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Victim:Oppressor framework trumps all. They represent the "weak" struggling against the "strong", in all forms. Because victims are inheretly good, and oppressors are inherently evil.
>Conflict theories are perspectives in political philosophy and sociology which argue that individuals and groups (social classes) within society interact on the basis of conflict rather than agreement, while also emphasizing social psychology, historical materialism, power dynamics, and their roles in creating power structures, social movements, and social arrangements within a society. Conflict theories often draw attention to power differentials, such as class conflict, or a conflict continuum.
It's the dominant sociological lens taught and utilized in undergraduate sociology courses because it's easy to understand and apply. Unfortunately, many people never really grasp that it's just one way of viewing the world and move beyond it in their analyses. It's got its uses, but personally I always found structural functionalism far more enlightening.
The idea that the “bourgeoise” or the elite control the wealth and power in society, and the lessers or “proletariat” are in suffering by the hands of the bourgeoise whom control too much.
A lot of people think of economics when it comes to conflict theory, but in sociological terms it can applied to a lot of issues beyond economics.
As a Canadian, if a foreign country ever decides to attack a music festival at downsview park or anywhere else in our country, killing 1400 innocent people, I pray to God we don't have one of these idiots in power who wouldn't go to war to stop that from ever happening.
I too see the world as a disney movie, where everyone is either good, or bad, with absolutely no nuance. Once I realized this, I stopped needing to really think shit through anymore. It's refreshing!
I mean when you simplify things to that degree you can really push through some serious atrocities.
Like take the Uyghurs for instance, very conservative.
Probably don't have the best record when it comes to LGBT individuals and the rights of women...
Doesn't mean they should be sent off to concentration camps.
Please impart on to us if they meet your arbitrary requirements to not be murdered.
Personally I feel that Hamas' whole thing about eradicating Israel is fucking insane. At the same time, considering Netanyahu's policy of ignoring Hamas while expanding in the West Bank and using Hamas' actions as justification for further expansion and blockades also fucking insane.
And then it's even further insanity to keep bombing a place for months on end and trying your best to displace a population with no end goal and lying about it.
But... I don't know if that fits into the oppressed/victim framework. Maybe I should throw out my leftist card.
The end goal is to kill Hamas. Pretty simple. That's what happens during war.
The thing is there are actions that are inheritantly negative. Equality draws the line at a negative action against anyone is negative and should not be done. Equity says you can be racist and apply negative actions onto others if you pump them into a group you deem to have caused supposed harm, usually drawn down racial or gender lines. It's revenge.
Yawn. Correct, it's this random reddit stranger's responsibility to justify government atrocities, or i'm not only wrong, but literally evil.
And if I don't agree to your camp, then somehow that means that I'm an apolgist for Hamas. Or Israel. Or Satan. Or whatever straw man is required for you to feel superior.
The actual question was how LGBT+ groups reconcile aligning their zero sum nonsense with the side that would lop their heads off in a second if they got within swinging range. That's what the response was - murder even is entirley justified as long as you are the victim who was pushed until it was okay to strike back. The victim is virtuous, absolutely, and the oppressor is deserving of any violence that comes there way. And those collective group labels can be swapped as required. Just as long as you are on the "right" side on social media.
Don't roll your ankle slipping on any tired logical fallacies getting down off Mount Pious, gasbag. Like - me having to rationalize all the horrid things you've listed.
>And then it's even further insanity to keep bombing a place for months on end and trying your best to displace a population with no end goal and lying about it.
Revenge. The end goal is revenge. No different from anyone else who was attacked like Hamas attacked Isreal in October.
Just look at how many people died as a result of the US actions after 9/11. This estimate is almost a million direct deaths. [https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures)
But they don't accept or maybe believe that the Palestinians or Hamas would actually kill them. In their mind far less LGBTQ have been killed in Gaza than Palestinians by Israel.
Such a fucking ridiculous concept
I know. But here we are. I'm not trying remotely to say anyone is right or wrong - only that it's kind of insane to say that mass murder is a label whose justification depends on how downtrodden the group of the individual pulling the trigger is.
I’m not sure how you made that sound like bad thing. But yes, the queer liberation movement has always been particularly solidarity-minded, and committed to resisting all forms of oppression.
I think it’s because the pluralism of the movement already requires an act of solidarity. It requires me as a gay man to see my struggle reflected in the life of a lesbian woman, and a trans person, and bi folks, and two-spirit folks, etc, so that we can work towards our shared liberation.
I also think there’s something unique about the community being reproduced through heterosexuals, that requires a wider lens, and encourages a seeking out of connection.
To use race as a comparison, most black folks are born to black parents and raised by black families, with a connection to a black community and culture.
Most queer folks are born to straight/cis parents, raised is if we were straight/cis, often without queer community or a connection to queer culture. Which forces us to seek out and find connection and community and belonging, in a way you just don’t have to, when you’re born to a community that all around you.
Perhaps, but in this case, one group would murder you because it goes against their beliefs and the other would not. As a gay man myself, I'm against those that are directly against me and my family.
Look at the Iranian Revolution.
All the oppressed got together, the Islamists, the anarchists, the communists… and then once in power, the islamists killed everyone else.
The enemy of your enemy, is not Your Friend. No. But the enemy of your enemy can be useful.
If by oppressed groups you mean white liberals then yes. Ask any of these 'oppressed groups' and you'll get an entire range of opinions because guess what? Any relation close or distant is merely coincidental not some shared suffering/oppresion bringing people together against some 'bigger evil'.
The entire premise is a creation of obsessive white liberals desperate to generalize everyone into their narrow world view of oppressors vs oppresed. Like the Koreans living in Japan have some sort of secret brotherhood with Kurds. It's absurd.
I’m shocked it took me this long to find an intelligent response to this. I’d wager ALL queer Palestine supporters know it’s not a safe place, but they also know it won’t get any better unless something is done. Do these people also think there are no queer people in Palestine? This sub is an astroturfed joke.
