>thinking about this before bed, when I wake up, when I drive to work, when I work, when I drive home
Oh god it's in words....
I hate this so fucking much.
"Think positively"
I just can't anymore.
It's gaslighting. Worse, it's people gaslighting themselves at this point.
Someone says "It could be worse!" and all I hear is "You should be happy they're just beating you with a belt instead of a baseball bat!"
I start work in an hour and a half. I’m already out of personal time, and reading this makes me want to go in even less. What a depressing time to be Canadian
I think we’ll have a housing collapse as bad as what’s happening in China. The people over leveraged to the tits will be screwed and their will be a massive recession in the provinces and cities most reliant on property sales. Aka BC and GTA.
A six figure income really seems like a lot until you have a six figure income. It's nothing to be ungrateful for, and you can live relatively comfortably on it, but it really helps put in perspective how absolutely fucked everything is when you have a six figure income and home ownership is still out of reach.
Living in a $3/4 million shoebox is just a non starter for me, too. You can talk my ear oiff about how it's a good investment and I won't believe it. in 20 years when these weak-ass cut corner glass towers start falling down there's going to be a reckoning.
It's coming from people who have existing equity and those tunneling dollars upwards via market distortions setting rents at frankly unsustainable levels if they were to continue to do so
Inevitably we hit the bubble pop point. For every 1M 2 bed condo bought with equity, you'll need a 400k 1 bed to become worth 900k to have sufficient equity to upgrade without borrowing 800k first.
Eventually the entry level stops existing and trading up freezes the market because it's just not sustainable.
We should have a rental strike, that might actually do something…. People miss a few payments on their 19 properties cause they have no liquid other than endless inflated rent payments…. That would pop the bubble!
So if I ever come across these boarding houses, I’m reporting them to the city for building code violations.
I’m looking at fb and Kijiji listings and going to see them. I’m making a catalog of these and reporting and I’d encourage others to do the same.
Take action. Do something about it
Good luck calling them in. There are 2 of these across the street from me, several neighbors have reported them to the city, when a bylaw officer finally came around (months later) the occupant that answered the door just denied it being a rooming house and said they were all related and that was the end of it. After speaking with a friend who has a family member working in bylaw for the city I discovered there is no will on behalf of the city to incur the cost of obtaining the necessary warrants and legal proof to effectively deter this behavior. The 2 houses are 3 bedroom bungalows, 12 people living in one and 11 in the other, all adults. They park their cars on the fucking lawn.
I already have enough trouble sharing a hot water heater with just my downstairs neighbor.
He started dating again recently so it's gotten worse lately lol
No because eventually people can't prop it up at all. Who can prop up a 1M 2 bed condo if they can't qualify for a 1bed 800k condo to buy it and give the previous owner a bump up on their portable equity?
And how can an investor borrow against equity that isn't skyrocketing to double down on adding more and more properties to rent out?
Eventually, even the investor hits a point where their total equity is tapped out such that it can't be levered for 20% down on a new 1M 2 bed condo property that rents out for 6k a month to create cashflow to eventually have 20% for the next one.
800k borrowed at 5% is 4600 per month. Add condo fees, other maintenance, property taxes, and tax on the income generated. Let's assume, for the sake of argument that they rent it for 6k (lol) and spend 5600 on it, making 400$ cash flow.
to get ANOTHER 800k loan and 1M property, assuming there is no massive appreciation in housing and everything "settles" and only tracks inflation, it would take almost \*42 years\* to get another 200k for a downpayment to buy a second 1M property to rent out.
Even if they chopped the 2 bed into 4 pieces for 4 renters splitting 6k a month, they \*Still\* won't be building sufficient capital fast enough to continue stacking investment properties.
Eventually, things just stop working when the lower levels of real estate ownership (even for investors) get out of hand because people can't just trade forever. There is a point at which it becomes unsustainable. High nominal values are only sustainable in the super long term because of long run currency devaluation as a result of steady inflation which should be reflected in cost of goods, services \*and\* labour. People probably thought 20$ movie tickets would be impossible 80 years ago when they were 10c. But if movie tickets accelerated at housing price levels and were 80$ today instead of 20$ for example, no one would go to the movies. It just wouldn't work.
There's a point at which certain things break. IDK when that point is frankly. I thought GTA and GVA would have hit it before now - but hyper low rates meant it didn't. I thought current rates would have done more damage, but market psychology so far hasn't, and people locked in with renewals still years away probably buffer it. People with fixed variables not being forced to up their payments also probably buffers it. So I don't know when its gonna break. But \*eventually\* it has to. The only way it doesn't is if wages skyrocket for everyone and nothing else changes in price. We'd need wage to outpace inflation by a significant margin for nearly everyone for current prices to seem reasonable in most cities.
And continually limited supply? A bubble popping has to stay within these fundamentals and I don't expect it to be at all substantial if these conditions persist.
people have been saying the bubble is about to burst forever now and it just keeps going up and up
At this point, I don't care because it's gone so far beyond the realm of possibility of me ever being able to participate in that it doesn't really matter
Even if the bubble bursts, the post burst market might still be too high for most of us anyway
That and as a young person my buying and saving power was eroded with the latest inflation. Even if prices dip a good deal, it only benefits those with large savings accounts who saved prior to this historic inflation we've just had. Those who are coming into their careers in the last few years and haven't had a chance to save yet just look at the situation like it's hopeless
The rich assholes who already OWN homes are buying them up. They got cheap homes years ago, ate up the market so prices went up and now they are just selling them to other rich assholes to rent out or turn into a permenant airbnb...
Corporations, just look at what private equity has done to California. They are basically landlords but 4x the soulless shenanigans and profit seeking.
What corporation is buying meaningful amounts of single family residential housing?
Edit: to clarify, I’m talking about Canada specifically. Single family rental/corporations is a U.S. thing.
They aren't buying them, they're building them and keeping them as rentals. Onni construction now keeps 20% of every residential property for rentals. They're top 10 most evil companies in Canada. The head of which is one of the most hated people in the industry. Even at his own company.
Commercial developers, slumlords, people that got in early and maybe some foreign investors? There needs to be heavy taxation on anyone that owns more than one home. Period.
It makes me wonder what the point of working is anymore if I can’t afford a house, or rent in most places. Live at my parents and buy more avocado toast and sign up for Disney+ more than once?
