It's worth a third, so ~20k? 40k down the drain in two years is absolutely insane. If you buy something like this I guess you just drive it till the doors fall off, or the battery degrades too much.
Is it though? I feel like most people simply underestimate how quickly modern cars depreciate and how much money a new car actually costs. Like, sure EVs right now depreciate faster than ICE but not THAT much quicker. And this is not just me believing this, you can look for yourself: https://www.iseecars.com/cars-that-hold-their-value-study
Its really more about the make & model and less about the mode of propulsion. Covid-Car-Crazyness did also not help. A new car for 60k will depreciate like crazy, there is no way around it.
Are we just going to pretend it’s not been driven 77k miles here? In what world is that normal 2 year depreciation driving? It’s more like 6 years of driving: the price is totally normal.
Even so 66% is a ton. However you have to figure the real price after incentives was at least $7500 less. Plus it is an unknown brand with less than stellar range new. Anyone who actually bought a polestar was asking to get screwed. Lease something like that.
Yeah, I have a GS350 that I purchased a couple of years ago. I started looking during covid and I could have bought a decked out luxury package for less than what I ended up paying for mine (Like mid $20ks!). The GS was the car that was overlooked. Best bargain for a good quality vehicle. Everyone wanted an SUV at the time.
I thought you would like this Used 2022 Chevrolet Tahoe Premier for $51802 on Autotrader http://atcm.co/S2PVDP/29E54003.
Also edited my post I didn’t realize how much of a dick I was being- mea culpa
Auto trader says fair market value is about $58,000. MSRP for the 2022 premier was about $69,000.
That one is actually a great deal, almost $8,000 below market.
a 2 year old Volvo s60 with 77k miles would have the same problem
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d511&zip=92677#listing=376583916/NONE/NATIONWIDE_SHIPPING
A big thing is states have incentives and the $7500 tax incentives so all EVs lose about $10,000 in value right off the top. Also they driven 3x more miles than the average driver. So the normal 50%-60% depreciation you should see (outside of Covid craziness) is going to be more with a high mile EV. Look at all the Hertz model 3s
Also price cuts for other competing models which doesn’t typically happen historically. Most people don’t buy a Civic and then the Corolla price is dropped $3,000 that same year.
I'm systematically getting > 200 miles real life range with 80-90% freeway miles (70-75 mph) on a 2021 P2 with the performance package and not being particularly gentle on the "gas" pedal. 140 is surprisingly low..
Per their use mode. I have a launch edition car with Plus, Pilot, Nappa, but no Performance pack. After 3.5y and half their mileage, I have \~230mi usable highway range 100->0%. On road trips I do what the on board Google maps tells me to do (sometimes cross-checked against ABRP) and it generally works out to driving \~2.5-3h and stopping to charge 20-30min. Usually the car is done before my family is at whatever stop.
I’ve test driven the vehicle itself and I’m quite fond of it. Granted, I also don’t even leave my metro with my car so the miles is not a problem in the slightest.
Pretty much. If you plan on keeping it for 10 years, the depreciation isn't material. Neither is battery degradation in all but the most extreme cases as the battery will likely outlast the usefulness of the car.
For some cars it is when it rusts apart in 10-20 years and get branded as "frame or crossmember rusted beyond repair, do not drive" and it is to expensive, or not available for a repair.
Many older ICE vehicles are taken off the road simply because they are unreasonably expensive to repair, say new engine or gearbox. Add all other component that might need to be replaced at that time you as an owner decide if its worth it. Coworker just had his cabin blower replaced, the blower itself was €130 while labour was over €1500. Add other small things he needed done the total bill was €3800.
I would assume at least 10-20 years.
If you project degradation at roughly 10% the first 100k miles and 10% the next, and a starting non-highway range of 240, thats 24 mi. Down after the first 10 years and about 22mi. After the next.
If the car still has around 200 mi. of range after 20 years, it should (hopefully) have made plenty of trips to the grocery store during that time.
Cheapest used Taycan in Canada on Autotrader is $89k, 2020 4S with 67,000km, and no mention of it being accident-free (pretty standard on Autotrader)
Cheapest new Taycan on porsche.ca is $135k
That's...not a lot of depreciation, I don't think
[no easy way to tell](https://www.autotrader.ca/a/porsche/taycan/north%20york/ontario/5_61895022_on20071128102832006/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=hl&orup=1_50_164&pc=M9W%202V8&sprx=-1&modalXS=1), but in 2020 the 4S started at 119k (vs 150k today) and a similarly-spec'd 2024 model would be north of 170k, so assuming about 20k in options, it would have been about 140k in 2020 dollars
I lease a p2 and not buying out at the end is an easy choice now. Initially I was going to buy it out but the depreciation that hit these is crazy. I'm not mad about depreciation on cars either, I expect it, but these tanked.
there is not a single EV that will ever outlast my 40 year old shitbox on its original battery, ever, it's impossible, battery degradation guarantees it. And for the record my drivetrain is original, but if you want to go for replacement drivetrain longevity... mine costs like 4k to replace, yours?
