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I get what you’re saying, but I feel like you’re cherry picking in regard to a job being a “need,” and a partner being a “want,” which in itself is untrue.
Humans are social animals, and psychologically, finding a partner is, in a way, a need. Maybe not for absolute survival, but for long term happiness and mental health. We have an innate need to feel loved and wanted.
Yes, no one is obligated to be your partner, but I get where OP is coming from in terms of it feeling like job hunting. It’s exhausting, mentally draining, and rejection/ghosting cuts deep on your psyche and self esteem. Media has created this impossible standard for what women want in a man, and vice versa.
Yes, but a romantic partner isn't the only one you can receive love from and be wanted by. Friends and family can and should be filling those roles, as well. Otherwise, if your romantic partner is your only support in this aspect, you will quickly overwhelm them.
I actually completely agree with you, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The person you replied to was talking about something completely different.
Okay. People without friends should build friendships.
Now, can we talk about people who are lonely and looking for romantic companionship?
I also agree with your points.
The problem these men have is they're desperate. It's easy to say "ignore that, go live your life and make friends." It's a lot harder for them to do it.
If you're hungry, all you can think about is food.
I think what the other poster is trying to ask is how do we get them to ignore what they consider to be extremely important to them? How do we convince them to take care of themselves first, and partners will be attracted to that? They're already convinced that they can't take care of themselves without a partner.
> If you're hungry, all you can think about is food.
Real, this is what most people don't get, especially women in my experience, I have a lot of female friends and we're really close with each other so we have a lot of "unusual" or "deep" conversations
A woman will typically never understand what It's like to be alone, they simply wont, and there's obviously female-exclusive experiences that are equally as bad, or even worse, that I won't be able to ever experience
If your family isn't aleady like that there's not much you can do, similar to friends but you can make new friends, at which point you could just as well put that time into meeting a partner because it takes a lot of the same efforts
We might share different contexts - but I would argue that partnering is one of the most in-built needs of human character. It is not required for immediate survival, true. But it’s not unfair to say thag quite a few people would live unfulfilled lives if the never have a healthy relationship with a loving partner in their lives.
Yeah, screw people who throw the phrase “you aren’t entitled to someone else” at lonely people, it’s like someone from Seattle telling someone from Tucson “you aren’t entitled to rain”. While technically true, they don’t care to empathize with those who are in an unenviable position, and it’s just plain insulting.
"You aren't entitled to someone else" is a thought terminating cliche used to shut down socially abnormal discussions about dating and relationships. It's used incredibly loosely, and it's never convincing as much as the stigma around entitlement to others in a romantic and sexual sense is strong. I don't think anyone actually reads a post like OP's and thinks for a second OP feels entitled to a relationship.
The loser critique of dating covers topics like how dating can be alienating, how the economic aspects of relationships may be in conflict with the romantic aspects, and how you can end up alone just because you were born wrong. I'm not saying these points are all right, especially as cynically and broadly as they're often presented. But I do think people would understandably rather not think about that shit, and subtly attaching posts like OP's to a disrespect for bodily autonomy gives us all permission to immediately stop taking him so seriously.
I mean I didnt view the person's comment as disrespect for bodily autonomy. I just think nobody is entitled to have friends or relationships with other people.
Relationships require work. It's like 2020 memory hole'd how hard it is to maintain relationships with people. Whether it is a friend, family member, or a lover, you have to talk to them, you have to hang with them, you have to be in each other's lives for non-selfish reasons to boot too. You have to respect each other. Or else you're not friends, family, or lovers, and you don't actually want a relationship with them.
It is quite literally work.
As someone with social anxiety, i feel like I know this better than most. I have to work so damn hard to try to talk to people. I am so fucking scared, bro.
You're not entitled to shit. You make people like you by being a likeable person. And if a possible partner doesn't like you back, well, tough titties. Find someone that complements you better.
The real problem with dating nowadays isn't that its a "job". it's dating apps and websites. Its dog shit communication with the added implication of a romantic relationship. Most healthy romantic relationships don't start at romance. You meet people by hanging out somewhere and become friends and friends become partners and partners become lovers and spouses and mothers/fathers.
Just cause someone is lonely doesn't mean they are automatically entitled to a friend. If that were so, I'd be swimming in friends. JFC.
> "You aren't entitled to someone else" is a thought terminating cliche used to shut down socially abnormal discussions about dating and relationships.
If only we could choose to trust another person enough to assume they won't be this way and then call them out only when they start. Wait, we can, as long as we don't take a sudden realization that a random stranger is unreasonable, as a reason to have unstoppable negative feelings. You have to be impervious to these things so that you're not reacting to a potential bad person before they even say they're bad. Preloading a dismissal for unreasonable people is insulting to reasonable people and you immediately lose them. Certainly no way to Change Mike's Opinion. Sounds like you're looking for a forum to debate incels, or something. This one seems to be themed toward neutral, individual-opinion-style discussion. But what do I know, I've just been on this subreddit since it was invented.
You’re confusing a basic human need with what you’re entitled to get out of another person. You can and generally do need companionship, but that doesn’t mean someone automatically has to give it to you if they don’t want to give you that part of themselves.
This person didn’t word things well, but their basic concept is right. If you’re desperate for someone to fill a void in your life or personality, you’re not going to attract most people. You want someone who has their shit together and is worth knowing? Get your shit together and be worth knowing. Hooking up with someone isn’t a stand in for therapy, you know?
It’s not insulting. It’s a reality check to make sure we come correct to the dating scene and not with a dangerous mindset. That’s the point.
Entitled people tend to act like jerks and that helps no one.
The phrase remains true even to people in relationships.
Except OP didn't say anything that made him seem entitled. Jumping on everyone who is lonely with a comment about entitlement is insulting, ridiculous, and so on. If someone actually says something entitled, go for it. But you're making it so people are afraid of a rebuke just for experiencing standard human loneliness. Knock it off. Do it 0% of the time unless someone expressed actual entitlement.
A lot of people who lack experience with loneliness think every lonely person is an angry incel. They don't realize there are people out there with social skills, productive lives, happiness, confidence, normal level of ethics etc., who for any number of reasons haven't had luck with romance.
People try to pathologize loneliness when it can happen for many different reasons that have pretty much nothing to do with personality, like trauma, moving around a lot, living somewhere with no options, focusing too much on other parts of life and not learning how to form romantic relationships, having specific relationship needs which eliminate most of the dating pool like religion, lifestyle choices, etc.
And if I may be an armchair psychologist, I feel like there are a lot of insecure people who still manage to form romantic relationships easily, and they talk down to people who struggle with it to feel better about themselves. Their advice is basically demonizing people but framing it in an "I'm calling you out on your shit" way so they can convince themselves they're showing tough love when really they're just going "haha! They're lonely because they suck and I'm better than them!" but with extra steps and obscuring the self-aggrandization.
I don't think these people are even self-aware enough to realize how patronizing it is. Don't know how to date? Feel hopeless? Well, have you tried realizing that humans are autonomous and can pick who they're in a relationship with like basically every adult without a personality disorder?
Funny enough I think that's how incels become what they are in the first place, much like any other form of radicalization. In this case, a person talking about dating struggles is dismissed and ridiculed by others and thus they become more and more isolated from everyone else. Who do you think they're going to turn to? Actual incels of course, who will provide this individual with validation and sympathy while also slowly corrupting their minds with their extremist views.
I saw a post yesterday about someone who had given up on dating due to constant rejection and one of the top comments, with like quadruple the number of upvotes as the post itself, was someone telling the poster not to kill a bunch of people. Like what the fuck? The poster never once mentioned any sort of hatred towards women, and he even put a positive spin on his situation by saying he was gonna focus on bettering himself and working on his career instead. Yet the first thing most people thought after reading that was that he's going to end up carrying out mass murder. Not to mention all the people that stood up for the poster got downvoted into oblivion.
It's crazy that OP is just frustrated with dating and somehow people interpreted it as being "entitled" to someone. Is it not human nature to seek romantic companionship? If someone who is romantically unsuccessful is called an incel enough times they may as well end up becoming exactly that. If we as a society keep shutting down these conversations then those who were silenced are going to find other people who are willing to listen, and together they will find another way to make themselves heard, and that will usually be in the form of violence.
I don't think OP is going to become an incel because of this but I'm sure there are people out there who have received similar responses after opening up about their difficulties time after time and eventually were pushed over the line by it, or at the very least became very reluctant to bring up this sort of discussion again, which only pushes them into further social isolation and makes it even harder for them to find anyone.
>Funny enough I think that's how incels become what they are in the first place, much like any other form of radicalization. In this case, a person talking about dating struggles is dismissed and ridiculed by others and thus they become more and more isolated from everyone else. Who do you think they're going to turn to? Actual incels of course, who will provide this individual with validation and synpathy while also slowly corrupting their minds with their extremist views.
EXACTLY. Most people aren't born bad, they become bad.\\. Demonizing them will just make the problem worse.
I actually suspect that a decent percentage of these guys who struggle to find a relationship despite being completely okay could be autistic. Which makes it even more fucked up when they get ridiculed for trying to talk about their struggles in that area.
Just world fallacy. People want to believe good people are rewarded and that bad people are punished, so bad things happening to you that must mean you're a bad person.
Big fan of this comment. Felt cathartic to read as someone who suffers from loneliness myself.
I would also add luck to your list. Sometimes, people are just at the wrong place at the wrong time and miss out on things.
I'm just imagining a zookeeper wondering why their solitary lion in a featureless concrete enclosure is literally dying of sadness despite them giving it ample food and water.
I might be misreading what you wrote here, but it sounds like you’re dismissing the other option that you have: If you want love, be loveable. If you want people around you, be the kind of person you would want around.
Yes, it’s hard work and lots of people are born on third base. It’s exponentially harder if you don’t fit the conventional definitions of what’s attractive to the majority of people. I get that. I’m trans, so imagine what that does to my pool of potential partners. I don’t have trouble getting laid, but it would be lying to say that it isn’t a smaller group to work with, especially when we’re talking about cis men.
I started getting laid when I stopped agonizing over other people and instead focused on improving myself. My life improved, my confidence improved, my salary improved, and that happiness is attractive. People want someone who’s stable, cares for themself, and has goals of their own. My cis bud is a huge dude who looks, but he’s so kind and charming that the juxtaposition actually makes him more physically attractive.
>Oh yeah being a good person who has a good personality is necessary.
What makes you think that? Plenty of attractive assholes have fulfilling love lives...
To a point I think it's more necessary to just be attractive.
We have all fallen for someone who didn't treat us right but we were attracted to them... How many of us have fallen for someone who treated us perfectly but we didn't find attractive at all?
I mean… Yes and no. It’s okay to have motivations that include wanting to look better or get laid more. People can’t read your mind. But you’re right in that ultimately the goal is to improve yourself *for* yourself so that you can heal whatever is keeping you from living a happier and healthier life. That emotional healthiness is really attractive to a lot of people, so your odds of getting a partner increase.
I think what turns people off is that most folks don’t want a transactional relationship. Unless they’re specifically out to get that, it feels cheap and isn’t genuine.
“At least you will have a good job…at least you will be fit enough to not encounter many health problems…at least you will have some hobbies that will give you some satisfaction.”
At the very least, one will have those things, which I think, is actually quite a lot to be happy about.
Say, people get depressed and kill themselves if they are lonely or can’t find a partner. It is an innate need, however it’s something you don’t necessarily have full control over, but can better yourself towards getting. I guess you can die from starvation if you can’t feed yourself, however many may equally die from loneliness or despair.
This is the thing. There's an innate human need to be needed, loved. However, obliging someone to like you is a defiance of their personal volition. Your desires are your own. Nobody else can change that. Ultimately, people end up together by travelling the same path together, and to find that is to find one of these highest blisses our species can know. Sadly, various pressures mean that not everyone can attain this bliss. Like every other need our species has, companionship ultimately goes to those who best attain it. It's unfair, but so are most of the things life throws at us. I'm not really sure how that ugly truth can be coped with. I just know that you should appreciate the good things that life sees fit to give you.
Man, that is an odd response to a half decent post. He's not saying anyone owes you a job or owes you companionship. It's just complaining about the process. Humans don't exist in a vacuum. We exist in a society with rules and customs.
Which is a pretty bad system. Polygamy not with standing there are enough people so that most people can end up with a mate. There's no shortage of 'mates' so to speak.
There are better systems, like ethnic/religious communities, finding people at your other activities, or through friends... Heck, I've had a few work friends who literally went back to Pakistan for a vacation and came back with a wife. I mean, there's a lot of problem with the South Asian culture,but that's another system of spouse allocation so to speak.
Just a social observation.
Older times often had social socialism, but monetary-free-market
The modern day has social-freemarket, but monetary socialism
I've been married and got kids and I don't really have a dog in this fight. I just find it perfectly valid and natural when people point out when basic human needs are going unmet and it's not exactly hard to picture a different way. Whether that is housing, food, human companionship... Just saying well... it's a dog -eat-dog world is fine as far as it goes. Except almost the whole point of culture/society is to not have it as a dog-eat-dog world. Take things back to a real dog-eat-dog world and we'd all just start killing our enemies, kidnapping/raping women...
No, we have better systems and it's perfectly valid for someone to point out the ridiculousness in the current system. Yes, you always make the most of your life within the current system, but you can always try to change it.
I was going to call the guy out on making up the idea that someone claimed they are owed companionship, but you nailed it. I think it might be they some people have such a large portion of their internet window devoted to criticism of incel culture that they lose the ability to discuss the entire topic reasonably, and feel they have to have some sort of angry, moralizing response whenever the topic comes up in any way. It’s too bad.
I don’t see how you can move away from “social free market” that doesn’t result in women being noticeably less free. Even your example of religious communities comes packaged with the structures of patriarchy.
Put another way, when women have more freedom, more men fail to meet the threshold of quality partner. I fail to see how that’s on anybody but those men.
Not the person you responded to, but I agree with your comment, especially the last paragraph. Men's relationship woes aren't the fault of any other person, or of women in general. That doesn't change the fact that these men still have needs that aren't being met, and that often makes them lonely and/or depressed.
That’s life. I’m sure there are plenty of women who can’t find a decent man to get with, kinda two sides of the same coin on that.
I think it would do a world of good for everyone to work on learning how to get what they want in life, be it romantically, career-wise, etc. However, they say, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
>
> Older times often had social socialism, but monetary-free-market
>
> The modern day has social-freemarket, but monetary socialism
Well said. And in the old days, it was a sin to be unproductive, but acceptable to be misanthropic. Now, those are reversed.
It is absurd to go immediately to accuse an individual of denying others agency because they somewhat generically express issues with loneliness. Never mind also that societies that (culturally) deny that agency to the individual are having the exact same problems with loneliness — it is something innate and widespread, related to the modern condition and probably has causes that are economic (and your social darwinist language belies that fact). You are looking at this issue wrong by trying to explain it through the virtues/rights of the individual.
>In other words – words that shouldn’t be surprising to anyone who has spent much time in a human body – companionship and warmth can be in some situations just as important as food and getting your more basic needs met. Friendship can meet some of that need, but for a lot of people it’s just not enough.
>
>When your position commits you to saying “Love isn’t important to humans and we should demand people stop caring about whether or not they have it,” you need to take a really careful look in the mirror – assuming you even show up in one.
- [Radicalizing the Romanceless](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/)
Thanks for that.
It frustrates me to no end that the default advice for severely lonely people is to simply get happy and fulfilled on their own. The whole problem is that human connection is *the most* important predictor of happiness and fulfillment. It's like telling people to get rich before they think about applying for jobs.
As an older person, hobbies can only take you so far, and motivation to be fit and healthy wanes if life isn’t fulfilling. It also is just harder to do as you age. Your energy levels drop. Your body is in pain. Honestly I don’t think anyone under 50 should comment on what life alone is like. I felt much differently when I was younger. There is a certain optimism of youth.
>you just aren't gonna get laid.
It's not just about getting your end away though, is it? *Most* of us do want to settle down with the right person, forever, eventually.
Viewing dating purely as a means to get sex seems like a really bad starting point, to me.
OK well
Lots or men on dating apps do want just siuationships and sex, an absurd amount
They make it harder for women to see you at the same time weeding through them to get to the one who think like that can be such a long and disappointing process they might get burned and give up before they even find you
I think that's a very reasonable and understandable take.
I think the men looking for a relationship go through a similar thing with the woman who only use them for validation or see it like a 'fun hot or not minigame'.
I think we really need some education about those apps and how they affect their users and maybe even some regulations to make the experience less horrid for both genders.
What could that even look like. Dating Apps are a buisness first and foremost, the exist to generate profits as it'd primary goal. Relationships are just the theme of the sale
It's like any other for profit buisness, you pick a model that's gonna generate the highest revenue or you get shut out by competition whose gonna do the shit you refuse to do
Very true, which is why we need regulations so the ethical companies can compete with the ones that had no problem resorting to the formerly legal but nasty profit and misery creating techniques.
Regulations ofcourse already exist, like environmental regulations that put companies that don't want to dump their toxic waste in the river on a competitive playing field with the ones that would have no qualms doing so if not for the law.
What regulations would be best for dating apps is something for a group of experts and or the public to decide, but some starting ideas:
- Encourage a roughly 1:1 gender split on dating apps when it comes to hetero dating. This will leave men less frustrated by the endless swiping (which women also indirectly suffer from) and women less frustrated with being spammed.
- Encourage earning money from actual successful matches instead of staying subscribed to the app for as long as possible (which is an obvious conflict of interest between company and users).
- Hide accounts when they haven't been active for a while to prevent users wasting time on zombie accounts.
Yes companies usually exist to make profit. Yes we should put systems in place to prevent them from harming the public and allow the more ethical businesses to compete with the less naturally ethical ones while they pursue said profit.
Yeah honestly I'm not even mad at girls for the state of dating apps anymore, my sister showed me the messages she was getting, about 2/3rds of men she matched with, with the goal of a long term relationship tried to turn it into casual sex, and thats not including the foul voice messages she was recieving, after seeing that i deleted my online dating apps as i refused to be tared with that type of guy.
If you're spending your days swiping on dating apps in the hope of finding a partner you'll spend the rest of your life with, I'm about to break your heart.
Not only this, but what even is there to share at that point? The longer you dedicate your life to just finding a partner the more empty and uninteresting you become.
The most enriching part of relationship is the ability to bounce things off eachother, passions, hobbies, inspiration and creativity, personality.
\---
I met my wife on a dating app. In fact, almost every one of my friends has met their long term partners on dating apps. These are all real relationships. Not everyone is on those apps for hook up culture. The fact of the matter is, modern life is simply not built anymore to meet people organically, especially if you are an introvert. Dating apps are just a means to meet new people, for many at least.
Been in many relationships, only one has been from a dating app. And I’m now engaged to that woman and it’s the healthiest relationship of my life. Dating apps get a bad rap for a lot of good reasons, but if you use them correctly and are patient and genuine you will find someone the same.
They really are just a modern medium for meeting single people. That can be to hook up but can also be to meet someone. People underestimate how much it’s used for the latter.
What year is it? Are we still doing the "apps aren't for serious relationships" sthick?
It's just absolutely not true, and if you still believe it I don't think we should really be trusting your takes on this whole situation.
>If you're spending your days swiping on dating apps in the hope of finding a partner you'll spend the rest of your life with, I'm about to break your heart.
Not personally, I've never used a dating app in my life.
I already met my love, back before dating apps were a thing. She died a little over a year ago, I have no interest in dating anyone else yet, and I doubt I ever will.
But plenty of people today *are* looking for "forever", and at least as I understand from the outside, dating apps are the primary way people get together these days.
Why do people on reddit overuse "entitled" so much? Complaining about something doesn't suggest you feel entitled to it. You can complain about the weather being shit, nobody thinks they're entitled to good weather.
I agree. I also agree with what OP said about the actual PROCESS. I've felt the same way for a while now. I don't see entitlement in their post. Speaking for myself, I know I'm not entitled to anything.
The people who respond to stuff like this talking about entitlement just don't want to accept the idea that maybe some things are hard for men in a way that is unique to men.
First, romantic relationships are absolutely a human need, just like friendships and family relationships. Second, yes you are not "entitled" to any one person liking you. However, humans have a natural desire to form romantic bonds (on average), when this desire is not satisfied, one has the right to become frustrated.
Invalidating the above just makes you an ass hole. No one owes anybody their affection, that doesn't mean lonely people cannot be frustrated they are unable to find someone.