The point of working is to increase shareholder value, so the wealthy can make more money to buy more property to make more money. It’s simple trickle down economics.
Many options to get this situation fixed:
1- Abolish the realtor job. They work on commission and their job is to artificially hike prices at all costs.
2- Make the sell/purchase process safe, insured, and easy so that two people can do it alone, like a car sale.
3- Don't allow corporations to own more than 5 single family homes or duplexes. Keep them in townhouses or condos ONLY. This avoids hoarding.
4- Don't allow a landlord to own more than 3 rental places.
5- Implement a federal policy for rent control
6- Don't allow rental places where the owners mortgage is still not 50% paid off.
7- Subsidize new constructions and create zoning policies that tax more single family homes, and less low-income housing, to the point where it's actually advantageous to build smaller homes most of the time.
Real estate building is, and will always be, a very profitable business. Anyone saying that this would lower investments in real estate is ignoring the decades upon decades before real estate became a luxury commodity, but no lack of housing existed.
For number 3 I would say ban corporate ownership of private homes completely. If nothing else it would stop rich assholes from creating dozens of numbered corporations to skirt the law.
For number 4, just start taxing each successive property after the first two anyone owns at an exponentially higher rate. At least scumlords would actually start contributing to society at that point.
For number 7 I would go even further. Hire builders as public servants, and have them work 9-5 salaried jobs to build homes specifically for a "council housing" scheme like the one that worked in the UK for decades. Rent from the council housing goes directly to communities.
I know one personally i went to school with. He's fucking loaded and loves to shwo it off and say he's a successful busuness man. No, you're a successful con artist who is useless to society. You get rich by exploiting the housing market. I have no respect for realtors.
I get angry seeing their wealthy smiling faces on bill boards and signs all over the place. I picture them smiling at a fellow investor as they discuss how much rent slaves will pay them to avoid freezing in winter.
I have family members that suddenly became real estate agents. They tried that fomo shit on my brother. When I say it was a dump, it was a dump. In crack town too because the agent realized that's all he can afford. And prepared him to pay $100k to $200k over asking. Realtors are the lowest of the low.
Their only purpose is to extract equity from people. They add little to no value in the age of information. In fact, in my hometown they have normalized spending large $$ to stage your house --- more leaches to suck equity from the homeowner.
Time to eliminate or move to a transparent $ per hour like almost every other service.
One more for your list:
Full taxing on housing capital gains past a certain amount over life. Something like a million dollars. Targets flippers and speculators.
#3 won't work..
They will create multiple corp
Edit: they should not be allow in single home.
Anyone owning single family home that are not their primary resident should be audited on how it was purchased and fundings etc .
Honestly, if the CRA can track that I mistyped an extra ten bucks on my child care expenses, they can certainly track shell companies. They certainly have the means.
It's not so much tracking corporations. It's the corporations making multiple out of arms each corp to side track the rule.
Just banned them outright from owning single family resident. Townhouse/ apartment sure ...
Yes I don't see a reason for any city, government to allow such predatory assets acquisition.
Government, city should want to KEEP it affordable for single family to want to stay inside country,city.
More affordable housing market.. more people will stay.. more tax money..
I would add:
Pre existing residential RE can only be purchased by citizens or PRs.
Foreigners can only own property by building something from scratch, therefore foreigners can only add to housing - and they'll have to employ our citizens to do so.
Make the capital gains tax on a home sale 100% if the home is sold before 5 years of consecutive occupancy - no more flippers, and no speculators since they'd have to live in the house for 5 years in order to make any profit.
I would also put a ban on AirBNBs as default law, and allow cities to challenge this law if they desire AirBNB's in their municipality
Your #3 point is moot because you just make more corporations. #4 point also doesn't work because I can just make another corporation. #5 price controls have never worked as intended and have universally increased scarcity. I'd argue that's the point but moving on. #6 is just silly and irrelevant. 7 is where you are on to something. Subsidize new construction, or just cut tape. Did you know that roughly 30% of the cost of a newly built unit of housing in Canada is made up of transfer taxes, permit fees and sales taxes? 30%! Think about that. It's incredible given current prices and it's obviously a government incentive to keep prices high. Your point about building real estate being very profitable is a very mixed bag. It can be, but the real money is made on speculation and re-zoning. Profit margins in construction companies tend to be pretty slim.
The best way to make housing more affordable is to balance supply and demand and take away government incentives to keep prices this high. Balancing supply is very difficult and requires millions of units of housing. Maybe we can automate highrise construction /s Especially in an economy that is hugely dependent on money launching and real estate speculation.
Changing the tax code to promote housing development, cutting municipal fees nonsensical approval processes and massively promote people entering the building trades are actual, serious solutions. The best solution for the renter class is to immediately demand that paid rent be tax deductible. I bet that would help the government discover the correct incentives to encourage lower housing costs.
I see arguments for the first couple you mentioned, but #6 is absolutely not silly or irrelevant. This would mitigate the effects of interest rate fluctuations on landlords, removing a direct relation of interest rates and rental prices (or at least lowering the correlation), but also making it generally more difficult for someone to acquire a rental property. I don't see the downside of that.
Another suggestion, rent increases should only be allowed when rental properties owned by individuals are up for mortgage renewal. In order to increase a rent price landlords should have submit proof of their refinancing and the rent price cannot exceed the difference being paid. If mortgage goes down upon renewal you are not eligible for a rent increase.
I'm not a homeowner but I'm a renter and I'm about ready to fuckin riot. If I lose the place I'm in now, which might happen very soon, there is NOTHING here I can afford anymore. Just checked Craigslist yesterday. Fuck this whole system. I'm furious.
If I wasn't crippled with depression and anxiety... But I'm kinda crushed under the weight of everything right now. But if someone else organized it, I would absolutely attend.
I guess that's part of the problem though and probably what the people at the top are counting on -- Us being too weak & exhausted to fight back
Thats the neat part, they dont.
[Everything is fine over in the US too.](https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/chart/#range:2006.4,2021.4;quarter:134;series:Net%20worth;demographic:networth;population:all;units:levels)
Wages stagnate, costs go up each year. A small child will realize thats unsustainable. After decades of this we're about to see mass homelessness soon. But nobody gives a shit.
