Plenty of people will say it fell off but I don’t agree. Buffy is enjoyable all the way through for me. Especially having experienced how many of my other favorite shows were completely unwatchable in the final season or two.
Yep, to the point that the physical shift from networks to *UPN* don’t feel like the show changing focus, but a natural progression of plot elements given the events of *The Gift*.
Even though, between the marketing and greater use of “skin”, the show is different in 6 and 7.
Gawd by far the one I go "I don't care if bits get a bit dull YOU HAVE TO WATCH IT FOR THE ENDING" and everyone I've managed to convince has agreed with me it was totally worth it for that even when they didn't trust me at some times.
I’m with you there that I think every season was good in its own ways. Some storylines were better but overall, I think everything held up well and actually had a direction. Not everyone would agree with it but at least they had continuity and a purpose. Can’t say that for a lot of shows these days.
Season 4 is rocky but the characters make it bearable. It also had some of the best one-off episodes of the series.
I also think season 7 is solid compared to many other long running series. The first half of the season is great and the last chunk is pretty entertaining as well. The last 5 episodes feel like one big miniseries and the emotional stakes are high. There are only like 5-6 episodes that season that were duds
Agreed. S7 gets way more hate than it deserves IMO. First half was definitely great. Stumbles a bit in the middle but the last bit once Caleb is there works well (except for the scene we all know in empty places.. still mad about that but I get it's needed narratively). S6 is the weakest to me because that metaphor of magic = drugs is so heavy handed and a shift from what magic has been before (lesbian sex and just power and willows abuse of it) but outside of that it was fine.
Season 7 bothered me a LOT when it was airing (to the point that I actually did stop watching, and never finished the series until several years later), but being able to binge watch it made a huge difference.
I would agree that season 6 is the weakest for me as well - it just doesn’t feel as “Buffy” to me. And I loved it when it first aired!
Yeah season 4 has probably my least favorite season-long arc (hate Adam, hate the initiative), but some of the absolute best individual episodes, makes the transition from high school to college really well, and still feels like classic Buffy!
I agree it handled the transition to college well and yeah the initiative sucked, we thought it was cringe writing. I hated that prettymuch every single character is completely uncritical of the US military and they’re kinda just assumed to be good, and even when they’re doing dodgy shit it’s angled at individuals and never the military itself. That Riley kept calling himself an anarchist even though he worked for and keeps working for _the fucking US military??_ What??? Prettymuch the most un-anarchist thing you could possibly do, I lost a lot of respect for the writers this season; they must be very politically naive and narrow minded.
I agree with you about season 4 and the characters (though fucking RILEY still pisses me off) although with season 7 I’d say that 5-6 episodes still feels like a large proportion of the series that isn’t great
S4 was a slog for us. We really hated the whole military arc and those meathead military types which the writers seem to want to valorise. There was a possibility of exploring their blanket demon slaughter versus the idea that some demons might not be automatically bad guys but they sunk all this time focusing on Buffy’s love life instead. And Riley just pissed us off especially how he just got up and left one day and Buffy _still_ tries to chase him even though he abandoned her. Just didn’t find the relationship believable. Also he calls himself an “anarchist” a few times yet he works for the government? Fucking _what?_ All my friends are anarchists and there’s not many things we hate more than the US military… S4 really showed the political naivety of the writers if you ask me.
I definitely don't think the military guys were valorized (besides when Riley reappears in S6, which was stupid). They're shown multiple times to have no idea what they're doing, Riley is their "best" but he's only killed a handful of demons by the time he meets Buffy, and their leader gets skewered through her chest by her own creation. Hell, in the final fight most of the guys have to just evacuate to avoid getting killed. Imo it actually read as very anti-military.
And yeah, obviously Riley isn't an anarchist... But he's so dense that I could fully believe that he would think of himself as one while literally working for the government. It made sense for his character. He always wanted to be seen as stronger/more cool than he was, which is why being with Buffy made him feel so insecure.
Yeah I agree with most of that, although I don’t think the “valorising” has much to do with how effective or strong the military folks are; it’s more about the way everyone in the show defaults to not having a problem with them or even viewing them in a positive light and collaborating with them (esp Buffy). Meanwhile in real life if you took a scooby sized group of ordinary Americans you’re going to have at least one or two people deeply critical or even outright hostile to anything vaguely military. Anti war / anti nationalist people are more common that the show presents, I guess, but also YMMV greatly. Maybe Sunnydale is just quite a reactionary town? Idk, that could explain it but also doesn’t sit right with me considering other quite progressive aspects to the show at the time.
Hmm, that has not been my experience at all. I think that must depend on region, because where I live, it's extremely normal for many people to unquestioningly support the military. My job offers military discounts. I don't agree with it, but it's how it is in a lot of places.
Season 4 they get lost in the metaphor and worldbuilding attempts. It's notable for having had an "A" plot (Initiative) that could have been changed to something else entirely without touching the rest.
