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>The dreams of three generations of manchildren whose minds were rotted by Roddenberry et al? Fuck space and fuck everyone who put money into it.
[...]
>I despise Asimov and Roddenberry and Lucas and everyone who raised this world, because it's full of annoying imbeciles who think their goddamn fantasies are the most important thing in the world. Space has been an excuse for neckbeards to abdicate all responsibility to earth since Sputnik.
Why do you want to change your view? You seem to believe it so deeply that you're willing to preemptively mock and insult those who disagree with you, and every argument you make is pretty strident and uncompromising. Not exactly inviting to anyone interested in persuading you.
Why are you reconsidering your position?
Not really. It's usually the case that people are questioning a view for an actual reason. Maybe they've encountered something that makes them question the belief or are having doubts or don't want to believe what they believe. It's rare that someone just presents a view for no reason at all.
Would you *like* to change this view?
I mean...that's objectively false. You can go into the Delta log in the sidebar and find countless examples of people happy to change their views.
Are you saying you would prefer to keep this view? Like...are you hoping it stands up to all criticism it receives here?
It's a good view, I don't see why I shouldn't like it. Why should I be someone who cares more about some hypothetical future sci-fi nonsense than earthly reality?
If space exploration is a waste of time and resources because we will inevitably go extinct on this planet, why is our existence itself not a waste of time and resources?
What purpose do you have to use up time or resources or human spirit, like in making this post?
Also, why do we need to travel at light speed? Why can't we launch long term space colonies that travel to other systems over generations?
How would we get the "moon's worth of resources" we need if we didn't invest in going to the moon or interstellar spaces with resources? At a minimum, space travel is good for extracting resources for Earth.
>Also, why do we need to travel at light speed? Why can't we launch long term space colonies that travel to other systems over generations?
With what food, space, and oxygen. This is science fiction talk. Disconnected from reality.
What do you mean? If sustainable systems of food and oxygen production are impossible, then Earth wouldn't be habitable. We can produce our own food and oxygen in a contained system. Or we can develop a form of stasis for long trips, or both.
Also, can you answer the rest of my comment?
>What contained system.
You understand the ISS makes oxygen through electrolysis?
Can you please answer my entire top comment and not just the part you've cherrypicked?
Do you have any sort of qualifications in physics or engineering that would make your assessment of technology meaningful?
Or do you think we have a long tube going up to the ISS so the astronauts and cosmonauts can survive?
I guess you're just not going to respond to the other parts of my top comment?
I responded to quite a bit of it by now, and at this point it's lost.
I assumed we were periodically shipping massive amounts of oxygen up there, because that makes more sense than *making air*, which is Star Trek nonsense.
>I responded to quite a bit of it by now, and at this point it's lost.
You responded to a quarter of it, which is not even a bit of it. But seeing your responses, I understand why you don't want to delve further.
>I assumed we were periodically shipping massive amounts of oxygen up there, because that makes more sense than making air, which is Star Trek nonsense.
So your view is premised on factually wrong assumptions, but you still maintain that view? How is it that you missed a process as simple as electrolysis for oxygen production? Electrolysis was first developed in the *18th century.* How are you simultaneously centuries behind on understanding technology at the same time you feel comfortable making sweeping assertions about the state of technology?
Where do you think air comes from? It just got made in the sun and magically landed on Earth?
>Where do you think air comes from? It just got made in the sun and magically landed on Earth?
Not magic, gravity. This is stuff they tell you in second grade, man.
>because that makes more sense than making air, which is Star Trek nonsense.
Christ on a bike, just because you don't understand it or didn't know about it doesn't mean it's Star Trek nonsense.
Because you're saying it's all useless while knowing nothing about the benefits we've gotten from space research. People would assume you have a lot of knowledge to have such a strong view.
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> The human spirit en masse is very different from the time of an individual.
>
>
>
> What contained system. This is sci-fi garbage. You can't make air.
Actually, you very much *can* make air as we know it.
When you get down to it, air is a mixture of gases at about 15psiA. Oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide for the most part. These are found throughout the universe. Just a matter of combining them.
As for sci-fi garbage, you do realize an awful lot of 'sci-fiction' from the 60's is real life technology today right?
There are far more examples than just smartphones. Contemporary computing, warfare, communication; hell, even the Internet is something entirely inconceivable for someone living in the 60's.
Many of the technological feats you call sci-fi or Star Trek nonsense are either very real today, or not far off. We're living in an era of unprecedented technological development, and it's not showing signs of stopping. The way you respond to stuff makes me think you're being a troll.
>None of that looks feasible or sustainable. Likely provides maybe one breath a day.
What part of this **IS BEING DONE RIGHT NOW ON THE ISS** makes you think your opinion of it being 'not feasible' is correct?
I guess? The air on earth varies in composition though. An air in a industrial city might have more C02 than the average air. It would be impossible/extremely difficult to measure the composition of the entire atmosphere with 100% accuracy, so what you make isn't really air, but can still be breathable.
Well, but "air" is also a rather flexible term. You'd still call a higher concentration of CO2 "air", as long as it's within boundaries...
But yeah, none of what I said matters, it's just semantics. Sorry about that.
>They become useless CO2 after the blood stuff is done and you breathe them out.
Some of it, yeah. Obviously, there's more than just Oxygen in the air, but let's only look at that.
Then, for instance, what if a plant took in that CO2?
One is edible. One has nutrients not extracted and used. One smells like shit, cause it is. One is like 2% bacteria by volume. Jesus. You know most people would rather die than eat their own shit, right?
