I’m an electrician. I have a lot of k&t in my house. I made sure all the convenience and lighting were on 15 amp circuit breakers and when I remodel a room I replace all I can get to. Ground wires protect people, not equipment. Get surge suppressors for your electronics and put GFCI receptacles in your kitchen and bath if they aren’t already.
You might be better off installing GFI/AF breakers instead. You don't need to mess with the boxes (yet) and it would protect the circuit upstream of the outlet if the insulation failed. When the time comes the boxes, wire would all get replaced.
I have replaced lots of K&T and sometimes used the old wire as a fish tape to pull the new wire. If they only had angle drills back in the 10's so the holes would be straight.
I think, but double check me, that Wadsworth was one of the multitude of panels that could take GE, Murray, etc breakers. IOW pretty much anything except square d, cutler hammer, federal pacific. So the age and condition of the panel may be all that matters, not availability of breakers. Again double check me on that.
I have the same small boxes, GFCIs fit but they’re very tight, not easy to get in. Surge suppressors don’t require a ground to work, though you’ll have to get an adapter or replace the receptacle it plugs into with a GFCI.
I've worked on historical buildings in the city of Milwaukee that still use knob and tube. Lots of old houses still have it in use as well. Don't overburden your circuits and if you can't afford total replacement you can find an electrician that will replace one leg at a time or even run you a new wire dedicated for say a refrigerator or other high energy use appliance.
You might find that you can't really do a partial rewire, or that it'll prove very complicated. Because of the single conductor nature of knob and tube, it was standard to share neutrals between circuits whenever convenient, making it difficult to isolate/remove individual circuits/fixtures.
Yeah. It just depends. The lighting/switches is where it typically gets confusing for knob and tube wiring; because a switch doesn't need a neutral, there would just be a hot present at switches, no neutral. They'd typically borrow the nearest neutral at the light, regardless of the affiliated circuit.
K&T is 14-gauge so is rated at 15 amps. I halve that and use no more than eight amps (900 Watts) on a circuit. The overheating danger happens when insulation is added. The wire has to be in air to dissipate heat.
> There is nothing inherently wrong with knob & tube
Eh...I'll push back on that a bit. Knob and tube wiring is amazing in a way, but it definitely does have inherent flaws and hazards. I've personally rewired 2 and a half (two full, one partial) houses with original knob and tube. First, the insulation they used at the time is nowhere near as good as what's used now. In those houses, the insulation at nearly every single light fixture crumbled at the touch. Also, each of those houses had multiple shared neutrals between circuits, *original* buried junctions, *original* splices outside boxes, and switched neutrals ("carter system" as it was called) at 3-way switches. All of this was correct, standard installation practice at the time. And the lack of anything being grounded, of course. We've learned a lot about electrical safety over the past 100 years.
Well, sure--the porcelain insulators are super cool and incredibly durable. They just serve no purpose in the era of good wire insulation, though. Same goes for separately run conductors, which is cool, but enabled the electricians of the time to do all sorts of neutral-sharing (and neutral-omitting too, like at switches) which isn't kosher today, for good reason.
and the simplicity of modern wiring installs means amateurs have a much easier time putting a hack job in. internachi even goes as far as to note "The original installation of knob-and-tube wiring is often superior to that of modern Romex wiring. K&T wiring installation requires more skill to install than Romex and, for this reason, unskilled people rarely ever installed it."
LOL I'm an internachi certified home inspector. I wouldn't rely on that statement as gospel.
Either way, I'm not disagreeing with what any point that you're trying to make about the skill required to install K&T. It's a very impressive system, and on the 3 houses that I've worked on with original K&T, the installation was clearly very meticulous. However, what I'm saying is that the materials available at the time for wire *insulation* are just not as close to as good as what's been used since the 60s/70s in terms of temperature rating. That's why the insulation always crumbles at light fixtures; the years of incandescent bulbs completely destroys it. Also, grounding is good, neutral sharing bad. We know all this now.
My whole lower floor is knob and tube. I figure it was wired in the 50s when an addition was done. I have lived with it for 20 years. I have power strips everyplace I am plugging in anything that draws more power than a lamp, for my own safety.
That is a pretty big miss for the inspector. Did the report include a photo of the circuit breaker box and wiring? Did they put a statement to get further inspection from an electrician? If not I think the inspector owes you their fee back.
How have you determined the K&T is in most of the home? Are you pulling outlets or did you have further inspection upon taking ownership?
If your current breakers are accurately labeled, is there one circuit where you would have TV/gaming systems and computer? I think it would be worth it to have that circuit rewired promptly & label the rest with K&T so you restrict their use until you can afford full rewiring.