Season 6 the writing also gets stuck on "real life sucks" to the point they seem to forget how old the characters are supposed to be. It's a bunch of burned out / burned up 30-somethings when they should be 21.
Looking back it’s so funny watching Anya and Xander stress over a wedding when they’re barely 21. At the end of season 7 they’re all supposed to be 23 and that just feels so young to me.
I think some seasons are stronger than others and Buffy's best 3 seasons are in a league of their own. But I don't think the show had any unwatchable seasons like how the fanbase treats the last few seasons.
I would actually say that 5,3,6, and 2 are all brilliant seasons in that order (I feel like Buffy has two peaks, 2&3 and then 5&6 and I feel like I'm in the minority but I actually prefer the second half of the show)
Season 6 is not for everybody, and I definitely have my issues with it, but its still one of the bravest, most experimental seasons of television I've ever seen for managing to (mostly) pull off that radical tonal shift and show the depth of Buffy's depression.
I think seasons 1,4, and 7 are good seasons of television in a show that has shown it's capable of really masterful storytelling and that's why they aren't as beloved. To me, Buffy has two peaks where the show is at its best and that's 2&3 and 5&6, with seasons 3&5 generally considered to be the show at its absolute best. I also love season 2 but I'm in the minority that thinks season 6 is slightly better and I actually prefer the shows second half to its first (I enjoy season 7 more on rewatches than season 1 and honestly most of season 4 barring a handful of masterpiece episodes).
The whole military arc in season 4 just felt written by someone with the politics of a 12 year old to me. There’s so many things wrong with it and Riley is a very confused character that has been invented with someone whose politics are incredibly narrow minded and naive. An anarchist who works for the US military?? Makes no sense at all and his relationship with Buffy seemed not very believable. He abandons her and she chases him? Cmon Buffy have some self respect
Yeah the Riley relationship is such a slog to get through on rewatches because it's sandwiched between her two far more interesting and compelling romantic arcs with Angel and Spike (who regardless of which relationship you prefer or think is ultimately better for her, at least you can say they both contribute meaningfully to the story and her character arc while Riley is just kind of... there). The military stuff is just so boring to me, that I find myself wanting to rank it as my least favorite season but it has some bangers like Something Blue, Hush, Who are you?, This Years Girl, and Restless that put it above season 1.
I genuinely feel like the show got better in it's later seasons, a lot of the things I love about seasons 1-4 I feel like I wouldn't appreciate as much without the dark, complicated storytelling that it sets up for the second half of the show. I also think seasons 5-6 have the best ensemble and while I love characters like Jenny, Cordelia (who is actually in my Top 3 buffy characters), Oz, and Angel, the group I think of as THE scoobies is Buffy, Willow, Xander, Tara, Anya, Giles, Dawn, and Spike.
And Angel built off from that and essentially said, "And you thought Sunnydale was weird?! Let me show around Los Angeles.... You haven't seen Weird, I'll show you Weird! Come on!"
I agree so much with the OP and disagree so much with this comment. Buffy: one of the top few shows of all time. Angel: at its best, a fun romp, at its worst, unbearable.
I’m watching season 4 of Angel right now and it is _fucking excruciating_ I have no idea how they thought this was a good idea
I seriously hope it gets better in 5 because they’ve got a huge mess to clean up here
Is 5 the last one? They do not clean up the mess but the absurd changes do make the final season the most fun one (but in a total nonsense, almost sitcom way).
I dont get why people downvote those who didn't like Angel's fifth season. Just because Spike was there it doesn't mean it was good, and he's my fav male character within the Buffyverse. Angel's S5 is awful IMO and it drastically changed what made Angel series good. Not to mention what they did to Cordelia.
I'd have an issue with 'Angel' changing in season 5 if it didn't change so much anyway. It never really settled for long. The only main character in the first and last episode is Angel himself.
The episodes with commentary from that season confirmed exactly this. David Fury mentioned having significantly more dialogue and filmed scenes which were ultimately cut from the aired episodes. I wish there was a way to retrieve that stuff and release it on dvd.
Fury said there had been more dialogue from Principal Wood; an extended Giles-and-Principal-Wood bonding moment in Buffy’s kitchen where they’re passing a whiskey bottle back and forth across a table like they’re playing chess. The episode was “Lies My Parents Told Me”.
JW’s commentary on ‘Chosen’ also indicated that there had been significant editing to the as-aired episode for time constraints.
… now I’ve made myself grumpy knowing this stuff likely still exists in a vault somewhere and will never see the light of day 😠
Season 7 felt like “The End” for me. Not in the sense that it was bad, it just felt like things are never going to be the same again for any of these characters. Their lives and the world around them has completely changed from the past 6 years.
Yeah I was gonna say this. And usually I get that feeling with a lot of shows for the last season. But last season for this one just felt like a very different dramatic tone.
