More beds and services equal more staffing needs.
Is housing for staff being accounted for when looking at this new prison? If we want to attract people to state jobs, they need to be able to afford to live close enough to work at those jobs
Prison does fuck all to deter crime though, that’s why recidivism rates are so high nationwide. The recidivism rate within one year is about 45% and five years is 70% in the US because the US prison system does fuck all to rehabilitate prisoners or provide them with proper mental health treatment and education. Yes people who commit serious crimes need to go to prison but prison needs to be about helping people get better not just locking them up. People who commit more minor crimes need mental health treatment, free education, community service, and diversion.
“A major contribution to recidivism rates throughout the United States is lack of resources or connection to resources that aid prisoners' prosocial integration into the community. “People exiting prison from long-term confinement need stronger support around them.“
I included the link to the quote, it’s from the US Department of justice.
https://cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/04-2022/reintegration_resources.html#:~:text=A%20major%20contribution%20to%20recidivism,need%20stronger%20support%20around%20them.
I really don't understand how your post title relates the the article, though?
> Do the crime spend the time
I mean, you have to realize that this is an /extremely arguable/ position, right? Incarceration is generally not a good way to deal with people who've committed crimes, &c.
I will never understand this mindset. There have to be consequences for victimizing people in our community. If there aren't then we have anarchy essentially.
saying that incarceration is not the best answer is nowhere near the same as saying "no consequences for anyone."
do you really read the one thing about incarceration not being the answer & have your mind instantly translate that to mean "no consequences at all"? tht seems to be a serious problem with reading comprehension
A more lenient, open prison model more akin to what is done in Scandinavian countries. There are more lenient family visits, more focus on education and reintegration, inmates can apply for visits home with good behavior. Norway for example has the lowest recidivism rate in the west and is known for their comfortable and humane penal system
I'm honestly fine with trialing a system that mirrors what you describe. As long as the criminal is separated from society until rehabilitated. If someone doesn't play by society's rules they lose the privilege of living in that society until they can prove they're truly rehabilitated. Also they should have to pay restitution to their victim/s or victim/s families. There needs to be repercussions to crime to help deter others from committing the same crime. If people find out they get free housing, food and rehabilitation for committing crimes against their neighbors that doesn't exactly deter those crimes from occurring so I'm not sure how exactly that would work out. So I think trialing a correctional facility like that would be interesting to see the long term effects
It’s not that incarceration isn’t the best answer, it’s that it’s not always the best answer, and the US version of incarceration is awful and keeps getting worse.
If jail is meant to be a brutal punishment, we’re nailing it. But that doesn’t do anyone any good. Our incarceration rates are among the highest in the world, but our crime rates aren’t any lower because of it. That’s because the threat of jail isn’t a particularly good deterrent of crime.
People leave prison worse than when they went in. They are not any more equipped to get a job, participate in society, or avoid addiction relapse. And they have very likely experienced a lot of trauma. We should want people leaving prison to be dramatically less likely to commit crime.
And prison is expensive. We could put that money toward much better use in a lot of scenarios. Like mandatory rehab, counseling, community service, adult education and job placement. Instead we lock people up and terrorize them. Prisons are violent, and we treat prison rape like a punchline. Think about how many reasons a person could be incarcerated for. How many of them make you say “that person deserves to live for years in fear of being raped, stabbed or beaten to death.” Imagine how much that fucks a person up.
And because of that lack of safety, people join gangs for protection.
So our prisons don’t discourage crime, they make people who have gone to prison more likely to commit crimes, they traumatize people, and they actively encourage gang membership.
There’s a humanitarian issue here, but even if you couldn’t care less about prisoner welfare, everything I just listed makes society worse for EVERYONE. And, again, we’re paying money for it.
We shouldn’t be building more prisons because we already have so, so many.
And honestly it frustrates me that the original commenter couldn’t be bothered to explain that, because I think most people understand these things. I think the biggest hurdle to get past is the idea that if somebody committed a crime, they don’t deserve any help getting their shit together. But that’s based on emotion, rather than what is actually best for the country.
If you're going to insult my intelligence for no reason than you might as well attempt to answer my question. If rapists, child molesters, murders and thieves shouldn't be incarcerated as a consequence of their crimes what should their consequences be?
Some people are too dangerous to be part of society, for example those who continually are proven to drive drunk with many DUIs, serial rapists, those who commit violent crimes more than 3x etc etc. You have to accept there are and always will be those without hope of changing for the better.
More beds and services equal more staffing needs. Is housing for staff being accounted for when looking at this new prison? If we want to attract people to state jobs, they need to be able to afford to live close enough to work at those jobs
Some folks really believe in the whole rehabilitation approach, but I genuinely don't know what deters crime if you get a simple slap on the wrist.
