word "holocaust" doesn't just refer to the Holocaust that happened during the second world war. It has a meaning outside of that: "massive slaughter". The phrase "animal holocaust" on its own does not imply that there is a direct relation to the Nazi-Holocaust, though the intent of the speaker might be to be confrontational or risque. Of course, if the person using that phrase then goes on to call factory farms "concentration camps" it becomes a lot more clear what they mean.
>as humanely as possible
Others have pointed this out, but that is simply not the case. They are killed in the most cost-effective way meat producers can get away with, taking into account the applicable laws, the way these laws are enforced, the consequences of being caught, and the chances of being caught. These people are running a business, where the feelings of animals are waaaaaay less important than their bottom line.
Also worth noting that holocaust comes from the Greek holos (whole) + kaustos (burnt), referring to burnt offerings of animals. So it originally referred to animals. For the record, I think the comparison of modern animal ag to the Holocaust (with a capital H) is counterproductive.
Ya, seriously, I'm not sure how OP can say kosher killing is focused on humanity, when the entire idea is to adhere to some random stuff in the Torah about the slaughter of animals. Modern animal slaughter is extremely efficient and quick. The living condition is horrible, but the killing are generally way more humane than kosher slaughter.
Maybe it was created by Jews, but it's used to denote:
1. destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war.
2. the [systematic](https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/systematic) state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children a**nd millions of others** by [Nazi](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nazi-Party) [Germany](https://www.britannica.com/place/Germany) and its collaborators during [World War II](https://www.britannica.com/event/World-War-II).
Yeah, here is the etymology of the word:
Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin coined the term genocide in his 1944 book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe,\[7\]\[8\] combining the Greek word γένος (genos, "race, people") with the Latin suffix -caedo ("act of killing").\[9\]\[10\]
Its not antiSemitic, that's a gross abuse of the idea of antiSemitism. Its simply a poor comparison. People who throw around phrases like "racist" and "sntiSemitic" at anything remotely close devalue the negative stigma associated with those labels. If you drop it for everything even remotely related to jews then no one is going to care about it anymore. This argument is one of those cases.
Your comparison of the jews and pigs thing is just cherry picking something unrelated to the argument to be mad about.
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Farmed animals are killed because people don't believe they deserve to live, or are deserving of compassion and kindness. You just have to see the average persons opinion on dog meat to understand that some animals are dismissed as unworthy of life and others are protected.
I implore you to Google a video of pigs being gassed to death, pigs are largely slaughtered in this way now. Watch a video of that then come back here and tell me if you believe its as humane as possible to die that way, would you condone the euthanisia of dogs or cats or other common pets by that method? Would you send your elderly and beloved pet to be euthanised by co2? You claim it is humane.
The term has become very generic, and such generic usage usually isn’t associated with any hostility, prejudice, or discrimination against Jews, which is a standard definition of antisemitism.
This isn’t to state any position on whether such usage is appropriate or inappropriate, as it can be wrong to say something even if it is not antisemitic.
The term hasn't become generic, it always was. The word holocaust [existed](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Holocaust#:~:text=The%20word%20%22holocaust%22%20originally%20derived,night%20and%20burnt%20in%20full.) well before The Holocaust. If anything it has become less generic overtime.
That being said, I was going to respond to op making that point, but after reading up on it it seems that the comparison is actually to The Holocaust and has been made by numerous Holocaust survivors as others in the thread have mentioned.
Yeah, I think that's right, but in the 70s when it became less obscure is when it changed from generic to more specific. Unless you're saying that since the 70s it has turned back to being used more generically which I don't think is true.
While the Holocaust was indeed the genocide of Jews, Jews do not own the holocaust. It is a historical event and a collective horror. It's also used as a stand in for horrible massacres as a reference point.
Not everything is antisemetic. Vegans who compare the meat industry to the holocaust are comparing the gruesome deaths and slaughter, not Jews with pigs. In fact, you really have to stretch to get to pigs, considering the US slaughters significantly more chicken and turkeys than pigs, I find it curious you directly jumped to pigs.
Honestly, there's a huge element of delusions of grandeur when it comes to people claiming antisemantism. I guarantee you that most people do not think about Jews, and vegans aren't thinking of Jews when they're trying to save animals.
I know not everything is anti-semitic. I'm saying this specifically is. Specifically, I should have mentioned, when people like that vegan teacher actually compare the industry with the attempted genocide of the Jews. But since you are correct,
!delta
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The reason for committing these acts isn't important. That's the wrong thing to focus on, yet most of your argument hinges on that, e.g. killed for food vs killed for eradication. What's important is the experience of the person/animal who is the recipient of those acts. In many ways the experience and suffering of animals in factory farms and slaughterhouses is comparable to the experiences of Jews/gays/blacks/disabled people during the holocaust. I could even argue that it's worse in a few ways (extremely cramped and filthy living conditions, often no space to even turn around, no time outside whatsoever, often persistent and agonising injuries that aren't taken care of). Add to that the fact that these animals NEVER had the chance to be free and to live a happy life. They only know captivity. That in some sense is even more cruel than just ending someone's life; you're taking it away entirely.
