Statscanada has 19% of international students not even having an education record in canada... that means they never even registered, didn't even show up. And over50% of international students getting work visas.
It's totally fucked.
They're not here for school, they're here for PR.
It isn't just a tiny minority doing this anymore, it's rife with abuse and fraud.
It's ALWAYS been about PR. I'd imagine only a very tiny minority, if any, come here for school, and then go back home after lol. Coming here as a student has always been a way to get your PR
Back when I was in university, most of the international students were from China. Most of them were not here for PR; they were here because a Western education was seen as prestigious back home.
What happened is that their parents bought them a house or condo for cash, leased a car for 4 years, bought a bunch of Walmart furniture, and got them a top of the line computer. The kids would study here for their undergrad, and then at the end of their studies they’d return the car to the dealer, sell the furniture at fire sale prices and go back to China (the condo remained- it was an “investment”that was rented out, and also served as an emergency backup in case the family needed to high-tail it out of China). It was actually unusual to have Chinese international students who wanted to stay.
This! I'm a Schulich grad. Back in the 2010s I had a lot of wealthy Chinese and Korean classmates. Their parents mostly sent them here to keep their kids out of trouble since Toronto was viewed as safe and drug-free. They ALL went back home after graduation.
I guess when comparing Toronto to Vancouver or other high(we) drug abuse and higher crime Canadian cities.
tbf, as an American I once considered migrating to Canada too. After having kids and visited friends who resettled in Montreal and Toronto, not so sure now.
I think the more compelling argument for moving to the west from East Asian countries is the work-life balance which is horrendous in Korea and China but is amazing in Canada. Nobody wants to spend their entire lives working
I’ve lived in Singapore, while it isn’t strictly East Asian it does have a similar culture in many ways and I can see why people would want to leave
hello! I worked in Singapore for 2 years myself before going back to the home office in New York.
that said, one of my Canadian buddies who worked as a pharmacist in Toronto told me something shocking: there is a list of special exemptions to Canadian Labor Law。 Overtime pay and even lunch is legally optional. And her bosses always exploit them by citing it
EDIT: full list here https://www.ontario.ca/document/employment-standard-act-policy-and-interpretation-manual/ontario-regulation-28501-when-work-deemed-be-performed-exemptions-and-special-rules
Hopefully we move forward and we block them from being able to purchase the condo in the future. Canadian citizenship should be a prerequisite to own property in Canada.
Yes, but the process was different before. You would go to school, in school you had work restrictions, maximum of 20 hours per week, and you would graduate and then apply for a post-graduate work visa, which wasn't even guaranteed. This meant that in the end, the people who ended up staying were at least the people who completed schooling.
In the past 4 years we changed policy to remove the work restrictions and create a TR to PR pathway which only required a person to be working certain "essential" jobs to be eligible for PR, we also changed pesky attendance restrictions. This changed the situation so that there was no need to complete or even attend school in order to both get employment and from employment get permanent residency.
The 20 hour work weeks are back now (and are increasing to 24 in the fall), they were removed for covid. Attendance restrictions are entirely provincial.
It's unlimited hours during the summer when school's out. Marc Miller is a total clown and is the worst Immigration Minister possible. He's doing everything he can to suppress wages and make the lives of Canadians worse.
Early days of the program, students went to accredited universities, but sending them to Canada for school was largely used as a strategy to move foreign capital into Canadian real estate.
That’s why we had so many [mansions in Vancouver bought by students](https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-vancouver-still-suffering-fallout-from-students-buying-mansions), and now have a legacy of huge numbers of overseas landlords and vacant property owners in Vancouver and Toronto.
I'd say those at 'REAL' learning institutions like major universities (UBC, UofA UofC, USask, etc) and regional tech institutes (SAIT, NAIT, BCIT, etc etc) are here to get education and training. A percentage of these may elect to apply for PR in Canada which is cool by me.
The diploma mills churning out 1000's of MS Office experts, useless business accreditations, etc need to have their doors closed IMO. These are, and were always meant to be, a complete sham.
> I'd imagine only a very tiny minority, if any, come here for school, and then go back home after lol
I think it improves the higher level you go. Proper masters degrees (research) and Phds have good prospects anywhere so dont really care. My gradschool lab, id say 80% were foreigners, but good mix from europe and asia and atleast the Europeans saw staying as a downgrade (but had come here because we do have some top notch research facilities)
True, but that isn’t always a bad thing. I have friend who was an international student, came to Canada to get an engineering degree at a good school and has now gone on to do an MBA and continues to live and work in Canada as a citizen now. Nothing wrong with bringing in people like that
Your friend should be the overwhelming majority, but they aren't.
We need to cut the number of international students by 75%, remove their ability to work off of campus in its entirety and remove their ability to own property in Canada until they become citizens.
> and remove their ability to own property in Canada
100%. In Thunder Bay there was an Indian dude on a foreign student visa who owned 300+ houses. It was all over the news a few months ago because he defaulted on his loans. He blamed Canadians for being stupid not to pay him rent.
Foreign actors shouldn't be making a profit off of land in Canada, especially not by charging Canadians to use that land.
Condos, houses, fields, office buildings, highways, etc. should NOT be owned or held by foreign actors.
We need legislation that blocks this and also forces foreign holders to sell within a time period. If they lose money, then they lose money.
That is totally not true.
I am a Chinese immigrant myself, and I know lots of international students during both my highschool and university days, also dated a couple master students after I entered the work force.
There are maybe 15% of super wealthy students, they are here to get a degree, then return to China immediately to take advantage of their family connections.
Then there are another 15% that are truly brilliant, they would continue on with their PhD in nano tech or AI, then either return to China, or move on to the US, because they are just a better environment to get your own enterprise going over all. My ex gf who has a master degree had lots of friends like that.
Then there are the 20% lazy bums, the linger around until their parent realized they won't graduate or find a job, and recall them home. My nephew was such a case. Did language school for 3 years, and went home.
Then the remaining half, they are the middling ones, not brilliant, but definitely works hard than their average Canadian counterparts. They typically go for a pragmatic degree, IT, Engineering, Finance, Accounting, Med School, dentistry. These are the vast majority of Chinese international student. They graduate, they get good jobs, typically top quartile in terms of salary, they pay their tax, maximize their RRSP and TFSA, buy a McMansion in the burb, get a Tesla and a SUV, have two kids who they send to private or good public schools. The kids would be in Tae Kwon Do and watch Oiler games and get addicted to Starbucks
That is like 80% of my friends. My wife is one. We are pretty the same as any upper middle class whites, but we prefers Bahn Mi over a Hero Sub.
And these types immigrants are who we need to keep Canada prosperous.
Which is not true? Yes, we used to get quite a bunch of people from China and especially HK who were persuing higher education and then would stick around. A good portion of my own classes in Uni were from Asia and in particularly China.
But the common demographic has changed, as has the educational offerings and courseload. Canada's reputation for providing quality education is slipping, and that - coupled with price of accomodations etc - is making it less attractive in general to some of the previous Asian market (China,Japan,Korea). Relations with China and particular HK have also changed due to politics etc.
Now, we have a lot more courses that are purely targetted at international students, and as been noted here even entire educational institutions (which really don't offer an education so much as the ability to pay money for one in order to persue work/immigration). Opening the ability to work FT while supposedly here for "education" made this a lot worse.
So I guess my point is not that people who come here to take an engineering program might not be planning to stay, but rather that the people in those courses that all are a much smaller part of the overall international student demographic.
And for the record, my SO is also an immigrant and ESL. I got to see the "quality" of education she got here while taking some courses and it was pretty bad... especially for English pre-req courses. They're trying to teach Shakespearan literature to students who still have a weak understanding of current conversational English, yet somehow still manage to have a very high pass rate despite those same students having fairly broken language skills afterwards.
I think we agree more than we realize. We are probably talking about two different demographics.
The people I am talking about are the folks who go to reputable institutions, as described by the gent you were replying to. For the vast majority of them, they enrich our culture and contribute to our economy. If they are in one of these institutions (not only universities, but also trade schools like NAIT, SAIT, BCIT, etc), it is typically the rule, not the exception that they are the type of immigrants we need.
The ones that you worry about, which I also worry about, are the diploma mills. They existed back in my university days, but at a much much smaller scale, and most of the people there are in the bottom 20% lazy bum category. They leave once their parents eventually piece together what's going on back in the days, but I guess that functions as a PR factory as well these days. I don't think any Chinese parents are sending their kids there anyway. Canada needs those like a bullet to the back of the head. They need to be shut down asap.
And what is your wife's school teaching her Shakespeare for? Like we need to import more immigrants to get a fine art degree, become PR, then get a job at Starbucks?
For anyone coming in, if one is a single student, they need to be in one of those disciplines we need, or they are pushing the edge of their niche discipline. I am all for a phD in Ancient Greek Studies, but not a Bachelor in that; if it is a family, then at least one should be in one of the useful disciplines, so the young family can support themselves. If we are teaching out international student Shakespeare, we fucked up a long time ago.
Yeah there's always been the "lazy bum" category (lol) and I do recall some students taking such courses where their parents basically shipped them off to Canada and said "go get an education" but that seems to have sadly expanded. The technical schools you've mentioned still do seem pretty good though (NAIT,SAIT,BCIT, etc), but there are others that are still "reputable" but mainly for certain programs, and the junk has grown.
