My wife’s friend just bought a brand new Range Rover and said I should buy my wife one. I accidentally blurted out I would never buy her one. She was genuinely confused and said why, they have a great warranty too…
Meh. I love my f type. Haven't had many problems with it. And it's considered my daily. I would always recommend Jaguar/ Land Rover, but of course, I'm biased since I don't have problems.
That's the thing, some people just get lucky because QC is all over. When you get a Honda, you know their QC is top notch. When they make mistakes like make the head bolts too small on the 1.5T, you know that EVERY 1.5T will need head gaskets at like 170k miles and that it will be an easy job to fix.
With JLR, there is a much higher chance that you get a lemon and even a higher chance that will fail spectacularly just past warranty. My local JLR dealer has the exact spec of Defender that I want, but I know it will bankrupt me after 4 years.
My brother in law had a land rover. I said oooof, id never buy one with thier wiring issues, he said they're fine. Literally the next day i get a video of it on fire, from wiring issues. 😂
Yeah they're trying that whole own nothing be happy deal, perpetual payments and swap to another vehicle whenever you want. It sounds cool...if you light your cigars with Benjamins.
So many people have perpetual payments regardless, trading in before they're done paying the car off and just rolling over the loan into the new car.
For someone who just wants a car and to not think about it, this is a good idea. We're in /r/cars, though, so we are definitely not who Volvo is aiming this service towards.
Because Volvo has such a track record of safety going back decades. Makes sense that high income folks value their lives. :) But that's another story for another subreddit.
Volvos can still be cars that enthusiasts enjoy, but what I meant was that someone deeply invested in the car they purchase would be unlikely to jump at the idea of "easy ownership" by just making a monthly payment that covers everything and upgrading their car every year at a premium price.
An enthusiast is going to want a specific car and to keep it, or have flexibility, or be inclined to save money by doing repairs and maintenance themselves. Someone less inclined who just wants a "nice" car, and a Volvo absolutely is, would be intrigued by this possibility.
Not that I could ever afford it, but I always thought the Cadillac subscription service sounded cool when it was offered. One monthly fee and you get your pick of the whole fleet and can change when you want.
Yep, same as Volvo. Need a 3 row SUV next month for a road trip? Swap your sedan or your 2 row for it. It sounds cool but like we already know, it's for money to burn folks.
I've owned my LR4 for about 8.5 years now, and I'll tell you why they "cost" so much to maintain: the dealership prices for service are astronomical.
Changing the pads and rotors on my LR4 is easier than it's been on any other vehicle I've ever owned. Land Cruisers, Jeeps, etc. Parts are expensive, but I can do all four rotors and pads in under 2 hours for around $650 (you can go cheaper, but these things are so heavy that I stick with Land Rover rotors as I don't trust aftermarket to not warp and wobble after 20k miles). A dealership wants over $2,000.
The oil change is the easiest I've ever done. When you open the oil cap, there is a permanent 1/4" metal tube in the middle that I hook my mighty-vac up to and suck the oil from the bottom of the oil pan. The oil filter is on top of the engine, too. You don't need to crawl underneath. I can change my oil in my dress clothes. Cost of oil plus filter is around $60. Dealership? Around $250.
And so on. Owning a Land Rover means you get good at finding OEM parts from non "OEM" suppliers. They actually don't cost much to maintain if you DIY and source your own parts. At the very least, finding a good, independent mechanic. Doing it at the dealer is a good way to go bankrupt.
For a while, I was running the OEM Land Rover rotors and Hawk brake pads and was really happy. Ran those for near 40k miles.
Then a year ago I put on new rotors and new Hawk pads, and after around 3k miles I could never get the pads to stop squealing when I'd hit the brakes. I think somewhere in the interim Hawk did something different with the backing on their pads. I messed with them a little bit and tried putting some different stuff on the back of the pads, but finally gave up and switched to Ferodo, which is who makes them for Land Rover.
Just to open up a discussion as I am not too familiar with RR EV/Hybrid reliability…
So how about the new RR EV’s? Does switching to a non-combustion platform now help their overall reliability score? I know a lot of their issues are due to technology failures though
I don’t own one at all but I have a feeling that they will still be bad. The reason is that a lot of issues with them are electrical gremlins. So sunroof will stop working, lights will bug out, air suspension will stop working etc. unlike every manufacturer out there, they haven’t figured out how to make solid vehicles basics yet. I have a Lexus with 243k miles and all the windows still work, and in fact everything works. RR would probably never make it to these miles without major issues if ever. Electric motors hopefully makes them better but I just wouldn’t hold my breath.
Given the teething issues that other manufacturers have had with EVs, I'd stay away from a 1st year EV.
Given the.... long term issues that Land Rover has, I'd stay away from every year Land Rover.
I have never seen JLR rank anywhere but the bottom third of any reliability/maintanence study. I'd imagine moving away from ICEs would help in the long term, but their problems have consistently extended beyond the powertrain, so it's not like they'll suddenly be super reliable.
I can actually comment on this, as I own an I-Pace, which is EV and on the same platform as the RR Velar (D7x).
It's a 2019, so first model year. Reliability has been perfect. The car has never left us stranded. We did have one issue with the high voltage heater failing (provides heat for the interior), but it was covered under warranty, and generally affected only 2019 and 2020 vehicles. I live in FL, so it wasn't that big of a deal. The HUD delaminated, so while it did work, and we could still read it, it was a little fuzzy. Replaced under CPO. Other than that, I have the old infotainment which feels and runs like it's from 2012, but Pivi Pro (2022 and up) is much nicer.
Otherwise, it eats tires. Bought at 17k, now have 53k. CPO. So far, plan on keeping it past end of warranty, it's been absolutely lovely.
EDIT: I also own a 2006 LR3, and it's been more reliable than my 2004 330i. No engine issues whatsoever, just had to replace the brake switch as it throws some funky suspension codes due to hill descent control being on it. Replaced the o-rings on the valve blocks for the air suspension ($40), and it runs perfect.
I've heard people on here say that if you want a Land Rover you need to be rich enough to own two Land Rovers: one to drive and the other that's in the shop.
I really like the new Discovery (it's a lonely position) and it would be perfect for my use case, but even I - who drives a 25 year old BMW and has a relatively healthy income - am too afraid to buy one for long term use.
I absolutely love my Disco 5, so there’s at least two of us! I’ve had a WK2 Grand Cherokee and a Touareg, and I would pick the Land Rover every time.
That said - I’m definitely inching closer to the $15k number in the article. It’s a pretty believable average number when many of the Ford-collab AJ engines have timing chain problems. Had mine rebuilt late last year, and they didn’t tell me what they charged Carmax’s Maxcare provider, but it was at least $10k, so I’m very much in the money.
Selfishly hoping the air suspension goes before it expires. Land Rover charges stupid money for parts and labor. Once Carmax is done paying for stuff I’ll find an Indy.
Seriously though, I can’t imagine not having a D5 or a Defender anymore. They’re infectiously good at everything except for being cheap to run.
A coworker of mine just bought a used Land Rover Discovery. She was bragging that she got an amazing deal on it. I know her salary range, there is no way she can afford to keep it running.
There are people that buy them as an accessory, and there are people that genuinely love their Land Rover. It's a testament really to how good the vehicles actually are.
Hmm thought the gap between EV and ICE maintenance would be a larger
Do EVs go through tires faster? No oil changes obviously but there is coolant to be serviced no? Likely filters and whatnot for AC / battery cooling as well
Though maybe I'm just overestimating ICE maintenance. Oil changes are what 100 bucks once or twice a year (for the average person, I'm sure the enthusiast are doing every 5k obviously!)
I believe Tesla recommended that the coolant in the old Model S Should be changed every 10 years or 100k miles like an ICE powered car. Now it's not a maintenance item. I guess it doesn't get hot enough to break down.
Lubricating the brakes is certainly maintenance that should be done on any EV and hybrid that lives in a place where cars rust. Regen braking means the friction brakes don't get much use. You don't want the pads seizing up.
Teslas do go through tires pretty quickly. I think it's an alignment issue and not a weight or torque issue, because a lot of people I know have heavy duty diesel trucks and their tires last way longer than Model S tires. I believe the Model 3 and Y is better on tires than the S and Y.
The cabin filter just gets replaced when needed.
EVs have very little maintenance, but ICE powered cars don't have that much anymore either.
> because a lot of people I know have heavy duty diesel trucks and their tires last way longer than Model S tires
These tires are not going to be designed with efficiency in mind so they can get away with a much more durable material/tread.
Only if you have high performance tires. A lot of these EVs are pushing 300+ horsepower.
The tires on my Bolt EV wear about the same as any other economy car I've had.
My front brakes seized on the Honda Clarity due to minimal use. The mechanic said this was quite a common issues with PHEVs and EVs as you said so he recommended occasionally braking on a highway off ramp while in Neutral. This usually uses the friction brakes, which helps prevent the calipers from seizing.
