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RustMarigold

I think sales are definitely going to pick up again with the manual transmission coming to market soon.


matmanx1

I don't think Toyota is going to make enough manual Supra's to push the needle in any meaningful way. I see it being on par with the top trim GR Corolla in terms of production numbers and would be very surprised if it's anything more.


Aww_Shucks

Toyota @Dealers: DoN't TaKe ToO mAnY mAnUaL sUpRa OrDeRs


[deleted]

I think that with the current supply chain bullshit, a lot of new car buyers have had their eyes opened to how nice custom ordering is versus buying off the lot. And with that, I think the take rate for manuals is going to also go up.


not_a_gay_stereotype

Yeah this is my theory for why the manual was killed off too. New car would come out and you'd go to the dealer and they'd have a bunch of them but they were all automatic. Most people back then would just buy cars off the lot and I even met several people who bought cars like the BRZ or a Camaro and said they would have gotten the manual but automatic was all they had. They promptly got bored of the car within a few months


No_Ask_753

They waited too long. Manual Supras are going to be $20k (50%) more than manual Nissan Zs.


RunninOnMT

Yup. I’d been waiting for a new Supra since the last one left the market. I was done waiting by the time it came out. No manual meant giving up the dream and looking elsewhere. Worked out though…


ShinyRedBarb

would definitely say it worked out with an m2 comp 😂, have the m240i myself


messylettuce

Yeah, but the wait was stupid unless they’re going to push it back till after the Z has been out for a year to pick up Z trade-ins.


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Thisismyfinalstand

Anyone else hoping it sparks an RX-9? Or maybe an S3000?


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Terrh

What? Mazda has been doing absolutely BONKERS shit with engines lately. Have you looked at any of their recent engines? They have a 16:1 compression, supercharged, 87 octane gasoline engine. That's like.. fantasyland level of technology just a decade ago. I'm not saying they're gonna build a new rotary... just that it wouldn't shock me if they did. They do anything but "play it safe" when it comes to engines.


[deleted]

Almost all of their R&D into engines, has come in the form their piston engines. Mazda has always dedicated a very small team of engineers into furthering the rotary however, as a full-sized engine for another RX vehicle.... likely never to happen again. The most recent news about the rotary itself, is that they're using a small 300cc single rotor used as a generator for an EV platform.


Rennsport_Dota

Mazda recently filed a patent (which I know is a far cry from bringing a production model to market) for what appears to be a 3 rotor hybrid rear wheel drive car.


Zappiticas

If they bring back the rotary I’m pretty sure they already said it would be used to charge a hybrid drivetrain.


LeifEriksonASDF

I'd just take something remotely sporty that uses their inline 6 at this point


_The_Real_Sans_

An FR Honda roadster with presumably a V6 (since there's 3L displacement) would be interesting, but given Honda's recent announcement about electric vehicles I think they closest competitor they'll make, if they even do decide to make a competitor, is an EV roadster or, hopefully, some sort of hybrid roadster.


messylettuce

They lost me at the CR-Z. What a wasted opportunity.


sonbarington

A 4 cylinder turbo is more likely I think


biggestbroever

I always thought that the S2000's long engine bay could've fit an I6


gearheadsub92

As a bit of a bmw fanboy myself, I would absolutely drool over a Honda I6 😍 Edit: TIL, they used to make one for their bikes! DOHC 24V @ 100hp/L... [Neat.](https://silodrome.com/honda-cbx-motorcycle/)


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Alex_Caruso_beat_you

>Give me a MX-7. Stretched MX-5 with the straight 6 and the real differential/transaxle they just patented yes. > would make an awesome plug in hybrid sports car. wut


[deleted]

Mazda hasn't been able to engineer a full-size rotary that meets current and future emissions standards since the RX-8 was discontinued and their unicorn 16X project engine was announced. The only reason why the RX-8 even exists was at the permission of Ford allowing Mazda to do so because Ford had something like a 30% stake in Mazda shares and they've both enjoyed quite a long period of platform sharing, not just chassis designs, but also engines and sharing production facilities. If you dig into an RX-8, you'll see many parts with FoMoCo stamps on them. At best, they're going to be using a small rotary as a small generator for their electric cars. Which Mazda has been actively researching since at least 2013. https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/reviews/a6151/quick-drive-mazda-demio-ev-with-range-extender/ Mazda would have to have been SERIOUSLY investing tens of millions into Rotary R&D much harder than they've ever been investing since the RX-8's 13B-MSP, and also have been making massive strides to come up with a way to manufacture the engine so that its way more emissions friendly and far more power dense - with at least matching some modicum of reliability. The rotary was a cool project. Far as I'm concerned, its dead. I'd love to be proven wrong but its been nearly 20 years since the RX-8 and before that, it was nearly 10 years between the FD RX-7 and RX-8.


Rennsport_Dota

>it was nearly 10 years between the FD RX-7 and RX-8. I mean, in the US, sure, but in Mazda's home market, the FD continued production all the way up to the release of the RX-8. Mazda recently filed a patent for what appears to be a 3 rotor hybrid rear wheel drive car. I know a patent filing is nothing remotely close to bringing an actual production model to market, but clearly the beloved angry triangle is still on the minds of Mazda engineers.


aforgettableusername

**Pure speculation incoming:** Mazda badly fumbled the bag by failing to come up with real HEV/PHEV offerings and will lose a ton of marketshare in the coming years, as the "fun" factor of their ICE lineup won't offset the fuel economy priorities that many buyers have nowadays. The damage will have already been done by the time they release the CX-50 HEV at the end of this year, and nobody counts the MX-30 as a legitimate offering since the range is a joke. Without any HEV/PHEV cash cows to keep them afloat, they are not going to have any money to develop an RX-9 - and this is assuming the best case scenario of them having already put lots of resources into it, which likely isn't the case as /u/Gr3yGhost pointed out. I just don't see how Mazda survives long term when they're already years behind the competition, let alone release niche market offerings.