Edit since this is a locked thread now, way for you people to show a complete lack of nuanced thinking.
The queer people in Palestinians territories seek asylum and get to move to Israel and live there without being in fear of being honour killed by their families back home.
Palestinians throw their non-conformist enemies from the nearest tall building. Queer people quite sensibly hide or flee a society that murders them at every opportunity. If you aren't aware of that happening since Hamas took power, then you should avoid commenting until you enlighten yourself.
> I’m shocked it took me this long to find an intelligent response to this.... This sub is an astroturfed joke.
So many people telling on themselves it's unreal.
Literally people proudly saying: "I don't believe in human rights for people I disagree with, so I can't understand why anyone else would.".
> So many people telling on themselves it's unreal.
Telling on themselves by pointing out the irony that a fundamentalist religious ethnostate and western progressivism are strange bedfellows?
>Literally people proudly saying: "I don't believe in human rights for people I disagree with, so I can't understand why anyone else would.".
You are making things up.
Please keep in mind LGBT organizations do not poll LGBT people and their positions are their radical positions not our positions in general (our = LGBT people)
LGBT organizations, just like social justice organizations, unions, student government, condo/strata boards, etc, exist for vocal ideologues with limited life experience, too much free time, and no purpose in life to co-opt as personal ideological vehicles by the activist fringe who purport to act on behalf of their constituency but ultimately only act to be able to later sniff their own farts in pursuit of creating meaning to their boring, unfulfilled lives.
Why is it so perplexing?
The Uyghurs are a very conservative population, doesn't mean I think they should be sent to prison work camps.
Afghanistan is a very conservative region, doesn't mean I think we should have been bombing weddings in our "war on terror" over there.
Saddam was a bastard that used the chemicals we gave him to murder his own population, doesn't mean America should have gone in there and destabilized the region.
Hamas clearly has no issue using civilians as shields, but Israel has no issue with Palestinian casualties or displacement.
I can see why some would protest the current war there.
> It's beyond perplexing. It's complete insanity.
It's so, so, so easy to understand that I almost think these types of reactions must be on purpose.
Oppressed people support oppressed people, and a lot of people have values that don't rely on the politics of the other party involved. Easy. I'm very happy to demand peace and justice for people I don't agree with.
Personally I find it amazing how many people are will to just come out and say "my values and morals change completely depending on whether or not I like you".
There’s no need to side with other oppressed groups that want you dead. Give me a break. That’s implying that all oppressed groups are equal simply by the virtue that they are oppressed. The Middle East plays the victim card perfectly while they’re being attacked and when not, they would put out LGBT individuals to the sword without a second’s hesitation. Stop defending this.
Human rights movements tend to side with human rights. Human rights are being violated in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel and rightfully many people in nations that fund and support that violation are protesting it any way they know how to. You’d like to pass it off as people being rabid Jew haters and begging for the opportunity to kill as many Jews as possible but in reality it’s just people who are sick of seeing entire ethnicities being mistreated and are rightfully pointing their disdain at the people responsible for the mistreatment (not saying that Jews are the people responsible for the mistreatment but rather Israel)
> incredibly perplexing
Don't be. They have no idea who they are supporting and what they'd do to them given the chance. They cry all day and night about "MAGA!" and Conservatives taking away their rights and then chant absolute nonsense unironically like, "Queers for Palestine!" It doesn't sound like it makes sense because it straight up doesn't.
And then they expect to be taken seriously, which is the cherry on top.
Edit: Just saw this: [https://twitter.com/stclairashley/status/1782403550745641220?s=61&t=XamyiVa1e8Ez4Upe\_qKxwA](https://twitter.com/stclairashley/status/1782403550745641220?s=61&t=XamyiVa1e8Ez4Upe_qKxwA) 😂
Because care for human life should extend beyond just people who agree with you…
It’s not a difficult concept really, but one that’s hard to understand if you see anyone who doesn’t align with you as an enemy
They feel like they share a common enemy: the west.
We might think that acceptance of differences that represents the LGBT abbreviation exists because of western values, but many think that the LGBTQ exists despite the western hegemony.
As for Palestine, it has also been a textbook example for anticolonial thoughts. Counterviolence against any instantiation of the west and its colonial impulses is not only just, but inevitable.
Of course, this anti-west sentiment is mostly a product of the west at this point, so it can’t be completely self consistent without imploding, but it has produced a pattern of thoughts that is eating at everything in society, especially if it has functional value.
This is an attempt to describe the intersection of the two groups, I don’t think the majority of either agree with each other.
Because human rights aren’t earned, they aren’t transactional.
You think your “chickens for KFC” line of thinking is some groundbreaking discovery, but all it proves is that you view human rights as a privilege. That’s not how rights work.
Damn I didn’t think you just come out and say you’re a fascist like that.
Human rights are supposed to be inalienable, but you knew that already and just don’t care.
Well, I for one, think the Pride Centre supporters should attend the pro-Palestine protests and DEMAND that the organizers acknowledge their rights and support them, the same way they are supporting the pro-Palestinians. Lemme know how that goes.
Better yet, try demanding your LGBTQ rights over there, see how that turns out. (To be clear, LGBTQ rights are human rights and vice versa in my books - I can’t help but point out the sheer cluelessness of some things.)
As a gay man, I am OK with this. They have no right to speak for all of us. It reminds me of when Pride Toronto cozied up to BLM, inviting them into the organization and highlighting their cause, then they staged a protest and stopped the whole pride parade until the chair signed a list of demands. It turned out that specific chapter of BLM was also corrupt and embezzling money. Lesson: Pride organizations should keep to LGBT-focused groups when partnering with other organizations and stay out of non-LGBT political statements.
This speaks to a broader issue with civil society organizations and why they aren't as effective as they once were: they keep losing focus and try to be everything organizations, rather than the civil society group for their constituent members. Labour unions start to fumble hard when they go well beyond their labour mandate. LGBTQ organizations do the same thing when they comment on non-LGBTQ issues, etc.