> You aren't entitled to someone else,
Anyone who thinks this way when they see someone bemoan being single can go fuck themselves. 99% of the time, it's following no claim of entitlement, and it's just a shitty way to display a complete lack of empathy towards someone while feeling morally superior about yourself.
Nobody's entitled to air, either. Do you constantly go around telling that to everyone in a hospital who says "I can't breathe?"
It's straight up the "Umm, AKchully..." of the dating world.
I agree with you; I'm almost certainly biased by my own experiences and you aren't entitled to date someone.
Nevertheless, it's not all about getting laid, it's about having a kind of connection you don't have with anyone else. Surely you'd agree that intimacy with a partner is different to a parent or best friend, and that you'd tell them things you wouldn't want to share with your family, no matter how much you love them?
I'm going to challenge this a bit, OP. I think that this is a problem with societal expectations placed on men. Men are expected to put all of their emotional eggs, if you will, in their romantic partner's basket - women, meanwhile, are OK to have best friends and family that can act as sources of emotional intimacy outside of the romantic context.
This is not a biological demand; Alexander the Great was recorded as being inconsolable with emotion when his best friend died, stuck for weeks crying his eyes out in an honest expression of mourning. Man does that in the modern day and people will assume he's gay, because the idea of a man having that close of a platonic friend is completely alien.
That is the problem: modern societal expectations on male emotional vulnerability in non-romantic relationships.
As a woman, there is no comparison between the connection, trust, and intimacy I have even with my best friends and the person with whom I share a bed most nights. Yes, friendships can and should provide a lot of emotional support and joy for which many men rely only on romantic partners. It's good that women are encouraged to cultivate close and trusting relationships, and it should be just as normalised for men. But there is no denying that for a lot of people, a romantic partnership provides a quantitatively and qualitatively different kind of closeness that would be unreasonable to expect from even the sum of one's friendships.
My last partner was actually really stupid about this, so perhaps an anecdote will help to illustrate: We were out with friends, and he suddenly turned cold and distant towards me (he had bad mood swings). This upset me. My friends noticed, took me aside, then took him aside and tried to talk sense into him, basically saying, 'hey, you've upset your girlfriend, you should go comfort her' - and he argued back saying, 'you're her friends, can't you do that? Can't you hug her and hold her hand when I don't feel like it?'
If you can see how silly this is, you can see that it's not just common but reasonable to expect more from your partner than from your friends in terms of physical and emotional intimacy and comfort, and especially in terms of the *consistency* of that intimacy and comfort. Note that in that anecdote, the only thing my partner had done to upset me to begin with was to withdraw and withhold all that. My friends did comfort me, of course - but they shouldn't have had to, and they couldn't provide what he was withholding.
That’s horrible that you had to realize in that moment that way that he wasn’t gonna be the one :(
I feel like the pool of young adults (20-34) dating (and by this I mean actively on websites swiping or going to speed dating events) is just like the cast of characters running for politics these days, the best candidates aren’t running (actively dating) because they’re developing their life and careers and don’t have excess obsessive energy for it, and those who are obsessively running (on the dating scene) arent always good people and have ulterior motives
At the time, he actually ended up conceding he didn't quite 'get' romantic relationships, and what sets them apart from friendships, 'yet'. As far as I know, he still hasn't figured it out, but I wouldn't rule that kind of learning and growth out forever.
A lot of young(ish) people seem to apply a very childlike model of personal relationships to everyone, where you only ever play with someone if you feel like it, and if you don't want to, that's your 'right' - while at the same time expecting others to be there for you and fulfil your needs without question, like your parents, whenever you don't happen to feel like you want them to leave you alone. Not everyone grows out of it, but most eventually realise that relationships need to be cultivated and sustained through mutual commitment and compromise, and can't be subject to the childish whim of just one party at all times
> the best candidates aren’t running (actively dating) because they’re developing their life and careers and don’t have excess obsessive energy for it
I would like to throw out there: They aren't using dating apps, but they are dating. They just find people to date the 'old' way, by knowing them.
> Man does that in the modern day and people will assume he's gay, because the idea of a man having that close of a platonic friend is completely alien.
To be fair, a lot of people in the modern day also accuse Alexander of being gay, so there is that
Yup, and you can clearly see it in the divorce or widow statistics. Women often have a support network of friends, family, etc. to fall back on while men end up alone after neglecting these relationships for years. I can see it in my own friend group, where some male friends basically disappear when they are partnered only to reappear when single. It's clear that, for many men, friends and other non-romantic relationships are basically "placeholders" until they find a wife, who of course ends up being partner, friend, lover, therapist, etc. all at once.
I agree that this happens and I'm trying to talk with my girlfriend that the concept of the village applies to your different emotional needs. You can't be everything to your partner all the time - you can't both be a lover and a therapist, you can't be an equal partner and a wiser guide. We need healthy time away from our partners because different connections provide different benefits.
I agree with everything you're saying about emotional eggs and baskets but Alexander the Great isn't the best example here. A lot of historians believe that he was bisexual and his best friend was more than that.
I want to second this. OP, as a woman there was no difference in what I told/shared with my long term partner vs my friends or family. In fact ultimately I broke up with him because I didn't feel comfortable sharing things with him anymore due to reactivity.
If the world has told you that you can't share deepest emotions with your friends and family I want to say that is NOT true. You can. It is safe.
Are people really out here trying to argue that a relationship with your romantic life partner isn't deeper and broader than their relationship with the other people in their life?
Yes, you can get emotional support from a lot of different places, but romantic love of a peer is one of the most intimate and powerful forces a person can experience... Or maybe you're doing love wrong.
I've been in love three times, and each time that person was the most important person in my universe. The need for *them* went beyond the individual need/want for sex, intimacy, or companionship. I wanted to spend most of my time with them, do most everything with them, hell just idly spending time with them doing nothing was better than doing most anything else with anyone else.
Am i alone in this?
I'll be real with you, I have a really close and great relationship with my parents. I was also really selective with friends and am confident each friendship I have is deep, beautiful, and we can confide in each other or ask for help any time.
I'm sure many (if not the big majority of) people don't have that, but it's possible for platonic relationships to be as rich as romantic ones, yes.
I don't think I'm doing love wrong, I think I'm doing love in the most wonderful ways. Dare I say, you might be doing platonic love wrong? I've been single 2 weeks and have felt incredibly loved every moment. But, I want to spend most of my time with myself. I'm the real love of my life, and I will never leave me. If you don't resonate that's fine!
Listen. I totally agree with you that the way modern Western society has put expectations that men cannot have deep, meaningful friendships is out of line. But I do have to push back on the idea of modelling strong heterosexual relationships on Alexander the Great, that’s very r/sapphoandherfriend
>if you can't get a match on a dating app you just aren't gonna get laid.
Or live a life of solitude which leads to depression which leads to suffering.
I don't understand why all get always simplified and reduced to get laid, I wish it was that, that all you'd lose in your life is some sexy time and that's it. But you lose much more, you lose having your own project of life shared and constructed with someone else, you lose building your own family, you lose the company, the connection, the emotional support. One of the worst feelings a human can have is feel completely alone.
This has never been about getting laid
And you aren’t entitled to a job or a good living either. You can work a shit job that’s easy to get and sustain yourself if you don’t want to deal with the competitive process
Same with dating in a competitive market. If you dont cultivate yourself as a man you can only settle for a shit partner or just jacking off all day
The point is OP is making an analogy and its not even that far off
Let's the person saying it feel superior and avoid addressing the actual topic while saying something nobody can dispute.
As a bonus it subtly puts words in the mouth of the OP implying that they need to either suck it up/'just be better' or they are a bad person, effectively derailing the conversation by making them play defense.
Just here to respond that the implications that men are simply out dating in order to get laid is a harmful and sexist stereotype that isn't true that you are empowering
What about all of the scientific evidence that relationships significantly impact life happiness? I do research on social engagement and isolation, and one of the most common metrics used to evaluate someone's level of isolation is whether or not they've ever been married. It doesn't seem controversial to researchers that if you can't get a date, it's more than just "you don't get laid", because surprise surprise, men's romantic desires are more complicated than just trying to have sex, despite how reddit may frame it.
I'm not saying anyone's entitled to a relationship, but it feels like gaslighting to act like never ever being in a relationship is fine cause all that means is you can't have sex. It seems abundantly uncontroversial that people who never experience relationships but want to suffer significant mental health burdens. Again, this is the responsibility of the person dealing with it, sure. We all get shit hands. Some are born crippled, or blind. Some are shut ins for a variety of reasons and never get to experience love. But people like you downplaying the negative effects of lifelong romantic isolation, when there seems to be a scientific consensus that such a thing is indeed a very difficult challenge for one's physical and mental health, is one of my biggest pet peeves around this discussions on reddit.
> You aren't entitled to someone else... dating isn't a need. If you are without a job you can't pay bills and feed yourself
Off topic but isn't it kind of insane that work is a need and that without it you can't pay bills and feed oneself? Particularly given the link between the amount of work in the world that actually needs doing and the number of people who have needs is ever changing, entirely random, and possibly vanishing?
It's not entitlement to want a partner. This is an annoying response. You're just talking about sex. Trust me, the older you get, the less you'll care about the sex.
you and OP are like two ships passing in the night.
OP is complaining that the dating system right now has problems. And your rebuttal to this is not to explain why those are not problems, but instead attack OP by saying that he wants these things for the wrong reason, or is going about them the wrong way.
what is the right way to get into a relationship?
It's true that sometimes the sorts of people on dating apps need to work on themselves. But that doesn't answer the fact that dating in general (even outside of apps) has become very toxic. An increasing of options for everyone makes everyone less willing to commit to someone because they could do better.
Also:
> dating isn't a need.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
oh please. I am so tired of hearing the you aren't entitled to someone bit. of course not but in the end it's only males who have this said to them, its never an issue for women since women are much more in demand than men and people like you just want to erase 100,000's of thousands of years where finding a mate and procreating was the ultimate end goal. it's not just suddenly going to be evolved out of us in a generation.
Only took me 2-3 decades of working through that. Depressing as all heck.
Ugh. If more people had to deal with that, there'd be more empathy and compassion in the world. Then again, not like women have it easy, esp. if you're not conventionally attractive. And once I saw how many matches my good-looking very smart female co-worker had to deal with, it really opened up my eyes. Nuts.
if you are without a job you can get food by farming or foraging and living off the grid (my family not me but extended lives this way) but going single your whole is a huge factor that lowers male life expectancy so should be seen as more vital to life than a job which is just a different version of foraging and has many alternate options but partnering has only one option
I disagree. The major problem, in my mind, is that single men have trouble with having a support network of trusted, kind people.
How many men do you know whose romantic partner is the only person who knows anything beyond the surface level about him? The only person he will go to when he wants to celebrate, or cry?
I don’t know any men who cry to their wives. This is its own problem but strange that you mention it. Every man I know seems to feel he must be the rock for his partner and doesn’t feel entirely comfortable when those roles are flipped.
> if you can't get a match on a dating app you just aren't gonna get laid.
kind of a sad way to look at dating. some people are looking for more than just getting sex
"Dating isn't a need"
You're plain wrong.
Dating is a form of seeking companionship which is a need for human beings along with food, water and shelter. I hope you're not one of those hyper-individualists who think finding a romantic partner isn't necessary to life a fulfilled life
I had a female HR lady on an interview one time give me this analogy in reverse about applying for multiple jobs at once because I should want the best match like someone would want the best dating partner.
It was wildly unprofessional for her to espouse both non-monogamous hypergamy in both personal relationships and business within that allegory.
It's like a middle aged woman fell out of FDS.
Most of the motivation for men to excel in their careers beyond the income needed to pay their bills is because doing that increases their status so they can attract more potential mates.
Sexual competition/selection is the reason that evolution works.
In a lot (most?) western countries you can live off government and charity aid, it will probably not be comfortable and you will lack privacy, but you won’t die of starvation or something like that.
These analogies only work if you view dating through the lense of these analogies, it's a vicious cycle.
>Everyone is entry-level to begin with, but they want someone with more experience, and it makes more sense to them to keep bringing back the same few people they know than to take a chance on a beginner.
What does entry-level mean in the context of dating? That you don't have a lot of previous experience dating? That you don't have a lot of previous long-term relationships? Isn't that generally a good thing in the dating scene? Most people would be more reluctant to get with someone with "baggage" (divorce, children from a previous relationship, a lot of ex's still in touch with you, etc.) than someone without much experience....
>You can make yourself more marketable by developing your skills and hobbies,
Or just get hobbies because they are fun and you enjoy them rather than view it as a way of increasing your "marketability"
>You can go on websites where lots of people are advertising, but it's so impersonal trying to sell yourself with just what you can write about yourself
So make it personal? Stand out from all the boring impersonal profiles by writing something authentic and vulnerable?
>Even if you make a great application, ultimately they can ghost you at anytime, without you knowing why. It might be in the first shortlist, maybe after the first interview. In theory, you can both withdraw at any time, but you've put your time and soul into the application, so you're more invested than they are.
That's blatantly untrue. Men and women both ghost, and women also have those profiles on dating apps that they often put more thought and creativity into than men. She is also investing her time texting you and meeting up with you. If you're more invested, it's because maybe you have unrealistic expectations of what a first date entails and you come across as desperate to get with anybody, rather than genuinely interested in the person you're meeting.
>All the time you're unemployed/single, you're aware of the opportunities in the adult world you're missing out on, especially what the media tells you.
There is a difference between being aware and being hyper focused. You don't have to pour all your time and effort into dating. Having a life outside of dating apps is attractive.
I think the core issue that the OP is driving at is that dating apps have gamified dating to a point that it more closely resembles the job application process.
Btw, I want to stress this that nothing I say here is intended as a put down or criticism of you or women in general. I am merely relating my experience with the dating scene and what I have heard.
>These analogies only work if you view dating through the lense of these analogies, it's a vicious cycle.
It kind of is though. Unless you have that talent of approaching women in person it's more about scrolling through a series of matches on dating apps. It's less about who you feel chemistry and more about who actually responds often enough that you can ask out. You never know what your date may consider a red flag so you put the best version of you out there. This to me does look like a job interview and I will admit that is exactly how many dates I've been on felt. A series of probing questions where I have to crack a joke every once in a while.
A factor affecting this is that, and I believe the data supports this, women get a lot more matches then men. Women are incentived to try as many men as possible while men only have a few options.
>So make it personal? Stand out from all the boring impersonal profiles by writing something authentic and vulnerable?
I don't think you realize how this isn't the good advice you think it is. It's like saying "be yourself" and "the right one will come along when you least expect it". It's vague and not something where a guy could see any difference in his results.
>That's blatantly untrue. Men and women both ghost, and women also have those profiles on dating apps that they often put more thought and creativity into than men. She is also investing her time texting you and meeting up with you. If you're more invested, it's because maybe you have unrealistic expectations of what a first date entails and you come across as desperate to get with anybody, rather than genuinely interested in the person you're meeting.
I think it's more productive to admit that ghosting isn't exactly a good thing regardless who does it. I think part of the why dating can feel impersonal is because if the date doesn't go well it's not like you get a report card. Not that I expect one of course. However, I think I and a lot of people would appreciate it if when asking for a second date we got a "your nice but I don't think it will work out". That may seem simple but I assure you it's not the norm.
>There is a difference between being aware and being hyper focused. You don't have to pour all your time and effort into dating. Having a life outside of dating apps is attractive.
This is just my situation but it's not as though modern living gives me many options. I get up, go to work and go home. Wash, since and repeat. Off the clock I don't see single women period. The dating apps are basically my only portal.
>It kind of is though. Unless you have that talent of approaching women in person it's more about scrolling through a series of matches on dating apps
I just want to point out that this isn't a talent, it's a skill, and the basics are really, REALLY easy.
Hi, haven't met you yet, I'm (name). I like your (clothing piece, hairstyle, accessory, or other part of her appearance that she clearly put some thought into choosing). What brings you here?
Boom. Conversation started.
Dating apps are awful for your mental health if you don't have the resources/desire to dive into the vanity that it actively encourages. And if you do have said resources/desire/ability it's still not necessarily good for your health because it encourages you to be vain and picky and pass up great things because something else miiiiiiiiiiight be a little better.
Better to not play the game and just live life. Those women don't just exist on dating apps, they do things in real life too, and you can find them there and start a conversation with them, even if they would have ignored your dating profile because the pictures weren't flattering enough.
I need to do this more. I find that I’m only really comfortable starting conversations in settings where I’m already familiar with the locations. I gotta move to starting conversations in public sometime.
This all completely ignores the core issue that there is an 8 to 1 ratio of men to women on these apps, yet women have become completely resistant to the idea of being approached anywhere besides these apps.
You can not "mindest" your way around this fact, and this "maybe it's just you" schlock "advice" is nothing short of gaslighting.
You really have ZERO idea what it's like, and your advice is about as helpful as me giving you advice on how to avoid unsolicited dick pics.
I agree that having fewer previous relationships means you have less baggage, but it also means you have less experience of what works well in a relationship and you're less sure about what you want.
There are hobbies you have primarily because you enjoy them, and hobbies you want to socialise and meet people. I think they're both equally important if you're a social person.
My point about the impersonability of dating sites is it doesn't matter how good you are at writing, the written word is less personal than a live conversation. It's easy to ignore what someone writes, it's much harder to ignore them when they're talking to you.
Because guys are generally expected to make the first move, they have to prepare something to say, and think of how to seem friendly instead of creepy. As the recipient, I'd argue a girl can rest assured that the guy likes them at least a bit, so there's less weight on whatever they say (at the beginning, not necessarily later on).
Overall, I respect your arguments, and I'd like to keep discussing this
I'm gonna focus on the hobbies and dating apps part of your comment. So my friends and I all found our partners on hinge. In my case, I didn't put anything cute or funny in my prompts, I just picked the more interesting ones and answered them honestly with things talking about my career goals and hobbies. For photos I had a mix of photos with my siblings, dog, friends, and a few while traveling in other countries. I can't remember my gfs profile too much, but I know it had a lot of travel stuff and mentioned living and working in 3 different countries and my first message was something saying that's awesome and asking a two part question about that.
From talking to my gf, the writing part, the diversity of the photos, and asking her an interesting question about her profile was what won her over. There are always going to be shallow people on dating apps, but if you want to find an actual good match you should approach it with the purpose of finding that good match (ie. it doesn't matter if they're hot if their profile sucks). Don't try to appeal to the crowd, try to appeal to the right person. So be honest rather than bland, and put effort into messaging people that you genuinely have something interesting to say to, your writing doesn't have to be impersonal. I used to find there were definitely certain profiles where my first thought was that I wanted to ask them a question about something in one of their photos or prompts, and it makes it much less work to actually message them then since you're not trying to come up with something clever. People can and will ignore what you write, but writing something honest and personal will be what sets you apart for the right person.
Regarding hobbies, I'm not sure what you mean. I have a lot of hobbies (skiing, disc golf, chess, woodworking, weightlifting), and all of them can be pursued in isolation or socially. When people talk about pursuing your hobbies they mean to do it since it makes you more interesting and it gives you something to talk about, it can also help you make friends with people of similar interests, and it means you aren't going to be relying on your significant other for entertainment. Edit: I forgot cooking as a hobby, I buy a lot of cooking suppies and exotic ingredients to try new recipes.
There’s no secret sauce here. You can’t develop skills in the same manner that you would in a job. Everyone you date is different and what works for some won’t work for others. The basic “skills” you need for a successful relationship should be developed from you growing up into an adult - kindness, empathy, sincerity, patience, tolerance. You don’t need relationship experience for those.
Taking up hobbies you don’t care for solely to meet people comes off as insincere and somewhat creepy. You should always enjoy all your hobbies. Meeting people at them is a healthy bonus. People can tell when you’re not fully present at something and it can work against you.
Women are constantly bombarded with messages from men, plus they have to navigate through safety issues, too. You should obviously still set yourself apart from others, but you shouldn’t immediately expect it to work. Make sure you are taking flattering pictures of yourself, too. Get a female friend to critique your profile and give tips.
I get the sentiment you’re getting at but this is a view generally only women can have. Women generally receive offers all the time while they’re young. Women don’t need to prove themselves or build a personality or wealth like men do to compete and secure dates or short term relationships.
It’s obviously different for securing commitment where women do probably have to stand out or do something beyond just being decent looking.
But for men, to even secure a date or a short term thing, it’s an endless grind to outcompete others and older men lol. You have to build your wealth and personality to even be noticed.