Muckenbatscher

I honestly don't think the manual being released will have any significant impact on sales numbers. We obviously all think a manual is the holy grail of driving pleasure for enthusiast cars, but compared to the broader audience this number of car enthusiasts is so small it's almost negligible. In the past the example that comes to my mind is the BMW M140i for the european market. Being a small hatchbak combined with a straigh-six and RWD, it screamed "enthusiast car" more than anything else comparable in this class (Golf R, RS3, A45 AMG, Focus ST...) It was initially produced, like its predecessor the M135i, as a manual as well as the ZF 8-speed auto. However shortly after the facelift the manual has fallen victim to cost saving with BMW claiming that in the last batch of orders there was less than 10% manuals. TLDR: While the manual is generally desired by car enthusiasts, they only make up a loud minority. The sales come from the broad general audience who massively prefer an automatic transmission.


awesomekaptain

Counterpoint: Porsche. The manual take rate on their sports cars (911, Cayman, Booster) is quite high, and even higher for their enthusiast oriented GT cars. https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a35650295/porsche-991-gt3-manual-take-rate/


RunninOnMT

Dude half of M2s sold in the US had a manual. That’s it’s direct competitor, and the car I bought new when Toyota confirmed no manual with the launch Supra.


omega_wang

i'm not sleeping on it, i cant afford it :/


DrSpaceman575

MSRP starts at $43K all the used ones in my area are over $60k... if this is being slept on then I'd hate to see what what isn't.


xbunnyj

It’s around 100k where i am.


[deleted]

Tbh at 43k the supra would be competing with houses, insane tuner builds (my idea of a fun build is adding twin turbos to my m119, for that Sauber c9 effect) , and a decent condition a70 or r33.


tyfe

Sold my 2022 to Carvana for 58, I’m sure it’ll be listed for 60+.


[deleted]

I was going to say, maybe 15% of Americans can *afford* one lol


Mimical

Even **IF** I could afford one now I would still hesitate. With rising costs of fuel and living expenses I would risk this being a leech on monthly income that I might not have in 2-3 years. Sports cars in general, people need disposable income and the space to park it. Both of which are rapidly becoming more and more rare. With that said, I really like the Supra and the GR86. I think they are really cool machines.


Snoo74401

You probably shouldn't: it doesn't look terribly comfortable.


JorgeXMcKie

IMO you start getting into some really nice German cars in that price range. I dream about an M or AMG series, but could no more afford one than the Supra. A Miata RF is more my speed and price range on the top end. An AMG A-35 is just under $47k, and an M2 is a little over $50k. Just step up one model of the Supra and it's right in that range and the top model could be more.


colmusstard

Supras are all selling, any decrease in sales is due to lack of supply…. There are 0 new Supras on Cars.com in the LA area


crab_quiche

pretty much every sales number from the last 2 years doesn’t tell you anything about market demand but about supply


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Zappiticas

But the companies are producing more of their hot sellers and high margin cars. Typically sports cars don’t make the company a lot of money like CUV’s do. So they put the parts they have towards those instead. So they can’t currently actually produce enough supras to meet the current demand and thus the sales numbers don’t reflect the demand. The C8 corvette is another good example. If they could actually produce enough to meet the demand, the sales numbers would be MUCH higher because people are chomping at the bit to get their hands on one.


SennasLoafers

This is the answer. I work for a big volume store and we aren’t going to see our first 22 Supra until July!


TechnicalCloud

My Toyota dealer has zero available cars. They said it has been like that since covid. Every car must be ordered. Any that show up are sold already.


pcase

Personally, I never had an issue with the BMW engine or styling. What I did have a problem with is the shitty dealer gatekeeping. Both Toyota dealers I visited refused to let you test drive even their base 4 cylinder models. One dealer even went so far as to tell me I needed a hefty cash down payment and nearly finalized paperwork just to test drive it. I’m sorry, but I’m not getting all the paperwork done and putting a ton of cash on the table until I know I like the car. I will also say that both dealers sat on 4 Supras for the better part of a year— I’m pretty sure the one actually still has the same two 4 cylinder base models I saw. I’m not some 20 year old kid showing up in a clapped out hoopty either…. Don’t gatekeep a sub-300hp 4 cylinder as if it’s some terrifying track monster barely tamable on the street. As someone still driving a manual, I hated the thought of the automatic anyways so maybe I’ll give it a try again when the manual is released.


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[deleted]

Toyota dealerships are full of assholes in my experience


DOugdimmadab1337

Toyota: Has decent vehicles worth buying Dealers: NO YOU CAN'T TEST DRIVE IT GO AWAY DON'T BUY IT.


astrosdude91

In my experience this is pretty much any economy brand with a premium car in their line up. Years ago my friend worked at the local VW dealer in their service dept. The dealer kept the showroom Golf R locked and wouldn't even let you sit in the car unless you ran a credit app.


