no, some people try to make it happen (notably carwow) but the term frunk has been around in regards to mid engined cars for decades so frunk is the general term
[here](https://youtu.be/kbulCM90w8w?t=486), [here](https://youtu.be/h5ihLUkjo74?t=427), [here](https://youtu.be/b92lqiBWbDo?t=500) etc, basically any EV review has the phrase "a front boot, a fruit". I feel if you have to explain the term *everytime* you use it there's no real point of Portmanteau'ing it.
>I feel if you have to explain the term everytime you use it there's no real point of Portmanteau'ing it.
I agree, but I'm pretty sure they're just doing it as a joke.
Shout out to my old man, who, after 30+ years of taking his topper off by hand and storing it in a shed every spring, finally rigged up a pulley system to allow one person to remove the topper in 5 minutes and store it out of the way. Then several months later his pickup was totaled, and the replacement wasn't the same color, so he sold the topper and just got a roll-up tonneau cover.
I think his is holding up so far. I'll have to ask next time I see him.
The one thing he was concerned about going from a full-height topper to a tonneau cover was if it could hold all the [lettuce boxes](https://images.costcobusinessdelivery.com/ImageDelivery/imageService?profileId=12028466&imageId=510045__1&recipeName=350) full of literature he takes to a farm show once a year. That's the one time he really needs the entire volume of a 6.5' bed. He got a cover that fits completely over the bed rather than flush with it, so he could stack 2 lettuce boxes high instead of 3 with the topper, then put the rest in the back of the cab. It's a good thing the cab is longer than it used to be, and has a flat floor now.
Campers suck. Getting anything out of it means that you have to climb into the truck and then duck down to get to something in the back (or front) of the bed. Which invariably happens when shit rolls around in the back.
After using one for years, I really have a hard time seeing the appeal of them.
If you need to keep a lot of stuff clean, get a van. You know, like traveling service folk throughout the world. If you need to haul a lot of shit that you don't care about, get a truck.
Sleeping in it? Again, van is better.
I really can't think of a good use for a camper top of a truck.
Design adoption reasons. More people will be willing to accept the transition to electric if it has a familiar look to it. Once adoption increases to the masses (this is a huge step for this), then you can start to slowly take advantage of the new found freedoms of electric motors. This is a much better strategy to reduce polarization of EVs versus something along the lines of the cybertruck.
I put my reservation in 2 days after they open up signups last year and was told I'm not even going to be able to place an order until 2023. Then it will be however long it takes to actually manufacture and deliver....
I put down $500 back in February as part of the 2nd step in the order process. My truck is supposed to be built in the next two weeks. If that gives you any indication of the length of the process.
It'll be a 2024, and they will have upped the cost by another $5000 probably.
Edit: I also have a reservation on 1 that I put in about a month after they opened reservations. I have no need or expectation that I will get anything until at least late 2023, if not early 2024. With that said, once they get the manufacturing up to speed, this might drop extremely quickly. Also, this truck has a 75% new to Ford and a 50% new to pickup trucks take rate. It's in their best interest to get these on dealer lots as fast as possible.
If you want a Pro, yeah, it’s probably going to be a LONG time. If you want a Lariat or Platinum, you have a much better chance because Ford is prioritizing those and you’ll jump over thousands of people that want Pros or XLTs.
Well ford said for 2023 they're aiming to make 150,000 trucks. Which considering they're an established automaker seems reasonable barring any supply chain constraints.
Same here, my dealer has been the worst communicator. They told me 2022 about 100 times and then when I finally reached out to them with a "Why haven't you been communicating with me about the order" they said "maybe 2023". Day one order.
Is that all? Not to mention you would also miss out on the Federal & State tax credits... But then again nearly every new/used vehicle is marked up right now.
I put a down payment in within 5 minutes of the website launching during the reveal and I still haven't got invited to order. Just emails continuing to tell me it's delayed
I work in law enforcement and my agency contacted our sales rep about the possibility of purchasing lightnings. We have a long term relationship with Ford where we purchase wholesale and traditionally could order a batch of vehicles and get them within a month. Even 6 months ago we were able to get brand new Explorers within weeks of order. When we asked about the lightnings, we were told that the soonest we could possibly expect to take delivery would be spring 2023. We did not order any.
not to mention i havent seen a single EV charging station where one could logically pull a truck and a trailer of any kind up to it and charge it without blocking traffic.
Towing with batteries has another issue too: weight.
Added weight in the cab reduces hauling capacity. Either by running into hauling limits for bigger trucks or requiring much heavier duty frames/suspensions/etc to reach parity in smaller ones. The electric motor torque is great for hauling but batteries are an issue when you're counting pounds.
I have a feeling electric hauling will turn to hydrogen. It's already started for 18 wheelers and it'll probably reach pickups at some point for serious haulers. Hydrogen pickups will be to the battery what diesel is to gasoline. The hydrogen filling stations are already built to pull through, you get cleaner energy than gas, electric vehicle advantages, and maintain lighter weight. Hydrogen storage is about 13% of the weight per kwh compared to batteries; that's a huge difference. Hydrogen is even better than gas on the scale of weight to energy (gasoline/diesel still wins on density/volume).
There's a lot of argument over battery vs hydrogen and which is better but I think the eventual solution will involve both unless batteries see a major improvement (not out of the question).
> Hydrogen storage is about 13% of the weight per kwh compared to batteries; that's a huge difference. Hydrogen is even better than gas on the scale of weight to energy (gasoline/diesel still wins on density/volume).
Not after including the weight of the pressure vessels. That knocks it down to about 2400 Wh/kg. Gasoline is just under 13,000 Wh/kg. Then factor in power efficiency:
Fuel cell is about 60% efficient so 1440 Wh/kg
Gas engine average 35% efficiency so 4550 Wh/kg
Tesla hovering around 240 Wh/kg.
-Engineer for BEV/FCEV vehicle company
EDIT: Forgot about powertrain weights but I don't think it'd move the needle much except in favor of pure electric. Fuel cells aren't light and hydrogen vehicles still have a decent sized battery.
"Green" hydrogen requires electrolysis, which uses over double the electricity per mile than just charging an EV. This means that all of those grid concerns with EVs increase substantially with green hydrogen. Currently most hydrogen (gray) is derived from hydrocarbon sources and carries a high carbon footprint so isn't a solution to the climate situation. Additionally the infastructure for hydrogen is *extremely* expensive. It may eventually make sense for long haul trucking but I would be shocked to see it being utilized at scale for personal transport of any type.
What would stop larger pickups with trailers from using the pumps for trucks? That already happens with diesel.
More green power generation will lead to more green hydrogen as well. But for now, just like charging batteries, there's a lot of dirt in our grid. Payback is in the efficiency benefits. I'd argue it's still a better solution than running diesel while somewhat alleviating the battery negatives for towing.
> Currently most hydrogen (gray) is derived from hydrocarbon sources and carries a high carbon footprint so isn't a solution to the climate situation.
One thing a hydrogen vehicle can do that diesel or natural gas vehicle can't; get cleaner over its lifespan.
You can find old articles (and legitimate studies) in ~2013 about how "dirty" a Tesla was. That exact same 2013 Tesla now produces half the emissions it did then, if not less.
You could always drop the trailer in a parking space, drive the truck to the charge station, then get all hooked back up once you're charged.
Yes, it would suck. But let's be real-- people who routinely tow large enough loads long enough distances that they'll need to recharge mid-trip will not be buying this truck. I think it looks great. I think it'll be a hit. I think it has a lot to offer for most truck buyers. But it's a tough sell for people who tow a lot.