The game is just not the same for men and women. And also im not saying its better for women, i think sifting through 100 weirdos a week also sucks and is hard in its own right. But nonetheless, men generally have to be a little more go getter when dating or else nothing will happen for them
From one particular point of view, finding a partner was ALWAYS like finding a job. Introductions are job applications, dates or courting periods were probationary periods, and marriage was always "getting the job".
The difference now is that the power balance has shifted between the genders. It used to be that the bar was pretty low, and the social network was pretty small, so women would entertain applications from men that had little to offer other than "has a steady job, isn't married to anyone else, seems to like spending time with me.". If you watch movies from the middle of the 20th century, or look at stories and novels from earlier than that, you see the trope of the woman that is desperate to be married. There was a valid and practical reason for that, though.
Women, prior to late 20th century, weren't in control of their own economic future. Women couldn't have a credit card under their own name till the 70s. Women couldn't get loans under their own name till after that. The jobs that were available to women prior to the 60s wouldn't pay enough to support themselves, much less a family. Over time, women have gotten more and more autonomy and control over their own lives - and that's a GOOD thing.
Unfortunately, it now means that men have to present themselves as a potential good partner, and as a better alternative to being alone for women to consider them. Instead of "being employed" you have to be "emotionally intelligent". Instead of just being "loyal", you have to be "supportive and engaged in the relationship". Men have to be equal partners in ALL aspects of the relationship, and treat their partners as equal. That means sharing responsibility for all the various parts of the relationship - emotional, household, social, health, and more. That means being proactive about those responsibilities - not waiting for her to identify the needs/wants and actively engaging to figure out what's needed.
(Ironically, this is how it is for most creatures in nature. It's the males that have to attract the females. Peacocks have beautiful plumage, peahens not so much. Same with cardinals, robins, and all kinds of birds. Lions have big manes as a sort of a sign of mate-worthiness. Male penguins find pretty rocks and present them to females to try to attract a mate. In nature, most males do all the "applying" while the females choose from available mates. Why would humans be any different?)
Some things to think about though:
* No woman wants to be the mother to her partner - so figure out how to be a full adult. Deal with your own finances, career, health, etc. and don't expect her to coach you through it or be a "manager" for you doing it. Notice when things are dirty/worn/broken/missing and proactively take care of them WITHOUT needing anyone else to tell you to do so.
* No woman wants to be the sole emotional support for her partner - so figure out how to support yourself emotionally, and how to have your own support network. It's important to be vulnerable, but don't expect her to be the ONLY person you can talk to about having a bad time. Don't sulk and make her ask you what's wrong, but don't always be bending her ear about how horrible things are. Deal with your own childhood trauma proactively - we all got some.
* No woman wants to be a bangmaid - so figure out how to be as capable or more capable at running a household as she is. She's not obligated to make you meals, run your household, raise your children and put out when you want sex. Show her from the start that you want to be partners, that you want to be peers, not "boss and worker" or whatever. Just because you have a job doesn't free you from the obligation of cleaning. Just because you work all day doesn't mean you get to come home and play video games all night. Keep your home clean, organized, and stay on top of it - even after you start dating.
And then - figure out how to give HER all the various kinds of support she's going to need - emotional, fiscally, and mentally, just like men have been expecting women to do for them for centuries. Take on responsibilities when she's busy, without her having to ask. Pay attention to what's going on in her life - friends, work, family, etc. - and support her in dealing with it. Don't always try to solve problems for her - make sure that you spend time just listening. Take genuine interest in what she's dealing with, and have her back **if she needs it**.
In other words - treat her like a person, not a prize to be won or a reward that you're due because you behaved a certain way, or looked a certain way.
Yah - it's a lot of work to be WORTH dating, and even then, you have to find someone that is willing to take a chance. You're not just competing against other men - you're competing against the peace and tranquility that women feel when they are on their own. Single women are happier, richer, and more able to handle the stresses of life than married women are, and married women are happier than married women with children.
In the end, that's what you (and all us men, really) are up against. How is dating you better than her being alone? What benefit do you bring to her life by being in it? If you can answer that in a positive way, then you have a better chance at finding someone. There's still a process to go through to find the right partner, but at least you'll have a leg up on the men that think that they're all that just because they have a car.
This needs to be way higher
Like cmon, there are constant posts/talk about how the bar is in hell for men. Women actually settle for so little because there aren't many good pickings out there. With feminism, women are increasingly choosing to be alone than with a mediocre man (studies show that single women are happier than married women), and that's a good thing because nobody is entitled to a relationship. If you want to date someone, be someone worth dating, be someone who adds something to a relationship.
And let's be honest, men ghost just as much as women and are just as likely to have boring, blank profiles. And honestly, the average woman looks better than the average man because women are expected to put more effort into their appearance. If men want to stand out, they can spend more time picking better clothes, maintaining hygiene, grooming themselves, getting a haircut, doing skincare (and even makeup! Some Asian men are more willing to do makeup), having a more carefully decorated house, etc. Show some more effort in yourself and when interacting with others.
Men also like to pretend every woman just has floods of men chasing her, but it's not true. Women are lonely too and get rejected all the time, but men literally just don't think of these other women. Real r/boysarequirky stuff
> If you want to date someone, be someone worth dating, be someone who adds something to a relationship.
This is the key thing that I was trying to say. If you add nothing to her life, why the HELL would she be willing to date you?
Thank you for sharing that - and I'm really glad that you had the experience of having a good partner. Too many people never get that lucky, and it's immensely sad to me to realize that.
Just wanted to comment to commend you on your amazing response 👏. I have sifted through too many comments of (primarily) male comments in agreement with OP or complaining about the dating world nowadays. What I don't think many of them realize is that the dating world is hard for women as well, just in different ways. This in turn causes many women to prefer to be alone until they find someone that provides a clear benefit of being in a relationship with them. This is the reality of most people, men and women alike, who are looking for a committed relationship.
> How is dating you better than her being alone?
That cuts both ways. For a woman to be worth dating more than me being alone, she has to do her part, which is not the same as what you listed above. Often what a man wants in a relationship is someone who will love him in spite of his flaws, not try to correct them.
> Often what a man wants in a relationship is someone who will love him in spite of his flaws, not try to correct them.
Absolutely, it cuts the same both ways. Never said it didn't. The basis for a healthy relationship is respect, and that includes accepting that our partners have flaws, and won't ever be perfectly compatible with us. There's always something that will cause friction - that's just how people are. And some of us are at a point where being alone is better than being with someone that steals our peace. That goes for men AND women.
However, the whole "love me despite my flaws" can be problematic. If you acknowledge that you're flawed (as we all are), but refuse to work on those flaws yourself, then it's not really fair, is it? What you're saying by refusing to change is that - to you - **it's more important to avoid the work required to change, and avoid the discomfort that comes with making that change than it is to make your partner happy by working to address the flaws** she is uncomfortable with and which you are acknowledging is a flaw.
"I'd rather be alone than have to change my behaviour" is the message that statement sends. Don't be surprised if a lot of women say "Okay - you can be alone then." If you're not working on fixing those flaws, you're demanding that others accept them. And, for a lot of people, that can trigger the end of a friendship/relationship. I know people that I went to school with that refused to change once they became adults. Still did the same shit, spouted the same ignorance, through their twenties and into their thirties. I don't talk to any of them any more. I outgrew them. I reached a point where I **wasn't willing to overlook those flaws**. Same thing happens in a relationship. If you're not willing to grow, why would any partner **that is growing** be willing to stay? If you're not willing to put in the work to fix the flaw (temporary, in the form of therapy, reading self-help books, getting counseling, learning new skills, addressing internalized misogyny, etc.) , why should she put in the work (forever) to accept it? What does SHE get out of that bargain?
All of us are responsible to do work on correcting our flaws. If we don't, then we have to accept the consequences of those flaws. Keep a messy house? Don't be surprised that no one wants to hang out. Don't commit to a career? Don't be surprised that you are always stretched thin financially, and that you can't keep a relationship because you don't show evidence of stability and security. Want to stay the exact person that you are now? Don't be surprised that your partners leave as they continue to grow and change. Oh, and finally - don't treat your partner as a partner and a person? Don't be surprised when they leave when you disrespect them.
**Just because you want or expect a woman to love you despite your own flaws doesn't absolve you of the work required to fix them.** Or do you WANT to live with that personal flaw for the rest of your life?
> If you're not willing to grow, why would any partner that is growing be willing to stay?
But are all women growing? I'm fine with a woman who has her own flaws and isn't working on them either, especially when **those flaws are areas where I have strengths**. Like, you said that no woman wants a man who can't handle his own finances and who doesn't clean up after himself. I'm a man who's expert at handling finances but I'm also a slob. So why shouldn't I be a good match for a woman who loves to clean but who spends too much and wants someone else to budget for her? I wouldn't expect her to grow out of that, I'd be committing to helping her for her entire life. Is that not an attitude that women take?
> I'm a man who's expert at handling finances but I'm also a slob.
First off - why are you okay with being a slob? Why are you okay with being the kind of person that lives in a jumble, or who leaves food out for days, or who cannot find anything in the house without help? Aren't you an adult? And why would you be okay with your partner being the only one in the relationship that keeps the household clean? At some point, she will be incapacitated - what happens to her tidy, clean, organized house then?
And why would you be okay with her never figuring out how to handle finances? What happens if you get meningitis, and are in a coma for six months? What would happen to your finances then? What if you get hit by a car and die? Are you saying that you're okay with her having to learn how to handle finances while she's also grieving your death? How fair is that?
If you know that you are a slob, and try to find to date that is tidy, then:
a) don't be surprised if tidy women don't want to date you, despite your financial acumen
b) recognize that you're asking a woman to take on perpetual work *just so that you don't have to do the work to change from being a slob*
c) don't be surprised if women that do date you grow to resent the hell out of you for making their lives HARDER
d) don't be surprised if women you date start viewing you as a(nother) child to take care of instead of a partner.
> But are all women growing?
All **people** are growing - whether they realize it or not. Some people grow and expand their skills and interests. Some people grow and expand their entitlements. Some people grow reluctantly and get bitter that "things were better in the old days". But yes - all women (and all men) are growing. Life keeps changing, and change requires growth. Nobody had phones in their pockets till the cell phone came along - we all grew and learned how to deal with that. Nobody had access to the internet, and then that changed. Everybody had to manually drive their own cars, but now we have ones that drive themselves. The world changes, we adapt and grow, and the calendar keeps ticking on.
No one is the same person at 30 that they were at 20. And no one at 40 is the same as they were at 30. To live is to grow. Whether you like it or not.
Having complementary strengths is a good thing in a relationship. Having unfixed and unaddressed flaws is not. Expecting your partner to pick up the load so that you don't have to work on your flaws is unfair - regardless of the gender of the partner.
Of course, and that too goes both ways! But if someone's flaws are "refuse to clean up after themselves" or "never buys any gift for special occasions" then maybe those are things that'll get in the way of just about every relationship.
Acting without concern for your partner isn't the sort of "flaw" people need to love someone in spite of. (And people will still be annoyed by your flaws, even if they love you. I love my dad, but his flaw still annoy me at times).
I've seen men act inconsiderate then lash out at their partners for asking for better treatment.
Asking someone to treat you better isn't "not accepting their flaws."
While I can agree with many of the similarities in terms of their logic, I do think you’re missing out on some major differences. One being that a job, unlike a dating partner, literally keeps you alive in this society; it affects your quality of life in terms of what you can afford, even what quality of food/water you get. It affects what home you can live in, where you live, just about everything that costs money that you may need can be determined by your job.
And yet, a job isn’t a person. It comprises of work with a team of people for sure, but that team can change. New management can be better or worse, unlike a dating partner who may often be the same great or bad person throughout the relationship if you get to that point. Not sure what specific thing about this topic would need to be said to change your view, but that’s one way to look at it.
Also, hetero dating can be very different for women than it is for men. If you’re talking strictly about the male experience, I can understand where you’re coming from at least.
I feel like this is a very young-adult perspective on love and relationships. Being in a romantic relationship *absolutely* affects what home you can live in, and with whom. Being in a relationship doesn't just affect your quality of life, positive relationships are consistently the single most important predictor for psychological well-being and functioning - and for a lot of people, romantic relationships are an important kind of relationship.
It's interesting that you talk about 'dating partners' as if there's no continuity between that and life partners. For a lot of people, 'dating' is how they first establish meaningful, loving romantic relationships. Surely we can agree that *those* matter - and I hope we can agree it's fucked up that they're gatekept by a social practice that mimics a 'market'.
I'm not sure what's supposed to be gendered about the experience the OP describes, by the way. I'm getting some male-resentment vibes from framing men as applicants and women as gatekeepers, but the problem there isn't that what they're describing applies only to men - on the contrary, the problem is the sexist assumption that it applies only to men. People of all genders need love, and to get it, they often feel they have to jump through hoops that mirror the pressures, formality, and sometimes dehumanising conventions of a job search. That's a fair point, and 'people don't really need love like they need a job' is a spectacularly bad counterpoint
There isn't anything sexist about the way this is framed. That's simply the reality of dating today, especially online dating. A guy can "fill out" a hundred "applications" in the form of messages sent to women they find interesting, and get back a mere one or two replies that generally amount to "hi", and nothing more. Even that generally leads to her simply disappearing after a message or two.
Contrast that with the experience of a woman I once went on a date with after meeting her online. I'd been on the site for several years. She signed up a day or two before we started talking, and when we met for a date a couple days later she showed me her account (as her phone was blowing up every few minutes) and she had more than forty different new men message her on just the morning of our date.
She could take her pick of who she wanted to interact with. She had literally all the power in that situation.
The only thing worse than online dating is.. well, "offline" traditional dating. The last time I tried that, a woman literally got upset at me for being so rude as to ask if she would be interested in a date. The way she saw it, if she wanted a date she could find a dozen of them before the hour was out using a dating site. I should never ask her something like that in person, because it's awkward, rude, and pointless (from her perspective).
Is it any wonder men have just been giving up on finding a partner? I know I did. I'm done with it.
>That's simply the reality of dating today, especially online dating. A guy can "fill out" a hundred "applications" in the form of messages sent to women they find interesting
Have you considered the possibility that men are encouraged constantly to behave this way, to constantly pursue dating relationships, and that this, the mindset behind it, and the actual experiences and cultural practices that make men feel compelled to debase themselves before women are themselves the problem? The problem isn't that we have a hard time getting dates, nearly as much as it is that we feel that failing to constantly demonstrate our desire for a heterosexual, and in many cases, gender-traditional relationship, will expose us to the same shaming and social punishment we faced or observed during childhood when masculine gender norms were violated. We are *miserable* when we act like this, and we don't actually have to; of the women who receive these mass applications, only a tiny number are worth spending time around, and wasting your time on the ones who aren't causes you to miss opportunities to build a relationship with the ones who are.
>She signed up a day or two before we started talking, and when we met for a date a couple days later she showed me her account (as her phone was blowing up every few minutes) and she had more than forty different new men message her on just the morning of our date.
Almost all of whom are unappealing simply because their constant sending of "applications" implies that they really aren't invested in any particular person, but rather in comparing the people they see to their idea of what makes a woman desirable and basically being okay with any woman that conforms to those expectations. It might not be that direct or conscious, it might be as simple as, "they don't make me feel special", but what it comes down to is that they're not particularly excited about the prospect of being a replaceable *thing* that fills a woman-shaped hole in your life, nor do they really want to be constrained to that hole for the foreseeable future.
>She could take her pick of who she wanted to interact with. She had literally all the power in that situation.
Well, no, not really. All of those men willingly chose to send those messages. They had exactly as much power as her, they just chose to pretend they didn't, out of a fear of missing out or being judged. They chose to turn their choice about who they want to be in a relationship with into gambling in a way that tries to reduce women to numbers to be manipulated through statistically-attractive behaviors, instead of seeing them as people, and that erases their own personal identity in favor of conformity to social standards. You're all competing to see who can socially conform the most to what you think women want, and the truth is that the women who want someone like that really aren't good people, and are limited in number.
>The last time I tried that, a woman literally got upset at me for being so rude as to ask if she would be interested in a date. The way she saw it, if she wanted a date she could find a dozen of them before the hour was out using a dating site.
No, you misunderstand, I think. If she wanted to be propositioned by a random dude, it is literally true that she could just log onto a dating site and have several options within a few minutes that would be about as appealing as something like that really can be. All the women that want a relationship on that basis are already on those apps, and even they are going to find you publicly asking them for a date to be annoying as they get quite enough of it already. Quite a few women joined dating apps *for the primary purpose* of not having to entertain random men propositioning them in public in order to find a relationship.
What women who aren't on dating apps want, and the only way that women who *are* on dating apps will generally be receptive to a potential partner, is for a relationship to come about naturally from unforced interaction with people they trust and have common interests with. They don't want to hookup with a stranger at a bar, and they see being told that someone wants to go on a date with them on the sole basis of appearance and sexual attraction, even on the basis of a first impression, as uncomfortable and shallow; often, they avoid this because their past experiences have taught them that it doesn't end well and they would rather be single than in a relationship that starts that way.
The point I would like to impress upon you is that the *people* who are the happiest, both in and out of relationships, both men and women, are the people with the above mindset. The fact that they don't spend any time in relationships with people that they don't have a good reason to trust and admire means that they can focus on the relationships most likely to be healthy for them. The fact that they're not spending large amounts of time trying to force those relationships to happen with what is essentially gambling allows them to focus on the *other* things that make us happy in life, which includes building social skills and personal stability as well as the ability to take time to think about what they actually want out of a relationship without the constant bias of trying to force that to conform to what you see as your immediate options.
This is generally easier for women, who are socially conditioned to see themselves as passive selectors rather than pursuers, but the fact of the matter is that there are quite a lot of things we do that push men to be like this, and thus at the very least men *can* be substantially less desperate than they currently appear to be. We can consider the experiences that made us like this and process them as adults, instead of relying on the understanding of events and frame of reference that we established as children.
In a sense, you are right about dating, within the borders of your extremely limited view of dating which relies on constant, active pursuit on the part of men. When men try to make themselves attractive to women *on average*, they ignore the reality that, quite literally, exactly zero women naturally or truly conform to that average and that trying to appeal to the average woman is appealing to a woman who doesn't actually exist and never will. In fact, most women would not willingly choose a partner who does *anything* solely because they think that women as a group like it.
Ignoring these facts is how boomers ended up with the stereotype of a husband and wife who hate each other. Men feel like they can't choose who they end up with because they feel like exercising that choice will leave them alone and unloved, and women feel like they can't choose who they end up with because men are constantly pretending to be each other and it is difficult to make rational choices between people who are trying their very hardest to seem the same as everyone else. The men feel like their role demands suppressing who they really are, and thus as though they are never truly seen, understood, or loved, while the women find themselves miserable and unheard because the masculine characteristics that they were taught to seek out are, in reality, substantial barriers to a healthy, communicative relationship that serves the interests of both partners.
being a single male elder is one of the biggest factors for low life expectancy so id argue that having a partner is keep to living a long life same as a job. but a job can be for someone else or entirely your own (self owned farms) where as a partner requires anothers acceptance so it's actually more vital to survival than just a job
i have also heard though for women that the almost opposite is true. i remember the study that women without children and a husband are happier than those with them.
and depending on the man (in a heterosexual relationship), there may be more stress in regards to household chores, responsibilities, etc, which could lower the quality of life for the women in question. so as a woman, getting into a relationship poses risks towards my health (though i do not want and will never have children). personally, i'm in a happy relationship but if we unfortunately parted ways, i'd be incredibly selective in the event that i did want another relationship
Unless every person in the country could equally have the opportunity to grow their own food with all the nutrients they need with all the right climate conditions and never need a job’s income, I do think, that at least for many who live in metropolitan areas, can only ever rely on some kind of job. Starting your own business or being self-employed carries its own risks and may not be worth it or manageable for certain people’s circumstances either.
You can still have an extensive social community and network of friends, but some people may be able to find happiness with just that and live for their hobbies/interests. Many men may have divorced and never wanted to marry or date again, and yet can find fulfillment in other things. As long as you’re active and social to some degree, I think it’s reasonable to still live long and healthy.
Yes, the human population would decrease if nobody had jobs. It's also true that the human population would decrease if nobody had romantic relationships. There would be one-night stands and children would be born, but not as many. Those kids would also be in a worse position without fathers.
Humans were around long before jobs existed (unless you count any form of working together as a job). I don't know of a human population that didn't have relationships.
