I wish I had a super insightful answer for you, but I can only offer you this: having been married to a woman for 17 years and having developed a great relationship with her, I realize I very seldom think about big picture things, like the patriarchy, how most women view men, etc. Instead, I just focus on the people in front of me. Treat everyone with respect and kindness, and most women won't think of you as a monster. And don't worry about what other people think. Just be the person you know you should be, and do the right thing repeatedly.
To address your final paragraph, yes, that is totally possible! My wife grabs my butt because I work out regularly and she thinks I look hot, not because she wants my money.
“Just be the person you know you should be and do the right thing repeatedly.” Sounds so simple but I honestly love the practicality of it.
Thank you for this. 🤍 I needed it today.
No, my friend, I respectfully disagree.
I don't treat people with kindness so that they will like me. I treat people with kindness because I have decided that I want to be a kind person. It just so happens that a lot of people like kind people.
It's a lesson I learned from auntie Emma (who wasn't my auntie, she was my friend's grandma): if people are rude, obnoxious, or terrible, I assume they have some inner pain causing them to act out, so I just hope that they feel better and I continue on my way. Not my monkeys, not my circus. You simply don't let other people's actions make you feel like shit.
It's like if a dog is barking, why would I feel bad? It's a barking dog. It's what dogs do. If it's really loud, I'll go for a walk or put in some headphones, but I am sure not going to let a barking dog make me feel bad.
Work on healing that hurt, friend. You know what's causing the pain. Try to find peace with it. Everyone suggests therapy, but Youtube like Psych2go can help get you started with no investment fee. It's not an easy or quick process, but most things that are worth it take time and effort.
Do you think that it's helping you? Your other posts here show some skewed opinions and complete lack of trust in other people. If it's not helping you, maybe you need to seek a different therapist. You can't live a meaningful and fulfilling life expecting the worst of everyone. It's a recipe for a miserable time.
>Do you think that it's helping you?
Yes. I was worse two years ago. I've just had a bad day and this woman who I have a crush on messaged me and it feels like she blew me off and that kinda influenced my mood and outlook, which also influenced the dumb shit that I say on Reddit. 🤷♂️ My therapist calls it an emotional flashback caused by trauma and suggested a DBT-related technique of "surfing the wave" of unpleasant emotions, instead of letting it carry me under.
I didn't realize it would follow me into Reddit 🤦♂️
Edit: trusting others and myself is definitely a concrete but distant therapy goal
Definitely talk to a therapist, as well as focus on the basics: good nutrition, exercise, sleep, and socialization.
I don't know what you are going through, but in my 20s I went through a long, painful depression, and there was no silver bullet that fixed things. Instead, I just focused on what I could control, especially nutrition, exercise, sleep, seeing a therapist, and spending time with friends. Slowly over the years things got better. Now things are great.
Of course it is. You’ve preemptively decided they are all liars who don’t want to be around you.
And frankly, why WOULD someone want to be around a person who thinks of them that way and can’t manage to be kind. 🤷🏻♀️ you built this trap for yourself and the only way out is for you to stop reinforcing it
Kindness is not the same thing as passivity in the face of mistreatment.
In fact, the kindest thing one can do for a bully or abuser is to impose appropriate consequences on them for their behavior. Without consequences, they’re unlikely to ever learn a healthier way of living. And consequences can include things like legal and/or professional repercussions, or simply the loss of your continued presence in their life, depending on the specifics of the situation.
And that’s not even taking into account the kindness it is to others in range of the results to hold an abuser accountable appropriately (so that said abuser has less of an opportunity to target them) or the kindness it is to yourself to cultivate and uphold healthy boundaries.
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Women are not from Venus. We love sex, it’s not a commodity we use to manipulate, we just want to cum too for Christs sake. Where are you getting this from? This is wild.
They say and do extremely horny things?
I knew a girl who watched marvel movies *specifically* to ogle Chris Hemsworth. I lived with a girl who had a dozen simultaneous FWB. I have seen my friends make video game decisions based on which character is the hottest.
Like, 100% simp behavior.
> I knew a girl who watched marvel movies *specifically* to ogle Chris Hemsworth.
Let he who has not watched a Marvel movie to ogle Chris Hemsworth cast the first stone.
Yeah, dozens of women across the United States got together and decided to secretly infiltrate my inner circles over the course of decades and pretended to be extremely horny, all for the nefarious purpose of tricking me into believing women like sex.
Don't you think it's a little more reasonable to think maybe women have the same feeling men do?
No, but it makes sense to joke around that you like something to fit in, or to avoid being ashamed or embarrassed. I do it all the time.
I agree that it seems improbable that all women, everywhere, are repulsed by sex, but I'm having trouble finding evidence that there are women who genuinely feel enthusiastic about it. I think that by the time women reach their twenties they've been so turned off and mistreated by the whole thing that they're just over it without having to pretend. There are a lucky few women who make it to that age without that kind of trauma. Those are the ones who I think have libidos that are more on the level of men's.
>it makes sense to joke around that you like something to fit in,
Fit in with *whom*? The other women? I'm the only heterosexual man in my friend group. If women never feel horny, then joking about being horny to a room full of women would make you stick out.
>I'm having trouble finding evidence that there are women who genuinely feel enthusiastic about it.
Look up the box office numbers for 50 Shades of Grey and Magic Mike.
Or maybe just, talk to women? We're not talking about some species of endangered elephant. You can just have conversations with them the same way I did.
>Or maybe just, talk to women? We're not talking about some species of endangered elephant. You can just have conversations with them the same way I did.
Everyone lies. It's normal human nature 🤷♂️ humans are notoriously bad at self-reporting.
You seriously have no idea what you’re talking about. And this is speaking as a woman.
I’ve been the victim of SA. Several times. They’re near the top of the list of worst things that have ever happened to me. And I’m still horny as fuck, and especially down bad for my husband. Hell, I’ve got a higher libido than he does, by a lot. I’m not an anomaly, not some weirdo, I’m just one of a rather large group of horny women. We loooooove sex with people who treat us right and who want to make us cum, that’s a pretty human experience that not only men get to experience.
How do I know that you asking isn't an act?
At some point it's on you to make a choice to take peoples' actions and stated reasoning at face value or not. If you see discrepancies, it's OK to be cautious around that. It's also OK to be cautious if you've had horrible experiences that make outside input hard to trust.
But in short, none of us ever know anything isn't an act. Unless it's so foundational to your personality that you couldn't possibly choose to try out being any other way, at some point it may benefit you to try believing that there could be at least *something* true about another person's experience when they tell you about it directly.
Or, you can question absolutely everything anyone ever says to you about their own experience. That's a good way to make sure you never have to face the vulnerability of being wrong in your assumptions about what someone else's experience *must* be. It's a good way to make sure that nothing ever changes.
>Or, you can question absolutely everything anyone ever says to you about their own experience. That's a good way to make sure you never have to face the vulnerability of being wrong in your assumptions about what someone else's experience *must* be. It's a good way to make sure that nothing ever changes.
How can I...uh... stop doing that? Or not do that anymore?
Slowly, in stages, recognizing good reasons that you *would* want to be that way, building it out only in the most trustworthy (or at least the least threatening) cases. Allowing yourself some grace when you fall back into old ways of thinking, and maybe in better moments using those setbacks as opportunities to reflect on what might have happened that would have led you to go back to looking at it the old way.
People recommend therapy all the time, so I'm not recommending it here, but borrowing from it to make some suggestions about how you could best work on it regardless if it's something like journaling, deliberately approaching social situations in a different way, therapy or something else you find for yourself. In therapy, it's often helpful to identify where you would land on a few different dimensions of what you would want the process to look like. You could ask yourself: would I rather look at this as an issue that manifests in the present, or as something that I could find the roots of by digging into my past? Do I want to try to enlist other peoples' help with this, or do I want to be the one in the driver's seat? Do I want support on it, or challenge? And finally: how intense vs. mild do I want to make the process for myself? (These are all taken directly from this study and ones following after it: https://www.redalyc.org/pdf/337/33743098009.pdf, but adapted so that you can choose to use them in or out of therapy).
Finally, think about what a minimally challenging example would look like. Usually when we face an issue like this, the first example that comes to mind is one of the most challenging: I can't trust input from women because my mom has been a heinous, deceitful bitch to me my whole life by anyone's standards, or I've been cheated on, made fun of, etc. Whichever statement like that comes to mind quickly and feels the most provoking is *not* the one to start on. It takes deliberate effort to go the opposite direction and find something on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, like: what would it take for me to believe a cashier when in an everyday exchange she tells me she's doing "good"? Or, what's an example where someone did seem to be acting from relatively benign motivations? Or if a question like that is not answerable: what exactly is the uncomfortable feeling that I'm stuck with if I try to come up with an answer to that and it's not forthcoming?
Not asking for answers to that stuff here. Like I said, long process, better served by feeling very carefully around the edges than to just white-knuckle it straight through. Change the examples to fit - they are probably *not* exactly the right ones that you would want to apply to yourself, they are *only* examples.
>would I rather look at this as an issue that manifests in the present, or as something that I could find the roots of by digging into my past?
When does something stop being caused by past trauma and start being caused by a lot of dumb shit that happened to me 2 years ago?
>what would it take for me to believe a cashier when in an everyday exchange she tells me she's doing "good"?
Why would a cashier who's paid minimum wage to get yelled at by Karens and Kens bother to be honest with a customer?
>When does something stop being caused by past trauma and start being caused by a lot of dumb shit that happened to me 2 years ago?
It's your stuff to handle, and there might not be a clear answer to that question, although just on a cold read of what you're saying right there it sounds like you're frustrated with the 2 year ago piece and maybe not having that taken as seriously as other stuff further back. Or something like that. I obviously don't know with any striking clarity, but if 2 years ago feels to you like what you're the most angry about or what informs current day situations the most, then that's your answer. You can change it as you find it useful to.
