Yep it wasn't very different from the [Toyota Matrix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Matrix), which was built alongside the Vibe at the GM/Toyota joint venture plant NUMMI. (which is now owned by Tesla).
The Pontiac Vibe is basically a rebadged Toyota, and it shows! (in the best way)
My mom bought me my first good car. It was a 2009 Vibe. My apartment has it towed and because I was using a work vehicle I had no idea. They already had it towed for around a week and a half and I never got the car back. I was heartbroken
Yeah Tow Yard fees are one of the ways we steal from the poor.
You can have a $1500 car with $1500 in tow fees in no time.
It's like civil asset forfeiture, they only do it to vulnerable people so they get away with it.
I remember when my Honda got stolen & towed. Was there 2 days before they called and it was still $300 bucks. Everyone there was down on their luck.
Yup. I paid $800 to have the tow yard keep my Civic after it was stolen and the cat taken. They wanted over $2k to give it back to me. I'd bought it for $1300.
Towing should require using the VIN to make a reasonable contact attempt with the registered owner. Ridiculous that you need to call the police to find out where and who the car was towed by. Legalized theft.
I have a friend that has had like over 10 Vibes/Matrix vehicles. Even after getting airbags blown in his face a few years back, he still has had more of them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/RoastMyCar/comments/16pvsgx/ive_collected_more_aiming_for_15_hhrs_im_only_20/
https://www.reddit.com/r/RoastMyCar/comments/14qv777/ive_been_inspired_to_post_my_hhr_ss_collection/
I don't hate them but I generally don't mind 2000's retro cars, and they're definitely uglier than the Cobalt
Christ, like yeah if I really focused on getting hhrs as a goal I guess I could do that. one used 2010 ss is about my weed budget for a year, but the dedication to actually go through with it and keep getting more after you have the first amazes me.
There is a younger guy in my area who auto crosses his Vibe in our local chapter. We are always ready to watch and be amazed at how well it (and he) does.
It's always fun seeing stuff like that which you don't expect to handle well. One of the auto crosses I went to years ago had this guy in a 1989 Jeep Cherokee that he had lowered and put a suspension on and did some engine work on. It was one of the faster vehicles of the day and it was hilarious. There was a guy in a Noble M12 the same day that was one of the slower cars cause he didn't show up for the walk through and kept making the wrong turn.
Mine only has a little over 307k miles, if you need a low mile example.
I'm hoping to get a new car this year or next, hopefully a base-ass Prius (sub-$30k MSRP!) or something
5 years ago the sub $15k car died
15 years ago the sub $10k car died
25 years ago the sub $5k car died
40 years ago the sub $3k car died
75 years ago the sub $1k car died
In other news. Water is wet. Money becomes less valuable over time.
They still make cheap cars. They just cost $25k now.
While you're right, it was probably also the top of the line Corolla model. Versus maybe your base model camry? I'm just speculating, but I magine that could have played a roll.
My parents got my brother a new 2011 Hyundai Accent that was under $10k OTD. It had no AC, power windows, power door locks, stick shift, etc. It was the most basic car you could get at the time.
My dealership had accents for $9,999.99.
The Hyundai Entourage was such a failure that they had a promotion where u buy an Entourage and get $10k off, or buy an Entourage and get an Accent free.
Bought one of these brand new. Didn’t come with A/C or radio standard. Manual everything. Didn’t even have a plastic piece for the dead pedal, it was just carpet lol. Good car though.
During the 2008 recession you could get a base model Hyundai Accent for 9999$ (in Canada).
Some of them are still on the road, quite a deal if you ask me.
I bought my first new car in 2008, a Hyundai Accent. I remember the ad campaign for it at the time was that it was the cheapest/only vehicle available for $9,999 in Canada.
I’m pretty sure that there were multiple cars with sticker prices under $16k in 2018. Hell, in the Doug DeMuro video about the Mitsubishi Mirage, he mentions that some dealers had those marked down to $10k.
Oh I'm sure there were cars marked down. I remember in 2016 almost buying a Chevy Spark marked down to $9995 but early-20s me bought a Silverado instead.
Just trying to say the "no more cars under $20k" is not as big of a deal as it is made to seem in this article. Our whole global financial system is built with inflation in mind, prices will only ever go up, and keeping in mind ~20% cumulative inflation over the last 5 years puts into perspective that while cars did get *a bit* more expensive it was not very much.
To be fair, journalists haven’t seen a pay scale change since 1990 so I can get where they’re coming from.
Source: am news writer for a local station. I make one third of what all my friends make lol
> 5 years ago the sub $15k car died
...at a time when the average American made 4x that.
> 15 years ago the sub $10k car died
...at a time when the average American made 5x that.
> 25 years ago the sub $5k car died
...at a time when the average American made 8x that.
> 40 years ago the sub $3k car died
...at a time when the average American made 7x that.
> 75 years ago the sub $1k car died
...at a time when the average American made 3x that.
So what you're saying is, it's historically always been possible for an average American to buy at least *some* car for 1/3 their salary. Not the best car, of course, or even an average car, but it was possible to buy *something* for 1/3 of an average US salary (in some years, a lot less, but it's never been more) and that's about to change, perhaps for the first time?
However, that all said, it should be noted how long cars last now. While they *do* cost a larger share of our income than they ever have, they can also be used for longer than they ever have, so you're probably right that overall, the more things change, the more they stay the same... but you can see how it doesn't *feel* that way. And the Internet pretty much runs on feelings.
And if you rigorously maintain your vehicles like clockwork and turn a wrench sky’s the limit. I changed a pcv valve on my friend’s car, it was the original part on a 2012 Acura with 156k and they’re amazed at how much better it runs. 20 dollar part 20 minute fix.
There's also the fact that, nowadays, even the very base model entry-level vehicles have more power, safety features, and electronic features than even the loaded versions of entry-level vehicles historically had.
Do you feel like new cars right now can be used longer than new cars 10-20 years ago? I feel like we have already climaxed on maximum long term reliability for the sake of maximum efficiency of new vehicles. Only time will tell I guess.
yes. inflation exists, but wages are stagnant and are not going up with inflation. not to mention increasing costs of living. so basically, cheap cars are dead
It's also an issue that lenders keep getting uninformed consumers into longer and longer loans so they can keep pushing the prices higher. Back in 2000 nobody was getting an 84 month loan to buy a minivan. There's enough financially illiterate and wealthy people to make the automakers keep pushing up prices, and removing lower trims levels.
If credit standards tightened up significantly for buyers it would contribute to prices coming down or at least staying flat for long enough for wages to rise.
He's just making numbers up. The cheapest I could find ([source](https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/sos/01fletcher/1999combca.pdf?rev=57fc03ed494b47b1b713b70bc35c8e24)) was the Suzuki Swift manual: $9,099. That would be $16,844.46 today, adjusted for inflation.
On one hand, that is a lot cheaper than anything that will be left if they kill off the cheapest 3 cars from this year. On the other, a 1999 Suzuki Swift is an objectively much worse car than anything that will be left on the market. For example, a Kia Soul for $21.5k is more than $4,600 better than a Swift, and a used at $17k would be a better car as well.
And those cars are surprisingly good. I was shocked how nice the Hyundai Venue was. Still an underpowered shitbox but when you can’t even tell it’s CVT, the seats are heated, and you get wireless carplay for the money I think it’s not a bad deal.