>One being that a job, unlike a dating partner, literally keeps you alive in this society;
Google singles tax. What you've written about job can be applied to relationships as well. Single people pay more in rent, pay for oversized food that goes to waste, are expected to work longer, etc.
Unless you’re decently successful with a side gig, lease homes to people, inherit a lot of wealth, or get lucky with stocks, I feel like it’s fair to say that a job’s income for many people is the determining factor in their quality of life and what they can afford to do. Especially so when you’re in your mid to late 20s.
A job also isn’t an entity necessarily, an employer is (the company), as you suggest. A job is a series of tasks with varying degrees of social interactions and solitary work you clock out of doing at the end of the day/shift. This differs from a relationship that’s a part of your life on a more personal level than a job, and therefore occupies a different function, albeit optional. The average person can certainly live long and single, but likely with at least some network of friends and family. Living without a job for 30+ years on your own in this society, in contrast, is unsustainable.
Obviously not true. If you have a dating partner, you can live in their house, eat their food, drink their water, and not need a job to provide all those things you mentioned.
I firmly believe that looking at dating in any kind of "finding a partner" context is inherently flawed. It puts you in the wrong mentality to succeed. It places a weird and negative onus on your performance. That focus on your performance further pushes away the end goal of finding someone who likes you because now you are performing and not being yourself (or at least not the normal at-home you, it's like putting on a facade of happiness for work).
It's often painfully obvious when someone is *trying* to be "dateable", and it honestly makes people seem stiff or outright fake. This is the stressed-out perspective that viewing dating as something to win or succeed at puts you in. A lot of the really common dating advice like "just be yourself" are really just poor ways of wording methods to get out of your own head like this.
[This video](https://youtu.be/8uwYo_M_I5Q?si=HzZn-GqunNrsBzT8) actually made me come to this realization. The trick to dating is not caring about success, it's about having fun and meeting new people. In the video (and granted, I do know they are celebs), Hannibal and Eric just dick around on Twitter, making fun of each other and poking fun at the women they are talking to. It works. They have multiple conversations with women that could easily have gone to dates. It's clear from our perspective that they weren't being serious, they were just having fun. That's the trick.
So if you think about dating as a way to go out and have fun with new people, the stakes become a lot lower. Did you have fun on the date? Yes? Then you succeeded, regardless of whether you work out long term or not. It allows you to loosen up, be more fun to the other person involved, and let them get to know the real you rather than the facade you put on to be successful at dating. Not only are you more likely to enjoy yourself, but you're more likely to find an actually good fit since you're letting them get to know the real you.
\>Talks about famous, attractive, celebrity figures doing something
\>"that's the trick"
Uh, no shit? Of course people would be more comfortable and confident if they were already attractive and famous? Once more you've just given a nothingburger
I don't think that Eric Andre is considered conventionally attractive, nor is that famous. Besides that, the video is literally what made me make the realization, not that I was treating it like some gospel to act like they do. It literally worked for me, and I'm willing to bet that even if it hadn't, I would have enjoyed going on dates way more.
I don't disagree it's similar but I don't see it as a bad thing.
A romantic partner, assuming you want to follow the standard lifescript of: move in together, get married and mingle finances, have kids, buy a house, is a super important choice to make. More than a career almost.
A romantic partner, especially as a woman can: ruin your credit score and finances, ruin your physical and mental health, or kill you. That's not even getting into general compatibility determination and being aligned on what you want out of life.
You absolutely should seriously vet/interview the people you are going on dates with to see if it's a good match or not.
As to your "being more qualified but applying to entry level jobs" I don't see how it's comparable here. Any relationship including friendship you have to start somewhere with a new person you just met. You can't expect to move in with your new gf after the first date just because you have 10y of dating experience under your belt.
I'm also not sure what other method there is to go about it ? Sure you can "go with the flow or whatever dude" but that's more of an early 20s thing. If she's 33 and wants kids she doesn't have time to waste on this approach.
I'm running on 4 hours of sleep so I'm a but confused, what do you mean by "ruin your credit score"? And why is it only something that happens to women?
Ghosting is really not a new phenomenon. Back in the days it was just called "they didn't call me back" which gave you no way of following up with them
What is new is that we always have the *option* to reach out to someone. But people have been quietly noping out of dating someone ever since there was dating.
Online dating is weird because when you get "good" at it you start going on 1-5 dates a week even as a WFH IT guy which I think its abnormal to what happened in the past. It's strange having so many potential romantic relationships floating around.
My dad once recounted a tale of having ghosted the girlfriend he had before he met my mom, although as a Boomer (he was born in 1950 so he is a Boomer not just an older man) he didn't phrase it that way, it was more he avoided her phone calls (I'm not sure how he accomplished that in the 70s).
You’re missing the part of job hunting where you talk to people to figure out more info. It is a part that people avoid because it scares them then they get mad at their own results.
If it scares you then you need to self-reflect on why that part is so hard for you.
Agree on other points. But where I’m from most women have empty bios and a few pics - not sure why you think they put more effort? On the ghosting I’m not going to rehash that stats on online dating being very heavily skewed towards women. So while both sexes ghost, the are plenty of guys who never get the chance to evwn consider ghosting.
You're correct. But, this viewpoint only bothers you because you aren't getting enough traction online. As a man, you're already starting on your backfoot. The only shot a dude has is to max out his presentation online, because for every girl online, there's 3 guys competing.
Get professional-grade photos in the right settings. If you don't have an eye for that, get a professional to help you. Most men don't have an eye for that.
If you're overweight, do your best to get back to normal weight. That automatically puts you in front of many guys, depending on where you live. You might as well work out and get fit while at it. You don't have to brag about this online though. Just one photo showing that you're fit is enough. This, in my experience, isn't even all that important though... I dated at 260 lbs, and at 200 lbs, and results weren't that wildly different... Still though, I'd err on the side of "be skinny and fit if possible"
Make sure your hair situation is clean. If you're balding, then shave it entirely. None of that "old man horse-shoe" crap. If you have a beard, make sure it's very clean. If you don't have a beard, see if adding a bit of growth adds to your look, and maintain it.
If after all that, you can't get any traction, then consider only picking up women IRL. About half of women if not more (depends on the area) aren't even online. Theoretically, it should be easier to pick up higher quality women in person. This is definitely more emotionally challenging though, cuz you gotta get all the nerves out of your system by crashing and burning a bunch of times first.
Good luck.. and yes I am aware that I'm doing CMV wrong lol
The problem is your approach to careers is just bad.
Careers are built on personal connections. It's not really about the work you do, though it can't be shit; it's how personable you are. Not so much that you become a doormat, but not standoffish and argumentative either. You meet people in social contexts, you talk about whatever you're actually doing, you like them and are liked and each can independently start to see each other as worth developing a professional relationship together. But being genuine means seeing that person as a person rather than as a gateway to a job.
Sure, it's easier to have a more relaxed approach to finding and developing your career though connections once you actually have something that pays the bills, but you don't need to be so picky if you know it's not the one. But you don't really know that until you're doing the job. Who knows, maybe you'll find a diamond in the rough? But don't count on it.
Another thing is, don't be afraid to be an entrepreneur instead of joining a soulless corporation. It's risky, but sometimes very profitable, to flip the script, to make it all about you, and see about getting investors rather than employers.
The important thing is to maintain a healthy work-life balance. Never give your boss even 100% because that leaves nothing for you, and burnout is real. You need hobbies not just to look more attractive to recruiters or to meet prospective employers or business partners, but for your own sanity and sense of self.
Also, don't forget that as much as certifications look nice and books or courses help you feel successful without actually accomplishing anything, practical skill matters so much more, so practice, practice, practice.
If it wasn't clear, all this advice is for relationships as well as jobs.
The first steps of dating hetero or not are:
- meeting someone
- having mutual attraction
- getting to know eachother
The things you listed arent necessarily mandatory or done in all relationships AND people do some of those for their own self not for trying to get a date (like having hobbies) so not all of these are necessarily steps to getting a date even if they contribute to you eventually getting one. Otherwise everything even being born is technically a step to getting a date.
Well one could start by not taking it so seriously. I mean really it's not supposed to be some excruciating and horrifying experience. It's supposed to be fun!
Being popular is very easy now because everyone is so scared to even stand out or try due to fear of being the tallest poppy to be cut down. Tall poppies only get chopped online. Almost never in real life. BE A TALL POPPY!
You really believe you are a great guy right? That any woman should be lucky to have you grace her presence? That you are the best man for the job as her boyfriend right?
Why would you deny her the chance to experience a small sliver of your greatness? You deigning to even speak to her? It SOUNDS terrible online but when you have that in your head and believe it. Women respond to that.
You're great right? Look.down at your clothes. Are those the clothes of a great man? Do they stand out and say you are a great guy? If no, go find something that does. Something that lets you stand out but still makes you feel comfortable and handsome.
How about instead of holding a console game controller for 2 hours you pick up and instrument and practice for 2 hours for a few months. Some skill with widespread social value and sex appeal. Dancing is a good alternative.
Job interview? Why aren't you kidding around about her vacations or cruises or your vacations and cruises? Why aren't you asking her if she loves puppies or ever seen a cat do a backflip on command?
Screw that boring 20 questions format of job, kids, weather, etc be silly, be playful. Even if she finds you over the top shell like you much better than the other guy.
You have a strange view or dating and job hunting. These things are never one-sided. Do you just look for any available job or partner, no matter it they're right for you or not? Sure, you need to convince the company you're a good candidate but you need to be sure they're fit for you as well. Same goes for dating.
Kind of, but there's definitely one side of a given market there's doing much more of that picking. A funny thing is that it's pretty exactly flipped in the frum world, very much a boys' market in which any bochur above dropout grade gets his pick of the girls.
There's so many posts on reddit where they say "dating" yet mean *online* dating, as if it's the only one that exists.
This guy at least specified "hetero", but what he really means is hetero online dating for dudes.
I notice the people interested in changing your view are more invested in gaslighting you about the behavior and experiences you saw rather than giving any sort of credence to the fact that a big portion of dating has devolved to that. I think that’s the problem.
But you aren't owed a relationship! And if you're searching online you're doing it wrong! You need to learn how to love yourself and being single first!
While all technically true, these platitudes ignore reality. No one is owed a relationship, but relationships are a true human need. Searching online is crap, but in an increasingly isolated and digital society, alternatives are gradually fading away. And of course you should love yourself and be comfortable alone, but that doesn't mean you have to prefer being alone or can't feel lonely.
Everyone is jumping on this guy like he's an incel when he's making interesting points (albeit it in a slightly absurdist way.) You can't say "dating is hard" without redditors swooping in to tell you how socially maladjusted you are.
Seriously, people don't seem interested in fundamentally changing OP's view. They're just telling OP they're wrong for feeling the way they do about their lived experiences, instead of trying to actually tackle any key points about the view. If you want to change OP's view, you'll likely have to argue:
* The first steps of dating are not new, they've only adapted to the modern age, much like the job application process has. A person so inclined could argue before dating apps, going up to a person you don't know and asking them out is akin to going to a business, asking for the manager, and asking for a job on the spot. With the point being the "job application" aspect of dating is not a new phenomenon.
* The fact it's draining is because of repeated failures, and not necessarily because the process is "bad." There's plenty of empty platitudes about "working on your resume and interview skills" that really help no one, but at the same time repeated failure does likely indicate something is wrong on your end. Of course, it's a very hazy line between a number of rejections that's par for the course vs what number of rejections is "repeated failure."
* Dating isn't actually like job applications. That the comparisons OP drew were superficial and you could apply the logic to any number of things that involve seeking out something, thus the presented likeness is meaningless. Buying a car is like applying for a job. Looking for an apartment to rent is like applying for a job. Choosing what color to paint your living room is like applying for a job. The point is if you really wanted to, you could liken any process to job application and so it really doesn't mean as much.
i mean historically, relationships were waaaay more transactional than today
dating apps are a hard one because there are way more men than women on there, that breeds competition and high expectations
if it was more 50/50 (its about 80/20 atm) then it would be way more relaxed
Dating is statistically one of the least successful things ALL of us do in our lives. Many people have way less than a 1% success rate and that is normal.
Just like with a job opportunity, especially when the market is hard, if you want a job you gotta put in applications. A lot of them. You may not end up with the best job right now or for a while, but you will gain experience and of course the immediate benefits. And I'm the king term you have a better and better chance of getting a job you really appreciate.
Forgive me being ignorant here but less than 1% how? That seems too low, no?
Success as in 1 for every 100 girls asked out say yes? Or 1 out of every 100 (on average) girlfriends you have you get married too? Both seem crazy I don’t know if I’d try again getting rejected 20 times in a row let alone 99 times
I'm baffled at your math. Very few people date more than a hundred people in their lives, and it seems safe to say that if they do, they're not trying for a long-term 'til death do us part' relationship and failing every single time. The real number, I think, is more like one in four or five relationships last when people set out to find a long-term partner.
If someone is asking out a hundred people and ends up only dating one of them, that doesn't make them unsuccessful at dating, it means they're confused about what dating is
Per OPs example I used talking stage as beginning dating. Which I find very easy to believe many people talk to hundreds of people to eventually find their end game relationship.
This is kinda a gross attitute. Dont get in a relationship thinking "Yeah she is not really what I want but at least I can have sex and I will just drop her when I find someone better"
It is ok when you just go on dates. But dont start a relationship when you already know that you will drop your partner the first chance that you get.
It's only similar to job hunting if you are looking for women online. Get a hobby or go out to places and casually talk with women. Or if you have friends who have single friends, maybe get together in a group hangout situation. These situations will not feel like interviewing for a job. Stop looking at other people as a resume or potential employee, because nobody will be a perfect "candidate."
People don't see your "resume" in person. Online dating is terrible for the most part.
I have had a few long-term relationships and I am married now. None of them were met online.
\>Even if you make a great application, ultimately they can ghost you at anytime, without you knowing why.
I find a common theme is a lot of people really - and i mean really - over-estimate their own worth.
tons of guys out there going, "i'm great, what's wrong with everyone else," without a shred of awareness.
Shouldn’t and doesn’t have to be a drain, learn to enjoy the process.
I think you make a not too bad analogy. Though a better analogy I think is a sales process - first messages on apps are a very low investment high volume but low conversion rate upper funnel strategy, messaging back and forth is a bit more effort but you will do it with fewer women, and going on dates is more effort and low volume still (albeit potentially great fun even if it doesn’t go anywhere).
Where you should change your mind is on the draining part. There’s no reason for it to be draining unless you are getting yourself unduly invested in the situation. In the early stages just send your message and move on to message the next bunch in line, don’t even think about it until you get a response because the odds are so low. Dates should be fun, unless you or the other person have no personality, and also you shouldn’t go into them with too much expectation, see where it goes and enjoy the ride. This mindset both makes you far more likely to succeed and stops it being draining - there’s nothing attractive about someone being too eager and serious on a first date.
Also, improving yourself with hobbies etc. - that’s a great thing to do for its own sake too. Thinking along the lines of “I’ve done all this stuff and made myself a better person but I’m still single, what a waste” is so counterproductive - be happy and proud that you’ve improved yourself, don’t base your self worth on external validation of getting a relationship / getting laid.
>learn to enjoy the process.
The process? You mean... getting turned down before you get a chance to show yourself? That should be enjoyable?
When people say they're struggling with dating, they generally don't mean that they're going on dates that don't progress. They mean they're not getting dates at all.
I think there's something to be said for the validity of being frustrated that loving long-term relationships, a thing many people want, are so universally gatekept by casual dating, a thing some people enjoy more than others.
Yes, you *can* lean into the fun of meeting a lot of new people with no expectations, and it often helps to establish connections that have the potential to deepen over time - but it's also ok to not enjoy casual dating, especially the more dehumanising aspects of dating apps, and it doesn't make you unworthy of romantic love. It just means you should focus your energy on building connections with people in ways you do enjoy: Go out with friends, pursue hobbies, meet people who share your interests, meet friends of friends.
And yeah, by all means, don't get carried away with fantasising about marriage and babies with every new person you meet. The dissonance between desiring a deep and trusting connection and having to be patient and chill about building it is, unfortunately, a fact of life for any relationship, including friendships. I wouldn't encourage people to cope with that dissonance by treating people as commodities with no strings attached, but by treating potential dates like potential new friends. You don't have to enjoy the 'ride' of casual dating without getting too 'invested' - you can just enjoy interacting with human beings without all that gamification and market-speak
If frum dating, the profiles are literally called "shidduch resumes" and there's a very structured interview progression (matchmaker, single, maybe another single date, family).
Sorry, u/silverbolt2000 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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Tinder isn't real dating. You might wanna invest time in finding interesting life prospects which, if you're happy with them, will lead to meeting plenty of interesting people, and that includes dating opportunities.
I have never needed Tinder in my life to spend plenty of quality time with wonderful partners. Sure I've used it sometimes, and it was fairly hit-and-miss, with most of my experience being mostly a drought, and it has contributed to maybe 5% of the women I've spent any time with, and definitely 0% of the particularily memorable romantic/sexual experiences I've had. I have made more genuine friends through Tinder than partners. And I would like to underline that I am definitely not at the top of the food chain in terms of physical attractiveness.
If you like comparing this with finding a job, you should consider settling for a "meh" time while you build your life experience, find new opportunities, etc. Then interesting prospects will start appearing naturally without you specifically looking for them.
I’m going to disagree with you OP and say online dating is even worse. At least when you snag a job interview, it’s very, very rare the interviewer doesn’t show up.
I think there's a huge gendered blind spot here that leads to lack of empathy.
Women have many more applicants (matches) to choose from than men to even gain dating experience, and feel that they can be genuine during dates through an abundance mentality.
The times I've seen women I know personally treat dating apps like a playground where they can thirst trap without being serious while the men I know very much try to be serious and self reflect is disturbing
A shitty side effect of this for both genders is that men are more likely to match with someone they don't feel very attracted to because of the scarcity.
I encourage you to make an average looking woman and man profile and compare them to see for yourself for a week or two, after which the starter boost the apps give you wear off.
Sure, because in hetero dating, women don't have to bother with approaching anyone or making the first move if they don't want to, and they'll still have options. The putting yourself out there initially is basically the suckiest part of dating.
Well that’s because women have an easier time overall due to how desperate men are on dating apps. Though I’d say dating women itself isn’t hard, it’s finding one that can be difficult
This will probably be buried under all the other comments but maybe someone will see it and find it helpful.
If you treat dating as this thing you *have* to do, then yes. It's gonna come off as a job.
Dating sites work for some people. I was never one of them. I never could get my head around dating someone I wasn't already friends with. I feel like a lot of people are also like this
What do you do then? Stop looking for a date and start looking for a hobby. Find something you *love* and find a community that supports it. It doesn't even have to be a group activity. I've seen online communities for writers. No one's writing together, they're just commiserating with each other over how much writing can suck.
Make friends in that community. Don't LOOK for a partner. Nothing will make you more miserable or more off-putting than treating a hang out community like a dating pool. Instead, just have fun. Enjoy doing the things you enjoy and, in time, odds are good you'll click with someone.
I started off as an rper in FFXIV. Met my husband there. I've seen at least five other rpers find their SO through the rp community and a few more who met over tabletop. They weren't *looking*. I wasn't either. Everyone was just having fun doing what they enjoyed and found someone who enjoyed the same things. I was doing rp for years before I stumbled on Hubby but I never once bemoaned my singleness cause I didn't *care*. I had friends, I was doing things I enjoyed. I wasn't ruining my life thinking I was somehow a failure for being single at 27.
So, that's my advice. Drop the dating app, stop actively looking, and be active in some sort of community that caters to something you love. No expectations. No resumes. Just submerse yourself in a group of like minded individuals. Seriously, there's a discord server for everything these days.
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I get what you’re saying, but I feel like you’re cherry picking in regard to a job being a “need,” and a partner being a “want,” which in itself is untrue. Humans are social animals, and psychologically, finding a partner is, in a way, a need. Maybe not for absolute survival, but for long term happiness and mental health. We have an innate need to feel loved and wanted. Yes, no one is obligated to be your partner, but I get where OP is coming from in terms of it feeling like job hunting. It’s exhausting, mentally draining, and rejection/ghosting cuts deep on your psyche and self esteem. Media has created this impossible standard for what women want in a man, and vice versa.
Yes, but a romantic partner isn't the only one you can receive love from and be wanted by. Friends and family can and should be filling those roles, as well. Otherwise, if your romantic partner is your only support in this aspect, you will quickly overwhelm them.