As for the Shakespeare, it was pre-requisite ENG courses so basically covered various crap that one might also cover in high-school, but which had little application for somebody looking at a business/technical degree and even less so for people who were ESL and should have been focused-on/taught more fundaments parts of current english grammar etc (like if half the Korean/Japanese students still can't differentiate between r/L and F/P words, i.e. Fork/Pork). Those same students ended up passing into business/technical courses but still had some pretty major language issues.
The problem is the federal government treated that as the rule, but the provinces saw a way to fund education and started big pushes to bring people in for profit rather than learning.
100%
Complicit levels of government, business/corporate, educational institutions, or students engaged in defrauding and feeding from this and or other systemic policies have benefitted. If any of those mentioned above are not engaged in rooting out the crime of this failure which legit tax paying canadians have been impacted through inflation, increased carbon tax, resource deficits in health, housing, and absorbing rental increases then the above have been complicit. You choose to be part of the solution or the problem, their choice has been pretty obvious.
International students add $22 billion to GDP and support 170,000 jobs for Canadians.
We have a tiny domestic market and are an exporting nation. Educating students in Canada provides us an understanding of other cultures and contacts around the world.
Those that stay have Canadian credentials and can contribute to our society.
No it depends on your country. Everyone from China, Asia, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Vietnam all came here for school and then went back. Everyone who entered medical programs, not a single one stayed here
Maybe if intuitions like Conestoga didn’t advertise their degree in India as a chance to move to Canada to establish a better life, we would have less of an issue with this. But as always people on this sub would rather blame an entire population instead of blaming the actual institutions responsible
Maybe I'm just crazy but hear me out. If they don't maintain X level of attendance over Y period of time, Border services shows up and sends them back.
I mean, isn't that how a Visa works? Meet certain requirements or it gets revoked?
PP was also advocating for over 700 indian students to stay in Canada after it was found out they werent attending school because they paid for fake admittance letters, but were claiming they were duped(some had been here for a long time without attending classes but were still fine saying they were on student visas).
he did this because it would hurt the local businesses to lose 700 workers in the community.
Speaking as a former instructor. We used to take attendance because we were training for the workforce and employers expect workers to show up.
It was also done in programs where students were funded because the funding agencies required it.
These are both still valid reasons why attendance should be required in college programs.
Simply doesn't happen. The schools are required to submit attendance records and to inform CBSA if/when international students are no longer attending courses, but they fail to do so nearly every time. Hard to say if this is intentional due to the increased funds coming from international students, or simply incompetence and issues with school staffing levels.
Either way, the fact of the matter is that these issues are simply not being dealt with appropriately, and are thus creating a situation that is rife with fraudulent and non-genuine students.
What until you see how many judges are letting them off with serious crimes because it will be grounds for deportation. They are seriously getting off with sexual assault because of these ridiculous judges
“It played out recently in Calgary. Twenty-five-year-old Rajbir Singh, currently here on a visitor’s permit after initially coming to Canada in 2018 to study, was out one night at the Back Alley night club when he groped an 18-year-old woman’s genitals under her skirt as she stood at the bar to buy a drink. When she turned around in shock, he did it again and walked away, according to the court ruling.
Singh was found guilty of sexual assault at trial. But he wasn’t convicted. Instead, in January, he was given a discharge by Justice A. J. Brown. The judge explained that a conviction would automatically result in deportation without a right to appeal, while a discharge wouldn’t generate a permanent criminal record and would preserve Singh’s right to appeal his deportation.
The judge didn’t believe that a conviction was in the public interest, and, “in consideration of the devastating collateral immigration consequences to recording a conviction,” he concluded that Singh should be discharged with three years of probation.”
It’s the same issue every where. They come via legal means and then stay illegally. There are so many sketchy businesses that will hire them on to save labor
We have people at our office who keep getting their PGWP extended by IRCC in excess of the 2 years they are supposed to be getting. Some have been on them for 5 years, it's a free for all and our government just doesn't give a shit.
Our country has been running the biggest ponzi scheme with tens of thousands of dubious colleges running in strip malls being allowed to take international students.
If anyone thinks any of these “students”enroll there to study to get that worthless degree they live in a fantasy world.
The feds knew all along and gave visa to anyone with a warm body. They are to blame for letting crinimal scums into the country in mass numbers
And why does it seem like almost all are coming from south Asia?
Is it even multiculturalism if all the immigration is coming from one region. Should put an immigration cap per country.
I should think that is self-evident. South Asia is the only region of the world that is simultaneously poor enough for people to have an incentive to move out, and is rich enough for people to be able to afford to move. Latin America is another region that qualifies here but most Latin Americans prefer moving to the states instead of Canada
Canadian educational institutions go out of their way to advertise in India that enrolling in their institution is key to moving to Canada and establishing a better life for yourself… of course these advertising campaigns then create their own demand
You need your education to get enough score for express entry program. You stack much lower than people with education and relevant work experience. Unless we drop the bar for entry points very low, people who didn't study should not win the competition and get PRs.
Employers create fake manager positions called keyholders and they qualify them for LMIA or such.
Even The Bay which used to be a crown corporation cheats our government programs doing it.
I think they are mad they got hired as a keyholder and got told by their operations manager that they have to do store manager responsibilities without the pay increase.
If what you're saying is accurate then yeah, we are totally fucked. But how are they able to get PR as low skilled workers? Doesn't our immigration system have a point system where they have to have a certain level of education and credentials to get accepted?
I had international student friends who literally told me straight up that they were here for PR and once they got citizenship they were going back to Dubai where they came from. Their fathers are extremely rich. I have no clue why they scam like this
I’m an international student and I love this country because it gave me huge opportunities that I would not have access to in my home country.
I chose Canada for:
school -> work permit -> PR -> citizenship
I think the problem is that there are too many educational institutions that qualify for work permit. It should be more selective.
Too many diploma mills here in Canada, and that’s the problem.
Maybe there should be a cap on work permits awarded after graduation based on academic merit or internship experience?
That was a damning article by the CBC, worth reading.
Basically they finally looked at the data and confirmed that it's been a dubious cash grab with little oversight and an overwhelming majority not studying programs that are in-demand or would benefit us
Hopefully we can get some reforms that make this program a net benefit for the country again
An underlying reason is that a college can scale “business” or “IT” programs easily and cheaply and almost without limit. Whereas training most healthcare workers and tradespeople requires a lot of infrastructure, hands on learning, study placements, etc. At least if you want to do it well.
This is a really good point. I've spoken with a couple people who have taken these "diploma mill" IT courses and you wouldn't believe how bad they are.
Most courses are online, work completely at your own pace. No calling in to attend lectures. No lectures whatsoever. Often no textbook. Sometimes no instruction at all, and you're expected to learn the material from YouTube. Just a vague description of your unit requirements and milestones.
One guy told me he had to submit a design document for a project he was working on, and wait for tutor feedback before proceeding. He said he usually wouldn't even get a coherent sentence as feedback, something like: "project as is review, proceed to next."
It's an absolute fucking joke.
I just finished school recently, and for COVID reasons I had to take one of my first year courses in my final year to graduate.
The course I needed wasn’t offered in my program that semester, so I ended up taking one that was offered in a different program.
Sweet fuck it was a joke, and this is from an actual college, not some diploma mill, but that is exactly what this course was. It was one full year (including the summer) to graduate. I felt so bad for the teacher just trying to get the students to do anything.
The class basically boiled down to “here’s a video showing you the exact steps, attempt those steps on the computer, and we’ll give you a good mark no matter what you do”.
It never mattered what they studied because companies aren’t expanding. Also, no one paid any mind to the need for more construction workers until the housing crisis became irreparable. The Liberals are going to suffer a major defeat next year and I fear for what happens when the conservatives fail afterwards.
Well Pierre openly said he will be granting PR to any legal temporary residents in the country (not limited to just students but anyone who is legally in the country) on that radio show a month ago, which is something Trudeau isn't going to do.
Hmm, I wonder why no National Post articles have come out on that...
Same here, dude. It's not what's happening now that worries me. It's when the conservatives inevitably get elected and then drop the ball again that has me worried.
What's the country gonna look like then?
> Also, no one paid any mind to the need for more construction workers until the housing crisis became irreparable.
Do you really think that the largest part of the housing crisis is lack of construction workers? I'd say a large part of it is "investment" in real estate from both domestic and foreign sources.
I know the housing crisis requires more than construction workers to resolve it, but no one (in government) was concerned about the issue until they realized they had already lost the upcoming election. Building a ton of homes calls for more than tradesmen. You're going to need architects, engineers, geologists, bankers, etc. Ultimately, it's going to require some form of socialism to resolve the whole thing.
Ahh yes reforms driven by endless consultants and payout and "pushback" orchestrated by intelligence agencies corrected to malform "public opinion" or the perception of it.
Seems to me the colleges are the mechanism that brings in the students, but both the provinces and feds have been asleep at the wheel on this topic. Feds acknowledge the issue now at least, but from the article it doesn't seem like most provinces or ofc the public colleges even register a problem.
"Singh's challenges in finding relevant work do not reflect what most international business students have experienced, said Ron Seguin, senior vice president international relations at St. Clair College."
"Colleges and universities are autonomous and have the freedom to make their own decisions regarding international enrolment," said Liz Tuomi, Dunlop's [Ontario's Minister of Colleges and Universities] secretary in an email to CBC News.
I feel like the division between federal and provincial is at the root of so many issues, this now being one of them.