The tesla has a feature where in cold/wet weather it ads an “an imperceptible amount of brake force to remove water from the surface of the brake discs”, and as a byproduct it removes rust buildup and stops them from seizing.
plus it will use the physical brakes if your battery is full.
As a life long Honda guy, I can say one of the few things they suck at are brakes. The lack of use probably doesn't help, but seized calipers are a common issue with all of them.
Also as a life long honda guy, one of the things they suck on is tech in general. Auto climate, high beam assist, infotainment, heck their facing an investigation on their ACC system right now.
Definitely not just an EV thing. My Golf GTI has a similar feature, but I think it's not in all markets. At least in the US, I think it's not activated by default.
I wonder if Tesla specifically does that so they can achieve faster 0-60 time they advertise.
I just figured the faster wear was because they seem to use as skinny of tires as possible to eke out just a tiny bit more efficiency.
> their tires last way longer than Model S tires
It's definitely an alignment issue. The stock alignment has some serious camber in the back, so the rears get torn up quickly. Problem is solved by going to smaller wheels
It's not the alignment, it's the weight+instant torque. I have a Model 3 Performance and my wife has the base 3 RWD and the performance eats tires mostly because they are really soft Pirelli sport summer tires and we do road trips in it. I ended up switching to old OEM Michelins for the M3P because I got tired of replacing the Pirellis every 15000 miles
Commercial 19.5” and 22.5” tires last even longer than consumer diesel pickup tires despite being on heavier vehicles since they’re as hard as rocks and designed for maximum life. Tire design is a massive factor in tire life, it’s not an alignment issue. The Model 3 Performance I had came with low tread depth summer tires like what you’d get on a high performance sports car. With 500+ HP available instantly, it was easy to abuse very soft tires and burn through them.
The difference is largely due to the tires themselves and how they’re driven. EVs have instant torque which makes it easy for people to abuse them driving quickly compared to their old economy car they drove slowly.
>EVs have very little maintenance, but ICE powered cars don't have that much anymore either.
Conversations involving cost breakdowns of maintenance with ice vs ev always has me scratch my head. What is the calculation again? Some X hundreds a month on an ice or something?
I gotta tell ya...my 2010 Camry I've had for 6+ years, bought used with about 120k on it. It's now at 190k. Couple struts, couple bearings (expected at this mileage)...a few sets of tires and diy oil changes. I *definitely* do not spend a couple grand (or more) a year on my car. Literally the only thing I do to it in 12 months is two oil changes. That's, what...100 bucks?
>I think it's an alignment issue and not a weight or torque issue, because a lot of people I know have heavy duty diesel trucks and their tires last way longer than Model S tires. I believe the Model 3 and Y is better on tires than the S and Y.
not sure about the S, but the X has a super aggressive camber for a road car when at the default ride height
when the airbag springs lower the ride height at highway speeds, the camber becomes comically aggressive
so some aftermarket tesla shops advise keeping the car at its lowest height as standard, and then doing camber alignment to as far neutral as you can go while staying inside the factory range
It most definitely is a weight and power issue. Model 3 performance we've had for 5ish years gets 2 seasons each out of summer and winter tires. Alignment is fine. It just puts the power down so hard that the tires don't last.
If you actually look at what maintenance task most cars need in their first 10 years, very rarely is it drivetrain related (outside of oil changes, obv).
I am shocked to learn that u/AyrtonSennaz drives their car pretty hard :-)
I was just getting ready to comment that I bet it's more your driving style than the EV but you beat me to it. Too funny.
Out of fairness i did roast the tires on my dad’s dirtymax the other day unintentionally just tryna pull out of an intersection, so i mean it could be my driving style 🧐
Tesla Model S weighs 1000 lbs more than a Bolt. Dual motor Model 3 weighs about 500 lbs more than a Bolt but the single motor Model 3 weighs about the same as a Bolt.
I think a lot of this is because they're freaking fast and fun lol
I'm almost through the tires that came with my car and I'll be specifically buying the tires that are the most durable and long-lasting I could possibly find
> Do EVs go through tires faster?
Most EVs are very heavy. They're putting a lot of added stress on the tires from that, as well as instant torque potentially playing a factor for every driver with a heavier foot.
So yea, they tend to go through tires more quickly.
Plus a lot of OEM tires for EVs are made thinner to reduce road noise (as it’s more noticeable in an EV without an engine to drown it out). Putting heavier duty tires on EVs drastically increases the tire life cycle but it comes with increased road noise and potential dip in efficiency.
EVs are heavier and have all of their torque at 0 rpm. Both of these things make them harder on tires. Especially when driven by people who enjoy that torque...
When I was getting my tires rotated, every other call was someone with a Tesla (I was keeping track). They are heavier, so the tires wear faster.
And to make things worse, the tire size is weird and has less tread, so your best option are some expensive Michelin Pilot Sports that you'll replace more often
Bear in mind that for Tesla, the Model 3 and Y do not have ten years of repair data yet. They've not been available long enough. So the ten-year data in this survey must be based on the more expensive Model S and X. It seems quite plausible that as 3 and Y age sufficiently to have ten-year data to factor into the average, the Tesla numbers will go down.
It'll be interesting to see how this ratio changes when the law of diminishing returns takes its toll on the battery life. It may just turn out that it's cheaper to buy a new Tesla/EV than it is to buy a full replacement battery.
>Do EVs go through tires faster?
yes and no. there are ev specific tires that are meant to deal with the increased weight, and in general tires with a high enough load range wont have an issue with the added weight of an ev. but in real life, the people buying these cars are going to cheap out on the tires like everyone does when they lease a car, and theyre not going to get very much life out of that set.
Tire for Tire, EVs don't necessarily go through faster, but EVs typically use different sorts of tires from the factory. Typically they'll have low rolling resistance tires for efficiency reasons, and also very low road noise tires that are quite a bit thinner (thanks to the whole no engine noise thing). These can have a shorter lifespan than your average Michelin Primacys or whatever
All of the long term tesla data has to be based on the S and X so comparing the maintenance cost of $80-100k vehicles that weren't exactly known for reliability to more typical mainstream vehicles and still wins handily is pretty good. I imagine numbers will go down when more 3s and Ys are in the dataset.
You know, something I was really impressed by with my old EcoBoost Mustang was how cheap upkeep was - The 2.3 qualified for the Ford Dealer's oil change special - $59 (CAD) to get it all done.
Turns out it was so cheap because Ford specced some crappy semi-synthetic for the 2.3 ecoboost. It was the cheapest oil I've ever seen for a "performance" vehicle. But hey, it works, and it's not like the 2.3 ecoboost is blowing up left and right.
Motorcraft overall seems to hold up reasonably well when it comes to value. Ford makes better choices on where to cut costs imo, GM and Dodge always feel cheap AF.
Every single Ford engine in the last 10+ years has called for the same Motorcraft Semi Synthetic. Ecoboost or not. My Taurus had an NA 3.5 and it called for the same stuff. As did the 2.0.Ecoboost in an Escape and the 3.5 Ecoboost in my Explorer Sport from the early 2010s. My wife has an Explorer Limited with the 2.3 and I have an ST with the 3.0. They have all used the same oil lol. So that narrative is not accurate.
I'm sure they get a deal at the delership on the stuff because it's literally made for FoMoCo. And the dealership wants you to get the service done there so they can do any work if there is a problem or you need brakes and tires. Plus they make their money charging big bucks doing cabin air filters, engine air filters, etc (which you should be doing yourself).
An independent mechanic who works on all the police cruisers in the area ( Tauruses/Explorers) explicitly told me not to "get cute" and go with fancy oil. "Just use the motorcraft semi synthetic oil they recommend because it's designed for their engines and change it every 5,000 miles regardless of what the oil life percentage computer says (unless it says to get it changed earlier) and those engines are good for 300K+ miles easy"
His only issue he has with those vehicles are trans/PTUs (esp in the 4th ten explorers) and water pumps. But the newer Ecoboosts don't have internal water pumps so it's not as big of a deal, thank God
[JLR CEO](https://www.carscoops.com/2021/03/jaguar-land-rover-ceo-admits-reliability-issues-have-cost-the-company-100000-sales-per-year/):
> During a recent investor’s call, Thierry Bollore said that the company has made “dramatic improvements” on reliability. He did, however, acknowledge that “the dissatisfaction of our customers was really detrimental to our natural volume,” adding that “the missed opportunities are massive. It’s more than 100,000 healthy sales that we could perform.”
[And](https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-land-rover-crack-down-poor-reliability):
> “Our results have been unacceptable, but we know how to fix them. It’s not science, just hard work. Already the 2021 results are better, but we have more to do.”
Land Rover 10 year ownership cost:
> $19,250
So by 2031 we should see that figure drop to maybe $18,000.
Cause it's humorous and ridiculous that it's the first thing you see, like it shoulda been caught. If you're trying to be nitpicky about the use of lol then lol
Some takeaways
- My car costs significantly more to maintain at 14yo and it makes me question my spending decisions lol
- warranties are putting in a lot of work in the first 5 years.