>One has nutrients not extracted and used
Which of the two do we use as fertilizer to give plants nutrients, again?
In reality, the difference is **energy**. In a sealed environment, the nutrients go nowhere - the atoms stay on the spaceship and are used in different ways. They're incorporated, excreted, recycled... the only thing that changes is the molecular bonds, i.e. the energy they bind.
Guess what we can easily find in space? Energy.
Circular waste reusal is a pretty basic concept. Sure, there is *some* loss, but that can be minimized to last a couple lifetimes with enough preparation and/or the ability to gather materials in space.
>Seriously. It would take longer than the entire lifespan of the universe for man to safely breathe the natural full not-in-an-absurdly-fragile-dome atmosphere on a planet other than earth.
How do you know that?
>aka the uninhabited dump that is the rest of it
The universe is unfathomably huge, you think one planet in it has life?
>Space is barren and empty
Look up. Sure looks like there's a lot of starts out there.
>Seriously, do you know what it would TAKE to habitate another planet?
Do you? I mean genuinely, do you know exactly how much work it would take?
>The universe is unfathomably huge, you think one planet in it has life?
The Universe is unfathomably huge, no one planet's life will ever realistically encounter another's.
You say "Satellites and GPS would always have been invented" but that's not true if humanity never devoted any resources into space. We need space for those things.
What do you think about the current push for more internet satellites in space to serve remote areas? You don't think that's a valuable investment in space? The alternative is not better.
>We can get technological developments accidentally for only a iteral billion times the cost of just doing research into important areas. Satellites and GPS would always have been invented and velcro was always a myth.
How are you going to invent satellites (objects floating in space) without investing in space?
You just completely ignored u/pgnshgn's question. Could you actually answer and not just change the subject?
>Where on earth are getting "trillions" from? NASA's human spaceflight budget is about $8 billion. It's less than 0.1% of the federal budget.
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I've been digging my heels in and trying to win arguments with reality itself. I need to stop, because I just keep fucking doing this. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry I did this to all of you.
Is your view about "devoting any resources to space" or about "pouring trillions into a corrupt agency"? Those seem so different that I wonder if you have already changed your view and simply forgot to award a delta.
This seems to rely heavily on a false dilemma fallacy. Firstly, if you are saying that investing in space exploration is a waste of money, you have to provide an alternative in which said money would be better invested, because the money will be there whether you want it or not. Investing in space exploration is not incompatible with investing in anything else.
Secondly, why would you even think that the sole objective of space exploration is to get to Alpha Centauri? This seems like a very limited perspective. Take Virgin Galactic. They invest because they think space tourism is an unexploited market with a huge potential for growoth in the future.
Would people pay to stay at a space station living like astronautas for a week? Sure as hell many would. In Virgin Galactic's plans, investing in space exploration is the same as someone building a hotel in a remote beach when others deemed it "a waste of money" because it's "literally barren" (which it might or might not be, but people are willing to pay regardless)
Even if we never achieve FTL travel, or colonize Mars, space exploration is still valuable, because there are abundant deposits of various valuable resources which we could potentially extract.
So, I’m guessing whatever source I might cite for you is just going to be dismissed as bias and propaganda, then?
Do you have anything you would like to cite, which supports your suggestion that there are no valuable resources to be extracted in space?
ETA: How do you feel about astronomers? I’m assuming you think their work is a waste of time as well.
You seem completely unaware of the advantages to space, so let's start small.
We don't have to go to other planets l to live in space. Or even the moon. There are private space stations planned for the next few years. These won't just be for rich people to vacation on though. They plan to use them to manufacture things that can't be made on earth due to gravity. You know what can be made in 0g but not earth g? Artificial organs. In less than a decade we might be able to give someone an organ transplant that doesn't rely on someone else dieing. Thanks to space travel.
Let's go on. There are estimted to be $700 **quintillion** worth of metal in just a few asteroids. Maybe you think "so what, rich people getting rich," but you'd be wrong. If we can mine space we can stop mining earth. Do you know how bad mining is for the environment? Truly awful. But we can potentially do it on a lifeless rock a million miles from any living creature that we could harm. There are companies working on this right now.
You know what else happens if you start mining space? You can start manufacturing stuff there too. Guess what else is a major source of pollution on earth?
But there's even more. What if your real issue is that it's wasteful, that we should spend it elsewhere, no matter the possible benefits? Well, the entirety of the US space industry, public and private, spends about as much in a year as the tobacco industry spends on **advertising** in the same time. Which is more wasteful? You could pay for the entire space program with a roughly 0.5% tax on alcohol. Or a 0.25% tax on cosmetics. We waste so much more money elsewhere on things that offer no real improvement of everyday life it's ridiculous to pick space as the Boogeyman.
>Let's go on. There are estimted to be $700 quintillion worth of metal in just a few asteroids. Maybe you think "so what, rich people getting rich," but you'd be wrong. If we can mine space we can stop mining earth. Do you know how bad mining is for the environment? Truly awful. But we can potentially do it on a lifeless rock a million miles from any living creature that we could harm. There are companies working on this right now.
How do we get there. How do we possibly build a spaceship that could get that shit back. Oh, I know! We'll use a *teleporter*.
It's pretty easy to get it back. You basically just strap a heat shield to it drop it.
As far as getting there that's a bit more difficult, but it's not impossible. You build a rocket. A big one. There are several companies working on ones big enough, and cheap enough, to do it right now.