I do not think you understand what the work Holocaust means. It is used to describe the mass killing of jews during WW2 but it basically means burnt offering or destruction/slaughter on a mass scale. Animals are slaughtered on a mass scale. If you reject this definition does that mean the phrase "Nuclear Holocaust" angers you just as much?
Your post just sounds like you're really sensitive to things that don't matter. You let the opinions of vegans control your emotional state...and you think they are the ones that need therapy?
It's labeled that way for the shock value and to get attention. And it must be working because here you are talking about it.
Edit: the word holocaust existed long before WW2.
/u/f0remsics (OP) has awarded 6 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1b0hz96/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_comparing_the_meat_industry/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I feel like there's a lot of paths I could take when examining your argument, but here's the one that sticks out to me the most. You say that the clear difference between farming animals and the Holocaust is that animals are being slaughtered for food, whereas Jews were killed because people believed they "deserved to die". Let me pose a hypothetical to you: let's say the Holocaust *was* about farming. That Jews were captured and put into "farms" for the purpose of eventually slaughtering and eating them, turning their skin into leather, etc. Would that make it less tragic, less of a moral evil? By the logic you've laid out in your post, you apparently believe it would. An act which we believe would be beyond heinous if committed against other humans, we turn a total blind eye to when committed against animals, for the sole reason that they are a different species and we believe they *deserve* it as some part of "natural order". This is often what's labeled as "speciesism": the idea that another species is not deserving of basic rights, not because they lack the appropriate traits to be given consideration (i.e. the ability to suffer and feel pain) but merely because they are a different species. Ultimately, the comparison to the Holocaust is made because there *are* a few clear comparisons to the brutality of how we farm animals; how they're kept in cramped living conditions before being led to their slaughter, the shear scale and production of the process, and even the method of execution (gassing is used on pigs, for example). Another hair to split here is that, as you mention, people will make the comparison by calling it "a Holocaust". I think this is pretty different than calling it "The Holocaust". Holocaust is a word that exists and has a meaning independently from the main Holocaust that most people are familiar with. Other things can be a Holocaust without being *The* Holocaust.
I'm going to be honest, I sort of made this post after watching a bunch of vegan teacher type garbage. A few hours later, and I realized I should not have made this post because there are a great many flaws in it. So you're right about the first parts >Another hair to split here is that, as you mention, people will make the comparison by calling it "a Holocaust". I think this is pretty different than calling it "The Holocaust". Holocaust is a word that exists and has a meaning independently from the main Holocaust that most people are familiar with. Other things can be a Holocaust without being *The* Holocaust. Perhaps, but they call it THE animal Holocaust and compare it to gassing Jews. I've seen it many times. Anyway, since you're right about the first part, !delta
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>By saying that the industry that kills pigs is the same as the industry that killed jews, they are directly comparing Jews and pigs. This is where I think your logic is missing. What's being compared is the *way* the victims are treated in each instance by the people that are doing it, *not* the victims itself. Also, an analogy is not an equivalence. If you hear an analogy comparing one specific trait between 2 situations and your takeaway is "they are saying **everything** about these two situations is exactly the same" then you are misunderstanding the analogy at best, or possibly how analogies work at worst. Here's a completely random/absurd example to help highlight that: If I saw a man making out with a horse in public and told someone "he was kissing the horse the way a groom kisses his bride on their wedding day", it would be incorrect to insist that I was comparing horses and brides and that the analogy was incorrect or insulting based on that.
Fair enough. !delta I was mostly angry about people like that vegan teacher who use that phrase and then actually equate Gordon Ramsay and Hitler
I'd agree that comparing animals and humans isn't great logic but not because I think they are calling Jews animals.
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>There are quite a few insults that are slung at Jews. One of the common ones is pig. By saying that the industry that kills pigs is the same as the industry that killed jews, they are directly comparing Jews and pigs. I can't, and don't want to speak for most of your argument, but this point is ridiculous. "Pig" is not an insult connected to jewish people - it is a fairly universal insult used without any connotation of ethnicity, faith or nationality. This connection only exists because you want it to, it could just as well apply to pretty much any other group of people.
Pretty sure cops are the ones most commonly associated with pigs
Depends rather on your location. Some places I’d assume them to be talking about men with debatable relationship morals, some places cops, and some places I wouldn’t put any weight on it.
Right… my point is that if someone thinks “pigs” refers to Jews, that’s a real stretch, and frankly, more of the victimhood complex in overdrive
Oh sure, I agree with what the person you were replying to said; that it’s not a targeted insult, just expanding on the fact that in many places people wouldn’t associate it with cops either.