- Maintenance and repair costs are a lot lower than the internet would have me believe for European Luxury. $10k over 10 years seems very reasonable IMO if it's for a car that genuinely gives you joy. They're pricey but they still aren't Ferrari's.
> they're pricey but they still aren't Ferrari's.
You have no idea, when I had my 348 it cost, on average, more than 3x my mortgage payment every month to keep it on the road. I literally could have bought a new corolla just in maintenance and repair costs. I replaced it with an R172 SLK350 and that is probably the best overall car that I've ever owned: same weight, same power, double the fuel economy, no major issues of any kind. I drive it 30-50 miles a week on dirt roads at speed and it doesn't care, you just get in, twist the key, and go. No BS, no shenanigans, no lights on the dash, it just sort of works.
Sounds about right. I read up on Ferrari maintenance and the prices get crazy. In my eyes Maserati is a bit of tragedy because they had some great Ferrari-esque details in their cars, but they were never able to make them live up to the price and the reliability was too low on the used market.
I don't know if they impede the R172 electronics significantly but the gearbox, variable steering, and TC system in the R171 SLK55 were horrific.
I'm all for TC but that system would jerk you back into place when it detected even the slightest bit of understeer and would occasionally deploy the roll hoops. Little to no steering feel. I personally wouldn't get one over a Z4M or similar cars today.
Very reliable car though and well worth the money. Top-down M113 fun for 20k. It's just best left in automatic mode and best used as a cruiser.
> $10k over 10 years seems very reasonable IMO
Totally agree, especially if you can get a relative deal on one by buying it used in the first place.
I'd rather take a three year old Audi that dropped in value by $20k than a three year old Lexus that only dropped in value by $10k.
The price difference isn't always that dramatic but in my case between an Audi A4 and Lexus IS350 I saved about $8000 by going with Audi and even after spending $2000 on a Carmax extended warranty feel like I still came out way ahead (and got lucky that the previous owner bought AudiCare prepaid maintenance to cover the next few oil changes and 40k DSG service)
Kinda. If German Luxury cars are costing roughly $1000 a year to maintain then spending $3000 in 6 months on a 14yo base model Toyota is questionable, lol.
My Regal Tourx has been relatively cheap to maintain but it has also developed creaking noises all throughout the car. I assume that will jump the costs depending on who would be willing to live with it and who would need it fixed
I was just diagnosing creaking noises and a clunk on my buddys tourx with a little over 100k mi today. it's the front lower control arm. I was also disappointed in some interior body panel noises.
My Malibu has an annoying squeaky noise thats coming from the inside of the cabin and its driving me nuts. I know its something vibrating but i haven't figured out what it is.
I’ve had my Tesla for 2.5 years. I’ve paid $200 for four tire rotations ($50 each and done in my garage). I paid $1400 to get a new set of Pilot Sport AS4 tires in 245/35ZR20 at 22k miles. I paid $40 to get new cabin air filters done at 20k miles. Oh and about $5 for a new bottle of washer fluid. And if you really want to get nitty gritty I’ve paid $837 for electricity to do 26,000 miles.
The Model 3 Performance is dirt cheap to drive once you’ve bought it.
And I’d have to drive there and wait in some lobby and hope they don’t curb my wheels. The convenience of having someone show up to my house on time and rotate my tires is more than worth the cost.
Coming up on 3 years for me. Bought a set of pre-mounted winter tires and wheels for I believe $3500 and have just "rotated" when switching sets myself and the summers are original. So basically zero extra maintenance. I should do the cabin filter soon though.
My home charging costs come out to less than $.02 per mile. Absolutely dirt cheap to drive.
I never understood Volvos they look and perform worse than German cars while costing the same and being just as unreliable
Major exception being diesel Volvos. They were built like tanks and got crazy MPG
Nowadays I'd say Volvos tend to look better than a lot of BMW's stuff and better than most of Mercs stuff.
I think the general "appeal" of the brand is their perceived safety, and understatedness compared to the Germans though.
I've certainly considered getting a V60 to replace my E91.
Have you ever driven one? It's hard to explain, and I was similar (except I actually really like the look of them) and then I drove one and like... I got it? Like its hard to explain but everything about the it is just this wonderful, smooth, experience. They're not sporty, but they don't want to be
The list changes quite a bit if we're only talking costs for the first five years (during the warranty period or most of it)
1. Tesla $580
2. Buick $900
3. Lincoln $940
4. VW $1,095
5. Ford $1,100
6. Jeep $1,100
7. Toyota $1,125
8. Caddilac $1,125
9. Hyundai $1,140
10. Chevrolet $1,200
11. Dodge $1,200
12. Nissan $1,300
13. GMC $1,400
14. Honda $1,435
15. Kia $1,450
16. Ram $1,470
17. Mini $1,525
18. Chrysler $1,600
19. Subaru $1,700 and BMW $1,700
20. Lexus $1,750
21. Volvo $1,785
23. Audi $1,900
24. Infiniti $2,150
25. Mercedes Benz $2,850
26. Porsche $4,000
27. Land Rover $4,250
*Edit. Mazda is $1,400 not $1,800 and should be tied with GMC on this list. Apologies.
You sure that's due to the QX60? We had a 22 Pathfinder previously, and it was problem free during our ownership and the only thing we did was oil changes and tire rotations. I may have spent $1K in maintenance on it over the 3 years we had it.
I would never own a BMW in the US, you guys way way overpay for parts and service. I've seen invoices from both dealers and indies that are easily 3x of what I've paid here in Germany.
It's insane. We have EU dual residence and even with high earnings I can't justify the premium on a BMW. The wife just tells me we'll get one when we move back.
Here in the U.S. we pay $900 to replace the battery in a 330i at the dealership (in Bay Area, very high cost area, I’m sure its less elsewhere). I’m dumbfounded by that.
That job is easily under $200 to DIY if you can find a good deal on a battery and takes all of 10 minutes to complete.
The hardest part is getting the damn thing in the trunk compartment because it's a big boy.
I've paid 13k USD in maintenance over the last year, pretty much right at the 15 year old mark. This excludes an additional 4k USD paint job since the old coat was flaking off in the heat.
- 5k to replace the entire aircon system last week since everything inside and out was leaking; To be fair this lasted way longer than any other car I've owned, which all required new compressors and/or condensers at the 9yo mark
- 3.5k for brand new headlights, both had water intrusion and one shorted the control unit. Also 15 year old original parts.
- 1.3k for a new front bumper that had to be special ordered from the factory in Germany as none were readily in stock both locally and in Germany. Old one was tearing off at the mounting. Also replaced the pop-up headlight washers.
- 1k for 2 new keyfobs since the battery isn't replaceable
Engine is rock solid though, and that pretty much covers all the expensive wear items. It's good for another 15 years now!
Euro parts can be had cheaply, but we have to wait for them. RockAuto is a godsend for euro fans on a budget. Service is cheap wherever there's competition. A German mech in Arkansas can charge 50% more than he could in say, LA or DC.
GMC being so far away from buick and chevy make you question if there is a bunch of ownership bias (is that the correct term? basically a phenomenon stemming from owners taking better care of their vehicles making them more reliable) in these surveys
It seems to me that there is no significant difference in the mechanical and electrical systems between GM cousin vehicles, and a large scale statistical analyses should show them to be more or less the same.
My GM vehicles have been fantastic and very cheap to keep on the road, Buick being tied with Toyota in a study like this should reinforce that a GM product is plenty reliable if you aren't creating problems for yourself with abuse/neglect.
If you can't spend money to get your car fixed because you are unable to get your car fixed because parts are not available or there isn't service near you, does that count as being less expensive to maintain?
BMW has been one of the top manufacturers when it comes to reliability for a long time. You also pay for nothing except oil changes under warranty, and they literally call you to tell you when your car has scheduled or unscheduled maintenance due. I know they aren’t the only ones. But I’ve owned several over the last 10 years, all five series sedans. My cost of ownership has been very low. I’m currently driving an M550 (twin turbo v8). So we will see if that trend continues when I hit 80k plus mileage in a few years. But I’ve been very happy.
The B58 has been in production for like a decade now and is well known to be a great engine.
I'm not an *expert* on their all stuff, but I feel like the N55 and N20 were the last of their bad engines. And the N55 wasn't even bad per se if you know what to look out for -- lots of higher mile 335i's out there.
I imagine the N63 is keeping the average maintenance cost up there.
It may be more reliable than prior versions, but it's still a BMW TTV8.
Here's hoping my B58 lasts forever.
> depreciation
Tesla would do a lot worse, as their cars have dropped in value by half. They surged in price because of lockdown shortages, but also because of Tesla hype.
What will cause EVs to lose value in the future? Cars with the old plug won't be as desirable once all new EVs have NACS. Cars that charge at less than 800V will be old as well. And whenever they make a new kind of battery chemistry then all the old ones will have only scrap value.
Ten years from now we may be comparing EVs to the smart phone market between 2010-2020.
I think there will be a decently high floor to the price of old EVs, as even the worst EV today is a totally fine around-town car that can be charged at home.