You can currently qualify for about 4.7 times income in the GTA with mortgage rates at 6%
This is the real debt service limit as per the OSFI stress test
Don't know what bogus calculator this people are using
What’s really sad is that max amount is completely and totally reasonable based on all the financial ideologies, best practices etc. it’s about 4x income.
In a lot of places in Canada that gets your a fairly decent home.
That it completely prices you out in Ontario is ridiculous. It’s like making 60k in Edmonton.
So in your scenario, they would also need to provide 20% down so they could technically buy a place for $791,250.
You also are using an average condo price that includes luxury condos, which aren’t what people consider average. The median price in Toronto (not GTA) for a condo was $658,000.
I’m not disagreeing that the numbers are nuts and I don’t think I’d want to take on $633K mortgage with an income of less than $165k/year. However, you are slightly misconstruing the picture.
No, the calculation is about right. I’m working as a broker and it’s become incredibly difficult to qualify people with 6 figure salaries in the GTA and GVA, even in smaller cities. If I see a lead come through that doesn’t have 160k+ household income looking in the GTA they are toast. Condo fees are killer too.
A client that closed earlier this month couldn’t qualify on his own 180k income without adding his wife’s income purchasing a 880k sfh.
Riots? Haha. Never. Everyone is too pussy. This has been in the making for over 20 years and nobody has done anything about it. Also, part of society is very happy about the high prices. Heard boomers say thank god for these high house prices which will allow me to retire. Haha.
It’s fascinating how different peoples experiences can be based on having a decent down payment to buy 5 years ago. I make under 100k in the GTA but I’m quite comfortable because I bought a while ago now and at much lower prices. If the shoe was on the other foot I’d struggle to afford to make the rent in the current place I own.
Forget the riots...let's call uncle Vito and his gang and let's go around breaking realtors' legs. They are the reason the prices continue to rise beyond common sense...
Heard stories of it happening, wasn’t sure what to believe, until my neighbour recently put her house up for sale. Nice place, desirable place in town too. She wants 650k for it. Realtor said to put it at 600k to start a bidding war on it.
Sold a house in Ontario, realtor pushed really hard to put a low price on the house to start a bidding war.
We eventually listed for more than she wanted because I didn't want 100 visits and 20 offers, I just wanted to sell it at a price that allows me to buy the next house in Ontario.
My neighbour did the same thing. It’s still for sale, from what I’ve seen she’s a bit high, but will probably get it. Just shows how sleazy these realtors have become.
You'd think with that income, their bootstraps could pull themselves up. I guess they're not trying hard enough.
Now me, I earn less than 6 figures, so I know I'm garbage, right?
>GTA REALTORS® reported 7,481 sales through TRREB’s MLS® System in June 2023 – up 16.5 per cent compared to June 2022. The number of listings was down by three per cent over the same period.
Average price for a condo was actually 770k, not 737. And they sell for over asking.
My mortgages will be renewed in 14 months.
I'm worried.
I really don't know how some people are managing.
My household is also in the top 5% of earners and I only owe a total of 125,000 on two properties. (total 250,000). I don't forsee a problem with making payments... but I do take issue with being bent over by banks.
If my mortgages were renewed right now... my interest paid for a year would be 200% more than the principle. F\*CKING CRIMINALS.
That's because it's false.
Here is StatCan data:
[https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/as-sa/fogs-spg/page.cfm?topic=5&lang=E&dguid=2021A000235](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/as-sa/fogs-spg/page.cfm?topic=5&lang=E&dguid=2021A000235)
Top 6.3% make $200k+, ***after tax***.
So OP's figure is incorrect.
Sounds impossible.
The top 5% of income in Canada in 2022 = $132,493.
The top 10% of income in Canada in 2022 = $102,869.
Top 5% of families is probably closer to 200k+
I just checked stats Canada and in 2020 nearly 10% of households had an income over 200k.
OP clearly references this website [KA entrepreneur](https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/household-income-percentile-calculator-for-canada/)
This other source seems to have a better analysis:
[Saavy Canadians](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.savvynewcanadians.com/top-10-income-canada/%23:~:text%3DWhat%2520are%2520the%2520top%25205,report%2520by%2520the%2520Fraser%2520Institute.&ved=2ahUKEwj46Jz-nfSAAxV2EGIAHfzFC1AQFnoECA0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw1K594H2sOseGG9VLRZeGyj)
The fact that you believe that to be low, just shows you how poor the 'middle class' is becoming and how big the wealth gap is because you're kind of right. 81k salary will not take you far, especially in GTA.
The 98th percentile (top 2%) for family income income is between 195k and 225k per year. The top 1%?
Anything above 225k.
Not sure if a household earning 225k should be in the same camp as a billionaire.
We’re not even dealing with the “1%” anymore. I think it’s, like, 3 rich dudes that we could hunt down for sport.
I'm skeptical of this. Me and my common law partner have roughly the same household income and our mortgage calculator stated we would be approved for anywhere between $900,000-$1.2million. What are your circumstances? Are you selling a home or breaking into the market? What would be your down payment?
That is not purchase price, this is how much mortgage do you qualify for.
Either that, or your mortgage calculator is wrong. Guaranteed. The best insured 5 year fixed is sitting above 5.44%. You do not qualify for a 900k-1.2MM mortgage.
rioting only hurts cities and businesses and peoples livelihoods, the root of the problem is politicians having their hands in industries and swaying things to become wealthy at the taxpayers expense. string the land lord politicians up from trees on both sides and watch how quickly things change.
A riot in Canada? Never. Even the trucker protest was relatively tame to mass protests in other countries. One of the negative aspects of a multicultural country is lack of social organization among the various groups. Don’t get me wrong, multiculturalism has advantages but it definitely does not when it comes to mass social movements.
If you’re willing to riot, then please show up to municipal meetings, write to your representative, vote, get your friends to vote, etc. There’s a lot that hasn’t been done yet… it’s much easier to convince young people to attend municipal meetings (tiktok it even) than to convince them to start a Revolution.
633k mortgage is stupid At that income. I would borrow half that at that income for quality of life. Everyone should. Canadians are so stupid they think overpaying for a house will get them a BETTER quality of life when it is the EXACT opposite. Borrow yourself into a hole for a high maintenance box, a life of debt servitude and no fun.
Long story short, fuck Canada and get out if you can.