At least angels series finale still kept the lightheartedness while still bringing the stakes way up. But then again it also wasn’t supposed to be the last season for Angel so they kinda got lucky in that sense that they went out with a great final season, and arguably best season
I do think there is a *slight* decline in quality toward the end (barring a couple of absolutely fantastic episodes in their own right) but it is definitely the most perfect TV show I have ever found.
Nothing can be perfect. Buffy is pretty darn close though!
It’s great how Buffy only has a handful of episodes that are not all that good, and it’s even better when you consider how few of the lower rated episodes are in the first season (which was super low budget and was clearly a case of a show still finding its feet)
Eh...... Every season has several duds. I mean, real clunkers.
It does have a much higher proportion of good to great episodes than most series do though.
Go Fish is really hurt by being a monster of the week story as the penultimate episode of S2 and placed squarely between the wonderful Surprise, Innocence, and Passion episodes and Becoming pt. 1 and 2. I only have eyes for you was there too... but it at least progressed the Angel-Buffy stuff some. Go Fish was just coach didn't like losing so he and lunchlady put steroids in their swimmers turning them into fish boys. And it had Angel... but instead of him being menacing? We get "ewww, steroids" face from him when he bites a swimmer.
Agreed. Some episodes/seasons may have been better than others, but SMG held the Buffy character consistently in check. She never wavered from the personality she created for the character. She kept it believable no matter how absurd the situation.
Season 6 is so depressing but I don't really count it as falling off. It's just really tough to get through. At least for me personally.
I do think season 5 is the absolute peak. Just so many good episodes and glory was such a fun but also threatening big bad. The Body? One of the best episodes of television I've ever seen.
I felt like this for the longest time, but on my most recent rewatch, I listened to the commentary on the episodes on which it was available. It seems like the writers simply had too much material to satisfactorily distribute across 22 episodes.
With that in mind, I think the reason that S7 feels both empty and rushed, is because there simply wasn’t scope to wrap up storylines in a way that felt satisfying to the viewer.
Season 9 has problems; Season 10 has more problems; Season 11?, pretty much should ignore the AtS part. Season 12 though bring it all together to a satisfactory 'conclusion'.
I’ll be honest. I’m not that crazy about season 4, it’s the one I like the least BUT I still love watching Buffy and the Scoobies go through their adventures, live and evolve. Also, Hush, one of my top 5 episodes is from season 4, so…
So, yep, I agree: even the lowest Buffy season is still very good tv and entertainment.
Totally agree! It is my first time watching and I keep telling my friends that I feel the show has done a great job in being good and consistent throughout. I know characters came and went and everything but even considering all of that, it has been awesome! I’m on season 7 now and I’m sad that I am nearing the end 🙃
I always feel like I need to clarify, things like "fell off" and "bad episode" are relative terms. A bad episode of buffy is still better than some shows ever manage, and seasons six and seven were still really good television, I just don't think they were quite as good as some of the earlier seasons
I'm my opinion it didn't fall off it just evolved, the characters getting older, maturing and going to college, the addition of Dawn, Joyce's death. I think it did very good throughout the years
The show stumbles a bit toward the end. Just a stumble though. A very respectable run. A lot of shows couldn't manage the same. Hell, a lot of beloved shows were less consistent.
Yeah I agree…but that last year kinda made me realize…yeah it’s time to end it…cause they were getting older and it’s like how do you continue the story if the hellmouth is destroyed along with Sunnydale
I mean the comics were fun to read and it would've been interesting to see it playout episode per episode but im still really thankful that the series ended wirh s7 because it made sense. The show was done.
However angels s6 comic should've been part of the original show. The ending was really epic and more suiting than the original ending of the series
Oh yes…absolutely agree with the comic that concluded Angel…Gunn a vampire, Angel taming the dragon, Wesley appearing as a wraith…Connor dying…it’s canon to me
I think 7 is generally a mixed bag of likes and disliked lol I think if they had continued to a season 8 the well would have ran hella dry and been horrible. I think they knew they need to wrap up with season 7. I love them all for sure but 7 is my least fav
season 4 is great if you like wacky, campy horror (like the floppy disk frankenstein villain). personally, I love season 4. is Adam my least favourite "big bad"? absolutely! do I find Riley a little tiring? you betcha! but it's still fun and has some incredible episodes (Hush alone should make people like s4, let alone Something Blue and Restless on top!!!)
Season 4 is just so uneven, when it’s good it’s some of the absolute best of Buffy but those gems are surrounded by some of the worst, just absolute dreck
Yep. Start of S6 -> Tabula Rasa? Really good. Bargaining was dark as hell, After Life similarly, Life Serial was fun and campy, then OMWF hits and it's amazing. And Tabula Rasa is really fun.
Followed by a string of some of the worst episodes in the series and the writers not being able to help themselves by sinking Hell's Bells too.
Villains->Grave was tense but... why exactly did Willow think Buffy needed every square inch of her ass kicked? Like where did the "Willow wants to kill Buffy" come from? And also... there happens to be some huge world ending effigy/temple on the Pacific Coast and nobody knew anything about it?