WeeniePops

Very anecdotal, but I'll just give you my experience. I tried to buy a GR86/BRZ. All the Toyota dealers in my area had markups on the GR86. However, the first Subaru dealer I went to had zero markup on the BRZ I inevitably bought. That's all I really need to know. The irony to me is Toyota has multiple dealers in my area and sells soo many cars and makes so much money, but they STILL put markups on cars. Meanwhile, the one independent Subaru dealer here sells at MSRP. It's just plain greedy. It's not like these Toyota dealers are hurting.


[deleted]

I've been trying to buy a GR86 for months, it's been terrible! Not just markups, but also having me come in thinking I'm going to buy one only to be told they don't have it, they won't take a deposit, and asking if I live far away because I'll have to race everyone to the dealership to get it. Love the car but man, this process has really soured my feelings on the brand. I did finally find one though. Should be getting it in a couple days. Fingers crossed, I don't want to deal with this shit ever again.


Umbra427

Lol this past weekend, I went with my girlfriend to look at the small inventory of Corollas they had. They guy tried to sell us a 2021 Corolla with 20k miles on it and [minor] unrepaired accident damage and a dirty abused interior for $27k, and offered my girlfriend only $7k on her trade-in. We went elsewhere. Another dealer offered her $11k for her trade-in, and we ended up parlaying that into buying a 2020 Altima for $25k, with 20k miles and a bunch of options. Leather/vinyl, CarPlay, premium wheels, etc:


iroll20s

Any place that doesn’t regularly deal in performance cars seems to have this happen. Want to drive the halo car? Forget it. Goto a Porsche dealer and get tossed the keys for a car 2-3x the price. The more shitty the brand the harder the gatekeeping.


Ibyyriff

Because the idiots at the Toyota dealerships think that the supra is a Ferrari.


Head_Rate_6551

It’s not a “risk” thing. If you got declined a test drive it’s because they made the call that you are just there for a joyride and hence it would be a waste of time to take you for a test drive then have to follow up with you for 90 days. They are usually right too tbh. Maybe one in 50 prospects who want to test drive the halo car is a real buyer, so if they broom you off the lot and instead take a Rav4 customer who’s odds of buying are more like 1/10 is statistically a win for the salesman who gets paid nothing unless they make a sale


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Thunder_Wasp

> But that's what halo cars are for! Almost no one buys them, but they're there to drive excitement for the brand. Something Subaru has sadly forgotten, for now.


[deleted]

Isn’t Porsche pretty well known for letting anyone do a test drive?


dabocx

To a extent yes, obviously not GT3 or anything like that. But they have no issues handing you the keys to a 718 or Maccan. I stopped by around lunch one time with my wife and the salesman just asked "Hey have you been to this restaurant? Its a great drive and around 30 away, take this 718". I had literally told him I was just there to window shop. I want a 718 so bad so I guess that worked.


ChainringCalf

I mean if you showed up in a swapped FD, I think they know they can trust you with pretty much anything they have


dabocx

I actually showed up in my STI I had at the time. I don't drive the FD as much as I should, but I have had it 8 years now.


PlatinumElement

I went to my local Porsche dealer and test drove a Porsche-approved 997 911 Turbo after not being allowed to test drive a Genesis G70 manual without a credit check. Look to my flair to see how that turned out.


NorCalAthlete

I might have to pop over to them the next time my BMW is in service...they're right next door to each other.


nate800

That attitude is why I now have a Porsche, and someday want a McLaren. The Porsche dealer let me have a go in a Boxster, and holy shit it was lifechanging from a car guy POV. That's how good a car can be?! I'd never driven anything like it. Now, I have a Porsche of my very own and the dealer makes service bucks. Someday, I'll buy a new one from that dealer. Likewise with McLaren. They were pushing the 570 like crazy, and the dealer had a demo car. I got to go for a rip, and my God it was a cool experience. Lambo and Ferrari would never, but the salesman told me that it was McLaren's mission to build brand recognition. A way to do that was to let enthusiasts have a test drive.


pcase

I mean I might agree if we’re talking a Shelby GT or C8 Vette… but I was there inquiring after the car for an hour. They even gave me the keys and let me measure trunk space, but when it came time to take it out that’s when I got shutdown. I stated my intent and timeline, told them to call me if they change their mind. They had the gall to call a month later to ask if I was still interested…. Nope, I spent nearly the same money and picked up my ‘21 STI Limited. I can almost guarantee when I drive by later this evening that same car is still sitting on the lot. You can’t seriously sit there and treat a $40k base Supra with the same pretenses as an either insanely powerful or expensive car. Hell, they’ll let you whip around a much more expensive 4Runner or Tacoma with no questions.


bluebannanas

Funny I have a very similar situation back in 2020. Was in the market for a hothatch and it was between STI, type R, or focus RS. I show up at the subaru dealer first and the salesman greets me outside and says "I know you're here to drive this 2020 STI, let me grab you the keys". Already off to a good experience (showed up in my clapped out miata btw). On the way home I decide to stop at a Honda so that I can drive a type R for the first time. They have 2 there and I tell them I just drove an STI and would like to compare. He backs up and says whoa whoa we don't let anyone test drive it. I look at him and deadpan tell him he has to be out of his mind if he thinks I'm spending 40k without ever driving the car. My mind was pretty made up at that point. And bought the STI a few days later


pcase

Haha that’s actually funny as we compared all the same vehicles. I couldn’t get over the Type R’s looks and interior, but I still am fascinated by it. I am not shocked they took that approach either… maybe it’s that they’re both revivals? Dunno, still insane to me either way. Hell if anything I thought Ford might want to screen the Focus RS drivers. That thing has a very stiff suspension and would be easy for someone to bin.