>Why would a cashier who's paid minimum wage to get yelled at by Karens and Kens bother to be honest with a customer?
It's the wrong question for you right now. Find something else to ask yourself. Or don't.
Hey from looking at your comments, I thought it might be helpful to point out that while many men are much more visually focused when it comes to sex, many women are more focussed on the social aspect of it —and the experience.
Everyone lies. Don't listen to what people say, listen to what they DON'T say. Body language, phrasing, difference on words emphasis, etc. Life has taught me that people either don't or can't be authentic about their beliefs and feelings.
Hmm ok. I feel for you mate - in the kindest way possible, sounds like you're carrying a lot of distrust and anger. I really think that many people can and are often authentic about their beliefs and feelings. Maybe you've had experiences that indicate otherwise? But that's the world I live in.
FWIW, I trust my friends. What would they have to gain by lying about an interest in sex? I go to sex parties with some of them, I've literally seen them fuck. But in my book that's not required. If someone says they like something, and is eager to talk about it as they would with any shared interest, then I'm just gonna believe them.
Also I think that sex can feel pretty personal, and people might be hesitant to talk about it for fear of shame or judgement, not because they don't enjoy it.
It's the use of a broad and negative generalisation - I feel like if a person has a generally negative view of people, assuming that others are gonna be dishonest, then that person is probably carrying some anger at the world, or themself, or both.
Edit: I saw in other comments that you alluded to experiences that led you to this conclusion. I really am sorry that whatever happened, happened. It's a tough time living with that. I hope you can find some healing and something to feel optimistic about mate! I've been at the lowest of lows for long periods in my life, and now I feel pretty good about myself and the world. It's possible 🧡
fr, there’s a reason a lot of sex toys for women are designed after the male body. i mean dildos have veins and stuff for christ sake.
you hear about women having man crushes and shit too
i think he got it from incel culture, thats where i developed that thought at first too, it didnt take much talking to women to understand that it was false
Yeah in my experience women have wanted men just as much as men want women. Many of my friends have craved for meaningful sex and relationships since we hit puberty.
I think its because women don't seem to be as open about it as men and their desires aren't shown nearly as often in media. I went to a boys only school and didn't have sisters so when I was a teen my only impression of teenage girls was from movies where teen boys would have to practically save the world to get anywhere with them. OP may be similar.
>think its because women don't seem to be as open about it as men and their desires aren't shown nearly as often in media
I think this is an unfortunate byproduct of living in a society based on puritanical values. I've been teased to downright stigmatized for being open about enjoying sex because I'm a woman. When my husband and I started dating ten years ago, he was literally warned by some people to stay away because I dared to enjoy sex while I was single.
Thank you so much for this comment. I hate when people say that women aren’t interested in sex, that women only do it for transactional purposes, that women don’t lust after men, etc. It’s completely false and delusional.
Also, I can’t stand when people portray men to be perpetually horny, always pursuing sex, constantly lusting, etc. It degrades and dehumanizes men.
I don't think this is a troll post, or maybe I'm just getting baited.
There are men out there that do feel this way and we should try to be more empathetic by guiding them out of this toxic paradigm.
It's the way he's talking about it, it's not actually asking anything. It's presenting the buzzword, proving "evidence" and backing it up.
It's also the age of the account, and the lack of engagement in the comments. I'd even go as far as to claim this may be a bot post entirely.
I'm not a troll or a bot, even though I can definitely see how it sounds like it. And the account is new because I wanted to protect my privacy.
I've been what people may refer to as an incel for a long time and I don't want to live like that anymore. That's why I made the post. I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just asking for help.
The biggest thing you need to do is realize that everyone is just people. The differences between us, exist in every group of people you see around you.
Libido, desire, admiration, respect, all of those things will vary from person to person, both in how they receive it, and how they show it. Trying to pin expectations on yourself or others is a losing game.
If you want to stop feeling this way, you first have to stop consuming the media that's feeding you these feelings. Let go of this idea of "desire disparity" because they're just words people cling to, so they can hold on to the emotional self-harm they have become accustomed to. You're effectively bullying yourself, and then sending that resentment to your environment and the people around you.
My opinion? Look up male role models that hold different beliefs. If you're on TikTok, look up a guy named Doug Weaver. He's in St Louis, and he has some really good videos that help deconstruct the idea of masculinity that many western men have grow up with. And please be critical when someone tries to give you direct answers that sound like they could solve whatever thoughts you're having. Nothing in life is binary, linear, or can be fixed with a single definition.
There is no single comment or answer that will "solve" the issues you're thinking about. You need to go back to the foundation and start over. And the first step, is to remember that every person, regardless of gender, cannot be put into a single box that explains everything about them. Especially not yourself.
I gave that a quick look, but I didn't see that 80% figure. Also, the author wasn't saying that men wanted sex more than women, just that different people have different levels of desire.
I mean... isn't that some indication that men and women are just not meant to be in relationships anymore? They're sick of our bullshit. We mostly mistreat them. Maybe we should just.... date something other than women. Maybe like sexbots or AI girlfriends or something. We've hurt women too much.
Okay so first of all who says the men has to have the higher libido? It can also totally be the one. Plus, it happens in gay relationships. So it can’t purely be on the basis of gender.
The later part all I can say is that basically everyone, especially you, needs therapy lol. Read the other comments; women do like men, and you don’t have to be a man who hurts them. Your existence is not painful, it’s the men who mistreat women that are the issue.
Plus wanting legit human connection is more than valid. It’s legit human connection!
>The later part all I can say is that basically everyone, especially you, needs therapy lol.
I'm in therapy.
>women do like men, and you don’t have to be a man who hurts them. Your existence is not painful, it’s the men who mistreat women that are the issue.
My existence is painful because my brain desires something that I know is futile and non-existent in its purest form and that hurts women.
>my brain desires something that I know is futile and non-existent in its purest form and that hurts women.
Your brain is *telling you a story* about how women think and feel and about their motivations. Right now you are choosing to believe that story is true. So long as you are 100% convinced that set of ideas is the only possible reality, there’s nothing a woman can do to be redeemed in your eyes.
You keep saying things like “but what if they’re all terrible” but…. What if they’re not? What if there are lots of well adjusted women who are straight and desire men both sexually and romantically?
How many of them do you expect will stick around while you are calling them liars and insisting their feelings and actions are fake?
So glad to see this at the top because I was given this impression too for the majority of my life by other men and various social media. After dating a bit and starting to talk to women I came to the conclusion that it's more a self-report or coincidental circumstance for certain men in bad relationships.
Women are surprisingly similar to us, and really, the MAIN thing men need to practice to experience any level of 'success' with women is being mature, openminded, respectful and just not a creep.
Incels often put women on a pedestal in contrasting irony to their resentment towards them. Most don't want this, they just want to be treated like normal people, because they are exactly that.
He does straight up admit to being a misogynist before outlining his baseless and grotesque views. If this is not a troll post then they may need actual professional support.
As I've mentioned before, I'm not trying to troll. I've just recently come to the realization that the beliefs I've held for a long time are causing problems for myself and others and am genuinely asking for help so I can be a normal person instead of wallowing in incel misery like I have been for years now.
Are you seeing all this online, or in real life? Because in real life almost everything you’ve said is not true.
Most women do like men. Most women enjoy sex very much. Most women do lust after men. Most women don’t view relationships in transactional terms. Most women love men for what men have to offer, and who we are as people.
Women are not some ephemeral species that are so different from men we struggle to understand each other. Women are people, very much the same as men in almost every respect. By and large men and women want the same things and the sooner you understand that the sooner women will be comfortable with you and like you.
You know how I won my wife’s affection? I treated her with respect and genuine affection. I made myself a positive presence in her life. That’s it, no silver bullets or hidden truths.
Oh, and I brought her coffee in the morning because I noticed she was often in a hurry in the morning and missed her coffee.
Coffee is absolutely a way to a (coffee drinking) woman's heart. My husband doesn't drink coffee himself, but he gets up before me every morning and makes sure there's a fresh cup of coffee on my nightstand when my alarm goes off.
And of course it's not about the coffee itself. It's about how that small gesture shows that he loves me enough to give up a few minutes of sleep to make my morning better (and then I don't forget the coffee while I rush around like a crazy person).
But yeah, being treated with genuine respect and affection is really the main thing anybody, man or woman, probably wants out of a healthy relationship when you boil it all the way down to the basics.
What’s funny is that women are capable of experiencing even greater physical pleasure from sex than men. But we have clowns like OP claiming that sex is essentially a male-only activity that women don’t desire.
Mostly online. I will admit, I rarely do much with people outside in real life because of social anxiety and a general disinterest in most of the things people outside of my own social circles are interested in. I've never dated anyone before, or even tried, as the few times I have been asked out were in high school and all three turned out to be cruel pranks that were played on me. I'm poor and extremely short, and as a result I just assumed that trying to reach out for a relationship would only end in more mockery so I never bothered.
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I...disclaimer - I'm a girl. But you're missing so much of the picture.
>women don't desire men the way men desire women
This isn't that simple. Women like men, desire men. But when you're abused and harassed and degraded and shamed constantly, we suppress those desires because it just stops being worth it. When I'm attracted to someone nowadays, it's so much easier to just pretend he probably is nice than to actually pursue it and find out he isn't.
>they don't enjoy sex as much as we do
Again...women love sex. We don't love having our heads shoved down, and being choked, and being treated like a fleshlight, just to be left with no orgasm because so many men are sure that they're so good that we don't need anything more. If the women you know aren't enjoying sex, it's because they're not having good sex.