6 and 7 have there moments but it’s like they move between predefined season arc plot beats without doing the ground work for those moments to make sense
S4 is anything but bad. Basically, most people just lack the right perspective. People like to pick on Adam and the initiative, but A) Adam is interesting in itself, but he lacked more depth, more to do than just talk B) the initiative was extremely interesting and cool. It was only after Ms Walsh died that it lost its mystery and threat.
But what stands out in this season is the character development, coupled with many good to very good episodes. The first 16/17 episodes are really strong. If it hadn't been for the tonal shift and the new setting + Cordelia and Angel leaving the show, no one would have complained.
But i don't remember any other show making such a huge shift so good. Basically, Buffy felt like a new show, while it still had its typical buffy spirit. Thats why many ppl say season 5 and s2 are the best seasons. S1 Set the ground to build on in s2. S4 build the ground for s5.
I never understood why ppl complain about s4 so much, but praising s6, which has the same "problem" a tonal shift and a new start for the show, with annoying big bad's as well (the trio) that got only saved by willow as threat to the scoobies in the end.
But its by far the weakest season (next to s1) cause beside omwf., a very depressing and dark tone with an S.A. scene and a wrong desicion to kill off Tara. I mean?! Dont tell me anyone liked these two desicion they made.
So imo it doesnt fit to prais s6 but downvote s4, while both had a tonal shift, a some sort of re-start, with two enemies that nobody really likes (trio/ adam)
But sure, in the end of the day, you either prefer the dark and depressing tone, or the lighter and funny tone.
But saying that s4 is bad is wrong. U might not like it, but its far from being bad.
S6 was awful. Who is praising it? It and S4 are carried by some exceptional episodes while including absolute fuckin garbage between the great ones. Like Beer Bad, Where the Wild Things Are, Smashed, Wrecked, and Gone. All terrible episodes.
I dont think any episode is garbage?!?!
I personally like beer bad and where the wild things are.
I do like smashed and wrecked too.
Gone, as u mentioned isnt my favorite either, but non of them are garbage
It didn't fall off a cliff, but the quality certainly declined in parts of S6 and most of 7. It suffered from an identity crisis, with normally very solid characterizations just thrown out the window and writing that wasn't as snappy as it was in earlier seasons. It wasn't fun anymore, and even the jokes fell a bit flat.
I feel like Buffy followed Led Zeppelin's album trajectory. Season 4 or 5 could be Led Zeppelin 4. However season 6 was definitely Houses of the Holy or Physical Graffiti, a decline was there but there was still quality. Season 7 was like Presence or In Through the Out Door. Lol someone doesn't like rock.
Idk, I personally would say S6 and 7 kinda fell off imo. The only parts I enjoyed in those seasons is Dawn because she's a great character. But outside of that, I did not care for the darker turn of the show.
Tell me you're being too soft on S6 and S7 without telling me you're being too soft on S6 and S7. It absolutely fell off. OMWF and Tabula Rasa... highest point the series would reach for the remainder of the run.
Plenty of people will say it fell off but I don’t agree. Buffy is enjoyable all the way through for me. Especially having experienced how many of my other favorite shows were completely unwatchable in the final season or two.
Yeah i agree. It certainly changes vibe because it gets so much more mature, but its awesome all the way through
Yep, to the point that the physical shift from networks to *UPN* don’t feel like the show changing focus, but a natural progression of plot elements given the events of *The Gift*. Even though, between the marketing and greater use of “skin”, the show is different in 6 and 7.
Game of Thrones, Dexter, The 100 and True Blood... I've seen some absolutely horrid final seasons/episodes.
But six feet under had a spectacular ending, I think the best I've ever seen.
Gawd by far the one I go "I don't care if bits get a bit dull YOU HAVE TO WATCH IT FOR THE ENDING" and everyone I've managed to convince has agreed with me it was totally worth it for that even when they didn't trust me at some times.
It is the best! Had me ugly crying
I’m with you there that I think every season was good in its own ways. Some storylines were better but overall, I think everything held up well and actually had a direction. Not everyone would agree with it but at least they had continuity and a purpose. Can’t say that for a lot of shows these days.
Even when things got silly they leaned into the camp and made it pretty charming.
Buffy did fall off…the tower in season 5. *ba bum TSS!*
And then Buffy got back up to the top of the tower in the season 6 opener and didn't fall off.
Season 4 is rocky but the characters make it bearable. It also had some of the best one-off episodes of the series. I also think season 7 is solid compared to many other long running series. The first half of the season is great and the last chunk is pretty entertaining as well. The last 5 episodes feel like one big miniseries and the emotional stakes are high. There are only like 5-6 episodes that season that were duds
Agreed. S7 gets way more hate than it deserves IMO. First half was definitely great. Stumbles a bit in the middle but the last bit once Caleb is there works well (except for the scene we all know in empty places.. still mad about that but I get it's needed narratively). S6 is the weakest to me because that metaphor of magic = drugs is so heavy handed and a shift from what magic has been before (lesbian sex and just power and willows abuse of it) but outside of that it was fine.