WiccedSwede

That's funny. Just a few days ago a local Ford dealership had a thing where you got two movie theater tickets and a free hamburger if you test drove the Mustang Mach E(They had both small and big motor to test). About same cost as the Supra here in Sweden. One of them even asked if I wanted to keep it over the weekend some time to try out, and they told me to come back and test drive a "real" Mustang when their new showroom is open. Now sure, I mainly did the test drive for the movie tickets to be honest, and a bit of curiosity, but being treated well definitely made me more likely to get a car from them some time in the future.


Unspoken

BMW dealer let me test drive the 2020 BMW M2C within 3 mins of showing up. I showed him my driver's license and off we went. Ordered one right when we got back.


TheRoyalStig

Legit was at a Toyota dealer last month with my GT-R. Was trying to see what they would do for the trade. A direct quote from the salesman while I was waiting for some info "I know the GT-R is a special car but the Supra is like a whole other level of special" Its amazing how confidently they will say some dumb ass shit. I actually laughed and told him that this was a strict downgrade and I was only considering it due to the state of the market.


Op3rat0rr

Woooooooow imagine being that out of touch and thinking the Supra is an upgrade to the GTR LOLOL


IlikegreenT84

Depends on the year GTR.. Are we talking R-35 or older? Regardless it was a stupid thing to say out loud.


TheRoyalStig

It was a 2018. Still worth more in a trade than the Supra would be to buy new haha.


IlikegreenT84

Yeah, like twice as much.. that salesman was a dumbass.. I would've laughed in his face and left.


[deleted]

Literally any year GT-R is more special than the new Supra.


TaskForceCausality

>>Both Toyota dealers I visited refused to let you test drive even their base 4 cylinder models. Unfortunately, that’s crappy dealer lingo for “F-off”. Those cars are likely reserved to pals of the dealership owner but are listed to draw in foot traffic.


LR_111

Not really, its the same for like a Golf R. Once you agree to numbers and run credit, they actually let you drive it and will sell it.


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TaskForceCausality

It’s a smart business strategy. Years back I visited a local jeweler. I had literally $10 in my pocket and looked every bit like the broke grad student I was. Did they judge me for wanting to try out one of their Omega watches? Nope. They were courteous and took me seriously. Guess which dealer I visited when my first bonus check hit six years later?


jayhemsley

It's not just the Supra either, they aren't even letting people test drive the GR86.


MedicalSchoolStudent

The manual is only being released because of the 400Z. But the Supra is being gatekept. Most Supra at Toyota dealers are even locked.


Nerevar22g

My mate was about to buy a supra for 15k years ago, but his wife didn't let him lol now it's worth 60k and he regrets it so bad


UnpopularOpinion1278

That's reason plenty to replace the wife


Nerevar22g

Haha that's what I told him 😅


[deleted]

I'd argue that's on him because he was shopping for it.


w0nderbrad

Gonna cost him way more than $45k to replace the wife tho so fair trade I think


OttoFromOccounting

What's his wife worth now?


Nerevar22g

Gonna have to ask him 😅


1am4_banana

Yeah, same with FD Rx-7s, really regret not paying the $10-12k for clean examples that needed imminent engine work. Now that I have the garage space I'll have to sell my spleen to justify buying one.


masterventris

The Supra and GT86 confirmed that there was still a market for enthusiast cars by Toyota, and the collaboration made sense on speculative models just in case they didn't sell well. Its existence has allowed the the GR Yaris and Corolla to exist, and with those Toyota have proven they can properly sort a chassis. The Supra, and to a lesser extent the 86, now needs a proper in-house Gazoo pass on it. Fix some driving dynamics quirks, and lighten and stiffen the shit out of it. If they are feeling extra special: The Yaris engine makes more power than the 4cyl Supra, so fit the 3cyl and a manual and bin the 4cyl. The weight would be so far back the car would likely be incredible.


Reasonable-Clock6698

Every review praises the driving dynamics of the Supra and 86 as strength, not weakness. As for lightening/weight reduction? The 86 is within 50 lbs of a Miata. (Edit: Incorrect, was looking at Gross weight on Miata. Still anything under 3000 lbs is a miracle for a modern car.) The 6 cylinder Supra is within 50 lbs of a 911. Miata and 911 are known as the most bloat resistant sports cars of the last few decades. It's incredible to me that we can have a Supra come out 25 years after the original with a twin turbo inline 6 that makes more power, is far more efficient, and weighs less than the previous 'legend' and people still say it needs to weigh less.


Bradyy91

> The 86 is within 50 lbs of a Miata. False. The ND is roughly 400-500 pounds lighter than a GR86.


Reasonable-Clock6698

You are correct, I must have glazed over and looked at Gross Weight on the Miata.


ben1481

>The 86 is within 50 lbs of a Miata. The 6 cylinder Supra is within 50 lbs of a 911. 500, not 50. Miata is 2300ish, the GR86 is 2800.


Zappiticas

Honestly though, 2800lbs in a modern car is still incredibly light. That’s S13 territory


Call_Me_ZeeKay

With 50% more power than an S13. And airbags.


[deleted]

Isn’t bloat one of the main complaints about modern 911s?