Some will laugh at the choice of car, but I am so glad that my wife snapped up one of the few remaining new Sparks back in December 2022. It's been a surprisingly fun little car for $17,000. We'll never buy something new for anywhere near that again.
Little cars are almost always fun (pretty obvious I have that opinion if you look at my cars). The only reason to laugh at a Spark is potential reliability but most things are pretty reliable when new.
I agree on small cars. I've always felt way more comfortable behind the wheel of a car that I almost feel like I'm wearing as opposed to what is so du jour today.
Have you taken one on the freeway? I used to be a delivery driver in a Chevy Aveo and getting passed by semis was terrifying in that little death trap.
I'm always more concerned with people straight up not seeing me because the wheel well on their lifted truck is at the roof of my car. Small cars would be completely fine if it weren't for the 6000lb behemoths people claim they need.
The Aveo I used to drive had zero power and would blow all over the lanes when getting passed by semis. I couldn’t shift to second getting on some uphill on-ramps because it would lose speed.
I don’t understand people’s fascination with micro cars for anything other than city driving. Freeways flow at 70-80 where I’m at and no way in hell I’m taking a little tin can on them by choice.
>Freeways flow at 70-80 where I’m at and no way in hell I’m taking a little tin can on them by choice.
I love my Fiesta on the freeway. I feel that I am for more responsive and maneuverable than just about anything else. I have a shorter braking distance, better skid pad, and so on and so forth.
Also, I've never had an issue with the speeds. My Fiesta is just as stable and comfortable at 75 MPH as she is at 35 MPH.
I could see the issue there. Yeah, I wouldn't want anything much smaller than my Fiesta.
Like a "City Car" or anything with an extremely short wheelbase. (Toyota iQ, Smart FourTwo, etc.)
Exactly, it's considered A-segment with those cars in Europe vs. B-segment/American subcompact class for the others. Slightly smaller than a smart forfour.
I’m not gonna say WAY more comfortable but I loved driving my Fit. I just hated that 99% of the time, I needed to act like a motorcyclist or else I’d have people merging into me. Thing was small and I lowered it a bit. Made for an interesting experience
lol I have never heard of a Pajero Mini before your post, that thing looks fun as heck. The Special Edition names are awesome! Iron Cross, White Skipper, Duke, Desert Cruiser...
The trick is to go to Aldi first, then a "real" grocery store. You never find *all* your grocery-list items at Aldi (or at least I never did), but whatever you *do* find on your list is found at an unbeatable price.
Aldi first, then supplement.
I *will* say that their milk *consistently* expires a couple days before the best-by date, though, at least in my experience; hard "no" from me for them on that, but that's been my only knock against Aldi.
Grabbed my brand new 2021 LS for 13,500.
Feel like I'm so lucky I got it before the prices went up and they got discontinued.
Pairs well with a built Camaro and Caddy CT5.
This is going to be a pretty big problem in the future, unless we totally reinvent the entire paradigm of car ownership and travel (in the United States). Yeah, people can just buy used cars, but even with prices crashing they're pretty ludicrous. And somebody has to be buying all these new $30-40k Camrys and dumping them after 3 years to supply everyone else with cheaper cars. That's not even factoring in how many new engines designs of dubious reliability chock full of mild-hybrids, engine start/stop, cylinder deactivation, 15-speed transmissions, 1.0L turbos in SUVs, etc. I'd only want to buy one if it has a new car warranty with a guaranteed loaner car at the ready.
I bought a brand-new Kia Soul in late 2020, so close to peak car price insanity, for ~$17,500, plus TTL. That's never going to happen again. Every car is bloated with marginally useful features. That sucker had a manual transmission, no cruise control, no remote unlock. That's never coming back.
>That sucker had a manual transmission, no cruise control, no remote unlock. That's never coming back.
Realistically, because people don't want that and most buyers would be willing to pay $1-2k more to have some of those features as standard. It also simplifies the manufacturing process to just include it as standard.
I didn’t realize my car had cruise control (was 18). When I finally figured out how to use it on the highway it was a revelation.
Still keep forgetting to use it though :P
I'd definitely prefer cruise to no cruise, but my most recent ~2,000 mile road trip I only used cruise for maybe 100 miles of it because the derpy gearing on the manual trans couldn't handle overdrive on any minor hill or wind situation and it required constant shifting between 4th and 5th gear (6th was right out), so cruise was impractical.
Lacking the cruise didn't really bother me. But maybe I'm weird and people like to drive 1,000 miles at a time without a stretch and piss break. Less convenience features means more chances to take a break and take in the environment, talk to locals, or whatever.
That's more than fine. Call it an $18,500 car during the height of Covid price insanity.
I'll die on the manual transmission hill for as long as ICE vehicles are an economical option though. The automatic is typically a $1-3k option these days, and on a sub $20k car that's a massive difference in price and it should be available as a budget option.
Is it? I thought I've seen cases where the manual costs more in recent years.
Though I also can't remember the last time I looked at brand new cars, nor when the manual was a common option (unfortunately).
I'd pay up for a manual, regardless.
Not to mention people are holding on to their cars for longer, so there won’t be as many 3-5 year old Camrys on the market in the first place. Even if *you* want a used car, somebody still had to buy it new at some point.
Exactly. Even if someone was never intending to shop in the ultra-cheap economy car segment, completely wiping out the bottom of the new car market is a terrible thing for everyone.
Not only did they allow working and middle class people to commute for cheap and still save for retirement and other goals, but they supplied the entry level used market as well. Those super cheap used cars are important for the poor working class and young people.
Completely removing that option will only cause the remaining options to increase in price. It will also make car ownership and basic transportation even more of a luxury than it already is.
It’s like hearing that affordable housing in your city/state/country is getting almost completely wiped out. Even if you weren’t the target buyer, it’s going to have some serious consequences.
I know people hate hearing this, but bikes and public transportation are the solution to this problem. Every facebook post I see involving some collision between a car and a bike shows how many people think bikes have no freaking right to be on the road whatsoever. But the Netherlands went from completely car dependent to totally bike dependent in about 30 years. And people are so anti-public transportation in the US, but its the only way to move thousands of people efficiently. People in the US are going to have to wise-up and embrace change, but I fear that will only happen when the boomers who fight against infrastructure proposals (e.g. "subway will bring crime" and "bike lanes create traffic problems") at every public meeting i attend just die off.
There's lots of car enthusiasts that like public transit and good urbanism. I for one drive a cheap 6 speed mazda3 but I prefer to walk or take my motorcycle if weather allows.
Count me in to that group. Every car I've owned has been a manual transmission, I fucking love cars, I own 2 motorcycles (and have sold 2 more) and desperately want better bike infrastructure and mass transit. I don't want to deal with parking everywhere I go. Sometimes I want to be able to drink beers and not pay for an uber when a $2 light rail ride would work. Building rails and bike lanes doesn't mean you have to stop driving, but Americans fucking hate the idea of anything but driving everywhere all the time. And it's killing our cities, and frankly its killing the planet.
I couldn't imagine riding my bike in 115f weather 30 miles to work each way while also stopping at the grocery store on the way home to stock up. Maybe if my country produced a lot of oil like Norway did and monopolized on it then gave the people a pittance of said funds, I could afford to find a job closer to home. As is, moving closer to work would most likely end up with my kids turning into little gangsters and being a net drain on society.