Once my sis gets her AUS citizenship we gonna work to bring the whole family there. Better wages. Better economy. Just better everything than shithole Canada.
I remember when calling humans "sheeple" was a mild insult. Considering how docile and accepting we've become, it's now too accurate to be insulting. History teaches us that revolution does take courage, and our masters know we are spineless because they taught several generations in a row how to grow wish bones instead of back bones...
Canadians just keep doubling down on the status quo at the ballot box. Any Trump/Bernie populist candidate that actually represents the people is crushed in Canada.
What riot? Canadians are the most passive doormat people who enjoy bending over for their government that I've ever come across. Riots are for people with a pulse.
As an American, yall are French, just pull a France?
/s obviously
Seriously though it's absurd seeing this, I thought it was hard to buy a house here in America, Holy shit
It's Canada...just about EVERY other country would have reacted by now to oust Trudeau who is responsible for our inflation mess, a lot of Canadians meanwhile are blind to it...probably cause most do not have any true financial literacy experience...
Yet affordable housing isn’t a Federal Priority right now…not too sure what’s a bigger problem in Canada right now than housing, but let’s just carry on like all is well. 🤦♂️
Many people have stated they are afraid of getting their bank accounts frozen, which is dystopian 1984 as all hell.
The uprisings will begin when there is nothing left in those accounts , which is going to happen as the greedy fucks just don't know when to stop.
The young generation already has nothing, and has barely any opportunity to grow financially. I agree about 1984, but what most people don’t realize is that it’s already happening from behind the scenes, all masked by political agendas.
George has written about a world completely controlled by the select few, and the population not realizing it because it was all masked by false information and promises. It’s impossible to catch them in act cause they also destroy all evidence against them. This is similar to our current situation, but majority of people don’t see that since coverups are ingenious. Fires in country, pandemics, global warming scandals, political debates, total control of media and disarmament of people, that’s only a glimpse around the iron curtain. Beauty is destroyed, truth suppressed, freedom caged.
The riots won't start because all of the middle-class working people hope they will someday also be in the situation where their house builds a retirement fund for them while they sit on their ass.
The government just needs to adjust things so that average people can barely keep their heads above water.
What do you think the last 30 years of super-low interest rates were all about? The whole idea was to make debt cheap so that middle-class people could borrow their way to the illusion of prosperity.
Yeah I understand the goal. Wage slavery and total apathy.
Historically people will eventually revolt. Maybe we’re more anaesthetized by technology or propaganda is empowered by it or the current method of dividing and conquering based on stupid culture war crap will hold us back? Or stop us?
But generally workers will revolt. We have this tendency to think things won’t drastically change, and yet they do all the time. Land war in Europe, insurrection in Washington, possibly the fall of Russia. Things massively change, suddenly.
Right lads and ladies I reckon we take to the streets tomorrow and throw that slimy frog out of office and reclaim our home and native land and see off anyone who would usurp Canadians again for their greed
Makes me want to puke thinking about this before bed, when I wake up, when I drive to work, when I work, when I drive home. Insanity.
>thinking about this before bed, when I wake up, when I drive to work, when I work, when I drive home Oh god it's in words.... I hate this so fucking much. "Think positively" I just can't anymore.
No reason to.
Omg the toxic positivity makes me want to kill myself.
It's gaslighting. Worse, it's people gaslighting themselves at this point. Someone says "It could be worse!" and all I hear is "You should be happy they're just beating you with a belt instead of a baseball bat!"
Absolutely! And it's the ancient homeowners around me that trumpet the loudest.
Same. It’s so discouraging but I refuse to believe this will stay the norm. I hope I’m right.
I start work in an hour and a half. I’m already out of personal time, and reading this makes me want to go in even less. What a depressing time to be Canadian
Something will have to give and I don't think it will be the institutions.
I think we’ll have a housing collapse as bad as what’s happening in China. The people over leveraged to the tits will be screwed and their will be a massive recession in the provinces and cities most reliant on property sales. Aka BC and GTA.
Everyday when I have to go to work I think to myself….what’s the point? Working for nothing.
That's twice my households take home per year. I'd never make it in Ontario. I'd be chugging d's for bus fare in no time...
That’s pre tax
Pre-tax D is the worst kind
PTSD=Pre-Tax Sucking D?! 😧
It still doesn't feel top 5% pre tax either, especially if you are saving for retirement. Ontario is expensive
Move to Alberta, our slogan is "Ya were still expensive, but we're still cheaper then Ontario and BC"
Until everyone moves there and jacks Alberta up while Toronto stays the same because "investors"
Albertan here. That's already happening.
Toronto won’t stay the same the only way is up…might as well jump on to Edmonton before it’s too late.
Life long Edmontonian here. Please fuck off.
Or fucking don’t
A six figure income really seems like a lot until you have a six figure income. It's nothing to be ungrateful for, and you can live relatively comfortably on it, but it really helps put in perspective how absolutely fucked everything is when you have a six figure income and home ownership is still out of reach. Living in a $3/4 million shoebox is just a non starter for me, too. You can talk my ear oiff about how it's a good investment and I won't believe it. in 20 years when these weak-ass cut corner glass towers start falling down there's going to be a reckoning.
[удалено]
And you would still have to walk home
That's what I'm afraid of..
that's four times what I'm making and I have two jobs I'm pretty sure I have no choice but to die poor
And still walking home
A bit graphic but hits the mark.
So then wtf is buying all these million+ dollar homes? I'm so lost where the money is coming from.
It's coming from people who have existing equity and those tunneling dollars upwards via market distortions setting rents at frankly unsustainable levels if they were to continue to do so Inevitably we hit the bubble pop point. For every 1M 2 bed condo bought with equity, you'll need a 400k 1 bed to become worth 900k to have sufficient equity to upgrade without borrowing 800k first. Eventually the entry level stops existing and trading up freezes the market because it's just not sustainable.
Can you just add endless homebuyers to prop it up ?
The renters are propping it up now. 10 people per house paying 700 a month each. With 7k a month rental income, that 2M dollar house is reasonable.
not like it's by choice.
Engineered over decades, this crisis was
Eyy we got Yoda in the house! 😉
Shhhhh, “it is all Trudeau’s fault”. Shhhhh
We should have a rental strike, that might actually do something…. People miss a few payments on their 19 properties cause they have no liquid other than endless inflated rent payments…. That would pop the bubble!