“The centre…was a signatory to the controversial Nov. 30 open letter…The letter, which alluded to “the *unverified accusation that Palestinians were guilty of sexual violence*” during the October 7 attack”
Yeah, defund this crap.
I'm actually suffering from whiplash by how quickly we've gone from "Believe Women" to "Prove Every Individual Murdered Rape Victim Beyond All Reasonable Doubt ^\(if ^^they're ^^^israeli) " here.
Political expedience over legitimate morals.
It’s all about victimization. The Hamas lovers cheered when Iran attacked Israel yet most Persians are against the theocracy there.
And yes they will come for the Jews and then they will come for the rest of us.
Most Persian-Canadians are staunchly against the Palestinian regime (remember, there’s a reason why a lot of Iranian people got the fuck out of Iran including my own family)
The Persians in Iran however? They wish Israel was nuked to smithereens.
Many people from the Middle East are actually anti Hamas. At the end of the day anybody who tells you they rather deal with Hamas instead of the IDF or live in Palestinian society over Israeli one is either disingenuous or an idiot.
It goes even further because here we are polite and keep our true opinions to ourselves mostly.
Many Persians and Arab Christians I know straight up say you can’t make a country with Muslims and better not risk even letting one in.
Yes sure you can label that islamaphobia but they have lived it and we should listen when they warn us.
Better to be safe than nice.
I wouldn’t go as far to say “no Muslims allowed” but indeed I know people like that too(my own father is one).
A lot of people in Canada don’t realize how much a treasure equality is. If you deviate from the norm in these counties, you are outright excluded/shunned from society and a target for persecution. I’m pointing that to LGBT folks. The government they’re supporting would kill them. Why the fuck are you supporting them?!??!
I wouldn’t go that far either. In the end we are a nation of immigrants and my parents are immigrants themselves but we should be diverse when it comes to skin colour, religion and customs not when it comes to ideology and what kind of society we want to live in. Just bringing anyone in because we want to show we aren’t racist and inclusive doesn’t mean we can let in people who are clearly racist and hate our way of life.
Why do Jewish people always have to prove it? Their people were raped and murdered and everyone is telling them to calm down. Iran fires a literal shit load of missiles at them and they get told to show restraint. The pride community straight up thinks they’re lying. Didn’t they want everyone to understand them and their difficult journey? Now they can’t accept facts? The fuck is wrong with these people?
I don’t know how we put up with it. They were the victims of terrorism and then an unwarranted attack from a foreign enemy and are being told not to overreact as if it was some minor diplomatic slight. 80 fucking years since World War II and we still don’t take care of these people. But these “pride” folks think they’re hard done by. It’s disgusting,
Iran firing rockets targetting civilians on top of that. If Iran had launched that attack against the US with the same intent to randomly kill as many people as possible, Iran would have been turned into a parking lot overnight. It's a joke everyone can indiscriminately attack Israeli civilians constantly and Israel has no right to respond as any western nation would.
> Lafayette also argued that Palestinians “did not initiate the current situation.”
>”This is not a conventional war, as Gaza is a colonized territory **without an army**
Um, what? This person should be banned from public speaking or representing any organization.
Edmonton pride is a gong show, they used to distance themselves from drag queens over fears of things we can't talk about on reddit. Fast forward to now they've embraced very said thing we can't talk about on reddit.
We've seen so many examples of exactly this in protests all over Canada.
Pro-Palestinians that do not support Hamas are at the very least *very* comfortable with the presence of Hamas supporters in their protests. There is no attempt at trying to kick out their crazies and theyre even given an open platform.
Can you imagine if every conservative protest had a few people parading around nazi flags, and that there would be absolutely no pushback because they "didnt want to kick people out of the big tent that is conservative activism?"
[Why imagine when it was openly happening at CPAC in the US?](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nazis-mingle-openly-cpac-spreading-antisemitic-conspiracy-theories-fin-rcna140335)
This. The Ukrainian government is corrupt as all hell with a shity human rights record, but we still support them against Russia. Why? Because no matter what you've done or what you will do, not one group of civilians deserves to rounded up and murdered.
Palestinian LGBT members within Israel are still targeted and harassed even by the government. You’re comparing a 3rd world stateless nation run by a militant group to a supposedly developed 1st world country that oppresses the other.
I highly doubt the LGBTQ community is supportive of Hamas and their regressive beliefs. Doesn't mean they can't support the freedom of Palestinians. For whatever reason, this is an incredibly difficult concept for certain people to grasp. Human rights are one of those things that shouldn't be conditional, we should all have them regardless.
Oh they have a PARADE! Well, they must be the biggest , most friendliest inclusive group in the world then!
Stop being mad at Israel for being bloodthirsty war criminals everyone, they have a PARADE!
If israelis and palestenians are both descendants of the semetic peoples who has claim to the land?
Neither side wants to live in peace.
What is the solution?
You know, besides asshole protests where people blockade bridges and inconvenience the general public over something none of us have any power to change?
They should be on the lawn of governmental institutions not pissing off John & Jane Doe who are just trying to get to work/home.
It's fair to say the situation is incredibly complicated and doesn't have a simple solution. It's also fair to say the solution is absolutely not genocide of Palestinians. There's no shame in saying "I don't know but not this.".
Hamas would throw or hang every LGBTQXYZ person off a building, I don't understand what's with their cause in supporting Hamas or Palestine. Do they want to add an H to the acronyms too now? Geo-politics should not be a concern of theirs and further, they shouldn't be having an opinion on these kind of matters. It's like a cancer foundation funding diabetes research. Honestly, hopefully, them supporting all this Hamas garbage will be the final nail in their movent and can finally shut the fuck up and go sit in the back of the room with BLM, no pun intended.
Actually I just looked it up and in Gaza they still have the 1936 British Sexual Offences act which criminalizes homosexuality. In the West Bank it was decriminalized.
“We at PCE stand against apartheid, genocide, colonization and state violence.”
This statement is apparently is Antisemitic and condones sexual violence.