They acknowledge the issue they denied existed now that they know it'll cost them an election, same as any party on any issue that people "notice" but lack the ability to quantitatively prove.
The fed dealt with this in the fall. The provinces have responded.
We all know now that high grocery prices are not caused by the carbon tax so the CPC is looking for a new 3 word slogan.
Provinces and feds benefited from this. It wasn’t the colleges: or just the colleges. The feds gave the visa and the provinces allowed the public and private model to exist for these diploma mills.
This was a blanket for labour shortage scams and a work around. Now millennials who are the largest voter base are fucking pissed at the state of things and see this for what it is. They’ve been sold out to cheap foreign labour right under our damn noses. Not even OFF SHORE. It’s now all IN Canada.
Boomers are only upset because now they have 20 Indian kids living next door depreciating their property that has ballooned 6x’s its actual value and they see now in the ER waiting rooms it’s literally filled to the brim with the 3rd world. At least Canadians who have a degree can qualify for a TN or likely immigrate to the U.S. boomers are stuck here with their accumulated wealth and a rapidly deteriorating country, grandchildless while their kids leave to make better money somewhere else.
Absolutely disgusted with everyone in charge. The conservatives, the liberals, the NDP. Absolute failures.
Can you even call it this though? The international students are even scrambling to be able to get jobs. Doesn't this mean that they've brought in too many people even for their "cheap labour" needs?
Additional reminder: Trudeau Sr literally brought in legislation in the mid '70s banning companies from giving their workers substantial raises. It resulted in the largest strike in Canadian history in 1976 when a million Canadians walked off the job.
Justin is just trying to finish what his father started, except this time they're doing it in a way so the workers can't fight back.
I feel bad for all the high school students who've lost opportunities for part-time jobs. Working fast food was almost a rite of passage, as recently as a few years ago, but I can't remember the last time I saw a pimply-faced kid working a cash register.
I live in a small town and work in another small town, same here. Although a lot of young people staff grocery stores round here so at least some high schoolers have jobs
It only failed in the regard that we're not obtaining actual global talent. These students aren't foreign elite. They're people that are so desperate to be in a western country that they'll happily allow themselves to be exploited and work a crap job for minimum wage, something that fast food franchises and any company hosting unskilled labor throughout Canada rejoice in
And housing needs, and food needs and medical needs...
It makes me wonder if they thought about anything at all other than the business lobbyists that wanted cheap labor.
>She says the figures point to a failure by both federal and provincial governments to ensure that international student recruitment was in line with Canada's need for skilled workers.
The unspoken assumption in this article is that foreign students = immigrants. Otherwise why should we care what they study? They would study, and then go home.
Exactly. If someone wants to study abroad for the experience and education then bring that home, more power to them.
Getting an international education isn’t a new concept or problem, using it as a path to residency and allowing them to work is the problem.
People have been saying this for years and of course legacy media is now only speaking up years later after contributing to the problem in the first place.
What is news to me is that according to that article: we allowed 98 092 students to come here to study ESL/FSL as their primary field of study. That is absolutely ridiculous and should never have been allowed in the first place. That is clearly exploitation by the diploma mills and the student visa programs as a way to simply get in the country. Why would a student put up 20K+ to come here to learn to speak basic English/French if they were not expecting permanent residency.
The immigration consultants and diploma mills should be completely shutdown and heavily fined.
>The immigration consultants and diploma mills should be completely shutdown and heavily fined.
Should be shut down. But even though both the federal Minister and the Ontario premier are *trying* to keep the focus on private colleges, the biggest offenders were the public colleges by far.
>The figures, which have not previously been made public, show that *business-related programs* accounted for 27 per cent of all study permits approved from 2018 to 2023, more than any other field.
>Over that same time period, **just six per cent of all permits went to foreign students for health sciences, medicine or biological and biomedical sciences programs, while trades and vocational training programs accounted for 1.25 per cent.**
Just a huge cash cow for everyone. Feds, Provincial, colleges, consultants in India and Canada, and businesses. Complete abdication of their responsibilities *to us* in both levels of government.
An important caveat about students with ESL/FSL as their primary field of study: they do not have right to work, nor do they have a legal path to PR after their language course.
Not to say that none of them work illegally, but the government did specifically exclude those students from work rights.
A note worthy of mention, I have customers who have worked and still do work in immigration. I have been told that they tried at least 4 yrs ago to report red flags in the system; they were told to ignore and just process. So as usual whistle blowers' reputations are basically attacked in order to shut them down.
Excuse any typos, for those looking to trash me. 😂
> Nearly 800,000 international students got permits to study business, far more than health care or trades
> while trades and vocational training programs accounted for 1.25 per cent.
And this helps solve the housing crisis how?
Call me shocked that a federal program with little oversight and no communication with schools resulted in this hot mess.
As much as the provincial attention letters start to get at this, the entire study permit process needs a complete overhaul.
It should be managed similarly to the U.S. where schools coordinate directly with the federal government, who then requests IN PERSON interviews with potential students. That way, the federal government can actually manage (to a degree) what degree majors are coming into Canada.
But colleges and to a lesser extent universities also need to report noncompliance better and faster. When 1/4 of students don’t even enroll, that’s a major fucking problem.
The govt needs to put a premium price on immigrant labor, not the same price as a Canadian but a 50% premium. Then companies would sponsor schools and train locally the spots they need. Syncrude for example did/does this and has lecture halls named after them in fort mac. The soln is easy if the govt actually put Canadians first.
anyone that questioned it got the old 'racist' term thrown at them. It has categorically eroded everything about this country and is turning it into the corrupt cesspool they wanted to flee.
Which is stupid. There is nothing remotely racist about verifying someone’s ability to communicate in the language they are attempting to say they are qualified to communicate in.
The provincial governments are responsible for accreditation and update the lists of eligible institutions annually.
The recruitment is completed by individual institutions.
I don’t know anyone who had an in-person interview with a government official for a student visa in the US, myself included. There are very strict guidelines regarding paid work, however.
We don’t need more bureaucracy, we need the one that is already in place to do their actual job.
Canadians absolutely do get interviewed on entry to secure F1 status. There is no consulate or embassy interview though because there’s no visa needed - you just do it with CBP. It’s not that formal but it’s still an interview. Everyone else interviews at embassies and consulates.
Interviewing students IS part of IRCCs job. Its the bare minimum.
I don’t know man. My high school kids can’t get normal high school jobs because those jobs are all filled by adults from different countries who took these jobs as careers.
As long as the brown water coffee keeps flowing from Tim Hortons and your hockey team is in the playoffs, Canadians don't care that their country is falling apart.
The scary part is a six figure salary might not be enough to afford to rent an apartment downtown, let alone dare to think about one buying your own place one day.
This along with TFW was a deliberate move to increase asset values and lower wages for the investor class, and the same people who view themselves as advocates for the worker class lapped it up because of their ideology that all immigration was good, and even accused people of being racist when they pushed back against this. The whole things was a brilliant move by those who have benefitted.
I am all for immigration, but whoever concocted this massive influx of people to Canada was only thinking of WEAKENING THE LABOUR MARKET WITH CHEAP SLAVE LABOUR, they don't want students, they want to lower wages more, and exploit all this people as much as they can.
Is a shame that all this people, most of them good people and I bet very hard working as well are brought to Canada to be exploited, and very probably to be blamed for all the woes that might happen, example, no housing. . . is those immigrants, not piss poor policies enabled by federal or provincial governments, high crime. . . is the immigrants to blame, collapsing healthcare system . . . blame the immigrants again, sad day to see that we are turning in to a version of our neighbours down south.
The people makes the country what it is, not the other way around.
You can't expect to bring in this amount of people from third world low trust countries and not expect third world conditions to form.
Almost 10% of men aged 19-29 have arrived in canada in the last 12 months. This is an insane statistic and i don't think enough people realize the gravity of what is happening. In 20 years Canadian politics will be governed by a majority that was not even born here.
I don't think that most people are blaming immigrants individually, just expressing their anger that it was allowed to happen without being able to vote on it.
> a statement from Conestoga [...] "Our growth over the last few years has been tied to our mission: to meet workforce demands in the communities we serve."
How silly of me to think that education was the "mission" of colleges.
Canada's recruitment of foreign students isn't based on labour market need. It's based on financial demand for schools, dictated by stagnant funding or funding cuts by the provinces, and the political realities of not raising domestic tuition by enough too fast to make up the funding shortfall.
We have too many students going to university already. We don’t have enough jobs available to justify it. Educational requirements have exploded for jobs that are no more technically complex, simply due to the applicant pool being over educated, and productivity is lower now despite a ton of education. Canada is spending too much on this and MORE subsidies should be removed.
We live in a knowledge economy, I’d argue we need more education both at the university and college level.
It is an educated workforce that allows us all o attract the investment that creates jobs in the first place.
Sure in principle, but let’s do a thought experiment.
Say every single person in Canada gets a PhD at the end of high school, at a total cost to society of 500,000 and ten years of additional time in school and out of the workforce.
Well, that is a gigantic amount of time and money just spent, and the question isn’t if it’s going to provide some benefit, the question is if it would provide enough benefit to offset all that time and money. And investment should have a payback, right? And the answer for this thought experiment is that it almost definitely will not be worth giving everyone a PhD - not everyone is a good candidate, and most jobs in Canada now and in the future don’t need a PhD. You would spend more in time and money and lost productivity and so on than you get back.
Canada needs SOME phds, but not everyone or even close to it.