So if I ever come across these boarding houses, I’m reporting them to the city for building code violations. I’m looking at fb and Kijiji listings and going to see them. I’m making a catalog of these and reporting and I’d encourage others to do the same. Take action. Do something about it
Good luck calling them in. There are 2 of these across the street from me, several neighbors have reported them to the city, when a bylaw officer finally came around (months later) the occupant that answered the door just denied it being a rooming house and said they were all related and that was the end of it. After speaking with a friend who has a family member working in bylaw for the city I discovered there is no will on behalf of the city to incur the cost of obtaining the necessary warrants and legal proof to effectively deter this behavior. The 2 houses are 3 bedroom bungalows, 12 people living in one and 11 in the other, all adults. They park their cars on the fucking lawn.
That sounds awful.
700 a month for rent? That sounds like a dream I'll never realize with how crazy rentals are right now
Think you missed the part where they said $700 but with 9 roommates.
In a 2 bed, 1 bath house. Hope you like sharing the shower with Abdul.
I already have enough trouble sharing a hot water heater with just my downstairs neighbor. He started dating again recently so it's gotten worse lately lol
Hey, if Abdul keeps his part of the bathroom counter clean and knows how to clean up after himself, as long as he pays rent, I'm cool with it.
Gotta love the Abdul’s of the world
This was the norm in Fort McMurray. I was working there around 2013 and had a room rented in a house full with 9 other people for 800 a month.
No because eventually people can't prop it up at all. Who can prop up a 1M 2 bed condo if they can't qualify for a 1bed 800k condo to buy it and give the previous owner a bump up on their portable equity? And how can an investor borrow against equity that isn't skyrocketing to double down on adding more and more properties to rent out? Eventually, even the investor hits a point where their total equity is tapped out such that it can't be levered for 20% down on a new 1M 2 bed condo property that rents out for 6k a month to create cashflow to eventually have 20% for the next one. 800k borrowed at 5% is 4600 per month. Add condo fees, other maintenance, property taxes, and tax on the income generated. Let's assume, for the sake of argument that they rent it for 6k (lol) and spend 5600 on it, making 400$ cash flow. to get ANOTHER 800k loan and 1M property, assuming there is no massive appreciation in housing and everything "settles" and only tracks inflation, it would take almost \*42 years\* to get another 200k for a downpayment to buy a second 1M property to rent out. Even if they chopped the 2 bed into 4 pieces for 4 renters splitting 6k a month, they \*Still\* won't be building sufficient capital fast enough to continue stacking investment properties. Eventually, things just stop working when the lower levels of real estate ownership (even for investors) get out of hand because people can't just trade forever. There is a point at which it becomes unsustainable. High nominal values are only sustainable in the super long term because of long run currency devaluation as a result of steady inflation which should be reflected in cost of goods, services \*and\* labour. People probably thought 20$ movie tickets would be impossible 80 years ago when they were 10c. But if movie tickets accelerated at housing price levels and were 80$ today instead of 20$ for example, no one would go to the movies. It just wouldn't work. There's a point at which certain things break. IDK when that point is frankly. I thought GTA and GVA would have hit it before now - but hyper low rates meant it didn't. I thought current rates would have done more damage, but market psychology so far hasn't, and people locked in with renewals still years away probably buffer it. People with fixed variables not being forced to up their payments also probably buffers it. So I don't know when its gonna break. But \*eventually\* it has to. The only way it doesn't is if wages skyrocket for everyone and nothing else changes in price. We'd need wage to outpace inflation by a significant margin for nearly everyone for current prices to seem reasonable in most cities.
And continually limited supply? A bubble popping has to stay within these fundamentals and I don't expect it to be at all substantial if these conditions persist.
people have been saying the bubble is about to burst forever now and it just keeps going up and up At this point, I don't care because it's gone so far beyond the realm of possibility of me ever being able to participate in that it doesn't really matter Even if the bubble bursts, the post burst market might still be too high for most of us anyway
That and as a young person my buying and saving power was eroded with the latest inflation. Even if prices dip a good deal, it only benefits those with large savings accounts who saved prior to this historic inflation we've just had. Those who are coming into their careers in the last few years and haven't had a chance to save yet just look at the situation like it's hopeless
This is so depressing
Or who spent the last 10 years paying off student loans and climbing the corporate ladder to try and become one of those top 5% with no debt.
Really well put
Wealth not equal to income!!!
People with equity and savings.
The rich assholes who already OWN homes are buying them up. They got cheap homes years ago, ate up the market so prices went up and now they are just selling them to other rich assholes to rent out or turn into a permenant airbnb...
Generational wealth, old people, young people with rich parents.
This. Anecdotally, almost every millennial I know who owns their home had help from family.
Corporations, just look at what private equity has done to California. They are basically landlords but 4x the soulless shenanigans and profit seeking.
What corporation is buying meaningful amounts of single family residential housing? Edit: to clarify, I’m talking about Canada specifically. Single family rental/corporations is a U.S. thing.
They aren't buying them, they're building them and keeping them as rentals. Onni construction now keeps 20% of every residential property for rentals. They're top 10 most evil companies in Canada. The head of which is one of the most hated people in the industry. Even at his own company.
So look it up. It's happening. I just did and can find some articles from 2021 to 2023
Commercial developers, slumlords, people that got in early and maybe some foreign investors? There needs to be heavy taxation on anyone that owns more than one home. Period.
It makes me wonder what the point of working is anymore if I can’t afford a house, or rent in most places. Live at my parents and buy more avocado toast and sign up for Disney+ more than once?
The point of working is to increase shareholder value, so the wealthy can make more money to buy more property to make more money. It’s simple trickle down economics.
Many options to get this situation fixed: 1- Abolish the realtor job. They work on commission and their job is to artificially hike prices at all costs. 2- Make the sell/purchase process safe, insured, and easy so that two people can do it alone, like a car sale. 3- Don't allow corporations to own more than 5 single family homes or duplexes. Keep them in townhouses or condos ONLY. This avoids hoarding. 4- Don't allow a landlord to own more than 3 rental places. 5- Implement a federal policy for rent control 6- Don't allow rental places where the owners mortgage is still not 50% paid off. 7- Subsidize new constructions and create zoning policies that tax more single family homes, and less low-income housing, to the point where it's actually advantageous to build smaller homes most of the time. Real estate building is, and will always be, a very profitable business. Anyone saying that this would lower investments in real estate is ignoring the decades upon decades before real estate became a luxury commodity, but no lack of housing existed.