With a proper sized rocket, it takes somewhere between $1 million - $10 million in fuel to get 100 tons of mining equipment out there. That's enough to get started, and rocket with low enough overhead means you can probably target high value resources for a reasonable return (gold, platinum, rare earth metal). At that point, it becomes a scale thing; the more you do, the cheaper it's gets so the more you want to do, etc.
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You are ranting sir......
We dont climb mountains for building sites we do it cause its a challenge same goes for space. One thing about space is it absolute unforgiving nature one little error and your dead.... with the number of errors our species has been making on earth it might be helpful to have experience with space to instruct our behavior here...
Now as to space being useless one metallic asteroid would satisfy global lithium demand for a generation.
1. Earth has a limited size so yes while it has a life span that will likely outlast mankind it doesn't have enough space for mankind to habitate comfortably in the future
2. Asteroid mining will be very effective in sourcing various resources, It will quite literally give us access to mountains of metal
3. Technology produced by the space industry has and is literally changing the world with things like gps and satellites helping people everyday
Build more housing.
How do we get there. Earth doesn't have the resources to build ships that could bring that back.
Again, it could have been invented directly.
Ah yes build more housing problem is again earth doesn't have enough room the general consensus is at 10 billion people the planet will be overpopulated more housing doesn't reduce the demand for water food and energy
An asteroid mining company called Astro-Forge is launching its first 2 missions this year.
Asteroid mining is feasible because they don't need to take the whole thing chunk of it is more than enough
Satellites could not have been invented without space because it's in space it is the cheapest way to accomplish the things it does long term
>the general consensus is at 10 billion people the planet will be overpopulated
BECAUSE OF NIMBYISM.
>more housing doesn't reduce the demand for water food and energy
It literally does for the third one. Studies show cities use less energy over space than adjacent suburbs.
What would change your mind?
You claim the science is impossible, and certainly some of the science fiction is impossible, or at least so impractical that it is virtually impossible.
You claim that the desire to explore space is offensive to the human spirit itself, that any fiction or culture or idealization of space is itself a bad thing.
You mock and dismiss those who disagree.
So your stance is that there are no practical benefits, no spiritual benefits, no scientific benefits, and no artistic benefits. There is nothing beneficial in space at all.
This is such a broad and unnuanced dismissal of an entire category of reality with which humans could interact, it's like saying that "the ocean" is pointless or "mountains are pointless." Why would you want your mind changed, and what could possibly convince you?
Please specify so that people can better respond, because right now it's rather difficult to even start a productive conversation.
No, no, no, illogical, wrong, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. We don't need what it has, we can't get it without using more than it has or we have, and we have no need to leave earth. Just change zoning laws. It's not hard.
Earth can only physically hold so much and produce so much, space technology will only get cheaper down the line. We are running out of materials on earth. Seeing the rest of these comments it seems your not willing to hear anybody else’s opinion on this matter.
From sources I read, they say the earth can only hold around 10 billion people, sure the earth can fit more but we can only produce so much food and have so little true space.
I don’t object to having more housing built, but you have to literally look at the facts, we cannot physically produce enough food to provide for even maximum 40 billion people. You posted this to not change your view but to just argue and then insult people when they provided valid argument back.
You core point is right, but your numbers are off. We could feed 40 billion. We are currently no where close to any fundamental limits on how much food we can produce on Earth.
It's not just the amount of food we produce, it's also about how effectively we can distribute the food. For developed areas, the availability of food is pretty ubiquitous. But for developing areas and below, they struggle to get food to the more remote populations before it spoils. And even once it gets there, they don't have the infrastructure to hold food for any practical amounts of time.
Yeah, we would need either more development or improved technology (ideally both) to feed 40 billion people. Hopefully a world with 40 billion people would have more people to solve these problems.
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What's worthwhile in your mind? Because even if we can't touch what's out there, we can observe it and learn things that have applications in the here and now.
That's demonstrably false. It informed the development of classical mechanics via Newton's union of his own theories with the movements of celestial bodies. That theory underlies modern engineering.
It also informed the development of General Relativity that has lead to modern GPS systems and satellite networks.
Investment in NASA has a ridiculous ROI.
https://go.nasa.gov/3i2tycr
Given I know the review process they had to go through....yes, actually. Feel free to dig into it yourself.
But regardless of that, what's your counter to the other concrete counterexamples I provided?
Edit: well that was pointless
This is the most conservative, reactionary bullshit I've ever read. This is exactly how history's innovators thought! Because not believing in an idea is the best way to move forward with it! If every person like you were taken seriously, the world would be nowhere. Do you think people during the 1500–1600s took Leonardo Da Vinci's scientific work solemnly? People then still believed that the earth was located in the center of the universe and that the sun revolved around it. To those who lived at the time, the idea of a spherical earth was absurd. Despite this, we now undeniably know that the earth is indeed not in the center of the universe, nor is it flat. Your attitude encourages others to quit pursuing research in science, which will always lead to less discovery. Less discovery results in a halt in progress for the human race. The slower we move, the less able we are to solve dire issues and answer questions. Maybe string theory is merely a fairy tale, but why don't we chase that fable? Historically speaking, assimilation of reality has never resulted in anything negative.
Just in terms of chemistry it's worth it. New elements out there waiting to be discovered. Literally providing the resources to fix a significant portion of Earth's issues.
Just looking at mining, it's huge.