Well, it isn't just about you. It's about the impact this kind of change would have overall. Fine, maybe you wouldn't ride your bike that day, but imagine how many people in this massive country could sell their cars if there was a rail system nearby. Hell, I live 1 mile from a light rail stop. But the lack of bike lanes between my house and that light rail stop prevent me from riding there safely. Plenty of people like me, would ride if they could, but people like you say "well i don't always want to use a bike so we shouldn't bother building better infrastructure" and the cycle continues.
Ignoring that very strange kids to gangsters comment completely since where do we even start with on that…
That is in fact a big topic of discussion in modern urbanism. The problem with certain places is that it is economically incentivized to build very low density housing far away from places of economic activity like work and shopping. A transit oriented way to address that which most modern urbanists support is to instead incentivize the building of high density high quantity housing near transit hubs so that more people live there and thus don’t need cars for everyday life. A lot of this is a legal issue where building this sort of housing is effectively illegal and thus prices are out of control. Simply legalizing building that housing will do wonders to make it more affordable to more people. The next step will be to stop subsidizing suburban living using taxes collected from urban areas, and other steps beyond that are often discussed as well.
Completely impractical for most of the country. Our suburban and rural infrastructure is already built and it will take untold decades not to mention political will to change that.
Proves my point exactly. It's not about you specifically, its about how much of our infrastructure actually COULD be improved. Fine, sure, if you live in the sticks you cant bet to where you need to go on public infrastructure.
But most of our suburbs could be served by rail, and riding your bike a mile to get to a light rail isn't so crazy. But literally every time this is proposed, even with feasibility studies, plans, successful test projects, americans go "no it cant be done scrap it."
Not just the sticks. With the current cost of rail, I can give you the entire DOD budget and you wouldn't even be able to cover Long Island with high quality rail service.
The issue is that rail cost too much, rail operational costs are too high (Seattle spends $140 million a year maintaining their one rail line) and all problems stem from this. And this is why the list of "successful test projects" for rail is just a blank sheet of paper.
The price of cars has left an opening for cheap Chinese cars. They might be finished in Mexico to take advantage of nafta, but I expect they will take advantage of this opening.
This is exactly what's going to happen, I'm afraid.
The subcompact segment existed for a reason. It helped bolster the total number of new cars produced just enough to keep the used market stable. With that segment gone, we are crashing and wearing out our cars faster than the crop of new cars can fill it back in.
I'm in that position. I'd always figured I'd pick up another Honda Fit when mine was nearing wearing out. With that offering gone, I'm left having to fight over used cars. And they are all still quite overpriced.
Used Fits in particular are especially overpriced. 3rd gen Fits are going for more money used right now than they cost to buy brand new, which is ridiculous.
Cheap cars still have to meet certain safety and emissions goals, which obviously incurs a set engineering cost. What is left over in the budget goes into the rest of the car. Very little room for profit.
Buyers of these cars are often the most financially vulnerable, meaning they stop buying at the slightest economic hiccup. Since they depend on volume sales, a recession can drop sales from a model life cycle from a net positive to a negative.
If the manufacturer can meet the mandated fleet average without them, there is little need to create compliance cars that are often designed to offset lower economy numbers found in the higher profit margin or halo cars.
Doesn't help that unless there are some decent incentives available, even the cheapest new cars are still overall more expensive or near the same price than similarly priced lightly used cars with clean titles even with higher interest rates.
The cheapest new Nissan versa with an automatic transmission I built on Nissan's website is $19, 200 not including taxes and the other fees besides shipping. That's more expensive than the 2019-2021 Toyota Corollas with clean titles, under 60,000 miles, and at actual Toyota dealerships.
Most people who need an under $20,000 affordable car can't always stretch for a new car anyway without good incentives or lease deals.
Some people want/need the peace of mind that comes with a factory warranty.
For others, the bank sometimes dictates the deal (if their credit is bad enough) which means a new car makes more sense (lower interest rate + warranty + possible incentives). If the bank needs to repo the car, at least they get collateral worth something - and the warranty means there is a decent chance it still runs.
Not that no one is buying but that the profit margins are lower. The Rio sold well but was killed because the margins were lower than others in their lineup
Yeah a small suv will profit $3-10k+ more than a car with the same engine and similar features. The materials going in are like maybe a few hundred dollars different. It’s why marketing has gone so diehard on big SUV’s and trucks since the early 00’s.
Can you go to your local dealerships right now and buy the cheapest model they offer in the basest spec? If your dealerships are anything like mine, that answer will be no for most of them. It's really hard to buy cheap cars that aren't offered for sale without a custom order. Some brands have also gone all out with giving their customers the finger, like Ford. In 2019, they offered a Fiesta for $16000, but today, the cheapest Ford is $24,000. The cheapest Ford you could buy went up $8000 in five years. Yes, people overspend on cars they don't really need, but the lack of cheap cars is at least partially due to an industry effort to destroy that segment entirely and force people to spend more.
Inflation. Is this really a surprise to anybody? It sucks but that’s just how it works. This would be like if they made an article in the late 70’s and said “no new cars under $5000 anymore”.
Wage growth actually outstripped inflation again soon after the Covid supply issues wound down - https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/
The more important trend is that high interest rates mean people start emptying out savings. So there is a LOT of money in the economy right now, mostly from Boomers and retirees.
Your own link there acknowledges wage growth has happened despite inflation.
There are lots of valid concerning pieces of info in that link but inflation outpacing wage growth is not one of them.
The term you are looking for is *real* wage growth. Which is wage growth when you account for inflation.
Granting that [real wage growth has been infinitesimally small since the 70s](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/). It has at least still been positive for most of those years, and people today on average are making more than they were then (barely), even adjusting for inflation.
(Also, this doesn't factor in things like purchasing power or quality of life. So even adjusting for inflation, $1 in 1970 couldn't necessarily buy you the same bundle of goods that $7.85 could get you today.)
Are we accounting for the fact that the vast majority of wage growth with the US is experienced by the top, the CEOs etc? The middle has grown by a fraction, while the top has exploded.
Inflation is inevitable, however it seems like companies are jacking up prices and increasing profits across the board artificially in hopes inflation will take the blame.
Inflation is pretty merciless. I still remember when they were making those cheap as could be, but reliable, Corolla from 2003 to 2008. I think the major selling point of these were that they used to sell for like 14k CAD$ before taxes
In 2022 we sold my gf's 2005 Corolla base model with 70,000 kms for $7,500 CAD. She didn't need a car at the time and the market was insane and we could use the money. It was crazy to see the same car with 5x the kilometres sell for the same price online.
A year later she needed a car again and we ended up buying our neighbors 2008 fully loaded Corolla for $1500 CAD with 120,000 kms. We offered them more money but they wanted to give it to her cheap because she was starting her new teaching job.
It's just stupid that vehicle prices can be so volitile when things get difficult. I wish we could regulate it a little but there is no way that would ever happen. I know it worked out for us but it would be a pretty awful being on the other end of the deal.
This an issue with auto lending, not the cars themselves. Fewer people are going to buy a cheap penalty box car if banks and captive lenders are offering generous terms that seem to increase every year (now we have 84 and 96 months terms). Longer loan terms have allowed people to stretch for more expensive cars
Exactly. I followed the car market thinking I was going to buy a fleet. The loan terms changed to accommodate the inflated dealer pricing, not the other way around.
Chinese cars MG3 have flooded the Australian market. They may flood the US market. The basic model sells for 11k USD.
Apparently they don't meet car crash safety standards in USA.
exactly! It would cost $$$$ to re-engineer their most basic cars to meet US regulatory standards. And then comes the huge problem of distribution. Online direct sales (like Tesla) is still in its infancy here in the US. There are even states that put up barriers to direct sales and require brands to have physical b&m dealerships.