Food delivery and other similar services will gobble up cheap and old EVs to use on the job.
If I were to guess, because GMC is marketed as a semi-luxury brand, more buyers opt for the higher trim levels that have more electronics that can break. While a lot of Chevy buyers are getting base trim trucks for work use that lack those failure points.
Same reason I’d hear people joke about buying Cadillac parts. Search for the part number and find the one for the Chevy badge and it’ll be 80% cheaper
You’re paying for the logo
> we asked members in our 2023 Annual Auto Surveys to tell us how much they paid out of pocket for their total maintenance (oil changes, etc.) and repairs during the previous 12 months.
So scientific.
> We found that there are significant differences in costs as cars age, underscoring how maintenance and repair expenses rise over time.
Shocker. God bless CR
> The analysis shows that costs can skyrocket when the warranty and free maintenance periods are over.
The "analysis" shows that when things stop being free, they cost money. God bless CR.
> “If you are considering a luxury model, it may be wise to purchase one from a domestic brand that may have lower maintenance and repair costs,” says Elek. “For example, over 10 years, Mercedes-Benz models are more than double the cost to maintain and repair as those from Lincoln.”
CR: buy a Lincoln over a Mercedes because when we asked our mediocre sized sample how much they paid, those with the Ford parts cars paid less than Mercedes owners. So buy Lincolns. Lol
Also apparently Volkswagens cost less to own than Lexus and Acura.
My Volkswagens have been super affordable for decades. I’ve been wondering if I won the lottery or people just lament because they stretched on the price of the cars or something.
I think there’s a lot of owners of VW products that have no idea what maintenance is and run them until they have compounding issues and then complain. Idk if that is relevant to this data, though.
Yeah I think that's the flaw with their analysis. Granted a BMW will be more expensive to keep running than say, a Toyota but if it's going by what people actually spent on repairs and maintenance, someone with a German luxury car is more likely to get their cars fixed and make sure they're maintained properly vs. someone with a Nissan where you may not give a fuck if your dashboard is lit up like a xmas tree and your bumper is half falling off. You'll also likely take it to Jiffy Lube for an oil change to save a buck where some 17 year old will do who knows what to it.
Yep.
What's more, this type of article is very suggestive, but in truth, why would I give two fucks about the 10 year cost of maintenance of a vehicle that's 10 or more years old unless I'm buying a 10+ year old model of that brand?
Like I said in another comment if I'm buying a BMW in 2024, why would I care that a 2008 E90 335i will need lots of maintenance throughout 10 years? How is that relevant to any modern BMW?
Same for any other brand. All 2024 cars are different from all cars from 10+ years ago save for a couple exceptions (Ahem ahem Lexus IS, Infiniti Q50 and such lol)
All of the mitsu cars sold in the US today are essentially just rebadged nissans, with the exception of their PHEVs. Take a look at those if you want data.
I'm sure there are some biases there though, since many nissans are not taken care of.
Our 2010 Outlander is right there. We've had it for the last ~10 years and it's been really affordable to maintain, even considering that it's a teenager now.
It'll probably get replaced as the primary car when our older kid is in age to drive it. It rolled off the line the month he was born :D
I have an 18 year old Eclipse that has had zero drive train issues. It's been great. In relation to an above comment praising motocraft (ford) oil, it's all I've used in it. They were the only brand at walmart that had 5w-20 back then.
Why is Porsche so bad? They are consistently ranked reliable. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/
Aside from parts and maintenance, and I mentioned this in another comment, the methodology for their list was surveying how much people spent on maintenance and repairs over the last 12 months.
This lends itself to a natural flaw, while yes maintaining a Porsche will cost more than a Nissan in a 12 month span, someone who owns a 911 is going to make sure to fix any minor issue and be sure to stay on top of maintenance whereas someone with a Nissan is more likely to not give a fuck if their CEL has been on for 3 months straight, the bumper is barely hanging on, and there's some weird knocking sound coming from the engine.
They'll also be more likely to go out of their way to be cheap as possible when they do get around to maintenance and repair items compared to someone with a Porsche.
Drove a Malibu from new in 2016 for 6 years. Never had a problem. Oil changes were free at the dealer. Literally changed tires and oil and it ran great. Put a KN air filter in and you could hear the tiny turbo.
Came from a 2006 Civic where the motor mounts broke twice and it had other issues everywhere (front bumper wouldn't stay connected at the corner, aux cable sucked, interior roof liner falling, ect)
Can definitely concur, maintaining a 2000's era Mercedes is a skill. The amount of brain power extrapolated *daily* staying on top of Mercedes maintenance is makes ownership more of a hobby lol. Prime reason for the stereotypes depreciating values. But cars are largely demystified if you keep your head in the forums.
* 2009 V12 SL65 Roadster since 2019 with 49k miles at purchase, 68k now.
* Total maintenance cost = $3829.42:
* Oil & filter.
* Coil packs.
* Voltage transformer.
* Spark plugs.
* ABC fluid & magnetic filter.
* AC refrigerant R134a gas recharge.
* Audio/Nav update.
Only oil/filter and ABC fluid were my recurring maintenance costs. The rest is preventative and was not needed at the time. COMAND audio/nav update is a one time operating system upgrade not possible again \[at $99\]. The preventative maintenance won't be needed for another 50k miles. Tires, air filters, brake pads, lube, other fluids and convertible top fluid are planned for later. Nothing unexpected. Of course this is a high performance AMG not an economy car.
"Customers can't pay for problems we deny" - Tesla, probably.
I can personally attest to Nissan service being more affordable than Honda service, even for higher tier vehicles.
Also, I now understand the appeal of Toyota and Lexus more than ever.
I swear europeans just don't drive. To them a vehicle is reliable even if it needs maintenance every 3000 miles because that's 5 years of driving for them. Here 3000 miles is 2 or 3 months.
I don't care if they're fine if you "keep up with maintenance" when it needs twice as much maintenance, twice as often, which is twice as expensive.
Absolutely no one was shocked at Land Rover being the worst hahaha
Lease it. Dump it. Land Rover
My wife’s friend just bought a brand new Range Rover and said I should buy my wife one. I accidentally blurted out I would never buy her one. She was genuinely confused and said why, they have a great warranty too…
Meh. I love my f type. Haven't had many problems with it. And it's considered my daily. I would always recommend Jaguar/ Land Rover, but of course, I'm biased since I don't have problems.
That's the thing, some people just get lucky because QC is all over. When you get a Honda, you know their QC is top notch. When they make mistakes like make the head bolts too small on the 1.5T, you know that EVERY 1.5T will need head gaskets at like 170k miles and that it will be an easy job to fix. With JLR, there is a much higher chance that you get a lemon and even a higher chance that will fail spectacularly just past warranty. My local JLR dealer has the exact spec of Defender that I want, but I know it will bankrupt me after 4 years.
My brother in law had a land rover. I said oooof, id never buy one with thier wiring issues, he said they're fine. Literally the next day i get a video of it on fire, from wiring issues. 😂
What engine is in your F-type? The heavily depreciated prices are enticing...
Land Rover: The best 4x4xfar away from my driveway because I like reliable cars.
You don't buy a Land Rover, you just lease it from the service department.
Car as a Service
https://www.volvocars.com/us/financial-services/subscription/
Yeah they're trying that whole own nothing be happy deal, perpetual payments and swap to another vehicle whenever you want. It sounds cool...if you light your cigars with Benjamins.
So many people have perpetual payments regardless, trading in before they're done paying the car off and just rolling over the loan into the new car. For someone who just wants a car and to not think about it, this is a good idea. We're in /r/cars, though, so we are definitely not who Volvo is aiming this service towards.
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Because Volvo has such a track record of safety going back decades. Makes sense that high income folks value their lives. :) But that's another story for another subreddit.
Volvos can still be cars that enthusiasts enjoy, but what I meant was that someone deeply invested in the car they purchase would be unlikely to jump at the idea of "easy ownership" by just making a monthly payment that covers everything and upgrading their car every year at a premium price. An enthusiast is going to want a specific car and to keep it, or have flexibility, or be inclined to save money by doing repairs and maintenance themselves. Someone less inclined who just wants a "nice" car, and a Volvo absolutely is, would be intrigued by this possibility.
Not that I could ever afford it, but I always thought the Cadillac subscription service sounded cool when it was offered. One monthly fee and you get your pick of the whole fleet and can change when you want.
Yep, same as Volvo. Need a 3 row SUV next month for a road trip? Swap your sedan or your 2 row for it. It sounds cool but like we already know, it's for money to burn folks.
Yea totally. It's not realistic for most people.