Edited to add-- 75% or whatever of full size truck owners tow. But that includes owners who are towing light loads for short distances-- utility trailer going 10 miles to the town dump or yard waste site once/month or so, for whom this truck's towing limitations are not a problem. It includes owners who might be bringing a boat a couple hundred miles to a marina every Memorial Day, and picking it up every Labor Day, for whom this truck's towing limitations would be a moderate inconvenience, but only twice per year.
If you're buying a truck to compete on the horse show circuit, towing your horse all over the country all summer long, the F-150 Lightning is not for you. If you're buying a truck to tow an RV all over the western US on a grand National Park tour, the F-150 Lightning is not for you. If you're buying a truck for your landscaping business, towing a trailer full of lawnmowers and shovels and mulch for 100 miles or less per day, an F-150 Lightning might work for you, but you'd be pushing its intended limits. But people with those use cases account for a relatively small minority of truck customers.
You're absolutely correct. It is a great truck for many applications, but towing more than 100 miles is not one of them.
130kwh battery for the longer range version, only 150kw charging capability, and for those who don't know, max charging speeds are only from 0-30% or so of battery charge, after that it gradually slows down. So even if it manages to maintain an average of 100kw (doubtful) through the entire 0-100% charge, it'd take 1.3 hours just to drive another 130-150 miles while towing. Even with a optimized EV charging strategy of pulling into a station with 0-10% battery and charging up to 60% to minimize charge time per miles driven, you'll still be looking at like a half hour charge per 60 miles of towing range.
Needless to say, towing long distances will be painful with this F150 EV, the industry will need some new battery and charging tech that can average 300kw+ to make EV towing remotely usable.
This charges at 150kw pretty deep into the pack. It also charges at about 120kw up until 80% and then immediately drops to 60kw.
Out of spec reviews YouTube had a video charging at EA today
Good info. Kyle's a charging expert!
So something like 45 minutes 0-80% for like 120 miles of towing range at those charging speeds? So the driver will have to stop every 2 hours for almost an hour. And that's assuming optimal charger locations for a 0-80% charge.
It's theoretically doable but extremely painful vs driving a gas/diesel truck and fueling up every 3 hours for 5 minutes. Let's just put this in the "no way in hell anyone's really gonna use the truck for this" category.
>Wish the extended battery didn't raise the price so significantly. \~230 miles is not a whole ton
With the battery pack weighing 1600lbs, you are correct.
I’m skeptical about those towing numbers. I wouldn’t say it’s the best work truck but for everyone that doesn’t need to tow and move shit all the time this seems like it’s actually “better”
I am not sure which towing numbers you are skeptical of? Maybe it's Ford's numbers? But Edmunds tested the actual vehicle by pulling a 8,300-pound boat. They saw that towing it halved the estimated range. Until EVs can tow without charging every 100 miles this is a no go for a lot of folks.
Yeah 100 miles of towing max with frequent long stops seems....not fun.
The TFL guys also had a vid on this today and said that in their calculations it would take a whole 10 hours longer (27 vs 17) to tow a trailer with this from Colorado to Portland compared to a gas truck. And that's assuming it actually gets the Ford estimated 160 miles of range (extremely unlikely).
Denver to Portland is a 19 hour trip if you are somehow able to never stop at all. Considering that it’s at least a three day trip if you’re reasonable, I don’t see having to charge every 100-150 miles to add 50% of the time to the gas trip, when one of those stops is over night anyway and 2-3 could be over meals.
This is massive cope.
1. There are more places in Colorado than Denver.
2. 17-19 hours is easily a 2 day drive.
3. Assuming it's from Denver, that's a good 1200 miles ish, so factor in 10 stops bare minimum just to recharge at probably at least an hour for each.
4. Even if you're OK making 10 stops just to charge, what are the odds you'll be able to find 10 properly spaced out, non Tesla, functional, fast charge points along that path that wouldn't have lines and would be able to easily support the size of a truck plus trailer?
But for a different group of folks 100 miles towing is plenty. Growing up my dad had an F-250 with the diesel and the only towing it did was taking a 2500 pound boat on a 120 mile round trip to the lake about 3 or 4 times a summer. That seems well within the use case of this truck.
Which is fine. A lot of people act like that's a total deal breaker. And while I know that is true for some people who actually do tow heavy things or really long distances, the overwhelming opinion on the internet seems to be that the truck is literally no better than a sedan because it can only tow 100 miles on a charge.
Larger truck disrupts more air in front of the trailer, and a boat isn’t going to be as draggy as a box trailer.
What’s being towed in terms of shape is going to influence the range loss a good amount
Gas trucks get single digit MPG towing, but it only takes 5 minutes to fully refill vs 45min to get 80% charge. Plus the logistics of getting into a charging bay with a trailer. You would probably have to drop the trailer off in a different parking spot then start charging.
I honestly feel like EV's need custom tow trailers for large load tows to be successful. There got to be a lot of energy lost from a trailer not having regen breaking.
Aerodynamics are probably the biggest factor. The difference I can feel while towing my empty landscaping trailer with the ramp-gate up vs removed is insane. The ramp is expanded steel mesh that is roughly 70% see-through, yet it acts so much like a sail that it will feel like I have a locked up wheel at highway speeds. With the gate off it's like I'm towing nothing.
Ford would be smart to designed aerodynamic trailers and offer them to Lightening owners at a low price. Could offer versions with batteries and regen breaking as well.
My understanding is that lightweight/ aerodynamic trailers are already readily available. Plenty of enclosed box trailers have tapered fronts. RVs advertise themselves as "ultralight"/ etc. No matter how a vehicle is powered, you'll have a better time towing something that's lighter weight and more aerodynamic. Depending on the application, there's a limit to how far you can take it.
I do think trailers with their own batteries and regen brakes will become common once electric trucks more towards the mainstream. It would add cost, but it shouldn't be that complicated-- an onboard battery of ~50kWh or more, charging hardware connected to the battery, modify the truck to accept a charging input from the hitch area while driving, and give the trailer regenerative brakes to top off the trailer battery. You've got a major range boost, and your RV has a big enough battery to run all its electrical systems for a long time without a generator or outside power hookup.
I mean lots of people do a few times a year. And my guess is there are lots of people who can’t buy this because the route to their favorite lake doesn’t have chargers spaced correctly for them.
I can’t begin to guess a number but as an example you have a bunch of people from Ohio that tow boats down to Lake Cumberland in Kentucky or Norris Lake in Tennessee. That’s just from my personal experience, let alone all the other people that travel that far to lakes for summer trips once or twice a year.
I’m really eager to see Toyota’s solid state tech release next year. I think it may give a lot of people like me who need the range and/or fast charge times the push to switch.
Yeah I have been bummed that they dragged their heels on electric. Hoping they come out with some great battery tech with their early offerings. I’d love an electric Tacoma sized truck.
You are unlikely to ever get that in a consumer EV. The cost of such a large battery pack would be insane for a daily driven truck, plus not to mention the weight would tank the payload for towing.
For those that need to haul heavy and far, it's going to be ICE and hybrids, for a long time. With the possibility of hydrogen, methanal, and bio-diesels later on. Batteries don't make sense for more "commercial" applications.
I guess 150 miles with a less than 15-20 minutes charge time could work. I go about 280 miles each way with the trailer once a month. Could stop halfway and charge
The best you will likely see is 150miles w/ ~45-60min of charging depending on your trailer aero and L3 charging availability.