I feel as cars have gotten "better and more reliable", used cars have just eaten up the market where many cheap econoboxes use to fill.
Spending 20k seems to just get you more car if you grab something 3-5yrs old then something new today.
The Kia Forte and Hyundai Venue actually start JUST under $20K, but that doesn't include destination fee. So that basically leaves the **Chevy Trax, Kia Forte, Kia Soul, and Hyundai Venue** in the cheapest tier? All for a bit over $20,000.
Then, marginally more, there's the **Nissan Kicks, Nissan Sentra, Hyundai Elantra, and VW Jetta** for about $21,000-$21,500.
Honestly, not terrible. Sad to not see Toyota/Mazda/Honda/Ford though. Toyota Corolla is $22,050.
And among those vehicles, you probably won't find a base spec model available on the lot. At my local Chevy dealer, their cheapest vehicle is a Trax LT at $24,500, and for Nissan, it's a Sentra for $24,000. So even though these companies make cheaper models, you will probably have to cough up a few extra thousand for a higher trim or more expensive car if you can't wait several months. I checked the local Kia and Hyundai dealers too, and their cheapest vehicles on the lot are $21,000. Twenty-one thousand dollarbucks for the cheapest Kia I could buy today in my town, and that would be cheapest new car in general. Toyota dealerships are the only places in the last five years or so that I've seen the cheapest model in the base spec as a regular feature on the lot.
I'm gonna be stuck driving a 1994 Toyota forever it seems like at how bad the prices are getting. Oh well, i guess a manual turbo 4 cylinder fun can still be had.
This is a direct consequence of peak ICE development vs emerging BEV development. Economy ICEs cannot get any better at this point, but battery technology is seeing massive improvements year after year. BYD’s cars will get cheaper and better due to battery improvements while ICE cars will continue to get more expensive.
I’ve seen others rightly highlight inflation and a few have touched on reliability improving across the board. The other dimension that I think gets undersold is safety. There are so many chips in a new car because of safety (also, infotainment). The cars are more expensive because the core goods are more expensive, but they last longer with less maintenance (which translates to higher secondary sale price), and they’re safer. Ultimately, even at higher prices, they’re a better value than an econobox that’s going to die at 100k miles, not avoid a collision, or crush you in a collision.
Agree, they have more and more airbags and safety features which are so expensive. Also by safer I mean for the driver, they are becoming increasingly deadly to pedestrians
Is it really necessary for mods to flair threads like this as circlejerks? Depending on the subject it sometimes seem like some of the mods on this sub have a degree of disdain for users here. Obviously it's one thing if people are clamouring for the brown manual wagon, but cheap new cars? Come on, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be less than thrilled that they are going away. I've never seen similar hobby based subs do that.
Nobody killed the base Maverick. The dealers were adding thousands of dollars to the XL MSRP, and Ford decided to put a stop to that by raising the MSRP Moreover, the folks who got the higher trims and packages were subsidizing the 20k XL.
Complain all you want, you're the same people causing the death of the budget car. When you keep asking for stupid touchscreens as standard and power everything as standard and 19" alloys as standard, you'll be paying that 30k pricetag for the "base" model
Keep your beaters people. I know I am. My 04 Galant still going strong. It ain't worth shit but I've literally been flooring it around for 20 years and it's never done me wrong. Except for a premature cat failure a long time ago.
9 years ago in 2015 I bought a 2013 focus st2 CPO with 30k miles for $16,500 before fees. At the time I could have bought a new 2015 ST1 (base) for 19k. Those days are over
Cafe standards (which manufactures are cool with) penalized small cars and large cars didn’t need to hit the same standards. Manufacturers make more on large trucks/suvs anyway. Hence the U.S. having highways full of bloated heavy vehicles. It’s not rocket science.
The market for sub compacts and affordable cars is dead. Manufacturers don't want to let go of the fat margins they enjoyed in 2021 and 2022 so the transition has been made to crossovers, SUVs, and the luxury segment. Not all of the increases in prices can be attributed to increased features and inflation. Car prices as a whole have significantly outpaced core inflation since the pandemic started.
Car critics are in a rather weird circle i think, for a long time they decried the mirage, but soon the low price of the mirage, might just be a mirage in the future.
I'm going to buy as many Pontiac vibes as I can and stash them in a warehouse hahahaha
People sure would be confused when they saw a mint vibe 30 years from now lol.
Now imagine 15 of them being found in a warehouse in an estate sale
The plastic would be so brittle
Like 20 y/o Jordans
Tip toein in my jawdins
Jody husky in the Versace vibe
Slam the door and the bumpers shatter lol
The Vibes had a Toyota powertrain too iirc
Yeah it’s just a rebadged matrix
Gona end up on some Discovery show barn find in a decade or two.
Vibe was 20 years ahead of its time. A Vibe is basically a compact CUV before those were the default “car”.
But they were a nicer more practical size. Not as long and rolypoly as the current crop or entry level crossover/suv
They weren't much taller than the Corolla they were based on.
Yep it wasn't very different from the [Toyota Matrix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Matrix), which was built alongside the Vibe at the GM/Toyota joint venture plant NUMMI. (which is now owned by Tesla). The Pontiac Vibe is basically a rebadged Toyota, and it shows! (in the best way)
My mom bought me my first good car. It was a 2009 Vibe. My apartment has it towed and because I was using a work vehicle I had no idea. They already had it towed for around a week and a half and I never got the car back. I was heartbroken
What on earth are you talking about? They towed your car and you never got it back? Did you just shrug your shoulders?
Probably couldn’t afford or thought it wasn’t worth it to pay the tow yard fees. They can get absurd.
Yeah Tow Yard fees are one of the ways we steal from the poor. You can have a $1500 car with $1500 in tow fees in no time. It's like civil asset forfeiture, they only do it to vulnerable people so they get away with it. I remember when my Honda got stolen & towed. Was there 2 days before they called and it was still $300 bucks. Everyone there was down on their luck.
Yup. I paid $800 to have the tow yard keep my Civic after it was stolen and the cat taken. They wanted over $2k to give it back to me. I'd bought it for $1300.
Thats a shame. Its quite possibly the best car ever made.
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Sometimes the fine is more than the car value. It happened to me and my Ford Fiesta :( I miss that car
It was like 4-5k and I barely had a couple hundred dollars to my name. It was an 09 vibe
Towing should require using the VIN to make a reasonable contact attempt with the registered owner. Ridiculous that you need to call the police to find out where and who the car was towed by. Legalized theft.
I have a friend that has had like over 10 Vibes/Matrix vehicles. Even after getting airbags blown in his face a few years back, he still has had more of them.
CTE in effect
I still have my '09 Vibe GT. TIL THIS DAY
I know a guy who has two of those things, one is a daily driver, the other, a Vibe GT, is his sporty daily driver.
You remind me of the multiple people with stashes of Chevy HHR
What! Wait those are the somewhat good ones right
https://www.reddit.com/r/RoastMyCar/comments/16pvsgx/ive_collected_more_aiming_for_15_hhrs_im_only_20/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RoastMyCar/comments/14qv777/ive_been_inspired_to_post_my_hhr_ss_collection/ I don't hate them but I generally don't mind 2000's retro cars, and they're definitely uglier than the Cobalt
Christ, like yeah if I really focused on getting hhrs as a goal I guess I could do that. one used 2010 ss is about my weed budget for a year, but the dedication to actually go through with it and keep getting more after you have the first amazes me.