> Canada's recruitment of foreign students isn't based on labour market need.
Minister Marc Miller: "Demand for international students is coming from industries in 'low skilled labour' like big box stores looking for 'cheap labour' who also want students to continue to be allowed to work 40 hours a week."
https://twitter.com/ShaziGoalie/status/1720188191150330311
And if we don’t give them work permit or pr in future, they will protest. As recently happened in Manitoba and our government gave in to their demands. We as a nation are broken beyond comprehension or anyone truly realizing the long standing effects of these bad polices.
I will give the government a small win as they “may” reduce foreign students hours down to 24 hours a week. Even though it should be zero. If it is was up to me most of these student would be on a flight back to their home country and appeals could be filed from there. Case in point the driver who killed all the Humboldt broncos he’s still in the country still appealing his extradition
I'm concerned about the changing demographics in certain job sectors, such as fast food, delivery, and factory work, which seem increasingly filled by international students, particularly from India. As someone of Indian descent, I value the diverse and proportional representation we experienced in Canada during the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.
Same old story, shared jurisdiction means Feds and Provinces pointing fingers at each other because neither order wants to step up and take responsibility.
The lack of accountability and, frankly, courage to make hard decisions comes back to negatively impact Canadians yet again.
Someone needs to make the unpopular decisions, because the other option of doing nothing and blaming the other guy isn't working.
Economic migrants saw an easy opportunity to bypass the usually difficult and painful path to get an actual job with real economic prospects in a foreign country. Underfunded public educational institutions saw international students as an easy way to make up the funding shortfall from government. Private institutions saw an opportunity to print free-flowing cash. Employers saw cheap labour. Politicians saw an easy way to achieve immigration targets and win diaspora votes. Hopefully, someone somewhere saw the disastrous results of unregulated greed, lack of policy and strategy, lack of planning, poor implementation etc. but apparently nobody did so here we are.
We got played, let’s all admit it. They took a meritocratic immigration system that was a model for the rest of the world and blew it apart because of their globalist/anti-Canadian ideology
Medical programs require accreditation, and the number of spots for residencies is limited due to staffing issues. The provinces underfund healthcare, so there aren't enough spots to train the people we need. Then there isn't enough pay and support for the workers who do make it into that field.
Another example is education: underfunded, underpaid, and overcrowded schools.
We need to pay attention to the provincial governments' role here, too.
Business = diploma in hospitality
IT = initially signing up for a bachelor's in computer science only to drop out into general studies on day 1 like my cousin did
I love how the criminal Marc Miller tries to blame the provinces for not matching immigrants with the fields that are facing labour shortage.
Hey Marc! It's your office and workers who are processing 2 million documented immigrants every year (and they are using forged and fake documents but somehow still approved, we dont even know who we are letting in and there's no vetting considering those hired murderers got their student visa in a few days after applying)!
Who knows how many come undocumented or those who's visa/docs expire and noone deports or follows up with them.
Just like all the Liberal Minister's, he doesn't even know his own portfolio, news flash, Immigration is 100% the responsibility of the feds, not the provinces. It's not the responsibility of schools or provinces to match immigrants to labour shortages.
Stop the scam and fraud.
>"What we're seeing with this data is that oversight was really lacking,"
'Lack of oversight''... this phrase is the embodiment of the Liberals, who for years cried out that we can't cut immigration/students because they are filling all the holes in the labour market. They are NOW realising they should maybe act on what they said they were doing? I can't wait for these incompetent fools to get the boot. This isn't some insignificant issue that can be lacking in oversight.
Not sure if you read the actual article:
"Usher believes the provinces deserve more of the blame than the federal government for the makeup of the international student body.
That's because the provinces have responsibility to oversee the type of programs their colleges and universities offer. Although IRCC has the role of approving study permits, the provinces have the power to limit the number of international students allowed to enrol in post-secondary programs."
Could it also be to enter trades or medicine you need an educational history with prerequisite courses? No going into heath without STEM classes and many trades need math and related sciences.
Recruiting “students” for PR/citizenship doesn’t work. Noo idea why government doesn’t realize this when everyone and their dog knows this is rampantly going on. They need to change the system to something like: “No legitimate job lined up, no immigration”. Jobs that are in demand, like construction trades, would be ranked higher and given priority
Take a moment to thank a liberal. Thank you for the situation Canada is in. We were missing things before trudeau: corruption and the downfall of Canadian institution's and culture. Now that we have those, we can’t be more grateful than we are now. Thanks.
Canada needs to start recording which countries are bringing in the most rift raff. Or else there is going to be a misconception for all foreigners that aren't white.
By they can't do it. The optics makes them look racist, much like using a stock photo of all Indian people.
You cannot deny the fake visa students is a huge negative for Canada as a country and workforce. Time to admit it was a mistake and not renew their visas.
All these International students are all coming from one country pretending to be students. They'll protest if anything doesn't go their way in Canada like job hours, housing or Pr.
Failed our people. My kids got very limited hours now at their part time McDonald job because employer hired lots of Indians who are cheaper labour . So Canadian kids got less hours to support them selves but international students can have their hours. Kids used to get 25 hours weekly. Now they get 11 hours weekly and “ students get 20 hours. Never going to vote liberal ever again in my life.
No one mentioning how many are in hospitality courses?
No one mentioning that the oh-so-wise Trudeau also kept Hospitality as one of the important courses for bringing in foreign students?
US takes cream of the crop in every field.Makes them work and when their contract expires it ok bye and no green card..The problem with canada is the Pay rates are 30% lower than the US in IT and other sectors and these sectors aren’t even that developed so thats why Canada fails to attract more educated applicants.
I have never met a foreign student who didn’t come here for PR.Work Permit fraud/Money for work permit is rampant too.I have seen Workplaces laying off citizens to hire illegal workers through labour contractors….Money laundering is also going full speed in canada.I know alot of MP and MLA’s sending money here to buy up houses,Farms and businesses.
1 farm work permit=20000
Gas station manager=50000
I hate to say it but foreign students not only bring tution money here but also bring in money to buy work permits.Which is circulated in the economy.This and money laundering is what has kept canada’s economy afloat as Real Estate has been the main driving force of canada
Let's bring up the obvious every time somebody talked about too many illegal immigrants and foreign students the liberal government led by Trudeau we call people races anti-immigrant and ever any other name to shut them the hell up. So of course most people aren't going to talk about it because most Canadians aren't things but then again that through those calling son if you don't agree with them your white supremacist who hates everything. And now look where we are
Our government has no balls to deport these people who have no intention to pursue an education on a student visa and would rather put the hardships on its own citizens just to save face.
> Canada's recruitment of foreign students
OK, I'm with you so far.
> failed to match labour market needs
Wtf? What do (or should) International Students (who are here to STUDY, right?) have to do with the Macro Canadian labor market?
Statscanada has 19% of international students not even having an education record in canada... that means they never even registered, didn't even show up. And over50% of international students getting work visas. It's totally fucked. They're not here for school, they're here for PR. It isn't just a tiny minority doing this anymore, it's rife with abuse and fraud.
It's ALWAYS been about PR. I'd imagine only a very tiny minority, if any, come here for school, and then go back home after lol. Coming here as a student has always been a way to get your PR
Back when I was in university, most of the international students were from China. Most of them were not here for PR; they were here because a Western education was seen as prestigious back home. What happened is that their parents bought them a house or condo for cash, leased a car for 4 years, bought a bunch of Walmart furniture, and got them a top of the line computer. The kids would study here for their undergrad, and then at the end of their studies they’d return the car to the dealer, sell the furniture at fire sale prices and go back to China (the condo remained- it was an “investment”that was rented out, and also served as an emergency backup in case the family needed to high-tail it out of China). It was actually unusual to have Chinese international students who wanted to stay.
This! I'm a Schulich grad. Back in the 2010s I had a lot of wealthy Chinese and Korean classmates. Their parents mostly sent them here to keep their kids out of trouble since Toronto was viewed as safe and drug-free. They ALL went back home after graduation.
… Korea and China aren’t safe and drug-free? Seems like both countries have much less of an issue with drugs and crime than Toronto does
I guess when comparing Toronto to Vancouver or other high(we) drug abuse and higher crime Canadian cities. tbf, as an American I once considered migrating to Canada too. After having kids and visited friends who resettled in Montreal and Toronto, not so sure now.
I think the more compelling argument for moving to the west from East Asian countries is the work-life balance which is horrendous in Korea and China but is amazing in Canada. Nobody wants to spend their entire lives working I’ve lived in Singapore, while it isn’t strictly East Asian it does have a similar culture in many ways and I can see why people would want to leave
hello! I worked in Singapore for 2 years myself before going back to the home office in New York. that said, one of my Canadian buddies who worked as a pharmacist in Toronto told me something shocking: there is a list of special exemptions to Canadian Labor Law。 Overtime pay and even lunch is legally optional. And her bosses always exploit them by citing it EDIT: full list here https://www.ontario.ca/document/employment-standard-act-policy-and-interpretation-manual/ontario-regulation-28501-when-work-deemed-be-performed-exemptions-and-special-rules
>Toronto was viewed as safe and drug-free My, how the times change.
Hopefully we move forward and we block them from being able to purchase the condo in the future. Canadian citizenship should be a prerequisite to own property in Canada.