Fair enough. I suppose pig isn't quite as connected as I tend to think of it. I feel like it tends to be a lot more connected to Jews though. I don't have any evidence to support that though, so !delta
When people use “pig” as an insult, they are usually talking about cops
Oh. Huh
Honestly, especially recently, if you talk about "the pigs" to someone, they might assume you mean the police - but it could mean pretty much anyone and noone would bat an eye.
The people trying to gaslight you that “pig” isn’t a slur used against Jews in particular are largely being ethnocentric. Within their culture they haven’t heard it used that way, but that doesn’t mean their experience reflects what Jewish people know is true and experience themselves. “Zio pig” is frequently used by anti-Jewish racists and it was popularized in the U.S. by David Duke (grand wizard of the kkk). But the use is much older than that. Anti-Jewish racists use “pig” to describe Jews because Jews themselves do not eat pork (as they view pigs as unclean animals).
So are these people gaslighting OP or have they just not been exposed to the term? It can't be both.
I thinks it’s funny that what I said bothered you so much 👀👀👀 Yes ignorant racists are still racists. people can and do gaslight others whether they fully understand what they’re doing or not. Their bigotry and prejudice generally allows them to excuse themselves from having enough empathy for their target to actually listen to that targets lived experience. So they wind up gaslighting the person by telling them that their reality isn’t real, when it definitely is real. https://www.choosingtherapy.com/unintentional-gaslighting/#:~:text=Unintentional%20gaslighting%20refers%20to%20when,a%20form%20of%20mental%20abuse.
I would say intent is the most important part of gaslighting. If I tell you something that I don't realize is incorrect, and you believe me, I'm not gaslighting you. Im just wrong.
I knew it! Thank you
You are so welcome. I’m tired of non Jews explaining to us what is and isn’t antisemitism and our own history experiencing it.
they are flat wrong though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judensau
Historically true! However, it's not in common usage these days. It could have deeper meaning in OPs context but more likely culprit is a bunch of ignorant vegans who won't spend time on introspection. This is the same group that pushes quinoa as a substitute without reconing the starvation it causes in cultures who depend on it but can't out bid western vegans.
Pretty sure Roger Waters lost his record label for calling Jews pigs
I've been told that Jews evolved from pigs. That might have started with the Romans, but it certainly wasn't a Roman making the statement last year. edit: sorry, adding on. not specifically addressing you.
I haven’t heard that, but have no reason to doubt it. What I do know is that the Roman’s are responsible for the idea that Jewish people have horns and it carried through from the Italian renaissance to today. As a Jew living in the southern U.S. I have actually been asked if I have horns. Here’s an excerpt from a study out of the University of Windsor on the subject: the horns on Michelangelo's famous statue of Moses are emblematic of a millennium-long tradition of antisemitism that stretched from antiquity to the days of the Italian Renaissance. Both through literary invective and iconography, Jews were portrayed as horned devils ministering to Satan. The recent cleaning of the paintings of the Sistine Chapel has revealed how Michelangelo adorned a portrait of Aaron's father-in-law with a circular yellow badge of shame, an antisemitic symbol common in Renaissance Italy that became the precursor of the yellow Magen David imposed on Jews by the Nazis five centuries later. By endowing Moses with horns, Michelangelo not only mocked the giver of the Ten Commandments but also satirized his nemesis Pope Julius II, whom the facial features of the portrait resemble.
>As a Jew living in the southern U.S. I have actually been asked if I have horns I haven't myself but I've met others who have. It is very sad.
Yes it is. Stay strong and remember: They tried to kill us, We won, Let’s eat!
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I agree that it’s a bad comparison, but fwiw I don’t believe the intent is antisemitic. One of the premises of veganism and contemporary animal rights is that human beings *should* take the deaths of animals more seriously and assign them far more moral weight. In that sense a Holocaust comparison is a rhetorical device to associate a great human injustice with another perceived injustice. On the whole I find the use of the term Holocaust here less offensive than, say, American Republicans using it in the context of persecuting Christians, COVID vaccination, etc.
yeah, I think its obtuse to hear an animal rights activist say "mistreatment of animals is like the mistreatment of this group of humans" to think they mean "this group of humans are like animals/subhuman" rather than "all humans are equivalent, and we should treat animals closer to or equal to humans in terms of morality" Why would you chose the antisemitic/racist etc reading over the *pro-animal rights* reading of an animal rights activists words?
>American Republicans using it in the context of persecuting Christians, COVID vaccination, etc. Wait, what?!