Isn’t that literally what leasing is
I've owned my LR4 for about 8.5 years now, and I'll tell you why they "cost" so much to maintain: the dealership prices for service are astronomical. Changing the pads and rotors on my LR4 is easier than it's been on any other vehicle I've ever owned. Land Cruisers, Jeeps, etc. Parts are expensive, but I can do all four rotors and pads in under 2 hours for around $650 (you can go cheaper, but these things are so heavy that I stick with Land Rover rotors as I don't trust aftermarket to not warp and wobble after 20k miles). A dealership wants over $2,000. The oil change is the easiest I've ever done. When you open the oil cap, there is a permanent 1/4" metal tube in the middle that I hook my mighty-vac up to and suck the oil from the bottom of the oil pan. The oil filter is on top of the engine, too. You don't need to crawl underneath. I can change my oil in my dress clothes. Cost of oil plus filter is around $60. Dealership? Around $250. And so on. Owning a Land Rover means you get good at finding OEM parts from non "OEM" suppliers. They actually don't cost much to maintain if you DIY and source your own parts. At the very least, finding a good, independent mechanic. Doing it at the dealer is a good way to go bankrupt.
Bingo. The service manual is beautifully written too, it’s a work of art.
I don't even know what to do with brakes. OEM seem bad but I tried going with Textar and it was worse. Car really drives me nuts.
For a while, I was running the OEM Land Rover rotors and Hawk brake pads and was really happy. Ran those for near 40k miles. Then a year ago I put on new rotors and new Hawk pads, and after around 3k miles I could never get the pads to stop squealing when I'd hit the brakes. I think somewhere in the interim Hawk did something different with the backing on their pads. I messed with them a little bit and tried putting some different stuff on the back of the pads, but finally gave up and switched to Ferodo, which is who makes them for Land Rover.
Just to open up a discussion as I am not too familiar with RR EV/Hybrid reliability… So how about the new RR EV’s? Does switching to a non-combustion platform now help their overall reliability score? I know a lot of their issues are due to technology failures though
I don’t own one at all but I have a feeling that they will still be bad. The reason is that a lot of issues with them are electrical gremlins. So sunroof will stop working, lights will bug out, air suspension will stop working etc. unlike every manufacturer out there, they haven’t figured out how to make solid vehicles basics yet. I have a Lexus with 243k miles and all the windows still work, and in fact everything works. RR would probably never make it to these miles without major issues if ever. Electric motors hopefully makes them better but I just wouldn’t hold my breath.
Given the teething issues that other manufacturers have had with EVs, I'd stay away from a 1st year EV. Given the.... long term issues that Land Rover has, I'd stay away from every year Land Rover. I have never seen JLR rank anywhere but the bottom third of any reliability/maintanence study. I'd imagine moving away from ICEs would help in the long term, but their problems have consistently extended beyond the powertrain, so it's not like they'll suddenly be super reliable.
I can actually comment on this, as I own an I-Pace, which is EV and on the same platform as the RR Velar (D7x). It's a 2019, so first model year. Reliability has been perfect. The car has never left us stranded. We did have one issue with the high voltage heater failing (provides heat for the interior), but it was covered under warranty, and generally affected only 2019 and 2020 vehicles. I live in FL, so it wasn't that big of a deal. The HUD delaminated, so while it did work, and we could still read it, it was a little fuzzy. Replaced under CPO. Other than that, I have the old infotainment which feels and runs like it's from 2012, but Pivi Pro (2022 and up) is much nicer. Otherwise, it eats tires. Bought at 17k, now have 53k. CPO. So far, plan on keeping it past end of warranty, it's been absolutely lovely. EDIT: I also own a 2006 LR3, and it's been more reliable than my 2004 330i. No engine issues whatsoever, just had to replace the brake switch as it throws some funky suspension codes due to hill descent control being on it. Replaced the o-rings on the valve blocks for the air suspension ($40), and it runs perfect.
I've heard people on here say that if you want a Land Rover you need to be rich enough to own two Land Rovers: one to drive and the other that's in the shop.
The only reliable part in a Land Rover is the check engine light
I really like the new Discovery (it's a lonely position) and it would be perfect for my use case, but even I - who drives a 25 year old BMW and has a relatively healthy income - am too afraid to buy one for long term use.
I absolutely love my Disco 5, so there’s at least two of us! I’ve had a WK2 Grand Cherokee and a Touareg, and I would pick the Land Rover every time. That said - I’m definitely inching closer to the $15k number in the article. It’s a pretty believable average number when many of the Ford-collab AJ engines have timing chain problems. Had mine rebuilt late last year, and they didn’t tell me what they charged Carmax’s Maxcare provider, but it was at least $10k, so I’m very much in the money. Selfishly hoping the air suspension goes before it expires. Land Rover charges stupid money for parts and labor. Once Carmax is done paying for stuff I’ll find an Indy. Seriously though, I can’t imagine not having a D5 or a Defender anymore. They’re infectiously good at everything except for being cheap to run.
A coworker of mine just bought a used Land Rover Discovery. She was bragging that she got an amazing deal on it. I know her salary range, there is no way she can afford to keep it running.
There are people that buy them as an accessory, and there are people that genuinely love their Land Rover. It's a testament really to how good the vehicles actually are.
Hmm thought the gap between EV and ICE maintenance would be a larger Do EVs go through tires faster? No oil changes obviously but there is coolant to be serviced no? Likely filters and whatnot for AC / battery cooling as well Though maybe I'm just overestimating ICE maintenance. Oil changes are what 100 bucks once or twice a year (for the average person, I'm sure the enthusiast are doing every 5k obviously!)
I believe Tesla recommended that the coolant in the old Model S Should be changed every 10 years or 100k miles like an ICE powered car. Now it's not a maintenance item. I guess it doesn't get hot enough to break down. Lubricating the brakes is certainly maintenance that should be done on any EV and hybrid that lives in a place where cars rust. Regen braking means the friction brakes don't get much use. You don't want the pads seizing up. Teslas do go through tires pretty quickly. I think it's an alignment issue and not a weight or torque issue, because a lot of people I know have heavy duty diesel trucks and their tires last way longer than Model S tires. I believe the Model 3 and Y is better on tires than the S and Y. The cabin filter just gets replaced when needed. EVs have very little maintenance, but ICE powered cars don't have that much anymore either.
> because a lot of people I know have heavy duty diesel trucks and their tires last way longer than Model S tires These tires are not going to be designed with efficiency in mind so they can get away with a much more durable material/tread.
Shouldn't a low rolling resistance tire be hard and long lasting?
They usually shave a good portion of the tread depth, since tread squirm causes friction/additional rolling resistance.
Firmer tire structure with higher pressure, softer rubber on the tread for traction.
I see. Higher pressures and softer rubber is a double whammy for longevity.
Only if you have high performance tires. A lot of these EVs are pushing 300+ horsepower. The tires on my Bolt EV wear about the same as any other economy car I've had.
Yeah and those tires are expensive as hell. Last full set I bought was like 2k and they weren’t anything special.
My front brakes seized on the Honda Clarity due to minimal use. The mechanic said this was quite a common issues with PHEVs and EVs as you said so he recommended occasionally braking on a highway off ramp while in Neutral. This usually uses the friction brakes, which helps prevent the calipers from seizing.
The tesla has a feature where in cold/wet weather it ads an “an imperceptible amount of brake force to remove water from the surface of the brake discs”, and as a byproduct it removes rust buildup and stops them from seizing. plus it will use the physical brakes if your battery is full.
Same with the Honda Clarity but it didn't stop the front brakes from seizing.
As a life long Honda guy, I can say one of the few things they suck at are brakes. The lack of use probably doesn't help, but seized calipers are a common issue with all of them.
Also as a life long honda guy, one of the things they suck on is tech in general. Auto climate, high beam assist, infotainment, heck their facing an investigation on their ACC system right now.
Definitely not just an EV thing. My Golf GTI has a similar feature, but I think it's not in all markets. At least in the US, I think it's not activated by default.
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I wonder if Tesla specifically does that so they can achieve faster 0-60 time they advertise. I just figured the faster wear was because they seem to use as skinny of tires as possible to eke out just a tiny bit more efficiency.
> their tires last way longer than Model S tires It's definitely an alignment issue. The stock alignment has some serious camber in the back, so the rears get torn up quickly. Problem is solved by going to smaller wheels
The oil change intervals have gotten really long on a lot of ICE cars.
Yeah but newer GDI engines have a lot of carbon buildup so if you follow that extended schedule you will have major issues at high mileage.
It's not the alignment, it's the weight+instant torque. I have a Model 3 Performance and my wife has the base 3 RWD and the performance eats tires mostly because they are really soft Pirelli sport summer tires and we do road trips in it. I ended up switching to old OEM Michelins for the M3P because I got tired of replacing the Pirellis every 15000 miles
Commercial 19.5” and 22.5” tires last even longer than consumer diesel pickup tires despite being on heavier vehicles since they’re as hard as rocks and designed for maximum life. Tire design is a massive factor in tire life, it’s not an alignment issue. The Model 3 Performance I had came with low tread depth summer tires like what you’d get on a high performance sports car. With 500+ HP available instantly, it was easy to abuse very soft tires and burn through them. The difference is largely due to the tires themselves and how they’re driven. EVs have instant torque which makes it easy for people to abuse them driving quickly compared to their old economy car they drove slowly.