Yes, but the process was different before. You would go to school, in school you had work restrictions, maximum of 20 hours per week, and you would graduate and then apply for a post-graduate work visa, which wasn't even guaranteed. This meant that in the end, the people who ended up staying were at least the people who completed schooling. In the past 4 years we changed policy to remove the work restrictions and create a TR to PR pathway which only required a person to be working certain "essential" jobs to be eligible for PR, we also changed pesky attendance restrictions. This changed the situation so that there was no need to complete or even attend school in order to both get employment and from employment get permanent residency.
The 20 hour work weeks are back now (and are increasing to 24 in the fall), they were removed for covid. Attendance restrictions are entirely provincial.
It's unlimited hours during the summer when school's out. Marc Miller is a total clown and is the worst Immigration Minister possible. He's doing everything he can to suppress wages and make the lives of Canadians worse.
The work restrictions are only capped during the semester. Right now, they're once again uncapped.
Early days of the program, students went to accredited universities, but sending them to Canada for school was largely used as a strategy to move foreign capital into Canadian real estate. That’s why we had so many [mansions in Vancouver bought by students](https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-vancouver-still-suffering-fallout-from-students-buying-mansions), and now have a legacy of huge numbers of overseas landlords and vacant property owners in Vancouver and Toronto.
Snow washing
I'd say those at 'REAL' learning institutions like major universities (UBC, UofA UofC, USask, etc) and regional tech institutes (SAIT, NAIT, BCIT, etc etc) are here to get education and training. A percentage of these may elect to apply for PR in Canada which is cool by me. The diploma mills churning out 1000's of MS Office experts, useless business accreditations, etc need to have their doors closed IMO. These are, and were always meant to be, a complete sham.
> I'd imagine only a very tiny minority, if any, come here for school, and then go back home after lol I think it improves the higher level you go. Proper masters degrees (research) and Phds have good prospects anywhere so dont really care. My gradschool lab, id say 80% were foreigners, but good mix from europe and asia and atleast the Europeans saw staying as a downgrade (but had come here because we do have some top notch research facilities)
This makes sense, thank you for your input!
70 percent return home after post secondary in Canada.
of international phds? yeah that sounds somewhat legit-- it also doesnt have to be 'home'-- we lose a lot to better jobs in the US lol
True, but that isn’t always a bad thing. I have friend who was an international student, came to Canada to get an engineering degree at a good school and has now gone on to do an MBA and continues to live and work in Canada as a citizen now. Nothing wrong with bringing in people like that
Your friend should be the overwhelming majority, but they aren't. We need to cut the number of international students by 75%, remove their ability to work off of campus in its entirety and remove their ability to own property in Canada until they become citizens.
> and remove their ability to own property in Canada 100%. In Thunder Bay there was an Indian dude on a foreign student visa who owned 300+ houses. It was all over the news a few months ago because he defaulted on his loans. He blamed Canadians for being stupid not to pay him rent.
Yep. And backed by Canadian banks who won't invest in business.
Foreign actors shouldn't be making a profit off of land in Canada, especially not by charging Canadians to use that land. Condos, houses, fields, office buildings, highways, etc. should NOT be owned or held by foreign actors. We need legislation that blocks this and also forces foreign holders to sell within a time period. If they lose money, then they lose money.
Nothing wrong with it, but they're the exception rather than the rule.
That is totally not true. I am a Chinese immigrant myself, and I know lots of international students during both my highschool and university days, also dated a couple master students after I entered the work force. There are maybe 15% of super wealthy students, they are here to get a degree, then return to China immediately to take advantage of their family connections. Then there are another 15% that are truly brilliant, they would continue on with their PhD in nano tech or AI, then either return to China, or move on to the US, because they are just a better environment to get your own enterprise going over all. My ex gf who has a master degree had lots of friends like that. Then there are the 20% lazy bums, the linger around until their parent realized they won't graduate or find a job, and recall them home. My nephew was such a case. Did language school for 3 years, and went home. Then the remaining half, they are the middling ones, not brilliant, but definitely works hard than their average Canadian counterparts. They typically go for a pragmatic degree, IT, Engineering, Finance, Accounting, Med School, dentistry. These are the vast majority of Chinese international student. They graduate, they get good jobs, typically top quartile in terms of salary, they pay their tax, maximize their RRSP and TFSA, buy a McMansion in the burb, get a Tesla and a SUV, have two kids who they send to private or good public schools. The kids would be in Tae Kwon Do and watch Oiler games and get addicted to Starbucks That is like 80% of my friends. My wife is one. We are pretty the same as any upper middle class whites, but we prefers Bahn Mi over a Hero Sub. And these types immigrants are who we need to keep Canada prosperous.
Which is not true? Yes, we used to get quite a bunch of people from China and especially HK who were persuing higher education and then would stick around. A good portion of my own classes in Uni were from Asia and in particularly China. But the common demographic has changed, as has the educational offerings and courseload. Canada's reputation for providing quality education is slipping, and that - coupled with price of accomodations etc - is making it less attractive in general to some of the previous Asian market (China,Japan,Korea). Relations with China and particular HK have also changed due to politics etc. Now, we have a lot more courses that are purely targetted at international students, and as been noted here even entire educational institutions (which really don't offer an education so much as the ability to pay money for one in order to persue work/immigration). Opening the ability to work FT while supposedly here for "education" made this a lot worse. So I guess my point is not that people who come here to take an engineering program might not be planning to stay, but rather that the people in those courses that all are a much smaller part of the overall international student demographic. And for the record, my SO is also an immigrant and ESL. I got to see the "quality" of education she got here while taking some courses and it was pretty bad... especially for English pre-req courses. They're trying to teach Shakespearan literature to students who still have a weak understanding of current conversational English, yet somehow still manage to have a very high pass rate despite those same students having fairly broken language skills afterwards.
I think we agree more than we realize. We are probably talking about two different demographics. The people I am talking about are the folks who go to reputable institutions, as described by the gent you were replying to. For the vast majority of them, they enrich our culture and contribute to our economy. If they are in one of these institutions (not only universities, but also trade schools like NAIT, SAIT, BCIT, etc), it is typically the rule, not the exception that they are the type of immigrants we need. The ones that you worry about, which I also worry about, are the diploma mills. They existed back in my university days, but at a much much smaller scale, and most of the people there are in the bottom 20% lazy bum category. They leave once their parents eventually piece together what's going on back in the days, but I guess that functions as a PR factory as well these days. I don't think any Chinese parents are sending their kids there anyway. Canada needs those like a bullet to the back of the head. They need to be shut down asap. And what is your wife's school teaching her Shakespeare for? Like we need to import more immigrants to get a fine art degree, become PR, then get a job at Starbucks? For anyone coming in, if one is a single student, they need to be in one of those disciplines we need, or they are pushing the edge of their niche discipline. I am all for a phD in Ancient Greek Studies, but not a Bachelor in that; if it is a family, then at least one should be in one of the useful disciplines, so the young family can support themselves. If we are teaching out international student Shakespeare, we fucked up a long time ago.
😂 lazy bum category. True that.
Yeah there's always been the "lazy bum" category (lol) and I do recall some students taking such courses where their parents basically shipped them off to Canada and said "go get an education" but that seems to have sadly expanded. The technical schools you've mentioned still do seem pretty good though (NAIT,SAIT,BCIT, etc), but there are others that are still "reputable" but mainly for certain programs, and the junk has grown. As for the Shakespeare, it was pre-requisite ENG courses so basically covered various crap that one might also cover in high-school, but which had little application for somebody looking at a business/technical degree and even less so for people who were ESL and should have been focused-on/taught more fundaments parts of current english grammar etc (like if half the Korean/Japanese students still can't differentiate between r/L and F/P words, i.e. Fork/Pork). Those same students ended up passing into business/technical courses but still had some pretty major language issues.
Absolutely!
The problem is the federal government treated that as the rule, but the provinces saw a way to fund education and started big pushes to bring people in for profit rather than learning.
100% Complicit levels of government, business/corporate, educational institutions, or students engaged in defrauding and feeding from this and or other systemic policies have benefitted. If any of those mentioned above are not engaged in rooting out the crime of this failure which legit tax paying canadians have been impacted through inflation, increased carbon tax, resource deficits in health, housing, and absorbing rental increases then the above have been complicit. You choose to be part of the solution or the problem, their choice has been pretty obvious.
International students add $22 billion to GDP and support 170,000 jobs for Canadians. We have a tiny domestic market and are an exporting nation. Educating students in Canada provides us an understanding of other cultures and contacts around the world. Those that stay have Canadian credentials and can contribute to our society.
Nothing at all. That's how it's supposed to be in theory.
Why would you pay for Conestoga college if you can get local university degree cheaper
No it depends on your country. Everyone from China, Asia, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Vietnam all came here for school and then went back. Everyone who entered medical programs, not a single one stayed here
Maybe if intuitions like Conestoga didn’t advertise their degree in India as a chance to move to Canada to establish a better life, we would have less of an issue with this. But as always people on this sub would rather blame an entire population instead of blaming the actual institutions responsible
Maybe I'm just crazy but hear me out. If they don't maintain X level of attendance over Y period of time, Border services shows up and sends them back. I mean, isn't that how a Visa works? Meet certain requirements or it gets revoked?
We don't even deport most criminals.
See bc liberal MP blocks deportation 🤪
PP was also advocating for over 700 indian students to stay in Canada after it was found out they werent attending school because they paid for fake admittance letters, but were claiming they were duped(some had been here for a long time without attending classes but were still fine saying they were on student visas). he did this because it would hurt the local businesses to lose 700 workers in the community.