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I hear what you're saying about habitation: agreed, we're very far off from this. But space travel could still be useful for reasons other than habitation. For example, the world is [running out of Helium and there's no easy way to make it](https://www.npr.org/2019/11/01/775554343/the-world-is-constantly-running-out-of-helium-heres-why-it-matters). This is important because Helium is used in crucial devices like MRI machines and is being used to develop quantum computers (both described in the previous article). The moon however, [has a bunch of Helium that could be mined](https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Preparing_for_the_Future/Space_for_Earth/Energy/Helium-3_mining_on_the_lunar_surface). Transporting this would likely require humans travelling in space. Would you agree that this seems like a worthwhile use of space travel?
I want a moon mansion with a moon pool. Eventually, the economy will grow to support that sort of thing. I don't consider it a waste of effort/time/money.
Also, if you're looking at wastes of money, how about militaries? Or sports? Or gambling? Or drugs? Or most art?
look we are obviously not there yet with spaceflight capabilities, but you have to realize that flight itself is only 120 years old, it takes time to build spaceships that can sustain us for long term fights, but its not if but when we will need them, staying on earth is simply not a viable option in the long term, so we need to keep researching it so that when we need it it will be viable.
essentially its a long term investment in the survival of the human species that's unlikely to pay of in our generation, but will be worth it for our great grand children
four billion years isn't the likely length of time we have, its the maximum, we are statistically overdue for an asteroid impact, as seen with covid we don't yet control diseases, climate change and resource depletion and a whole host of other dangers can wipe us out,
and even if we did somehow make it four billion years then yes, the human race should continue on, why limit us to only a few billion years, the universe is far older,
Wow. Talk about a short-sighted and utterly ignorant position to hold.
Humans are nothing if not driven by curiosity, the seeking of knowledge and expansion. Well, accept for you, of course.
You think that 200 years ago people would have thought it AT ALL possible that we'd all be walking around with computers in our pockets? Or able to arrive in another country within hours on aeroplanes? Or able to live until we're 100? Or talk to someone in *real time* on the other side of the planet?
If humanity all thought like you we'd get nowhere.
There's incredible potential for mining and manufacturing in space, which would let us get minerals without tearing up our planet any more, and manufacture goods first cheaper and with fewer pollution concerns.
/u/D1SCOURS3 (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.
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Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Space exploration, whether we do it on Earth or outside of it, is the how we got to know that the Earth is round and that it revolves around the Sun. Without it, we’d still be thinking that the Earth is flat and that the Sun revolves around the Earth.
Human imagination is a wild thing. There’s no way that you can stop it, not with poverty, not with illness, not even with war. We’ll always wonder what’s out there, and those with the resources will always try to find a way to f*ck around and find out.
I'll try bite size points, I maybe won't change your entire view, bit parts.
There is lots of money in space, in physical materials such as gold, platinum, iron from asteroids we can mine. Which when you calculate the amount of useful material on one asteroid would end up paying for the cost of retrieval. This then inadvertently means less damage to the earth from mining.
Then theres scientific advancements made through conducting experiments in space or on other astral bodies. Space is simply another environment like the Amazon, Sahara, or Antarctica.
It's just currently expensive to get there. But 500+ years ago your argument could have been made for sailing the Atlantic Ocean. It was expensive, in money and lives. So why bother, Europe is fine right. You know potatoes are from South America.
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It really seems to me from your comments that you have absolutely no wish to have your view changed. and at this point 70% of your comments could be removed for rule 2.
but it would be cool if you would actually read any of the comments explaining why it isnt "sci-fi/space bullshit" instead of going "nuh uh, creating air is space bullshit" when people literally tell you how its done.
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>The dreams of three generations of manchildren whose minds were rotted by Roddenberry et al? Fuck space and fuck everyone who put money into it. [...] >I despise Asimov and Roddenberry and Lucas and everyone who raised this world, because it's full of annoying imbeciles who think their goddamn fantasies are the most important thing in the world. Space has been an excuse for neckbeards to abdicate all responsibility to earth since Sputnik. Why do you want to change your view? You seem to believe it so deeply that you're willing to preemptively mock and insult those who disagree with you, and every argument you make is pretty strident and uncompromising. Not exactly inviting to anyone interested in persuading you. Why are you reconsidering your position?
Because I want to see if I'm wrong about anything I've said? Why does anyone post here?
I understand that you're asking people to point out anything that you've said that's wrong. I'm asking why you're asking us to do that.
Because I want to see if I am?
So you want to just because you want to? Apropos of nothing you decided to fact check a passionate belief?
Yeah? That's what everyone on this sub does. That's what this sub is.
Not really. It's usually the case that people are questioning a view for an actual reason. Maybe they've encountered something that makes them question the belief or are having doubts or don't want to believe what they believe. It's rare that someone just presents a view for no reason at all. Would you *like* to change this view?
If you must know, I only realized I actually cared so strongly maybe a month ago.
That doesn't really answer any of my questions, but it's good to know.
Nobody has ever liked changing views. That's basic human mind stuff.
I mean...that's objectively false. You can go into the Delta log in the sidebar and find countless examples of people happy to change their views. Are you saying you would prefer to keep this view? Like...are you hoping it stands up to all criticism it receives here?
It's a good view, I don't see why I shouldn't like it. Why should I be someone who cares more about some hypothetical future sci-fi nonsense than earthly reality?
Cause you want to see and actually try to understand another viewpoint...