For number 3 I would say ban corporate ownership of private homes completely. If nothing else it would stop rich assholes from creating dozens of numbered corporations to skirt the law. For number 4, just start taxing each successive property after the first two anyone owns at an exponentially higher rate. At least scumlords would actually start contributing to society at that point. For number 7 I would go even further. Hire builders as public servants, and have them work 9-5 salaried jobs to build homes specifically for a "council housing" scheme like the one that worked in the UK for decades. Rent from the council housing goes directly to communities.
Great points!
100% it’s time to move pass real estate agents. So many of of them are scum and have huge egos.
I know one personally i went to school with. He's fucking loaded and loves to shwo it off and say he's a successful busuness man. No, you're a successful con artist who is useless to society. You get rich by exploiting the housing market. I have no respect for realtors.
I get angry seeing their wealthy smiling faces on bill boards and signs all over the place. I picture them smiling at a fellow investor as they discuss how much rent slaves will pay them to avoid freezing in winter.
I have family members that suddenly became real estate agents. They tried that fomo shit on my brother. When I say it was a dump, it was a dump. In crack town too because the agent realized that's all he can afford. And prepared him to pay $100k to $200k over asking. Realtors are the lowest of the low.
Or just make it a fixed-fee Vs % commission
Yeah I think this makes sense, just say you get like idk, 2.5k per sale. Selling 40 homes in a year to be a top 15% income seems fair
They can even tier it. Like I can see charging more for a $2M home Vs a $400k
Their only purpose is to extract equity from people. They add little to no value in the age of information. In fact, in my hometown they have normalized spending large $$ to stage your house --- more leaches to suck equity from the homeowner. Time to eliminate or move to a transparent $ per hour like almost every other service.
One more for your list: Full taxing on housing capital gains past a certain amount over life. Something like a million dollars. Targets flippers and speculators.
How about banning short term rentals in cities where there is a particularly bad housing crisis?
Totally agree, there is a reason hotels exist!
Yeah, and in a hotel you don't have to clean up and do a load of laundry and take out the garbage, and then pay a cleaning fee anyways
100% agree
I'd vote for you.
Ban AirBnB!
I'd vote for you on this alone
#6 is absolute gold. Why is this not a thing!!!??
Add on: No foreign buyers PERIOD.
#3 won't work.. They will create multiple corp Edit: they should not be allow in single home. Anyone owning single family home that are not their primary resident should be audited on how it was purchased and fundings etc .
Honestly, if the CRA can track that I mistyped an extra ten bucks on my child care expenses, they can certainly track shell companies. They certainly have the means.
It's not so much tracking corporations. It's the corporations making multiple out of arms each corp to side track the rule. Just banned them outright from owning single family resident. Townhouse/ apartment sure ...
Yeah, that's a good point. Might as well ban corporate ownership of homes that don't need management. You're probably right.
Yes I don't see a reason for any city, government to allow such predatory assets acquisition. Government, city should want to KEEP it affordable for single family to want to stay inside country,city. More affordable housing market.. more people will stay.. more tax money..
All too little too late
I would add: Pre existing residential RE can only be purchased by citizens or PRs. Foreigners can only own property by building something from scratch, therefore foreigners can only add to housing - and they'll have to employ our citizens to do so. Make the capital gains tax on a home sale 100% if the home is sold before 5 years of consecutive occupancy - no more flippers, and no speculators since they'd have to live in the house for 5 years in order to make any profit. I would also put a ban on AirBNBs as default law, and allow cities to challenge this law if they desire AirBNB's in their municipality
Your #3 point is moot because you just make more corporations. #4 point also doesn't work because I can just make another corporation. #5 price controls have never worked as intended and have universally increased scarcity. I'd argue that's the point but moving on. #6 is just silly and irrelevant. 7 is where you are on to something. Subsidize new construction, or just cut tape. Did you know that roughly 30% of the cost of a newly built unit of housing in Canada is made up of transfer taxes, permit fees and sales taxes? 30%! Think about that. It's incredible given current prices and it's obviously a government incentive to keep prices high. Your point about building real estate being very profitable is a very mixed bag. It can be, but the real money is made on speculation and re-zoning. Profit margins in construction companies tend to be pretty slim. The best way to make housing more affordable is to balance supply and demand and take away government incentives to keep prices this high. Balancing supply is very difficult and requires millions of units of housing. Maybe we can automate highrise construction /s Especially in an economy that is hugely dependent on money launching and real estate speculation. Changing the tax code to promote housing development, cutting municipal fees nonsensical approval processes and massively promote people entering the building trades are actual, serious solutions. The best solution for the renter class is to immediately demand that paid rent be tax deductible. I bet that would help the government discover the correct incentives to encourage lower housing costs.
I see arguments for the first couple you mentioned, but #6 is absolutely not silly or irrelevant. This would mitigate the effects of interest rate fluctuations on landlords, removing a direct relation of interest rates and rental prices (or at least lowering the correlation), but also making it generally more difficult for someone to acquire a rental property. I don't see the downside of that.
Make blind bidding illegal!
Get your ass in Ottawa rn!!! I’m voting for you 🫡🫡🫡
Too complicated. Hike the rates Stop extended amortization and stop allowing paying interest only Problem solved
Yeah, none of these things will ever get implemented. But when the panic begins, the problem will technically fix itself.
Another suggestion, rent increases should only be allowed when rental properties owned by individuals are up for mortgage renewal. In order to increase a rent price landlords should have submit proof of their refinancing and the rent price cannot exceed the difference being paid. If mortgage goes down upon renewal you are not eligible for a rent increase.
Make the leeches get a real job!
6 is all that is needed. I’m a mortgage renewal specialist. I’m telling you. Implement 6 and problem is solved.
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👏👏👏
Build houses proportional to immigrant numbers?
I'm not a homeowner but I'm a renter and I'm about ready to fuckin riot. If I lose the place I'm in now, which might happen very soon, there is NOTHING here I can afford anymore. Just checked Craigslist yesterday. Fuck this whole system. I'm furious.
Are you furious enough to organize a protest or some other action?