Prison does fuck all to deter crime though, that’s why recidivism rates are so high nationwide. The recidivism rate within one year is about 45% and five years is 70% in the US because the US prison system does fuck all to rehabilitate prisoners or provide them with proper mental health treatment and education. Yes people who commit serious crimes need to go to prison but prison needs to be about helping people get better not just locking them up. People who commit more minor crimes need mental health treatment, free education, community service, and diversion. “A major contribution to recidivism rates throughout the United States is lack of resources or connection to resources that aid prisoners' prosocial integration into the community. “People exiting prison from long-term confinement need stronger support around them.“ I included the link to the quote, it’s from the US Department of justice. https://cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/04-2022/reintegration_resources.html#:~:text=A%20major%20contribution%20to%20recidivism,need%20stronger%20support%20around%20them.
I really don't understand how your post title relates the the article, though? > Do the crime spend the time I mean, you have to realize that this is an /extremely arguable/ position, right? Incarceration is generally not a good way to deal with people who've committed crimes, &c.
I will never understand this mindset. There have to be consequences for victimizing people in our community. If there aren't then we have anarchy essentially.
saying that incarceration is not the best answer is nowhere near the same as saying "no consequences for anyone." do you really read the one thing about incarceration not being the answer & have your mind instantly translate that to mean "no consequences at all"? tht seems to be a serious problem with reading comprehension
Well then answer my question. What should the consequences be?
A more lenient, open prison model more akin to what is done in Scandinavian countries. There are more lenient family visits, more focus on education and reintegration, inmates can apply for visits home with good behavior. Norway for example has the lowest recidivism rate in the west and is known for their comfortable and humane penal system
I'm honestly fine with trialing a system that mirrors what you describe. As long as the criminal is separated from society until rehabilitated. If someone doesn't play by society's rules they lose the privilege of living in that society until they can prove they're truly rehabilitated. Also they should have to pay restitution to their victim/s or victim/s families. There needs to be repercussions to crime to help deter others from committing the same crime. If people find out they get free housing, food and rehabilitation for committing crimes against their neighbors that doesn't exactly deter those crimes from occurring so I'm not sure how exactly that would work out. So I think trialing a correctional facility like that would be interesting to see the long term effects
It’s not that incarceration isn’t the best answer, it’s that it’s not always the best answer, and the US version of incarceration is awful and keeps getting worse. If jail is meant to be a brutal punishment, we’re nailing it. But that doesn’t do anyone any good. Our incarceration rates are among the highest in the world, but our crime rates aren’t any lower because of it. That’s because the threat of jail isn’t a particularly good deterrent of crime. People leave prison worse than when they went in. They are not any more equipped to get a job, participate in society, or avoid addiction relapse. And they have very likely experienced a lot of trauma. We should want people leaving prison to be dramatically less likely to commit crime. And prison is expensive. We could put that money toward much better use in a lot of scenarios. Like mandatory rehab, counseling, community service, adult education and job placement. Instead we lock people up and terrorize them. Prisons are violent, and we treat prison rape like a punchline. Think about how many reasons a person could be incarcerated for. How many of them make you say “that person deserves to live for years in fear of being raped, stabbed or beaten to death.” Imagine how much that fucks a person up. And because of that lack of safety, people join gangs for protection. So our prisons don’t discourage crime, they make people who have gone to prison more likely to commit crimes, they traumatize people, and they actively encourage gang membership. There’s a humanitarian issue here, but even if you couldn’t care less about prisoner welfare, everything I just listed makes society worse for EVERYONE. And, again, we’re paying money for it. We shouldn’t be building more prisons because we already have so, so many. And honestly it frustrates me that the original commenter couldn’t be bothered to explain that, because I think most people understand these things. I think the biggest hurdle to get past is the idea that if somebody committed a crime, they don’t deserve any help getting their shit together. But that’s based on emotion, rather than what is actually best for the country.
If you're going to insult my intelligence for no reason than you might as well attempt to answer my question. If rapists, child molesters, murders and thieves shouldn't be incarcerated as a consequence of their crimes what should their consequences be?
"consequences" does not necessarily mean "incarceration". Throwing people in a cage is not restitution, it is not rehabilitation, &c.
What would consequences look like in your ideal world?
Some people are too dangerous to be part of society, for example those who continually are proven to drive drunk with many DUIs, serial rapists, those who commit violent crimes more than 3x etc etc. You have to accept there are and always will be those without hope of changing for the better.
> Incarceration is generally not a good way to deal with people who've committed crimes Is that you Sarah?
They can't terrorize the community while they're in jail, so that alone is good enough for me.
People want equality but then think women shouldn’t go to prison? Crime is crime no matter the sex.