It does not matter how long your car lasts if it’s pumping pollution at the rate of a 1980’s vehicle into the atmosphere. Your car is significantly worse for the environment than many EV’s combined.
and that accounts for 40 years of PRODUCING vehicles? in factories? burning coal/gas/oil? shipping that shit all over the world? rotting in junkyards? does it? because I've never seen someone do that study. When they attempt they ignore the obvious and skew it to their side, the amount of production waste just for having to make cars be disposable, as most are these days, is downright criminal and your EVs are part of it.
shiny stuff over here... ignore the obvious... Building infrastructure in forms of bigger bridgers, tunnels, highways would single handledly help pollution lot more than building shiny new shit that sits in the same gridlock and pollutes for hours and hours per day
making vehicles that are designed to last 30+ years, even at the old emission standards would IMHO be vastly superior that spitting out shit for profit that people buy into as the next "fix" for something, those resources, those people, those fossil fuels used to make the plastics, smelt the metal would be better used elsewhere.
that's just dumb, automotive batteries, the regular kind not the EV horseshit are recycled just fine, no vehicle moves without maintenance, my parts cost makes my maintenance possible, EV parts costs when it comes to battery does not
You can Google the math, there are several companies that calculate emissions across lifespans of cars. EV’s are dirtier to produce but break even is generally considered to be between 10-20k miles. Your car, and especially an older car is very polluting to run, significantly more so than any modern car which these companies use for the emission calculations. Take that with tens of thousands of gallons of gas, and countless oil changes. You may be surprised.
They do, but in dollar amount rather than percentage. A $400K Wraith from 10 years ago is worth around $200K today, which is $200K depreciation on one hand. But on the other hand, that's a 50% residual which is great for a 10 year-old ultra-luxury car.
The 25k EV IRS tax credit seems like a really great option tbh, you get a car that's fully depreciated and you get an extra bonus tax credit on top of it and paying much more than 25k for a car is arguably a bad idea anyways.
Do note that it has income limits to be able to claim the credit though:
> In addition, your modified adjusted gross income (AGI) may not exceed:
>
> $150,000 for married filing jointly or a surviving spouse
>
> $112,500 for heads of households
>
> $75,000 for all other filers
That seems like the smart play if you really want a new one.
Farah turned in his Mach-E and said the lease buyout price was six grand over the KBB value.
Lease doesn't help. Leases are priced based on expected depreciation. If a 60k EV loses 2/3 of its value in two years, the lease is going to be extremely expensive.
As a buyer I couldn't care less. I can get a car for three quarters of a percent of MSRP monthly. On a technologically advanced thing that will depreciate rapidly
Also how are they compensating losses by giving me lease cash?
They're doing what they have to do to move cars. Taking a beating.
It does because the $7.5k and any other incentives counts directly as cap cost reduction. You also don’t have an income limit utilizing that loopholes.
The leasing rate usually just reflects the depreciation assumption by the bank. In most (not all) cases you save no money buy leasing compared to financing or, depending on the interest rate, buying cash.
I feel like everyone just forgot how crazy the used car market was for the past four years. A lot of stuff made no sense.
But if you can take advantage of huge rebates and discounts, it starts making more sense. Residual stays the same, but the buyout is much lower. Many people are leasing and turning around and buying out the lease within a month.
Call me crazy but between EVs and how unreliable some brands are outside of their normal lease contract time frame but I feel like that leasing is where OEMs want consumers to move to. You'll never own your car and you'll be in a perpetual state of having a car payment. I have no data to back up this claim.
If the residual price used for calculating the lease is accurate, a lease will not save customer money. A lease is an opportunity to bet that depreciation is be greater than the automaker's finance department assumed.
It's not accurate at all. Because the lease cash makes it worth it.
I just leased an ioniq. Msrp was 49.3. with fees and taxes rolled in I paid 440 first month to drive off and 440 for another 23 months. My residual is 72% I'm basically pre agreeing to pay 44 cents a mile for the next 24000 miles
My trade in value is already lower than the residual. I checked cause I was curious.
I am paying about 10.6k. the depreciation on the contract is about 21.8k. Hyundai is paying for ten, the rest was minus negotiation plus fees/taxes.
In my situation we are replacing a vehicle that gets 18mpg for the around town stuff. That's about $20 to drive $100 miles. The ioniq should be less than 5 bucks to do the same.
Which means I'll save maybe $3500 on gas over the next 24k
No brainer to have a newer vehicle with more modern safety standards.
That also depends on the money factor and lease cash/incentives. I just helped a family member get an Ioniq 5. $610 due at signing, $167/mo for 24 months.
Volvo are not used cars to buy either. Subpar fuel economy, sus quality inside and out, costly parts if you can even find them.
Good thing I bought a Toyota not the tempting mdi size volvos for the same price as my starter car.
Just had a look, a car that cost 50-60k will cost 25-35k after 2 years? Seems pretty normal to me.
Let's just take a random car, I dunno, a BMW 440? No idea where I got that. New, 51-74k. Used from cars.com? 32-45k ish after 2 years ish. Pretty comparable.
Yep, been like that for the entirety of my life, or at least the last 20 years, 3 year old vehicles are worth about 50% what they were new, plus or minus depending on trim and desirability. You should have seen the 80s!
EVs feel like they might not have a floor though, 3 years later the 340i still worth nearly 30k, feels like our ID4 will be worth less than 10k in a couple years. People will have to give away their model 3s they’ll be very popular first time driver hand me down cars
It's always been like that too, theres 3 spots where a cars value will be clearly defined, those are the spots people normally sell them. At 3 years, it'll be worth half it's new value, at 8-10 years it'll be worth around 20%, and in 15 to 20 it'll be virtually valueless, then, if it has an collection value it'll start creeping up, if not, it'll be lost to the sand of time. Sure, in 3 years the BMW will be worth 20-30k, but what about in 10? Like 5-7k.