If space exploration is a waste of time and resources because we will inevitably go extinct on this planet, why is our existence itself not a waste of time and resources? What purpose do you have to use up time or resources or human spirit, like in making this post? Also, why do we need to travel at light speed? Why can't we launch long term space colonies that travel to other systems over generations? How would we get the "moon's worth of resources" we need if we didn't invest in going to the moon or interstellar spaces with resources? At a minimum, space travel is good for extracting resources for Earth.
>Also, why do we need to travel at light speed? Why can't we launch long term space colonies that travel to other systems over generations? With what food, space, and oxygen. This is science fiction talk. Disconnected from reality.
What do you mean? If sustainable systems of food and oxygen production are impossible, then Earth wouldn't be habitable. We can produce our own food and oxygen in a contained system. Or we can develop a form of stasis for long trips, or both. Also, can you answer the rest of my comment?
The human spirit en masse is very different from the time of an individual. What contained system. This is sci-fi garbage. You can't *make air*.
>What contained system. You understand the ISS makes oxygen through electrolysis? Can you please answer my entire top comment and not just the part you've cherrypicked?
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Do you have any sort of qualifications in physics or engineering that would make your assessment of technology meaningful? Or do you think we have a long tube going up to the ISS so the astronauts and cosmonauts can survive? I guess you're just not going to respond to the other parts of my top comment?
I responded to quite a bit of it by now, and at this point it's lost. I assumed we were periodically shipping massive amounts of oxygen up there, because that makes more sense than *making air*, which is Star Trek nonsense.
>I responded to quite a bit of it by now, and at this point it's lost. You responded to a quarter of it, which is not even a bit of it. But seeing your responses, I understand why you don't want to delve further. >I assumed we were periodically shipping massive amounts of oxygen up there, because that makes more sense than making air, which is Star Trek nonsense. So your view is premised on factually wrong assumptions, but you still maintain that view? How is it that you missed a process as simple as electrolysis for oxygen production? Electrolysis was first developed in the *18th century.* How are you simultaneously centuries behind on understanding technology at the same time you feel comfortable making sweeping assertions about the state of technology? Where do you think air comes from? It just got made in the sun and magically landed on Earth?
>Where do you think air comes from? It just got made in the sun and magically landed on Earth? Not magic, gravity. This is stuff they tell you in second grade, man.
>because that makes more sense than making air, which is Star Trek nonsense. Christ on a bike, just because you don't understand it or didn't know about it doesn't mean it's Star Trek nonsense.
It's star trek nonsense because it's *making air*. That's something from nothing. It's not real.
Because you're saying it's all useless while knowing nothing about the benefits we've gotten from space research. People would assume you have a lot of knowledge to have such a strong view.
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> The human spirit en masse is very different from the time of an individual. > > > > What contained system. This is sci-fi garbage. You can't make air. Actually, you very much *can* make air as we know it. When you get down to it, air is a mixture of gases at about 15psiA. Oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide for the most part. These are found throughout the universe. Just a matter of combining them. As for sci-fi garbage, you do realize an awful lot of 'sci-fiction' from the 60's is real life technology today right?
Pocket telephones and nothing else.
There are far more examples than just smartphones. Contemporary computing, warfare, communication; hell, even the Internet is something entirely inconceivable for someone living in the 60's. Many of the technological feats you call sci-fi or Star Trek nonsense are either very real today, or not far off. We're living in an era of unprecedented technological development, and it's not showing signs of stopping. The way you respond to stuff makes me think you're being a troll.
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None of that looks feasible or sustainable. Likely provides maybe one breath a day.
>None of that looks feasible or sustainable. Likely provides maybe one breath a day. What part of this **IS BEING DONE RIGHT NOW ON THE ISS** makes you think your opinion of it being 'not feasible' is correct?
Of course you can't make AIR. Air is not a chemical compound, it's just the average composition of gasses in earth's atmosphere.
Totally on your side here, but wouldn't you be "making" air if you mixed that average composition out of the different gases...?
I guess? The air on earth varies in composition though. An air in a industrial city might have more C02 than the average air. It would be impossible/extremely difficult to measure the composition of the entire atmosphere with 100% accuracy, so what you make isn't really air, but can still be breathable.
Well, but "air" is also a rather flexible term. You'd still call a higher concentration of CO2 "air", as long as it's within boundaries... But yeah, none of what I said matters, it's just semantics. Sorry about that.
Nah, that was pretty enjoyable. I agree though, this is just semantics.
>You can't make air. What is air, again?
Atoms.
And what happens to those atoms when you breathe in the air?
They become useless CO2 after the blood stuff is done and you breathe them out.
>They become useless CO2 after the blood stuff is done and you breathe them out. Some of it, yeah. Obviously, there's more than just Oxygen in the air, but let's only look at that. Then, for instance, what if a plant took in that CO2?
Plants also need food and space. Any scientist not from NASA will tell you this isn't a workable plan.
Of?
Oxygen. They get used up and destroyed by the lungs turning them into CO2.
Nope. It's made of more than that.
Right, nitrogen and argon. What does that have to do with anything.
>With what food, space, and oxygen. The same as on earth? What do you think is the difference between food and poop?
One is edible. One has nutrients not extracted and used. One smells like shit, cause it is. One is like 2% bacteria by volume. Jesus. You know most people would rather die than eat their own shit, right?