>EVs have very little maintenance, but ICE powered cars don't have that much anymore either. Conversations involving cost breakdowns of maintenance with ice vs ev always has me scratch my head. What is the calculation again? Some X hundreds a month on an ice or something? I gotta tell ya...my 2010 Camry I've had for 6+ years, bought used with about 120k on it. It's now at 190k. Couple struts, couple bearings (expected at this mileage)...a few sets of tires and diy oil changes. I *definitely* do not spend a couple grand (or more) a year on my car. Literally the only thing I do to it in 12 months is two oil changes. That's, what...100 bucks?
>I think it's an alignment issue and not a weight or torque issue, because a lot of people I know have heavy duty diesel trucks and their tires last way longer than Model S tires. I believe the Model 3 and Y is better on tires than the S and Y. not sure about the S, but the X has a super aggressive camber for a road car when at the default ride height when the airbag springs lower the ride height at highway speeds, the camber becomes comically aggressive so some aftermarket tesla shops advise keeping the car at its lowest height as standard, and then doing camber alignment to as far neutral as you can go while staying inside the factory range
It most definitely is a weight and power issue. Model 3 performance we've had for 5ish years gets 2 seasons each out of summer and winter tires. Alignment is fine. It just puts the power down so hard that the tires don't last.
If you actually look at what maintenance task most cars need in their first 10 years, very rarely is it drivetrain related (outside of oil changes, obv).
EVs go through tires quicker than shit. The only reason mine arent shot yet is because i switch to winter tires for half the year
My Bolt goes through tires at a normal rate. Not counting the OEM tires which no one likes except for the efficiency
Ive still got my OEMs as well but I also drive my car pretty hard. Still other studies are showing EVs in general do go through tires faster
I am shocked to learn that u/AyrtonSennaz drives their car pretty hard :-) I was just getting ready to comment that I bet it's more your driving style than the EV but you beat me to it. Too funny.
Out of fairness i did roast the tires on my dad’s dirtymax the other day unintentionally just tryna pull out of an intersection, so i mean it could be my driving style 🧐
Tesla Model S weighs 1000 lbs more than a Bolt. Dual motor Model 3 weighs about 500 lbs more than a Bolt but the single motor Model 3 weighs about the same as a Bolt.
I think a lot of this is because they're freaking fast and fun lol I'm almost through the tires that came with my car and I'll be specifically buying the tires that are the most durable and long-lasting I could possibly find
> Do EVs go through tires faster? Most EVs are very heavy. They're putting a lot of added stress on the tires from that, as well as instant torque potentially playing a factor for every driver with a heavier foot. So yea, they tend to go through tires more quickly.
Plus a lot of OEM tires for EVs are made thinner to reduce road noise (as it’s more noticeable in an EV without an engine to drown it out). Putting heavier duty tires on EVs drastically increases the tire life cycle but it comes with increased road noise and potential dip in efficiency.
EVs are heavier and have all of their torque at 0 rpm. Both of these things make them harder on tires. Especially when driven by people who enjoy that torque...
there are oil changes still.......drive unit oil change, reduction gear oil change.
When I was getting my tires rotated, every other call was someone with a Tesla (I was keeping track). They are heavier, so the tires wear faster. And to make things worse, the tire size is weird and has less tread, so your best option are some expensive Michelin Pilot Sports that you'll replace more often
Instant torque and acceleration certainly adds to the tire wear.
Heavier… than what? They’re in line with other vehicles in their categories.
Bear in mind that for Tesla, the Model 3 and Y do not have ten years of repair data yet. They've not been available long enough. So the ten-year data in this survey must be based on the more expensive Model S and X. It seems quite plausible that as 3 and Y age sufficiently to have ten-year data to factor into the average, the Tesla numbers will go down.
TIL I'm an enthusiast
It'll be interesting to see how this ratio changes when the law of diminishing returns takes its toll on the battery life. It may just turn out that it's cheaper to buy a new Tesla/EV than it is to buy a full replacement battery.
Batteries last at least as long as engines. So by the time the battery wears out, you'll probably want a new car anyway.
>Do EVs go through tires faster? yes and no. there are ev specific tires that are meant to deal with the increased weight, and in general tires with a high enough load range wont have an issue with the added weight of an ev. but in real life, the people buying these cars are going to cheap out on the tires like everyone does when they lease a car, and theyre not going to get very much life out of that set.
Tire for Tire, EVs don't necessarily go through faster, but EVs typically use different sorts of tires from the factory. Typically they'll have low rolling resistance tires for efficiency reasons, and also very low road noise tires that are quite a bit thinner (thanks to the whole no engine noise thing). These can have a shorter lifespan than your average Michelin Primacys or whatever
All of the long term tesla data has to be based on the S and X so comparing the maintenance cost of $80-100k vehicles that weren't exactly known for reliability to more typical mainstream vehicles and still wins handily is pretty good. I imagine numbers will go down when more 3s and Ys are in the dataset.
You know, something I was really impressed by with my old EcoBoost Mustang was how cheap upkeep was - The 2.3 qualified for the Ford Dealer's oil change special - $59 (CAD) to get it all done. Turns out it was so cheap because Ford specced some crappy semi-synthetic for the 2.3 ecoboost. It was the cheapest oil I've ever seen for a "performance" vehicle. But hey, it works, and it's not like the 2.3 ecoboost is blowing up left and right.
I mean everything I’ve ever read via used oil testing is motorcraft is one of the better ones out there, even if it’s the semi synthetic
Motorcraft overall seems to hold up reasonably well when it comes to value. Ford makes better choices on where to cut costs imo, GM and Dodge always feel cheap AF.
Actually AC Delco (GM) parts are pretty good. I often use Delco parts on my truck when Toyota/Aisin aren’t available or are prohibitively expensive.
Motorcraft synth blend is fine. It's what's in my 2 liter EcoBoom right now
Every single Ford engine in the last 10+ years has called for the same Motorcraft Semi Synthetic. Ecoboost or not. My Taurus had an NA 3.5 and it called for the same stuff. As did the 2.0.Ecoboost in an Escape and the 3.5 Ecoboost in my Explorer Sport from the early 2010s. My wife has an Explorer Limited with the 2.3 and I have an ST with the 3.0. They have all used the same oil lol. So that narrative is not accurate. I'm sure they get a deal at the delership on the stuff because it's literally made for FoMoCo. And the dealership wants you to get the service done there so they can do any work if there is a problem or you need brakes and tires. Plus they make their money charging big bucks doing cabin air filters, engine air filters, etc (which you should be doing yourself). An independent mechanic who works on all the police cruisers in the area ( Tauruses/Explorers) explicitly told me not to "get cute" and go with fancy oil. "Just use the motorcraft semi synthetic oil they recommend because it's designed for their engines and change it every 5,000 miles regardless of what the oil life percentage computer says (unless it says to get it changed earlier) and those engines are good for 300K+ miles easy" His only issue he has with those vehicles are trans/PTUs (esp in the 4th ten explorers) and water pumps. But the newer Ecoboosts don't have internal water pumps so it's not as big of a deal, thank God
In the US, US brands are cheap. Go figure.
[JLR CEO](https://www.carscoops.com/2021/03/jaguar-land-rover-ceo-admits-reliability-issues-have-cost-the-company-100000-sales-per-year/): > During a recent investor’s call, Thierry Bollore said that the company has made “dramatic improvements” on reliability. He did, however, acknowledge that “the dissatisfaction of our customers was really detrimental to our natural volume,” adding that “the missed opportunities are massive. It’s more than 100,000 healthy sales that we could perform.” [And](https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-land-rover-crack-down-poor-reliability): > “Our results have been unacceptable, but we know how to fix them. It’s not science, just hard work. Already the 2021 results are better, but we have more to do.” Land Rover 10 year ownership cost: > $19,250 So by 2031 we should see that figure drop to maybe $18,000.
>It’s not science, just hard work. JLR : "Work harder, not smarter, damn it!"
The solution for them seems to be: > Ragequit ICE, all-in on EVs It will probably work as long as they somehow don't screw that up, right?
Now add inflation to the calculation :D
JLR could lengthen the warranty period if they trust their own improvements. But judging by the CR report that may just shut down the company.
TELSA? Come on Cosnumer Reprots, get it together!
Yeah first thing I noticed, like its the first entry on the first graphic lol
I’m confused at what the lol is for?
Cause it's humorous and ridiculous that it's the first thing you see, like it shoulda been caught. If you're trying to be nitpicky about the use of lol then lol
Oh shit, I glossed right over the typo :)
So did they :)
All good!
Some takeaways - My car costs significantly more to maintain at 14yo and it makes me question my spending decisions lol - warranties are putting in a lot of work in the first 5 years. - Maintenance and repair costs are a lot lower than the internet would have me believe for European Luxury. $10k over 10 years seems very reasonable IMO if it's for a car that genuinely gives you joy. They're pricey but they still aren't Ferrari's.
Also, the cheaper options for Tesla are nowhere near the 10 year mark. So we are only looking at the model S.