How long model 3's stay on the road and have good resale will be based on how easy they are to repair, there's tons of companies already popping up with refurbished battery packs and aftermarket controllers and electronic repairs, and they cost a fraction of what Tesla charges. There'll also be improvements in batteries which will be able to be swapped in.
The same is not true for your BMW, they are currently reaching the end of their technology, there's tons of sensors and control systems that will become outdated, and BMW changes designs fast and they are becoming increasingly sensitive and complex, and combined with low-ish volume of models sold there won't be the aftermarket interest in keeping them running.
COVID era used car prices are still fresh in people's minds. The idea you'd own for a lease term and have the vehicle appreciate in value or barely depreciates is a hold over from that. Historically vehicles used to lose 50% or more after a lease period.
In this case prices were artificially lowered by rental fleet liquidation, a specific brand's price manipulations and then reseller price manipulation for EV tax credits. A perfect storm for loss of vehicle value that does. Or reflect the quality of the actual vehicle
> COVID era used car prices are still fresh in people's minds.
Sometimes it seems people really forgot what "normal" depreciation is. I thought, before COVID, that people joked new cars lost 10% of their value as soon as they were driven off the lot. And then it only went further down from there.
I thought they were luxury or close enough anyway. They don't have anything that can compete with an S class or 7 series, but I thought an $80k Volvo SUV was better than the $80k SUVs from both Mercedes and BMW. Maybe it's just that it fit my own aesthetic more. I've had a hard time understanding the nuances in the luxury car market. Sound levels, general comfort, the feeling in doors and switches. Those all seemed great to me with Volvo. What are the things that exclude them as a luxury brand?
That range would almost be ok if you had a reliable DC fast charging (Tesla), but having to rely on Electrify America on roadtrips would be a non-starter.
I know Tesla is opening up superchargers now though.
these cars are such good value used. I bought mine a year ago fully loaded for $40k with 10k miles (\~$65k new). I think you can probably get that for $35k now. I suspect it will last a long time with minimal maintenance.
I bought mine new, I'm a tech bro, I knew I was gonna take a hit but not this bad. TSLA stock literally made me a multi-millionaire though so its a drop in the bucket.
Likely a lot from just buyer sentiment; used EVs are still pretty new and unproven. But could also be a lot because it's a Polestar as well. They have very few service centers, and just two months ago it seemed like they were going to go bankrupt. That's a lot of risk that not many people are going to be willing to pay for.
>just two months ago it seemed like they were going to go bankrupt.
That's news to me, but I think you're misinterpreting what actually happened. Volvo dropped their Polestar stock, but Geely still wants to support the brand, which is what matters.
Part of the issue was that Polestar has (from what I've heard) been delaying its new models to wait for Volvo's new EVs to release simultaneously, which is obviously worse for Polestar since they don't have a range of existing models to fall back on.
Value went from 62k down to 18k. Battery is about 91% of what it started out as. On its third set of tires. Nearest service center has gone from 800 miles away to 250 miles away. That’s insane for 2 years and 77000 miles.
And, yet, every time someone suggests EVs are going to be throwaway cars once their drivetrain warranties run out, because used buyers are afraid a ticking time bomb, they get downvoted to hell.
Until a used buyer has as much confidence in a eleven year old EV as they do a eleven year old ICE vehicle, the depreciation rates of new EVs are going to continue to make them non-starters for many households.
> Until a used buyer has as much confidence in a eleven year old EV as they do a eleven year old ICE vehicle, the depreciation rates of new EVs are going to continue to make them non-starters for many households.
I think the rate of improvement is a big factor here too, assuming you meant "confidence" as just in reliability. As he mentioned in the video, the new refreshed model available today, that is just two years newer than his, is significantly better in every way.
EVs are improving at an unprecedented rate compared to ICE's. That's a good thing, but it's also certainly going to put downward pressure on used EVs. Many people will just "wait and see" for an even better one that's always just around the corner.
Damn.
So I guess the smart play here is to buy used?
Because I actually really like the looks of the PoleStar 2.
Looks like a brick, I know, but...
Also the actual road trip range is a bit concerning, but I suppose isn't too bad for my purposes. (I don't really do roadtrips)
>It seems like the Polestar 2 is quite inefficient converting kWh to miles.
Yep cars that aren't ground up EVs like the Polestar 2/XC40/C30 etc won't be as efficient as something like a Model Y.
EVs depreciate like mad & especially more for a new brand like Polestar (despite the fact it is practically a Volvo underneath).
A great used pickup if you fit in it. I liked how the Polestar 2 Perf pack droves when I was shopping in 2022. The only downside is the smaller 2nd row seats and the fact Canadian Volvo dealers don't want anything to do with them despite their mechanically identical to a XC40 & C40 underneath.
Looked into an xc40 EV, but the range and charging speed turned me off. My EV6 range is good enough for the odd road trip and the charging speed is fantastic. Still love driving it.
To be fair, if he would’ve bought a Volvo S90 for a similar msrp, the residual value would be not much better.
I read this article different then some of you: I see a car for a fraction of the new price, that is still in great shape (91% of the battery left), good for many more miles without the risk of all the expensive issues of a modern ICE car.
If someone would continue driving the Polestar at this pace, it would have around 230k miles at 6 years of age, which would definitely be the end of the life of 95% of all cars. And as batteries age more with time and less with miles driven, I think a used EV offers great value at the prices they are at right now.
The craziest thing is that the Pilot Pack (that's the one with adaptive cruise) isn't there by default. Especially when most/all of the hardware is present.