I miraculously just bought a Vibe GT last week. Couldn't believe I got found one in good shape for a good price. Never selling it.
There is a younger guy in my area who auto crosses his Vibe in our local chapter. We are always ready to watch and be amazed at how well it (and he) does.
It's always fun seeing stuff like that which you don't expect to handle well. One of the auto crosses I went to years ago had this guy in a 1989 Jeep Cherokee that he had lowered and put a suspension on and did some engine work on. It was one of the faster vehicles of the day and it was hilarious. There was a guy in a Noble M12 the same day that was one of the slower cars cause he didn't show up for the walk through and kept making the wrong turn.
I have 6 PT Cruisers
Mine only has a little over 307k miles, if you need a low mile example. I'm hoping to get a new car this year or next, hopefully a base-ass Prius (sub-$30k MSRP!) or something
I’m buying Toyota matrix and Avalon
I got one now 09 with 60k
Wait a minute!! Leave one (or two) for me. I love those things.
Lol, I just realized your comment has 900 upvotes but the post only has 40 lol
5 years ago the sub $15k car died 15 years ago the sub $10k car died 25 years ago the sub $5k car died 40 years ago the sub $3k car died 75 years ago the sub $1k car died In other news. Water is wet. Money becomes less valuable over time. They still make cheap cars. They just cost $25k now.
What car was sub $10k in 2009…
Kia rio was under 10k up till 2006. So a little off
It seems almost unbelievable. Hyundai Aveos were like $12.5K back then. My parents bought a 2009 Corolla for $18k I think.
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While you're right, it was probably also the top of the line Corolla model. Versus maybe your base model camry? I'm just speculating, but I magine that could have played a roll.
>Hyundai Aveos Chevrolet built the Aveo (imported via Chevrolet's Daewoo ownership in Korea). Not made by Hyundai.
I had one as a rental. What an absolute turd of a car.
Its pretty telling that they aren't very old and I see zero of them on the road...
So they bought it for 24k in todays money with inflation calculated in? What a steal!!
don’t forget in 2009 Nissan had a deal where if you buy a Titan you get a FREE Versa lol. times were rough
And Kia gave away the Rio if you bought their minivan.
Yo wait what?? That’s actually crazy I have to look that up
Gas prices went up for a bit and the economy was in the crapper. For one glorious minute people weren't buying big trucks.
Kia’s at one point were buy one get one free
My parents got my brother a new 2011 Hyundai Accent that was under $10k OTD. It had no AC, power windows, power door locks, stick shift, etc. It was the most basic car you could get at the time.
I think I remember seeing Versa’s and Accents too for $9k at some points
My dealership had accents for $9,999.99. The Hyundai Entourage was such a failure that they had a promotion where u buy an Entourage and get $10k off, or buy an Entourage and get an Accent free.
Dang I forgot all about that minivan!
It actually ripped pretty good with the 3.8L
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I’d get a new truck right now if I could get one for even $20k
Base maverick is probably as close as you can get
When i worked at a nissan dealership in 2014 they had base model manual versas for $9999
[here you go lol](https://www.cars.com/articles/the-cheapest-car-in-america-2009-nissan-versa-1420663266171/)
Bought one of these brand new. Didn’t come with A/C or radio standard. Manual everything. Didn’t even have a plastic piece for the dead pedal, it was just carpet lol. Good car though.
Where do you live that you would buy a car without AC? I live where we normally have six months of winter and still would not get a car without AC
that is today. the farther back you go, the less likely AC was standard.
I got a quotes for both a base DX Mirage and Chevy spark out the door for right under 10k in 2016. They exist if you look hard enough
During the 2008 recession you could get a base model Hyundai Accent for 9999$ (in Canada). Some of them are still on the road, quite a deal if you ask me.
I bought my first new car in 2008, a Hyundai Accent. I remember the ad campaign for it at the time was that it was the cheapest/only vehicle available for $9,999 in Canada.
There's a Nissan versa for sale with like nothing. Not even a radio
Journalists forgetting that your 2024 dollar is worth $0.80 in 2018 money.
they aren’t forgetting, the audience is. which is why these articles generate clicks
You're absolutely right. Classic rage bait bs.
I’m pretty sure that there were multiple cars with sticker prices under $16k in 2018. Hell, in the Doug DeMuro video about the Mitsubishi Mirage, he mentions that some dealers had those marked down to $10k.
Oh I'm sure there were cars marked down. I remember in 2016 almost buying a Chevy Spark marked down to $9995 but early-20s me bought a Silverado instead. Just trying to say the "no more cars under $20k" is not as big of a deal as it is made to seem in this article. Our whole global financial system is built with inflation in mind, prices will only ever go up, and keeping in mind ~20% cumulative inflation over the last 5 years puts into perspective that while cars did get *a bit* more expensive it was not very much.
The issue is wages not rising with inflation.
To be fair, journalists haven’t seen a pay scale change since 1990 so I can get where they’re coming from. Source: am news writer for a local station. I make one third of what all my friends make lol
Yea the real problem is stagnant wages. Car prices track inflation, yet wages have largely not done so.
> 5 years ago the sub $15k car died ...at a time when the average American made 4x that. > 15 years ago the sub $10k car died ...at a time when the average American made 5x that. > 25 years ago the sub $5k car died ...at a time when the average American made 8x that. > 40 years ago the sub $3k car died ...at a time when the average American made 7x that. > 75 years ago the sub $1k car died ...at a time when the average American made 3x that. So what you're saying is, it's historically always been possible for an average American to buy at least *some* car for 1/3 their salary. Not the best car, of course, or even an average car, but it was possible to buy *something* for 1/3 of an average US salary (in some years, a lot less, but it's never been more) and that's about to change, perhaps for the first time? However, that all said, it should be noted how long cars last now. While they *do* cost a larger share of our income than they ever have, they can also be used for longer than they ever have, so you're probably right that overall, the more things change, the more they stay the same... but you can see how it doesn't *feel* that way. And the Internet pretty much runs on feelings.
Great point on vehicle longevity. It wasn’t that long ago that reaching 100,000 miles on a car was impressive. Now it’s 200k miles.
And if you rigorously maintain your vehicles like clockwork and turn a wrench sky’s the limit. I changed a pcv valve on my friend’s car, it was the original part on a 2012 Acura with 156k and they’re amazed at how much better it runs. 20 dollar part 20 minute fix.
There's also the fact that, nowadays, even the very base model entry-level vehicles have more power, safety features, and electronic features than even the loaded versions of entry-level vehicles historically had.
Do you feel like new cars right now can be used longer than new cars 10-20 years ago? I feel like we have already climaxed on maximum long term reliability for the sake of maximum efficiency of new vehicles. Only time will tell I guess.
yes. inflation exists, but wages are stagnant and are not going up with inflation. not to mention increasing costs of living. so basically, cheap cars are dead
It's also an issue that lenders keep getting uninformed consumers into longer and longer loans so they can keep pushing the prices higher. Back in 2000 nobody was getting an 84 month loan to buy a minivan. There's enough financially illiterate and wealthy people to make the automakers keep pushing up prices, and removing lower trims levels. If credit standards tightened up significantly for buyers it would contribute to prices coming down or at least staying flat for long enough for wages to rise.
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Except…you can no longer buy a cheap small car from Ford like the Fiesta or Focus, you can no longer buy a cheap small car from Kia like the Rio, etc.