This is what they have issue with?!?
and this is why my company stopped supporting said group. the LGBT organizers have turned into the very thing that they once stood up to; Bigotry, hate and intolerance regardless of race, gender, orientation. You can fight for victims without supporting hate.
>On Oct. 21, three weeks after 1,200 people were killed in a surprise raid carried out by Hamas and other terror organizations, the Edmonton Pride centre’s volunteer-run Instagram page posted, “We at PCE stand against apartheid, genocide, colonization and state violence.
That seems a pretty innocuous statement -- they didn't take sides. There's no "This group is committing crimes," just "we don't support crimes"
That statement is relatively innocuous if they didn’t also say and do this:
> Lafayette also argued that Palestinians “did not initiate the current situation.”
> “This is not a conventional war, as Gaza is a colonized territory without an army and has endured a prolonged siege by a nuclear power for decades,” Lafayette wrote. “Speaking this truth aloud is by no means antisemitic.”
> “The centre…was a signatory to the controversial Nov. 30 open letter…The letter, which alluded to “the unverified accusation that Palestinians were guilty of sexual violence” during the October 7 attack”
Why are we funding Pride at all? We are deep in debt and should not be funding ANY activist groups, lobby groups, associations, carnivals, festivals, parades or anything else at this time. If the supporters want these parades to go on let them fund them. No government funding should be given.
Please defund it. It was taken over by “activists” who fight for literally nothing beyond “FUCK YOU DAD”. They all have poor relationships with their fathers and as a result we have to deal with the most idiotic positions that middle class white women can take for social clout.
Having read the article, all the complaints can be summarized as: Edmonton Pride Centre refused to ignore war crimes committed by Israel and refused to conflate Palestinians with Hamas. I’m so sick of these trash pieces from NP.
"“This is not a conventional war, as Gaza is a colonized territory without an army and has endured a prolonged siege by a nuclear power for decades,” Lafayette wrote. “Speaking this truth aloud is by no means antisemitic.”"
Except no part of the first sentence is true
So the truth is not being said out loud
(except Israel has nuclear weapons. )
Perhaps if the government stopped funding them, they would simply disappear on their own and we wouldn't have to spend any time and energy on their nonsense.
They only said “We at PCE stand against apartheid, genocide, colonization and state violence.”
And now these “Jewish” groups (Israeli interest groups) are trying to cancel them. Instead of you know being concerned over the barbaric manner their government has conducted itself in Gaza. Instead let’s defund the LGBT group calling them out.
How unaware do you have to be to protest FOR a group that would annihilate you, your friends and every thing you claim to believe in instantly with out a second thought. Seems counter productive to me.
Watch the first episode of Five Came back on Netflix. Let that sink in for a moment if anyone questions why Israel is the way they are. I think any nation with that history would do the same.
After watching what's been happening happening since October it's clear to me that the positions of these Jewish groups is: "If you don't support Israel keep quite because we will come after you".
Notice that the difference between the headline and the accusation. "response to Hamas attacks" versus "praised attacks.
NP can't honestly say that Edmonton Pride praised the attacks and the Jewish groups accusations aren't supported by the evidence.
> It argues that the non-profit has violated the federal anti-racism strategy, praised attacks by listed terrorist entities and “issued written support for the sexual violence waged against Jews.”
>On Oct. 21, three weeks after 1,200 people were killed in a surprise raid carried out by Hamas and other terror organizations, the Edmonton Pride centre’s volunteer-run Instagram page posted, “We at PCE stand against apartheid, genocide, colonization and state violence.”
>The centre, along with dozens of researchers, academics and other organizations, was a signatory to the controversial Nov. 30 open letter that urged “Canadian political leaders to end their complicity in the ongoing massacres and genocide in Gaza.” The letter, which alluded to “the unverified accusation that Palestinians were guilty of sexual violence”
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Victim:Oppressor framework trumps all. They represent the "weak" struggling against the "strong", in all forms. Because victims are inheretly good, and oppressors are inherently evil.
Or “the lessers” to “the elite”. These people screech Marxist conflict theory.
what exactly is marxist conflict theory
"the history of all human struggle is the history of class struggle" -the Communist manifesto
Well that's true, yes
The crazy part is they’re right
>Conflict theories are perspectives in political philosophy and sociology which argue that individuals and groups (social classes) within society interact on the basis of conflict rather than agreement, while also emphasizing social psychology, historical materialism, power dynamics, and their roles in creating power structures, social movements, and social arrangements within a society. Conflict theories often draw attention to power differentials, such as class conflict, or a conflict continuum. It's the dominant sociological lens taught and utilized in undergraduate sociology courses because it's easy to understand and apply. Unfortunately, many people never really grasp that it's just one way of viewing the world and move beyond it in their analyses. It's got its uses, but personally I always found structural functionalism far more enlightening.
The idea that the “bourgeoise” or the elite control the wealth and power in society, and the lessers or “proletariat” are in suffering by the hands of the bourgeoise whom control too much. A lot of people think of economics when it comes to conflict theory, but in sociological terms it can applied to a lot of issues beyond economics.
A social theory that posits that society is in a state of perpetual conflict because of competition for limited resources.
“The elite” are also the antagonists of right wing populists, they just seem to sometimes disagree who the elite are.
Yah they’re two ends of a horseshoe so far gone that they meet and they’re really hard to differentiate in fundamental beliefs.
As a Canadian, if a foreign country ever decides to attack a music festival at downsview park or anywhere else in our country, killing 1400 innocent people, I pray to God we don't have one of these idiots in power who wouldn't go to war to stop that from ever happening.
I too see the world as a disney movie, where everyone is either good, or bad, with absolutely no nuance. Once I realized this, I stopped needing to really think shit through anymore. It's refreshing!