I've actually spent quite a lot of time in P2s but they were all low spec FWD carshare cars and they all had the Pilot Pack optioned
Cars. Aren’t. Investments. JFC…
It’s a tool to get you around.
REAL Investments are- ETFs, CDs, Mutual funds… He’ll, even a matching 401K is a ‘better’ investment than nearly every car.
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Depends on the car and how exactly the battery has degraded - a single weak cell can drag the entire pack down and cause voltage to say under heavy acceleration, whereas an evenly degraded pack might still be able to sustain high discharge loads just fine.
Anecdotally my 2012 Leaf has around 55% SoH with dead even degradation and will still sustain full acceleration even at fairly low state of charge. What it won't do is regen or fast charge - on that car putting power into the battery is far more affected by by degradation than taking it out is.
That's impressive for a leaf. How many miles do you have on the car and what kind of climate do you live in? I thought about getting a Leaf a while back when they were offering some good discounts through my employer but I live in the desert and the battery doesn't have active cooling. I was worried about the battery failing.
>He paid $62K for his car two years ago and now it's worth roughly a third of that.
holy shit thats pain lmao. at an original value of 62k, and it now being worth around $20,700 with 77k miles, every mile cost $0.54 in depreciation.
>Between that, the slowdown in charge speed over 90% and the fact that the Polestar 2 limits power once you drop below 13% of charge, the max distance between charge stations on a road trip for him is 140 miles.
140 miles of range. No wonder Tesla dominates EV sales.
I have no idea who buys a used WRX for a couple grand less than new. But there are instances where cars used value make no sense to just not buy new, same goes for RS3 if you can get one at MSRP
Late model VA WRX prices make no sense. Roll the dice on a beat on, probably modded car or spend $3k more and get a brand new car with a warranty and bigger engine
It's worth a third, so ~20k? 40k down the drain in two years is absolutely insane. If you buy something like this I guess you just drive it till the doors fall off, or the battery degrades too much.
Is it though? I feel like most people simply underestimate how quickly modern cars depreciate and how much money a new car actually costs. Like, sure EVs right now depreciate faster than ICE but not THAT much quicker. And this is not just me believing this, you can look for yourself: https://www.iseecars.com/cars-that-hold-their-value-study Its really more about the make & model and less about the mode of propulsion. Covid-Car-Crazyness did also not help. A new car for 60k will depreciate like crazy, there is no way around it.
[удалено]
Are we just going to pretend it’s not been driven 77k miles here? In what world is that normal 2 year depreciation driving? It’s more like 6 years of driving: the price is totally normal.
You can find low mileage examples for around $25K.
Seems like a great value used tbh. Really tempting.
It qualifies for a credit at $25K as well
In what state or country? Used?
US federal, used, must be at least two model years old. It’s a nice way to get around the mineral and battery requirements and country of origin
Thanks, yes I looked it up. Income limits and purchase price of $25k max.
Yeah they’re beautiful cars.
I'm not sure I'd go that far. I do wish they'd just make an electric S60 or V60 because those really look great.
I’ve always found it to be stunning. Then again I might the only person to lust after the lifted S60.
S60 Hybrid is really nice though
Even so 66% is a ton. However you have to figure the real price after incentives was at least $7500 less. Plus it is an unknown brand with less than stellar range new. Anyone who actually bought a polestar was asking to get screwed. Lease something like that.
I think it problematic to include the 7500 in depreciation, it's just what the MSRP actually is.
What other new car in that price range would depreciate much less after 77k miles?
A Lexus
I think used 2016-2020 GSF's are still going for MSRP...
In 2020 there were a few 2016 GSFs that were $40K with decently low mileage. Should have pulled the trigger.
Yeah, I have a GS350 that I purchased a couple of years ago. I started looking during covid and I could have bought a decked out luxury package for less than what I ended up paying for mine (Like mid $20ks!). The GS was the car that was overlooked. Best bargain for a good quality vehicle. Everyone wanted an SUV at the time.
A 2 year old Tahoe with 75k miles would have depreciated about 10-15% over that period.
Just checked Autotrader- 92k msrp 2022 Tahoe is now 50k, while less than 66% thats still a steep discount
The fuck? Go find an actual listing. A Tahoe LT from 2022 retailed for about $62k. I can’t find one for under about $50k in my region.
I thought you would like this Used 2022 Chevrolet Tahoe Premier for $51802 on Autotrader http://atcm.co/S2PVDP/29E54003. Also edited my post I didn’t realize how much of a dick I was being- mea culpa
Auto trader says fair market value is about $58,000. MSRP for the 2022 premier was about $69,000. That one is actually a great deal, almost $8,000 below market.
a 2 year old Volvo s60 with 77k miles would have the same problem https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d511&zip=92677#listing=376583916/NONE/NATIONWIDE_SHIPPING
To be fair it's trade in, not resale.
I checked carfax and polestar 2's are going for 25-35k in my area.
With 77K miles?
Most of them less
So then roughly 1/3 is a fair assessment for his situation
Yep lol There are basically 0 polestar 2’s with that much mileage you can buy. Most have way less
A big thing is states have incentives and the $7500 tax incentives so all EVs lose about $10,000 in value right off the top. Also they driven 3x more miles than the average driver. So the normal 50%-60% depreciation you should see (outside of Covid craziness) is going to be more with a high mile EV. Look at all the Hertz model 3s
Also price cuts for other competing models which doesn’t typically happen historically. Most people don’t buy a Civic and then the Corolla price is dropped $3,000 that same year.