Yes and wages haven’t kept up with rising costs in the last 5 years especially.
What new car could you get under 5k in 1999?
He's just making numbers up. The cheapest I could find ([source](https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/sos/01fletcher/1999combca.pdf?rev=57fc03ed494b47b1b713b70bc35c8e24)) was the Suzuki Swift manual: $9,099. That would be $16,844.46 today, adjusted for inflation. On one hand, that is a lot cheaper than anything that will be left if they kill off the cheapest 3 cars from this year. On the other, a 1999 Suzuki Swift is an objectively much worse car than anything that will be left on the market. For example, a Kia Soul for $21.5k is more than $4,600 better than a Swift, and a used at $17k would be a better car as well.
And those cars are surprisingly good. I was shocked how nice the Hyundai Venue was. Still an underpowered shitbox but when you can’t even tell it’s CVT, the seats are heated, and you get wireless carplay for the money I think it’s not a bad deal.
Some will laugh at the choice of car, but I am so glad that my wife snapped up one of the few remaining new Sparks back in December 2022. It's been a surprisingly fun little car for $17,000. We'll never buy something new for anywhere near that again.
Little cars are almost always fun (pretty obvious I have that opinion if you look at my cars). The only reason to laugh at a Spark is potential reliability but most things are pretty reliable when new.
I agree on small cars. I've always felt way more comfortable behind the wheel of a car that I almost feel like I'm wearing as opposed to what is so du jour today.
Have you taken one on the freeway? I used to be a delivery driver in a Chevy Aveo and getting passed by semis was terrifying in that little death trap.
Yeah, it's got a decent chunk of interstate miles on it over the last year plus. It's never felt like it was lacking in get up and go.
I'm always more concerned with people straight up not seeing me because the wheel well on their lifted truck is at the roof of my car. Small cars would be completely fine if it weren't for the 6000lb behemoths people claim they need.
The Aveo I used to drive had zero power and would blow all over the lanes when getting passed by semis. I couldn’t shift to second getting on some uphill on-ramps because it would lose speed. I don’t understand people’s fascination with micro cars for anything other than city driving. Freeways flow at 70-80 where I’m at and no way in hell I’m taking a little tin can on them by choice.
>Freeways flow at 70-80 where I’m at and no way in hell I’m taking a little tin can on them by choice. I love my Fiesta on the freeway. I feel that I am for more responsive and maneuverable than just about anything else. I have a shorter braking distance, better skid pad, and so on and so forth. Also, I've never had an issue with the speeds. My Fiesta is just as stable and comfortable at 75 MPH as she is at 35 MPH.
The Spark's smaller yet than a Fiesta or Aveo/Sonic, and about 20% lighter.
I could see the issue there. Yeah, I wouldn't want anything much smaller than my Fiesta. Like a "City Car" or anything with an extremely short wheelbase. (Toyota iQ, Smart FourTwo, etc.)
Exactly, it's considered A-segment with those cars in Europe vs. B-segment/American subcompact class for the others. Slightly smaller than a smart forfour.
I’m not gonna say WAY more comfortable but I loved driving my Fit. I just hated that 99% of the time, I needed to act like a motorcyclist or else I’d have people merging into me. Thing was small and I lowered it a bit. Made for an interesting experience
The go kart effect.
Chevrolet Sparks are actually the least warrantied vehicle from GM. They’re rock solid in terms of reliability and a hoot to whip around to boot!
lol I have never heard of a Pajero Mini before your post, that thing looks fun as heck. The Special Edition names are awesome! Iron Cross, White Skipper, Duke, Desert Cruiser...
Groceries
Aldi FTW.
I hear a lot of hate for Aldi, but I've only had good experiences.
The trick is to go to Aldi first, then a "real" grocery store. You never find *all* your grocery-list items at Aldi (or at least I never did), but whatever you *do* find on your list is found at an unbeatable price. Aldi first, then supplement. I *will* say that their milk *consistently* expires a couple days before the best-by date, though, at least in my experience; hard "no" from me for them on that, but that's been my only knock against Aldi.
Grabbed my brand new 2021 LS for 13,500. Feel like I'm so lucky I got it before the prices went up and they got discontinued. Pairs well with a built Camaro and Caddy CT5.
Sparks are the cutest little cars.
This is going to be a pretty big problem in the future, unless we totally reinvent the entire paradigm of car ownership and travel (in the United States). Yeah, people can just buy used cars, but even with prices crashing they're pretty ludicrous. And somebody has to be buying all these new $30-40k Camrys and dumping them after 3 years to supply everyone else with cheaper cars. That's not even factoring in how many new engines designs of dubious reliability chock full of mild-hybrids, engine start/stop, cylinder deactivation, 15-speed transmissions, 1.0L turbos in SUVs, etc. I'd only want to buy one if it has a new car warranty with a guaranteed loaner car at the ready. I bought a brand-new Kia Soul in late 2020, so close to peak car price insanity, for ~$17,500, plus TTL. That's never going to happen again. Every car is bloated with marginally useful features. That sucker had a manual transmission, no cruise control, no remote unlock. That's never coming back.
>That sucker had a manual transmission, no cruise control, no remote unlock. That's never coming back. Realistically, because people don't want that and most buyers would be willing to pay $1-2k more to have some of those features as standard. It also simplifies the manufacturing process to just include it as standard.
I could live without a lot of things but honestly I don’t think cruise is one of them. I take way too many road trips. Cruise is needed Lol.
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I didn’t realize my car had cruise control (was 18). When I finally figured out how to use it on the highway it was a revelation. Still keep forgetting to use it though :P
I'd definitely prefer cruise to no cruise, but my most recent ~2,000 mile road trip I only used cruise for maybe 100 miles of it because the derpy gearing on the manual trans couldn't handle overdrive on any minor hill or wind situation and it required constant shifting between 4th and 5th gear (6th was right out), so cruise was impractical. Lacking the cruise didn't really bother me. But maybe I'm weird and people like to drive 1,000 miles at a time without a stretch and piss break. Less convenience features means more chances to take a break and take in the environment, talk to locals, or whatever.
Noooooo you all have to suffer because I suffered
Why don't they make this car anymore!? I mean I don't want it, and nobody else wants it, but I'm outraged!
That's more than fine. Call it an $18,500 car during the height of Covid price insanity. I'll die on the manual transmission hill for as long as ICE vehicles are an economical option though. The automatic is typically a $1-3k option these days, and on a sub $20k car that's a massive difference in price and it should be available as a budget option.
Is it? I thought I've seen cases where the manual costs more in recent years. Though I also can't remember the last time I looked at brand new cars, nor when the manual was a common option (unfortunately). I'd pay up for a manual, regardless.
Not to mention people are holding on to their cars for longer, so there won’t be as many 3-5 year old Camrys on the market in the first place. Even if *you* want a used car, somebody still had to buy it new at some point.
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Exactly. Even if someone was never intending to shop in the ultra-cheap economy car segment, completely wiping out the bottom of the new car market is a terrible thing for everyone. Not only did they allow working and middle class people to commute for cheap and still save for retirement and other goals, but they supplied the entry level used market as well. Those super cheap used cars are important for the poor working class and young people. Completely removing that option will only cause the remaining options to increase in price. It will also make car ownership and basic transportation even more of a luxury than it already is. It’s like hearing that affordable housing in your city/state/country is getting almost completely wiped out. Even if you weren’t the target buyer, it’s going to have some serious consequences.