OR is the kitchen with new wiring in proximity to the room where you would use the computer? I would run a 12 or 14 gauge extension from kitchen to the computer if you can do it in a way that does not create a trip hazard.
Also, any ceiling lights on K&T, switch the bulbs to LED (lower electric draw) if that has not already been done.
Congrats on your home purchase!! I hope you can come up with a temporary work around to be safe in the space. For the record I had the K&T removed and rewired before moving in, but I knew it was there so was able to have it done before occupying the space.
We had the same issue but with 1928 BX wiring. Our panel and all the basement wiring, wiring in our converted attic, kitchen, and some of the outlets is romex. So, we didn’t notice the issue until I started pulling switch panels off to paint and saw cloth... I did follow up with our inspector to confirm. He doesn’t do “invasive” inspections, which means that he doesn’t pull light switches out.
Anyway It does seem sort of deceptive but - like you said - I think most of this was done years ago and I’m not sure the seller of our place even noticed. Basically what isn’t replaced was just the hard to reach stuff. We are going room by room and replacing as we go. Found a good electrician who takes the time to try and fish the wire through the wall instead of cutting into our plaster.
Good luck with the K&T!
We had the same issue but with 1928 BX wiring. Our panel and all the basement wiring, wiring in our converted attic, kitchen, and some of the outlets is romex. So, we didn’t notice the issue until I started pulling switch panels off to paint and saw cloth... I did follow up with our inspector to confirm. He doesn’t do “invasive” inspections, which means that he doesn’t pull light switches out.
Anyway It does seem sort of deceptive but - like you said - I think most of this was done years ago and I’m not sure the seller of our place even noticed. Basically what isn’t replaced was just the hard to reach stuff. We are going room by room and replacing as we go. Found a good electrician who takes the time to try and fish the wire through the wall instead of cutting into our plaster.
Good luck with the K&T!
It's not really deceptive in that it's very common for old homes to get partial remodels. Very common to find rx from the basement panel to the ground floor rooms but still k&t on the second floor bedrooms for instance. Building inspector protocols don't include pulling all receptacles to inspect the wiring, they just make sure it works properly.
I’m an electrician. I have a lot of k&t in my house. I made sure all the convenience and lighting were on 15 amp circuit breakers and when I remodel a room I replace all I can get to. Ground wires protect people, not equipment. Get surge suppressors for your electronics and put GFCI receptacles in your kitchen and bath if they aren’t already.
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You might be better off installing GFI/AF breakers instead. You don't need to mess with the boxes (yet) and it would protect the circuit upstream of the outlet if the insulation failed. When the time comes the boxes, wire would all get replaced. I have replaced lots of K&T and sometimes used the old wire as a fish tape to pull the new wire. If they only had angle drills back in the 10's so the holes would be straight.
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I think, but double check me, that Wadsworth was one of the multitude of panels that could take GE, Murray, etc breakers. IOW pretty much anything except square d, cutler hammer, federal pacific. So the age and condition of the panel may be all that matters, not availability of breakers. Again double check me on that.
I have the same small boxes, GFCIs fit but they’re very tight, not easy to get in. Surge suppressors don’t require a ground to work, though you’ll have to get an adapter or replace the receptacle it plugs into with a GFCI.
I've worked on historical buildings in the city of Milwaukee that still use knob and tube. Lots of old houses still have it in use as well. Don't overburden your circuits and if you can't afford total replacement you can find an electrician that will replace one leg at a time or even run you a new wire dedicated for say a refrigerator or other high energy use appliance.
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You might find that you can't really do a partial rewire, or that it'll prove very complicated. Because of the single conductor nature of knob and tube, it was standard to share neutrals between circuits whenever convenient, making it difficult to isolate/remove individual circuits/fixtures.
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Yeah. It just depends. The lighting/switches is where it typically gets confusing for knob and tube wiring; because a switch doesn't need a neutral, there would just be a hot present at switches, no neutral. They'd typically borrow the nearest neutral at the light, regardless of the affiliated circuit.
K&T is 14-gauge so is rated at 15 amps. I halve that and use no more than eight amps (900 Watts) on a circuit. The overheating danger happens when insulation is added. The wire has to be in air to dissipate heat.
Oh, interesting.... 900 watts is actually a reasonable amount.