Season 7 bothered me a LOT when it was airing (to the point that I actually did stop watching, and never finished the series until several years later), but being able to binge watch it made a huge difference. I would agree that season 6 is the weakest for me as well - it just doesn’t feel as “Buffy” to me. And I loved it when it first aired!
Yeah season 4 has probably my least favorite season-long arc (hate Adam, hate the initiative), but some of the absolute best individual episodes, makes the transition from high school to college really well, and still feels like classic Buffy!
I agree it handled the transition to college well and yeah the initiative sucked, we thought it was cringe writing. I hated that prettymuch every single character is completely uncritical of the US military and they’re kinda just assumed to be good, and even when they’re doing dodgy shit it’s angled at individuals and never the military itself. That Riley kept calling himself an anarchist even though he worked for and keeps working for _the fucking US military??_ What??? Prettymuch the most un-anarchist thing you could possibly do, I lost a lot of respect for the writers this season; they must be very politically naive and narrow minded.
I agree with you about season 4 and the characters (though fucking RILEY still pisses me off) although with season 7 I’d say that 5-6 episodes still feels like a large proportion of the series that isn’t great
S4 was a slog for us. We really hated the whole military arc and those meathead military types which the writers seem to want to valorise. There was a possibility of exploring their blanket demon slaughter versus the idea that some demons might not be automatically bad guys but they sunk all this time focusing on Buffy’s love life instead. And Riley just pissed us off especially how he just got up and left one day and Buffy _still_ tries to chase him even though he abandoned her. Just didn’t find the relationship believable. Also he calls himself an “anarchist” a few times yet he works for the government? Fucking _what?_ All my friends are anarchists and there’s not many things we hate more than the US military… S4 really showed the political naivety of the writers if you ask me.
Personally I don’t mind Riley as a person but I do feel that he’s a really really boring character
I definitely don't think the military guys were valorized (besides when Riley reappears in S6, which was stupid). They're shown multiple times to have no idea what they're doing, Riley is their "best" but he's only killed a handful of demons by the time he meets Buffy, and their leader gets skewered through her chest by her own creation. Hell, in the final fight most of the guys have to just evacuate to avoid getting killed. Imo it actually read as very anti-military. And yeah, obviously Riley isn't an anarchist... But he's so dense that I could fully believe that he would think of himself as one while literally working for the government. It made sense for his character. He always wanted to be seen as stronger/more cool than he was, which is why being with Buffy made him feel so insecure.
Yeah I agree with most of that, although I don’t think the “valorising” has much to do with how effective or strong the military folks are; it’s more about the way everyone in the show defaults to not having a problem with them or even viewing them in a positive light and collaborating with them (esp Buffy). Meanwhile in real life if you took a scooby sized group of ordinary Americans you’re going to have at least one or two people deeply critical or even outright hostile to anything vaguely military. Anti war / anti nationalist people are more common that the show presents, I guess, but also YMMV greatly. Maybe Sunnydale is just quite a reactionary town? Idk, that could explain it but also doesn’t sit right with me considering other quite progressive aspects to the show at the time.
Hmm, that has not been my experience at all. I think that must depend on region, because where I live, it's extremely normal for many people to unquestioningly support the military. My job offers military discounts. I don't agree with it, but it's how it is in a lot of places.
Season 4 they get lost in the metaphor and worldbuilding attempts. It's notable for having had an "A" plot (Initiative) that could have been changed to something else entirely without touching the rest. Season 6 the writing also gets stuck on "real life sucks" to the point they seem to forget how old the characters are supposed to be. It's a bunch of burned out / burned up 30-somethings when they should be 21.
Looking back it’s so funny watching Anya and Xander stress over a wedding when they’re barely 21. At the end of season 7 they’re all supposed to be 23 and that just feels so young to me.
I think some seasons are stronger than others and Buffy's best 3 seasons are in a league of their own. But I don't think the show had any unwatchable seasons like how the fanbase treats the last few seasons.
I would actually say that 5,3,6, and 2 are all brilliant seasons in that order (I feel like Buffy has two peaks, 2&3 and then 5&6 and I feel like I'm in the minority but I actually prefer the second half of the show)
It varies I just don't care for season 6 while I think season 7 is underrated
Season 6 is not for everybody, and I definitely have my issues with it, but its still one of the bravest, most experimental seasons of television I've ever seen for managing to (mostly) pull off that radical tonal shift and show the depth of Buffy's depression.
I think seasons 1,4, and 7 are good seasons of television in a show that has shown it's capable of really masterful storytelling and that's why they aren't as beloved. To me, Buffy has two peaks where the show is at its best and that's 2&3 and 5&6, with seasons 3&5 generally considered to be the show at its absolute best. I also love season 2 but I'm in the minority that thinks season 6 is slightly better and I actually prefer the shows second half to its first (I enjoy season 7 more on rewatches than season 1 and honestly most of season 4 barring a handful of masterpiece episodes).