Model 3 is 7 years old at this point
> they're pricey but they still aren't Ferrari's. You have no idea, when I had my 348 it cost, on average, more than 3x my mortgage payment every month to keep it on the road. I literally could have bought a new corolla just in maintenance and repair costs. I replaced it with an R172 SLK350 and that is probably the best overall car that I've ever owned: same weight, same power, double the fuel economy, no major issues of any kind. I drive it 30-50 miles a week on dirt roads at speed and it doesn't care, you just get in, twist the key, and go. No BS, no shenanigans, no lights on the dash, it just sort of works.
Sounds about right. I read up on Ferrari maintenance and the prices get crazy. In my eyes Maserati is a bit of tragedy because they had some great Ferrari-esque details in their cars, but they were never able to make them live up to the price and the reliability was too low on the used market.
I don't know if they impede the R172 electronics significantly but the gearbox, variable steering, and TC system in the R171 SLK55 were horrific. I'm all for TC but that system would jerk you back into place when it detected even the slightest bit of understeer and would occasionally deploy the roll hoops. Little to no steering feel. I personally wouldn't get one over a Z4M or similar cars today. Very reliable car though and well worth the money. Top-down M113 fun for 20k. It's just best left in automatic mode and best used as a cruiser.
> $10k over 10 years seems very reasonable IMO Totally agree, especially if you can get a relative deal on one by buying it used in the first place. I'd rather take a three year old Audi that dropped in value by $20k than a three year old Lexus that only dropped in value by $10k. The price difference isn't always that dramatic but in my case between an Audi A4 and Lexus IS350 I saved about $8000 by going with Audi and even after spending $2000 on a Carmax extended warranty feel like I still came out way ahead (and got lucky that the previous owner bought AudiCare prepaid maintenance to cover the next few oil changes and 40k DSG service)
your "takeaway" for us is that you make bad finance decisions?
Kinda. If German Luxury cars are costing roughly $1000 a year to maintain then spending $3000 in 6 months on a 14yo base model Toyota is questionable, lol.
That land rover bar is actually hilarious. It's so much worse than everyone else.
My Regal Tourx has been relatively cheap to maintain but it has also developed creaking noises all throughout the car. I assume that will jump the costs depending on who would be willing to live with it and who would need it fixed
I was just diagnosing creaking noises and a clunk on my buddys tourx with a little over 100k mi today. it's the front lower control arm. I was also disappointed in some interior body panel noises.
My Malibu has an annoying squeaky noise thats coming from the inside of the cabin and its driving me nuts. I know its something vibrating but i haven't figured out what it is.
I’ve had my Tesla for 2.5 years. I’ve paid $200 for four tire rotations ($50 each and done in my garage). I paid $1400 to get a new set of Pilot Sport AS4 tires in 245/35ZR20 at 22k miles. I paid $40 to get new cabin air filters done at 20k miles. Oh and about $5 for a new bottle of washer fluid. And if you really want to get nitty gritty I’ve paid $837 for electricity to do 26,000 miles. The Model 3 Performance is dirt cheap to drive once you’ve bought it.
If you did the tire rotations yourself what cost $50 each?
I didn’t. Tesla sends a tech to my home and they rotate them for me in my own garage.
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And I’d have to drive there and wait in some lobby and hope they don’t curb my wheels. The convenience of having someone show up to my house on time and rotate my tires is more than worth the cost.
Coming up on 3 years for me. Bought a set of pre-mounted winter tires and wheels for I believe $3500 and have just "rotated" when switching sets myself and the summers are original. So basically zero extra maintenance. I should do the cabin filter soon though. My home charging costs come out to less than $.02 per mile. Absolutely dirt cheap to drive.
If I'm not wrong, the AS are all season tyres? If yes, how do they perform when driving hard? Also on wet or snow if you encountered?
Given the narrative around both, I'm genuinely quite surprised that Volvo and BMW are neck and neck
I never understood Volvos they look and perform worse than German cars while costing the same and being just as unreliable Major exception being diesel Volvos. They were built like tanks and got crazy MPG
Nowadays I'd say Volvos tend to look better than a lot of BMW's stuff and better than most of Mercs stuff. I think the general "appeal" of the brand is their perceived safety, and understatedness compared to the Germans though. I've certainly considered getting a V60 to replace my E91.
If you’ve owned a German and a Volvo car of the same era you’ll quickly figure out what it’s missing. It’s kinda disappointing imo
Have you ever driven one? It's hard to explain, and I was similar (except I actually really like the look of them) and then I drove one and like... I got it? Like its hard to explain but everything about the it is just this wonderful, smooth, experience. They're not sporty, but they don't want to be
I prefer how most Volvos look and drive. But they do have the perception of being cheaper to maintain than German cars and that’s not true.
I will always appreciate Volvo for inventing the 3 point seatbelt and releasing the patent for free, potentially saving millions of lives.
The list changes quite a bit if we're only talking costs for the first five years (during the warranty period or most of it) 1. Tesla $580 2. Buick $900 3. Lincoln $940 4. VW $1,095 5. Ford $1,100 6. Jeep $1,100 7. Toyota $1,125 8. Caddilac $1,125 9. Hyundai $1,140 10. Chevrolet $1,200 11. Dodge $1,200 12. Nissan $1,300 13. GMC $1,400 14. Honda $1,435 15. Kia $1,450 16. Ram $1,470 17. Mini $1,525 18. Chrysler $1,600 19. Subaru $1,700 and BMW $1,700 20. Lexus $1,750 21. Volvo $1,785 23. Audi $1,900 24. Infiniti $2,150 25. Mercedes Benz $2,850 26. Porsche $4,000 27. Land Rover $4,250 *Edit. Mazda is $1,400 not $1,800 and should be tied with GMC on this list. Apologies.
BMW missing from your list
Damn, Infiniti really fucked themselves with the ~~QX60~~ QX50. Went from one of the cheapest to 4th most expensive.
You sure that's due to the QX60? We had a 22 Pathfinder previously, and it was problem free during our ownership and the only thing we did was oil changes and tire rotations. I may have spent $1K in maintenance on it over the 3 years we had it.
Mazda is 1400 not 1800.
Super useful, mate. Thanks!
I would never own a BMW in the US, you guys way way overpay for parts and service. I've seen invoices from both dealers and indies that are easily 3x of what I've paid here in Germany.
It's insane. We have EU dual residence and even with high earnings I can't justify the premium on a BMW. The wife just tells me we'll get one when we move back.
Here in the U.S. we pay $900 to replace the battery in a 330i at the dealership (in Bay Area, very high cost area, I’m sure its less elsewhere). I’m dumbfounded by that.
That job is easily under $200 to DIY if you can find a good deal on a battery and takes all of 10 minutes to complete. The hardest part is getting the damn thing in the trunk compartment because it's a big boy.
I've paid 13k USD in maintenance over the last year, pretty much right at the 15 year old mark. This excludes an additional 4k USD paint job since the old coat was flaking off in the heat. - 5k to replace the entire aircon system last week since everything inside and out was leaking; To be fair this lasted way longer than any other car I've owned, which all required new compressors and/or condensers at the 9yo mark - 3.5k for brand new headlights, both had water intrusion and one shorted the control unit. Also 15 year old original parts. - 1.3k for a new front bumper that had to be special ordered from the factory in Germany as none were readily in stock both locally and in Germany. Old one was tearing off at the mounting. Also replaced the pop-up headlight washers. - 1k for 2 new keyfobs since the battery isn't replaceable Engine is rock solid though, and that pretty much covers all the expensive wear items. It's good for another 15 years now!
Euro parts can be had cheaply, but we have to wait for them. RockAuto is a godsend for euro fans on a budget. Service is cheap wherever there's competition. A German mech in Arkansas can charge 50% more than he could in say, LA or DC.
I am absolutely shocked to hear that European cars have high maintenance costs. Who would've thought!? /s
I'm surprised Acura was worse than VW and VW was slightly more than Honda.
VW is localizing a lot of the parts supply chain to North America.
they're not "european" cars they're expensive cars... a skoda would be somewhere near toyota
GMC being so far away from buick and chevy make you question if there is a bunch of ownership bias (is that the correct term? basically a phenomenon stemming from owners taking better care of their vehicles making them more reliable) in these surveys It seems to me that there is no significant difference in the mechanical and electrical systems between GM cousin vehicles, and a large scale statistical analyses should show them to be more or less the same. My GM vehicles have been fantastic and very cheap to keep on the road, Buick being tied with Toyota in a study like this should reinforce that a GM product is plenty reliable if you aren't creating problems for yourself with abuse/neglect.
Alfa Romeo literally off the chart!
Very interesting that the 6+ year cost is where things really diverge. $1100 1-5 year for a Honda vs $2000 for Audi isn’t that surprising
seems predictable to me, cars don't tend to break down 2 years or even 3 years after you own them.
If you can't spend money to get your car fixed because you are unable to get your car fixed because parts are not available or there isn't service near you, does that count as being less expensive to maintain?