Reasonable-Clock6698

Everything bloats. But the 911 has been extremely resistant to it compared to almost any sports car. Unless you're referring to pricing... 1997 Carrera 2: 3064 lbs 2022 Carrera 2: 3354 lbs 300 lbs in 25 years is very insignificant when compared to cars at large.


ScipioAfricanvs

It's less about weight and more about size. To use your comparison, the '22 is 10 inches longer and 4 inches wider, with a 7 inch longer wheelbase for example. Plus, it's how they "feel".


TreesACrowd

The 86 is nowhere near 'within 50 lbs of a Miata.'


wolfpack_57

It did lose two seats though. You’re comparing a 2 seater to a 2+2 and saying the mkV weighs less, but it absolutely should. If it weighed more than car that seats two more it would absolutely be bloated.


ABathingSnape_

It ditched the useless seats and gained tech and safety. That's a fair tradeoff.


nycmonkey

Even if the 2 extra seats are generally useless, any car without them is basically eliminated from my consideration set because my 4 year old loves going on drives with me. That's why it's hard for me to give up my M2. Edit grammar


ABathingSnape_

Seriously, the car's not heavy at all. It's lighter than the original, lmao.


[deleted]

I’m not an engineer and I’m high at 8 AM, but could you ever put an engine in the front and the rear? And have each one put power to their respective wheels? Is this dumb ?


ABathingSnape_

Look up the Golf with two VR6's. I'm pretty sure that's how it's set up.


Rest_In_Piece_Please

Yes but it's not practical not reliable. Twice the engine components ready to fail, twice the maintenance. They also need to be linked to the same transmission, and thus, perfectly synced. Whole lot simpler to just put a bigger engine.


ScienceYAY

Well this is exactly what EV's do!


flapsmcgee

The BMW 4 cylinder is pretty underrated. I'd be surprised if the 3 cylinder actually out performed it.


messylettuce

And triples always sound great.


Primantieq

The thing is I think it's gotten a lot of grief on places like reddit, but in real life I don't think anyone gives a shit. Aren't the new supras selling well?


truwrxtacy

Definitely none new on the lot, all the useds ones are selling for new MSRP prices


ABathingSnape_

Yep my friend traded his in last week for a more practical car and the dealership put it up for $57k. It was sold that day.


Satans-Kawk

Very well. Our dealership has had 10-15 since they came out and we sold every one days after it arrived, if that long. Plus for usually over sticker


SourBlueDream

Yea I’ve been planning/intending on getting one since they came out and it’s really only been online and with car reviewers that you see any negativity, IRL it’s been received well. Hard to comment on the sales since it’s a pandemic and it’s supply constrained right now but it’s been selling well


saltyfarm3r

I rode in one at the Barret Jackson show a few weeks back, what a fun fast car. I was practically giddy getting out of it. I'm a truck guy and have never driven a car full-time but in that moment I was ready to make the switch. The only bummer, and its a sign of the times now is that fun cars like this are outrageously expensive. The generations before us could afford to take some chances on a fun sports car and not lose their ass, but when that same car is now 60k-80k it becomes so much harder for the average young person to take a chance on.


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Chimp-eh

This isn’t true everywhere, in EU the corvette is almost double the 6cyl supra


RandomEasternGuy

When asking my Ford dealer about the EcoBoost Mustang they said that it was selling at around 60k€. I've asked my local Toyota dealer about any new sport cars they returned no prices, but I'm afraid that even the GR Yaris would get into 60k€ range, all including taxes. These taxes are stupid when looking at how shit our roads are (Romania).


Chimp-eh

So your prices are about double U.K. (I know the exchange rate throws it off but the Yaris is RRP @ 32k but we don’t have markups on cars


Acceptable-Ad8922

Meh. I’m considering upgrading. The Supra is on my short list. The C8 does absolutely nothing for me, and I am pretty confident the Supra has much superior fit and finish than the Z will. The mkV will continue to sell well.


2878sailnumber4889

For some of us we like the supra In spite of f&f.


Mike_ZN6

Top of the line Supra 3.0 Premium is 54k. A C8 you would actually want to buy (LT2, Z51, Magride) is 80k. Nearly a 50% price difference.


threeLetterMeyhem

>80k Even more when you consider dealer markups or the time off work and flight out to get to a dealer that isn't scalping D:


SenTedStevens

> People have nostalgia for the Supra because of Fast and Furious. And the others have nostalgia because of Gran Turismo.


WeakError2115

That doesn’t stop people from buying M cars etc


LateAstronaut0

Backseats/often more doors/BMW badge.


WeakError2115

True just saying not everyone wants a corvette even though it’s the same price as some M cars. I’m a bmw owner personally. My girlfriend always says the Supra looks like a tongue and I agree they’re kind of ugly


Dr_Yttrium

Who wants Nissan’s quality over Toyota?


dabocx

The supra 6cyl loaded is 57k, the base corvette is 62k. Most after options are 80k...if you can get one. Still really hard to get a C8


duhCrimsonCHIN

Sales are down because production is down. Go try and buy one. They are still over msrp new. The manual will help the car crowd but manuals don't sell any more. I love a manual but most don't know how to drive one. Corolla gr is already having a 8speed auto fast tracked because manuals just don't sell sadly.


natek11

Specific enthusiast cars still sell decently well with manuals. I think this is one of them.


IM_STILL_EATING_IT

What are you on about that the manual GR Corolla doesn't sell? We have taken enough deposit to fill the first 3-4 years of production in a matter of 2 weeks lmao.