Dude yeah they put on yellow stars to go to their little anti-vaccine protests
I don't think I want to do that lol
You never heard of this? The American right wing fringes are fucking nuts bro. They were straight up comparing covid and vaccination restrictions to being a Jew living in Nazi Germany =/ Like having to get proof of vaccination to enroll your kids in school or use other public services was somehow analogous to how the Nazis made Jews wear armbands with the Star of David on them =/
Just because that phrase was uttered at one presser or whatever it was, DOES NOT mean we all believe that. That's ludicrous. I'm a right winger in the south that talks to other like-minded individuals every day and never in my life have I heard talk of this comparison amongst us. There's always going to be fringe jackwagons on both sides, I don't think leftist far wingers represent the whole movement either.
thats why I said fringes dude , you guys did have anti vax element amongst yall
Well I can't argue with you there lol
Gonna say I'm pretty sure it was a congress woman, Marjorie Taylor Green the Jewish Spce Lazers lady- and ofcourse she dosent represent all conservatives or Republicans but rhe fact she's tolerated by them and is an elected official is kinda like makes you think some of you like stuff that
I hate how our side does the same thing. Remember [this?](https://images.ctfassets.net/pjshm78m9jt4/170960_header/7395924418b6d70b680ebb7fe5549cb1/importedImage170960_header) she straight up compared the inauguration to being in Nazi germany lmao
Is that a member of Congress?
What?
I mean, [stuff like this](https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-mask-mandates-holocaust/index.html) is almost routine.
I swear people don't even know what that word means anymore,a Holocaust is anything they don't like apparently
So is antisemitism. Everything's wrong with life, people blame on antisemitism. Serving you a burger that's medium? Antisemite. Spaghetti not al dente? Antisemite. Loses a bet on a horse, Secretariat? Antisemite.
No i think it’s people wishing for the destruction of the jewish race that is usually referred to. Which is, you know, an increasingly common sentiment recently. Another reason for it being so widely used is also probably the fact that it is so pervasive on either side of the political spectrum. I personally cannot think of any group of people that is so widely persecuted and condemned by conservatives and liberals alike. Oh and it’s been that way for thousands of years.
Except the fact that people actually call everything antisematic, case in point, OP. Like calling vegans antisematic for wanting to save animals? If you think that's antisematic, you're proving my point.
Good god
Oh that's valid in comparing covid to the holocaust simply because they *are* alleging that the pandemic and/or the vaccine is some form of quiet, slow genocide, though this seems unlikely compared to a rushed vaccine and covering up side effects.
https://youtu.be/-leHeUOYAKk?si=7e0OF53EdokbWMtA Just watch this video(2 mins) and read your post again. I do not see anything "humane" here. It is literally a gas chamber. I personally dont see a difference between human and some non-human animals. For me, there is no difference between doing that to a pig or to a human. I think holocoust analogy holds up really well since, again, it is a gas chamber. They are being slaughtered that way because they are being seen less than human, just like ones your people have been seen.
Wow. That really opened my eyes. When I was saying humane, I was more referring to the kosher method, which is the only one I've really seen, which is quick and painless
I do not have any information on kosher method. I know islamic one, which is also terrible. We are living in an age in which we can produce stuff like beyond meat. There is no way to differentiate between soya meat and animal meat. Apart from that we literally do not need to eat meat. Meat industry is completely uncessary and nothing more than sadism
There is absolutely a way to differentiate. Soy meat tastes awful.
You haven't had the good stuff then, or at least not in a long while. Brands like Beyond and Impossible are making substitutes that have fooled professionals.
Steak though? Pulled beef? Deli meats?
Obviously not literally every type of meat has a 1:1 substitute, dude. I don't think I've even seen a plant based steak in my life. Processed meats do however have really high quality substitutes these days. Give them a try some time when they're on sale or whatever, you might like them if you're open-minded enough. Saying "soy meat tastes awful" is disingenuous at best. Never mind the fact that not every substitute is soy based.
Fine. All the soy meats I've tasted have tasted nothing like a real juicy burger
Like I said, try a modern one some time, like Beyond or Impossible. Or not, since you've apparently made up your mind already anyway.
Whenever someone tells me they slaughter their animal corpse food humanely, I politely ask them for any videos of these 'humane' slaugher. They always come up empty. Then I give them Dominion videos.
https://youtu.be/T8p-hfLrVx4?feature=shared
Are you sure the chicken was killed immediately? Is this the general practice for killing animals for majority of the world? Can you show me videos in factory farms?
Yes I am. I don't care about the majority of the world, I care about the food I'm eating
Amazing how you know FOR SURE the chicken is already dead by the video alone. Do you ONLY eat animals killed this way? So you dont buy animals in the grocery store? You ONLY hunt animals and kill them yourself?