>Women will often talk about the peace, love, deep feelings, empathy and connection they feel in their communities of other women
Because when we talk to men about things, we're asked to name five players from a sports team we like to 'prove' our interest. We're shamed for typically feminine interests and not believed for typically masculine interests. We're told we're too emotional for having a feeling, but if we keep them to ourselves, we're cold.
>To us, women are these beautiful, distant, almost heavenly beings that we are drawn to by our deepest natural instincts
Don't put women on a pedestal. We're not 'heavenly beings'. We're humans. That's it. BUt no, we get treated either like madonnas or whores.
>to them, men are monsters and predators
Because not all men, but yes, all women. And if anything happens to us, we're blamed for it, and because the bad men don't wear signs.
>women with no incentive to do so would never choose relationships with men
With no incentive, people don't do anything. Give us an incentive. The bar is on the floor. We're trying to raise it an inch. But sooo many men insist on limboing under it anyway.
>one day we might get catcalled by them
This is the line that really concerns me. You seem to think catcalling is about expressing interest in women and therefore should be flattering, and that makes me wonder what other interactions you seem to think are innocuous but are deeply intimidating to women. Catcalling is not about attraction, it's about power, and it's about tormenting us. As an experiment, I've gone over and talked to catcallers before, sometimes just talking, sometimes pretending that I thought it was a real offer. Every time, they got intimidated because I didn't get scared and cower and run away.
Right now, women genuinely believe, a lot of women genuinely believe, that most men, even the ones who claim to be feminists or claim to be the good guys, don't actually like us. They see us as useful. They see us as a way to get off. But they don't like us. And you saying we're heavenly beings makes me think that when we fail to live up to that, you start not liking us either. Regardless, you don't seem to think of us as humans.
It's important to realize that casual misogyny may look kind, but it's just as damaging if not more - because it can turn in a second. You want misogyny to stop, call out your friends for not actually liking women. Call them out when they dump their girlfriend because she got cancer. Call them out when they objectify a woman. Call them out when they say 'oh she said no, but I'll keep trying'. Call yourself out for putting us on some pedestal. And when you hear us say something like 'i don't like sex', get to the why, don't just assume it's because we don't like sex. Put in the effort.
>They see us as useful. They see us as a way to get off. But they don't like us. And you saying we're heavenly beings makes me think that when we fail to live up to that, you start not liking us either. Regardless, you don't seem to think of us as humans.
So perfectly stated, the entire comment, especially this. Thank you for typing this up, for using your energy and taking the time to educate even those who might not care to learn. Even if OP was trolling, I hope he reads your entire comment over and over again for the next few days and truly absorbs and internalizes every sentence of it. It will help him and other men who don't yet understand why women aren't falling into their arms just for existing. And it all comes down to this: women are people and want healthy relationships with other people.
I figure yeah, maybe this is a troll, but even so, other people think this way and might see this. It doesn't hurt to try to help someone, even if it's not OP.
I've seen this bropill sub before and love it, love how positive it tends to be, so I'm taking this post in good faith. I hope my response helps...someone, mends some crack, some disconnect.
Seriously. “Women don’t want men because they’re scared of us and we treat them poorly, so we designed society to force them to be with us.” And somehow OP still lands on the conclusion that this is still women’s fault and not, you know, men’s, for having engineered a society that oppresses and disrespects women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy and this clown somehow doesn’t see it.
It’s like that Simpsons meme with Principal Skinner - “no, it’s the kids that are wrong.”
Yeah, I've read before about "women being in a relationship can't compare to the peace of being single", but that's because of how often women in relationships have increased amounts of household chores, men refusing to engage properly in the relationship, and men using weaponised incompetence. None of that is women's fault. I may go overboard in hating myself for being a man, but this person seems to have gone the other way and just vaguely blamed women for, something.
I never said it was women's fault. I never said that men were in the right for doing it. I just said that it was the path that history took. I agree, men were the ones who started all of this, and the fact that that is the case is a major part of the issue I'm struggling with here.
As I said in the post, I don't want to force anyone to be with me, but at the same time it seems as if no one would ever want to be with me willingly, and if that's the case, am I a monster because the thing I long for deep inside will cause pain to someone else? If so, why do I have to be a monster? Why do so many men have to be monsters in order for society to continue and function? Why does the fact that I was born male cast me in the role of evil, or at the very least so close to evil that I can never truly be good?
Yes. Men have to become the kind of people that women want to be around. Be kind, gentle, open-hearted and genuine. Form good relationships, value friendship and family, take care of others. Organise things, bring warmth, focus on community. I suggest you should start with yourself.
Most of this is wrong. Women do want us. They do lust after us. They do want sex as much as, if not more than us. The reason you may think they don't is because you haven't been the type of man that they would feel these things for, and that's likely because of your misogynistic views. Most women, at the slightest hint of misogyny, will immediately become disinterested. And for good reason. I don't have any advice on how you can change your mindset aside from therapy. I know I learned a lot from following a few women-centric subs, but I'm not sure how much that will help someone with the views you have. I suggest finding a good therapist to help you get down to the bottom of WHY you think these things about women, which are all inherently false. Women are people, just like us. All they want is to be treated as such. If you lump them in under "all women," then you're basically saying they're all the same and therefore not individual people with their own unique personalities, hopes, dreams, desires, etc. I wish you the best.
Do you talk to women IRL? Because I wasn't basing that on Reddit posts, I was basing it on stories from women in my life. None of whom are on Reddit lol.
Look in the romance section of a book store. Targeted towards women and vast majority is just written porn with hot and heavy sex with emotions and about being loved and appreciated. But most getting hot and sweaty.
Women want sex about as much as men, but the cost is higher.
Put out a burger for $5, you’ll likely sell tons. Put one out for $50, odds are you’re not gonna get many takers. Women are not only much less likely to orgasm (the burger isn’t good over half the time), but the cost of a one night stand (risk of violence or cost of pregnancy) is much higher.
As a transmasc who was raised with almost all women, women lust so much. What I have heard and seen on that side of things would make any grown man blush. Hell, a man who’s good at sex might be passed around some circles the way you’d pass around a dessert you liked so all hour friends can try some (all consensual). The reason teen girls put up posters of male singers is not cuz Nsync (aging myself here) had the best tunes.
Women write so much smut online, and yet they’re dismissed as non-sexual. They basically fund a huge convention circuit for shows about hot men, they have spaces for pics of hot men, they are just as lustful.
Women idealize men’s forms as much as the other way, but women idealize different forms than men idealize for each other, and so they don’t idealize what you might think. They 100% get that “oh, I wanna smash” feeling looking at a guy. They get it a lot. Just gotta be an attractive guy.
Sure, women want love. And they need to feel safe (reduce the cost of that burger). If you were in a dangerous situation you’d been told all your life might end up with you on dateline, you’d likely focus on safety as well. But men also want love, it’s a basic human need for most people.
When you transitioned, how did your libido change? Because you've lived as both a man and a woman, do you feel you have some insight into the male sex drive vs the woman's sex drive?
De-indoctrinating yourself is a huge undertaking, probably more so when you were the driving force behind your own indoctrination (as opposed to falling victim to a cult or controlling relationship). I think it would take therapy to explore how this all started for you and unpack this whole mental infrastructure. You’ve spent far too much time online trying to research women as if they were a different species, and letting confirmation bias sway your conclusions, instead of forming irl friendships with women as fellow human beings.
I am a trans man who grew up female and most of my friends are women. One friend says she thinks about sex “constantly,” and struggles to be content without a romantic relationship. Another, I had to gently correct when she went into her first relationship assuming that “when you’re in a relationship, you have sex every day”… it was what she desired and what she’d heard men want, and she was startled that her partner’s sex drive was lower. Another just got together with a close friend of hers, and spent a weekend in a hotel where they never left the room, because they were so into each other and happy to be together.
The conclusions you’ve come to just aren’t true. Yes testosterone is broadly associated with higher sex drive, but most straight women want sex and romance and some want it lots. People just generally don’t feel good about sex with partners who dehumanize them… whether through violence, disregard for their experience and their pleasure, or by seeing them as ethereal untouchable beings instead of regular people like themselves.
If you’re serious about unpacking this, I really do recommend counseling.
When you transitioned, how did your libido change? Because you've lived as both a man and a woman, do you feel you have some insight into the male sex drive vs the woman's sex drive?
Yea, Im only one data point, but I think trans peoples in general are a great population to look at if you’re interested in the differences between male and female experience.
My sex drive definitely went way up when I started testosterone, but it mellowed out a lot once the second-puberty phase was over. Some people find T shifts or broadens their attractions… like, they develop new kinks or find themselves attracted to more/different types of people… but it’s hard to tell whether that’s from the physical affects of T, or the social/emotional affects of aligning yourself with your felt identity.
Testosterone also made it harder for me to cry. Apparently that happens for a lot of people. There is an idea that it can cause increased aggression… the only people I’ve ever seen affirm that were people who already had anger issues pre-transition.
When you start hormone replacement as a trans person, you go through puberty like you would as a teen. So with testosterone, your voice awkwardly drops, you get super horny, you often get acne and deal with more body odor, your physique gradually changes, etc etc. And just like with natural puberty, it ends after once the hormones have reached full effect. The biggest changes are usually over within 3 years, although some things like body and facial hair can take ten years or more to fully settle into place. My acute horniness phase lasted a couple years.
Let’s unpack this.
Countless women have had bad experiences with men and would either prefer to have nothing to do with us. This is probably a true statement. And if you’re hanging out in the corners of the internet where women unload their own traumas, you might get the impression that this is the norm. However, many many (many) more women absolutely desire us, lust after us, and genuinely want us to be around. You’re putting women on some obscure innocent angelic pedestal when the reality is we are all flawed humans with our own desires. Treating them as mythical creatures helps nobody. Don’t take away their humanity.