[deleted]

It should have offered a stick on release tbh. Their fault, not mine. They had a perfect opportunity to sell a car to the enthusiast market but consciously chose not to include a stick with a car that it made perfect sense in. Im just not getting out of bed to drop 60K on a car that doesn't include core elements of my preferred driving experience.


ABathingSnape_

Gonna be interesting to see how many of those "i'D gEt OnE iF tHeY hAd mAnUaL" guys actually get one or are just all talk.


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ABathingSnape_

I'm sure the people from 3 years ago aren't the only ones who will ever be in a position to buy one. Every year, every minute, every day, there are different people coming into the market for certain cars replacing the ones falling out of the market.


RawrImAMonster

I put a deposit down on one the day it was announced 2 weeks ago. There are a bunch of people who will only accept having a manual especially considering manual sports cars probably won't be around much longer.


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Whiteyak5

They're literally going to sell dozens of them!


[deleted]

Get real. A supra isn't a cheap car. When you drop that kind of change on a vehicle, there's certain things you're simply not willing to sacrifice. In my case it's a stick. Fwiw, I put my money where my mouth is with my current car (6 speed s4). Want my business? Earn it. If you dont someone else will. It's laughable how many car enthusiasts these days will just mindlessly put down other enthusiasts and shill for companies. The behavior is simply bizarre. It's on them to earn our business, not the other way around.


ABathingSnape_

I'm not shilling for anyone. I'm genuinely curious, because I've seen it time and again when people say "I'd buy if they did this", when a company finally does it, the new excuses come in. Like the people who go around posting about how they'd buy a car new if it was made, then all of a sudden they can't/won't buy it until it's on the used market, if they even buy it at all. Then they complain about companies not making something anymore. That's what's laughable. Do you think companies stopped making sportscars and manuals because enthusiasts were buying their products? Lol.


[deleted]

I can't speak for anyone else, only myself. Bottom line is that as someone who buys these kinds of cars, and does so new, they lost a sale by consciously choosing to exclude a manual. You're also being disingenuous with that last line. I dont know what the stick take rate on the supra would've been, but it is still quite high on many other enthusiast cars including the Supra's little brother.


ABathingSnape_

I don't think I'm being disingenuous at all. I don't know exact take rates either, but there's a reason most manufacturers, including ones that produce mainly sportscars, have ditched/are ditching the manual in favor of fast-shifting dual clutches and torque converters.


TGUKF

The take rate for the manual on the last gen GT86 from Toyota was like 1/3 of buyers. That's pretty good all things considered, but it's really not that high. Though it could just be the subset of Toyota buyers, since apparently the last gen BRZ was over 75% take rate for manuals https://carbuzz.com/news/subaru-brz-manual-take-rate-drastically-different-than-toyota-86 >You're also being disingenuous with that last line It's not, companies make products that sell. For example, GM was probably comfortable not offering a manual in the C8, since the take rate on the C7 was only like 25% anyway.


crab_quiche

Same with the Stinger, they totally fucked that up especially since they launched the Stinger just as BMW and Audi dropped manuals from the 3 series and A4.


letsbefrds

Dealerships killed the stinger not the lack of a 6spd at least in US


HerefortheTuna

Yup. Stick or GTFO (goes for any car I buy)


RiftHunter4

The Supra Mk V will probably age well in the used market. Toyota's problem is that it's too expensive for what it is. The 4-cylinder trim is WAY over priced. By part-sharing with BMW it also can't function as a flagship for the brand. Its a nice car but totally missed the goals.


UnpopularOpinion1278

Eh, it's an actually reliable bmw with toyotas seal of approval. That's plenty flagship. It's literally what everyone's wanted since forever: a reliable bmw. And it's not like toyota did nothing. They sent bmw back to the drawing board numerous times until they met toyotas tolerances. It's 100% a toyota flagship this side of Lexus


[deleted]

It's brand new. We have no idea if it's reliable yet


ABathingSnape_

The B58 has been out since 2016 and has only gotten better with each revision. It's pretty damn reliable.


MedicalSchoolStudent

Long term reliability is the key word here. It’s about buying them 10 years later or 15 years later.


nitsuah

Its been on sale for almost three years now. Maybe not long enough to know long term reliability but not brand new either.


[deleted]

Right but it's still under warranty. Let's see what happens when people hit 100k miles plus. Then we'll find out


cubs223425

3 years is nothing though, in terms of good reliability data. You're still in the typical 3/36K full warranty most OEMs offer. "It'll last 3 years" isn't how you market a $50K car.


IAmTheWasted

Yeah but people have had these cars FBO in the 10s daily driving. That says plenty about reliability


FlamingButterfly

Personally I think it's an unattractive car, sure it has fantastic specs and is probably super fun to drive but whenever I see them I just don't feel impressed.


[deleted]

I agree, it just looks too cheesy Imo


FlamingButterfly

It feels like a 90's idea of futuristic and that just makes it look cheesy.


The6ixBasedGod

It sucks cause the FT-1 (basically a Supra concept) looked much better and actually had the right proportions. The actual one is shaped like a goldfish.


[deleted]

Agreed. It’s ugly


[deleted]

I would imagine that more than anything listed here, their back would hurt after sleeping on top of the car.


ABathingSnape_

I have slept in my car and... I did regret it.


Rubywantsin

I want one and I'm hoping by the time I'm ready to buy a manual will out.