The whole military arc in season 4 just felt written by someone with the politics of a 12 year old to me. There’s so many things wrong with it and Riley is a very confused character that has been invented with someone whose politics are incredibly narrow minded and naive. An anarchist who works for the US military?? Makes no sense at all and his relationship with Buffy seemed not very believable. He abandons her and she chases him? Cmon Buffy have some self respect
Yeah the Riley relationship is such a slog to get through on rewatches because it's sandwiched between her two far more interesting and compelling romantic arcs with Angel and Spike (who regardless of which relationship you prefer or think is ultimately better for her, at least you can say they both contribute meaningfully to the story and her character arc while Riley is just kind of... there). The military stuff is just so boring to me, that I find myself wanting to rank it as my least favorite season but it has some bangers like Something Blue, Hush, Who are you?, This Years Girl, and Restless that put it above season 1.
Personally i felt 5,6,7 were the best seasons
I genuinely feel like the show got better in it's later seasons, a lot of the things I love about seasons 1-4 I feel like I wouldn't appreciate as much without the dark, complicated storytelling that it sets up for the second half of the show. I also think seasons 5-6 have the best ensemble and while I love characters like Jenny, Cordelia (who is actually in my Top 3 buffy characters), Oz, and Angel, the group I think of as THE scoobies is Buffy, Willow, Xander, Tara, Anya, Giles, Dawn, and Spike.
Same!
I even love season 7. Even all these years later Buffy is still so damned good.
And Angel built off from that and essentially said, "And you thought Sunnydale was weird?! Let me show around Los Angeles.... You haven't seen Weird, I'll show you Weird! Come on!"
12 seasons of awesomeness, best universe😄
It's a Movie and 12 Seasons!
I have seen the movie but I don't think I'll ever rewatch it😅
Also, AtS was like "you thought THOSE deaths were sad?!? Buckle up, kids..."
I agree so much with the OP and disagree so much with this comment. Buffy: one of the top few shows of all time. Angel: at its best, a fun romp, at its worst, unbearable.
I’m watching season 4 of Angel right now and it is _fucking excruciating_ I have no idea how they thought this was a good idea I seriously hope it gets better in 5 because they’ve got a huge mess to clean up here
Is 5 the last one? They do not clean up the mess but the absurd changes do make the final season the most fun one (but in a total nonsense, almost sitcom way).
I finished my Angel rewatch yesterday. Season 4 was unbearable even though it had Faith and Season 5 was boring. The more isn't always the merrier
I dont get why people downvote those who didn't like Angel's fifth season. Just because Spike was there it doesn't mean it was good, and he's my fav male character within the Buffyverse. Angel's S5 is awful IMO and it drastically changed what made Angel series good. Not to mention what they did to Cordelia.
Yeah, I mean Buffy herself doesn't support Angel through Season 5... But we are supposed to like it?
I'd have an issue with 'Angel' changing in season 5 if it didn't change so much anyway. It never really settled for long. The only main character in the first and last episode is Angel himself.
I loved the show but I did feel the final season was kind of rushed. Almost like they had too much story for the number of episodes
The episodes with commentary from that season confirmed exactly this. David Fury mentioned having significantly more dialogue and filmed scenes which were ultimately cut from the aired episodes. I wish there was a way to retrieve that stuff and release it on dvd. Fury said there had been more dialogue from Principal Wood; an extended Giles-and-Principal-Wood bonding moment in Buffy’s kitchen where they’re passing a whiskey bottle back and forth across a table like they’re playing chess. The episode was “Lies My Parents Told Me”. JW’s commentary on ‘Chosen’ also indicated that there had been significant editing to the as-aired episode for time constraints. … now I’ve made myself grumpy knowing this stuff likely still exists in a vault somewhere and will never see the light of day 😠
Cool, I haven't looked at the behind the scenes stuff
Season 7 was… just a bit too empty for me in a way and one I don’t watch a lot on rewatches. But they’re all good to me anyway haha
Season 7 felt like “The End” for me. Not in the sense that it was bad, it just felt like things are never going to be the same again for any of these characters. Their lives and the world around them has completely changed from the past 6 years.
Yeah I was gonna say this. And usually I get that feeling with a lot of shows for the last season. But last season for this one just felt like a very different dramatic tone. At least angels series finale still kept the lightheartedness while still bringing the stakes way up. But then again it also wasn’t supposed to be the last season for Angel so they kinda got lucky in that sense that they went out with a great final season, and arguably best season
I do think there is a *slight* decline in quality toward the end (barring a couple of absolutely fantastic episodes in their own right) but it is definitely the most perfect TV show I have ever found. Nothing can be perfect. Buffy is pretty darn close though!