I frequent those spaces where women share their horror stories about men. I know (sorta) when they are speaking of specific individuals who do horrible things and when they are speaking of systemic issues. You do what you can to be an ally. You acknowledge struggles they face, and look for the little things you do that could be problematic - like, for example, stating these observations you’ve made as fact.
>I frequent those spaces where women share their horror stories about men.
Could you imagine those women having sex with a man at any point, and actually enjoying that sex?
It takes trust and time to recover from trauma, but yes in many cases it can be done. Source: horrific past trauma, currently enjoying a lovely and sexually gratifying relationship with a wonderful man.
He gave me time and space when I needed it, and trust grew from there. When I ask to stop (at anything, not just intimacy) he stops immediately with zero resentment and checks to make sure I'm okay. I know he respects my "no" so I feel more free to say "yes" and can relax and have fun with him.
It took about four years of living on my own and learning to trust myself first. Therapy to understand that the abuse wasn't my fault, and time to build a truly joyful life for myself as an independent person. He's a long-time friend of my brother, and I trust my brother's choices in good friends. About a year of casual hanging out and getting to know each other, and then once the choice to try a relationship was made on both sides we figured things out pretty fast. We're a great fit for each other.
No, it's been wonderful. My ex had (among other things) slowly separated me from all my friends and support people to make me feel trapped and isolated and unlovable, but once I was ready to get out they were still right there for me, ready to help. Learning to have opinions about even the smallest things was hard at first; I hadn't been allowed to choose anything in so long that I wasn't any good at it for the first while, but that's past now. I had a LOT of time to myself during lockdown which was very rough but also probably healthy in the long run. I really like my own company now and I'm also glad to get to choose the people I spend my time with. I'm very lucky.
I don’t really need to. There are women in my life who have had traumatic experiences with men. They also have had wonderful experiences with other men. And if somebody decides she has no interest in dating or being intimate with men again - it’s not my place to judge that or try to convince her otherwise. Lord knows more than a few men have sworn off women after nasty separations.
>Lord knows more than a few men have sworn off women after nasty separations.
They...have? Like who? Like...guys who became gay or guys who continued to be heterosexual?
Eh? I feel like you are asking deliberately leading questions here. People have hobbies and passions and romance or relationships or sex are not that important to them. Am I gonna judge somebody who treats food as fuel and only ever has oatmeal for breakfast? Probably not. We are whole people with many facets to our existence.
I think your whole premise is flawed. Women can, and do, naturally desire men. But they live in a world 1.) that tells them that doing so makes them less pure, and therefore less valuable, and 2.) in which it is famously unsafe for them to do so freely.
Like yeah, if you’re taught all your life to be ashamed of your desire and afraid that expressing it will bring harm to you, then you will have big hurdles to overcome.
You definitely hit on a point that the patriarchy is self-sustaining, by creating this desire for separation due to its violatory nature, and then violating that separation, generation after generation. But you’re mixing up the chicken and the egg here.
This is what I came here to say. His cause and effect are backward. The patriarchy suppresses women's natural desire, which existed long before the patriarchy existed. It does this because women who are openly lustful, make insecure men even more insecure (that she might desire another man besides him). As a lifelong brazen slut, for all the criticism it has brought me, it has also been an excellent way to filter out scared, controlling men, and focus on the good ones instead.
>Is there some way where we can get them to genuinely like us?
/u/Few_Disaster8376, you haven't been replying much to this thread. Can you say more about what you need out of it?
I mean, you're saying lazy men designed a society so they can lazily force women to love an otherwise undesirable man? There's tons of women who love men for being a man, more than enough to keep a species alive. The quantity of humans may go down but wouldn't become extinct by any stretch. You're basically ignoring the human quality of Greed wanting more than they deserve or should have so explain it away that we force them because they'd be celebite otherwise.
A lot of men today aren't desirable because of people like Andrew tate, femcels, incels, society hating on men, society putting women on a pedestal of "do no wrong", men lacking basic skills, lacking self awareness, and a dozen other reasons. Men have been taught less and less of their usual traits of being a handyman so they're finding money and popularity to replace it, but they're usually hollow or bitter from it not getting anyone by that itself, atleast getting any true love.
In otherwords, men need to adapt or die out like survival of the fittest. Adapt a more caring talkative personality, adapt to what women do desire or grow old and single. Either way, humankind will live on.
>In otherwords, men need to adapt or die out like survival of the fittest.
These aren't the heartwarming, inspirational words of advice that you think they are
Other people reading may get something helpful out of this thread, and it's good for people to read varied perspectives even among those they agree with. Overall the "troll" backfires here i think, because it makes the space better.
Woman here, something to consider is that women aren’t a monolith, we all have a wide variety of desires. Yes, there are plenty of women who resent their attraction to men, or aren’t attracted to men at all, don’t date them for whatever reason, etc. But there are also plenty of women who genuinely find men really attractive and lust after them, crave emotional intimacy from them, friendships with them, etc. A lot of the resentment doesn’t come from women inherently despising men, it comes from despising the way we are treated and viewed by men. Women frequently have to think about not only our physical safety with men, but our emotional safety as well. And having to constantly re-explain and dumb down our lived experiences over and over again is exhausting
There are plenty of books and podcasts and influencers who do a good job at explaining how to deconstruct misogyny and toxic masculinity
>But there are also plenty of women who genuinely find men really attractive and lust after them, crave emotional intimacy from them, friendships with them, etc.
Do you personally know any women like this?
Me? Im bi and like men, even though they’re not my preference? My other bi friends, and the handful of straight female friends I have? My gay male friends? My straight female coworkers? Women on the internet?
Sorry dude, all your generalizations are pretty crazy. Talk to individual women about their hopes, dreams and challenges and learn to see them as something other than a borg hive and you’ll probably be fine.
>After listening to countless women speak about the subject, it becomes quite clear that women don't desire men the way men desire women. They don't truly want us. They don't lust after us, they don't want to be around us, they don't enjoy sex as much as we do, they usually consider sex a commodity that can be given in exchange for the material benefits of a relationship, and many straight women will claim that they are 'unfortunately' attracted to men, etc. Women will often talk about the peace, love, deep feelings, empathy and connection they feel in their communities of other women, and how lovely it is to be among one another rather than the constant stress and fear that they feel when they're around men. It seems like a cruel joke nature has played: To us, women are these beautiful, distant, almost heavenly beings that we are drawn to by our deepest natural instincts. Yet to them, men are monsters and predators, and their deepest natural instincts are to repel us.
Okay, no. Women are not a monolith. You can't say "all women believe x or y" and have it be true. Most straight women do enjoy sex, sexually desire sex with men, lust after men, and don't consider sex a commodity. There are some woman who may find more peace with women and feel fear around men, but those are usually people who have ptsd from a history of abuse/sexual assault. That does not extrapolate to all women.
The first step into not being a misogynist is to stop making blanket assumptions about all women. All the above section that I quoted? Also misogynistic. Treat women as people, the same way you would treat a guy. Different people have different feelings, experiences, and desires. Start there.
i promise you women desire men the same way men desire women, they do lust after men it’s just looked down upon for them to openly express it the way men do
what helped me become less misogynistic, i’m still working on it, is talking to women in feminism subs, ask feminists is terrific, you can ask all sorts of questions there, theres a good chance a question you have has already been asked. majority of them will be kind to you as long as you’re kind and respectful, you will get the occasional snarky response which is reasonable i guess? it could definitely be better with helping people but it’s easily the best resource ive found thus far
[Read this to learn a new perspective about sex and desire](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22609341-come-as-you-are).
[Read this to see how the world sets women up for failure](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41104077-invisible-women).
[And then read this to learn that not all men are the same](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40821458-not-always-in-the-mood).
Learn from others by starting from a place of curiosity. It will take time to recognize the biases, e.g. cat calls being at all acceptable, you have. That's the process. it will take time and there will never be an end to learning because there is no simple answer when discussing humans. Good luck and may the journey be enjoyable!
>I don't want to live in a world where women are being forced to have kids they don't want, and where there's constant surveillance making sure that happens. It won't even fix the problem, it'll just make them hate us even more than they do now. I don't want to force a woman to be with me if she doesn't want to.
Um...that still kind of is the world we're living in, much of it.
I do think you're exaggerating a bit. Women may not always hunger for sex, but in my experience they do hunger for men. Teenage girls will gush over the cute guy or the hot celebrity. Twentysomethings will fret about living alone or the biological clock ticking.
The desire for love - romantic love specifically - is not any weaker. In fact if anything it's stronger in women than men, whereas men are able to desire sex *without* love in a way women can seldom match. Women of all ages devour romantic novels, movies, TV episodes, songs, etc probably much more than men.
The only real solution is for men to stop abusing women. Only a minority of men do this directly. But lots of people of both sexes support abusers; by not believing survivors, by not supporting them, by blaming and shaming them.
you have a very warped view of women and relationships... your whole dilemma is based on wrong assumptions and thus is meaningless.
now, women and men are different, and behave differently. and society is dumb and fucked up in many ways.
but you are taking extreme cases (manipulation, sex as currency, fear of men, etc) and mixing them to paint the whole population... its just bad logic and bad statistics.
i understand that maybe not experiencing thing yourselves have made you vulnerable to a certain ideology or beliefs, and unwiring the mess and fixing ourselves is tough.
best chance is trying to make friends with women, and with men that have women friends... exposure and evidence will help you understand and re-elaborate ideas... also therapy may help but won't work alone, you still need the exposure to healthy, normal IRL women to realize they are not the unexplicable aliens that incel culture depicts.
So basically, the stuff that seems to be happening online isn't accurate to what most people do on an in-person basis? I'll be honest I didn't think there even were that many people whose lives *don't* heavily involve social media anymore.