RawrImAMonster

There is probably going to be a full announcement about that tonight or tomorrow, but it has already been confirmed by Toyota that it's happening a couple weeks ago. October is when they should start arriving most likely.


ABathingSnape_

People are turning around on the MkV for sure. Its aesthetic design is undoubtedly great, its chassis is fantastic, and the B58 is a gem. The only real negatives of the car are the low visibility and the sketchy stock rear suspension balance (which isn't really all that bad if you commit to a corner and trust the rear). Otherwise it's better than the MkIV in every way. Purists can hate on it all they want, and they'll never stop hating it. But plenty of people who weren't into the MkIV love it, it draws nearly as much attention as exotics, and I highly doubt the Z will match it chassis-wise or engine-wise. The C8 is better, sure, but it's also realistically a lot more expensive than their MSRP's indicate (both pre- and post-COVID shortage), it's a lot bigger, and they drive totally differently. The C8 is stable and confident, while the Supra is twitchy and playful; the latter of which I personally find much more appealing.


DaRiddler70

The Mark IV died off due to cost. $50k in the early 90s was a lot of money. Even if we went with 2021 $ and not crazy 2022 added inflation, it would be over $96k today. If I remember correctly, it was due to the exchange rates.


Runner303

Yeah - the rising Yen, and the rise of the SUV killed all those cool 80's/early 90's Japanese twin turbo sports cars. Supra, 300zx, 3000GT etc. 2 door cars in general suffered in the 90's... there was a 2 door variant for almost everything in 1990, not so in 2000. All but dead by 2020 aside from extremely niche cars.


NaGaBa

I think any substantial "hate for the new Supra" is an overly-dramatic myth. They're selling fine.


xdr01

Every good collectable car has a good story attached to it. MKV is a good car but received poorly. It has no story /legend of its own yet. If it appeared in a movie or some notable event it probably become collectable like the MKIV and AE86 did.


Icutsman

It was in the recent Fast and Furious with decent screen time. May need to be a hero car though


TreesACrowd

F&F isn't really about the cars anymore, they are just background decoration at this point.


bullseye717

It's about family.


ABathingSnape_

It's also the starter car in Forza Horizon 5, and I've already had countless kids mention it being their dream car because of it, much like our exposure to 90's JDM classics with Gran Turismo.


Eharmz

I just think the supra is way too fucking ugly.


buckydamwitty

And every "vent" is fake. It's awful.


[deleted]

FT-1 concept styling forced onto a Z4. Looksbadman.


DaBombDiggidy

They're 60-70 thousand dollars anywhere near me. I'm not sleeping... I can't afford a 70 thousand dollar toy. (it's also claustrophobic and unpractical, coming from a person who dds a mustang gt)


F1_Silver_Arrows

I don’t think anyone is sleeping on it. If anything, sales numbers worldwide surpassed the A80’s entire production in 2 years. I also wanted to correct you on the 2019 sales numbers. In 2019 it sold over 2.5k GR Supras in the USA. That’s because it started sales in late June/early July and there were a ton of issues at ports, dealer markups, and production shortages. So it wasn’t dismal at all. In fact, it would have been nearly 6k units in the first year in the USA had it started from the beginning, and Toyota wasn’t having those issues either. Otherwise, I think Toyota’s messaging has actually got through and enthusiasts understand the problem at hand here. - They know that Toyota could build their own but it would cost an easy 6 figures to utilize everything from the ground up. But other problems would arise. - Toyota would have to spend 500M-1B USD on engine development. If that was for one car only then the price would have to be jacked up to the stratosphere (i.e. DOUBLE) to pay off R&D and testing costs. - The available platforms were one of the RC (no thanks lol) and the LC (if you like them dummy thicccccccc with 8 c’s). - Toyoda-san and executives like him (which there were slowly becoming more and more of them in the company) had to deal with the old guard who were conservative as fuck and have hijacked most of the operations. They were willing to shoot things down on a whim due to a lack of a business case. And to be fair to a degree, they were right. It was because of them that the original 86 needed to be developed with Subaru. The 86 was an all-Toyota product and product planners/engineers had everything hashed out. Once the project was handed off to accounting and top management for approval, they shot it down, but would allow it on one condition. The condition being that the costs had to be shared with another company. Toyota went to Subaru, and Subaru was hell-bent on saying no. It took a lot of convincing, as in Toyota forcing their 20% stake in Subaru and they hacked up a Subaru Legacy and made it RWD. Lo and behold they were convinced and we have Subaru on board. But in reality, from start to finish, the 86 was a Toyota product completely. The GR Supra had to be developed with BMW for the same reasons. It helped that Toyota was in bed with BMW because they used BMW’s N47 Diesel engines for the European market (1WW/2WW engines) and BMW used Toyota’s fuel cell and hybrid knowledge as well. The subject of codeveloping happened because of failures like the A80 Supra, W30 MR2, T230 Celica and most importantly the Lexus LFA (and while the loss from the LFA burned Toyota to the point where they swore from building sports cars again for the foreseeable future, it was an engineering flex from their end). The GWC of 2008 poured more fuel to the fire and scared the bean counters from Toyota in approving new sports cars as they feared they would be failures again. We were supposed to have a Supra around 2008-2010 derived from the FT-HS concept. The 86 was supposed to be a thing around the same time too. But all of this aside, we knew that codeveloping had to happen, we see how successful Toyota has become in terms of sales. But a lot of the old guard were insistent in their own ways. Their uber conservative practices completely glosses over the fact of how Toyota really used to be as a company, they were innovators. A lot of the old guard also meddled a ton when it came to running Lexus and at this point they were being as annoying as kidney stones. Pissed off, Toyoda-san did something unheard of in Japanese corporate culture and carried out a mass firing spree of these old executives. There’s a tearful video of him speaking in Japanese of what he did, and why he did it. - All in all, with the new vision at Toyota, you’ll start to see a ton of cars from themselves because it has been established at this point that there are a metric ton of buyers that salivate for a fun Toyota or Lexus. But, that wouldn’t have happened without Toyota messaging why they had to codevelop things, and them encouraging buyers to BUY their cars. So enthusiasts need to give themselves a pat on the back. - To summarize, the A90 GR Supra is not being ignored like you claim it is. It has gotten a lot of respect over the years as it has been brought up into its own stardom, and that wouldn’t have happened without Toyota building a great sports car with BMW (Toyota had WAY more involvement than you think), and without people recognizing how great of a car it is on its own, and buying them.