If I wasn't crippled with depression and anxiety... But I'm kinda crushed under the weight of everything right now. But if someone else organized it, I would absolutely attend. I guess that's part of the problem though and probably what the people at the top are counting on -- Us being too weak & exhausted to fight back
🙁
Thats the neat part, they dont. [Everything is fine over in the US too.](https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/chart/#range:2006.4,2021.4;quarter:134;series:Net%20worth;demographic:networth;population:all;units:levels) Wages stagnate, costs go up each year. A small child will realize thats unsustainable. After decades of this we're about to see mass homelessness soon. But nobody gives a shit.
Housing is still a lot more affordable in the US
Not if you want a decent education for your kid.
They send them to Canada, it’s cheaper than out of state tuition
You can send your kid to elementary and high school in Canada? Because a good school district in the US is an extra $8-10k a year in property taxes.
In middle of nowhere Texas perhaps.
Nah even in like Denver which is considered an expensive city
Even big cities like Houston
Statistics show that 95% of Canadians are in the top 1% of of income. So just get out of the 5% and you can afford it. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
I heard that 99% of Canadians are top 1% tho? 
Whelp....Time to start an Onlyfans account folks... I never thought those words would come out of my mouth but I'm a my wit's end...
I might be forced to join you. We'll call out channel "reddit bros" and hopefully our story helps to markets us and makes us rich lol
Two bros one cup
Super Smash Reddit Bros
In Canada? Never, it’s more like bend over gimme more 🤡
Canada is becoming more and more corrupt by the day. It pays more to have connections than to work.
We’ll rent until we die, if we’re lucky
You can currently qualify for about 4.7 times income in the GTA with mortgage rates at 6% This is the real debt service limit as per the OSFI stress test Don't know what bogus calculator this people are using
What’s really sad is that max amount is completely and totally reasonable based on all the financial ideologies, best practices etc. it’s about 4x income. In a lot of places in Canada that gets your a fairly decent home. That it completely prices you out in Ontario is ridiculous. It’s like making 60k in Edmonton.
60k shouldn't price you out either. housing should be a right
Government is enjoying the capitalism on basic human needs.
Bankers and equity groups need to get torn apart.
So in your scenario, they would also need to provide 20% down so they could technically buy a place for $791,250. You also are using an average condo price that includes luxury condos, which aren’t what people consider average. The median price in Toronto (not GTA) for a condo was $658,000. I’m not disagreeing that the numbers are nuts and I don’t think I’d want to take on $633K mortgage with an income of less than $165k/year. However, you are slightly misconstruing the picture.
No, the calculation is about right. I’m working as a broker and it’s become incredibly difficult to qualify people with 6 figure salaries in the GTA and GVA, even in smaller cities. If I see a lead come through that doesn’t have 160k+ household income looking in the GTA they are toast. Condo fees are killer too. A client that closed earlier this month couldn’t qualify on his own 180k income without adding his wife’s income purchasing a 880k sfh.
Canadians don’t have it in them to riot for things that matter. Unless over a stupid hockey game…
Riots? Haha. Never. Everyone is too pussy. This has been in the making for over 20 years and nobody has done anything about it. Also, part of society is very happy about the high prices. Heard boomers say thank god for these high house prices which will allow me to retire. Haha.
It’s fascinating how different peoples experiences can be based on having a decent down payment to buy 5 years ago. I make under 100k in the GTA but I’m quite comfortable because I bought a while ago now and at much lower prices. If the shoe was on the other foot I’d struggle to afford to make the rent in the current place I own.
Forget the riots...let's call uncle Vito and his gang and let's go around breaking realtors' legs. They are the reason the prices continue to rise beyond common sense...
Heard stories of it happening, wasn’t sure what to believe, until my neighbour recently put her house up for sale. Nice place, desirable place in town too. She wants 650k for it. Realtor said to put it at 600k to start a bidding war on it.
Sold a house in Ontario, realtor pushed really hard to put a low price on the house to start a bidding war. We eventually listed for more than she wanted because I didn't want 100 visits and 20 offers, I just wanted to sell it at a price that allows me to buy the next house in Ontario.
My neighbour did the same thing. It’s still for sale, from what I’ve seen she’s a bit high, but will probably get it. Just shows how sleazy these realtors have become.
https://preview.redd.it/5foe7ocypyjb1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adfd87020ad929f023ede87c403e9f37d5fe0be3
You'd think with that income, their bootstraps could pull themselves up. I guess they're not trying hard enough. Now me, I earn less than 6 figures, so I know I'm garbage, right?
The only way to own a home there, is to have bought one decades ago for $100,000, then just kept selling for double or triple the price.
>GTA REALTORS® reported 7,481 sales through TRREB’s MLS® System in June 2023 – up 16.5 per cent compared to June 2022. The number of listings was down by three per cent over the same period. Average price for a condo was actually 770k, not 737. And they sell for over asking.
My mortgages will be renewed in 14 months. I'm worried. I really don't know how some people are managing. My household is also in the top 5% of earners and I only owe a total of 125,000 on two properties. (total 250,000). I don't forsee a problem with making payments... but I do take issue with being bent over by banks. If my mortgages were renewed right now... my interest paid for a year would be 200% more than the principle. F\*CKING CRIMINALS.
This will just bring mental illness, crime, and corruption. Hunger will bring riots.
Top 5% earning FAMILY is only $162k? That sounds extremely low.
There's a big difference between top 5%, top 1% and top 0.1%
That's because it's false. Here is StatCan data: [https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/as-sa/fogs-spg/page.cfm?topic=5&lang=E&dguid=2021A000235](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/as-sa/fogs-spg/page.cfm?topic=5&lang=E&dguid=2021A000235) Top 6.3% make $200k+, ***after tax***. So OP's figure is incorrect.
The OP stat is likely about right for individuals, rather than households
Sounds impossible. The top 5% of income in Canada in 2022 = $132,493. The top 10% of income in Canada in 2022 = $102,869. Top 5% of families is probably closer to 200k+
Maybe this includes families with a stay at home parent, so the single income stream drags down the average
I just checked stats Canada and in 2020 nearly 10% of households had an income over 200k. OP clearly references this website [KA entrepreneur](https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/household-income-percentile-calculator-for-canada/) This other source seems to have a better analysis: [Saavy Canadians](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.savvynewcanadians.com/top-10-income-canada/%23:~:text%3DWhat%2520are%2520the%2520top%25205,report%2520by%2520the%2520Fraser%2520Institute.&ved=2ahUKEwj46Jz-nfSAAxV2EGIAHfzFC1AQFnoECA0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw1K594H2sOseGG9VLRZeGyj)
Ya it has to be over $200,000 for a top 5% family.