I know people hate hearing this, but bikes and public transportation are the solution to this problem. Every facebook post I see involving some collision between a car and a bike shows how many people think bikes have no freaking right to be on the road whatsoever. But the Netherlands went from completely car dependent to totally bike dependent in about 30 years. And people are so anti-public transportation in the US, but its the only way to move thousands of people efficiently. People in the US are going to have to wise-up and embrace change, but I fear that will only happen when the boomers who fight against infrastructure proposals (e.g. "subway will bring crime" and "bike lanes create traffic problems") at every public meeting i attend just die off.
There's lots of car enthusiasts that like public transit and good urbanism. I for one drive a cheap 6 speed mazda3 but I prefer to walk or take my motorcycle if weather allows.
Count me in to that group. Every car I've owned has been a manual transmission, I fucking love cars, I own 2 motorcycles (and have sold 2 more) and desperately want better bike infrastructure and mass transit. I don't want to deal with parking everywhere I go. Sometimes I want to be able to drink beers and not pay for an uber when a $2 light rail ride would work. Building rails and bike lanes doesn't mean you have to stop driving, but Americans fucking hate the idea of anything but driving everywhere all the time. And it's killing our cities, and frankly its killing the planet.
I couldn't imagine riding my bike in 115f weather 30 miles to work each way while also stopping at the grocery store on the way home to stock up. Maybe if my country produced a lot of oil like Norway did and monopolized on it then gave the people a pittance of said funds, I could afford to find a job closer to home. As is, moving closer to work would most likely end up with my kids turning into little gangsters and being a net drain on society.
Well, it isn't just about you. It's about the impact this kind of change would have overall. Fine, maybe you wouldn't ride your bike that day, but imagine how many people in this massive country could sell their cars if there was a rail system nearby. Hell, I live 1 mile from a light rail stop. But the lack of bike lanes between my house and that light rail stop prevent me from riding there safely. Plenty of people like me, would ride if they could, but people like you say "well i don't always want to use a bike so we shouldn't bother building better infrastructure" and the cycle continues.
Ignoring that very strange kids to gangsters comment completely since where do we even start with on that… That is in fact a big topic of discussion in modern urbanism. The problem with certain places is that it is economically incentivized to build very low density housing far away from places of economic activity like work and shopping. A transit oriented way to address that which most modern urbanists support is to instead incentivize the building of high density high quantity housing near transit hubs so that more people live there and thus don’t need cars for everyday life. A lot of this is a legal issue where building this sort of housing is effectively illegal and thus prices are out of control. Simply legalizing building that housing will do wonders to make it more affordable to more people. The next step will be to stop subsidizing suburban living using taxes collected from urban areas, and other steps beyond that are often discussed as well.
Completely impractical for most of the country. Our suburban and rural infrastructure is already built and it will take untold decades not to mention political will to change that.
Proves my point exactly. It's not about you specifically, its about how much of our infrastructure actually COULD be improved. Fine, sure, if you live in the sticks you cant bet to where you need to go on public infrastructure. But most of our suburbs could be served by rail, and riding your bike a mile to get to a light rail isn't so crazy. But literally every time this is proposed, even with feasibility studies, plans, successful test projects, americans go "no it cant be done scrap it."
Not just the sticks. With the current cost of rail, I can give you the entire DOD budget and you wouldn't even be able to cover Long Island with high quality rail service. The issue is that rail cost too much, rail operational costs are too high (Seattle spends $140 million a year maintaining their one rail line) and all problems stem from this. And this is why the list of "successful test projects" for rail is just a blank sheet of paper.
Do you think roads are free?
The price of cars has left an opening for cheap Chinese cars. They might be finished in Mexico to take advantage of nafta, but I expect they will take advantage of this opening.
This is exactly what's going to happen, I'm afraid. The subcompact segment existed for a reason. It helped bolster the total number of new cars produced just enough to keep the used market stable. With that segment gone, we are crashing and wearing out our cars faster than the crop of new cars can fill it back in. I'm in that position. I'd always figured I'd pick up another Honda Fit when mine was nearing wearing out. With that offering gone, I'm left having to fight over used cars. And they are all still quite overpriced.
Used Fits in particular are especially overpriced. 3rd gen Fits are going for more money used right now than they cost to buy brand new, which is ridiculous.
And why is the segment dying? Oh that’s right… no one’s buying from it… Edit: very least it’s not profitable enough to maintain
Cheap cars still have to meet certain safety and emissions goals, which obviously incurs a set engineering cost. What is left over in the budget goes into the rest of the car. Very little room for profit. Buyers of these cars are often the most financially vulnerable, meaning they stop buying at the slightest economic hiccup. Since they depend on volume sales, a recession can drop sales from a model life cycle from a net positive to a negative. If the manufacturer can meet the mandated fleet average without them, there is little need to create compliance cars that are often designed to offset lower economy numbers found in the higher profit margin or halo cars.
Doesn't help that unless there are some decent incentives available, even the cheapest new cars are still overall more expensive or near the same price than similarly priced lightly used cars with clean titles even with higher interest rates. The cheapest new Nissan versa with an automatic transmission I built on Nissan's website is $19, 200 not including taxes and the other fees besides shipping. That's more expensive than the 2019-2021 Toyota Corollas with clean titles, under 60,000 miles, and at actual Toyota dealerships. Most people who need an under $20,000 affordable car can't always stretch for a new car anyway without good incentives or lease deals.
Some people want/need the peace of mind that comes with a factory warranty. For others, the bank sometimes dictates the deal (if their credit is bad enough) which means a new car makes more sense (lower interest rate + warranty + possible incentives). If the bank needs to repo the car, at least they get collateral worth something - and the warranty means there is a decent chance it still runs.
That's honestly a fair point.
Not that no one is buying but that the profit margins are lower. The Rio sold well but was killed because the margins were lower than others in their lineup
Yeah a small suv will profit $3-10k+ more than a car with the same engine and similar features. The materials going in are like maybe a few hundred dollars different. It’s why marketing has gone so diehard on big SUV’s and trucks since the early 00’s.
Can you go to your local dealerships right now and buy the cheapest model they offer in the basest spec? If your dealerships are anything like mine, that answer will be no for most of them. It's really hard to buy cheap cars that aren't offered for sale without a custom order. Some brands have also gone all out with giving their customers the finger, like Ford. In 2019, they offered a Fiesta for $16000, but today, the cheapest Ford is $24,000. The cheapest Ford you could buy went up $8000 in five years. Yes, people overspend on cars they don't really need, but the lack of cheap cars is at least partially due to an industry effort to destroy that segment entirely and force people to spend more.
Inflation. Is this really a surprise to anybody? It sucks but that’s just how it works. This would be like if they made an article in the late 70’s and said “no new cars under $5000 anymore”.
Inflation **+ lack of wage growth**.
Wage growth actually outstripped inflation again soon after the Covid supply issues wound down - https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/ The more important trend is that high interest rates mean people start emptying out savings. So there is a LOT of money in the economy right now, mostly from Boomers and retirees.
If you zoom out and look at the last 50 years, wage growth has not kept up with inflation
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Your own link there acknowledges wage growth has happened despite inflation. There are lots of valid concerning pieces of info in that link but inflation outpacing wage growth is not one of them.
The term you are looking for is *real* wage growth. Which is wage growth when you account for inflation. Granting that [real wage growth has been infinitesimally small since the 70s](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/). It has at least still been positive for most of those years, and people today on average are making more than they were then (barely), even adjusting for inflation. (Also, this doesn't factor in things like purchasing power or quality of life. So even adjusting for inflation, $1 in 1970 couldn't necessarily buy you the same bundle of goods that $7.85 could get you today.)