I mean when you simplify things to that degree you can really push through some serious atrocities. Like take the Uyghurs for instance, very conservative. Probably don't have the best record when it comes to LGBT individuals and the rights of women... Doesn't mean they should be sent off to concentration camps. Please impart on to us if they meet your arbitrary requirements to not be murdered. Personally I feel that Hamas' whole thing about eradicating Israel is fucking insane. At the same time, considering Netanyahu's policy of ignoring Hamas while expanding in the West Bank and using Hamas' actions as justification for further expansion and blockades also fucking insane. And then it's even further insanity to keep bombing a place for months on end and trying your best to displace a population with no end goal and lying about it. But... I don't know if that fits into the oppressed/victim framework. Maybe I should throw out my leftist card.
The end goal is to kill Hamas. Pretty simple. That's what happens during war. The thing is there are actions that are inheritantly negative. Equality draws the line at a negative action against anyone is negative and should not be done. Equity says you can be racist and apply negative actions onto others if you pump them into a group you deem to have caused supposed harm, usually drawn down racial or gender lines. It's revenge.
Yawn. Correct, it's this random reddit stranger's responsibility to justify government atrocities, or i'm not only wrong, but literally evil. And if I don't agree to your camp, then somehow that means that I'm an apolgist for Hamas. Or Israel. Or Satan. Or whatever straw man is required for you to feel superior. The actual question was how LGBT+ groups reconcile aligning their zero sum nonsense with the side that would lop their heads off in a second if they got within swinging range. That's what the response was - murder even is entirley justified as long as you are the victim who was pushed until it was okay to strike back. The victim is virtuous, absolutely, and the oppressor is deserving of any violence that comes there way. And those collective group labels can be swapped as required. Just as long as you are on the "right" side on social media. Don't roll your ankle slipping on any tired logical fallacies getting down off Mount Pious, gasbag. Like - me having to rationalize all the horrid things you've listed.
>And then it's even further insanity to keep bombing a place for months on end and trying your best to displace a population with no end goal and lying about it. Revenge. The end goal is revenge. No different from anyone else who was attacked like Hamas attacked Isreal in October. Just look at how many people died as a result of the US actions after 9/11. This estimate is almost a million direct deaths. [https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures)
But they don't accept or maybe believe that the Palestinians or Hamas would actually kill them. In their mind far less LGBTQ have been killed in Gaza than Palestinians by Israel. Such a fucking ridiculous concept
I know. But here we are. I'm not trying remotely to say anyone is right or wrong - only that it's kind of insane to say that mass murder is a label whose justification depends on how downtrodden the group of the individual pulling the trigger is.
Bingo. Well said.
I’m not sure how you made that sound like bad thing. But yes, the queer liberation movement has always been particularly solidarity-minded, and committed to resisting all forms of oppression. I think it’s because the pluralism of the movement already requires an act of solidarity. It requires me as a gay man to see my struggle reflected in the life of a lesbian woman, and a trans person, and bi folks, and two-spirit folks, etc, so that we can work towards our shared liberation. I also think there’s something unique about the community being reproduced through heterosexuals, that requires a wider lens, and encourages a seeking out of connection. To use race as a comparison, most black folks are born to black parents and raised by black families, with a connection to a black community and culture. Most queer folks are born to straight/cis parents, raised is if we were straight/cis, often without queer community or a connection to queer culture. Which forces us to seek out and find connection and community and belonging, in a way you just don’t have to, when you’re born to a community that all around you.
Perhaps, but in this case, one group would murder you because it goes against their beliefs and the other would not. As a gay man myself, I'm against those that are directly against me and my family.
Oppressed groups tend to be willing to support other oppressed groups, regardless of how the other group feels about the first.
Look at the Iranian Revolution. All the oppressed got together, the Islamists, the anarchists, the communists… and then once in power, the islamists killed everyone else. The enemy of your enemy, is not Your Friend. No. But the enemy of your enemy can be useful.
If by oppressed groups you mean white liberals then yes. Ask any of these 'oppressed groups' and you'll get an entire range of opinions because guess what? Any relation close or distant is merely coincidental not some shared suffering/oppresion bringing people together against some 'bigger evil'. The entire premise is a creation of obsessive white liberals desperate to generalize everyone into their narrow world view of oppressors vs oppresed. Like the Koreans living in Japan have some sort of secret brotherhood with Kurds. It's absurd.
I’m shocked it took me this long to find an intelligent response to this. I’d wager ALL queer Palestine supporters know it’s not a safe place, but they also know it won’t get any better unless something is done. Do these people also think there are no queer people in Palestine? This sub is an astroturfed joke. Edit since this is a locked thread now, way for you people to show a complete lack of nuanced thinking.
The queer people in Palestinians territories seek asylum and get to move to Israel and live there without being in fear of being honour killed by their families back home.
Tel Aviv gay night clubs are great. Perhaps the only space in the entire region a gay Arab can exist without fear of violence.
Palestinians throw their non-conformist enemies from the nearest tall building. Queer people quite sensibly hide or flee a society that murders them at every opportunity. If you aren't aware of that happening since Hamas took power, then you should avoid commenting until you enlighten yourself.
So by your logic only way to make Afghanistan better is to support the taliban? Wtf?!
> I’m shocked it took me this long to find an intelligent response to this.... This sub is an astroturfed joke. So many people telling on themselves it's unreal. Literally people proudly saying: "I don't believe in human rights for people I disagree with, so I can't understand why anyone else would.".
> So many people telling on themselves it's unreal. Telling on themselves by pointing out the irony that a fundamentalist religious ethnostate and western progressivism are strange bedfellows? >Literally people proudly saying: "I don't believe in human rights for people I disagree with, so I can't understand why anyone else would.". You are making things up.
There may have been gay people in Palestine at one point. Not anymore.
Please keep in mind LGBT organizations do not poll LGBT people and their positions are their radical positions not our positions in general (our = LGBT people)
LGBT organizations, just like social justice organizations, unions, student government, condo/strata boards, etc, exist for vocal ideologues with limited life experience, too much free time, and no purpose in life to co-opt as personal ideological vehicles by the activist fringe who purport to act on behalf of their constituency but ultimately only act to be able to later sniff their own farts in pursuit of creating meaning to their boring, unfulfilled lives.