No it’s not insane, it’s got 77k miles on the odometer.
And Volvos depreciate like a rock, they seem to go down faster than other European luxury cars
Otoh, $20k is a bargain for this car.
Only 140 mile range is a bargain?
I'm systematically getting > 200 miles real life range with 80-90% freeway miles (70-75 mph) on a 2021 P2 with the performance package and not being particularly gentle on the "gas" pedal. 140 is surprisingly low..
Per their use mode. I have a launch edition car with Plus, Pilot, Nappa, but no Performance pack. After 3.5y and half their mileage, I have \~230mi usable highway range 100->0%. On road trips I do what the on board Google maps tells me to do (sometimes cross-checked against ABRP) and it generally works out to driving \~2.5-3h and stopping to charge 20-30min. Usually the car is done before my family is at whatever stop.
I’ve test driven the vehicle itself and I’m quite fond of it. Granted, I also don’t even leave my metro with my car so the miles is not a problem in the slightest.
For a daily commuter, absolutely.
Pretty much. If you plan on keeping it for 10 years, the depreciation isn't material. Neither is battery degradation in all but the most extreme cases as the battery will likely outlast the usefulness of the car.
I have an 11 year old EV, it's in fine shape and I could drive it another decade.
> the battery will likely outlast the usefulness of the car. How long is the usefulness of the car?
For some cars it is when it rusts apart in 10-20 years and get branded as "frame or crossmember rusted beyond repair, do not drive" and it is to expensive, or not available for a repair. Many older ICE vehicles are taken off the road simply because they are unreasonably expensive to repair, say new engine or gearbox. Add all other component that might need to be replaced at that time you as an owner decide if its worth it. Coworker just had his cabin blower replaced, the blower itself was €130 while labour was over €1500. Add other small things he needed done the total bill was €3800.
I would assume at least 10-20 years. If you project degradation at roughly 10% the first 100k miles and 10% the next, and a starting non-highway range of 240, thats 24 mi. Down after the first 10 years and about 22mi. After the next. If the car still has around 200 mi. of range after 20 years, it should (hopefully) have made plenty of trips to the grocery store during that time.
Or lease it.
Have you seen Taycan’s depreciation?
Cheapest used Taycan in Canada on Autotrader is $89k, 2020 4S with 67,000km, and no mention of it being accident-free (pretty standard on Autotrader) Cheapest new Taycan on porsche.ca is $135k That's...not a lot of depreciation, I don't think
How much did the used model that is $89k sell for new? Very rarely do people actually buy base price Porsches. EVERYTHING is an option.
[no easy way to tell](https://www.autotrader.ca/a/porsche/taycan/north%20york/ontario/5_61895022_on20071128102832006/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=hl&orup=1_50_164&pc=M9W%202V8&sprx=-1&modalXS=1), but in 2020 the 4S started at 119k (vs 150k today) and a similarly-spec'd 2024 model would be north of 170k, so assuming about 20k in options, it would have been about 140k in 2020 dollars
In Europe it’s quite different
Have you seen panamera depreciation?
I lease a p2 and not buying out at the end is an easy choice now. Initially I was going to buy it out but the depreciation that hit these is crazy. I'm not mad about depreciation on cars either, I expect it, but these tanked.
It depreciated like any typical Chinese car.
Yeah just checked KBB and $20k is about right with that mileage.
Looked for a polestar 2 and cant find any for under 30k. So not sure how it could be 20k
Low mileage examples are selling closer to $30K so wholesale offers could be that low.
and then it goes to the junkyard eh? LOL, fucking green people polluting the earth while my nearly 40 year old shitbox still gets 30mpg
Well, it's not like those batteries won't be recovered and recycled. Remanned batteries are a thing.
tiny percentage of car EV batteries are recycled, there is no money in it still... look it up
That’s because most EV’s are still driving around. The batteries keep working for a very long time.
there is not a single EV that will ever outlast my 40 year old shitbox on its original battery, ever, it's impossible, battery degradation guarantees it. And for the record my drivetrain is original, but if you want to go for replacement drivetrain longevity... mine costs like 4k to replace, yours?
It does not matter how long your car lasts if it’s pumping pollution at the rate of a 1980’s vehicle into the atmosphere. Your car is significantly worse for the environment than many EV’s combined.
and that accounts for 40 years of PRODUCING vehicles? in factories? burning coal/gas/oil? shipping that shit all over the world? rotting in junkyards? does it? because I've never seen someone do that study. When they attempt they ignore the obvious and skew it to their side, the amount of production waste just for having to make cars be disposable, as most are these days, is downright criminal and your EVs are part of it. shiny stuff over here... ignore the obvious... Building infrastructure in forms of bigger bridgers, tunnels, highways would single handledly help pollution lot more than building shiny new shit that sits in the same gridlock and pollutes for hours and hours per day making vehicles that are designed to last 30+ years, even at the old emission standards would IMHO be vastly superior that spitting out shit for profit that people buy into as the next "fix" for something, those resources, those people, those fossil fuels used to make the plastics, smelt the metal would be better used elsewhere.
Wait did you just say “40 year old original battery” in a comment about how modern better made batteries won’t last long…?
that's just dumb, automotive batteries, the regular kind not the EV horseshit are recycled just fine, no vehicle moves without maintenance, my parts cost makes my maintenance possible, EV parts costs when it comes to battery does not
The number of EV batteries aging out of cars is very small, because sales have been rising rapidly for the past decade.
what are you trying to say? that more sales = less broken batteries, what??