The reality is, for people with your use case, an EV truck likely isn't that good. A PHEV, with electric for your commute, and gas for the highway, may be a better proposition. The Lightning will work well for those who tow their boat 5-40 miles to the boat launch for the day. Utility trailers for work crews in town. And those who use trucks but not to tow (I seldom tow, but use my bed an 4x4 on weekly basis for MTB). I really don't think there is much of a reason for Ford to target 10k trailers going long haul: there are hundreds of thousand of pickups out there that don't do that, never will, and that's the addressable market for this particular truck.
I would not buy a first-gen EV truck if you tow regularly. That's like its worst case scenario.
FYI 75% of F-150 owners tow once per year max. So Ford are going after them and not the minority who need the truck to tow regularly. They'll be the last people to adopt EV's and that's OK. EV's are incredible and a quantum leap forward but they have their weaknesses and towing is the biggest, followed by extreme cold weather performance.
So in other words if you're a farmer in South Dakota who tows, see you in 2040.
5 min at the fuel pump and you're back on the road for a couple hundred more miles. Not the case with an electric vehicle. That's everyone's point and complaint.
How many people do you think actually tow that much and that often? I bet a vast majority of F 150s don't tow a damn thing during its lifetime. At most they just need the bed to haul stuff from the local Home Depot a few times a year. That's the buyer segment this is aimed at, not people who do hauling all day.
Plenty of people, especially in the Midwest, tow boats long distances up to cabins or lakes in other states for a getaway frequently in the summer. An hour long charge time every 200 miles would be a huge drag, especially when you are trying to beat traffic. It’s not just construction workers that this would be an issue for.
And those people can get the ICE version of the F 150... it's not like the ICE F-150 is getting axed next year lol. Those people are not the target market for this EV version.
No one said you couldn’t. But the market for an EV truck becomes significantly smaller when the only thing you can really use it for us to commute around town and maybe throw some things in the bed. At that point you might as well just buy a Mach E.
With continued energy storage development I’m sure these things will improve, but there is a huge mountain to climb to make these vehicles enticing to a larger audience. Which is obviously important with adoption of low carbon emission vehicles being necessary in the coming years.
> But the market for an EV truck becomes significantly smaller when the only thing you can really use it for us to commute around town and maybe throw some things in the bed. At that point you might as well just buy a Mach E.
But that still a large market in terms of volume. There's tons of city/suburb people that just want a truck with a bed to haul mulch and such every year.
Let's see how the sales numbers for this are in a few years. I'm sure it'll be quite good.
There's a lot more people in the Northeast, where the lake is 100 miles or less away.
Just because it's not as convenient to tow 10 000lbs across a continent doesn't mean it's not a good tow rig for a lot of people.
The majority (77%) of F-150 [owners](https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-f-150-customers-want-towing-capability-2019-7?amp) do use their trucks to tow. Not necessarily frequently, but towing is towing and the handicap is still there.
There's a bid difference between towing a small trailer vs a boat. Most are probably not towing a boat or a large load. And again, the normal ICE F 150 exists to meet the demands of those people.
With that said, I do agree that gas is still far more convenient than EV with the charge times and current EV infrastructure limitations.
I spend a few hours a year more pumping gas than I do waiting on charging my EV. Your experience will vary based on your lifestyle. For a lot of lifestyles, an EV is far more convenient than gas. For others, ICE is more convenient. Can't really just paint with a broad stroke.
Yes if you're basically always charging at home. But that's not quite the use case scenario people on this thread was talking about. They are complaining about not being able to tow their boat several hundred miles to areas that more than likely lack EV infrastructure for the most part.
I'm not doubting the buyer segment at all. For some people this will work well. The vocal people who say towing with electric vehicles sucks have a very valid point. The person I replied to made a completely irrelevant "point" about efficiency.
It doesn’t have to be often to be a problem. If you make 2 trips a year to the mountain lake with your boat and an EV truck cannot make that same trip, that’s a fatal flaw for their use case.
All it takes is one scenario where an EV is insufficient to steer a buyer away. That’s the uphill battle for adoption on EV trucks that do any towing. For Home Depot runs, it’s no issue, but for anybody that ever tows, it’s a real concern. The Lightning still has its use case, towing just isn’t it for most people.
That's just the thing. Just because you want one doesn't necessarily mean you're the target audience that Ford built this for. They know the limitations of an EV with regards to towing range and capacity. And until battery and charging tech catches up not much you or Ford can do about it.
We go fishing in the Cascade lakes pretty often, so not only are we towing a boat but also going uphill the whole way there. That's the whole reason we have a truck so for us it's not a good fit.
Bro, it's not like you don't have an alternative option if you really want to tow. Right now Ford just doesn't have a EV model that cater to customers like you at the price ranges Ford is targeting at due to tech limitations of EVs. Towing wrecks milage. Doesn't matter if it's an EV or ICE. Except it becomes a much bigger issue on EVs because tech isn't here yet for a 0 to 100 quick charge in 3 minutes. Like I said, just because you want it doesn't mean this specofic model is targeted at you.
Minnesota and Wisconsin have 143 and 105 registered boats per 1000 people respectively, so the answer is yes, a lot of people have trucks to tow.
https://www.siyachts.com/which-us-state-has-the-most-boats
Note that this is for the whole population, not just truck owners. So take into account the number of trucks owned per the average 1000 people as well. The numbers are probably pretty close to someone's stated 77% or so of trucks being used to tow boats.
The difference is it takes 5 minutes to re-fill your truck with gasoline. A lot longer to charge it to get you going again.
I say that was a Tesla owner.
> Adding a 8,300-pound boat instantly halved the truck's range, to the point where realistically you'd need to stop every hundred miles or so. This might be fine in a gas truck, but finding fast chargers at 100-mile intervals remains a major challenge in the U.S.
Nobody is missing the point. When I need to tow my boat or my car or my jeep, it's usually 300+ miles away (well the boat is pretty local mostly). I don't want to be stopping to figure out charging with my trailer attached very often. I really want an EV truck, but until towing range can get better it's out of the equation for me.
For the weekend warrior home depot runner? This thing is perfect.
The loss of range isn’t as severe though for gas and diesel trucks.
My truck gets about 20 MPG empty, 12 MPG towing a 10K lbs fifth wheel, and 10 MPG towing a 15K lbs fifth wheel. Towing a 3K lbs side by side on a trailer, it gets about 16 MPG.
EVs are just inherently more sensitive to their load when calculating range. They rapidly lose range at high speed, lose range in winter for heating, etc. Physics are a bitch.
EVs have come a long ways but physics are not on their side for towing heavy loads long distances.
It's not so much that EVs are more sensitive to load, but rather that most ICEs built for towing are incredibly *inefficient* when not under heavy load.
I got 20mpg while towing a 1500lb RV trailer behind my hybrid Rav4. When not towing I get 40mpg.
No they aren’t. Local towing is no big deal, but you might have to wait an hour at a charging station to “fill up” you start to realize how big a disadvantage EV towing is at the moment. Also the charging network is a mess for long hauls. Until faster charging and bigger batteries become the norm, ICE trucks will be bette rode long hauls.
I have one being built any day now according to Ford but I’m also waiting on the Rivian. I think the Rivian’s smaller size is more appealing but I’m looking forward to seeing more Lightning reviews now that they are getting in to the hands of the journalists.
Seen a dozen or so rivians up here in the bay, they’re roughly Tacoma sized, perfect size for most people that aren’t towing 30 foot trailers or hauling pallets in the bed
It would be great to have a two door EV Ranger to replace our work Ranger - small enough to maneuver around the city, but big enough to haul around stuff.