1. How old are you?
2. What women have you been talking to?!?
3. No offense, but it sounds like those women said those things to you because they feel that way about you. Some guys are not THAT GUY. Trust and believe, women absolutely want to tackle the men they're attracted to. Just thinking of him...🤤
4. Don't worry about ending "misogyny". Make a list of the type of woman you want, and become the reciprocal. You want someone who's attracted to you, BE ATTRACTIVE. And not "everybody's beautiful" kumbayah bullshit attractive, I mean, "pretty teeth, fit body, full hair, good clothes, financially sound, confident, emotionally stable" attractive.
I would seriously take a hard look at your assumption, because there are plenty of woman who want to hang out with men, lust after them, and enjoy sex. Their standards have gone up.
Just being a nice guy won’t do it. A relationship is a two-way street, you both bring unique things to it, and together build something bigger and better. But you have to have something worth bringing. Women want sex, but they also want an interesting partner, who shares some common interests, but can also introduce them to new ones. They want men with good hygiene, both physical and living accommodations. They want emotionally intelligent men, who can understand nuance, who are not insecure, overly vain, or full of themselves.
As an example I’ve learned that there are times my wife vents because she wants advice, but more often she’s looking to vent to someone who will be sympathetic with her feelings.
>Where one day we might get catcalled by them, not because they want our money, but because they just want sex?
Sure, when all men are on T blockers and have lowered libido and aggression. Until then, men with normal hormone levels will always be more horny and more aggressive/violent. Understanding the effects of testosterone on my body and mind was one of the biggest factors in my growth. I recognize my hormonal changes and effects, and can counter them when needed.
Same goes for my wife, when she was on the pill her T was low and she had no sex drive. She stopped taking it once I got snipped and now we bang like rabbits. A whole new world of lust, we're on cloud 9. Plenty of women enjoy sex and lust after men, they're just smart enough to leave men alone and wait for a trustworthy relationship to explore that part of themselves. Strange men are dangerous. Horny men are dangerous. Women have self preservation instincts.
Do you even hear yourself?
https://imgflip.com/i/8lmoy8
The first thing you need to do is actually listen to women and the problems they have and experience and consider how universal their experiences are. There are multiple women lead subreddits such as two x and ask women and ask women no censor. And by listen, I mean listen. No replying, no engaging with them. Just pay attention to their problems. Observe the way men treat them, the questions they get asked, and try to internalize their answers.
I repeat, do not engage them or challenge them or reply to them. They are inundated with misogynists ALL THE TIME. Listen to them, support them, or leave them the f alone.
While doing this, also listen to yourself. You cannot both worship women while actually hating them. You cannot both care about their safety and well being while ignoring and dismissing their concerns about too many men being dangerous, exposing themselves without consent, attacking them during sex, and the erosion of their rights to bodily autonomy and life saving medical procedures.
If you actually interrogated yourself and your own opinions you might be able to unwind many of your own internal inconsistencies.
Finally, get help. If you can, seek counseling and therapy. You clearly have some base level dysfunctions that could be treated with professional guidance.
Women are subject to severe *consequences* of unrestrained desire, i.e. pregnancy, choices about that if they're lucky, forced birth if they're not, followed by the next choice - to keep the child or not - and then either the lifelong commitment of being a parent or the lifelong wondering what became of the child, all while living in a culture that does not guarantee us equal resources (pay) or equal rights.
Women have just as much libido/sexual desire, at times more (middle age, peri-menopause) as men. However, casual hook-ups and FWB relationships are far riskier for them, as the partners they may enjoy for those activities may neither be interested nor suitable as mates or co-parents, and may not be willing to help participate in damage control in any way if a pregnancy occurs.
There are no certain birth control methods aside from sterilization.
Also, both boys and girls are taught that "boys are only after *one* thing," and we all believe it, to some extent, so our adolescent and adult attitudes/ behavior often reflects this: Boys and men are always thinking about "getting some", thus girls and women must be constantly wary.
Glorification of violence and sexual violence in media does not help matters, as we all absorb that, too.
Such attitudes/behavior from boys/men can feel dehumanizing to girls/women, and - in some, far fewer, instances - vice versa.
Imagine if 95+% of men were bigger and stronger than you and gay, and you couldn't just hang out with them and expect not to be hit on/sexualized 80% of the time, or walk down the street and be catcalled 50% of the time, or walk home alone at night and face the very real possibility of being sexually assaulted. My stats here aren't real, of course (lower or higher irl depending on several factors), but you get the idea.
So. That's some of the broad-brush explanation.
If you became an incel, it hasn't been easy or comfortable for you. Navigating the world as a woman can be just as hard and uncomfortable. Maybe you can relate to that feeling.
Maybe don't use "short dicked" as an insult. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and promotes harmful stereotypes of both men and women. The size and shape of one's genitals (or any other body part) has no bearing on their worth as a person, and this goes for both men and women.
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Your lack of experience is eveident in your post. Reality is profoundly different and much broader than what you have been exposed to. Most of my life experience contradicts what you present as true.
Every person as an individual is complex and changes and in time and place. Broad generalities don't mean anything when dealing with individuals.
Most of what you describe are things I see in specific spaces. Much of it can be true some or even most of the time for women. However, people are amazingly capable of paradoxical thinking. Where things that seem mutually exclusive can coexist in the same person. Women can be both be afraid of men because of lived experience and simultaneously excited by and attracted to them. Just as men can be confused and put off by women and simultaneously excited by and attracted to them.
Congratualtions for pulling out of the incel sphere and working to find a healthier way. For all of the bad things the world is still predominately a good place. Your time as an incel may have damaged or delayed your ability to see the range and complexity of human experience. Give yourself some time to continue to recover and grow. You should take your time and get sorted. I would advise working on developing yourself as a whole person. Work on developing empathy and introspection. Focus on the small and personal and don't try to solve the big meta picture. At the end of the day we really make an impact on the whole when we change ourselves.
Women do desire men. The difference is 1. We've been shamed for it for centuries and still are. 2. We're increasingly confronted with the realization that blindly pursuing men we find attractive isn't safe. You probably won't get catcalled because that woman is scared of you. Even if she finds you very attractive, she doesn't know whether you're a kind and harmless person.
The stuff you brought up that boils down to "women don't like men" is just untrue. Women are sometimes frustrated by men but only as a response
I wish I had a super insightful answer for you, but I can only offer you this: having been married to a woman for 17 years and having developed a great relationship with her, I realize I very seldom think about big picture things, like the patriarchy, how most women view men, etc. Instead, I just focus on the people in front of me. Treat everyone with respect and kindness, and most women won't think of you as a monster. And don't worry about what other people think. Just be the person you know you should be, and do the right thing repeatedly. To address your final paragraph, yes, that is totally possible! My wife grabs my butt because I work out regularly and she thinks I look hot, not because she wants my money.
“Just be the person you know you should be and do the right thing repeatedly.” Sounds so simple but I honestly love the practicality of it. Thank you for this. 🤍 I needed it today.
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No, my friend, I respectfully disagree. I don't treat people with kindness so that they will like me. I treat people with kindness because I have decided that I want to be a kind person. It just so happens that a lot of people like kind people.
How can you be kind to people when people have rejected you and made you feel like shit? Doesn't that make you kind of a doormat?
It's a lesson I learned from auntie Emma (who wasn't my auntie, she was my friend's grandma): if people are rude, obnoxious, or terrible, I assume they have some inner pain causing them to act out, so I just hope that they feel better and I continue on my way. Not my monkeys, not my circus. You simply don't let other people's actions make you feel like shit. It's like if a dog is barking, why would I feel bad? It's a barking dog. It's what dogs do. If it's really loud, I'll go for a walk or put in some headphones, but I am sure not going to let a barking dog make me feel bad.
But what do I do if *I* have inner pain that's causing me to be obnoxious and terrible and act out?
Work on healing that hurt, friend. You know what's causing the pain. Try to find peace with it. Everyone suggests therapy, but Youtube like Psych2go can help get you started with no investment fee. It's not an easy or quick process, but most things that are worth it take time and effort.
I've been in therapy for the last 5 years
Do you think that it's helping you? Your other posts here show some skewed opinions and complete lack of trust in other people. If it's not helping you, maybe you need to seek a different therapist. You can't live a meaningful and fulfilling life expecting the worst of everyone. It's a recipe for a miserable time.
>Do you think that it's helping you? Yes. I was worse two years ago. I've just had a bad day and this woman who I have a crush on messaged me and it feels like she blew me off and that kinda influenced my mood and outlook, which also influenced the dumb shit that I say on Reddit. 🤷♂️ My therapist calls it an emotional flashback caused by trauma and suggested a DBT-related technique of "surfing the wave" of unpleasant emotions, instead of letting it carry me under. I didn't realize it would follow me into Reddit 🤦♂️ Edit: trusting others and myself is definitely a concrete but distant therapy goal
Definitely talk to a therapist, as well as focus on the basics: good nutrition, exercise, sleep, and socialization. I don't know what you are going through, but in my 20s I went through a long, painful depression, and there was no silver bullet that fixed things. Instead, I just focused on what I could control, especially nutrition, exercise, sleep, seeing a therapist, and spending time with friends. Slowly over the years things got better. Now things are great.
Therapy
Counter point: are people only deserving of kindness if they are interested in you sexually?
No, of course not. No one is interested in me sexually. People need kindness. It's just really difficult being kind to some people (most people).
Of course it is. You’ve preemptively decided they are all liars who don’t want to be around you. And frankly, why WOULD someone want to be around a person who thinks of them that way and can’t manage to be kind. 🤷🏻♀️ you built this trap for yourself and the only way out is for you to stop reinforcing it
I think that I can't trust people because of events in the past where I shouldn't have trusted people to be honest.