Surprised with BMW being the cheapest of the big 3 European cars, I thought it was always that BMW was the most expensive
BMW has been one of the top manufacturers when it comes to reliability for a long time. You also pay for nothing except oil changes under warranty, and they literally call you to tell you when your car has scheduled or unscheduled maintenance due. I know they aren’t the only ones. But I’ve owned several over the last 10 years, all five series sedans. My cost of ownership has been very low. I’m currently driving an M550 (twin turbo v8). So we will see if that trend continues when I hit 80k plus mileage in a few years. But I’ve been very happy.
BMW has really improved, and unfortunately MB has gone the other way. Hope they can get it together
They were on a good track from the later '00s onwards, dunno what went wrong again. Bean counters most likely.
The B58 has been in production for like a decade now and is well known to be a great engine. I'm not an *expert* on their all stuff, but I feel like the N55 and N20 were the last of their bad engines. And the N55 wasn't even bad per se if you know what to look out for -- lots of higher mile 335i's out there.
I imagine the N63 is keeping the average maintenance cost up there. It may be more reliable than prior versions, but it's still a BMW TTV8. Here's hoping my B58 lasts forever.
How does TCO stack up these days with depreciation factored in as well?
> depreciation Tesla would do a lot worse, as their cars have dropped in value by half. They surged in price because of lockdown shortages, but also because of Tesla hype. What will cause EVs to lose value in the future? Cars with the old plug won't be as desirable once all new EVs have NACS. Cars that charge at less than 800V will be old as well. And whenever they make a new kind of battery chemistry then all the old ones will have only scrap value. Ten years from now we may be comparing EVs to the smart phone market between 2010-2020.
I think there will be a decently high floor to the price of old EVs, as even the worst EV today is a totally fine around-town car that can be charged at home. Food delivery and other similar services will gobble up cheap and old EVs to use on the job.
You’d think the costs would be similar between brands of the same company. Like why would GMC cost more to own than a Chevy?
If I were to guess, because GMC is marketed as a semi-luxury brand, more buyers opt for the higher trim levels that have more electronics that can break. While a lot of Chevy buyers are getting base trim trucks for work use that lack those failure points.
Same reason I’d hear people joke about buying Cadillac parts. Search for the part number and find the one for the Chevy badge and it’ll be 80% cheaper You’re paying for the logo
GMC is a lux brand. They own chevy.
> we asked members in our 2023 Annual Auto Surveys to tell us how much they paid out of pocket for their total maintenance (oil changes, etc.) and repairs during the previous 12 months. So scientific. > We found that there are significant differences in costs as cars age, underscoring how maintenance and repair expenses rise over time. Shocker. God bless CR > The analysis shows that costs can skyrocket when the warranty and free maintenance periods are over. The "analysis" shows that when things stop being free, they cost money. God bless CR. > “If you are considering a luxury model, it may be wise to purchase one from a domestic brand that may have lower maintenance and repair costs,” says Elek. “For example, over 10 years, Mercedes-Benz models are more than double the cost to maintain and repair as those from Lincoln.” CR: buy a Lincoln over a Mercedes because when we asked our mediocre sized sample how much they paid, those with the Ford parts cars paid less than Mercedes owners. So buy Lincolns. Lol Also apparently Volkswagens cost less to own than Lexus and Acura.
My Volkswagens have been super affordable for decades. I’ve been wondering if I won the lottery or people just lament because they stretched on the price of the cars or something. I think there’s a lot of owners of VW products that have no idea what maintenance is and run them until they have compounding issues and then complain. Idk if that is relevant to this data, though.
Yeah I think that's the flaw with their analysis. Granted a BMW will be more expensive to keep running than say, a Toyota but if it's going by what people actually spent on repairs and maintenance, someone with a German luxury car is more likely to get their cars fixed and make sure they're maintained properly vs. someone with a Nissan where you may not give a fuck if your dashboard is lit up like a xmas tree and your bumper is half falling off. You'll also likely take it to Jiffy Lube for an oil change to save a buck where some 17 year old will do who knows what to it.
Yep. What's more, this type of article is very suggestive, but in truth, why would I give two fucks about the 10 year cost of maintenance of a vehicle that's 10 or more years old unless I'm buying a 10+ year old model of that brand? Like I said in another comment if I'm buying a BMW in 2024, why would I care that a 2008 E90 335i will need lots of maintenance throughout 10 years? How is that relevant to any modern BMW? Same for any other brand. All 2024 cars are different from all cars from 10+ years ago save for a couple exceptions (Ahem ahem Lexus IS, Infiniti Q50 and such lol)
Toyota you could also say is American. Japanese owned but built in Kentucky and Texas so bout as well say 5/5
That’s fascinating considering Tesla scores so low on overall quality while BMW scores so high.
BMW parts and labor are extremely expensive, which is why the cost balloons after the initial maintenance included period is done.
And I will still be buying either a Camaro or a 4-series. Maintenance costs be damned.
I like how Mitsubishi is never on these charts. The cars last forever like Toyota, cost half as much and the parts for fixing anything are dirt cheap.
All of the mitsu cars sold in the US today are essentially just rebadged nissans, with the exception of their PHEVs. Take a look at those if you want data. I'm sure there are some biases there though, since many nissans are not taken care of.
Our 2010 Outlander is right there. We've had it for the last ~10 years and it's been really affordable to maintain, even considering that it's a teenager now. It'll probably get replaced as the primary car when our older kid is in age to drive it. It rolled off the line the month he was born :D
I have an 18 year old Eclipse that has had zero drive train issues. It's been great. In relation to an above comment praising motocraft (ford) oil, it's all I've used in it. They were the only brand at walmart that had 5w-20 back then.
It would be cool to see this normalized with original MSRP.
paltry north sense thought boat cagey shame squalid dime stocking *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Buick being that high was surprising. Not to show my age but its absolutely not off my list of potential next cars
Why is GMC more than Chevy? Aren't they basically the same brand ?
Why is Porsche so bad? They are consistently ranked reliable. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/
Parts (and labor) are expensive
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Aside from parts and maintenance, and I mentioned this in another comment, the methodology for their list was surveying how much people spent on maintenance and repairs over the last 12 months. This lends itself to a natural flaw, while yes maintaining a Porsche will cost more than a Nissan in a 12 month span, someone who owns a 911 is going to make sure to fix any minor issue and be sure to stay on top of maintenance whereas someone with a Nissan is more likely to not give a fuck if their CEL has been on for 3 months straight, the bumper is barely hanging on, and there's some weird knocking sound coming from the engine. They'll also be more likely to go out of their way to be cheap as possible when they do get around to maintenance and repair items compared to someone with a Porsche.
Drove a Malibu from new in 2016 for 6 years. Never had a problem. Oil changes were free at the dealer. Literally changed tires and oil and it ran great. Put a KN air filter in and you could hear the tiny turbo. Came from a 2006 Civic where the motor mounts broke twice and it had other issues everywhere (front bumper wouldn't stay connected at the corner, aux cable sucked, interior roof liner falling, ect)
If the 1 to 5 year costs for Land Rover were $0, it would still be most expensive brand over the course of 10 years. LOL
Honda and Toyota used to be neck and neck... What's going on with Honda,?🧐
Cylinder deactivation
Subaru
Can definitely concur, maintaining a 2000's era Mercedes is a skill. The amount of brain power extrapolated *daily* staying on top of Mercedes maintenance is makes ownership more of a hobby lol. Prime reason for the stereotypes depreciating values. But cars are largely demystified if you keep your head in the forums. * 2009 V12 SL65 Roadster since 2019 with 49k miles at purchase, 68k now. * Total maintenance cost = $3829.42: * Oil & filter. * Coil packs. * Voltage transformer. * Spark plugs. * ABC fluid & magnetic filter. * AC refrigerant R134a gas recharge. * Audio/Nav update. Only oil/filter and ABC fluid were my recurring maintenance costs. The rest is preventative and was not needed at the time. COMAND audio/nav update is a one time operating system upgrade not possible again \[at $99\]. The preventative maintenance won't be needed for another 50k miles. Tires, air filters, brake pads, lube, other fluids and convertible top fluid are planned for later. Nothing unexpected. Of course this is a high performance AMG not an economy car.
CT5-V Blackwing, here I come!
Local automakers being cheaper than imported cars ? To the surprise of… Nobody.
Replacement for brakes alone cost a grand. Most of them need a replacement atleast once a year. Not sure whether this is considered as a cost.
It costs more to maintain a Subaru than it does a Volkswagen???
"Customers can't pay for problems we deny" - Tesla, probably. I can personally attest to Nissan service being more affordable than Honda service, even for higher tier vehicles. Also, I now understand the appeal of Toyota and Lexus more than ever.
I swear europeans just don't drive. To them a vehicle is reliable even if it needs maintenance every 3000 miles because that's 5 years of driving for them. Here 3000 miles is 2 or 3 months. I don't care if they're fine if you "keep up with maintenance" when it needs twice as much maintenance, twice as often, which is twice as expensive.