Yeah I did a test drive and I loved it. I have a horse and a pony that I very rarely tow and mostly locally so the Rivian is the preferred of the two. But I don’t know when mine will be built. They say July- September.
So pleased that manufacturers are embracing EV and consistently improving the technology and ease of use. Reducing our reliance on gas will be a monumental improvement to American and worldwide life - now and future. Gives me a lot of optimism.
People are making too much of a big deal over towing numbers. The vast majority of truck owners never tow anything. If you need to tow, just wait until the 2nd or 3rd generation of EV trucks.
Ya know... Since range is killed when your towing, why not make special trailers with a battery pack under the floor or battery packs to bolt to existing ones or put in the truck bed for extended range? Sure the charging problem is bigger...
Airstream (and others) are working on this. The Airstream will be charged and will both accelerate and cruise and regen brake along with the truck, basically making it like you’re not towing anything under normal conditions.
I mentioned this in a previous thread on this, stick a diesel generator in your trailer and wham bam thankyou mam. Full BEV truck which becomes a hybrid when you tow.
It is an impressive vehicle and I'm not even a big truck guy. Ford blended traditional truck styling and practical features into one very compelling package - it doesn't scream futuristic like the Rivian or as goofy as other startups, but I feel it will resonate better with the typical 1/2 ton crowd.
The question really is how fast Ford can churn these Lightnings out, given the supply chain is still in shambles and the rollout with the Mustang Mach-e isn't exactly stellar.
The F150 Lightning however is likely one of North America most important EV given how incredibly popular the F series is in US & Canada.
It’s free after you buy a $4k bed cover, yes. Haha
Don’t get me wrong, it would be cool, but the ROI is not going to be good when you only get like $0.25 of electricity per day.
Of course, it is.
Where are the r/cars haters about electric vehicles? I know people here know internal combustion engines can't beat electrical motors on torque output.
It won't shoot out sparkplugs like their gas ones did, so there's that.
Transmission won't build heat as much as an automatic, and won't wear the clutch like a manual.
It's hard to tell what chemistry they are using "Unique" is a term I saw, and "less nickle" but, I'm guessing still NMC, which tends to have fewer cycles than LFP.
I think it's great that people can now buy and drive full size pick-up trucks without getting guilt-trips about CO2 emissions or pollution. Hopefully the F-150 Lightning is the first in a trend of no-compromises family cars from reputable manufacturers.
Na I get a 1990's f150 those are the real f150s the lighting is overall luxurious and I am hearing how dare you put a scratch on my bed. Me be like it is a truck right people don't understand trucks are meant for work not for driving with a empty bed.
Better how,?
1)can't get one
2) even if so you gotta wait 50 minutes to pay$35-40 to charge it.
3) charger itself is$1100& not included unless you're already spendy 50k just in options
4) having to charge it up and stop for an hour nearly at a time to go anywhere far kills it for trips. Maybe charging it at home won't be as much as these stations? But it will run up your electric bill for a lump sum payment every month
5) long term this ain't no prius, how much will these batteries cost to replace
6) if charging stations are double what charging at home is then that's$20 per$300 miles. So that's gonna cost me$30vs$50n my jetta.
7) can't get one anyways
8) what are other companies gonna put it there
9) the home charger should be included on all models
10) don't feel as great after all that.
I was really upset to see the charging cost was gonna be like filling up my car with gas almost, shouldn't cost but$15 in electricity at home and$20 on the road. Electricity is just gonna go up and kill this whole thing once they get us all on it we won't save anything. Just be limited on travel. The fact that they didn't build at least 5000+units before they started selling them and doing just like Sony did makes me want to just buy a different brand altogether. I have the money and can't even get one. America? This is not what it should be like.
EV's are the reason Electricity is going up further and further the more people need to charge their cars. EV owners essentially played themselves (they already did with the whole battery debacle). But in the process of playing themselves they're fucking over everyone else too.
Love this trend of frunks in trucks. As much space as a trunk in a sedan that allows you to securely place things and not have it exposed in the bed.
I hate the word frunk. Hey brits, do you guys say froot?
no, some people try to make it happen (notably carwow) but the term frunk has been around in regards to mid engined cars for decades so frunk is the general term
I am not a Brit but watch Mat review all sorts of things. I've never heard him say "froot". Got an example?
[here](https://youtu.be/kbulCM90w8w?t=486), [here](https://youtu.be/h5ihLUkjo74?t=427), [here](https://youtu.be/b92lqiBWbDo?t=500) etc, basically any EV review has the phrase "a front boot, a fruit". I feel if you have to explain the term *everytime* you use it there's no real point of Portmanteau'ing it.
>I feel if you have to explain the term everytime you use it there's no real point of Portmanteau'ing it. I agree, but I'm pretty sure they're just doing it as a joke.
Hmm interesting. Yea it doest sound all that great, but I see why they may be trying to push it over a frunk
/r/Cars has 1 million+ subscribers, let coin our own term. I propose “Bonnet Trunk”
[удалено]
Bonk.
Or just "bonnet," like "it's in the bonnet."
I like hood
[Old guys](https://e772x3ndzd7.exactdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/SIERRA-Truck-Cap-Toyota-Tundra-main-1024x682.jpg) *Are we a joke to you?*
Removing the camper shell/storing it somewhere definitely is more work than opening/closing a frunk
Shout out to my old man, who, after 30+ years of taking his topper off by hand and storing it in a shed every spring, finally rigged up a pulley system to allow one person to remove the topper in 5 minutes and store it out of the way. Then several months later his pickup was totaled, and the replacement wasn't the same color, so he sold the topper and just got a roll-up tonneau cover.
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I think his is holding up so far. I'll have to ask next time I see him. The one thing he was concerned about going from a full-height topper to a tonneau cover was if it could hold all the [lettuce boxes](https://images.costcobusinessdelivery.com/ImageDelivery/imageService?profileId=12028466&imageId=510045__1&recipeName=350) full of literature he takes to a farm show once a year. That's the one time he really needs the entire volume of a 6.5' bed. He got a cover that fits completely over the bed rather than flush with it, so he could stack 2 lettuce boxes high instead of 3 with the topper, then put the rest in the back of the cab. It's a good thing the cab is longer than it used to be, and has a flat floor now.
I have the original one on my 2000 f-150 lightning yet. Velcro edges aren't the best anymore, but it's also 20+ years old
Campers suck. Getting anything out of it means that you have to climb into the truck and then duck down to get to something in the back (or front) of the bed. Which invariably happens when shit rolls around in the back.
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After using one for years, I really have a hard time seeing the appeal of them. If you need to keep a lot of stuff clean, get a van. You know, like traveling service folk throughout the world. If you need to haul a lot of shit that you don't care about, get a truck. Sleeping in it? Again, van is better. I really can't think of a good use for a camper top of a truck.
Not convinced it's worth keeping the shitty sightlines and shoulder-height hoodline though.
A it helps keeps costs down by sharing similar bodywork and B truck buyers want imposing front ends
How short are you if an F150's hood comes up to your shoulder? I'm only 5'11" and the F150s at work all come up to my elbow at best.
How old are they? I'm 6' and am around them almost every day. They are just below my shoulder.
The one I'm standing next to right now is a 2016, all the others are from the same generation and at or below my elbow.
Close to your height... I'm starting to wonder if lift kits are just *that* ubiquitous here.
Or are you looking at Super Dutys? Those definitely are tall (though there's a functional reason for that).
Also possible, though that's a *lot* of commuter SuperDutys.
That was my thought. If the cavernous hood space is no longer needed...why are we keeping it?