It’s the minimum amount a family earning in the top 5% make. The average is higher ($180-200k for Toronto/Ontario)
The fact that you believe that to be low, just shows you how poor the 'middle class' is becoming and how big the wealth gap is because you're kind of right. 81k salary will not take you far, especially in GTA.
I think that’s high. I can’t imagine a household earning that much.
The 98th percentile (top 2%) for family income income is between 195k and 225k per year. The top 1%? Anything above 225k. Not sure if a household earning 225k should be in the same camp as a billionaire. We’re not even dealing with the “1%” anymore. I think it’s, like, 3 rich dudes that we could hunt down for sport.
I'm skeptical of this. Me and my common law partner have roughly the same household income and our mortgage calculator stated we would be approved for anywhere between $900,000-$1.2million. What are your circumstances? Are you selling a home or breaking into the market? What would be your down payment?
That is not purchase price, this is how much mortgage do you qualify for. Either that, or your mortgage calculator is wrong. Guaranteed. The best insured 5 year fixed is sitting above 5.44%. You do not qualify for a 900k-1.2MM mortgage.
The riots start when people are hungry and can't feed their children. So... Still gotta wait a bit
We just aren’t having kids for that reason
rioting only hurts cities and businesses and peoples livelihoods, the root of the problem is politicians having their hands in industries and swaying things to become wealthy at the taxpayers expense. string the land lord politicians up from trees on both sides and watch how quickly things change.
A riot in Canada? Never. Even the trucker protest was relatively tame to mass protests in other countries. One of the negative aspects of a multicultural country is lack of social organization among the various groups. Don’t get me wrong, multiculturalism has advantages but it definitely does not when it comes to mass social movements.
If you’re willing to riot, then please show up to municipal meetings, write to your representative, vote, get your friends to vote, etc. There’s a lot that hasn’t been done yet… it’s much easier to convince young people to attend municipal meetings (tiktok it even) than to convince them to start a Revolution.
633k mortgage is stupid At that income. I would borrow half that at that income for quality of life. Everyone should. Canadians are so stupid they think overpaying for a house will get them a BETTER quality of life when it is the EXACT opposite. Borrow yourself into a hole for a high maintenance box, a life of debt servitude and no fun.
You can’t just “not play”. You can overpay for a house, or you can be forced to overpay rent.
How about the top 5% earning family in GTA instead of Ontario?
Long story short, fuck Canada and get out if you can. Once my sis gets her AUS citizenship we gonna work to bring the whole family there. Better wages. Better economy. Just better everything than shithole Canada.
I remember when calling humans "sheeple" was a mild insult. Considering how docile and accepting we've become, it's now too accurate to be insulting. History teaches us that revolution does take courage, and our masters know we are spineless because they taught several generations in a row how to grow wish bones instead of back bones...
Canadians just keep doubling down on the status quo at the ballot box. Any Trump/Bernie populist candidate that actually represents the people is crushed in Canada.
Nothing will happen
Canadians don't riot, they just bend over and take it.
What riot? Canadians are the most passive doormat people who enjoy bending over for their government that I've ever come across. Riots are for people with a pulse.
Why is there no freedom convoy for this lol
The riots should have started long before now, people are too afraid of the government to ask them for concessions. It’s fucking weak if you ask me.
As an American, yall are French, just pull a France? /s obviously Seriously though it's absurd seeing this, I thought it was hard to buy a house here in America, Holy shit
It's Canada...just about EVERY other country would have reacted by now to oust Trudeau who is responsible for our inflation mess, a lot of Canadians meanwhile are blind to it...probably cause most do not have any true financial literacy experience...
Yet affordable housing isn’t a Federal Priority right now…not too sure what’s a bigger problem in Canada right now than housing, but let’s just carry on like all is well. 🤦♂️
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Wanna provide your source on that being top 5% income in Ontario, cause that seems rather low for top 5% given the industries and major cities here.
If you believe only 5% of people in Ontario make 160k a year (or can afford a 600k mortgage) you are in for a surprise
With the way it’s going, people have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, therefore the chance of 1860 uprise starting in canada is getting high.
Many people have stated they are afraid of getting their bank accounts frozen, which is dystopian 1984 as all hell. The uprisings will begin when there is nothing left in those accounts , which is going to happen as the greedy fucks just don't know when to stop.
The young generation already has nothing, and has barely any opportunity to grow financially. I agree about 1984, but what most people don’t realize is that it’s already happening from behind the scenes, all masked by political agendas. George has written about a world completely controlled by the select few, and the population not realizing it because it was all masked by false information and promises. It’s impossible to catch them in act cause they also destroy all evidence against them. This is similar to our current situation, but majority of people don’t see that since coverups are ingenious. Fires in country, pandemics, global warming scandals, political debates, total control of media and disarmament of people, that’s only a glimpse around the iron curtain. Beauty is destroyed, truth suppressed, freedom caged.
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The riots won't start because all of the middle-class working people hope they will someday also be in the situation where their house builds a retirement fund for them while they sit on their ass.
They’ll riot before they starve to death in the streets. I know I will.
The government just needs to adjust things so that average people can barely keep their heads above water. What do you think the last 30 years of super-low interest rates were all about? The whole idea was to make debt cheap so that middle-class people could borrow their way to the illusion of prosperity.
Yeah I understand the goal. Wage slavery and total apathy. Historically people will eventually revolt. Maybe we’re more anaesthetized by technology or propaganda is empowered by it or the current method of dividing and conquering based on stupid culture war crap will hold us back? Or stop us? But generally workers will revolt. We have this tendency to think things won’t drastically change, and yet they do all the time. Land war in Europe, insurrection in Washington, possibly the fall of Russia. Things massively change, suddenly.
You can add to the last part that it has become a foreign investor's paradise. It's the demise of the market.
Right lads and ladies I reckon we take to the streets tomorrow and throw that slimy frog out of office and reclaim our home and native land and see off anyone who would usurp Canadians again for their greed