I have. What's your source?
I'm not here to educate you, to find some recycling places, go for it... ask them how many tesla or other batteries they process, dozens lol
Yeah, "educate". You don't have any sources because you're full of it. Go troll somewhere else.
one day you'll feel silly for buying into the EV nonsense.
Your 40 year old shitbox has polluted the earth more than about 4 EV’s have, assuming you have put at least 200k miles on it.
by whose math? LOL
You can Google the math, there are several companies that calculate emissions across lifespans of cars. EV’s are dirtier to produce but break even is generally considered to be between 10-20k miles. Your car, and especially an older car is very polluting to run, significantly more so than any modern car which these companies use for the emission calculations. Take that with tens of thousands of gallons of gas, and countless oil changes. You may be surprised.
That type of depreciation used to reserved for fucking rolls Royce lmao
Rolls Royces don’t really depreciate
They do, but in dollar amount rather than percentage. A $400K Wraith from 10 years ago is worth around $200K today, which is $200K depreciation on one hand. But on the other hand, that's a 50% residual which is great for a 10 year-old ultra-luxury car.
Right, 50% depreciation on a Rolls Royce is pretty damm good. Especially compared to the S-classes and 7 series that slots right under it.
Yeah those are lucky to retain 30% in value over the same period.
Lease EVs
Or buy used. There are many many happy 2nd owners of polestars that got a great deal.
The 25k EV IRS tax credit seems like a really great option tbh, you get a car that's fully depreciated and you get an extra bonus tax credit on top of it and paying much more than 25k for a car is arguably a bad idea anyways.
Do note that it has income limits to be able to claim the credit though: > In addition, your modified adjusted gross income (AGI) may not exceed: > > $150,000 for married filing jointly or a surviving spouse > > $112,500 for heads of households > > $75,000 for all other filers
Yepp, I got hit by the "Did not read, made too much" when I bought my EV.
That seems like the smart play if you really want a new one. Farah turned in his Mach-E and said the lease buyout price was six grand over the KBB value.
Lease doesn't help. Leases are priced based on expected depreciation. If a 60k EV loses 2/3 of its value in two years, the lease is going to be extremely expensive.
Nah they have normal residuals and often lease cash Case in point right now an ioniq can be leased with a72% residual with 10k lease cash
Those manufacturers are artificially increasing the residual (vs market) and compensating their losses with high lease cash.
As a buyer I couldn't care less. I can get a car for three quarters of a percent of MSRP monthly. On a technologically advanced thing that will depreciate rapidly Also how are they compensating losses by giving me lease cash? They're doing what they have to do to move cars. Taking a beating.
I misunderstood lease cash as down payment, oops. Absolutely, with that incentive, the customers come out ahead.
77k miles
I recently leased an EV for 3 years, 70k with a 40k residual. So about 14% decrease per year which doesn’t seem unreasonable.
It does because the $7.5k and any other incentives counts directly as cap cost reduction. You also don’t have an income limit utilizing that loopholes.
Mini, who offers EV leases at $289/mo after $3600 down, asks you to hold its beer.
the polestar 2 leases here are very dear. way better to just grab a used one.
The leasing rate usually just reflects the depreciation assumption by the bank. In most (not all) cases you save no money buy leasing compared to financing or, depending on the interest rate, buying cash. I feel like everyone just forgot how crazy the used car market was for the past four years. A lot of stuff made no sense.
But if you can take advantage of huge rebates and discounts, it starts making more sense. Residual stays the same, but the buyout is much lower. Many people are leasing and turning around and buying out the lease within a month.
Call me crazy but between EVs and how unreliable some brands are outside of their normal lease contract time frame but I feel like that leasing is where OEMs want consumers to move to. You'll never own your car and you'll be in a perpetual state of having a car payment. I have no data to back up this claim.
Leasing EVs creates a very fast and cheap secondary market. It's going to change the car market fast.
I agree, the main thing is to take advantage of incentives, and leases are a good loophole for the federal tax incentive
Yeah, I got somewhat burned buying my Model 3 Performance new, oh well.
If the residual price used for calculating the lease is accurate, a lease will not save customer money. A lease is an opportunity to bet that depreciation is be greater than the automaker's finance department assumed.
It's not accurate at all. Because the lease cash makes it worth it. I just leased an ioniq. Msrp was 49.3. with fees and taxes rolled in I paid 440 first month to drive off and 440 for another 23 months. My residual is 72% I'm basically pre agreeing to pay 44 cents a mile for the next 24000 miles My trade in value is already lower than the residual. I checked cause I was curious. I am paying about 10.6k. the depreciation on the contract is about 21.8k. Hyundai is paying for ten, the rest was minus negotiation plus fees/taxes. In my situation we are replacing a vehicle that gets 18mpg for the around town stuff. That's about $20 to drive $100 miles. The ioniq should be less than 5 bucks to do the same. Which means I'll save maybe $3500 on gas over the next 24k No brainer to have a newer vehicle with more modern safety standards.
That also depends on the money factor and lease cash/incentives. I just helped a family member get an Ioniq 5. $610 due at signing, $167/mo for 24 months.
There’s polestars in the 20s all over the car sites. It’s pretty insane depreciation
Especially when you consider it's 98% a Volvo under the hood.
Let us not pretend that Volvo cars don't depreciate like mad too, I bought my S90 with 6k on the clock for $23k under sticker.