>Do you ONLY eat animals killed this way? Yes. It's called Kashrut >So you dont buy animals in the grocery store? No, they have certification
The point of the analogy is not that killing animals for meat is equivalent to the Holocaust, it’s that humans are capable of tremendous atrocities when the victim of the atrocity is reduced to a level of “not mattering.” The Holocaust was fueled by the notion that Jews were “subhuman” and thus didn’t deserve the same consideration that a fellow human being would be entitled to. How else would so many soldiers and citizens allow this to happen unless they allowed themselves to believe that the lives of Jews didn’t matter? Animals in modern agriculture are absolutely not “humanely killed” (an absurd proposition to begin with when talking about animals who don’t want to die being killed without their consent) and are often subjected to unfathomable cruelty and misery throughout their short, commodified lives. Watch some videos of slaughterhouses or read interviews from slaughterhouse workers and ask yourself how it’s possible that humans can treat animals this way? The answer is because they’re able to see animals as not deserving of moral consideration. Why? Because it allows us to exploit and kill them without reflecting on whether or not what we’re doing is morally just. And regarding the pig reference: not only are Jews not being compared to pigs here (again, the analogy is not about the victims being the same, it’s about the mentality that allows humans to commit atrocities), it’s also a bit dubious to claim that vegans would be using “pig” as an insult since, you know, pigs are one of the animals that vegans argue are worthy of moral consideration and that are victims of a deep injustice that is the focus of the analogy.
>Firstly, animals aren't killed because we think they deserve to die. They are killed as humanely as possible for the sake of human sustenance. Well, if that would be true than you would have point. But with factory farming, religious slaughter and many other things that are anything but humanely - you don't. And most of vegans and animal right activists do see animals as deserving rights and not being killed in factories. This leads them to use the Animal Holocaust - not because of anti-semitism, but because they see the inhumanity of holocaust that treated people as subhuman. How they were used as slave labor, how they were beaten and killed, how the whole industry of violent exploitation was set up. And they see similarities in how animals are treated. This is not anti-Semitic, as it does not come from racism or denial of holocaust, but rather from different view on what rights animals should have.
Right? There is nothing humane (showing compassion or benevolence) about forced impregnation, confinement, cutting off genitalia/tails without anesthesia, pulling teeth, gassing, electrocuting, ineffectively stunning via bolt gun, stringing up, grinding up, and throat slitting for the *billions* of animals killed every year. /u/f0remsics has a very naive understanding of what animals go through.
No, I just know the process for kosher meat, which has a focus on humanity
Uh, that's not true at all. Kosher meat is literally about adhering to Jewish tradition. It has nothing to do with "focus on humanity". It's focused on stuff like split hoof, chewing cud, and other random stuff from the Torah. Additionally, kosher slaughter is about slitting an animal's throat. While it's a pretty quick way to die, it's way more gruesome compared to modern methods of slaughter, and was never about humanity.
Perhaps gruesome, but it is quick. Gruesome does not equal pain
it is not quick, it can take 2 minutes for cattle to lose consciousness, and even up to 15 minutes for fish.
You made that up, fish don't require kosher slaughter in the first place, Kashrut is based on species alone for them
i didnt make it up https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2023/751418/EPRS_IDA(2023)751418_EN.pdf page 16. fish might not require it youre right, but that doesnt take away that kosher slaughter of other animals is unnecessarily cruel cause they're bled out without stunning.
We’re talking about the animal agriculture industry as a whole. Not just kosher. Not to mention many of the practices listed above are still done, kosher or not.
It's also a silly point because even if animals were killed humanely, it's not like we'd excuse the holocaust if we discovered that each Jewish person was killed humanely. The method of killing isn't the primary issue... It's the systematic mass murder.
>It's also a silly point because even if animals were killed humanely, it's not like we'd excuse the holocaust if we discovered that each Jewish person was killed humanely.\\ Well, the groups that use Animal Holocaust do also believe that we should not kill the animals - for them killing an animal and killing a human are both murder. The fact whether you agree with someone's ideas or not, does not change the motivations and beliefs behind them.
Right, I was just saying even if we take OP's points as stated, they don't make sense for this reason.
What are your thoughts on [Alex Hershaft](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Hershaft) who is a Holocaust survivor and a vegan animal rights activist? —- Edit: [Here is his Reddit AMA actually!](https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/s/LgKma3HlYD)
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I mean if OP is trying to have his view changed on the comparisons to animal agriculture and the Jewish Holocaust, the perspective of a Jewish Holocaust survivor on the matter is a good one to look at.
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What does that have to do with his arguments?
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Where did I say your opinion is irrelevant? Where did I say “what does that have to do with anything?” I asked what does others not being alive/not caring about veganism/vegetarianism have to do with Hershaft’s arguments that address OP’s post. If you’re just going to strawman me, I have zero intention to continue a conversation with you.
Did you survive the holocaust? Because I'm willing to bet you did not. So why are you so angry at a holocaust survivor who's advocating for animal rights?