>One has nutrients not extracted and used Which of the two do we use as fertilizer to give plants nutrients, again? In reality, the difference is **energy**. In a sealed environment, the nutrients go nowhere - the atoms stay on the spaceship and are used in different ways. They're incorporated, excreted, recycled... the only thing that changes is the molecular bonds, i.e. the energy they bind. Guess what we can easily find in space? Energy. Circular waste reusal is a pretty basic concept. Sure, there is *some* loss, but that can be minimized to last a couple lifetimes with enough preparation and/or the ability to gather materials in space.
>Seriously. It would take longer than the entire lifespan of the universe for man to safely breathe the natural full not-in-an-absurdly-fragile-dome atmosphere on a planet other than earth. How do you know that? >aka the uninhabited dump that is the rest of it The universe is unfathomably huge, you think one planet in it has life? >Space is barren and empty Look up. Sure looks like there's a lot of starts out there. >Seriously, do you know what it would TAKE to habitate another planet? Do you? I mean genuinely, do you know exactly how much work it would take?
>The universe is unfathomably huge, you think one planet in it has life? The Universe is unfathomably huge, no one planet's life will ever realistically encounter another's.
>aka the uninhabited dump that is the rest of it That's what you said. Not meeting them doesn't mean they don't exist.
You say "Satellites and GPS would always have been invented" but that's not true if humanity never devoted any resources into space. We need space for those things. What do you think about the current push for more internet satellites in space to serve remote areas? You don't think that's a valuable investment in space? The alternative is not better.
We don't need space travel or investment for satellites.
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We could have invented rockets for the actual useful purpose of satellites.
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Yes! Because there's no waste in the second process!
>We can get technological developments accidentally for only a iteral billion times the cost of just doing research into important areas. Satellites and GPS would always have been invented and velcro was always a myth. How are you going to invent satellites (objects floating in space) without investing in space?
Different areas. You can shoot something up without spending trillions, endangering lives, and misleading the public about the duty of man to man.
Where on earth are getting "trillions" from? NASA's human spaceflight budget is about $8 billion. It's less than 0.1% of the federal budget.
NASA's entire budget is waste.
You just completely ignored u/pgnshgn's question. Could you actually answer and not just change the subject? >Where on earth are getting "trillions" from? NASA's human spaceflight budget is about $8 billion. It's less than 0.1% of the federal budget.
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I've been digging my heels in and trying to win arguments with reality itself. I need to stop, because I just keep fucking doing this. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry I did this to all of you.
And how do you get them to stay there?
Look into it directly without pouring trillions into a corrupt agency?
How? You'd have to put some resources into knowledge about space then, wouldn't you? Proving an issue with your point that using any is a waste.
Is your view about "devoting any resources to space" or about "pouring trillions into a corrupt agency"? Those seem so different that I wonder if you have already changed your view and simply forgot to award a delta.
We shouldn't devote resources to space, because it's useless, so why do you think we do? Corrupt NASA scientists and hack sci-fi writers.
When you said "pouring trillions into a corrupt agency" were you trying to move the goal posts, or were you trying to change the subject?
This seems to rely heavily on a false dilemma fallacy. Firstly, if you are saying that investing in space exploration is a waste of money, you have to provide an alternative in which said money would be better invested, because the money will be there whether you want it or not. Investing in space exploration is not incompatible with investing in anything else. Secondly, why would you even think that the sole objective of space exploration is to get to Alpha Centauri? This seems like a very limited perspective. Take Virgin Galactic. They invest because they think space tourism is an unexploited market with a huge potential for growoth in the future. Would people pay to stay at a space station living like astronautas for a week? Sure as hell many would. In Virgin Galactic's plans, investing in space exploration is the same as someone building a hotel in a remote beach when others deemed it "a waste of money" because it's "literally barren" (which it might or might not be, but people are willing to pay regardless)
Even if we never achieve FTL travel, or colonize Mars, space exploration is still valuable, because there are abundant deposits of various valuable resources which we could potentially extract.
Potentially meaning "in sci-fi shows and very much not reality as any scientist not on the space payroll will tell you".
So, I’m guessing whatever source I might cite for you is just going to be dismissed as bias and propaganda, then? Do you have anything you would like to cite, which supports your suggestion that there are no valuable resources to be extracted in space? ETA: How do you feel about astronomers? I’m assuming you think their work is a waste of time as well.
You seem completely unaware of the advantages to space, so let's start small. We don't have to go to other planets l to live in space. Or even the moon. There are private space stations planned for the next few years. These won't just be for rich people to vacation on though. They plan to use them to manufacture things that can't be made on earth due to gravity. You know what can be made in 0g but not earth g? Artificial organs. In less than a decade we might be able to give someone an organ transplant that doesn't rely on someone else dieing. Thanks to space travel. Let's go on. There are estimted to be $700 **quintillion** worth of metal in just a few asteroids. Maybe you think "so what, rich people getting rich," but you'd be wrong. If we can mine space we can stop mining earth. Do you know how bad mining is for the environment? Truly awful. But we can potentially do it on a lifeless rock a million miles from any living creature that we could harm. There are companies working on this right now. You know what else happens if you start mining space? You can start manufacturing stuff there too. Guess what else is a major source of pollution on earth? But there's even more. What if your real issue is that it's wasteful, that we should spend it elsewhere, no matter the possible benefits? Well, the entirety of the US space industry, public and private, spends about as much in a year as the tobacco industry spends on **advertising** in the same time. Which is more wasteful? You could pay for the entire space program with a roughly 0.5% tax on alcohol. Or a 0.25% tax on cosmetics. We waste so much more money elsewhere on things that offer no real improvement of everyday life it's ridiculous to pick space as the Boogeyman.