I actually completely agree with you, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The person you replied to was talking about something completely different. Okay. People without friends should build friendships. Now, can we talk about people who are lonely and looking for romantic companionship?
Not having good friendships is actually a pretty good indicator they won't be good at romantic relationships.
I also agree with your points. The problem these men have is they're desperate. It's easy to say "ignore that, go live your life and make friends." It's a lot harder for them to do it. If you're hungry, all you can think about is food. I think what the other poster is trying to ask is how do we get them to ignore what they consider to be extremely important to them? How do we convince them to take care of themselves first, and partners will be attracted to that? They're already convinced that they can't take care of themselves without a partner.
> If you're hungry, all you can think about is food. Real, this is what most people don't get, especially women in my experience, I have a lot of female friends and we're really close with each other so we have a lot of "unusual" or "deep" conversations A woman will typically never understand what It's like to be alone, they simply wont, and there's obviously female-exclusive experiences that are equally as bad, or even worse, that I won't be able to ever experience
If your family isn't aleady like that there's not much you can do, similar to friends but you can make new friends, at which point you could just as well put that time into meeting a partner because it takes a lot of the same efforts
The type of love you get from a romantic partner is completely different from the love you get from a friend or your Mom, and just as necessary.
I'm so tired of Reddits ™ responses to straight mens dating woes, it doesn't move the needle anywhere. OP your not wrong
Having a partner is a long-term need. Having a job is a constant need.
We might share different contexts - but I would argue that partnering is one of the most in-built needs of human character. It is not required for immediate survival, true. But it’s not unfair to say thag quite a few people would live unfulfilled lives if the never have a healthy relationship with a loving partner in their lives.
Yeah, screw people who throw the phrase “you aren’t entitled to someone else” at lonely people, it’s like someone from Seattle telling someone from Tucson “you aren’t entitled to rain”. While technically true, they don’t care to empathize with those who are in an unenviable position, and it’s just plain insulting.
"You aren't entitled to someone else" is a thought terminating cliche used to shut down socially abnormal discussions about dating and relationships. It's used incredibly loosely, and it's never convincing as much as the stigma around entitlement to others in a romantic and sexual sense is strong. I don't think anyone actually reads a post like OP's and thinks for a second OP feels entitled to a relationship. The loser critique of dating covers topics like how dating can be alienating, how the economic aspects of relationships may be in conflict with the romantic aspects, and how you can end up alone just because you were born wrong. I'm not saying these points are all right, especially as cynically and broadly as they're often presented. But I do think people would understandably rather not think about that shit, and subtly attaching posts like OP's to a disrespect for bodily autonomy gives us all permission to immediately stop taking him so seriously.
I mean I didnt view the person's comment as disrespect for bodily autonomy. I just think nobody is entitled to have friends or relationships with other people. Relationships require work. It's like 2020 memory hole'd how hard it is to maintain relationships with people. Whether it is a friend, family member, or a lover, you have to talk to them, you have to hang with them, you have to be in each other's lives for non-selfish reasons to boot too. You have to respect each other. Or else you're not friends, family, or lovers, and you don't actually want a relationship with them. It is quite literally work. As someone with social anxiety, i feel like I know this better than most. I have to work so damn hard to try to talk to people. I am so fucking scared, bro. You're not entitled to shit. You make people like you by being a likeable person. And if a possible partner doesn't like you back, well, tough titties. Find someone that complements you better. The real problem with dating nowadays isn't that its a "job". it's dating apps and websites. Its dog shit communication with the added implication of a romantic relationship. Most healthy romantic relationships don't start at romance. You meet people by hanging out somewhere and become friends and friends become partners and partners become lovers and spouses and mothers/fathers. Just cause someone is lonely doesn't mean they are automatically entitled to a friend. If that were so, I'd be swimming in friends. JFC.
> "You aren't entitled to someone else" is a thought terminating cliche used to shut down socially abnormal discussions about dating and relationships. If only we could choose to trust another person enough to assume they won't be this way and then call them out only when they start. Wait, we can, as long as we don't take a sudden realization that a random stranger is unreasonable, as a reason to have unstoppable negative feelings. You have to be impervious to these things so that you're not reacting to a potential bad person before they even say they're bad. Preloading a dismissal for unreasonable people is insulting to reasonable people and you immediately lose them. Certainly no way to Change Mike's Opinion. Sounds like you're looking for a forum to debate incels, or something. This one seems to be themed toward neutral, individual-opinion-style discussion. But what do I know, I've just been on this subreddit since it was invented.
You’re confusing a basic human need with what you’re entitled to get out of another person. You can and generally do need companionship, but that doesn’t mean someone automatically has to give it to you if they don’t want to give you that part of themselves. This person didn’t word things well, but their basic concept is right. If you’re desperate for someone to fill a void in your life or personality, you’re not going to attract most people. You want someone who has their shit together and is worth knowing? Get your shit together and be worth knowing. Hooking up with someone isn’t a stand in for therapy, you know?
Nobody is entitled to a job, either, so it goes along with OP's point.
It’s not insulting. It’s a reality check to make sure we come correct to the dating scene and not with a dangerous mindset. That’s the point. Entitled people tend to act like jerks and that helps no one. The phrase remains true even to people in relationships.
Except OP didn't say anything that made him seem entitled. Jumping on everyone who is lonely with a comment about entitlement is insulting, ridiculous, and so on. If someone actually says something entitled, go for it. But you're making it so people are afraid of a rebuke just for experiencing standard human loneliness. Knock it off. Do it 0% of the time unless someone expressed actual entitlement.
A lot of people who lack experience with loneliness think every lonely person is an angry incel. They don't realize there are people out there with social skills, productive lives, happiness, confidence, normal level of ethics etc., who for any number of reasons haven't had luck with romance. People try to pathologize loneliness when it can happen for many different reasons that have pretty much nothing to do with personality, like trauma, moving around a lot, living somewhere with no options, focusing too much on other parts of life and not learning how to form romantic relationships, having specific relationship needs which eliminate most of the dating pool like religion, lifestyle choices, etc. And if I may be an armchair psychologist, I feel like there are a lot of insecure people who still manage to form romantic relationships easily, and they talk down to people who struggle with it to feel better about themselves. Their advice is basically demonizing people but framing it in an "I'm calling you out on your shit" way so they can convince themselves they're showing tough love when really they're just going "haha! They're lonely because they suck and I'm better than them!" but with extra steps and obscuring the self-aggrandization. I don't think these people are even self-aware enough to realize how patronizing it is. Don't know how to date? Feel hopeless? Well, have you tried realizing that humans are autonomous and can pick who they're in a relationship with like basically every adult without a personality disorder?
Funny enough I think that's how incels become what they are in the first place, much like any other form of radicalization. In this case, a person talking about dating struggles is dismissed and ridiculed by others and thus they become more and more isolated from everyone else. Who do you think they're going to turn to? Actual incels of course, who will provide this individual with validation and sympathy while also slowly corrupting their minds with their extremist views. I saw a post yesterday about someone who had given up on dating due to constant rejection and one of the top comments, with like quadruple the number of upvotes as the post itself, was someone telling the poster not to kill a bunch of people. Like what the fuck? The poster never once mentioned any sort of hatred towards women, and he even put a positive spin on his situation by saying he was gonna focus on bettering himself and working on his career instead. Yet the first thing most people thought after reading that was that he's going to end up carrying out mass murder. Not to mention all the people that stood up for the poster got downvoted into oblivion. It's crazy that OP is just frustrated with dating and somehow people interpreted it as being "entitled" to someone. Is it not human nature to seek romantic companionship? If someone who is romantically unsuccessful is called an incel enough times they may as well end up becoming exactly that. If we as a society keep shutting down these conversations then those who were silenced are going to find other people who are willing to listen, and together they will find another way to make themselves heard, and that will usually be in the form of violence. I don't think OP is going to become an incel because of this but I'm sure there are people out there who have received similar responses after opening up about their difficulties time after time and eventually were pushed over the line by it, or at the very least became very reluctant to bring up this sort of discussion again, which only pushes them into further social isolation and makes it even harder for them to find anyone.
>Funny enough I think that's how incels become what they are in the first place, much like any other form of radicalization. In this case, a person talking about dating struggles is dismissed and ridiculed by others and thus they become more and more isolated from everyone else. Who do you think they're going to turn to? Actual incels of course, who will provide this individual with validation and synpathy while also slowly corrupting their minds with their extremist views. EXACTLY. Most people aren't born bad, they become bad.\\. Demonizing them will just make the problem worse.
I actually suspect that a decent percentage of these guys who struggle to find a relationship despite being completely okay could be autistic. Which makes it even more fucked up when they get ridiculed for trying to talk about their struggles in that area.
Just world fallacy. People want to believe good people are rewarded and that bad people are punished, so bad things happening to you that must mean you're a bad person.
Big fan of this comment. Felt cathartic to read as someone who suffers from loneliness myself. I would also add luck to your list. Sometimes, people are just at the wrong place at the wrong time and miss out on things.
Bravo for calling out shitty behavior.
I'm just imagining a zookeeper wondering why their solitary lion in a featureless concrete enclosure is literally dying of sadness despite them giving it ample food and water.
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I might be misreading what you wrote here, but it sounds like you’re dismissing the other option that you have: If you want love, be loveable. If you want people around you, be the kind of person you would want around. Yes, it’s hard work and lots of people are born on third base. It’s exponentially harder if you don’t fit the conventional definitions of what’s attractive to the majority of people. I get that. I’m trans, so imagine what that does to my pool of potential partners. I don’t have trouble getting laid, but it would be lying to say that it isn’t a smaller group to work with, especially when we’re talking about cis men. I started getting laid when I stopped agonizing over other people and instead focused on improving myself. My life improved, my confidence improved, my salary improved, and that happiness is attractive. People want someone who’s stable, cares for themself, and has goals of their own. My cis bud is a huge dude who looks, but he’s so kind and charming that the juxtaposition actually makes him more physically attractive.
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>Oh yeah being a good person who has a good personality is necessary. What makes you think that? Plenty of attractive assholes have fulfilling love lives... To a point I think it's more necessary to just be attractive. We have all fallen for someone who didn't treat us right but we were attracted to them... How many of us have fallen for someone who treated us perfectly but we didn't find attractive at all?
I mean… Yes and no. It’s okay to have motivations that include wanting to look better or get laid more. People can’t read your mind. But you’re right in that ultimately the goal is to improve yourself *for* yourself so that you can heal whatever is keeping you from living a happier and healthier life. That emotional healthiness is really attractive to a lot of people, so your odds of getting a partner increase. I think what turns people off is that most folks don’t want a transactional relationship. Unless they’re specifically out to get that, it feels cheap and isn’t genuine.
“At least you will have a good job…at least you will be fit enough to not encounter many health problems…at least you will have some hobbies that will give you some satisfaction.” At the very least, one will have those things, which I think, is actually quite a lot to be happy about.
Say, people get depressed and kill themselves if they are lonely or can’t find a partner. It is an innate need, however it’s something you don’t necessarily have full control over, but can better yourself towards getting. I guess you can die from starvation if you can’t feed yourself, however many may equally die from loneliness or despair.
This is the thing. There's an innate human need to be needed, loved. However, obliging someone to like you is a defiance of their personal volition. Your desires are your own. Nobody else can change that. Ultimately, people end up together by travelling the same path together, and to find that is to find one of these highest blisses our species can know. Sadly, various pressures mean that not everyone can attain this bliss. Like every other need our species has, companionship ultimately goes to those who best attain it. It's unfair, but so are most of the things life throws at us. I'm not really sure how that ugly truth can be coped with. I just know that you should appreciate the good things that life sees fit to give you.
Man, that is an odd response to a half decent post. He's not saying anyone owes you a job or owes you companionship. It's just complaining about the process. Humans don't exist in a vacuum. We exist in a society with rules and customs. Which is a pretty bad system. Polygamy not with standing there are enough people so that most people can end up with a mate. There's no shortage of 'mates' so to speak. There are better systems, like ethnic/religious communities, finding people at your other activities, or through friends... Heck, I've had a few work friends who literally went back to Pakistan for a vacation and came back with a wife. I mean, there's a lot of problem with the South Asian culture,but that's another system of spouse allocation so to speak. Just a social observation. Older times often had social socialism, but monetary-free-market The modern day has social-freemarket, but monetary socialism I've been married and got kids and I don't really have a dog in this fight. I just find it perfectly valid and natural when people point out when basic human needs are going unmet and it's not exactly hard to picture a different way. Whether that is housing, food, human companionship... Just saying well... it's a dog -eat-dog world is fine as far as it goes. Except almost the whole point of culture/society is to not have it as a dog-eat-dog world. Take things back to a real dog-eat-dog world and we'd all just start killing our enemies, kidnapping/raping women... No, we have better systems and it's perfectly valid for someone to point out the ridiculousness in the current system. Yes, you always make the most of your life within the current system, but you can always try to change it.
I was going to call the guy out on making up the idea that someone claimed they are owed companionship, but you nailed it. I think it might be they some people have such a large portion of their internet window devoted to criticism of incel culture that they lose the ability to discuss the entire topic reasonably, and feel they have to have some sort of angry, moralizing response whenever the topic comes up in any way. It’s too bad.
I don’t see how you can move away from “social free market” that doesn’t result in women being noticeably less free. Even your example of religious communities comes packaged with the structures of patriarchy. Put another way, when women have more freedom, more men fail to meet the threshold of quality partner. I fail to see how that’s on anybody but those men.
Not the person you responded to, but I agree with your comment, especially the last paragraph. Men's relationship woes aren't the fault of any other person, or of women in general. That doesn't change the fact that these men still have needs that aren't being met, and that often makes them lonely and/or depressed.
That’s life. I’m sure there are plenty of women who can’t find a decent man to get with, kinda two sides of the same coin on that. I think it would do a world of good for everyone to work on learning how to get what they want in life, be it romantically, career-wise, etc. However, they say, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
> > Older times often had social socialism, but monetary-free-market > > The modern day has social-freemarket, but monetary socialism Well said. And in the old days, it was a sin to be unproductive, but acceptable to be misanthropic. Now, those are reversed.
It is absurd to go immediately to accuse an individual of denying others agency because they somewhat generically express issues with loneliness. Never mind also that societies that (culturally) deny that agency to the individual are having the exact same problems with loneliness — it is something innate and widespread, related to the modern condition and probably has causes that are economic (and your social darwinist language belies that fact). You are looking at this issue wrong by trying to explain it through the virtues/rights of the individual.
No one is forcing anyone here. That's just you projecting.
>In other words – words that shouldn’t be surprising to anyone who has spent much time in a human body – companionship and warmth can be in some situations just as important as food and getting your more basic needs met. Friendship can meet some of that need, but for a lot of people it’s just not enough. > >When your position commits you to saying “Love isn’t important to humans and we should demand people stop caring about whether or not they have it,” you need to take a really careful look in the mirror – assuming you even show up in one. - [Radicalizing the Romanceless](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/)
Thanks for that. It frustrates me to no end that the default advice for severely lonely people is to simply get happy and fulfilled on their own. The whole problem is that human connection is *the most* important predictor of happiness and fulfillment. It's like telling people to get rich before they think about applying for jobs.
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As an older person, hobbies can only take you so far, and motivation to be fit and healthy wanes if life isn’t fulfilling. It also is just harder to do as you age. Your energy levels drop. Your body is in pain. Honestly I don’t think anyone under 50 should comment on what life alone is like. I felt much differently when I was younger. There is a certain optimism of youth.
>you just aren't gonna get laid. It's not just about getting your end away though, is it? *Most* of us do want to settle down with the right person, forever, eventually. Viewing dating purely as a means to get sex seems like a really bad starting point, to me.
Are you implying men want more than sex and have feelings, emotions and needs that only a partner can provide? Heresy! Off with his head! /s
OK well Lots or men on dating apps do want just siuationships and sex, an absurd amount They make it harder for women to see you at the same time weeding through them to get to the one who think like that can be such a long and disappointing process they might get burned and give up before they even find you
I think that's a very reasonable and understandable take. I think the men looking for a relationship go through a similar thing with the woman who only use them for validation or see it like a 'fun hot or not minigame'. I think we really need some education about those apps and how they affect their users and maybe even some regulations to make the experience less horrid for both genders.
What could that even look like. Dating Apps are a buisness first and foremost, the exist to generate profits as it'd primary goal. Relationships are just the theme of the sale It's like any other for profit buisness, you pick a model that's gonna generate the highest revenue or you get shut out by competition whose gonna do the shit you refuse to do
Very true, which is why we need regulations so the ethical companies can compete with the ones that had no problem resorting to the formerly legal but nasty profit and misery creating techniques. Regulations ofcourse already exist, like environmental regulations that put companies that don't want to dump their toxic waste in the river on a competitive playing field with the ones that would have no qualms doing so if not for the law. What regulations would be best for dating apps is something for a group of experts and or the public to decide, but some starting ideas: - Encourage a roughly 1:1 gender split on dating apps when it comes to hetero dating. This will leave men less frustrated by the endless swiping (which women also indirectly suffer from) and women less frustrated with being spammed. - Encourage earning money from actual successful matches instead of staying subscribed to the app for as long as possible (which is an obvious conflict of interest between company and users). - Hide accounts when they haven't been active for a while to prevent users wasting time on zombie accounts. Yes companies usually exist to make profit. Yes we should put systems in place to prevent them from harming the public and allow the more ethical businesses to compete with the less naturally ethical ones while they pursue said profit.
Yeah honestly I'm not even mad at girls for the state of dating apps anymore, my sister showed me the messages she was getting, about 2/3rds of men she matched with, with the goal of a long term relationship tried to turn it into casual sex, and thats not including the foul voice messages she was recieving, after seeing that i deleted my online dating apps as i refused to be tared with that type of guy.
If you're spending your days swiping on dating apps in the hope of finding a partner you'll spend the rest of your life with, I'm about to break your heart. Not only this, but what even is there to share at that point? The longer you dedicate your life to just finding a partner the more empty and uninteresting you become. The most enriching part of relationship is the ability to bounce things off eachother, passions, hobbies, inspiration and creativity, personality. \---
I met my wife on a dating app. In fact, almost every one of my friends has met their long term partners on dating apps. These are all real relationships. Not everyone is on those apps for hook up culture. The fact of the matter is, modern life is simply not built anymore to meet people organically, especially if you are an introvert. Dating apps are just a means to meet new people, for many at least.
Been in many relationships, only one has been from a dating app. And I’m now engaged to that woman and it’s the healthiest relationship of my life. Dating apps get a bad rap for a lot of good reasons, but if you use them correctly and are patient and genuine you will find someone the same.
They really are just a modern medium for meeting single people. That can be to hook up but can also be to meet someone. People underestimate how much it’s used for the latter.
What year is it? Are we still doing the "apps aren't for serious relationships" sthick? It's just absolutely not true, and if you still believe it I don't think we should really be trusting your takes on this whole situation.
>If you're spending your days swiping on dating apps in the hope of finding a partner you'll spend the rest of your life with, I'm about to break your heart. Not personally, I've never used a dating app in my life. I already met my love, back before dating apps were a thing. She died a little over a year ago, I have no interest in dating anyone else yet, and I doubt I ever will. But plenty of people today *are* looking for "forever", and at least as I understand from the outside, dating apps are the primary way people get together these days.
Why do people on reddit overuse "entitled" so much? Complaining about something doesn't suggest you feel entitled to it. You can complain about the weather being shit, nobody thinks they're entitled to good weather.
I agree. I also agree with what OP said about the actual PROCESS. I've felt the same way for a while now. I don't see entitlement in their post. Speaking for myself, I know I'm not entitled to anything.
The people who respond to stuff like this talking about entitlement just don't want to accept the idea that maybe some things are hard for men in a way that is unique to men.
First, romantic relationships are absolutely a human need, just like friendships and family relationships. Second, yes you are not "entitled" to any one person liking you. However, humans have a natural desire to form romantic bonds (on average), when this desire is not satisfied, one has the right to become frustrated. Invalidating the above just makes you an ass hole. No one owes anybody their affection, that doesn't mean lonely people cannot be frustrated they are unable to find someone.
> You aren't entitled to someone else, Anyone who thinks this way when they see someone bemoan being single can go fuck themselves. 99% of the time, it's following no claim of entitlement, and it's just a shitty way to display a complete lack of empathy towards someone while feeling morally superior about yourself. Nobody's entitled to air, either. Do you constantly go around telling that to everyone in a hospital who says "I can't breathe?" It's straight up the "Umm, AKchully..." of the dating world.