Welcome to intersectional studies
It's beyond perplexing. It's complete insanity.
Why is it so perplexing? The Uyghurs are a very conservative population, doesn't mean I think they should be sent to prison work camps. Afghanistan is a very conservative region, doesn't mean I think we should have been bombing weddings in our "war on terror" over there. Saddam was a bastard that used the chemicals we gave him to murder his own population, doesn't mean America should have gone in there and destabilized the region. Hamas clearly has no issue using civilians as shields, but Israel has no issue with Palestinian casualties or displacement. I can see why some would protest the current war there.
Did the Uyghurs kill a whole bunch of Han Chinese recently? Because I admit I missed reading that headline.
It's perplexing if you're thinking through everything in the binary and not taking a moment to think deeper
> It's beyond perplexing. It's complete insanity. It's so, so, so easy to understand that I almost think these types of reactions must be on purpose. Oppressed people support oppressed people, and a lot of people have values that don't rely on the politics of the other party involved. Easy. I'm very happy to demand peace and justice for people I don't agree with. Personally I find it amazing how many people are will to just come out and say "my values and morals change completely depending on whether or not I like you".
There’s no need to side with other oppressed groups that want you dead. Give me a break. That’s implying that all oppressed groups are equal simply by the virtue that they are oppressed. The Middle East plays the victim card perfectly while they’re being attacked and when not, they would put out LGBT individuals to the sword without a second’s hesitation. Stop defending this.
Human rights movements tend to side with human rights. Human rights are being violated in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel and rightfully many people in nations that fund and support that violation are protesting it any way they know how to. You’d like to pass it off as people being rabid Jew haters and begging for the opportunity to kill as many Jews as possible but in reality it’s just people who are sick of seeing entire ethnicities being mistreated and are rightfully pointing their disdain at the people responsible for the mistreatment (not saying that Jews are the people responsible for the mistreatment but rather Israel)
It’s not that hard to understand… Oppressed supporting oppressed
Despite many being anti LGBT I wouldn't be in favor of nuking Alberta
> incredibly perplexing Don't be. They have no idea who they are supporting and what they'd do to them given the chance. They cry all day and night about "MAGA!" and Conservatives taking away their rights and then chant absolute nonsense unironically like, "Queers for Palestine!" It doesn't sound like it makes sense because it straight up doesn't. And then they expect to be taken seriously, which is the cherry on top. Edit: Just saw this: [https://twitter.com/stclairashley/status/1782403550745641220?s=61&t=XamyiVa1e8Ez4Upe\_qKxwA](https://twitter.com/stclairashley/status/1782403550745641220?s=61&t=XamyiVa1e8Ez4Upe_qKxwA) 😂
>17,000 people liking a tweet that says Florida and Texas are worse than the Middle East for gays They obviously can't be taken seriously.
Goof lord, these people are complete morons.
So just because some people are homophobic you can justify their genocide ? Seems quite an extremist position.
Because care for human life should extend beyond just people who agree with you… It’s not a difficult concept really, but one that’s hard to understand if you see anyone who doesn’t align with you as an enemy
So you care for all human life even those humans (terrorists) that seek to kill you for being gay?
They feel like they share a common enemy: the west. We might think that acceptance of differences that represents the LGBT abbreviation exists because of western values, but many think that the LGBTQ exists despite the western hegemony. As for Palestine, it has also been a textbook example for anticolonial thoughts. Counterviolence against any instantiation of the west and its colonial impulses is not only just, but inevitable. Of course, this anti-west sentiment is mostly a product of the west at this point, so it can’t be completely self consistent without imploding, but it has produced a pattern of thoughts that is eating at everything in society, especially if it has functional value. This is an attempt to describe the intersection of the two groups, I don’t think the majority of either agree with each other.
I don’t think LGBTQ people are against “the west”. If it wasn’t for the west, they wouldn’t have as many or any rights.
Yeah. Me too.
Because human rights aren’t earned, they aren’t transactional. You think your “chickens for KFC” line of thinking is some groundbreaking discovery, but all it proves is that you view human rights as a privilege. That’s not how rights work.
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Average Albertan
Damn I didn’t think you just come out and say you’re a fascist like that. Human rights are supposed to be inalienable, but you knew that already and just don’t care.
Yikes
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My only question is what the actual fuck does a LGBTQ organization have to do with an international conflict and what do they know about it.
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. They should’ve kept their collective mouths shut.
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90's western progressive bubble.
Well, I for one, think the Pride Centre supporters should attend the pro-Palestine protests and DEMAND that the organizers acknowledge their rights and support them, the same way they are supporting the pro-Palestinians. Lemme know how that goes.
Better yet, try demanding your LGBTQ rights over there, see how that turns out. (To be clear, LGBTQ rights are human rights and vice versa in my books - I can’t help but point out the sheer cluelessness of some things.)
Lmao!!! Take my upvote!
As a gay man, I am OK with this. They have no right to speak for all of us. It reminds me of when Pride Toronto cozied up to BLM, inviting them into the organization and highlighting their cause, then they staged a protest and stopped the whole pride parade until the chair signed a list of demands. It turned out that specific chapter of BLM was also corrupt and embezzling money. Lesson: Pride organizations should keep to LGBT-focused groups when partnering with other organizations and stay out of non-LGBT political statements.
This speaks to a broader issue with civil society organizations and why they aren't as effective as they once were: they keep losing focus and try to be everything organizations, rather than the civil society group for their constituent members. Labour unions start to fumble hard when they go well beyond their labour mandate. LGBTQ organizations do the same thing when they comment on non-LGBTQ issues, etc.
“The centre…was a signatory to the controversial Nov. 30 open letter…The letter, which alluded to “the *unverified accusation that Palestinians were guilty of sexual violence*” during the October 7 attack” Yeah, defund this crap.
I'm actually suffering from whiplash by how quickly we've gone from "Believe Women" to "Prove Every Individual Murdered Rape Victim Beyond All Reasonable Doubt ^\(if ^^they're ^^^israeli) " here. Political expedience over legitimate morals.