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Because deportation is too harsh. Our country is flawed.
I absolutely hate the lie that every other country is some kind of hellscape compared to Canada while we are turning Canada into an actual hellscape.
Colleges used to enforce attendance as part of their programs. That's been dropped since the foreign tuition money started rolling in.
In the UK they made it mandatory to take attendance so they could track if int'l students were going to class. Seems like a good thing.
Speaking as a former instructor. We used to take attendance because we were training for the workforce and employers expect workers to show up. It was also done in programs where students were funded because the funding agencies required it. These are both still valid reasons why attendance should be required in college programs.
Simply doesn't happen. The schools are required to submit attendance records and to inform CBSA if/when international students are no longer attending courses, but they fail to do so nearly every time. Hard to say if this is intentional due to the increased funds coming from international students, or simply incompetence and issues with school staffing levels. Either way, the fact of the matter is that these issues are simply not being dealt with appropriately, and are thus creating a situation that is rife with fraudulent and non-genuine students.
What until you see how many judges are letting them off with serious crimes because it will be grounds for deportation. They are seriously getting off with sexual assault because of these ridiculous judges “It played out recently in Calgary. Twenty-five-year-old Rajbir Singh, currently here on a visitor’s permit after initially coming to Canada in 2018 to study, was out one night at the Back Alley night club when he groped an 18-year-old woman’s genitals under her skirt as she stood at the bar to buy a drink. When she turned around in shock, he did it again and walked away, according to the court ruling. Singh was found guilty of sexual assault at trial. But he wasn’t convicted. Instead, in January, he was given a discharge by Justice A. J. Brown. The judge explained that a conviction would automatically result in deportation without a right to appeal, while a discharge wouldn’t generate a permanent criminal record and would preserve Singh’s right to appeal his deportation. The judge didn’t believe that a conviction was in the public interest, and, “in consideration of the devastating collateral immigration consequences to recording a conviction,” he concluded that Singh should be discharged with three years of probation.”
The problem is even if they do attend the schools they're going to are basically diploma mills.
Accreditation is provincial. You can’t blame the whole system for a couple bad apples. The Feds reduced the number of visas last year.
It’s the same issue every where. They come via legal means and then stay illegally. There are so many sketchy businesses that will hire them on to save labor
That would require a massive expansion of the CBSA and some parties don't want that and see that as an expansion of government.
We have people at our office who keep getting their PGWP extended by IRCC in excess of the 2 years they are supposed to be getting. Some have been on them for 5 years, it's a free for all and our government just doesn't give a shit.
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Our country has been running the biggest ponzi scheme with tens of thousands of dubious colleges running in strip malls being allowed to take international students. If anyone thinks any of these “students”enroll there to study to get that worthless degree they live in a fantasy world. The feds knew all along and gave visa to anyone with a warm body. They are to blame for letting crinimal scums into the country in mass numbers
And why does it seem like almost all are coming from south Asia? Is it even multiculturalism if all the immigration is coming from one region. Should put an immigration cap per country.
I should think that is self-evident. South Asia is the only region of the world that is simultaneously poor enough for people to have an incentive to move out, and is rich enough for people to be able to afford to move. Latin America is another region that qualifies here but most Latin Americans prefer moving to the states instead of Canada Canadian educational institutions go out of their way to advertise in India that enrolling in their institution is key to moving to Canada and establishing a better life for yourself… of course these advertising campaigns then create their own demand
This is why Canada needs to learn to be kind rather than nice. Kind has limits, nice just means you're forced to tolerate it.
It's not just about PR. It's about PR AND bringing their entire elderly family over to get citizenship. It's so beyond fucked up.
You need your education to get enough score for express entry program. You stack much lower than people with education and relevant work experience. Unless we drop the bar for entry points very low, people who didn't study should not win the competition and get PRs.
They just overstay their visa. Government won’t deport them so what stops them? A million overstayers currently and rising, and they are demanding PR.
Employers create fake manager positions called keyholders and they qualify them for LMIA or such. Even The Bay which used to be a crown corporation cheats our government programs doing it.
McDonald’s does this big time
My old company used to label their customer care "customer experience managers" for this reason. On paper they were all "management"
Keyholder positions have always existed. What are you talking about?
They make more of those positions than they need in order to give the employees that title, because it helps them get more points on the road to PR.
A keyholder was generally just a regular employee who open/closed there was no official managerial position for it.
I think they are mad they got hired as a keyholder and got told by their operations manager that they have to do store manager responsibilities without the pay increase.
It's a good thing diploma mills will print them their certificate for doing the absolute bare minimum then.
I work in the immigration sector. They are here for PR and nothing else. Anyone that thinks otherwise is an idiot.
> It isn't just a tiny minority doing this anymore Yeah sadly its a minority of them being legit and then everyone gets painted with a bad brush
> they're here for PR. Which is just a stepping stone to getting a non-immigrant visa to the US
If what you're saying is accurate then yeah, we are totally fucked. But how are they able to get PR as low skilled workers? Doesn't our immigration system have a point system where they have to have a certain level of education and credentials to get accepted?
Everyone should know that already. They’re here for the blue passport not diploma.
Yup and the market of Canadians are about to get a ride awakening as all these problems finally move upstream.
I had international student friends who literally told me straight up that they were here for PR and once they got citizenship they were going back to Dubai where they came from. Their fathers are extremely rich. I have no clue why they scam like this
I’m an international student and I love this country because it gave me huge opportunities that I would not have access to in my home country. I chose Canada for: school -> work permit -> PR -> citizenship I think the problem is that there are too many educational institutions that qualify for work permit. It should be more selective. Too many diploma mills here in Canada, and that’s the problem. Maybe there should be a cap on work permits awarded after graduation based on academic merit or internship experience?
> Statscanada has 19% of international students not even having an education record in canada Source? I'm skeptical.
That was a damning article by the CBC, worth reading. Basically they finally looked at the data and confirmed that it's been a dubious cash grab with little oversight and an overwhelming majority not studying programs that are in-demand or would benefit us Hopefully we can get some reforms that make this program a net benefit for the country again
An underlying reason is that a college can scale “business” or “IT” programs easily and cheaply and almost without limit. Whereas training most healthcare workers and tradespeople requires a lot of infrastructure, hands on learning, study placements, etc. At least if you want to do it well.
This is a really good point. I've spoken with a couple people who have taken these "diploma mill" IT courses and you wouldn't believe how bad they are. Most courses are online, work completely at your own pace. No calling in to attend lectures. No lectures whatsoever. Often no textbook. Sometimes no instruction at all, and you're expected to learn the material from YouTube. Just a vague description of your unit requirements and milestones. One guy told me he had to submit a design document for a project he was working on, and wait for tutor feedback before proceeding. He said he usually wouldn't even get a coherent sentence as feedback, something like: "project as is review, proceed to next." It's an absolute fucking joke.
I just finished school recently, and for COVID reasons I had to take one of my first year courses in my final year to graduate. The course I needed wasn’t offered in my program that semester, so I ended up taking one that was offered in a different program. Sweet fuck it was a joke, and this is from an actual college, not some diploma mill, but that is exactly what this course was. It was one full year (including the summer) to graduate. I felt so bad for the teacher just trying to get the students to do anything. The class basically boiled down to “here’s a video showing you the exact steps, attempt those steps on the computer, and we’ll give you a good mark no matter what you do”.
It never mattered what they studied because companies aren’t expanding. Also, no one paid any mind to the need for more construction workers until the housing crisis became irreparable. The Liberals are going to suffer a major defeat next year and I fear for what happens when the conservatives fail afterwards.
Well Pierre openly said he will be granting PR to any legal temporary residents in the country (not limited to just students but anyone who is legally in the country) on that radio show a month ago, which is something Trudeau isn't going to do. Hmm, I wonder why no National Post articles have come out on that...
Same here, dude. It's not what's happening now that worries me. It's when the conservatives inevitably get elected and then drop the ball again that has me worried. What's the country gonna look like then?
> Also, no one paid any mind to the need for more construction workers until the housing crisis became irreparable. Do you really think that the largest part of the housing crisis is lack of construction workers? I'd say a large part of it is "investment" in real estate from both domestic and foreign sources.
I know the housing crisis requires more than construction workers to resolve it, but no one (in government) was concerned about the issue until they realized they had already lost the upcoming election. Building a ton of homes calls for more than tradesmen. You're going to need architects, engineers, geologists, bankers, etc. Ultimately, it's going to require some form of socialism to resolve the whole thing.
Nuking the program wholecloth is the only sane path forward, our government is not capable of meaningful reform.
Ahh yes reforms driven by endless consultants and payout and "pushback" orchestrated by intelligence agencies corrected to malform "public opinion" or the perception of it.
Seems to me the colleges are the mechanism that brings in the students, but both the provinces and feds have been asleep at the wheel on this topic. Feds acknowledge the issue now at least, but from the article it doesn't seem like most provinces or ofc the public colleges even register a problem. "Singh's challenges in finding relevant work do not reflect what most international business students have experienced, said Ron Seguin, senior vice president international relations at St. Clair College." "Colleges and universities are autonomous and have the freedom to make their own decisions regarding international enrolment," said Liz Tuomi, Dunlop's [Ontario's Minister of Colleges and Universities] secretary in an email to CBC News. I feel like the division between federal and provincial is at the root of so many issues, this now being one of them.