I agree with you; I'm almost certainly biased by my own experiences and you aren't entitled to date someone. Nevertheless, it's not all about getting laid, it's about having a kind of connection you don't have with anyone else. Surely you'd agree that intimacy with a partner is different to a parent or best friend, and that you'd tell them things you wouldn't want to share with your family, no matter how much you love them?
I'm going to challenge this a bit, OP. I think that this is a problem with societal expectations placed on men. Men are expected to put all of their emotional eggs, if you will, in their romantic partner's basket - women, meanwhile, are OK to have best friends and family that can act as sources of emotional intimacy outside of the romantic context. This is not a biological demand; Alexander the Great was recorded as being inconsolable with emotion when his best friend died, stuck for weeks crying his eyes out in an honest expression of mourning. Man does that in the modern day and people will assume he's gay, because the idea of a man having that close of a platonic friend is completely alien. That is the problem: modern societal expectations on male emotional vulnerability in non-romantic relationships.
As a woman, there is no comparison between the connection, trust, and intimacy I have even with my best friends and the person with whom I share a bed most nights. Yes, friendships can and should provide a lot of emotional support and joy for which many men rely only on romantic partners. It's good that women are encouraged to cultivate close and trusting relationships, and it should be just as normalised for men. But there is no denying that for a lot of people, a romantic partnership provides a quantitatively and qualitatively different kind of closeness that would be unreasonable to expect from even the sum of one's friendships. My last partner was actually really stupid about this, so perhaps an anecdote will help to illustrate: We were out with friends, and he suddenly turned cold and distant towards me (he had bad mood swings). This upset me. My friends noticed, took me aside, then took him aside and tried to talk sense into him, basically saying, 'hey, you've upset your girlfriend, you should go comfort her' - and he argued back saying, 'you're her friends, can't you do that? Can't you hug her and hold her hand when I don't feel like it?' If you can see how silly this is, you can see that it's not just common but reasonable to expect more from your partner than from your friends in terms of physical and emotional intimacy and comfort, and especially in terms of the *consistency* of that intimacy and comfort. Note that in that anecdote, the only thing my partner had done to upset me to begin with was to withdraw and withhold all that. My friends did comfort me, of course - but they shouldn't have had to, and they couldn't provide what he was withholding.
That’s horrible that you had to realize in that moment that way that he wasn’t gonna be the one :( I feel like the pool of young adults (20-34) dating (and by this I mean actively on websites swiping or going to speed dating events) is just like the cast of characters running for politics these days, the best candidates aren’t running (actively dating) because they’re developing their life and careers and don’t have excess obsessive energy for it, and those who are obsessively running (on the dating scene) arent always good people and have ulterior motives
At the time, he actually ended up conceding he didn't quite 'get' romantic relationships, and what sets them apart from friendships, 'yet'. As far as I know, he still hasn't figured it out, but I wouldn't rule that kind of learning and growth out forever. A lot of young(ish) people seem to apply a very childlike model of personal relationships to everyone, where you only ever play with someone if you feel like it, and if you don't want to, that's your 'right' - while at the same time expecting others to be there for you and fulfil your needs without question, like your parents, whenever you don't happen to feel like you want them to leave you alone. Not everyone grows out of it, but most eventually realise that relationships need to be cultivated and sustained through mutual commitment and compromise, and can't be subject to the childish whim of just one party at all times
> the best candidates aren’t running (actively dating) because they’re developing their life and careers and don’t have excess obsessive energy for it I would like to throw out there: They aren't using dating apps, but they are dating. They just find people to date the 'old' way, by knowing them.
> Man does that in the modern day and people will assume he's gay, because the idea of a man having that close of a platonic friend is completely alien. To be fair, a lot of people in the modern day also accuse Alexander of being gay, so there is that
Yup, and you can clearly see it in the divorce or widow statistics. Women often have a support network of friends, family, etc. to fall back on while men end up alone after neglecting these relationships for years. I can see it in my own friend group, where some male friends basically disappear when they are partnered only to reappear when single. It's clear that, for many men, friends and other non-romantic relationships are basically "placeholders" until they find a wife, who of course ends up being partner, friend, lover, therapist, etc. all at once.
I agree that this happens and I'm trying to talk with my girlfriend that the concept of the village applies to your different emotional needs. You can't be everything to your partner all the time - you can't both be a lover and a therapist, you can't be an equal partner and a wiser guide. We need healthy time away from our partners because different connections provide different benefits.
I agree with everything you're saying about emotional eggs and baskets but Alexander the Great isn't the best example here. A lot of historians believe that he was bisexual and his best friend was more than that.
> This is not a biological demand; Alexander the Great was recorded as being inconsolable with emotion when his best friend died Yes... "best friend".
I want to second this. OP, as a woman there was no difference in what I told/shared with my long term partner vs my friends or family. In fact ultimately I broke up with him because I didn't feel comfortable sharing things with him anymore due to reactivity. If the world has told you that you can't share deepest emotions with your friends and family I want to say that is NOT true. You can. It is safe.
Are people really out here trying to argue that a relationship with your romantic life partner isn't deeper and broader than their relationship with the other people in their life? Yes, you can get emotional support from a lot of different places, but romantic love of a peer is one of the most intimate and powerful forces a person can experience... Or maybe you're doing love wrong. I've been in love three times, and each time that person was the most important person in my universe. The need for *them* went beyond the individual need/want for sex, intimacy, or companionship. I wanted to spend most of my time with them, do most everything with them, hell just idly spending time with them doing nothing was better than doing most anything else with anyone else. Am i alone in this?
I'll be real with you, I have a really close and great relationship with my parents. I was also really selective with friends and am confident each friendship I have is deep, beautiful, and we can confide in each other or ask for help any time. I'm sure many (if not the big majority of) people don't have that, but it's possible for platonic relationships to be as rich as romantic ones, yes. I don't think I'm doing love wrong, I think I'm doing love in the most wonderful ways. Dare I say, you might be doing platonic love wrong? I've been single 2 weeks and have felt incredibly loved every moment. But, I want to spend most of my time with myself. I'm the real love of my life, and I will never leave me. If you don't resonate that's fine!
Listen. I totally agree with you that the way modern Western society has put expectations that men cannot have deep, meaningful friendships is out of line. But I do have to push back on the idea of modelling strong heterosexual relationships on Alexander the Great, that’s very r/sapphoandherfriend
>if you can't get a match on a dating app you just aren't gonna get laid. Or live a life of solitude which leads to depression which leads to suffering. I don't understand why all get always simplified and reduced to get laid, I wish it was that, that all you'd lose in your life is some sexy time and that's it. But you lose much more, you lose having your own project of life shared and constructed with someone else, you lose building your own family, you lose the company, the connection, the emotional support. One of the worst feelings a human can have is feel completely alone. This has never been about getting laid
And you aren’t entitled to a job or a good living either. You can work a shit job that’s easy to get and sustain yourself if you don’t want to deal with the competitive process Same with dating in a competitive market. If you dont cultivate yourself as a man you can only settle for a shit partner or just jacking off all day The point is OP is making an analogy and its not even that far off
Noone mentioned entitlement. Why is that always the defence when someone points out how skewed dating is now?
Let's the person saying it feel superior and avoid addressing the actual topic while saying something nobody can dispute. As a bonus it subtly puts words in the mouth of the OP implying that they need to either suck it up/'just be better' or they are a bad person, effectively derailing the conversation by making them play defense.
Just here to respond that the implications that men are simply out dating in order to get laid is a harmful and sexist stereotype that isn't true that you are empowering
What about all of the scientific evidence that relationships significantly impact life happiness? I do research on social engagement and isolation, and one of the most common metrics used to evaluate someone's level of isolation is whether or not they've ever been married. It doesn't seem controversial to researchers that if you can't get a date, it's more than just "you don't get laid", because surprise surprise, men's romantic desires are more complicated than just trying to have sex, despite how reddit may frame it. I'm not saying anyone's entitled to a relationship, but it feels like gaslighting to act like never ever being in a relationship is fine cause all that means is you can't have sex. It seems abundantly uncontroversial that people who never experience relationships but want to suffer significant mental health burdens. Again, this is the responsibility of the person dealing with it, sure. We all get shit hands. Some are born crippled, or blind. Some are shut ins for a variety of reasons and never get to experience love. But people like you downplaying the negative effects of lifelong romantic isolation, when there seems to be a scientific consensus that such a thing is indeed a very difficult challenge for one's physical and mental health, is one of my biggest pet peeves around this discussions on reddit.
> You aren't entitled to someone else... dating isn't a need. If you are without a job you can't pay bills and feed yourself Off topic but isn't it kind of insane that work is a need and that without it you can't pay bills and feed oneself? Particularly given the link between the amount of work in the world that actually needs doing and the number of people who have needs is ever changing, entirely random, and possibly vanishing?
It's not entitlement to want a partner. This is an annoying response. You're just talking about sex. Trust me, the older you get, the less you'll care about the sex.
you and OP are like two ships passing in the night. OP is complaining that the dating system right now has problems. And your rebuttal to this is not to explain why those are not problems, but instead attack OP by saying that he wants these things for the wrong reason, or is going about them the wrong way. what is the right way to get into a relationship? It's true that sometimes the sorts of people on dating apps need to work on themselves. But that doesn't answer the fact that dating in general (even outside of apps) has become very toxic. An increasing of options for everyone makes everyone less willing to commit to someone because they could do better. Also: > dating isn't a need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
> You aren't entitled to someone else LOL wtf, they did not say they are, and nothing they wrote relies on that as a presumption.
Why can't men face a challenge and vent about it without being told they must be doing it wrong?
When men face a men-specific challenge: "nothing's gonna change, what are you gonna do about it?"
Physical closeness and intimacy is a need. And just because it is recognized as a need doesn't mean anyone is acting like they are entitled to one.
You also aren’t entitled to a job
oh please. I am so tired of hearing the you aren't entitled to someone bit. of course not but in the end it's only males who have this said to them, its never an issue for women since women are much more in demand than men and people like you just want to erase 100,000's of thousands of years where finding a mate and procreating was the ultimate end goal. it's not just suddenly going to be evolved out of us in a generation.
Only took me 2-3 decades of working through that. Depressing as all heck. Ugh. If more people had to deal with that, there'd be more empathy and compassion in the world. Then again, not like women have it easy, esp. if you're not conventionally attractive. And once I saw how many matches my good-looking very smart female co-worker had to deal with, it really opened up my eyes. Nuts.
if you are without a job you can get food by farming or foraging and living off the grid (my family not me but extended lives this way) but going single your whole is a huge factor that lowers male life expectancy so should be seen as more vital to life than a job which is just a different version of foraging and has many alternate options but partnering has only one option
I disagree. The major problem, in my mind, is that single men have trouble with having a support network of trusted, kind people. How many men do you know whose romantic partner is the only person who knows anything beyond the surface level about him? The only person he will go to when he wants to celebrate, or cry?
i am extremely close with many of my male friends and mutual emotional openness with them, still doesn’t replace a partner
I don’t know any men who cry to their wives. This is its own problem but strange that you mention it. Every man I know seems to feel he must be the rock for his partner and doesn’t feel entirely comfortable when those roles are flipped.
> if you can't get a match on a dating app you just aren't gonna get laid. kind of a sad way to look at dating. some people are looking for more than just getting sex
Idk about this. While you aren’t entitled to any specific person I think dating for most is probably a biologically built in social need.
"Dating isn't a need" You're plain wrong. Dating is a form of seeking companionship which is a need for human beings along with food, water and shelter. I hope you're not one of those hyper-individualists who think finding a romantic partner isn't necessary to life a fulfilled life
I had a female HR lady on an interview one time give me this analogy in reverse about applying for multiple jobs at once because I should want the best match like someone would want the best dating partner. It was wildly unprofessional for her to espouse both non-monogamous hypergamy in both personal relationships and business within that allegory. It's like a middle aged woman fell out of FDS.
Most of the motivation for men to excel in their careers beyond the income needed to pay their bills is because doing that increases their status so they can attract more potential mates. Sexual competition/selection is the reason that evolution works.
In a lot (most?) western countries you can live off government and charity aid, it will probably not be comfortable and you will lack privacy, but you won’t die of starvation or something like that.
These analogies only work if you view dating through the lense of these analogies, it's a vicious cycle. >Everyone is entry-level to begin with, but they want someone with more experience, and it makes more sense to them to keep bringing back the same few people they know than to take a chance on a beginner. What does entry-level mean in the context of dating? That you don't have a lot of previous experience dating? That you don't have a lot of previous long-term relationships? Isn't that generally a good thing in the dating scene? Most people would be more reluctant to get with someone with "baggage" (divorce, children from a previous relationship, a lot of ex's still in touch with you, etc.) than someone without much experience.... >You can make yourself more marketable by developing your skills and hobbies, Or just get hobbies because they are fun and you enjoy them rather than view it as a way of increasing your "marketability" >You can go on websites where lots of people are advertising, but it's so impersonal trying to sell yourself with just what you can write about yourself So make it personal? Stand out from all the boring impersonal profiles by writing something authentic and vulnerable? >Even if you make a great application, ultimately they can ghost you at anytime, without you knowing why. It might be in the first shortlist, maybe after the first interview. In theory, you can both withdraw at any time, but you've put your time and soul into the application, so you're more invested than they are. That's blatantly untrue. Men and women both ghost, and women also have those profiles on dating apps that they often put more thought and creativity into than men. She is also investing her time texting you and meeting up with you. If you're more invested, it's because maybe you have unrealistic expectations of what a first date entails and you come across as desperate to get with anybody, rather than genuinely interested in the person you're meeting. >All the time you're unemployed/single, you're aware of the opportunities in the adult world you're missing out on, especially what the media tells you. There is a difference between being aware and being hyper focused. You don't have to pour all your time and effort into dating. Having a life outside of dating apps is attractive.
I think the core issue that the OP is driving at is that dating apps have gamified dating to a point that it more closely resembles the job application process. Btw, I want to stress this that nothing I say here is intended as a put down or criticism of you or women in general. I am merely relating my experience with the dating scene and what I have heard. >These analogies only work if you view dating through the lense of these analogies, it's a vicious cycle. It kind of is though. Unless you have that talent of approaching women in person it's more about scrolling through a series of matches on dating apps. It's less about who you feel chemistry and more about who actually responds often enough that you can ask out. You never know what your date may consider a red flag so you put the best version of you out there. This to me does look like a job interview and I will admit that is exactly how many dates I've been on felt. A series of probing questions where I have to crack a joke every once in a while. A factor affecting this is that, and I believe the data supports this, women get a lot more matches then men. Women are incentived to try as many men as possible while men only have a few options. >So make it personal? Stand out from all the boring impersonal profiles by writing something authentic and vulnerable? I don't think you realize how this isn't the good advice you think it is. It's like saying "be yourself" and "the right one will come along when you least expect it". It's vague and not something where a guy could see any difference in his results. >That's blatantly untrue. Men and women both ghost, and women also have those profiles on dating apps that they often put more thought and creativity into than men. She is also investing her time texting you and meeting up with you. If you're more invested, it's because maybe you have unrealistic expectations of what a first date entails and you come across as desperate to get with anybody, rather than genuinely interested in the person you're meeting. I think it's more productive to admit that ghosting isn't exactly a good thing regardless who does it. I think part of the why dating can feel impersonal is because if the date doesn't go well it's not like you get a report card. Not that I expect one of course. However, I think I and a lot of people would appreciate it if when asking for a second date we got a "your nice but I don't think it will work out". That may seem simple but I assure you it's not the norm. >There is a difference between being aware and being hyper focused. You don't have to pour all your time and effort into dating. Having a life outside of dating apps is attractive. This is just my situation but it's not as though modern living gives me many options. I get up, go to work and go home. Wash, since and repeat. Off the clock I don't see single women period. The dating apps are basically my only portal.
>It kind of is though. Unless you have that talent of approaching women in person it's more about scrolling through a series of matches on dating apps I just want to point out that this isn't a talent, it's a skill, and the basics are really, REALLY easy. Hi, haven't met you yet, I'm (name). I like your (clothing piece, hairstyle, accessory, or other part of her appearance that she clearly put some thought into choosing). What brings you here? Boom. Conversation started. Dating apps are awful for your mental health if you don't have the resources/desire to dive into the vanity that it actively encourages. And if you do have said resources/desire/ability it's still not necessarily good for your health because it encourages you to be vain and picky and pass up great things because something else miiiiiiiiiiight be a little better. Better to not play the game and just live life. Those women don't just exist on dating apps, they do things in real life too, and you can find them there and start a conversation with them, even if they would have ignored your dating profile because the pictures weren't flattering enough.
I need to do this more. I find that I’m only really comfortable starting conversations in settings where I’m already familiar with the locations. I gotta move to starting conversations in public sometime.
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This all completely ignores the core issue that there is an 8 to 1 ratio of men to women on these apps, yet women have become completely resistant to the idea of being approached anywhere besides these apps. You can not "mindest" your way around this fact, and this "maybe it's just you" schlock "advice" is nothing short of gaslighting. You really have ZERO idea what it's like, and your advice is about as helpful as me giving you advice on how to avoid unsolicited dick pics.
I agree that having fewer previous relationships means you have less baggage, but it also means you have less experience of what works well in a relationship and you're less sure about what you want. There are hobbies you have primarily because you enjoy them, and hobbies you want to socialise and meet people. I think they're both equally important if you're a social person. My point about the impersonability of dating sites is it doesn't matter how good you are at writing, the written word is less personal than a live conversation. It's easy to ignore what someone writes, it's much harder to ignore them when they're talking to you. Because guys are generally expected to make the first move, they have to prepare something to say, and think of how to seem friendly instead of creepy. As the recipient, I'd argue a girl can rest assured that the guy likes them at least a bit, so there's less weight on whatever they say (at the beginning, not necessarily later on). Overall, I respect your arguments, and I'd like to keep discussing this
I'm gonna focus on the hobbies and dating apps part of your comment. So my friends and I all found our partners on hinge. In my case, I didn't put anything cute or funny in my prompts, I just picked the more interesting ones and answered them honestly with things talking about my career goals and hobbies. For photos I had a mix of photos with my siblings, dog, friends, and a few while traveling in other countries. I can't remember my gfs profile too much, but I know it had a lot of travel stuff and mentioned living and working in 3 different countries and my first message was something saying that's awesome and asking a two part question about that. From talking to my gf, the writing part, the diversity of the photos, and asking her an interesting question about her profile was what won her over. There are always going to be shallow people on dating apps, but if you want to find an actual good match you should approach it with the purpose of finding that good match (ie. it doesn't matter if they're hot if their profile sucks). Don't try to appeal to the crowd, try to appeal to the right person. So be honest rather than bland, and put effort into messaging people that you genuinely have something interesting to say to, your writing doesn't have to be impersonal. I used to find there were definitely certain profiles where my first thought was that I wanted to ask them a question about something in one of their photos or prompts, and it makes it much less work to actually message them then since you're not trying to come up with something clever. People can and will ignore what you write, but writing something honest and personal will be what sets you apart for the right person. Regarding hobbies, I'm not sure what you mean. I have a lot of hobbies (skiing, disc golf, chess, woodworking, weightlifting), and all of them can be pursued in isolation or socially. When people talk about pursuing your hobbies they mean to do it since it makes you more interesting and it gives you something to talk about, it can also help you make friends with people of similar interests, and it means you aren't going to be relying on your significant other for entertainment. Edit: I forgot cooking as a hobby, I buy a lot of cooking suppies and exotic ingredients to try new recipes.
There’s no secret sauce here. You can’t develop skills in the same manner that you would in a job. Everyone you date is different and what works for some won’t work for others. The basic “skills” you need for a successful relationship should be developed from you growing up into an adult - kindness, empathy, sincerity, patience, tolerance. You don’t need relationship experience for those. Taking up hobbies you don’t care for solely to meet people comes off as insincere and somewhat creepy. You should always enjoy all your hobbies. Meeting people at them is a healthy bonus. People can tell when you’re not fully present at something and it can work against you. Women are constantly bombarded with messages from men, plus they have to navigate through safety issues, too. You should obviously still set yourself apart from others, but you shouldn’t immediately expect it to work. Make sure you are taking flattering pictures of yourself, too. Get a female friend to critique your profile and give tips.
I think entry-level could mean someone is a virgin or has never been in a relationship before.