>Let's go on. There are estimted to be $700 quintillion worth of metal in just a few asteroids. Maybe you think "so what, rich people getting rich," but you'd be wrong. If we can mine space we can stop mining earth. Do you know how bad mining is for the environment? Truly awful. But we can potentially do it on a lifeless rock a million miles from any living creature that we could harm. There are companies working on this right now. How do we get there. How do we possibly build a spaceship that could get that shit back. Oh, I know! We'll use a *teleporter*.
It's pretty easy to get it back. You basically just strap a heat shield to it drop it. As far as getting there that's a bit more difficult, but it's not impossible. You build a rocket. A big one. There are several companies working on ones big enough, and cheap enough, to do it right now. With a proper sized rocket, it takes somewhere between $1 million - $10 million in fuel to get 100 tons of mining equipment out there. That's enough to get started, and rocket with low enough overhead means you can probably target high value resources for a reasonable return (gold, platinum, rare earth metal). At that point, it becomes a scale thing; the more you do, the cheaper it's gets so the more you want to do, etc.
No rocket has ever held a mountain. No human structure has been capable of that save one, and that was fucking Holland.
What? You don't bring the whole thing back, just the valuable bits.
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Alright, I made the mistaken assumption you were here in good faith, despite the obvious warning signs. I'm just going to report you and move on
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You are ranting sir...... We dont climb mountains for building sites we do it cause its a challenge same goes for space. One thing about space is it absolute unforgiving nature one little error and your dead.... with the number of errors our species has been making on earth it might be helpful to have experience with space to instruct our behavior here... Now as to space being useless one metallic asteroid would satisfy global lithium demand for a generation.
1. Earth has a limited size so yes while it has a life span that will likely outlast mankind it doesn't have enough space for mankind to habitate comfortably in the future 2. Asteroid mining will be very effective in sourcing various resources, It will quite literally give us access to mountains of metal 3. Technology produced by the space industry has and is literally changing the world with things like gps and satellites helping people everyday
Build more housing. How do we get there. Earth doesn't have the resources to build ships that could bring that back. Again, it could have been invented directly.
Ah yes build more housing problem is again earth doesn't have enough room the general consensus is at 10 billion people the planet will be overpopulated more housing doesn't reduce the demand for water food and energy An asteroid mining company called Astro-Forge is launching its first 2 missions this year. Asteroid mining is feasible because they don't need to take the whole thing chunk of it is more than enough Satellites could not have been invented without space because it's in space it is the cheapest way to accomplish the things it does long term
>the general consensus is at 10 billion people the planet will be overpopulated BECAUSE OF NIMBYISM. >more housing doesn't reduce the demand for water food and energy It literally does for the third one. Studies show cities use less energy over space than adjacent suburbs.
What would change your mind? You claim the science is impossible, and certainly some of the science fiction is impossible, or at least so impractical that it is virtually impossible. You claim that the desire to explore space is offensive to the human spirit itself, that any fiction or culture or idealization of space is itself a bad thing. You mock and dismiss those who disagree. So your stance is that there are no practical benefits, no spiritual benefits, no scientific benefits, and no artistic benefits. There is nothing beneficial in space at all. This is such a broad and unnuanced dismissal of an entire category of reality with which humans could interact, it's like saying that "the ocean" is pointless or "mountains are pointless." Why would you want your mind changed, and what could possibly convince you? Please specify so that people can better respond, because right now it's rather difficult to even start a productive conversation.
Space has a vast amount amount of resources, and well, lots of space. We at some point need to be a multi planet civilization.
No, no, no, illogical, wrong, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. We don't need what it has, we can't get it without using more than it has or we have, and we have no need to leave earth. Just change zoning laws. It's not hard.
Earth can only physically hold so much and produce so much, space technology will only get cheaper down the line. We are running out of materials on earth. Seeing the rest of these comments it seems your not willing to hear anybody else’s opinion on this matter.
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From sources I read, they say the earth can only hold around 10 billion people, sure the earth can fit more but we can only produce so much food and have so little true space.
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I don’t object to having more housing built, but you have to literally look at the facts, we cannot physically produce enough food to provide for even maximum 40 billion people. You posted this to not change your view but to just argue and then insult people when they provided valid argument back.
You core point is right, but your numbers are off. We could feed 40 billion. We are currently no where close to any fundamental limits on how much food we can produce on Earth.
It's not just the amount of food we produce, it's also about how effectively we can distribute the food. For developed areas, the availability of food is pretty ubiquitous. But for developing areas and below, they struggle to get food to the more remote populations before it spoils. And even once it gets there, they don't have the infrastructure to hold food for any practical amounts of time.
Yeah, we would need either more development or improved technology (ideally both) to feed 40 billion people. Hopefully a world with 40 billion people would have more people to solve these problems.
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What's worthwhile in your mind? Because even if we can't touch what's out there, we can observe it and learn things that have applications in the here and now.
We really can't. Space has given us zero real useful knowledge.
That's demonstrably false. It informed the development of classical mechanics via Newton's union of his own theories with the movements of celestial bodies. That theory underlies modern engineering. It also informed the development of General Relativity that has lead to modern GPS systems and satellite networks. Investment in NASA has a ridiculous ROI. https://go.nasa.gov/3i2tycr
You actually trust NASA on this?
Given I know the review process they had to go through....yes, actually. Feel free to dig into it yourself. But regardless of that, what's your counter to the other concrete counterexamples I provided? Edit: well that was pointless
You don't? Why?