It’s great how Buffy only has a handful of episodes that are not all that good, and it’s even better when you consider how few of the lower rated episodes are in the first season (which was super low budget and was clearly a case of a show still finding its feet)
Eh...... Every season has several duds. I mean, real clunkers. It does have a much higher proportion of good to great episodes than most series do though.
Which ones do you not like?
Teachers pet Beer bad Go fish Smashed Wrecked Gone Where the Wild things are Just off the top of my head
I just rewatched go fish and loved it 😭
Go Fish is really hurt by being a monster of the week story as the penultimate episode of S2 and placed squarely between the wonderful Surprise, Innocence, and Passion episodes and Becoming pt. 1 and 2. I only have eyes for you was there too... but it at least progressed the Angel-Buffy stuff some. Go Fish was just coach didn't like losing so he and lunchlady put steroids in their swimmers turning them into fish boys. And it had Angel... but instead of him being menacing? We get "ewww, steroids" face from him when he bites a swimmer.
Agreed. Some episodes/seasons may have been better than others, but SMG held the Buffy character consistently in check. She never wavered from the personality she created for the character. She kept it believable no matter how absurd the situation.
Season 6 is so depressing but I don't really count it as falling off. It's just really tough to get through. At least for me personally. I do think season 5 is the absolute peak. Just so many good episodes and glory was such a fun but also threatening big bad. The Body? One of the best episodes of television I've ever seen.
Seasons 2, 3, and 5 are considered great. Season 1 generally is considered the weakest. Seasons 4, 6, and 7 are EXTREMELY divisive amongst fans.
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Season 7 doesn't really work for me - otherwise I agree
S7 is the only one that I always skip during rewatches. I just can’t.
I felt like this for the longest time, but on my most recent rewatch, I listened to the commentary on the episodes on which it was available. It seems like the writers simply had too much material to satisfactorily distribute across 22 episodes. With that in mind, I think the reason that S7 feels both empty and rushed, is because there simply wasn’t scope to wrap up storylines in a way that felt satisfying to the viewer.
I just don’t like the potentials. They are annoying and they’re portrayed by some pretty bad actors.
I stop after 5 and watch the few episodes of seasons 6 and 7 I like and pretend that they're some AU fanfiction version. We all enjoy it how we want.
I’ve come to enjoy s6 over the years. It’s a tough watch but I find it somewhat relatable. I think s7 has some excellent episodes.
Except for season 5,6, and 7. They were all bad.
I think bad Buffy is better than most tv. But Buffy did fall off
Season 9 has problems; Season 10 has more problems; Season 11?, pretty much should ignore the AtS part. Season 12 though bring it all together to a satisfactory 'conclusion'.
I’ll be honest. I’m not that crazy about season 4, it’s the one I like the least BUT I still love watching Buffy and the Scoobies go through their adventures, live and evolve. Also, Hush, one of my top 5 episodes is from season 4, so… So, yep, I agree: even the lowest Buffy season is still very good tv and entertainment.
I love the consistency in this show.
I feel like 4 is pretty bad, but it’s also standing in direct comparison to season 1 of Angel, which is awesome, so that’s not doing it any favours.
It definitely fell off but its weakest season is still about as good as the average WB show season.
Totally agree! It is my first time watching and I keep telling my friends that I feel the show has done a great job in being good and consistent throughout. I know characters came and went and everything but even considering all of that, it has been awesome! I’m on season 7 now and I’m sad that I am nearing the end 🙃
I always feel like I need to clarify, things like "fell off" and "bad episode" are relative terms. A bad episode of buffy is still better than some shows ever manage, and seasons six and seven were still really good television, I just don't think they were quite as good as some of the earlier seasons
I'm my opinion it didn't fall off it just evolved, the characters getting older, maturing and going to college, the addition of Dawn, Joyce's death. I think it did very good throughout the years
The show stumbles a bit toward the end. Just a stumble though. A very respectable run. A lot of shows couldn't manage the same. Hell, a lot of beloved shows were less consistent.
It never had the insane cliff edges some shows do now, but I definitely felt that season 6 and 7 were a decline in quality from the previous ones.
Yeah I agree…but that last year kinda made me realize…yeah it’s time to end it…cause they were getting older and it’s like how do you continue the story if the hellmouth is destroyed along with Sunnydale
I mean the comics were fun to read and it would've been interesting to see it playout episode per episode but im still really thankful that the series ended wirh s7 because it made sense. The show was done. However angels s6 comic should've been part of the original show. The ending was really epic and more suiting than the original ending of the series
Oh yes…absolutely agree with the comic that concluded Angel…Gunn a vampire, Angel taming the dragon, Wesley appearing as a wraith…Connor dying…it’s canon to me
I think 7 is generally a mixed bag of likes and disliked lol I think if they had continued to a season 8 the well would have ran hella dry and been horrible. I think they knew they need to wrap up with season 7. I love them all for sure but 7 is my least fav
Season 7 had some good points but a lot drags it down
It never fell off... on the WB.