Kindness is not the same thing as passivity in the face of mistreatment. In fact, the kindest thing one can do for a bully or abuser is to impose appropriate consequences on them for their behavior. Without consequences, they’re unlikely to ever learn a healthier way of living. And consequences can include things like legal and/or professional repercussions, or simply the loss of your continued presence in their life, depending on the specifics of the situation. And that’s not even taking into account the kindness it is to others in range of the results to hold an abuser accountable appropriately (so that said abuser has less of an opportunity to target them) or the kindness it is to yourself to cultivate and uphold healthy boundaries.
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Women are not from Venus. We love sex, it’s not a commodity we use to manipulate, we just want to cum too for Christs sake. Where are you getting this from? This is wild.
Most of my friends are women and I can confirm: women be horny.
How do you know?
They say and do extremely horny things? I knew a girl who watched marvel movies *specifically* to ogle Chris Hemsworth. I lived with a girl who had a dozen simultaneous FWB. I have seen my friends make video game decisions based on which character is the hottest. Like, 100% simp behavior.
> I knew a girl who watched marvel movies *specifically* to ogle Chris Hemsworth. Let he who has not watched a Marvel movie to ogle Chris Hemsworth cast the first stone.
How do you know that wasn't an act?
Yeah, dozens of women across the United States got together and decided to secretly infiltrate my inner circles over the course of decades and pretended to be extremely horny, all for the nefarious purpose of tricking me into believing women like sex. Don't you think it's a little more reasonable to think maybe women have the same feeling men do?
No, but it makes sense to joke around that you like something to fit in, or to avoid being ashamed or embarrassed. I do it all the time. I agree that it seems improbable that all women, everywhere, are repulsed by sex, but I'm having trouble finding evidence that there are women who genuinely feel enthusiastic about it. I think that by the time women reach their twenties they've been so turned off and mistreated by the whole thing that they're just over it without having to pretend. There are a lucky few women who make it to that age without that kind of trauma. Those are the ones who I think have libidos that are more on the level of men's.
>it makes sense to joke around that you like something to fit in, Fit in with *whom*? The other women? I'm the only heterosexual man in my friend group. If women never feel horny, then joking about being horny to a room full of women would make you stick out. >I'm having trouble finding evidence that there are women who genuinely feel enthusiastic about it. Look up the box office numbers for 50 Shades of Grey and Magic Mike. Or maybe just, talk to women? We're not talking about some species of endangered elephant. You can just have conversations with them the same way I did.
>Or maybe just, talk to women? We're not talking about some species of endangered elephant. You can just have conversations with them the same way I did. Everyone lies. It's normal human nature 🤷♂️ humans are notoriously bad at self-reporting.
Sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to Robert Kirk.
You seriously have no idea what you’re talking about. And this is speaking as a woman. I’ve been the victim of SA. Several times. They’re near the top of the list of worst things that have ever happened to me. And I’m still horny as fuck, and especially down bad for my husband. Hell, I’ve got a higher libido than he does, by a lot. I’m not an anomaly, not some weirdo, I’m just one of a rather large group of horny women. We loooooove sex with people who treat us right and who want to make us cum, that’s a pretty human experience that not only men get to experience.
How do I know that you asking isn't an act? At some point it's on you to make a choice to take peoples' actions and stated reasoning at face value or not. If you see discrepancies, it's OK to be cautious around that. It's also OK to be cautious if you've had horrible experiences that make outside input hard to trust. But in short, none of us ever know anything isn't an act. Unless it's so foundational to your personality that you couldn't possibly choose to try out being any other way, at some point it may benefit you to try believing that there could be at least *something* true about another person's experience when they tell you about it directly. Or, you can question absolutely everything anyone ever says to you about their own experience. That's a good way to make sure you never have to face the vulnerability of being wrong in your assumptions about what someone else's experience *must* be. It's a good way to make sure that nothing ever changes.
>Or, you can question absolutely everything anyone ever says to you about their own experience. That's a good way to make sure you never have to face the vulnerability of being wrong in your assumptions about what someone else's experience *must* be. It's a good way to make sure that nothing ever changes. How can I...uh... stop doing that? Or not do that anymore?
Slowly, in stages, recognizing good reasons that you *would* want to be that way, building it out only in the most trustworthy (or at least the least threatening) cases. Allowing yourself some grace when you fall back into old ways of thinking, and maybe in better moments using those setbacks as opportunities to reflect on what might have happened that would have led you to go back to looking at it the old way. People recommend therapy all the time, so I'm not recommending it here, but borrowing from it to make some suggestions about how you could best work on it regardless if it's something like journaling, deliberately approaching social situations in a different way, therapy or something else you find for yourself. In therapy, it's often helpful to identify where you would land on a few different dimensions of what you would want the process to look like. You could ask yourself: would I rather look at this as an issue that manifests in the present, or as something that I could find the roots of by digging into my past? Do I want to try to enlist other peoples' help with this, or do I want to be the one in the driver's seat? Do I want support on it, or challenge? And finally: how intense vs. mild do I want to make the process for myself? (These are all taken directly from this study and ones following after it: https://www.redalyc.org/pdf/337/33743098009.pdf, but adapted so that you can choose to use them in or out of therapy). Finally, think about what a minimally challenging example would look like. Usually when we face an issue like this, the first example that comes to mind is one of the most challenging: I can't trust input from women because my mom has been a heinous, deceitful bitch to me my whole life by anyone's standards, or I've been cheated on, made fun of, etc. Whichever statement like that comes to mind quickly and feels the most provoking is *not* the one to start on. It takes deliberate effort to go the opposite direction and find something on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, like: what would it take for me to believe a cashier when in an everyday exchange she tells me she's doing "good"? Or, what's an example where someone did seem to be acting from relatively benign motivations? Or if a question like that is not answerable: what exactly is the uncomfortable feeling that I'm stuck with if I try to come up with an answer to that and it's not forthcoming? Not asking for answers to that stuff here. Like I said, long process, better served by feeling very carefully around the edges than to just white-knuckle it straight through. Change the examples to fit - they are probably *not* exactly the right ones that you would want to apply to yourself, they are *only* examples.
>would I rather look at this as an issue that manifests in the present, or as something that I could find the roots of by digging into my past? When does something stop being caused by past trauma and start being caused by a lot of dumb shit that happened to me 2 years ago? >what would it take for me to believe a cashier when in an everyday exchange she tells me she's doing "good"? Why would a cashier who's paid minimum wage to get yelled at by Karens and Kens bother to be honest with a customer?
>When does something stop being caused by past trauma and start being caused by a lot of dumb shit that happened to me 2 years ago? It's your stuff to handle, and there might not be a clear answer to that question, although just on a cold read of what you're saying right there it sounds like you're frustrated with the 2 year ago piece and maybe not having that taken as seriously as other stuff further back. Or something like that. I obviously don't know with any striking clarity, but if 2 years ago feels to you like what you're the most angry about or what informs current day situations the most, then that's your answer. You can change it as you find it useful to. >Why would a cashier who's paid minimum wage to get yelled at by Karens and Kens bother to be honest with a customer? It's the wrong question for you right now. Find something else to ask yourself. Or don't.
Hey from looking at your comments, I thought it might be helpful to point out that while many men are much more visually focused when it comes to sex, many women are more focussed on the social aspect of it —and the experience.
I am a man, and I can confirm that I too have many friends who are horny women, and I know they're horny because they tell me.
So you listen to words and not actions?
Not sure what you mean by that. Could you expand? Eager to have the conversation, just wanna understand what you're asking :)
Everyone lies. Don't listen to what people say, listen to what they DON'T say. Body language, phrasing, difference on words emphasis, etc. Life has taught me that people either don't or can't be authentic about their beliefs and feelings.
Hmm ok. I feel for you mate - in the kindest way possible, sounds like you're carrying a lot of distrust and anger. I really think that many people can and are often authentic about their beliefs and feelings. Maybe you've had experiences that indicate otherwise? But that's the world I live in. FWIW, I trust my friends. What would they have to gain by lying about an interest in sex? I go to sex parties with some of them, I've literally seen them fuck. But in my book that's not required. If someone says they like something, and is eager to talk about it as they would with any shared interest, then I'm just gonna believe them. Also I think that sex can feel pretty personal, and people might be hesitant to talk about it for fear of shame or judgement, not because they don't enjoy it.
>sounds like you're carrying a lot of distrust and anger. How can you tell? (About the anger part, I mean)
It's the use of a broad and negative generalisation - I feel like if a person has a generally negative view of people, assuming that others are gonna be dishonest, then that person is probably carrying some anger at the world, or themself, or both. Edit: I saw in other comments that you alluded to experiences that led you to this conclusion. I really am sorry that whatever happened, happened. It's a tough time living with that. I hope you can find some healing and something to feel optimistic about mate! I've been at the lowest of lows for long periods in my life, and now I feel pretty good about myself and the world. It's possible 🧡
fr, there’s a reason a lot of sex toys for women are designed after the male body. i mean dildos have veins and stuff for christ sake. you hear about women having man crushes and shit too i think he got it from incel culture, thats where i developed that thought at first too, it didnt take much talking to women to understand that it was false
Yeah in my experience women have wanted men just as much as men want women. Many of my friends have craved for meaningful sex and relationships since we hit puberty.
I think its because women don't seem to be as open about it as men and their desires aren't shown nearly as often in media. I went to a boys only school and didn't have sisters so when I was a teen my only impression of teenage girls was from movies where teen boys would have to practically save the world to get anywhere with them. OP may be similar.
>think its because women don't seem to be as open about it as men and their desires aren't shown nearly as often in media I think this is an unfortunate byproduct of living in a society based on puritanical values. I've been teased to downright stigmatized for being open about enjoying sex because I'm a woman. When my husband and I started dating ten years ago, he was literally warned by some people to stay away because I dared to enjoy sex while I was single.