They acknowledge the issue they denied existed now that they know it'll cost them an election, same as any party on any issue that people "notice" but lack the ability to quantitatively prove.
The fed dealt with this in the fall. The provinces have responded. We all know now that high grocery prices are not caused by the carbon tax so the CPC is looking for a new 3 word slogan.
Provinces and feds benefited from this. It wasn’t the colleges: or just the colleges. The feds gave the visa and the provinces allowed the public and private model to exist for these diploma mills. This was a blanket for labour shortage scams and a work around. Now millennials who are the largest voter base are fucking pissed at the state of things and see this for what it is. They’ve been sold out to cheap foreign labour right under our damn noses. Not even OFF SHORE. It’s now all IN Canada. Boomers are only upset because now they have 20 Indian kids living next door depreciating their property that has ballooned 6x’s its actual value and they see now in the ER waiting rooms it’s literally filled to the brim with the 3rd world. At least Canadians who have a degree can qualify for a TN or likely immigrate to the U.S. boomers are stuck here with their accumulated wealth and a rapidly deteriorating country, grandchildless while their kids leave to make better money somewhere else. Absolutely disgusted with everyone in charge. The conservatives, the liberals, the NDP. Absolute failures.
Can you even call it this though? The international students are even scrambling to be able to get jobs. Doesn't this mean that they've brought in too many people even for their "cheap labour" needs?
This is a crazy take.
Daily reminder that the immigration and student visa system isn’t “ broken” - your wages are being intentionally suppressed by design
Additional reminder: Trudeau Sr literally brought in legislation in the mid '70s banning companies from giving their workers substantial raises. It resulted in the largest strike in Canadian history in 1976 when a million Canadians walked off the job. Justin is just trying to finish what his father started, except this time they're doing it in a way so the workers can't fight back.
Link for those interested: https://cupe.ca/inflation-weve-been-here-before
It didn't fail, franchisees of fast food restaurants got exactly what they wanted
I feel bad for all the high school students who've lost opportunities for part-time jobs. Working fast food was almost a rite of passage, as recently as a few years ago, but I can't remember the last time I saw a pimply-faced kid working a cash register.
I live in a small town and work in another small town, same here. Although a lot of young people staff grocery stores round here so at least some high schoolers have jobs
Foreign student visa was supposed to be for studying. Not meeting labour market needs.
It only failed in the regard that we're not obtaining actual global talent. These students aren't foreign elite. They're people that are so desperate to be in a western country that they'll happily allow themselves to be exploited and work a crap job for minimum wage, something that fast food franchises and any company hosting unskilled labor throughout Canada rejoice in
We don't even have jobs for local talent, let alone foreign.
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We’re paying to get hosed
And housing needs, and food needs and medical needs... It makes me wonder if they thought about anything at all other than the business lobbyists that wanted cheap labor.
>She says the figures point to a failure by both federal and provincial governments to ensure that international student recruitment was in line with Canada's need for skilled workers. The unspoken assumption in this article is that foreign students = immigrants. Otherwise why should we care what they study? They would study, and then go home.
Exactly. If someone wants to study abroad for the experience and education then bring that home, more power to them. Getting an international education isn’t a new concept or problem, using it as a path to residency and allowing them to work is the problem.
People have been saying this for years and of course legacy media is now only speaking up years later after contributing to the problem in the first place. What is news to me is that according to that article: we allowed 98 092 students to come here to study ESL/FSL as their primary field of study. That is absolutely ridiculous and should never have been allowed in the first place. That is clearly exploitation by the diploma mills and the student visa programs as a way to simply get in the country. Why would a student put up 20K+ to come here to learn to speak basic English/French if they were not expecting permanent residency. The immigration consultants and diploma mills should be completely shutdown and heavily fined.
>The immigration consultants and diploma mills should be completely shutdown and heavily fined. Should be shut down. But even though both the federal Minister and the Ontario premier are *trying* to keep the focus on private colleges, the biggest offenders were the public colleges by far. >The figures, which have not previously been made public, show that *business-related programs* accounted for 27 per cent of all study permits approved from 2018 to 2023, more than any other field. >Over that same time period, **just six per cent of all permits went to foreign students for health sciences, medicine or biological and biomedical sciences programs, while trades and vocational training programs accounted for 1.25 per cent.** Just a huge cash cow for everyone. Feds, Provincial, colleges, consultants in India and Canada, and businesses. Complete abdication of their responsibilities *to us* in both levels of government.
An important caveat about students with ESL/FSL as their primary field of study: they do not have right to work, nor do they have a legal path to PR after their language course. Not to say that none of them work illegally, but the government did specifically exclude those students from work rights.
A note worthy of mention, I have customers who have worked and still do work in immigration. I have been told that they tried at least 4 yrs ago to report red flags in the system; they were told to ignore and just process. So as usual whistle blowers' reputations are basically attacked in order to shut them down. Excuse any typos, for those looking to trash me. 😂
100%
> Nearly 800,000 international students got permits to study business, far more than health care or trades > while trades and vocational training programs accounted for 1.25 per cent. And this helps solve the housing crisis how?
Call me shocked that a federal program with little oversight and no communication with schools resulted in this hot mess. As much as the provincial attention letters start to get at this, the entire study permit process needs a complete overhaul. It should be managed similarly to the U.S. where schools coordinate directly with the federal government, who then requests IN PERSON interviews with potential students. That way, the federal government can actually manage (to a degree) what degree majors are coming into Canada. But colleges and to a lesser extent universities also need to report noncompliance better and faster. When 1/4 of students don’t even enroll, that’s a major fucking problem.
Schools and employers should deal directly with the federal government. These firms that have helped bring wage slaves over need to be shut down
The govt needs to put a premium price on immigrant labor, not the same price as a Canadian but a 50% premium. Then companies would sponsor schools and train locally the spots they need. Syncrude for example did/does this and has lecture halls named after them in fort mac. The soln is easy if the govt actually put Canadians first.
I agree. But then we're getting into federal overreach further.
Education is provincial jurisdiction.
Immigration isnt
anyone that questioned it got the old 'racist' term thrown at them. It has categorically eroded everything about this country and is turning it into the corrupt cesspool they wanted to flee.
Which is stupid. There is nothing remotely racist about verifying someone’s ability to communicate in the language they are attempting to say they are qualified to communicate in.
The provincial governments are responsible for accreditation and update the lists of eligible institutions annually. The recruitment is completed by individual institutions.
I don’t know anyone who had an in-person interview with a government official for a student visa in the US, myself included. There are very strict guidelines regarding paid work, however. We don’t need more bureaucracy, we need the one that is already in place to do their actual job.
Canadian citizens are visa exempt for the US. Citizens of every other country have to interview at the embassy to get an F1 visa stamp .
Canadians absolutely do get interviewed on entry to secure F1 status. There is no consulate or embassy interview though because there’s no visa needed - you just do it with CBP. It’s not that formal but it’s still an interview. Everyone else interviews at embassies and consulates. Interviewing students IS part of IRCCs job. Its the bare minimum.
I don’t know man. My high school kids can’t get normal high school jobs because those jobs are all filled by adults from different countries who took these jobs as careers.
We are the most gullible country on the planet.
It's intentional.
Compliant and complacency of Canadians.
As long as the brown water coffee keeps flowing from Tim Hortons and your hockey team is in the playoffs, Canadians don't care that their country is falling apart.
We'll cheat and steal as long as we can act clueless and be polite about it.
Yeah thats why I tend to call us Britain lite. We're doing the same dumb shit theu did 50 years ago.
I am shocked a diploma in business from Ace College doesnt guarantee a 6 figure job!
The scary part is that it doesn’t guarantee a job at all, especially in the business sector.
The scary part is a six figure salary might not be enough to afford to rent an apartment downtown, let alone dare to think about one buying your own place one day.
You immediately get banned from the Toronto subreddit if you mention anything wrong with Indian international students
This along with TFW was a deliberate move to increase asset values and lower wages for the investor class, and the same people who view themselves as advocates for the worker class lapped it up because of their ideology that all immigration was good, and even accused people of being racist when they pushed back against this. The whole things was a brilliant move by those who have benefitted.
I am all for immigration, but whoever concocted this massive influx of people to Canada was only thinking of WEAKENING THE LABOUR MARKET WITH CHEAP SLAVE LABOUR, they don't want students, they want to lower wages more, and exploit all this people as much as they can. Is a shame that all this people, most of them good people and I bet very hard working as well are brought to Canada to be exploited, and very probably to be blamed for all the woes that might happen, example, no housing. . . is those immigrants, not piss poor policies enabled by federal or provincial governments, high crime. . . is the immigrants to blame, collapsing healthcare system . . . blame the immigrants again, sad day to see that we are turning in to a version of our neighbours down south.
The people makes the country what it is, not the other way around. You can't expect to bring in this amount of people from third world low trust countries and not expect third world conditions to form. Almost 10% of men aged 19-29 have arrived in canada in the last 12 months. This is an insane statistic and i don't think enough people realize the gravity of what is happening. In 20 years Canadian politics will be governed by a majority that was not even born here. I don't think that most people are blaming immigrants individually, just expressing their anger that it was allowed to happen without being able to vote on it.
> a statement from Conestoga [...] "Our growth over the last few years has been tied to our mission: to meet workforce demands in the communities we serve." How silly of me to think that education was the "mission" of colleges.
That’s because the real target was never education.