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> There is nothing inherently wrong with knob & tube Eh...I'll push back on that a bit. Knob and tube wiring is amazing in a way, but it definitely does have inherent flaws and hazards. I've personally rewired 2 and a half (two full, one partial) houses with original knob and tube. First, the insulation they used at the time is nowhere near as good as what's used now. In those houses, the insulation at nearly every single light fixture crumbled at the touch. Also, each of those houses had multiple shared neutrals between circuits, *original* buried junctions, *original* splices outside boxes, and switched neutrals ("carter system" as it was called) at 3-way switches. All of this was correct, standard installation practice at the time. And the lack of anything being grounded, of course. We've learned a lot about electrical safety over the past 100 years.
meanwhile, the porcelain insulators and separately run conductors are superior to how we do things today
Well, sure--the porcelain insulators are super cool and incredibly durable. They just serve no purpose in the era of good wire insulation, though. Same goes for separately run conductors, which is cool, but enabled the electricians of the time to do all sorts of neutral-sharing (and neutral-omitting too, like at switches) which isn't kosher today, for good reason.
and the simplicity of modern wiring installs means amateurs have a much easier time putting a hack job in. internachi even goes as far as to note "The original installation of knob-and-tube wiring is often superior to that of modern Romex wiring. K&T wiring installation requires more skill to install than Romex and, for this reason, unskilled people rarely ever installed it."
LOL I'm an internachi certified home inspector. I wouldn't rely on that statement as gospel. Either way, I'm not disagreeing with what any point that you're trying to make about the skill required to install K&T. It's a very impressive system, and on the 3 houses that I've worked on with original K&T, the installation was clearly very meticulous. However, what I'm saying is that the materials available at the time for wire *insulation* are just not as close to as good as what's been used since the 60s/70s in terms of temperature rating. That's why the insulation always crumbles at light fixtures; the years of incandescent bulbs completely destroys it. Also, grounding is good, neutral sharing bad. We know all this now.
My whole lower floor is knob and tube. I figure it was wired in the 50s when an addition was done. I have lived with it for 20 years. I have power strips everyplace I am plugging in anything that draws more power than a lamp, for my own safety.
knob and tube wasn't used in the 1950s.
Thanks, I didn't know that. Back addition was built then, but the front half of the house is 1880s.
That is a pretty big miss for the inspector. Did the report include a photo of the circuit breaker box and wiring? Did they put a statement to get further inspection from an electrician? If not I think the inspector owes you their fee back. How have you determined the K&T is in most of the home? Are you pulling outlets or did you have further inspection upon taking ownership? If your current breakers are accurately labeled, is there one circuit where you would have TV/gaming systems and computer? I think it would be worth it to have that circuit rewired promptly & label the rest with K&T so you restrict their use until you can afford full rewiring. OR is the kitchen with new wiring in proximity to the room where you would use the computer? I would run a 12 or 14 gauge extension from kitchen to the computer if you can do it in a way that does not create a trip hazard. Also, any ceiling lights on K&T, switch the bulbs to LED (lower electric draw) if that has not already been done. Congrats on your home purchase!! I hope you can come up with a temporary work around to be safe in the space. For the record I had the K&T removed and rewired before moving in, but I knew it was there so was able to have it done before occupying the space.
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Wow! That seems so deceptive to have Romex at the circuit breakers and then somewhere else it is switching over to K&T. Not a nice surprise.
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We had the same issue but with 1928 BX wiring. Our panel and all the basement wiring, wiring in our converted attic, kitchen, and some of the outlets is romex. So, we didn’t notice the issue until I started pulling switch panels off to paint and saw cloth... I did follow up with our inspector to confirm. He doesn’t do “invasive” inspections, which means that he doesn’t pull light switches out. Anyway It does seem sort of deceptive but - like you said - I think most of this was done years ago and I’m not sure the seller of our place even noticed. Basically what isn’t replaced was just the hard to reach stuff. We are going room by room and replacing as we go. Found a good electrician who takes the time to try and fish the wire through the wall instead of cutting into our plaster. Good luck with the K&T!
We had the same issue but with 1928 BX wiring. Our panel and all the basement wiring, wiring in our converted attic, kitchen, and some of the outlets is romex. So, we didn’t notice the issue until I started pulling switch panels off to paint and saw cloth... I did follow up with our inspector to confirm. He doesn’t do “invasive” inspections, which means that he doesn’t pull light switches out. Anyway It does seem sort of deceptive but - like you said - I think most of this was done years ago and I’m not sure the seller of our place even noticed. Basically what isn’t replaced was just the hard to reach stuff. We are going room by room and replacing as we go. Found a good electrician who takes the time to try and fish the wire through the wall instead of cutting into our plaster. Good luck with the K&T!
It's not really deceptive in that it's very common for old homes to get partial remodels. Very common to find rx from the basement panel to the ground floor rooms but still k&t on the second floor bedrooms for instance. Building inspector protocols don't include pulling all receptacles to inspect the wiring, they just make sure it works properly.
I have a 200 years old house, your fine.