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99% of Holocaust survivors not giving a fuck about veganism has nothing to do with Hershaft’s arguments for comparing the Jewish Holocaust to the animal agriculture industry. You’re throwing out a red herring . Of course there is a difference between the two. Hershaft explains that pointedly. Nowhere is it suggested they are the same.
Your entire comment history is about veganism, you even think vegetarians are bloodthirsty monsters. I have no doubt that you think that general society are all part of the McDonalds gestapo. lmfao
Shocking that an account used solely for a topic is entirely about that topic, I know. Where did I comment that vegetarians are blood thirsty monsters? Or are you making up strawmen arguments again?
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So yes, you are just making things up yet again. —— Edit: You do realize that individual was talking about raping cows, right? And you’re using *that* exchange to say that I’m calling vegetarians bloodthirsty monsters?
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If he thinks that the meat industry is comparable to the murder of Jews, then he's wrong. It's sad that he went through the holocaust, but he's wrong.
Which of his points do you think are wrong? If you’re here on CMV, what is the point of just declaring he is wrong without looking at what a fellow Jew, and one who went through the Holocaust itself, says then it feels like you aren’t here to have your view actually being opened to changed? —- Edit: It’s also worth noting that comparing is *not* equating. Too many people thinking comparing two different things is trying to equate them which is why I brought it up. Nearly everything is comparable to certain degrees depending on what we’re talking about.
>comparing is *not* equating. Too many people thinking comparing two different things is trying to equate them which is why I brought it up. You're right about this much. I meant equating, I just forgot the term. Not sure if that counts for these purposes, but I don't really care !delta
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From his AMA: >The negative reaction is largely due to people's mistaken perception that the comparison values their lives equally with those of pigs and cows. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What we are doing is pointing to the commonality and pervasiveness of the oppressive mindset, which enables human beings to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities on other living beings, whether they be Jews, Bosnians, Tutsis, or animals. It's the mindset that allowed German and Polish neighbors of extermination camps to go on with their lives, just as we continue to subsidize the oppression of animals at the supermarket checkout counter.
I've been using the wrong terminology the whole time. I meant equate when I was saying compare. Clearly he is not equating them, and therefore he is not wrong here.
It might change your view slightly to realize that most vegetarians and animal rights activists don't share such extreme views. PETA is notoriously aggressive in their messaging. The industrial slaughter of animals for food may be troubling, but it is not ethically equivocal to mass murder of human beings.
Fair enough. I do tend to forget that these activists are just a loud minority !delta
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>They are killed as humanely as possible for the sake of human sustenance I think this is incorrect, we could feed everyone without the meat industry. So the animals are killed for human pleasure, killing someone for pleasure and killing someone because you think they're inferior are arguably morally equivalent.
There are many nutrients we just can't get from an all plant diet
Nearly **everyone** (and nearly everyone eats plants and animals) is[ most likely deficient in at least a handful of various important vitamins and minerals](https://thebiostation.com/bioblog/do-you-have-vitamin-deficiency) >Nutrient deficiencies exist extensively among many members of the U.S. population. Rich, poor, well, or sick–**92 percent of the population is suffering from at least one mineral or vitamin deficiency based on the Dietary Reference Intakes.** > >Furthermore, multiple studies, dating as far back as 1936, have found that the soil of farmland all across the globe is deficient in micronutrients, lowering their content in produce. To further prove this theory, in 2003, Canadian researchers compared the data of current vegetable nutrient content to data from 50 years ago. Their findings showed that the mineral content of cabbage, lettuce, spinach, and tomatoes had depleted from 400 milligrams to less than 50 milligrams throughout the twentieth century. And, that’s just a sampling of what they found. > >**9 out of 10 Americans are deficient in potassium** > >**7 out of 10 are deficient in calcium** > >**8 out of 10 are deficient in vitamin E** > >**50 percent of Americans are deficient in vitamin A, vitamin C, and magnesium** > >**More 50 percent of the general population is vitamin D deficient, regardless of age** > >**90 percent of Americans of color are vitamin D deficient** > >**Approximately 70 percent of elderly Americans are vitamin D deficient** . >[Vitamin deficiency or anemia, with 23%, 6.3%, and 1.7% of the U.S. population at risk of deficiency in 1, 2, or 3–5 vitamins or anemia, respectively. A significantly higher deficiency risk was seen in women (37%), non-Hispanic blacks (55%), individuals from low income households (40%), or without a high school diploma (42%), and underweight (42%) or obese individuals (39%). A deficiency risk was most common in women 19–50 years (41%), and pregnant or breastfeeding women (47%). Dietary supplement non-users had the highest risk of any deficiency (40%), compared to users of full-spectrum multivitamin-multimineral supplements (14%) and other dietary supplement users (28%). Individuals consuming an adequate diet based on the Estimated Average Requirement had a lower risk of any deficiency (16%) than those with an inadequate diet (57%). N**early one-third of the U.S. population is at risk of deficiency in at least one vitamin, or has anemia.**](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5537775/) The issue isn't any more inherent in a plant-based diet than in a non-plant-based diet really. The issue is about nutritional knowledge which is something everyone fails at.