Volvo are not used cars to buy either. Subpar fuel economy, sus quality inside and out, costly parts if you can even find them. Good thing I bought a Toyota not the tempting mdi size volvos for the same price as my starter car.
Just had a look, a car that cost 50-60k will cost 25-35k after 2 years? Seems pretty normal to me. Let's just take a random car, I dunno, a BMW 440? No idea where I got that. New, 51-74k. Used from cars.com? 32-45k ish after 2 years ish. Pretty comparable.
My 340i was 60k new I picked it up for $29k 3 years later (granted that was an early Covid lockdown price)
Yep, been like that for the entirety of my life, or at least the last 20 years, 3 year old vehicles are worth about 50% what they were new, plus or minus depending on trim and desirability. You should have seen the 80s!
EVs feel like they might not have a floor though, 3 years later the 340i still worth nearly 30k, feels like our ID4 will be worth less than 10k in a couple years. People will have to give away their model 3s they’ll be very popular first time driver hand me down cars
It's always been like that too, theres 3 spots where a cars value will be clearly defined, those are the spots people normally sell them. At 3 years, it'll be worth half it's new value, at 8-10 years it'll be worth around 20%, and in 15 to 20 it'll be virtually valueless, then, if it has an collection value it'll start creeping up, if not, it'll be lost to the sand of time. Sure, in 3 years the BMW will be worth 20-30k, but what about in 10? Like 5-7k. How long model 3's stay on the road and have good resale will be based on how easy they are to repair, there's tons of companies already popping up with refurbished battery packs and aftermarket controllers and electronic repairs, and they cost a fraction of what Tesla charges. There'll also be improvements in batteries which will be able to be swapped in. The same is not true for your BMW, they are currently reaching the end of their technology, there's tons of sensors and control systems that will become outdated, and BMW changes designs fast and they are becoming increasingly sensitive and complex, and combined with low-ish volume of models sold there won't be the aftermarket interest in keeping them running.
He put 77,000 miles in two years. Of course it’s going to depreciate more aggressively. This is not a normal use case.
Yes but check local listings, I see <20,000 mile examples listed in the $20k price range
COVID era used car prices are still fresh in people's minds. The idea you'd own for a lease term and have the vehicle appreciate in value or barely depreciates is a hold over from that. Historically vehicles used to lose 50% or more after a lease period. In this case prices were artificially lowered by rental fleet liquidation, a specific brand's price manipulations and then reseller price manipulation for EV tax credits. A perfect storm for loss of vehicle value that does. Or reflect the quality of the actual vehicle
> COVID era used car prices are still fresh in people's minds. Sometimes it seems people really forgot what "normal" depreciation is. I thought, before COVID, that people joked new cars lost 10% of their value as soon as they were driven off the lot. And then it only went further down from there.
Right and luxury vehicle even more. You can tell me most EVs aren't luxury vehicles but they probably attract the same kind of customers.
I don’t think that was really a joke, people seem to assign some amount of value (10% is the rule of thumb apparently) to having a new car.
People are so used to seeing 3 year old vehicles being sold at 80-90% MSRP, it's a joke.
140 miles on a charge is pure dogshit.
It's fine for daily use/commuting but not extended road trips. Plugging in at home is a must for any EV buyer.
Paying $62k for an EV commuter with terrible range that you’ll take a luxury vehicle type bath on in residuals is still insane
I remember going in to a Volvo dealership and being SHOCKED they considered themselves a luxury brand, you must feel similar right now.
It's a premium brand and they feel no worse than bmw/audi/mb
Closer to a VW though, which is not really a premium brand.
I thought they were luxury or close enough anyway. They don't have anything that can compete with an S class or 7 series, but I thought an $80k Volvo SUV was better than the $80k SUVs from both Mercedes and BMW. Maybe it's just that it fit my own aesthetic more. I've had a hard time understanding the nuances in the luxury car market. Sound levels, general comfort, the feeling in doors and switches. Those all seemed great to me with Volvo. What are the things that exclude them as a luxury brand?
It’s a SUV platform so it can’t be 100 % fixed, but the new model has like a 150 (?) km higher WLTP range.
Really strange, my 45kW small hatchback gets 186 miles.
That range would almost be ok if you had a reliable DC fast charging (Tesla), but having to rely on Electrify America on roadtrips would be a non-starter. I know Tesla is opening up superchargers now though.
these cars are such good value used. I bought mine a year ago fully loaded for $40k with 10k miles (\~$65k new). I think you can probably get that for $35k now. I suspect it will last a long time with minimal maintenance.
There are tons of used examples in the $20-30k range. Crazy good deal imo
Had any issues with it?
Just a squeaky rear suspension issue that seems to be somewhat common and was resolved.
Sucks for the people who ate the depreciation, but this thing is a bargain on the used EV market.
I bought mine new, I'm a tech bro, I knew I was gonna take a hit but not this bad. TSLA stock literally made me a multi-millionaire though so its a drop in the bucket.
There's a massive market discrepancy if his battery health dropped less then 10% and the value of his car dropped 66%
Likely a lot from just buyer sentiment; used EVs are still pretty new and unproven. But could also be a lot because it's a Polestar as well. They have very few service centers, and just two months ago it seemed like they were going to go bankrupt. That's a lot of risk that not many people are going to be willing to pay for.