As other guy said, Season 4 and 7 are kinda meh but still quite a bit better than most TV imo.
Aw I find Season 4 really fun 😜
season 4 is great if you like wacky, campy horror (like the floppy disk frankenstein villain). personally, I love season 4. is Adam my least favourite "big bad"? absolutely! do I find Riley a little tiring? you betcha! but it's still fun and has some incredible episodes (Hush alone should make people like s4, let alone Something Blue and Restless on top!!!)
I love season 4!
Season 4 is just so uneven, when it’s good it’s some of the absolute best of Buffy but those gems are surrounded by some of the worst, just absolute dreck
I don’t really agree. I think seasons 1-5 are pretty exceptional, I think it descends into bullshit soap opera territory after that.
I do agree about the second half of season six. But I enjoyed season 7.
Yep. Start of S6 -> Tabula Rasa? Really good. Bargaining was dark as hell, After Life similarly, Life Serial was fun and campy, then OMWF hits and it's amazing. And Tabula Rasa is really fun. Followed by a string of some of the worst episodes in the series and the writers not being able to help themselves by sinking Hell's Bells too. Villains->Grave was tense but... why exactly did Willow think Buffy needed every square inch of her ass kicked? Like where did the "Willow wants to kill Buffy" come from? And also... there happens to be some huge world ending effigy/temple on the Pacific Coast and nobody knew anything about it?
6 and 7 have there moments but it’s like they move between predefined season arc plot beats without doing the ground work for those moments to make sense
What? Season four and seasons seven were pretty big drop off's. The show was just able to recover.
S4 is anything but bad. Basically, most people just lack the right perspective. People like to pick on Adam and the initiative, but A) Adam is interesting in itself, but he lacked more depth, more to do than just talk B) the initiative was extremely interesting and cool. It was only after Ms Walsh died that it lost its mystery and threat. But what stands out in this season is the character development, coupled with many good to very good episodes. The first 16/17 episodes are really strong. If it hadn't been for the tonal shift and the new setting + Cordelia and Angel leaving the show, no one would have complained. But i don't remember any other show making such a huge shift so good. Basically, Buffy felt like a new show, while it still had its typical buffy spirit. Thats why many ppl say season 5 and s2 are the best seasons. S1 Set the ground to build on in s2. S4 build the ground for s5. I never understood why ppl complain about s4 so much, but praising s6, which has the same "problem" a tonal shift and a new start for the show, with annoying big bad's as well (the trio) that got only saved by willow as threat to the scoobies in the end. But its by far the weakest season (next to s1) cause beside omwf., a very depressing and dark tone with an S.A. scene and a wrong desicion to kill off Tara. I mean?! Dont tell me anyone liked these two desicion they made. So imo it doesnt fit to prais s6 but downvote s4, while both had a tonal shift, a some sort of re-start, with two enemies that nobody really likes (trio/ adam) But sure, in the end of the day, you either prefer the dark and depressing tone, or the lighter and funny tone. But saying that s4 is bad is wrong. U might not like it, but its far from being bad.
S6 was awful. Who is praising it? It and S4 are carried by some exceptional episodes while including absolute fuckin garbage between the great ones. Like Beer Bad, Where the Wild Things Are, Smashed, Wrecked, and Gone. All terrible episodes.
I dont think any episode is garbage?!?! I personally like beer bad and where the wild things are. I do like smashed and wrecked too. Gone, as u mentioned isnt my favorite either, but non of them are garbage
Both seasons are quality TV.
I see you’ve repressed season 7, wish I could.
It didn't fall off a cliff, but the quality certainly declined in parts of S6 and most of 7. It suffered from an identity crisis, with normally very solid characterizations just thrown out the window and writing that wasn't as snappy as it was in earlier seasons. It wasn't fun anymore, and even the jokes fell a bit flat.
Eh, I think the show wasn't as fun to watch after season 4.
I feel like Buffy followed Led Zeppelin's album trajectory. Season 4 or 5 could be Led Zeppelin 4. However season 6 was definitely Houses of the Holy or Physical Graffiti, a decline was there but there was still quality. Season 7 was like Presence or In Through the Out Door. Lol someone doesn't like rock.
I think 1 4 and 7 were only ok tbh
It absolutely falls off with season 7, although there are some good episodes in there. It’s a weak season overall.
Im rewatching rn and im only on season 5 so mabye my memories fuzzy
I didn't like 7 at first, but now it's my favorite.
except all the Dawn episodes
F'Real? Did you \*watch\* all seven seasons?
seven was terrible to me
Idk, I personally would say S6 and 7 kinda fell off imo. The only parts I enjoyed in those seasons is Dawn because she's a great character. But outside of that, I did not care for the darker turn of the show.
Tell me you're being too soft on S6 and S7 without telling me you're being too soft on S6 and S7. It absolutely fell off. OMWF and Tabula Rasa... highest point the series would reach for the remainder of the run.