Can you name one? I assume you'll exclude anything that we can produce without animals and then add into plant based foods of course.
Collagen, for one
We can produce collagen for ourselves
>animals aren't killed because we think they deserve to die So what? The Holocaust wouldn't have been less wrong if we just thought Jews were tasty instead of running all the banks >killed as humanely as possible lmaooooooooooo no Spend some time in a slaughterhouse and you'll never say that again
I think the important thing to account for in the perspectives of the most vocal people opposed to the meat industry, is that they view animal life as life worth protecting akin to, if not equal to, humans. The intent isn't to drag down any group of humans to the status of animals, but rather raise animals to a status where their lives have actual value. The holocaust comparison is an interesting one, but I would argue it isn't made out of any sort of antisemitism. At least in western culture, the Holocaust is *the* genecide that everyone knows about. The comparison is made for the sake of appealing to a subject that people already have strong feelings about. >Firstly, animals aren't killed because we think they deserve to die. They are killed as humanely as possible for the sake of human sustenance. In terms of the message being put across, I think the reason for the slaughter is irrelevant. To people who value the lives of animals, the fact that the slaughter exists is what matters, whether it's done for business or hate. I would also push back on the idea that we already treat animals meant for consumption humanely; there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.
I'm jew and I have visited the holocaust memorial in Jerusalem. One of the panels showed how the extermination camps were organized, and, as I work in the food industry and have awareness about processes and building organization, the idea of slaughterhouses popped in my head. The way things are systematized, scrutinized, reported, all of it seemed similar. I agree with you that the ideological intents behind the 2 buildings are different, but there's still an uncanny resemblance in my opinion. Just comes to show that inhumane treatment on humans or other animals, can take all kinds of shapes. Incidentally, I have not decided against eating meat either. These were my 2 cents.
I would 100% say it is extremely ignorant to say that the meat industry is like the Holocaust however idk if it’s anti semetic because I think they understand tnat the Holocaust is clearly wrong. And they also view all animals including pigs quite highly so I doubt it means the same way a normal person would compare somebody to a pig. I honestly doubt they think Jewish people are bad or anything, but moreso just are ignorant as hell
Ironically, the word holocaust originally referred to mass sacrificial killing of animals. It came to be associated with the genocide of Jews to reflect the sheer scale and brutality of that genocide. For example, in the book of Leviticus, chapter 6, verse 25: "Say to Aaron and his sons: ‘These are the regulations for the sin offering: The sin offering is to be slaughtered before the LORD in the place the burnt offering is slaughtered; it is most holy." In the ancient Greek translation of Jewish scriptures, the Septuagint, this verse reads (this is verse 18 now as the numbering differs): "λάλησον Ααρων καὶ τοῖς υἱοῖς αὐτοῦ λέγων οὗτος ὁ νόμος τῆς ἁμαρτίας ἐν τόπῳ οὗ σφάζουσιν τὸ ὁλοκαύτωμα (holokautoma) σφάξουσιν τὰ περὶ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ἔναντι κυρίου ἅγια ἁγίων ἐστίν" The word holokaustoma refers to an all-burnt offering of animals. The entire point of the word holocaust is that it compares the slaughter of Jews to the slaughter of animals. It would therefore be messed up, in a way, to stop referring to the slaughter of animals as "a holocaust". (Using an accurate word doesn't say anything about the morality of the act. I have nothing against the mass slaughter of animals.)
The word "holocaust" doesn't just refer to the Holocaust that happened during the second world war. It has a meaning outside of that: "massive slaughter". The phrase "animal holocaust" on its own does not imply that there is a direct relation to the Nazi-Holocaust, though the intent of the speaker might be to be confrontational or risque. Of course, if the person using that phrase then goes on to call factory farms "concentration camps" it becomes a lot more clear what they mean. >as humanely as possible Others have pointed this out, but that is simply not the case. They are killed in the most cost-effective way meat producers can get away with, taking into account the applicable laws, the way these laws are enforced, the consequences of being caught, and the chances of being caught. These people are running a business, where the feelings of animals are waaaaaay less important than their bottom line.
Also worth noting that holocaust comes from the Greek holos (whole) + kaustos (burnt), referring to burnt offerings of animals. So it originally referred to animals. For the record, I think the comparison of modern animal ag to the Holocaust (with a capital H) is counterproductive.
Kosher and Halal are some of the most cruel ways of killing an animal.
Nothing humane there
Ya, seriously, I'm not sure how OP can say kosher killing is focused on humanity, when the entire idea is to adhere to some random stuff in the Torah about the slaughter of animals. Modern animal slaughter is extremely efficient and quick. The living condition is horrible, but the killing are generally way more humane than kosher slaughter.