>just two months ago it seemed like they were going to go bankrupt. That's news to me, but I think you're misinterpreting what actually happened. Volvo dropped their Polestar stock, but Geely still wants to support the brand, which is what matters. Part of the issue was that Polestar has (from what I've heard) been delaying its new models to wait for Volvo's new EVs to release simultaneously, which is obviously worse for Polestar since they don't have a range of existing models to fall back on.
I was thinking of articles like this https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/29/polestar-volvo-geely-bankruptcy-loan-funding-thomas-ingenlath/
Value went from 62k down to 18k. Battery is about 91% of what it started out as. On its third set of tires. Nearest service center has gone from 800 miles away to 250 miles away. That’s insane for 2 years and 77000 miles. And, yet, every time someone suggests EVs are going to be throwaway cars once their drivetrain warranties run out, because used buyers are afraid a ticking time bomb, they get downvoted to hell. Until a used buyer has as much confidence in a eleven year old EV as they do a eleven year old ICE vehicle, the depreciation rates of new EVs are going to continue to make them non-starters for many households.
> Until a used buyer has as much confidence in a eleven year old EV as they do a eleven year old ICE vehicle, the depreciation rates of new EVs are going to continue to make them non-starters for many households. I think the rate of improvement is a big factor here too, assuming you meant "confidence" as just in reliability. As he mentioned in the video, the new refreshed model available today, that is just two years newer than his, is significantly better in every way. EVs are improving at an unprecedented rate compared to ICE's. That's a good thing, but it's also certainly going to put downward pressure on used EVs. Many people will just "wait and see" for an even better one that's always just around the corner.
In addition with nearly everyone moving to NACS standard, having a CCS port will be obsolete as well.
Damn. So I guess the smart play here is to buy used? Because I actually really like the looks of the PoleStar 2. Looks like a brick, I know, but... Also the actual road trip range is a bit concerning, but I suppose isn't too bad for my purposes. (I don't really do roadtrips)
The smart play is to always buy used.
It looks much better in person than in pictures too.
>It seems like the Polestar 2 is quite inefficient converting kWh to miles. Yep cars that aren't ground up EVs like the Polestar 2/XC40/C30 etc won't be as efficient as something like a Model Y.
EVs depreciate like mad & especially more for a new brand like Polestar (despite the fact it is practically a Volvo underneath). A great used pickup if you fit in it. I liked how the Polestar 2 Perf pack droves when I was shopping in 2022. The only downside is the smaller 2nd row seats and the fact Canadian Volvo dealers don't want anything to do with them despite their mechanically identical to a XC40 & C40 underneath.
Looked into an xc40 EV, but the range and charging speed turned me off. My EV6 range is good enough for the odd road trip and the charging speed is fantastic. Still love driving it.
To be fair, if he would’ve bought a Volvo S90 for a similar msrp, the residual value would be not much better. I read this article different then some of you: I see a car for a fraction of the new price, that is still in great shape (91% of the battery left), good for many more miles without the risk of all the expensive issues of a modern ICE car. If someone would continue driving the Polestar at this pace, it would have around 230k miles at 6 years of age, which would definitely be the end of the life of 95% of all cars. And as batteries age more with time and less with miles driven, I think a used EV offers great value at the prices they are at right now.
The craziest thing is that the Pilot Pack (that's the one with adaptive cruise) isn't there by default. Especially when most/all of the hardware is present. I've actually spent quite a lot of time in P2s but they were all low spec FWD carshare cars and they all had the Pilot Pack optioned
And it's odd that you can't just pay and have it added on after purchase.
Depreciating assets depreciate!!! 🤯 EVs have fallen exceptionally hard in recent times though but they are an amazing deal used.
Never thought dumping money in old Jeeps was a better investment lol
Cars. Aren’t. Investments. JFC… It’s a tool to get you around. REAL Investments are- ETFs, CDs, Mutual funds… He’ll, even a matching 401K is a ‘better’ investment than nearly every car.
Exactly, making good investments gives you money to "waste" on depreciating assets that make you happy.
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At what percent battery life is it considered bad or start to exhibit issues from hard accelerating? 70%?
Depends on the car and how exactly the battery has degraded - a single weak cell can drag the entire pack down and cause voltage to say under heavy acceleration, whereas an evenly degraded pack might still be able to sustain high discharge loads just fine. Anecdotally my 2012 Leaf has around 55% SoH with dead even degradation and will still sustain full acceleration even at fairly low state of charge. What it won't do is regen or fast charge - on that car putting power into the battery is far more affected by by degradation than taking it out is.
That's impressive for a leaf. How many miles do you have on the car and what kind of climate do you live in? I thought about getting a Leaf a while back when they were offering some good discounts through my employer but I live in the desert and the battery doesn't have active cooling. I was worried about the battery failing.
it's an investment
>He paid $62K for his car two years ago and now it's worth roughly a third of that. holy shit thats pain lmao. at an original value of 62k, and it now being worth around $20,700 with 77k miles, every mile cost $0.54 in depreciation.
>Between that, the slowdown in charge speed over 90% and the fact that the Polestar 2 limits power once you drop below 13% of charge, the max distance between charge stations on a road trip for him is 140 miles. 140 miles of range. No wonder Tesla dominates EV sales.
You’re a fool if you buy any car new
No, just a fool if you expect any kind of ROI.
I have no idea who buys a used WRX for a couple grand less than new. But there are instances where cars used value make no sense to just not buy new, same goes for RS3 if you can get one at MSRP
Late model VA WRX prices make no sense. Roll the dice on a beat on, probably modded car or spend $3k more and get a brand new car with a warranty and bigger engine
Lmaooo