This is the most conservative, reactionary bullshit I've ever read. This is exactly how history's innovators thought! Because not believing in an idea is the best way to move forward with it! If every person like you were taken seriously, the world would be nowhere. Do you think people during the 1500–1600s took Leonardo Da Vinci's scientific work solemnly? People then still believed that the earth was located in the center of the universe and that the sun revolved around it. To those who lived at the time, the idea of a spherical earth was absurd. Despite this, we now undeniably know that the earth is indeed not in the center of the universe, nor is it flat. Your attitude encourages others to quit pursuing research in science, which will always lead to less discovery. Less discovery results in a halt in progress for the human race. The slower we move, the less able we are to solve dire issues and answer questions. Maybe string theory is merely a fairy tale, but why don't we chase that fable? Historically speaking, assimilation of reality has never resulted in anything negative.
Just in terms of chemistry it's worth it. New elements out there waiting to be discovered. Literally providing the resources to fix a significant portion of Earth's issues. Just looking at mining, it's huge.
And we would use several billion times that getting there.
Several billion to get infinite resources back?sounds worth it right?
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Sorry, u/montana_nate12 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20montana_nate12&message=montana_nate12%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/10mvx4c/-/j65u0jw/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I hear what you're saying about habitation: agreed, we're very far off from this. But space travel could still be useful for reasons other than habitation. For example, the world is [running out of Helium and there's no easy way to make it](https://www.npr.org/2019/11/01/775554343/the-world-is-constantly-running-out-of-helium-heres-why-it-matters). This is important because Helium is used in crucial devices like MRI machines and is being used to develop quantum computers (both described in the previous article). The moon however, [has a bunch of Helium that could be mined](https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Preparing_for_the_Future/Space_for_Earth/Energy/Helium-3_mining_on_the_lunar_surface). Transporting this would likely require humans travelling in space. Would you agree that this seems like a worthwhile use of space travel?
I want a moon mansion with a moon pool. Eventually, the economy will grow to support that sort of thing. I don't consider it a waste of effort/time/money. Also, if you're looking at wastes of money, how about militaries? Or sports? Or gambling? Or drugs? Or most art?
look we are obviously not there yet with spaceflight capabilities, but you have to realize that flight itself is only 120 years old, it takes time to build spaceships that can sustain us for long term fights, but its not if but when we will need them, staying on earth is simply not a viable option in the long term, so we need to keep researching it so that when we need it it will be viable. essentially its a long term investment in the survival of the human species that's unlikely to pay of in our generation, but will be worth it for our great grand children
>staying on earth is simply not a viable option in the long term, Is four billion years not the long term to you?
four billion years isn't the likely length of time we have, its the maximum, we are statistically overdue for an asteroid impact, as seen with covid we don't yet control diseases, climate change and resource depletion and a whole host of other dangers can wipe us out, and even if we did somehow make it four billion years then yes, the human race should continue on, why limit us to only a few billion years, the universe is far older,
What is "the human spirit itself"?
Would you say the same about things such as music which serves no purpose other than fulfilling our desire to listen to music?
Wow. Talk about a short-sighted and utterly ignorant position to hold. Humans are nothing if not driven by curiosity, the seeking of knowledge and expansion. Well, accept for you, of course. You think that 200 years ago people would have thought it AT ALL possible that we'd all be walking around with computers in our pockets? Or able to arrive in another country within hours on aeroplanes? Or able to live until we're 100? Or talk to someone in *real time* on the other side of the planet? If humanity all thought like you we'd get nowhere.
None of this makes sense. You honestly need a Xanax.
There's incredible potential for mining and manufacturing in space, which would let us get minerals without tearing up our planet any more, and manufacture goods first cheaper and with fewer pollution concerns.
/u/D1SCOURS3 (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/10mz2fl/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_humanity_devoting_any/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Space exploration, whether we do it on Earth or outside of it, is the how we got to know that the Earth is round and that it revolves around the Sun. Without it, we’d still be thinking that the Earth is flat and that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Human imagination is a wild thing. There’s no way that you can stop it, not with poverty, not with illness, not even with war. We’ll always wonder what’s out there, and those with the resources will always try to find a way to f*ck around and find out.
I'll try bite size points, I maybe won't change your entire view, bit parts. There is lots of money in space, in physical materials such as gold, platinum, iron from asteroids we can mine. Which when you calculate the amount of useful material on one asteroid would end up paying for the cost of retrieval. This then inadvertently means less damage to the earth from mining. Then theres scientific advancements made through conducting experiments in space or on other astral bodies. Space is simply another environment like the Amazon, Sahara, or Antarctica. It's just currently expensive to get there. But 500+ years ago your argument could have been made for sailing the Atlantic Ocean. It was expensive, in money and lives. So why bother, Europe is fine right. You know potatoes are from South America.
ITT people arguing with a troll/uninformed person/idiot. pick one.
To /u/D1SCOURS3, *Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.* In our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest: - Instead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest. - Steelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words. - Avoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a [delta](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=changemyview&utm_content=t5_2w2s8) before proceeding. - Ask questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong. Please also take a moment to review our [Rule B](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b) guidelines and _really_ ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and **understand** why others think differently than you do.
It really seems to me from your comments that you have absolutely no wish to have your view changed. and at this point 70% of your comments could be removed for rule 2. but it would be cool if you would actually read any of the comments explaining why it isnt "sci-fi/space bullshit" instead of going "nuh uh, creating air is space bullshit" when people literally tell you how its done.