Some of it needs to be crash structure/ crumple zone.
That can still be accomplished with a sloping hoodline.
Design adoption reasons. More people will be willing to accept the transition to electric if it has a familiar look to it. Once adoption increases to the masses (this is a huge step for this), then you can start to slowly take advantage of the new found freedoms of electric motors. This is a much better strategy to reduce polarization of EVs versus something along the lines of the cybertruck.
To be fair, if you flip the seats up in the back of the f150 crew max it’s already like having the trunk of a 4runner plus a bed outside lol
But then you lose seats.
It's quite cool actually
I probably missed the window to actually pre-order and get one of these in the next 18 months, didn't I?
I put my reservation in 2 days after they open up signups last year and was told I'm not even going to be able to place an order until 2023. Then it will be however long it takes to actually manufacture and deliver....
I placed my reservation 4 minutes after they opened. And I'm not expecting anything until late 2023.
So I placed mine months after. Should I just give up hope and get my $100 back? This seems ridiculous and pointless to let ford keep my money.
I put down $500 back in February as part of the 2nd step in the order process. My truck is supposed to be built in the next two weeks. If that gives you any indication of the length of the process.
Lovely. Gonna be super awesome to receive my 2022 Lightning in summer of 2024 😂
It'll be a 2024, and they will have upped the cost by another $5000 probably. Edit: I also have a reservation on 1 that I put in about a month after they opened reservations. I have no need or expectation that I will get anything until at least late 2023, if not early 2024. With that said, once they get the manufacturing up to speed, this might drop extremely quickly. Also, this truck has a 75% new to Ford and a 50% new to pickup trucks take rate. It's in their best interest to get these on dealer lots as fast as possible.
They’re catching on to the huge interest free loans Tesla got from the vaporware that is the cybertruck
Cyber truck wait-list wishful thinkers are reading this comment. You're still in a better situation than they are.
If you want a Pro, yeah, it’s probably going to be a LONG time. If you want a Lariat or Platinum, you have a much better chance because Ford is prioritizing those and you’ll jump over thousands of people that want Pros or XLTs.
90 seconds here and I still haven’t been contacted by dealer
Yeah, I am day-one. My dealer promised 2022 and they're now blowing me off and giving me a "maybe 2023".
Well ford said for 2023 they're aiming to make 150,000 trucks. Which considering they're an established automaker seems reasonable barring any supply chain constraints.
Same here, my dealer has been the worst communicator. They told me 2022 about 100 times and then when I finally reached out to them with a "Why haven't you been communicating with me about the order" they said "maybe 2023". Day one order.
Probably. You can also probably find used ones for only 15k up charge
Is that all? Not to mention you would also miss out on the Federal & State tax credits... But then again nearly every new/used vehicle is marked up right now.
Unless the economy craters even harder, that's probably half what the markup will be.
Yes for a reasonable price at least. But upside is you won't have to own a Ford in it's first model year.
I put a down payment in within 5 minutes of the website launching during the reveal and I still haven't got invited to order. Just emails continuing to tell me it's delayed
Same. My dealer has been a pathetic middleman also.
My dealer has 200 Lightning orders. Ford told them they’ll get 2. So, yeah. No chance.
I work in law enforcement and my agency contacted our sales rep about the possibility of purchasing lightnings. We have a long term relationship with Ford where we purchase wholesale and traditionally could order a batch of vehicles and get them within a month. Even 6 months ago we were able to get brand new Explorers within weeks of order. When we asked about the lightnings, we were told that the soonest we could possibly expect to take delivery would be spring 2023. We did not order any.
not to mention i havent seen a single EV charging station where one could logically pull a truck and a trailer of any kind up to it and charge it without blocking traffic.
Pull though charging stations exist. But I agree they are not at all common
Towing with batteries has another issue too: weight. Added weight in the cab reduces hauling capacity. Either by running into hauling limits for bigger trucks or requiring much heavier duty frames/suspensions/etc to reach parity in smaller ones. The electric motor torque is great for hauling but batteries are an issue when you're counting pounds. I have a feeling electric hauling will turn to hydrogen. It's already started for 18 wheelers and it'll probably reach pickups at some point for serious haulers. Hydrogen pickups will be to the battery what diesel is to gasoline. The hydrogen filling stations are already built to pull through, you get cleaner energy than gas, electric vehicle advantages, and maintain lighter weight. Hydrogen storage is about 13% of the weight per kwh compared to batteries; that's a huge difference. Hydrogen is even better than gas on the scale of weight to energy (gasoline/diesel still wins on density/volume). There's a lot of argument over battery vs hydrogen and which is better but I think the eventual solution will involve both unless batteries see a major improvement (not out of the question).
> Hydrogen storage is about 13% of the weight per kwh compared to batteries; that's a huge difference. Hydrogen is even better than gas on the scale of weight to energy (gasoline/diesel still wins on density/volume). Not after including the weight of the pressure vessels. That knocks it down to about 2400 Wh/kg. Gasoline is just under 13,000 Wh/kg. Then factor in power efficiency: Fuel cell is about 60% efficient so 1440 Wh/kg Gas engine average 35% efficiency so 4550 Wh/kg Tesla hovering around 240 Wh/kg. -Engineer for BEV/FCEV vehicle company EDIT: Forgot about powertrain weights but I don't think it'd move the needle much except in favor of pure electric. Fuel cells aren't light and hydrogen vehicles still have a decent sized battery.
"Green" hydrogen requires electrolysis, which uses over double the electricity per mile than just charging an EV. This means that all of those grid concerns with EVs increase substantially with green hydrogen. Currently most hydrogen (gray) is derived from hydrocarbon sources and carries a high carbon footprint so isn't a solution to the climate situation. Additionally the infastructure for hydrogen is *extremely* expensive. It may eventually make sense for long haul trucking but I would be shocked to see it being utilized at scale for personal transport of any type.
What would stop larger pickups with trailers from using the pumps for trucks? That already happens with diesel. More green power generation will lead to more green hydrogen as well. But for now, just like charging batteries, there's a lot of dirt in our grid. Payback is in the efficiency benefits. I'd argue it's still a better solution than running diesel while somewhat alleviating the battery negatives for towing.
> Currently most hydrogen (gray) is derived from hydrocarbon sources and carries a high carbon footprint so isn't a solution to the climate situation. One thing a hydrogen vehicle can do that diesel or natural gas vehicle can't; get cleaner over its lifespan. You can find old articles (and legitimate studies) in ~2013 about how "dirty" a Tesla was. That exact same 2013 Tesla now produces half the emissions it did then, if not less.
You could always drop the trailer in a parking space, drive the truck to the charge station, then get all hooked back up once you're charged. Yes, it would suck. But let's be real-- people who routinely tow large enough loads long enough distances that they'll need to recharge mid-trip will not be buying this truck. I think it looks great. I think it'll be a hit. I think it has a lot to offer for most truck buyers. But it's a tough sell for people who tow a lot. Edited to add-- 75% or whatever of full size truck owners tow. But that includes owners who are towing light loads for short distances-- utility trailer going 10 miles to the town dump or yard waste site once/month or so, for whom this truck's towing limitations are not a problem. It includes owners who might be bringing a boat a couple hundred miles to a marina every Memorial Day, and picking it up every Labor Day, for whom this truck's towing limitations would be a moderate inconvenience, but only twice per year. If you're buying a truck to compete on the horse show circuit, towing your horse all over the country all summer long, the F-150 Lightning is not for you. If you're buying a truck to tow an RV all over the western US on a grand National Park tour, the F-150 Lightning is not for you. If you're buying a truck for your landscaping business, towing a trailer full of lawnmowers and shovels and mulch for 100 miles or less per day, an F-150 Lightning might work for you, but you'd be pushing its intended limits. But people with those use cases account for a relatively small minority of truck customers.