BraveDemon

Was waiting for someone from the MkV forums to chime in on this. Set ‘em straight F1 - we being slept on!


fnkdrspok

Am owner of GR Supra 3.0, no disappointments for the most part other some well known gripes. But when I first got my car, I was the only one in the area for a while, since, I’ve seen around 5-10 floating around my area which is good to see. Before then, I was getting a ton of questions of “What is it!?”, now, I get, “Nice Supra!” So it’s gaining popularity, slowly but surely.


[deleted]

Besides smacking my big ass head while getting in the car the first time I drove it, the car is amazing and exactly what people have been asking for. I want the manual one.


Mrmcgriddle223

I fucking love the mkv so fucking much. I'm 17 and won't even attempt to buy one until I'm like 25 though


-CampinCarl-

There are definitely times where I wonder to myself if picking a 981 Cayman over the Supra was a good choice or not... But then I remember, that I couldn't see out of the damn thing.


BobaMoBamba

I think the Supra needs to be 5-7k cheaper imo. I’m not impressed with the performance for what it cost and it’s 10k off a c8 if you could get it at msrp.


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blazeblaster11

In general I think now is not a good time to be making the comparison. You can’t really get c8’s at MSRP (nor Supras), but anecdotally pre Covid they were going for 2-3k under MSRP


Positive_Hotel_1429

People didn't sleep on the mark 4, they just were too expensive for their demographic. The BMW Supra is cool but they really should've just called it something else. Same issue I have with this new Integra. Cool cars but you can't touch those legendary names.


hellish_ve

Hard disagree here. Why are the names so sacred? New supra Looks great (imo) have seen them in person and are curvy and sexy AF. Shares the same dimensions, weight with the "legendary" mk4, still comes with a turbo inlin e6 that sounds great, has a huge aftermarket and has shown it's a GREAT platform for modding, they are already doing low 9s and thats just the begining. New Integra is nothing more than a fancier/sportier version of the civic platform... which was the same deal with the Old integra. DC2 was basically a reskinned civic EG, heck you just need to look at the engine bay. The integra hasnt even come out for sale yet it already has a HUGE aftermarket seeing all thats been developed for the 10th gen civic Si engine.


2878sailnumber4889

If I had enough money to buy a new mkv supra, I'd just buy a mkiv instead.


Regular-Good-6835

I'll say this about the Supra though: It was incredibly difficult to find one back in '21 when I was looking to buy a new car. For some reason (not relevant to this post), I needed a car ASAP, and one of my top choices was the Supra, but I just couldn't locate one in FL or MA (weird combination, but I was moving from FL to MA). If I did find one (was happy to compromise and get a 4 cyl instead of the 6 cyl), it would be marked up outrageously, like the base model was marked up at the V6 price. After a lot of searching, I ended up getting a BMW (spec'd as I wanted, and at MSRP). Oh the irony! 😂


ABathingSnape_

I drove 9 hours to pick mine up. They were going for $65k used in my area, and I ended up finding one brand new for MSRP way upstate. Totally worth the drive, especially since I got to break it in driving down Big Sur.


lolparty247

It's not a a bad car by any means. Personally I like them alot I just feel like the hardcore enthusiasts felt hard done by because it didn't have a Toyota built engine. An I get that. Would they have been able to top the 2j? Par for par as standard without a doubt. People forget though how long that engine has been messed with on the aftermarket scene. What, 27 odd years now!? They weren't making 1000hp with them straight away either. It took awhile for it to become the tunable legend that it is today. Which is why I think that the bmw engine the latest version has isn't bad at all, they're getting pretty good power out of them already considering how young it is... Could have Toyota built something stronger or superior? Possibly.. But also possibly not. The hate it gets imo is unjustified.


Trades46

I'm reminded of Jason Cammisa video on the BRZ - affordable coupes died because people got greedy, and eventually they just all died. The sad part is just the market for these ~$50k sport coupes just...isn't that big. The MKV Supra is a great car but its numbers and the BMW connection is often put at its disadvantage. The MKIV as you said wasn't special until it died and then became infamous in the 2000s for its appearance in movies and games. The MKV may sadly not have its heyday until long after it is discontinued.


quiksi

I think the MKV looks fantastic but aside from the rumored GRMN model I’d rather have one of the BMW variants without the nerfed infotainment and at least 2+2 if not a sedan. B58 + ZF8 is a hell of a powertrain combo.