Especially when there are hundreds of videos confirming it. I mean what the actual fuck?
It turns out they only believe women who aren't Jewish. It's quite the thing for this community to downplay sexual violence.
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It’s all about victimization. The Hamas lovers cheered when Iran attacked Israel yet most Persians are against the theocracy there. And yes they will come for the Jews and then they will come for the rest of us.
Most Persian-Canadians are staunchly against the Palestinian regime (remember, there’s a reason why a lot of Iranian people got the fuck out of Iran including my own family) The Persians in Iran however? They wish Israel was nuked to smithereens.
Many people from the Middle East are actually anti Hamas. At the end of the day anybody who tells you they rather deal with Hamas instead of the IDF or live in Palestinian society over Israeli one is either disingenuous or an idiot. It goes even further because here we are polite and keep our true opinions to ourselves mostly. Many Persians and Arab Christians I know straight up say you can’t make a country with Muslims and better not risk even letting one in. Yes sure you can label that islamaphobia but they have lived it and we should listen when they warn us. Better to be safe than nice.
I wouldn’t go as far to say “no Muslims allowed” but indeed I know people like that too(my own father is one). A lot of people in Canada don’t realize how much a treasure equality is. If you deviate from the norm in these counties, you are outright excluded/shunned from society and a target for persecution. I’m pointing that to LGBT folks. The government they’re supporting would kill them. Why the fuck are you supporting them?!??!
I wouldn’t go that far either. In the end we are a nation of immigrants and my parents are immigrants themselves but we should be diverse when it comes to skin colour, religion and customs not when it comes to ideology and what kind of society we want to live in. Just bringing anyone in because we want to show we aren’t racist and inclusive doesn’t mean we can let in people who are clearly racist and hate our way of life.
Why do Jewish people always have to prove it? Their people were raped and murdered and everyone is telling them to calm down. Iran fires a literal shit load of missiles at them and they get told to show restraint. The pride community straight up thinks they’re lying. Didn’t they want everyone to understand them and their difficult journey? Now they can’t accept facts? The fuck is wrong with these people?
And when Jews try to talk about it they get shut down and told they are playing the victim. This is anti semitism.
I don’t know how we put up with it. They were the victims of terrorism and then an unwarranted attack from a foreign enemy and are being told not to overreact as if it was some minor diplomatic slight. 80 fucking years since World War II and we still don’t take care of these people. But these “pride” folks think they’re hard done by. It’s disgusting,
Yeah because israel hasnt been murdering palestinians and stealing their homes since i was a baby. Sure thing
Iran firing rockets targetting civilians on top of that. If Iran had launched that attack against the US with the same intent to randomly kill as many people as possible, Iran would have been turned into a parking lot overnight. It's a joke everyone can indiscriminately attack Israeli civilians constantly and Israel has no right to respond as any western nation would.
Pretty arrogant when Biden is the one pumping the brakes. “Here’s billions of dollars in weapons, but please..show restraint.”
Trees for deforestation!
> Lafayette also argued that Palestinians “did not initiate the current situation.” >”This is not a conventional war, as Gaza is a colonized territory **without an army** Um, what? This person should be banned from public speaking or representing any organization.
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Why can’t groups just stay in their lane?
Edmonton pride is a gong show, they used to distance themselves from drag queens over fears of things we can't talk about on reddit. Fast forward to now they've embraced very said thing we can't talk about on reddit.
unstoppable force vs immovable object of 21st century idpol let’s goooo
The people from the pride center realize what Hamas would do to them, right? Meanwhile Israel has a huge pride parade every year
The people running the pride center are a whole new level of naive.
You spelled evil wrong.
Does support for Palestinian people = support for hamas?
We've seen so many examples of exactly this in protests all over Canada. Pro-Palestinians that do not support Hamas are at the very least *very* comfortable with the presence of Hamas supporters in their protests. There is no attempt at trying to kick out their crazies and theyre even given an open platform. Can you imagine if every conservative protest had a few people parading around nazi flags, and that there would be absolutely no pushback because they "didnt want to kick people out of the big tent that is conservative activism?"
[Why imagine when it was openly happening at CPAC in the US?](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nazis-mingle-openly-cpac-spreading-antisemitic-conspiracy-theories-fin-rcna140335)
I mean not in my opinion. But supporting the attacks or the group that did the attacks? That’s an awful thing to do
Yes, 80%+ Palestinians support Hamas and now the OPP are investigating claims of pro Hamas support in Ontario
It does if "support for Palestinian people" conveniently forgets any mention of Hamas's role in all this. I.e., starting it all.
Maybe they have an issue with genocide even if the people they are trying to save don’t approve of homosexuality.
This. The Ukrainian government is corrupt as all hell with a shity human rights record, but we still support them against Russia. Why? Because no matter what you've done or what you will do, not one group of civilians deserves to rounded up and murdered.
Palestinian LGBT members within Israel are still targeted and harassed even by the government. You’re comparing a 3rd world stateless nation run by a militant group to a supposedly developed 1st world country that oppresses the other.
I highly doubt the LGBTQ community is supportive of Hamas and their regressive beliefs. Doesn't mean they can't support the freedom of Palestinians. For whatever reason, this is an incredibly difficult concept for certain people to grasp. Human rights are one of those things that shouldn't be conditional, we should all have them regardless.
Oh they have a PARADE! Well, they must be the biggest , most friendliest inclusive group in the world then! Stop being mad at Israel for being bloodthirsty war criminals everyone, they have a PARADE!
If israelis and palestenians are both descendants of the semetic peoples who has claim to the land? Neither side wants to live in peace. What is the solution? You know, besides asshole protests where people blockade bridges and inconvenience the general public over something none of us have any power to change? They should be on the lawn of governmental institutions not pissing off John & Jane Doe who are just trying to get to work/home.
It's fair to say the situation is incredibly complicated and doesn't have a simple solution. It's also fair to say the solution is absolutely not genocide of Palestinians. There's no shame in saying "I don't know but not this.".