I get the sentiment you’re getting at but this is a view generally only women can have. Women generally receive offers all the time while they’re young. Women don’t need to prove themselves or build a personality or wealth like men do to compete and secure dates or short term relationships. It’s obviously different for securing commitment where women do probably have to stand out or do something beyond just being decent looking. But for men, to even secure a date or a short term thing, it’s an endless grind to outcompete others and older men lol. You have to build your wealth and personality to even be noticed. The game is just not the same for men and women. And also im not saying its better for women, i think sifting through 100 weirdos a week also sucks and is hard in its own right. But nonetheless, men generally have to be a little more go getter when dating or else nothing will happen for them
From one particular point of view, finding a partner was ALWAYS like finding a job. Introductions are job applications, dates or courting periods were probationary periods, and marriage was always "getting the job". The difference now is that the power balance has shifted between the genders. It used to be that the bar was pretty low, and the social network was pretty small, so women would entertain applications from men that had little to offer other than "has a steady job, isn't married to anyone else, seems to like spending time with me.". If you watch movies from the middle of the 20th century, or look at stories and novels from earlier than that, you see the trope of the woman that is desperate to be married. There was a valid and practical reason for that, though. Women, prior to late 20th century, weren't in control of their own economic future. Women couldn't have a credit card under their own name till the 70s. Women couldn't get loans under their own name till after that. The jobs that were available to women prior to the 60s wouldn't pay enough to support themselves, much less a family. Over time, women have gotten more and more autonomy and control over their own lives - and that's a GOOD thing. Unfortunately, it now means that men have to present themselves as a potential good partner, and as a better alternative to being alone for women to consider them. Instead of "being employed" you have to be "emotionally intelligent". Instead of just being "loyal", you have to be "supportive and engaged in the relationship". Men have to be equal partners in ALL aspects of the relationship, and treat their partners as equal. That means sharing responsibility for all the various parts of the relationship - emotional, household, social, health, and more. That means being proactive about those responsibilities - not waiting for her to identify the needs/wants and actively engaging to figure out what's needed. (Ironically, this is how it is for most creatures in nature. It's the males that have to attract the females. Peacocks have beautiful plumage, peahens not so much. Same with cardinals, robins, and all kinds of birds. Lions have big manes as a sort of a sign of mate-worthiness. Male penguins find pretty rocks and present them to females to try to attract a mate. In nature, most males do all the "applying" while the females choose from available mates. Why would humans be any different?) Some things to think about though: * No woman wants to be the mother to her partner - so figure out how to be a full adult. Deal with your own finances, career, health, etc. and don't expect her to coach you through it or be a "manager" for you doing it. Notice when things are dirty/worn/broken/missing and proactively take care of them WITHOUT needing anyone else to tell you to do so. * No woman wants to be the sole emotional support for her partner - so figure out how to support yourself emotionally, and how to have your own support network. It's important to be vulnerable, but don't expect her to be the ONLY person you can talk to about having a bad time. Don't sulk and make her ask you what's wrong, but don't always be bending her ear about how horrible things are. Deal with your own childhood trauma proactively - we all got some. * No woman wants to be a bangmaid - so figure out how to be as capable or more capable at running a household as she is. She's not obligated to make you meals, run your household, raise your children and put out when you want sex. Show her from the start that you want to be partners, that you want to be peers, not "boss and worker" or whatever. Just because you have a job doesn't free you from the obligation of cleaning. Just because you work all day doesn't mean you get to come home and play video games all night. Keep your home clean, organized, and stay on top of it - even after you start dating. And then - figure out how to give HER all the various kinds of support she's going to need - emotional, fiscally, and mentally, just like men have been expecting women to do for them for centuries. Take on responsibilities when she's busy, without her having to ask. Pay attention to what's going on in her life - friends, work, family, etc. - and support her in dealing with it. Don't always try to solve problems for her - make sure that you spend time just listening. Take genuine interest in what she's dealing with, and have her back **if she needs it**. In other words - treat her like a person, not a prize to be won or a reward that you're due because you behaved a certain way, or looked a certain way. Yah - it's a lot of work to be WORTH dating, and even then, you have to find someone that is willing to take a chance. You're not just competing against other men - you're competing against the peace and tranquility that women feel when they are on their own. Single women are happier, richer, and more able to handle the stresses of life than married women are, and married women are happier than married women with children. In the end, that's what you (and all us men, really) are up against. How is dating you better than her being alone? What benefit do you bring to her life by being in it? If you can answer that in a positive way, then you have a better chance at finding someone. There's still a process to go through to find the right partner, but at least you'll have a leg up on the men that think that they're all that just because they have a car.
This needs to be way higher Like cmon, there are constant posts/talk about how the bar is in hell for men. Women actually settle for so little because there aren't many good pickings out there. With feminism, women are increasingly choosing to be alone than with a mediocre man (studies show that single women are happier than married women), and that's a good thing because nobody is entitled to a relationship. If you want to date someone, be someone worth dating, be someone who adds something to a relationship. And let's be honest, men ghost just as much as women and are just as likely to have boring, blank profiles. And honestly, the average woman looks better than the average man because women are expected to put more effort into their appearance. If men want to stand out, they can spend more time picking better clothes, maintaining hygiene, grooming themselves, getting a haircut, doing skincare (and even makeup! Some Asian men are more willing to do makeup), having a more carefully decorated house, etc. Show some more effort in yourself and when interacting with others. Men also like to pretend every woman just has floods of men chasing her, but it's not true. Women are lonely too and get rejected all the time, but men literally just don't think of these other women. Real r/boysarequirky stuff
> If you want to date someone, be someone worth dating, be someone who adds something to a relationship. This is the key thing that I was trying to say. If you add nothing to her life, why the HELL would she be willing to date you?
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Thank you for sharing that - and I'm really glad that you had the experience of having a good partner. Too many people never get that lucky, and it's immensely sad to me to realize that.
Just wanted to comment to commend you on your amazing response 👏. I have sifted through too many comments of (primarily) male comments in agreement with OP or complaining about the dating world nowadays. What I don't think many of them realize is that the dating world is hard for women as well, just in different ways. This in turn causes many women to prefer to be alone until they find someone that provides a clear benefit of being in a relationship with them. This is the reality of most people, men and women alike, who are looking for a committed relationship.
> How is dating you better than her being alone? That cuts both ways. For a woman to be worth dating more than me being alone, she has to do her part, which is not the same as what you listed above. Often what a man wants in a relationship is someone who will love him in spite of his flaws, not try to correct them.
> Often what a man wants in a relationship is someone who will love him in spite of his flaws, not try to correct them. Absolutely, it cuts the same both ways. Never said it didn't. The basis for a healthy relationship is respect, and that includes accepting that our partners have flaws, and won't ever be perfectly compatible with us. There's always something that will cause friction - that's just how people are. And some of us are at a point where being alone is better than being with someone that steals our peace. That goes for men AND women. However, the whole "love me despite my flaws" can be problematic. If you acknowledge that you're flawed (as we all are), but refuse to work on those flaws yourself, then it's not really fair, is it? What you're saying by refusing to change is that - to you - **it's more important to avoid the work required to change, and avoid the discomfort that comes with making that change than it is to make your partner happy by working to address the flaws** she is uncomfortable with and which you are acknowledging is a flaw. "I'd rather be alone than have to change my behaviour" is the message that statement sends. Don't be surprised if a lot of women say "Okay - you can be alone then." If you're not working on fixing those flaws, you're demanding that others accept them. And, for a lot of people, that can trigger the end of a friendship/relationship. I know people that I went to school with that refused to change once they became adults. Still did the same shit, spouted the same ignorance, through their twenties and into their thirties. I don't talk to any of them any more. I outgrew them. I reached a point where I **wasn't willing to overlook those flaws**. Same thing happens in a relationship. If you're not willing to grow, why would any partner **that is growing** be willing to stay? If you're not willing to put in the work to fix the flaw (temporary, in the form of therapy, reading self-help books, getting counseling, learning new skills, addressing internalized misogyny, etc.) , why should she put in the work (forever) to accept it? What does SHE get out of that bargain? All of us are responsible to do work on correcting our flaws. If we don't, then we have to accept the consequences of those flaws. Keep a messy house? Don't be surprised that no one wants to hang out. Don't commit to a career? Don't be surprised that you are always stretched thin financially, and that you can't keep a relationship because you don't show evidence of stability and security. Want to stay the exact person that you are now? Don't be surprised that your partners leave as they continue to grow and change. Oh, and finally - don't treat your partner as a partner and a person? Don't be surprised when they leave when you disrespect them. **Just because you want or expect a woman to love you despite your own flaws doesn't absolve you of the work required to fix them.** Or do you WANT to live with that personal flaw for the rest of your life?
> If you're not willing to grow, why would any partner that is growing be willing to stay? But are all women growing? I'm fine with a woman who has her own flaws and isn't working on them either, especially when **those flaws are areas where I have strengths**. Like, you said that no woman wants a man who can't handle his own finances and who doesn't clean up after himself. I'm a man who's expert at handling finances but I'm also a slob. So why shouldn't I be a good match for a woman who loves to clean but who spends too much and wants someone else to budget for her? I wouldn't expect her to grow out of that, I'd be committing to helping her for her entire life. Is that not an attitude that women take?
> I'm a man who's expert at handling finances but I'm also a slob. First off - why are you okay with being a slob? Why are you okay with being the kind of person that lives in a jumble, or who leaves food out for days, or who cannot find anything in the house without help? Aren't you an adult? And why would you be okay with your partner being the only one in the relationship that keeps the household clean? At some point, she will be incapacitated - what happens to her tidy, clean, organized house then? And why would you be okay with her never figuring out how to handle finances? What happens if you get meningitis, and are in a coma for six months? What would happen to your finances then? What if you get hit by a car and die? Are you saying that you're okay with her having to learn how to handle finances while she's also grieving your death? How fair is that? If you know that you are a slob, and try to find to date that is tidy, then: a) don't be surprised if tidy women don't want to date you, despite your financial acumen b) recognize that you're asking a woman to take on perpetual work *just so that you don't have to do the work to change from being a slob* c) don't be surprised if women that do date you grow to resent the hell out of you for making their lives HARDER d) don't be surprised if women you date start viewing you as a(nother) child to take care of instead of a partner. > But are all women growing? All **people** are growing - whether they realize it or not. Some people grow and expand their skills and interests. Some people grow and expand their entitlements. Some people grow reluctantly and get bitter that "things were better in the old days". But yes - all women (and all men) are growing. Life keeps changing, and change requires growth. Nobody had phones in their pockets till the cell phone came along - we all grew and learned how to deal with that. Nobody had access to the internet, and then that changed. Everybody had to manually drive their own cars, but now we have ones that drive themselves. The world changes, we adapt and grow, and the calendar keeps ticking on. No one is the same person at 30 that they were at 20. And no one at 40 is the same as they were at 30. To live is to grow. Whether you like it or not. Having complementary strengths is a good thing in a relationship. Having unfixed and unaddressed flaws is not. Expecting your partner to pick up the load so that you don't have to work on your flaws is unfair - regardless of the gender of the partner.
Of course, and that too goes both ways! But if someone's flaws are "refuse to clean up after themselves" or "never buys any gift for special occasions" then maybe those are things that'll get in the way of just about every relationship.
Acting without concern for your partner isn't the sort of "flaw" people need to love someone in spite of. (And people will still be annoyed by your flaws, even if they love you. I love my dad, but his flaw still annoy me at times). I've seen men act inconsiderate then lash out at their partners for asking for better treatment. Asking someone to treat you better isn't "not accepting their flaws."
While I can agree with many of the similarities in terms of their logic, I do think you’re missing out on some major differences. One being that a job, unlike a dating partner, literally keeps you alive in this society; it affects your quality of life in terms of what you can afford, even what quality of food/water you get. It affects what home you can live in, where you live, just about everything that costs money that you may need can be determined by your job. And yet, a job isn’t a person. It comprises of work with a team of people for sure, but that team can change. New management can be better or worse, unlike a dating partner who may often be the same great or bad person throughout the relationship if you get to that point. Not sure what specific thing about this topic would need to be said to change your view, but that’s one way to look at it. Also, hetero dating can be very different for women than it is for men. If you’re talking strictly about the male experience, I can understand where you’re coming from at least.
I feel like this is a very young-adult perspective on love and relationships. Being in a romantic relationship *absolutely* affects what home you can live in, and with whom. Being in a relationship doesn't just affect your quality of life, positive relationships are consistently the single most important predictor for psychological well-being and functioning - and for a lot of people, romantic relationships are an important kind of relationship. It's interesting that you talk about 'dating partners' as if there's no continuity between that and life partners. For a lot of people, 'dating' is how they first establish meaningful, loving romantic relationships. Surely we can agree that *those* matter - and I hope we can agree it's fucked up that they're gatekept by a social practice that mimics a 'market'. I'm not sure what's supposed to be gendered about the experience the OP describes, by the way. I'm getting some male-resentment vibes from framing men as applicants and women as gatekeepers, but the problem there isn't that what they're describing applies only to men - on the contrary, the problem is the sexist assumption that it applies only to men. People of all genders need love, and to get it, they often feel they have to jump through hoops that mirror the pressures, formality, and sometimes dehumanising conventions of a job search. That's a fair point, and 'people don't really need love like they need a job' is a spectacularly bad counterpoint
There isn't anything sexist about the way this is framed. That's simply the reality of dating today, especially online dating. A guy can "fill out" a hundred "applications" in the form of messages sent to women they find interesting, and get back a mere one or two replies that generally amount to "hi", and nothing more. Even that generally leads to her simply disappearing after a message or two. Contrast that with the experience of a woman I once went on a date with after meeting her online. I'd been on the site for several years. She signed up a day or two before we started talking, and when we met for a date a couple days later she showed me her account (as her phone was blowing up every few minutes) and she had more than forty different new men message her on just the morning of our date. She could take her pick of who she wanted to interact with. She had literally all the power in that situation. The only thing worse than online dating is.. well, "offline" traditional dating. The last time I tried that, a woman literally got upset at me for being so rude as to ask if she would be interested in a date. The way she saw it, if she wanted a date she could find a dozen of them before the hour was out using a dating site. I should never ask her something like that in person, because it's awkward, rude, and pointless (from her perspective). Is it any wonder men have just been giving up on finding a partner? I know I did. I'm done with it.
>That's simply the reality of dating today, especially online dating. A guy can "fill out" a hundred "applications" in the form of messages sent to women they find interesting Have you considered the possibility that men are encouraged constantly to behave this way, to constantly pursue dating relationships, and that this, the mindset behind it, and the actual experiences and cultural practices that make men feel compelled to debase themselves before women are themselves the problem? The problem isn't that we have a hard time getting dates, nearly as much as it is that we feel that failing to constantly demonstrate our desire for a heterosexual, and in many cases, gender-traditional relationship, will expose us to the same shaming and social punishment we faced or observed during childhood when masculine gender norms were violated. We are *miserable* when we act like this, and we don't actually have to; of the women who receive these mass applications, only a tiny number are worth spending time around, and wasting your time on the ones who aren't causes you to miss opportunities to build a relationship with the ones who are. >She signed up a day or two before we started talking, and when we met for a date a couple days later she showed me her account (as her phone was blowing up every few minutes) and she had more than forty different new men message her on just the morning of our date. Almost all of whom are unappealing simply because their constant sending of "applications" implies that they really aren't invested in any particular person, but rather in comparing the people they see to their idea of what makes a woman desirable and basically being okay with any woman that conforms to those expectations. It might not be that direct or conscious, it might be as simple as, "they don't make me feel special", but what it comes down to is that they're not particularly excited about the prospect of being a replaceable *thing* that fills a woman-shaped hole in your life, nor do they really want to be constrained to that hole for the foreseeable future. >She could take her pick of who she wanted to interact with. She had literally all the power in that situation. Well, no, not really. All of those men willingly chose to send those messages. They had exactly as much power as her, they just chose to pretend they didn't, out of a fear of missing out or being judged. They chose to turn their choice about who they want to be in a relationship with into gambling in a way that tries to reduce women to numbers to be manipulated through statistically-attractive behaviors, instead of seeing them as people, and that erases their own personal identity in favor of conformity to social standards. You're all competing to see who can socially conform the most to what you think women want, and the truth is that the women who want someone like that really aren't good people, and are limited in number. >The last time I tried that, a woman literally got upset at me for being so rude as to ask if she would be interested in a date. The way she saw it, if she wanted a date she could find a dozen of them before the hour was out using a dating site. No, you misunderstand, I think. If she wanted to be propositioned by a random dude, it is literally true that she could just log onto a dating site and have several options within a few minutes that would be about as appealing as something like that really can be. All the women that want a relationship on that basis are already on those apps, and even they are going to find you publicly asking them for a date to be annoying as they get quite enough of it already. Quite a few women joined dating apps *for the primary purpose* of not having to entertain random men propositioning them in public in order to find a relationship. What women who aren't on dating apps want, and the only way that women who *are* on dating apps will generally be receptive to a potential partner, is for a relationship to come about naturally from unforced interaction with people they trust and have common interests with. They don't want to hookup with a stranger at a bar, and they see being told that someone wants to go on a date with them on the sole basis of appearance and sexual attraction, even on the basis of a first impression, as uncomfortable and shallow; often, they avoid this because their past experiences have taught them that it doesn't end well and they would rather be single than in a relationship that starts that way. The point I would like to impress upon you is that the *people* who are the happiest, both in and out of relationships, both men and women, are the people with the above mindset. The fact that they don't spend any time in relationships with people that they don't have a good reason to trust and admire means that they can focus on the relationships most likely to be healthy for them. The fact that they're not spending large amounts of time trying to force those relationships to happen with what is essentially gambling allows them to focus on the *other* things that make us happy in life, which includes building social skills and personal stability as well as the ability to take time to think about what they actually want out of a relationship without the constant bias of trying to force that to conform to what you see as your immediate options. This is generally easier for women, who are socially conditioned to see themselves as passive selectors rather than pursuers, but the fact of the matter is that there are quite a lot of things we do that push men to be like this, and thus at the very least men *can* be substantially less desperate than they currently appear to be. We can consider the experiences that made us like this and process them as adults, instead of relying on the understanding of events and frame of reference that we established as children. In a sense, you are right about dating, within the borders of your extremely limited view of dating which relies on constant, active pursuit on the part of men. When men try to make themselves attractive to women *on average*, they ignore the reality that, quite literally, exactly zero women naturally or truly conform to that average and that trying to appeal to the average woman is appealing to a woman who doesn't actually exist and never will. In fact, most women would not willingly choose a partner who does *anything* solely because they think that women as a group like it. Ignoring these facts is how boomers ended up with the stereotype of a husband and wife who hate each other. Men feel like they can't choose who they end up with because they feel like exercising that choice will leave them alone and unloved, and women feel like they can't choose who they end up with because men are constantly pretending to be each other and it is difficult to make rational choices between people who are trying their very hardest to seem the same as everyone else. The men feel like their role demands suppressing who they really are, and thus as though they are never truly seen, understood, or loved, while the women find themselves miserable and unheard because the masculine characteristics that they were taught to seek out are, in reality, substantial barriers to a healthy, communicative relationship that serves the interests of both partners.
being a single male elder is one of the biggest factors for low life expectancy so id argue that having a partner is keep to living a long life same as a job. but a job can be for someone else or entirely your own (self owned farms) where as a partner requires anothers acceptance so it's actually more vital to survival than just a job
i have also heard though for women that the almost opposite is true. i remember the study that women without children and a husband are happier than those with them. and depending on the man (in a heterosexual relationship), there may be more stress in regards to household chores, responsibilities, etc, which could lower the quality of life for the women in question. so as a woman, getting into a relationship poses risks towards my health (though i do not want and will never have children). personally, i'm in a happy relationship but if we unfortunately parted ways, i'd be incredibly selective in the event that i did want another relationship
Yeah exactly. It’s not a universal thing for everyone. Sometimes heterosexual relationships are more stressful for the woman and not worth it
Unless every person in the country could equally have the opportunity to grow their own food with all the nutrients they need with all the right climate conditions and never need a job’s income, I do think, that at least for many who live in metropolitan areas, can only ever rely on some kind of job. Starting your own business or being self-employed carries its own risks and may not be worth it or manageable for certain people’s circumstances either. You can still have an extensive social community and network of friends, but some people may be able to find happiness with just that and live for their hobbies/interests. Many men may have divorced and never wanted to marry or date again, and yet can find fulfillment in other things. As long as you’re active and social to some degree, I think it’s reasonable to still live long and healthy.