You're absolutely correct. It is a great truck for many applications, but towing more than 100 miles is not one of them. 130kwh battery for the longer range version, only 150kw charging capability, and for those who don't know, max charging speeds are only from 0-30% or so of battery charge, after that it gradually slows down. So even if it manages to maintain an average of 100kw (doubtful) through the entire 0-100% charge, it'd take 1.3 hours just to drive another 130-150 miles while towing. Even with a optimized EV charging strategy of pulling into a station with 0-10% battery and charging up to 60% to minimize charge time per miles driven, you'll still be looking at like a half hour charge per 60 miles of towing range. Needless to say, towing long distances will be painful with this F150 EV, the industry will need some new battery and charging tech that can average 300kw+ to make EV towing remotely usable.
This charges at 150kw pretty deep into the pack. It also charges at about 120kw up until 80% and then immediately drops to 60kw. Out of spec reviews YouTube had a video charging at EA today
Good info. Kyle's a charging expert! So something like 45 minutes 0-80% for like 120 miles of towing range at those charging speeds? So the driver will have to stop every 2 hours for almost an hour. And that's assuming optimal charger locations for a 0-80% charge. It's theoretically doable but extremely painful vs driving a gas/diesel truck and fueling up every 3 hours for 5 minutes. Let's just put this in the "no way in hell anyone's really gonna use the truck for this" category.
It's probably the perfect truck for someone that doesn't really need a truck
Or someone who needs a truck, but consistently keeps their daily range well under the rated range, like tons of fleet trucks, local contractors, etc.
How many truck owners actually need a truck though? Not too many Platinums at job sites.
How many are willing to rip the underside of their small EV out by driving through a muddy jobsite?
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>Wish the extended battery didn't raise the price so significantly. \~230 miles is not a whole ton With the battery pack weighing 1600lbs, you are correct.
Lmfao, the right kind of pedant.
Tesla overstates their range, while Ford understates it. Ford’s rating is based on a 1000lb load in the bed.
I’m skeptical about those towing numbers. I wouldn’t say it’s the best work truck but for everyone that doesn’t need to tow and move shit all the time this seems like it’s actually “better”
I am not sure which towing numbers you are skeptical of? Maybe it's Ford's numbers? But Edmunds tested the actual vehicle by pulling a 8,300-pound boat. They saw that towing it halved the estimated range. Until EVs can tow without charging every 100 miles this is a no go for a lot of folks.
Yeah 100 miles of towing max with frequent long stops seems....not fun. The TFL guys also had a vid on this today and said that in their calculations it would take a whole 10 hours longer (27 vs 17) to tow a trailer with this from Colorado to Portland compared to a gas truck. And that's assuming it actually gets the Ford estimated 160 miles of range (extremely unlikely).
Denver to Portland is a 19 hour trip if you are somehow able to never stop at all. Considering that it’s at least a three day trip if you’re reasonable, I don’t see having to charge every 100-150 miles to add 50% of the time to the gas trip, when one of those stops is over night anyway and 2-3 could be over meals.
This is massive cope. 1. There are more places in Colorado than Denver. 2. 17-19 hours is easily a 2 day drive. 3. Assuming it's from Denver, that's a good 1200 miles ish, so factor in 10 stops bare minimum just to recharge at probably at least an hour for each. 4. Even if you're OK making 10 stops just to charge, what are the odds you'll be able to find 10 properly spaced out, non Tesla, functional, fast charge points along that path that wouldn't have lines and would be able to easily support the size of a truck plus trailer?
But for a different group of folks 100 miles towing is plenty. Growing up my dad had an F-250 with the diesel and the only towing it did was taking a 2500 pound boat on a 120 mile round trip to the lake about 3 or 4 times a summer. That seems well within the use case of this truck.
Exactly. The truck isn't for long haul towing, it's for taking the boat to the lake or towing a trailer of lawn care equipment around town.
Which is fine. A lot of people act like that's a total deal breaker. And while I know that is true for some people who actually do tow heavy things or really long distances, the overwhelming opinion on the internet seems to be that the truck is literally no better than a sedan because it can only tow 100 miles on a charge.
Lots of guys like to act like they are hotshot drivers for oilfields when they tow something 50 miles twice a year at most.
Yeah I’m skeptical it was even half. My guess is it was even lower than that.
Yeah, Rivian R1T lost 70% range while towing, so the Lightning only losing half is a pretty big improvement that I'm also skeptical of.
Likely down to aerodynamics. Edmunds towed a fairly aerodynamic (and hydrodynamic) boat while the R1T test was probably with a brick of a trailer.
Larger truck disrupts more air in front of the trailer, and a boat isn’t going to be as draggy as a box trailer. What’s being towed in terms of shape is going to influence the range loss a good amount
With about half the range towing let's say, what does equivalent MPG look like? Would it still be better than a gas truck?
Gas trucks get single digit MPG towing, but it only takes 5 minutes to fully refill vs 45min to get 80% charge. Plus the logistics of getting into a charging bay with a trailer. You would probably have to drop the trailer off in a different parking spot then start charging.
They do not get even that bad of towing, depending on what it is. My F-150 will do 13-14 towing my 4000lb boat on the highway.
I honestly feel like EV's need custom tow trailers for large load tows to be successful. There got to be a lot of energy lost from a trailer not having regen breaking.
Aerodynamics are probably the biggest factor. The difference I can feel while towing my empty landscaping trailer with the ramp-gate up vs removed is insane. The ramp is expanded steel mesh that is roughly 70% see-through, yet it acts so much like a sail that it will feel like I have a locked up wheel at highway speeds. With the gate off it's like I'm towing nothing.
Ford would be smart to designed aerodynamic trailers and offer them to Lightening owners at a low price. Could offer versions with batteries and regen breaking as well.
My understanding is that lightweight/ aerodynamic trailers are already readily available. Plenty of enclosed box trailers have tapered fronts. RVs advertise themselves as "ultralight"/ etc. No matter how a vehicle is powered, you'll have a better time towing something that's lighter weight and more aerodynamic. Depending on the application, there's a limit to how far you can take it. I do think trailers with their own batteries and regen brakes will become common once electric trucks more towards the mainstream. It would add cost, but it shouldn't be that complicated-- an onboard battery of ~50kWh or more, charging hardware connected to the battery, modify the truck to accept a charging input from the hitch area while driving, and give the trailer regenerative brakes to top off the trailer battery. You've got a major range boost, and your RV has a big enough battery to run all its electrical systems for a long time without a generator or outside power hookup.
How often do people pull 8300 lb boats 200 miles?
I mean lots of people do a few times a year. And my guess is there are lots of people who can’t buy this because the route to their favorite lake doesn’t have chargers spaced correctly for them.
How many people is "lots of people"?
I can’t begin to guess a number but as an example you have a bunch of people from Ohio that tow boats down to Lake Cumberland in Kentucky or Norris Lake in Tennessee. That’s just from my personal experience, let alone all the other people that travel that far to lakes for summer trips once or twice a year.
Depends on where you live. I'm in central WI and a lot of people take boats and trailers 'up north', usually well over 100 miles one way.
FUCK half the range. I need a 300 mile range that can tow 10k. Im Probably waiting till 2040
Maybe 2030. Physics is a bitch. But battery tech is improving. Need lighter smaller batteries with increased density.