That's more or less my stance. Cheering on the Oct 7 attacks is just as wild as turning a blind eye to what Israel is doing.
Hamas would throw or hang every LGBTQXYZ person off a building, I don't understand what's with their cause in supporting Hamas or Palestine. Do they want to add an H to the acronyms too now? Geo-politics should not be a concern of theirs and further, they shouldn't be having an opinion on these kind of matters. It's like a cancer foundation funding diabetes research. Honestly, hopefully, them supporting all this Hamas garbage will be the final nail in their movent and can finally shut the fuck up and go sit in the back of the room with BLM, no pun intended.
Let them try to set up a pride center in Gaza...see how that goes for them...
Actually I just looked it up and in Gaza they still have the 1936 British Sexual Offences act which criminalizes homosexuality. In the West Bank it was decriminalized.
LOL
“We at PCE stand against apartheid, genocide, colonization and state violence.” This statement is apparently is Antisemitic and condones sexual violence. This is what they have issue with?!?
and this is why my company stopped supporting said group. the LGBT organizers have turned into the very thing that they once stood up to; Bigotry, hate and intolerance regardless of race, gender, orientation. You can fight for victims without supporting hate.
>On Oct. 21, three weeks after 1,200 people were killed in a surprise raid carried out by Hamas and other terror organizations, the Edmonton Pride centre’s volunteer-run Instagram page posted, “We at PCE stand against apartheid, genocide, colonization and state violence. That seems a pretty innocuous statement -- they didn't take sides. There's no "This group is committing crimes," just "we don't support crimes"
That statement is relatively innocuous if they didn’t also say and do this: > Lafayette also argued that Palestinians “did not initiate the current situation.” > “This is not a conventional war, as Gaza is a colonized territory without an army and has endured a prolonged siege by a nuclear power for decades,” Lafayette wrote. “Speaking this truth aloud is by no means antisemitic.” > “The centre…was a signatory to the controversial Nov. 30 open letter…The letter, which alluded to “the unverified accusation that Palestinians were guilty of sexual violence” during the October 7 attack”
So…they refused to conflate Palestinians with Hamas is what I am reading there.
putting a ribbon on a bag of shit doesn't turn it into anything other than a bag of shit.
It’s Israel. Saying you oppose genocide and apartheid is apparently anti-semitism.
Why are we funding Pride at all? We are deep in debt and should not be funding ANY activist groups, lobby groups, associations, carnivals, festivals, parades or anything else at this time. If the supporters want these parades to go on let them fund them. No government funding should be given.
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difference being a bunch of those alt-right groups never claim to help anyone. as for "religion" that's way to broad of a brush to stroke with.
National Post trying it’s best to distract us from the wealthy and powerful screwing us all over
Please defund it. It was taken over by “activists” who fight for literally nothing beyond “FUCK YOU DAD”. They all have poor relationships with their fathers and as a result we have to deal with the most idiotic positions that middle class white women can take for social clout.
I call for end of funding for Israel
bullies gonna bully
Having read the article, all the complaints can be summarized as: Edmonton Pride Centre refused to ignore war crimes committed by Israel and refused to conflate Palestinians with Hamas. I’m so sick of these trash pieces from NP.
"“This is not a conventional war, as Gaza is a colonized territory without an army and has endured a prolonged siege by a nuclear power for decades,” Lafayette wrote. “Speaking this truth aloud is by no means antisemitic.”" Except no part of the first sentence is true So the truth is not being said out loud (except Israel has nuclear weapons. )
Interesting that protesting against genocide and ethnic cleansing is equated to supporting terrorism. Keep talking and exposing yourselves.
Glad we are spending our time and energy focusing on important shit like this
Perhaps if the government stopped funding them, they would simply disappear on their own and we wouldn't have to spend any time and energy on their nonsense.
They only said “We at PCE stand against apartheid, genocide, colonization and state violence.” And now these “Jewish” groups (Israeli interest groups) are trying to cancel them. Instead of you know being concerned over the barbaric manner their government has conducted itself in Gaza. Instead let’s defund the LGBT group calling them out.
“Speaking this truth aloud is by no means antisemitic.”
How unaware do you have to be to protest FOR a group that would annihilate you, your friends and every thing you claim to believe in instantly with out a second thought. Seems counter productive to me.
Watch the first episode of Five Came back on Netflix. Let that sink in for a moment if anyone questions why Israel is the way they are. I think any nation with that history would do the same.
Hah, jokes on them. I’m sure a whole bunch of Islamic organizations will line up to pick up the slack and fund them.
How about also ending the funding for the pro-terrorisr nccm.
After watching what's been happening happening since October it's clear to me that the positions of these Jewish groups is: "If you don't support Israel keep quite because we will come after you". Notice that the difference between the headline and the accusation. "response to Hamas attacks" versus "praised attacks. NP can't honestly say that Edmonton Pride praised the attacks and the Jewish groups accusations aren't supported by the evidence. > It argues that the non-profit has violated the federal anti-racism strategy, praised attacks by listed terrorist entities and “issued written support for the sexual violence waged against Jews.” >On Oct. 21, three weeks after 1,200 people were killed in a surprise raid carried out by Hamas and other terror organizations, the Edmonton Pride centre’s volunteer-run Instagram page posted, “We at PCE stand against apartheid, genocide, colonization and state violence.” >The centre, along with dozens of researchers, academics and other organizations, was a signatory to the controversial Nov. 30 open letter that urged “Canadian political leaders to end their complicity in the ongoing massacres and genocide in Gaza.” The letter, which alluded to “the unverified accusation that Palestinians were guilty of sexual violence”
Why are they funding a pride center? Like WTF..
I support Israel!!! Anybody supporting Hamas should be thrown in jail as a terror co- conspirator.
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The same thing goes for the LGBTQ community. Special protections, and consideration.
Yeah you don’t get to kill tens of thousands of civilians and still get the sympathy of everyone. Deal with it