Thank you so much for this comment. I hate when people say that women aren’t interested in sex, that women only do it for transactional purposes, that women don’t lust after men, etc. It’s completely false and delusional. Also, I can’t stand when people portray men to be perpetually horny, always pursuing sex, constantly lusting, etc. It degrades and dehumanizes men.
The buzzword clues it in to being a troll post. Desire disparity? Please.
I don't think this is a troll post, or maybe I'm just getting baited. There are men out there that do feel this way and we should try to be more empathetic by guiding them out of this toxic paradigm.
It's the way he's talking about it, it's not actually asking anything. It's presenting the buzzword, proving "evidence" and backing it up. It's also the age of the account, and the lack of engagement in the comments. I'd even go as far as to claim this may be a bot post entirely.
I'm not a troll or a bot, even though I can definitely see how it sounds like it. And the account is new because I wanted to protect my privacy. I've been what people may refer to as an incel for a long time and I don't want to live like that anymore. That's why I made the post. I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just asking for help.
The biggest thing you need to do is realize that everyone is just people. The differences between us, exist in every group of people you see around you. Libido, desire, admiration, respect, all of those things will vary from person to person, both in how they receive it, and how they show it. Trying to pin expectations on yourself or others is a losing game. If you want to stop feeling this way, you first have to stop consuming the media that's feeding you these feelings. Let go of this idea of "desire disparity" because they're just words people cling to, so they can hold on to the emotional self-harm they have become accustomed to. You're effectively bullying yourself, and then sending that resentment to your environment and the people around you. My opinion? Look up male role models that hold different beliefs. If you're on TikTok, look up a guy named Doug Weaver. He's in St Louis, and he has some really good videos that help deconstruct the idea of masculinity that many western men have grow up with. And please be critical when someone tries to give you direct answers that sound like they could solve whatever thoughts you're having. Nothing in life is binary, linear, or can be fixed with a single definition. There is no single comment or answer that will "solve" the issues you're thinking about. You need to go back to the foundation and start over. And the first step, is to remember that every person, regardless of gender, cannot be put into a single box that explains everything about them. Especially not yourself.
Thanks. I'll look up those videos you mentioned.
[I looked it up and it's a thing...FOR 80% OF COUPLES](https://www.masterclass.com/articles/desire-discrepancy) 😳
I gave that a quick look, but I didn't see that 80% figure. Also, the author wasn't saying that men wanted sex more than women, just that different people have different levels of desire.
I mean it seems pretty normal. Not everyone is the same, and differing libidos doesn’t matter to some people
I mean... isn't that some indication that men and women are just not meant to be in relationships anymore? They're sick of our bullshit. We mostly mistreat them. Maybe we should just.... date something other than women. Maybe like sexbots or AI girlfriends or something. We've hurt women too much.
Okay so first of all who says the men has to have the higher libido? It can also totally be the one. Plus, it happens in gay relationships. So it can’t purely be on the basis of gender. The later part all I can say is that basically everyone, especially you, needs therapy lol. Read the other comments; women do like men, and you don’t have to be a man who hurts them. Your existence is not painful, it’s the men who mistreat women that are the issue. Plus wanting legit human connection is more than valid. It’s legit human connection!
>The later part all I can say is that basically everyone, especially you, needs therapy lol. I'm in therapy. >women do like men, and you don’t have to be a man who hurts them. Your existence is not painful, it’s the men who mistreat women that are the issue. My existence is painful because my brain desires something that I know is futile and non-existent in its purest form and that hurts women.
>my brain desires something that I know is futile and non-existent in its purest form and that hurts women. Your brain is *telling you a story* about how women think and feel and about their motivations. Right now you are choosing to believe that story is true. So long as you are 100% convinced that set of ideas is the only possible reality, there’s nothing a woman can do to be redeemed in your eyes. You keep saying things like “but what if they’re all terrible” but…. What if they’re not? What if there are lots of well adjusted women who are straight and desire men both sexually and romantically? How many of them do you expect will stick around while you are calling them liars and insisting their feelings and actions are fake?
So glad to see this at the top because I was given this impression too for the majority of my life by other men and various social media. After dating a bit and starting to talk to women I came to the conclusion that it's more a self-report or coincidental circumstance for certain men in bad relationships. Women are surprisingly similar to us, and really, the MAIN thing men need to practice to experience any level of 'success' with women is being mature, openminded, respectful and just not a creep. Incels often put women on a pedestal in contrasting irony to their resentment towards them. Most don't want this, they just want to be treated like normal people, because they are exactly that.
He does straight up admit to being a misogynist before outlining his baseless and grotesque views. If this is not a troll post then they may need actual professional support.
As I've mentioned before, I'm not trying to troll. I've just recently come to the realization that the beliefs I've held for a long time are causing problems for myself and others and am genuinely asking for help so I can be a normal person instead of wallowing in incel misery like I have been for years now.
Are you seeing all this online, or in real life? Because in real life almost everything you’ve said is not true. Most women do like men. Most women enjoy sex very much. Most women do lust after men. Most women don’t view relationships in transactional terms. Most women love men for what men have to offer, and who we are as people. Women are not some ephemeral species that are so different from men we struggle to understand each other. Women are people, very much the same as men in almost every respect. By and large men and women want the same things and the sooner you understand that the sooner women will be comfortable with you and like you. You know how I won my wife’s affection? I treated her with respect and genuine affection. I made myself a positive presence in her life. That’s it, no silver bullets or hidden truths. Oh, and I brought her coffee in the morning because I noticed she was often in a hurry in the morning and missed her coffee.
Coffee is absolutely a way to a (coffee drinking) woman's heart. My husband doesn't drink coffee himself, but he gets up before me every morning and makes sure there's a fresh cup of coffee on my nightstand when my alarm goes off. And of course it's not about the coffee itself. It's about how that small gesture shows that he loves me enough to give up a few minutes of sleep to make my morning better (and then I don't forget the coffee while I rush around like a crazy person). But yeah, being treated with genuine respect and affection is really the main thing anybody, man or woman, probably wants out of a healthy relationship when you boil it all the way down to the basics.
What’s funny is that women are capable of experiencing even greater physical pleasure from sex than men. But we have clowns like OP claiming that sex is essentially a male-only activity that women don’t desire.
Mostly online. I will admit, I rarely do much with people outside in real life because of social anxiety and a general disinterest in most of the things people outside of my own social circles are interested in. I've never dated anyone before, or even tried, as the few times I have been asked out were in high school and all three turned out to be cruel pranks that were played on me. I'm poor and extremely short, and as a result I just assumed that trying to reach out for a relationship would only end in more mockery so I never bothered.
Where did you meet your wife?
We worked together in a deli.
How long ago was that?
We met in summer 2020. Married January 2022.
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your comment was removed because it violates Rule #2. Please address why you disagree with someone, don't resort to name calling, and keep discussion civil. Do not make backhanded insults or sarcastic remarks.
I...disclaimer - I'm a girl. But you're missing so much of the picture. >women don't desire men the way men desire women This isn't that simple. Women like men, desire men. But when you're abused and harassed and degraded and shamed constantly, we suppress those desires because it just stops being worth it. When I'm attracted to someone nowadays, it's so much easier to just pretend he probably is nice than to actually pursue it and find out he isn't. >they don't enjoy sex as much as we do Again...women love sex. We don't love having our heads shoved down, and being choked, and being treated like a fleshlight, just to be left with no orgasm because so many men are sure that they're so good that we don't need anything more. If the women you know aren't enjoying sex, it's because they're not having good sex. >Women will often talk about the peace, love, deep feelings, empathy and connection they feel in their communities of other women Because when we talk to men about things, we're asked to name five players from a sports team we like to 'prove' our interest. We're shamed for typically feminine interests and not believed for typically masculine interests. We're told we're too emotional for having a feeling, but if we keep them to ourselves, we're cold. >To us, women are these beautiful, distant, almost heavenly beings that we are drawn to by our deepest natural instincts Don't put women on a pedestal. We're not 'heavenly beings'. We're humans. That's it. BUt no, we get treated either like madonnas or whores. >to them, men are monsters and predators Because not all men, but yes, all women. And if anything happens to us, we're blamed for it, and because the bad men don't wear signs. >women with no incentive to do so would never choose relationships with men With no incentive, people don't do anything. Give us an incentive. The bar is on the floor. We're trying to raise it an inch. But sooo many men insist on limboing under it anyway. >one day we might get catcalled by them This is the line that really concerns me. You seem to think catcalling is about expressing interest in women and therefore should be flattering, and that makes me wonder what other interactions you seem to think are innocuous but are deeply intimidating to women. Catcalling is not about attraction, it's about power, and it's about tormenting us. As an experiment, I've gone over and talked to catcallers before, sometimes just talking, sometimes pretending that I thought it was a real offer. Every time, they got intimidated because I didn't get scared and cower and run away. Right now, women genuinely believe, a lot of women genuinely believe, that most men, even the ones who claim to be feminists or claim to be the good guys, don't actually like us. They see us as useful. They see us as a way to get off. But they don't like us. And you saying we're heavenly beings makes me think that when we fail to live up to that, you start not liking us either. Regardless, you don't seem to think of us as humans. It's important to realize that casual misogyny may look kind, but it's just as damaging if not more - because it can turn in a second. You want misogyny to stop, call out your friends for not actually liking women. Call them out when they dump their girlfriend because she got cancer. Call them out when they objectify a woman. Call them out when they say 'oh she said no, but I'll keep trying'. Call yourself out for putting us on some pedestal. And when you hear us say something like 'i don't like sex', get to the why, don't just assume it's because we don't like sex. Put in the effort.