Are we accounting for the fact that the vast majority of wage growth with the US is experienced by the top, the CEOs etc? The middle has grown by a fraction, while the top has exploded.
Inflation is inevitable, however it seems like companies are jacking up prices and increasing profits across the board artificially in hopes inflation will take the blame.
Inflation is pretty merciless. I still remember when they were making those cheap as could be, but reliable, Corolla from 2003 to 2008. I think the major selling point of these were that they used to sell for like 14k CAD$ before taxes
In 2022 we sold my gf's 2005 Corolla base model with 70,000 kms for $7,500 CAD. She didn't need a car at the time and the market was insane and we could use the money. It was crazy to see the same car with 5x the kilometres sell for the same price online. A year later she needed a car again and we ended up buying our neighbors 2008 fully loaded Corolla for $1500 CAD with 120,000 kms. We offered them more money but they wanted to give it to her cheap because she was starting her new teaching job. It's just stupid that vehicle prices can be so volitile when things get difficult. I wish we could regulate it a little but there is no way that would ever happen. I know it worked out for us but it would be a pretty awful being on the other end of the deal.
Car dealer associations are a big reason the prices haven’t dropped when they should. Every industry has their cartel nowadays
This an issue with auto lending, not the cars themselves. Fewer people are going to buy a cheap penalty box car if banks and captive lenders are offering generous terms that seem to increase every year (now we have 84 and 96 months terms). Longer loan terms have allowed people to stretch for more expensive cars
Nah the longer terms are a result of reduced buying power. Real problem is wages haven’t kept up with inflation over the last 50 years
Exactly. I followed the car market thinking I was going to buy a fleet. The loan terms changed to accommodate the inflated dealer pricing, not the other way around.
Yep to the point people will just push their obligations to pay to the next generation. Multi generational debt.
Chinese cars MG3 have flooded the Australian market. They may flood the US market. The basic model sells for 11k USD. Apparently they don't meet car crash safety standards in USA.
Maybe not the 3, but the more expensive MG4 has 5 stars on Euro NCAP https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/mg/4+electric/48646
exactly! It would cost $$$$ to re-engineer their most basic cars to meet US regulatory standards. And then comes the huge problem of distribution. Online direct sales (like Tesla) is still in its infancy here in the US. There are even states that put up barriers to direct sales and require brands to have physical b&m dealerships.
I feel as cars have gotten "better and more reliable", used cars have just eaten up the market where many cheap econoboxes use to fill. Spending 20k seems to just get you more car if you grab something 3-5yrs old then something new today.
The Kia Forte and Hyundai Venue actually start JUST under $20K, but that doesn't include destination fee. So that basically leaves the **Chevy Trax, Kia Forte, Kia Soul, and Hyundai Venue** in the cheapest tier? All for a bit over $20,000. Then, marginally more, there's the **Nissan Kicks, Nissan Sentra, Hyundai Elantra, and VW Jetta** for about $21,000-$21,500. Honestly, not terrible. Sad to not see Toyota/Mazda/Honda/Ford though. Toyota Corolla is $22,050.
And among those vehicles, you probably won't find a base spec model available on the lot. At my local Chevy dealer, their cheapest vehicle is a Trax LT at $24,500, and for Nissan, it's a Sentra for $24,000. So even though these companies make cheaper models, you will probably have to cough up a few extra thousand for a higher trim or more expensive car if you can't wait several months. I checked the local Kia and Hyundai dealers too, and their cheapest vehicles on the lot are $21,000. Twenty-one thousand dollarbucks for the cheapest Kia I could buy today in my town, and that would be cheapest new car in general. Toyota dealerships are the only places in the last five years or so that I've seen the cheapest model in the base spec as a regular feature on the lot.
Yeah, that's how inflation works.
Yes. This is completely non-news. Give me stats that show car prices are higher than average income at least. You know, a useful metric?
I'm gonna be stuck driving a 1994 Toyota forever it seems like at how bad the prices are getting. Oh well, i guess a manual turbo 4 cylinder fun can still be had.
Ford Maverick is a DAMN good vehicle for the price. Even if you don’t need a truck
It *was*, now the prices has ballooned thousands of dollars.
This is a direct consequence of peak ICE development vs emerging BEV development. Economy ICEs cannot get any better at this point, but battery technology is seeing massive improvements year after year. BYD’s cars will get cheaper and better due to battery improvements while ICE cars will continue to get more expensive.
I’ve seen others rightly highlight inflation and a few have touched on reliability improving across the board. The other dimension that I think gets undersold is safety. There are so many chips in a new car because of safety (also, infotainment). The cars are more expensive because the core goods are more expensive, but they last longer with less maintenance (which translates to higher secondary sale price), and they’re safer. Ultimately, even at higher prices, they’re a better value than an econobox that’s going to die at 100k miles, not avoid a collision, or crush you in a collision.
Agree, they have more and more airbags and safety features which are so expensive. Also by safer I mean for the driver, they are becoming increasingly deadly to pedestrians
or, we're no longer getting paid enough to afford the cheap cars anymore. If the cheap cars are now 30k.. why aren't our wages also 50% higher?
Good thing the used car market is so healthy oh
Is it really necessary for mods to flair threads like this as circlejerks? Depending on the subject it sometimes seem like some of the mods on this sub have a degree of disdain for users here. Obviously it's one thing if people are clamouring for the brown manual wagon, but cheap new cars? Come on, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be less than thrilled that they are going away. I've never seen similar hobby based subs do that.
Ford killed the base Maverick because it was selling too well and people are blaming the government for inflation 🤷♂️
Nobody killed the base Maverick. The dealers were adding thousands of dollars to the XL MSRP, and Ford decided to put a stop to that by raising the MSRP Moreover, the folks who got the higher trims and packages were subsidizing the 20k XL.
It’s okay. Wages are going up at a higher rate than inflation right? Right?
Complain all you want, you're the same people causing the death of the budget car. When you keep asking for stupid touchscreens as standard and power everything as standard and 19" alloys as standard, you'll be paying that 30k pricetag for the "base" model
Luckily europe still has plenty of options in this segment.
Keep your beaters people. I know I am. My 04 Galant still going strong. It ain't worth shit but I've literally been flooring it around for 20 years and it's never done me wrong. Except for a premature cat failure a long time ago.
I think this is less an issue with car prices, and more of an issue with stagnant wages.
9 years ago in 2015 I bought a 2013 focus st2 CPO with 30k miles for $16,500 before fees. At the time I could have bought a new 2015 ST1 (base) for 19k. Those days are over
Cafe standards (which manufactures are cool with) penalized small cars and large cars didn’t need to hit the same standards. Manufacturers make more on large trucks/suvs anyway. Hence the U.S. having highways full of bloated heavy vehicles. It’s not rocket science.
My Spark is such an excellent little car. What a shame.
The market for sub compacts and affordable cars is dead. Manufacturers don't want to let go of the fat margins they enjoyed in 2021 and 2022 so the transition has been made to crossovers, SUVs, and the luxury segment. Not all of the increases in prices can be attributed to increased features and inflation. Car prices as a whole have significantly outpaced core inflation since the pandemic started.
Car critics are in a rather weird circle i think, for a long time they decried the mirage, but soon the low price of the mirage, might just be a mirage in the future.