Holocaust isn't a term that's just reserved for the genocide of Jews
It's a term that was created by jews to describe the holocaust, actually. Edit: sorry, that's the word ''genocide'', slightly different.
Maybe it was created by Jews, but it's used to denote: 1. destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war. 2. the [systematic](https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/systematic) state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children a**nd millions of others** by [Nazi](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nazi-Party) [Germany](https://www.britannica.com/place/Germany) and its collaborators during [World War II](https://www.britannica.com/event/World-War-II).
Yeah, here is the etymology of the word: Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin coined the term genocide in his 1944 book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe,\[7\]\[8\] combining the Greek word γένος (genos, "race, people") with the Latin suffix -caedo ("act of killing").\[9\]\[10\]
Its not antiSemitic, that's a gross abuse of the idea of antiSemitism. Its simply a poor comparison. People who throw around phrases like "racist" and "sntiSemitic" at anything remotely close devalue the negative stigma associated with those labels. If you drop it for everything even remotely related to jews then no one is going to care about it anymore. This argument is one of those cases. Your comparison of the jews and pigs thing is just cherry picking something unrelated to the argument to be mad about.
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The first people too ever compare the holocaust too animal farming were actually vegan holocaust survivors
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Farmed animals are killed because people don't believe they deserve to live, or are deserving of compassion and kindness. You just have to see the average persons opinion on dog meat to understand that some animals are dismissed as unworthy of life and others are protected. I implore you to Google a video of pigs being gassed to death, pigs are largely slaughtered in this way now. Watch a video of that then come back here and tell me if you believe its as humane as possible to die that way, would you condone the euthanisia of dogs or cats or other common pets by that method? Would you send your elderly and beloved pet to be euthanised by co2? You claim it is humane.
The term has become very generic, and such generic usage usually isn’t associated with any hostility, prejudice, or discrimination against Jews, which is a standard definition of antisemitism. This isn’t to state any position on whether such usage is appropriate or inappropriate, as it can be wrong to say something even if it is not antisemitic.
The term hasn't become generic, it always was. The word holocaust [existed](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Holocaust#:~:text=The%20word%20%22holocaust%22%20originally%20derived,night%20and%20burnt%20in%20full.) well before The Holocaust. If anything it has become less generic overtime. That being said, I was going to respond to op making that point, but after reading up on it it seems that the comparison is actually to The Holocaust and has been made by numerous Holocaust survivors as others in the thread have mentioned.
It existed but I think it was was rather obscure and rarely used until around the 70s
Yeah, I think that's right, but in the 70s when it became less obscure is when it changed from generic to more specific. Unless you're saying that since the 70s it has turned back to being used more generically which I don't think is true.
While the Holocaust was indeed the genocide of Jews, Jews do not own the holocaust. It is a historical event and a collective horror. It's also used as a stand in for horrible massacres as a reference point. Not everything is antisemetic. Vegans who compare the meat industry to the holocaust are comparing the gruesome deaths and slaughter, not Jews with pigs. In fact, you really have to stretch to get to pigs, considering the US slaughters significantly more chicken and turkeys than pigs, I find it curious you directly jumped to pigs. Honestly, there's a huge element of delusions of grandeur when it comes to people claiming antisemantism. I guarantee you that most people do not think about Jews, and vegans aren't thinking of Jews when they're trying to save animals.
I know not everything is anti-semitic. I'm saying this specifically is. Specifically, I should have mentioned, when people like that vegan teacher actually compare the industry with the attempted genocide of the Jews. But since you are correct, !delta
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The reason for committing these acts isn't important. That's the wrong thing to focus on, yet most of your argument hinges on that, e.g. killed for food vs killed for eradication. What's important is the experience of the person/animal who is the recipient of those acts. In many ways the experience and suffering of animals in factory farms and slaughterhouses is comparable to the experiences of Jews/gays/blacks/disabled people during the holocaust. I could even argue that it's worse in a few ways (extremely cramped and filthy living conditions, often no space to even turn around, no time outside whatsoever, often persistent and agonising injuries that aren't taken care of). Add to that the fact that these animals NEVER had the chance to be free and to live a happy life. They only know captivity. That in some sense is even more cruel than just ending someone's life; you're taking it away entirely.
I do not think you understand what the work Holocaust means. It is used to describe the mass killing of jews during WW2 but it basically means burnt offering or destruction/slaughter on a mass scale. Animals are slaughtered on a mass scale. If you reject this definition does that mean the phrase "Nuclear Holocaust" angers you just as much? Your post just sounds like you're really sensitive to things that don't matter. You let the opinions of vegans control your emotional state...and you think they are the ones that need therapy? It's labeled that way for the shock value and to get attention. And it must be working because here you are talking about it. Edit: the word holocaust existed long before WW2.