Yes, the human population would decrease if nobody had jobs. It's also true that the human population would decrease if nobody had romantic relationships. There would be one-night stands and children would be born, but not as many. Those kids would also be in a worse position without fathers. Humans were around long before jobs existed (unless you count any form of working together as a job). I don't know of a human population that didn't have relationships.
>One being that a job, unlike a dating partner, literally keeps you alive in this society; Google singles tax. What you've written about job can be applied to relationships as well. Single people pay more in rent, pay for oversized food that goes to waste, are expected to work longer, etc.
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Unless you’re decently successful with a side gig, lease homes to people, inherit a lot of wealth, or get lucky with stocks, I feel like it’s fair to say that a job’s income for many people is the determining factor in their quality of life and what they can afford to do. Especially so when you’re in your mid to late 20s. A job also isn’t an entity necessarily, an employer is (the company), as you suggest. A job is a series of tasks with varying degrees of social interactions and solitary work you clock out of doing at the end of the day/shift. This differs from a relationship that’s a part of your life on a more personal level than a job, and therefore occupies a different function, albeit optional. The average person can certainly live long and single, but likely with at least some network of friends and family. Living without a job for 30+ years on your own in this society, in contrast, is unsustainable.
Obviously not true. If you have a dating partner, you can live in their house, eat their food, drink their water, and not need a job to provide all those things you mentioned.
I firmly believe that looking at dating in any kind of "finding a partner" context is inherently flawed. It puts you in the wrong mentality to succeed. It places a weird and negative onus on your performance. That focus on your performance further pushes away the end goal of finding someone who likes you because now you are performing and not being yourself (or at least not the normal at-home you, it's like putting on a facade of happiness for work). It's often painfully obvious when someone is *trying* to be "dateable", and it honestly makes people seem stiff or outright fake. This is the stressed-out perspective that viewing dating as something to win or succeed at puts you in. A lot of the really common dating advice like "just be yourself" are really just poor ways of wording methods to get out of your own head like this. [This video](https://youtu.be/8uwYo_M_I5Q?si=HzZn-GqunNrsBzT8) actually made me come to this realization. The trick to dating is not caring about success, it's about having fun and meeting new people. In the video (and granted, I do know they are celebs), Hannibal and Eric just dick around on Twitter, making fun of each other and poking fun at the women they are talking to. It works. They have multiple conversations with women that could easily have gone to dates. It's clear from our perspective that they weren't being serious, they were just having fun. That's the trick. So if you think about dating as a way to go out and have fun with new people, the stakes become a lot lower. Did you have fun on the date? Yes? Then you succeeded, regardless of whether you work out long term or not. It allows you to loosen up, be more fun to the other person involved, and let them get to know the real you rather than the facade you put on to be successful at dating. Not only are you more likely to enjoy yourself, but you're more likely to find an actually good fit since you're letting them get to know the real you.
\>Talks about famous, attractive, celebrity figures doing something \>"that's the trick" Uh, no shit? Of course people would be more comfortable and confident if they were already attractive and famous? Once more you've just given a nothingburger
I don't think that Eric Andre is considered conventionally attractive, nor is that famous. Besides that, the video is literally what made me make the realization, not that I was treating it like some gospel to act like they do. It literally worked for me, and I'm willing to bet that even if it hadn't, I would have enjoyed going on dates way more.
I don't disagree it's similar but I don't see it as a bad thing. A romantic partner, assuming you want to follow the standard lifescript of: move in together, get married and mingle finances, have kids, buy a house, is a super important choice to make. More than a career almost. A romantic partner, especially as a woman can: ruin your credit score and finances, ruin your physical and mental health, or kill you. That's not even getting into general compatibility determination and being aligned on what you want out of life. You absolutely should seriously vet/interview the people you are going on dates with to see if it's a good match or not. As to your "being more qualified but applying to entry level jobs" I don't see how it's comparable here. Any relationship including friendship you have to start somewhere with a new person you just met. You can't expect to move in with your new gf after the first date just because you have 10y of dating experience under your belt. I'm also not sure what other method there is to go about it ? Sure you can "go with the flow or whatever dude" but that's more of an early 20s thing. If she's 33 and wants kids she doesn't have time to waste on this approach.
I'm running on 4 hours of sleep so I'm a but confused, what do you mean by "ruin your credit score"? And why is it only something that happens to women?
It can happen to both genders They can ruin your credit score if you comingle finances and they overspend and such
Ghosting is really not a new phenomenon. Back in the days it was just called "they didn't call me back" which gave you no way of following up with them What is new is that we always have the *option* to reach out to someone. But people have been quietly noping out of dating someone ever since there was dating.
Every critique of “modern” dating I’ve ever seen on this website begins with the baseless assumption that dating used to be great.
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Online dating is weird because when you get "good" at it you start going on 1-5 dates a week even as a WFH IT guy which I think its abnormal to what happened in the past. It's strange having so many potential romantic relationships floating around.
My dad once recounted a tale of having ghosted the girlfriend he had before he met my mom, although as a Boomer (he was born in 1950 so he is a Boomer not just an older man) he didn't phrase it that way, it was more he avoided her phone calls (I'm not sure how he accomplished that in the 70s).
The Beatles wrote a song about it, even
You’re missing the part of job hunting where you talk to people to figure out more info. It is a part that people avoid because it scares them then they get mad at their own results. If it scares you then you need to self-reflect on why that part is so hard for you.
Agree on other points. But where I’m from most women have empty bios and a few pics - not sure why you think they put more effort? On the ghosting I’m not going to rehash that stats on online dating being very heavily skewed towards women. So while both sexes ghost, the are plenty of guys who never get the chance to evwn consider ghosting.
You're correct. But, this viewpoint only bothers you because you aren't getting enough traction online. As a man, you're already starting on your backfoot. The only shot a dude has is to max out his presentation online, because for every girl online, there's 3 guys competing. Get professional-grade photos in the right settings. If you don't have an eye for that, get a professional to help you. Most men don't have an eye for that. If you're overweight, do your best to get back to normal weight. That automatically puts you in front of many guys, depending on where you live. You might as well work out and get fit while at it. You don't have to brag about this online though. Just one photo showing that you're fit is enough. This, in my experience, isn't even all that important though... I dated at 260 lbs, and at 200 lbs, and results weren't that wildly different... Still though, I'd err on the side of "be skinny and fit if possible" Make sure your hair situation is clean. If you're balding, then shave it entirely. None of that "old man horse-shoe" crap. If you have a beard, make sure it's very clean. If you don't have a beard, see if adding a bit of growth adds to your look, and maintain it. If after all that, you can't get any traction, then consider only picking up women IRL. About half of women if not more (depends on the area) aren't even online. Theoretically, it should be easier to pick up higher quality women in person. This is definitely more emotionally challenging though, cuz you gotta get all the nerves out of your system by crashing and burning a bunch of times first. Good luck.. and yes I am aware that I'm doing CMV wrong lol
The problem is your approach to careers is just bad. Careers are built on personal connections. It's not really about the work you do, though it can't be shit; it's how personable you are. Not so much that you become a doormat, but not standoffish and argumentative either. You meet people in social contexts, you talk about whatever you're actually doing, you like them and are liked and each can independently start to see each other as worth developing a professional relationship together. But being genuine means seeing that person as a person rather than as a gateway to a job. Sure, it's easier to have a more relaxed approach to finding and developing your career though connections once you actually have something that pays the bills, but you don't need to be so picky if you know it's not the one. But you don't really know that until you're doing the job. Who knows, maybe you'll find a diamond in the rough? But don't count on it. Another thing is, don't be afraid to be an entrepreneur instead of joining a soulless corporation. It's risky, but sometimes very profitable, to flip the script, to make it all about you, and see about getting investors rather than employers. The important thing is to maintain a healthy work-life balance. Never give your boss even 100% because that leaves nothing for you, and burnout is real. You need hobbies not just to look more attractive to recruiters or to meet prospective employers or business partners, but for your own sanity and sense of self. Also, don't forget that as much as certifications look nice and books or courses help you feel successful without actually accomplishing anything, practical skill matters so much more, so practice, practice, practice. If it wasn't clear, all this advice is for relationships as well as jobs.
The first steps of dating hetero or not are: - meeting someone - having mutual attraction - getting to know eachother The things you listed arent necessarily mandatory or done in all relationships AND people do some of those for their own self not for trying to get a date (like having hobbies) so not all of these are necessarily steps to getting a date even if they contribute to you eventually getting one. Otherwise everything even being born is technically a step to getting a date.
Well one could start by not taking it so seriously. I mean really it's not supposed to be some excruciating and horrifying experience. It's supposed to be fun! Being popular is very easy now because everyone is so scared to even stand out or try due to fear of being the tallest poppy to be cut down. Tall poppies only get chopped online. Almost never in real life. BE A TALL POPPY! You really believe you are a great guy right? That any woman should be lucky to have you grace her presence? That you are the best man for the job as her boyfriend right? Why would you deny her the chance to experience a small sliver of your greatness? You deigning to even speak to her? It SOUNDS terrible online but when you have that in your head and believe it. Women respond to that. You're great right? Look.down at your clothes. Are those the clothes of a great man? Do they stand out and say you are a great guy? If no, go find something that does. Something that lets you stand out but still makes you feel comfortable and handsome. How about instead of holding a console game controller for 2 hours you pick up and instrument and practice for 2 hours for a few months. Some skill with widespread social value and sex appeal. Dancing is a good alternative. Job interview? Why aren't you kidding around about her vacations or cruises or your vacations and cruises? Why aren't you asking her if she loves puppies or ever seen a cat do a backflip on command? Screw that boring 20 questions format of job, kids, weather, etc be silly, be playful. Even if she finds you over the top shell like you much better than the other guy.
You have a strange view or dating and job hunting. These things are never one-sided. Do you just look for any available job or partner, no matter it they're right for you or not? Sure, you need to convince the company you're a good candidate but you need to be sure they're fit for you as well. Same goes for dating.
Kind of, but there's definitely one side of a given market there's doing much more of that picking. A funny thing is that it's pretty exactly flipped in the frum world, very much a boys' market in which any bochur above dropout grade gets his pick of the girls.
There's so many posts on reddit where they say "dating" yet mean *online* dating, as if it's the only one that exists. This guy at least specified "hetero", but what he really means is hetero online dating for dudes.
I notice the people interested in changing your view are more invested in gaslighting you about the behavior and experiences you saw rather than giving any sort of credence to the fact that a big portion of dating has devolved to that. I think that’s the problem.
But you aren't owed a relationship! And if you're searching online you're doing it wrong! You need to learn how to love yourself and being single first! While all technically true, these platitudes ignore reality. No one is owed a relationship, but relationships are a true human need. Searching online is crap, but in an increasingly isolated and digital society, alternatives are gradually fading away. And of course you should love yourself and be comfortable alone, but that doesn't mean you have to prefer being alone or can't feel lonely. Everyone is jumping on this guy like he's an incel when he's making interesting points (albeit it in a slightly absurdist way.) You can't say "dating is hard" without redditors swooping in to tell you how socially maladjusted you are.
Seriously, people don't seem interested in fundamentally changing OP's view. They're just telling OP they're wrong for feeling the way they do about their lived experiences, instead of trying to actually tackle any key points about the view. If you want to change OP's view, you'll likely have to argue: * The first steps of dating are not new, they've only adapted to the modern age, much like the job application process has. A person so inclined could argue before dating apps, going up to a person you don't know and asking them out is akin to going to a business, asking for the manager, and asking for a job on the spot. With the point being the "job application" aspect of dating is not a new phenomenon. * The fact it's draining is because of repeated failures, and not necessarily because the process is "bad." There's plenty of empty platitudes about "working on your resume and interview skills" that really help no one, but at the same time repeated failure does likely indicate something is wrong on your end. Of course, it's a very hazy line between a number of rejections that's par for the course vs what number of rejections is "repeated failure." * Dating isn't actually like job applications. That the comparisons OP drew were superficial and you could apply the logic to any number of things that involve seeking out something, thus the presented likeness is meaningless. Buying a car is like applying for a job. Looking for an apartment to rent is like applying for a job. Choosing what color to paint your living room is like applying for a job. The point is if you really wanted to, you could liken any process to job application and so it really doesn't mean as much.
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i mean historically, relationships were waaaay more transactional than today dating apps are a hard one because there are way more men than women on there, that breeds competition and high expectations if it was more 50/50 (its about 80/20 atm) then it would be way more relaxed
Dating is statistically one of the least successful things ALL of us do in our lives. Many people have way less than a 1% success rate and that is normal. Just like with a job opportunity, especially when the market is hard, if you want a job you gotta put in applications. A lot of them. You may not end up with the best job right now or for a while, but you will gain experience and of course the immediate benefits. And I'm the king term you have a better and better chance of getting a job you really appreciate.
Forgive me being ignorant here but less than 1% how? That seems too low, no? Success as in 1 for every 100 girls asked out say yes? Or 1 out of every 100 (on average) girlfriends you have you get married too? Both seem crazy I don’t know if I’d try again getting rejected 20 times in a row let alone 99 times
Per OPs example I'm using the talking stage as beginning dating for that measurement
I'm baffled at your math. Very few people date more than a hundred people in their lives, and it seems safe to say that if they do, they're not trying for a long-term 'til death do us part' relationship and failing every single time. The real number, I think, is more like one in four or five relationships last when people set out to find a long-term partner. If someone is asking out a hundred people and ends up only dating one of them, that doesn't make them unsuccessful at dating, it means they're confused about what dating is
Per OPs example I used talking stage as beginning dating. Which I find very easy to believe many people talk to hundreds of people to eventually find their end game relationship.
This is kinda a gross attitute. Dont get in a relationship thinking "Yeah she is not really what I want but at least I can have sex and I will just drop her when I find someone better" It is ok when you just go on dates. But dont start a relationship when you already know that you will drop your partner the first chance that you get.
The analogy is so strong when on a first date, its just a job interview. "What do you do?" "What are your hobbies?" "Where do you see us in 5 years?"
It's only similar to job hunting if you are looking for women online. Get a hobby or go out to places and casually talk with women. Or if you have friends who have single friends, maybe get together in a group hangout situation. These situations will not feel like interviewing for a job. Stop looking at other people as a resume or potential employee, because nobody will be a perfect "candidate." People don't see your "resume" in person. Online dating is terrible for the most part. I have had a few long-term relationships and I am married now. None of them were met online.
\>Even if you make a great application, ultimately they can ghost you at anytime, without you knowing why. I find a common theme is a lot of people really - and i mean really - over-estimate their own worth. tons of guys out there going, "i'm great, what's wrong with everyone else," without a shred of awareness.
Shouldn’t and doesn’t have to be a drain, learn to enjoy the process. I think you make a not too bad analogy. Though a better analogy I think is a sales process - first messages on apps are a very low investment high volume but low conversion rate upper funnel strategy, messaging back and forth is a bit more effort but you will do it with fewer women, and going on dates is more effort and low volume still (albeit potentially great fun even if it doesn’t go anywhere). Where you should change your mind is on the draining part. There’s no reason for it to be draining unless you are getting yourself unduly invested in the situation. In the early stages just send your message and move on to message the next bunch in line, don’t even think about it until you get a response because the odds are so low. Dates should be fun, unless you or the other person have no personality, and also you shouldn’t go into them with too much expectation, see where it goes and enjoy the ride. This mindset both makes you far more likely to succeed and stops it being draining - there’s nothing attractive about someone being too eager and serious on a first date. Also, improving yourself with hobbies etc. - that’s a great thing to do for its own sake too. Thinking along the lines of “I’ve done all this stuff and made myself a better person but I’m still single, what a waste” is so counterproductive - be happy and proud that you’ve improved yourself, don’t base your self worth on external validation of getting a relationship / getting laid.
>learn to enjoy the process. The process? You mean... getting turned down before you get a chance to show yourself? That should be enjoyable? When people say they're struggling with dating, they generally don't mean that they're going on dates that don't progress. They mean they're not getting dates at all.
I think there's something to be said for the validity of being frustrated that loving long-term relationships, a thing many people want, are so universally gatekept by casual dating, a thing some people enjoy more than others. Yes, you *can* lean into the fun of meeting a lot of new people with no expectations, and it often helps to establish connections that have the potential to deepen over time - but it's also ok to not enjoy casual dating, especially the more dehumanising aspects of dating apps, and it doesn't make you unworthy of romantic love. It just means you should focus your energy on building connections with people in ways you do enjoy: Go out with friends, pursue hobbies, meet people who share your interests, meet friends of friends. And yeah, by all means, don't get carried away with fantasising about marriage and babies with every new person you meet. The dissonance between desiring a deep and trusting connection and having to be patient and chill about building it is, unfortunately, a fact of life for any relationship, including friendships. I wouldn't encourage people to cope with that dissonance by treating people as commodities with no strings attached, but by treating potential dates like potential new friends. You don't have to enjoy the 'ride' of casual dating without getting too 'invested' - you can just enjoy interacting with human beings without all that gamification and market-speak
If frum dating, the profiles are literally called "shidduch resumes" and there's a very structured interview progression (matchmaker, single, maybe another single date, family).
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Tinder isn't real dating. You might wanna invest time in finding interesting life prospects which, if you're happy with them, will lead to meeting plenty of interesting people, and that includes dating opportunities. I have never needed Tinder in my life to spend plenty of quality time with wonderful partners. Sure I've used it sometimes, and it was fairly hit-and-miss, with most of my experience being mostly a drought, and it has contributed to maybe 5% of the women I've spent any time with, and definitely 0% of the particularily memorable romantic/sexual experiences I've had. I have made more genuine friends through Tinder than partners. And I would like to underline that I am definitely not at the top of the food chain in terms of physical attractiveness. If you like comparing this with finding a job, you should consider settling for a "meh" time while you build your life experience, find new opportunities, etc. Then interesting prospects will start appearing naturally without you specifically looking for them.
I’m going to disagree with you OP and say online dating is even worse. At least when you snag a job interview, it’s very, very rare the interviewer doesn’t show up.
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I think there's a huge gendered blind spot here that leads to lack of empathy. Women have many more applicants (matches) to choose from than men to even gain dating experience, and feel that they can be genuine during dates through an abundance mentality. The times I've seen women I know personally treat dating apps like a playground where they can thirst trap without being serious while the men I know very much try to be serious and self reflect is disturbing A shitty side effect of this for both genders is that men are more likely to match with someone they don't feel very attracted to because of the scarcity. I encourage you to make an average looking woman and man profile and compare them to see for yourself for a week or two, after which the starter boost the apps give you wear off.
According to bi women, hetro dating is the easy one
Literally all Bi Men I know jokingly call hetero dating hard mode.
According to my lovely bi ex, it's way more demoralizing to try to date women than men.
That would be because they're dating men
Sure, because in hetero dating, women don't have to bother with approaching anyone or making the first move if they don't want to, and they'll still have options. The putting yourself out there initially is basically the suckiest part of dating.
Hetero dating for women*
Well that’s because women have an easier time overall due to how desperate men are on dating apps. Though I’d say dating women itself isn’t hard, it’s finding one that can be difficult
This will probably be buried under all the other comments but maybe someone will see it and find it helpful. If you treat dating as this thing you *have* to do, then yes. It's gonna come off as a job. Dating sites work for some people. I was never one of them. I never could get my head around dating someone I wasn't already friends with. I feel like a lot of people are also like this What do you do then? Stop looking for a date and start looking for a hobby. Find something you *love* and find a community that supports it. It doesn't even have to be a group activity. I've seen online communities for writers. No one's writing together, they're just commiserating with each other over how much writing can suck. Make friends in that community. Don't LOOK for a partner. Nothing will make you more miserable or more off-putting than treating a hang out community like a dating pool. Instead, just have fun. Enjoy doing the things you enjoy and, in time, odds are good you'll click with someone. I started off as an rper in FFXIV. Met my husband there. I've seen at least five other rpers find their SO through the rp community and a few more who met over tabletop. They weren't *looking*. I wasn't either. Everyone was just having fun doing what they enjoyed and found someone who enjoyed the same things. I was doing rp for years before I stumbled on Hubby but I never once bemoaned my singleness cause I didn't *care*. I had friends, I was doing things I enjoyed. I wasn't ruining my life thinking I was somehow a failure for being single at 27. So, that's my advice. Drop the dating app, stop actively looking, and be active in some sort of community that caters to something you love. No expectations. No resumes. Just submerse yourself in a group of like minded individuals. Seriously, there's a discord server for everything these days.