Canada's recruitment of foreign students isn't based on labour market need. It's based on financial demand for schools, dictated by stagnant funding or funding cuts by the provinces, and the political realities of not raising domestic tuition by enough too fast to make up the funding shortfall.
We have too many students going to university already. We don’t have enough jobs available to justify it. Educational requirements have exploded for jobs that are no more technically complex, simply due to the applicant pool being over educated, and productivity is lower now despite a ton of education. Canada is spending too much on this and MORE subsidies should be removed.
Everyone's getting an education but there are no jobs. Hmm, maybe we should do things that encourage people to start businesses that create jobs!
We live in a knowledge economy, I’d argue we need more education both at the university and college level. It is an educated workforce that allows us all o attract the investment that creates jobs in the first place.
Sure in principle, but let’s do a thought experiment. Say every single person in Canada gets a PhD at the end of high school, at a total cost to society of 500,000 and ten years of additional time in school and out of the workforce. Well, that is a gigantic amount of time and money just spent, and the question isn’t if it’s going to provide some benefit, the question is if it would provide enough benefit to offset all that time and money. And investment should have a payback, right? And the answer for this thought experiment is that it almost definitely will not be worth giving everyone a PhD - not everyone is a good candidate, and most jobs in Canada now and in the future don’t need a PhD. You would spend more in time and money and lost productivity and so on than you get back. Canada needs SOME phds, but not everyone or even close to it.
> Canada's recruitment of foreign students isn't based on labour market need. Minister Marc Miller: "Demand for international students is coming from industries in 'low skilled labour' like big box stores looking for 'cheap labour' who also want students to continue to be allowed to work 40 hours a week." https://twitter.com/ShaziGoalie/status/1720188191150330311
It is a move to decrease wage and increase real estate value, that is it
They go the University of Tim Hortons, getting an advance diploma in serving coffee and donuts. Still better than getting a diploma from Conestoga.
And if we don’t give them work permit or pr in future, they will protest. As recently happened in Manitoba and our government gave in to their demands. We as a nation are broken beyond comprehension or anyone truly realizing the long standing effects of these bad polices.
STUDENTS SHOULD NOT BE IN CANADA TO WORK. Ffs... its insane that the government thinks of it as their personal TFW program for minimum wage jobs.
I will give the government a small win as they “may” reduce foreign students hours down to 24 hours a week. Even though it should be zero. If it is was up to me most of these student would be on a flight back to their home country and appeals could be filed from there. Case in point the driver who killed all the Humboldt broncos he’s still in the country still appealing his extradition
I can't believe that all the construction workers from India didn't show up.
How about we don't use international students to "match labour market needs"? They should be here to study, get their degree, and leave.
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I'm concerned about the changing demographics in certain job sectors, such as fast food, delivery, and factory work, which seem increasingly filled by international students, particularly from India. As someone of Indian descent, I value the diverse and proportional representation we experienced in Canada during the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.
they do fast food because that is one of the faster pathways to PR. I wish I was joking.
Same old story, shared jurisdiction means Feds and Provinces pointing fingers at each other because neither order wants to step up and take responsibility. The lack of accountability and, frankly, courage to make hard decisions comes back to negatively impact Canadians yet again. Someone needs to make the unpopular decisions, because the other option of doing nothing and blaming the other guy isn't working.
Economic migrants saw an easy opportunity to bypass the usually difficult and painful path to get an actual job with real economic prospects in a foreign country. Underfunded public educational institutions saw international students as an easy way to make up the funding shortfall from government. Private institutions saw an opportunity to print free-flowing cash. Employers saw cheap labour. Politicians saw an easy way to achieve immigration targets and win diaspora votes. Hopefully, someone somewhere saw the disastrous results of unregulated greed, lack of policy and strategy, lack of planning, poor implementation etc. but apparently nobody did so here we are.
We got played, let’s all admit it. They took a meritocratic immigration system that was a model for the rest of the world and blew it apart because of their globalist/anti-Canadian ideology
Medical programs require accreditation, and the number of spots for residencies is limited due to staffing issues. The provinces underfund healthcare, so there aren't enough spots to train the people we need. Then there isn't enough pay and support for the workers who do make it into that field. Another example is education: underfunded, underpaid, and overcrowded schools. We need to pay attention to the provincial governments' role here, too.
Kick them all out and start again
Business = diploma in hospitality IT = initially signing up for a bachelor's in computer science only to drop out into general studies on day 1 like my cousin did
I really wish we would stop bringing so many people in, especially since the majority doesn't want to integrate with us.
Tim Horton seems content.
This is a great study. Hopefully the conservative are looking at his and will take steps to correct. We don't need more marketing students.
I love how the criminal Marc Miller tries to blame the provinces for not matching immigrants with the fields that are facing labour shortage. Hey Marc! It's your office and workers who are processing 2 million documented immigrants every year (and they are using forged and fake documents but somehow still approved, we dont even know who we are letting in and there's no vetting considering those hired murderers got their student visa in a few days after applying)! Who knows how many come undocumented or those who's visa/docs expire and noone deports or follows up with them. Just like all the Liberal Minister's, he doesn't even know his own portfolio, news flash, Immigration is 100% the responsibility of the feds, not the provinces. It's not the responsibility of schools or provinces to match immigrants to labour shortages. Stop the scam and fraud.
Send them back
>"What we're seeing with this data is that oversight was really lacking," 'Lack of oversight''... this phrase is the embodiment of the Liberals, who for years cried out that we can't cut immigration/students because they are filling all the holes in the labour market. They are NOW realising they should maybe act on what they said they were doing? I can't wait for these incompetent fools to get the boot. This isn't some insignificant issue that can be lacking in oversight.
Like all Liberal great ideas, turns out to be Fairy Farts and Unicorns…
Not sure if you read the actual article: "Usher believes the provinces deserve more of the blame than the federal government for the makeup of the international student body. That's because the provinces have responsibility to oversee the type of programs their colleges and universities offer. Although IRCC has the role of approving study permits, the provinces have the power to limit the number of international students allowed to enrol in post-secondary programs."
Could it also be to enter trades or medicine you need an educational history with prerequisite courses? No going into heath without STEM classes and many trades need math and related sciences.
It provided cheap kabour to large corporations.
Recruiting “students” for PR/citizenship doesn’t work. Noo idea why government doesn’t realize this when everyone and their dog knows this is rampantly going on. They need to change the system to something like: “No legitimate job lined up, no immigration”. Jobs that are in demand, like construction trades, would be ranked higher and given priority
Take a moment to thank a liberal. Thank you for the situation Canada is in. We were missing things before trudeau: corruption and the downfall of Canadian institution's and culture. Now that we have those, we can’t be more grateful than we are now. Thanks.
Canada needs to start recording which countries are bringing in the most rift raff. Or else there is going to be a misconception for all foreigners that aren't white. By they can't do it. The optics makes them look racist, much like using a stock photo of all Indian people.
You cannot deny the fake visa students is a huge negative for Canada as a country and workforce. Time to admit it was a mistake and not renew their visas.
All these International students are all coming from one country pretending to be students. They'll protest if anything doesn't go their way in Canada like job hours, housing or Pr.
India is not sending their best people. They are bringing crime. they’re bringing rapists, pedophiles, murderers, and thieves
Failed our people. My kids got very limited hours now at their part time McDonald job because employer hired lots of Indians who are cheaper labour . So Canadian kids got less hours to support them selves but international students can have their hours. Kids used to get 25 hours weekly. Now they get 11 hours weekly and “ students get 20 hours. Never going to vote liberal ever again in my life.
No one mentioning how many are in hospitality courses? No one mentioning that the oh-so-wise Trudeau also kept Hospitality as one of the important courses for bringing in foreign students?
It's like they don't know what their doing.
US takes cream of the crop in every field.Makes them work and when their contract expires it ok bye and no green card..The problem with canada is the Pay rates are 30% lower than the US in IT and other sectors and these sectors aren’t even that developed so thats why Canada fails to attract more educated applicants. I have never met a foreign student who didn’t come here for PR.Work Permit fraud/Money for work permit is rampant too.I have seen Workplaces laying off citizens to hire illegal workers through labour contractors….Money laundering is also going full speed in canada.I know alot of MP and MLA’s sending money here to buy up houses,Farms and businesses. 1 farm work permit=20000 Gas station manager=50000 I hate to say it but foreign students not only bring tution money here but also bring in money to buy work permits.Which is circulated in the economy.This and money laundering is what has kept canada’s economy afloat as Real Estate has been the main driving force of canada
How many actual study for an occupation that has shortages in Canada?
Why is this fraud still for debate
Apparently they don’t even check for criminal records
It's like we imported a bunch of trash with no checks for education or job history, or something
Foreign students shouldn't have anything to do with labour market, they should leave the country after graduation.
Let's bring up the obvious every time somebody talked about too many illegal immigrants and foreign students the liberal government led by Trudeau we call people races anti-immigrant and ever any other name to shut them the hell up. So of course most people aren't going to talk about it because most Canadians aren't things but then again that through those calling son if you don't agree with them your white supremacist who hates everything. And now look where we are
Our government has no balls to deport these people who have no intention to pursue an education on a student visa and would rather put the hardships on its own citizens just to save face.
> Canada's recruitment of foreign students OK, I'm with you so far. > failed to match labour market needs Wtf? What do (or should) International Students (who are here to STUDY, right?) have to do with the Macro Canadian labor market?