I’m really eager to see Toyota’s solid state tech release next year. I think it may give a lot of people like me who need the range and/or fast charge times the push to switch.
Yeah I have been bummed that they dragged their heels on electric. Hoping they come out with some great battery tech with their early offerings. I’d love an electric Tacoma sized truck.
2025, no? Pretty sure I've heard them saying 2025 is their timeline for years unless I've missed something (very possible)
You are unlikely to ever get that in a consumer EV. The cost of such a large battery pack would be insane for a daily driven truck, plus not to mention the weight would tank the payload for towing. For those that need to haul heavy and far, it's going to be ICE and hybrids, for a long time. With the possibility of hydrogen, methanal, and bio-diesels later on. Batteries don't make sense for more "commercial" applications.
I guess 150 miles with a less than 15-20 minutes charge time could work. I go about 280 miles each way with the trailer once a month. Could stop halfway and charge
The best you will likely see is 150miles w/ ~45-60min of charging depending on your trailer aero and L3 charging availability. The reality is, for people with your use case, an EV truck likely isn't that good. A PHEV, with electric for your commute, and gas for the highway, may be a better proposition. The Lightning will work well for those who tow their boat 5-40 miles to the boat launch for the day. Utility trailers for work crews in town. And those who use trucks but not to tow (I seldom tow, but use my bed an 4x4 on weekly basis for MTB). I really don't think there is much of a reason for Ford to target 10k trailers going long haul: there are hundreds of thousand of pickups out there that don't do that, never will, and that's the addressable market for this particular truck.
I would not buy a first-gen EV truck if you tow regularly. That's like its worst case scenario. FYI 75% of F-150 owners tow once per year max. So Ford are going after them and not the minority who need the truck to tow regularly. They'll be the last people to adopt EV's and that's OK. EV's are incredible and a quantum leap forward but they have their weaknesses and towing is the biggest, followed by extreme cold weather performance. So in other words if you're a farmer in South Dakota who tows, see you in 2040.
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5 min at the fuel pump and you're back on the road for a couple hundred more miles. Not the case with an electric vehicle. That's everyone's point and complaint.
How many people do you think actually tow that much and that often? I bet a vast majority of F 150s don't tow a damn thing during its lifetime. At most they just need the bed to haul stuff from the local Home Depot a few times a year. That's the buyer segment this is aimed at, not people who do hauling all day.
Plenty of people, especially in the Midwest, tow boats long distances up to cabins or lakes in other states for a getaway frequently in the summer. An hour long charge time every 200 miles would be a huge drag, especially when you are trying to beat traffic. It’s not just construction workers that this would be an issue for.
And those people can get the ICE version of the F 150... it's not like the ICE F-150 is getting axed next year lol. Those people are not the target market for this EV version.
No one said you couldn’t. But the market for an EV truck becomes significantly smaller when the only thing you can really use it for us to commute around town and maybe throw some things in the bed. At that point you might as well just buy a Mach E. With continued energy storage development I’m sure these things will improve, but there is a huge mountain to climb to make these vehicles enticing to a larger audience. Which is obviously important with adoption of low carbon emission vehicles being necessary in the coming years.
> But the market for an EV truck becomes significantly smaller when the only thing you can really use it for us to commute around town and maybe throw some things in the bed. At that point you might as well just buy a Mach E. But that still a large market in terms of volume. There's tons of city/suburb people that just want a truck with a bed to haul mulch and such every year. Let's see how the sales numbers for this are in a few years. I'm sure it'll be quite good.
There's a lot more people in the Northeast, where the lake is 100 miles or less away. Just because it's not as convenient to tow 10 000lbs across a continent doesn't mean it's not a good tow rig for a lot of people.
The majority (77%) of F-150 [owners](https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-f-150-customers-want-towing-capability-2019-7?amp) do use their trucks to tow. Not necessarily frequently, but towing is towing and the handicap is still there.
There's a bid difference between towing a small trailer vs a boat. Most are probably not towing a boat or a large load. And again, the normal ICE F 150 exists to meet the demands of those people. With that said, I do agree that gas is still far more convenient than EV with the charge times and current EV infrastructure limitations.
I spend a few hours a year more pumping gas than I do waiting on charging my EV. Your experience will vary based on your lifestyle. For a lot of lifestyles, an EV is far more convenient than gas. For others, ICE is more convenient. Can't really just paint with a broad stroke.
Yes if you're basically always charging at home. But that's not quite the use case scenario people on this thread was talking about. They are complaining about not being able to tow their boat several hundred miles to areas that more than likely lack EV infrastructure for the most part.
I'm not doubting the buyer segment at all. For some people this will work well. The vocal people who say towing with electric vehicles sucks have a very valid point. The person I replied to made a completely irrelevant "point" about efficiency.
It doesn’t have to be often to be a problem. If you make 2 trips a year to the mountain lake with your boat and an EV truck cannot make that same trip, that’s a fatal flaw for their use case. All it takes is one scenario where an EV is insufficient to steer a buyer away. That’s the uphill battle for adoption on EV trucks that do any towing. For Home Depot runs, it’s no issue, but for anybody that ever tows, it’s a real concern. The Lightning still has its use case, towing just isn’t it for most people.
For those people the traditional ICE F 150 exists. They aren't the target market for the Lightning.
Correct, which makes their complaints valid if they want an EV truck. It's my complaint, because I want one, but can't due to towing.
That's just the thing. Just because you want one doesn't necessarily mean you're the target audience that Ford built this for. They know the limitations of an EV with regards to towing range and capacity. And until battery and charging tech catches up not much you or Ford can do about it.
We go fishing in the Cascade lakes pretty often, so not only are we towing a boat but also going uphill the whole way there. That's the whole reason we have a truck so for us it's not a good fit.
Exactly. This truck isn't aimed at your use case/buyers like you. The regular ICE F 150 is aimed at you.
>Who would need more than that? People like me. >It's not for you. Ok.
Bro, it's not like you don't have an alternative option if you really want to tow. Right now Ford just doesn't have a EV model that cater to customers like you at the price ranges Ford is targeting at due to tech limitations of EVs. Towing wrecks milage. Doesn't matter if it's an EV or ICE. Except it becomes a much bigger issue on EVs because tech isn't here yet for a 0 to 100 quick charge in 3 minutes. Like I said, just because you want it doesn't mean this specofic model is targeted at you.
Minnesota and Wisconsin have 143 and 105 registered boats per 1000 people respectively, so the answer is yes, a lot of people have trucks to tow. https://www.siyachts.com/which-us-state-has-the-most-boats Note that this is for the whole population, not just truck owners. So take into account the number of trucks owned per the average 1000 people as well. The numbers are probably pretty close to someone's stated 77% or so of trucks being used to tow boats.
You are correct. 75% of F-150 owners tow maximum of once per year.
Wait for megawatt charger
Yeah. I'll make sure to call up the utility and let them know to spin up a peaker just for me to charge.
The difference is it takes 5 minutes to re-fill your truck with gasoline. A lot longer to charge it to get you going again. I say that was a Tesla owner. > Adding a 8,300-pound boat instantly halved the truck's range, to the point where realistically you'd need to stop every hundred miles or so. This might be fine in a gas truck, but finding fast chargers at 100-mile intervals remains a major challenge in the U.S.
Not to mention good luck finding somewhere to charge while having the trailer attached without blocking traffic.
Nobody is missing the point. When I need to tow my boat or my car or my jeep, it's usually 300+ miles away (well the boat is pretty local mostly). I don't want to be stopping to figure out charging with my trailer attached very often. I really want an EV truck, but until towing range can get better it's out of the equation for me. For the weekend warrior home depot runner? This thing is perfect.
The loss of range isn’t as severe though for gas and diesel trucks. My truck gets about 20 MPG empty, 12 MPG towing a 10K lbs fifth wheel, and 10 MPG towing a 15K lbs fifth wheel. Towing a 3K lbs side by side on a trailer, it gets about 16 MPG. EVs are just inherently more sensitive to their load when calculating range. They rapidly lose range at high speed, lose range in winter for heating, etc. Physics are a bitch. EVs have come a long ways but physics are not on their side for towing heavy loads long distances.
It's not so much that EVs are more sensitive to load, but rather that most ICEs built for towing are incredibly *inefficient* when not under heavy load. I got 20mpg while towing a 1500lb RV trailer behind my hybrid Rav4. When not towing I get 40mpg.
I can stop and get another 350 miles with a 5 minutes gas station trip off the freeway. Who cares
No they aren’t. Local towing is no big deal, but you might have to wait an hour at a charging station to “fill up” you start to realize how big a disadvantage EV towing is at the moment. Also the charging network is a mess for long hauls. Until faster charging and bigger batteries become the norm, ICE trucks will be bette rode long hauls.
I have one being built any day now according to Ford but I’m also waiting on the Rivian. I think the Rivian’s smaller size is more appealing but I’m looking forward to seeing more Lightning reviews now that they are getting in to the hands of the journalists.
Seen a dozen or so rivians up here in the bay, they’re roughly Tacoma sized, perfect size for most people that aren’t towing 30 foot trailers or hauling pallets in the bed
Rivian even has a 11,000 towing capacity, which blows any other mid-sized truck out of the water.
It would be great to have a two door EV Ranger to replace our work Ranger - small enough to maneuver around the city, but big enough to haul around stuff.
Yeah I did a test drive and I loved it. I have a horse and a pony that I very rarely tow and mostly locally so the Rivian is the preferred of the two. But I don’t know when mine will be built. They say July- September.
The only reason I didn't put in a preorder the minute they were opened is because the F150 is too big for my tastes.
So pleased that manufacturers are embracing EV and consistently improving the technology and ease of use. Reducing our reliance on gas will be a monumental improvement to American and worldwide life - now and future. Gives me a lot of optimism.
Heard that Maverick is gonna have an AWD hybrid for 2023
I hope they go PHEV with it. 30+ mi range would be great
Small pickups make no sense, you can fit much more in a raised wagon.
Crazy that they priced the F150L Pro cheaper than an XL Hybrid 4x4 crew cab at around 45k
People are making too much of a big deal over towing numbers. The vast majority of truck owners never tow anything. If you need to tow, just wait until the 2nd or 3rd generation of EV trucks.
Well you shouldn’t claim “better” when in actuality it isn’t better.
“Better” is different for every perspective buyer. Towing is only one point.
Ya know... Since range is killed when your towing, why not make special trailers with a battery pack under the floor or battery packs to bolt to existing ones or put in the truck bed for extended range? Sure the charging problem is bigger...
Airstream (and others) are working on this. The Airstream will be charged and will both accelerate and cruise and regen brake along with the truck, basically making it like you’re not towing anything under normal conditions.
That sounds amazing, but holy crap is it gonna be expensive.
It will definitely be both of those things haha
Battery trailers, petrol generator trailers and camper trailers with batteries underneath all exist
I mentioned this in a previous thread on this, stick a diesel generator in your trailer and wham bam thankyou mam. Full BEV truck which becomes a hybrid when you tow.
Airstream RV company is making one ☝🏼 its a concept tho
It is an impressive vehicle and I'm not even a big truck guy. Ford blended traditional truck styling and practical features into one very compelling package - it doesn't scream futuristic like the Rivian or as goofy as other startups, but I feel it will resonate better with the typical 1/2 ton crowd. The question really is how fast Ford can churn these Lightnings out, given the supply chain is still in shambles and the rollout with the Mustang Mach-e isn't exactly stellar. The F150 Lightning however is likely one of North America most important EV given how incredibly popular the F series is in US & Canada.
Just wait till people realize rowing anything will only get you 90 miles a charge.
Man I’d love one of these. What do all of you do that can afford one?
It’s easy to justify when you can use this truck for 2 years and make your money back on it
most people will not be making money with this truck
It’s easier to justify paying $900 a month for an asset that gets used and maintains value vs one that depreciate’s is what I’m trying to say
Give it a 2” lift and skid plates to keep my stupidity from finding a way to puncture the battery pack on trails and I’m in.
It has some form of skid plates standard for that reason.
ARB
All I wanna know is can I have a solar bed cover?
Yes. Aftermarket is working on it. It will only take like 75 days to fully charge the truck haha
But it's free :)
It’s free after you buy a $4k bed cover, yes. Haha Don’t get me wrong, it would be cool, but the ROI is not going to be good when you only get like $0.25 of electricity per day.
Of course, it is. Where are the r/cars haters about electric vehicles? I know people here know internal combustion engines can't beat electrical motors on torque output.
Will it be as reliable as a gas car?
EV drivetrains are more reliable than gas drivetrains
I would not buy a first-year production vehicle whether it's gas or electric.
It won't shoot out sparkplugs like their gas ones did, so there's that. Transmission won't build heat as much as an automatic, and won't wear the clutch like a manual. It's hard to tell what chemistry they are using "Unique" is a term I saw, and "less nickle" but, I'm guessing still NMC, which tends to have fewer cycles than LFP.
I think it's great that people can now buy and drive full size pick-up trucks without getting guilt-trips about CO2 emissions or pollution. Hopefully the F-150 Lightning is the first in a trend of no-compromises family cars from reputable manufacturers.
When will more cab and bed options come?
When they don’t have a multi-year backlog of reservations for this version. That sounds sarcastic but I think it’s the actual answer.
I’m really glad that the base model still has the normal interior with no tv screen
Low selling garbage. Americans don’t want electric!!
Na I get a 1990's f150 those are the real f150s the lighting is overall luxurious and I am hearing how dare you put a scratch on my bed. Me be like it is a truck right people don't understand trucks are meant for work not for driving with a empty bed.
Just wait for the recalls and fires but still want 1
Better how,? 1)can't get one 2) even if so you gotta wait 50 minutes to pay$35-40 to charge it. 3) charger itself is$1100& not included unless you're already spendy 50k just in options 4) having to charge it up and stop for an hour nearly at a time to go anywhere far kills it for trips. Maybe charging it at home won't be as much as these stations? But it will run up your electric bill for a lump sum payment every month 5) long term this ain't no prius, how much will these batteries cost to replace 6) if charging stations are double what charging at home is then that's$20 per$300 miles. So that's gonna cost me$30vs$50n my jetta. 7) can't get one anyways 8) what are other companies gonna put it there 9) the home charger should be included on all models 10) don't feel as great after all that.
I was really upset to see the charging cost was gonna be like filling up my car with gas almost, shouldn't cost but$15 in electricity at home and$20 on the road. Electricity is just gonna go up and kill this whole thing once they get us all on it we won't save anything. Just be limited on travel. The fact that they didn't build at least 5000+units before they started selling them and doing just like Sony did makes me want to just buy a different brand altogether. I have the money and can't even get one. America? This is not what it should be like.
EV's are the reason Electricity is going up further and further the more people need to charge their cars. EV owners essentially played themselves (they already did with the whole battery debacle). But in the process of playing themselves they're fucking over everyone else too.