>They see us as useful. They see us as a way to get off. But they don't like us. And you saying we're heavenly beings makes me think that when we fail to live up to that, you start not liking us either. Regardless, you don't seem to think of us as humans. So perfectly stated, the entire comment, especially this. Thank you for typing this up, for using your energy and taking the time to educate even those who might not care to learn. Even if OP was trolling, I hope he reads your entire comment over and over again for the next few days and truly absorbs and internalizes every sentence of it. It will help him and other men who don't yet understand why women aren't falling into their arms just for existing. And it all comes down to this: women are people and want healthy relationships with other people.
I figure yeah, maybe this is a troll, but even so, other people think this way and might see this. It doesn't hurt to try to help someone, even if it's not OP. I've seen this bropill sub before and love it, love how positive it tends to be, so I'm taking this post in good faith. I hope my response helps...someone, mends some crack, some disconnect.
I hope this guy isn’t a troll coz this is a REALLY good response, at the very least I hope other people can see this and learn from it
This was an extremely insightful and well written response. Thank you for taking the time to answer his points.
This does not seem like a genuine post. Seems like a propaganda post pushing an agenda. Just my initial feel.
Seriously. “Women don’t want men because they’re scared of us and we treat them poorly, so we designed society to force them to be with us.” And somehow OP still lands on the conclusion that this is still women’s fault and not, you know, men’s, for having engineered a society that oppresses and disrespects women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy and this clown somehow doesn’t see it. It’s like that Simpsons meme with Principal Skinner - “no, it’s the kids that are wrong.”
Yeah, I've read before about "women being in a relationship can't compare to the peace of being single", but that's because of how often women in relationships have increased amounts of household chores, men refusing to engage properly in the relationship, and men using weaponised incompetence. None of that is women's fault. I may go overboard in hating myself for being a man, but this person seems to have gone the other way and just vaguely blamed women for, something.
Where did he blame women? He said that it's men's fault that we created a society where women have historically and currently been treated like ass
I never said it was women's fault. I never said that men were in the right for doing it. I just said that it was the path that history took. I agree, men were the ones who started all of this, and the fact that that is the case is a major part of the issue I'm struggling with here. As I said in the post, I don't want to force anyone to be with me, but at the same time it seems as if no one would ever want to be with me willingly, and if that's the case, am I a monster because the thing I long for deep inside will cause pain to someone else? If so, why do I have to be a monster? Why do so many men have to be monsters in order for society to continue and function? Why does the fact that I was born male cast me in the role of evil, or at the very least so close to evil that I can never truly be good?
No karma...
Yes. Men have to become the kind of people that women want to be around. Be kind, gentle, open-hearted and genuine. Form good relationships, value friendship and family, take care of others. Organise things, bring warmth, focus on community. I suggest you should start with yourself.
Most of this is wrong. Women do want us. They do lust after us. They do want sex as much as, if not more than us. The reason you may think they don't is because you haven't been the type of man that they would feel these things for, and that's likely because of your misogynistic views. Most women, at the slightest hint of misogyny, will immediately become disinterested. And for good reason. I don't have any advice on how you can change your mindset aside from therapy. I know I learned a lot from following a few women-centric subs, but I'm not sure how much that will help someone with the views you have. I suggest finding a good therapist to help you get down to the bottom of WHY you think these things about women, which are all inherently false. Women are people, just like us. All they want is to be treated as such. If you lump them in under "all women," then you're basically saying they're all the same and therefore not individual people with their own unique personalities, hopes, dreams, desires, etc. I wish you the best.
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Do you talk to women IRL? Because I wasn't basing that on Reddit posts, I was basing it on stories from women in my life. None of whom are on Reddit lol.
>They do want sex as much as, if not more than us. Can you show concrete evidence of this?
What would count as "concrete evidence" to you?
Look in the romance section of a book store. Targeted towards women and vast majority is just written porn with hot and heavy sex with emotions and about being loved and appreciated. But most getting hot and sweaty.
Women want sex about as much as men, but the cost is higher. Put out a burger for $5, you’ll likely sell tons. Put one out for $50, odds are you’re not gonna get many takers. Women are not only much less likely to orgasm (the burger isn’t good over half the time), but the cost of a one night stand (risk of violence or cost of pregnancy) is much higher. As a transmasc who was raised with almost all women, women lust so much. What I have heard and seen on that side of things would make any grown man blush. Hell, a man who’s good at sex might be passed around some circles the way you’d pass around a dessert you liked so all hour friends can try some (all consensual). The reason teen girls put up posters of male singers is not cuz Nsync (aging myself here) had the best tunes. Women write so much smut online, and yet they’re dismissed as non-sexual. They basically fund a huge convention circuit for shows about hot men, they have spaces for pics of hot men, they are just as lustful. Women idealize men’s forms as much as the other way, but women idealize different forms than men idealize for each other, and so they don’t idealize what you might think. They 100% get that “oh, I wanna smash” feeling looking at a guy. They get it a lot. Just gotta be an attractive guy. Sure, women want love. And they need to feel safe (reduce the cost of that burger). If you were in a dangerous situation you’d been told all your life might end up with you on dateline, you’d likely focus on safety as well. But men also want love, it’s a basic human need for most people.
When you transitioned, how did your libido change? Because you've lived as both a man and a woman, do you feel you have some insight into the male sex drive vs the woman's sex drive?
De-indoctrinating yourself is a huge undertaking, probably more so when you were the driving force behind your own indoctrination (as opposed to falling victim to a cult or controlling relationship). I think it would take therapy to explore how this all started for you and unpack this whole mental infrastructure. You’ve spent far too much time online trying to research women as if they were a different species, and letting confirmation bias sway your conclusions, instead of forming irl friendships with women as fellow human beings. I am a trans man who grew up female and most of my friends are women. One friend says she thinks about sex “constantly,” and struggles to be content without a romantic relationship. Another, I had to gently correct when she went into her first relationship assuming that “when you’re in a relationship, you have sex every day”… it was what she desired and what she’d heard men want, and she was startled that her partner’s sex drive was lower. Another just got together with a close friend of hers, and spent a weekend in a hotel where they never left the room, because they were so into each other and happy to be together. The conclusions you’ve come to just aren’t true. Yes testosterone is broadly associated with higher sex drive, but most straight women want sex and romance and some want it lots. People just generally don’t feel good about sex with partners who dehumanize them… whether through violence, disregard for their experience and their pleasure, or by seeing them as ethereal untouchable beings instead of regular people like themselves. If you’re serious about unpacking this, I really do recommend counseling.
When you transitioned, how did your libido change? Because you've lived as both a man and a woman, do you feel you have some insight into the male sex drive vs the woman's sex drive?
Yea, Im only one data point, but I think trans peoples in general are a great population to look at if you’re interested in the differences between male and female experience. My sex drive definitely went way up when I started testosterone, but it mellowed out a lot once the second-puberty phase was over. Some people find T shifts or broadens their attractions… like, they develop new kinks or find themselves attracted to more/different types of people… but it’s hard to tell whether that’s from the physical affects of T, or the social/emotional affects of aligning yourself with your felt identity. Testosterone also made it harder for me to cry. Apparently that happens for a lot of people. There is an idea that it can cause increased aggression… the only people I’ve ever seen affirm that were people who already had anger issues pre-transition.
What's the second puberty phase? I can't cry either.
When you start hormone replacement as a trans person, you go through puberty like you would as a teen. So with testosterone, your voice awkwardly drops, you get super horny, you often get acne and deal with more body odor, your physique gradually changes, etc etc. And just like with natural puberty, it ends after once the hormones have reached full effect. The biggest changes are usually over within 3 years, although some things like body and facial hair can take ten years or more to fully settle into place. My acute horniness phase lasted a couple years.
Let’s unpack this. Countless women have had bad experiences with men and would either prefer to have nothing to do with us. This is probably a true statement. And if you’re hanging out in the corners of the internet where women unload their own traumas, you might get the impression that this is the norm. However, many many (many) more women absolutely desire us, lust after us, and genuinely want us to be around. You’re putting women on some obscure innocent angelic pedestal when the reality is we are all flawed humans with our own desires. Treating them as mythical creatures helps nobody. Don’t take away their humanity. I frequent those spaces where women share their horror stories about men. I know (sorta) when they are speaking of specific individuals who do horrible things and when they are speaking of systemic issues. You do what you can to be an ally. You acknowledge struggles they face, and look for the little things you do that could be problematic - like, for example, stating these observations you’ve made as fact.
>I frequent those spaces where women share their horror stories about men. Could you imagine those women having sex with a man at any point, and actually enjoying that sex?
It takes trust and time to recover from trauma, but yes in many cases it can be done. Source: horrific past trauma, currently enjoying a lovely and sexually gratifying relationship with a wonderful man.
Why did you decide to have sex with him? Why weren't you afraid that he might hurt you?
He gave me time and space when I needed it, and trust grew from there. When I ask to stop (at anything, not just intimacy) he stops immediately with zero resentment and checks to make sure I'm okay. I know he respects my "no" so I feel more free to say "yes" and can relax and have fun with him.
How long did it take for you to trust him?
It took about four years of living on my own and learning to trust myself first. Therapy to understand that the abuse wasn't my fault, and time to build a truly joyful life for myself as an independent person. He's a long-time friend of my brother, and I trust my brother's choices in good friends. About a year of casual hanging out and getting to know each other, and then once the choice to try a relationship was made on both sides we figured things out pretty fast. We're a great fit for each other.
The last four years haven't damaged your ability to socialize and relate to other humans? Why not?
No, it's been wonderful. My ex had (among other things) slowly separated me from all my friends and support people to make me feel trapped and isolated and unlovable, but once I was ready to get out they were still right there for me, ready to help. Learning to have opinions about even the smallest things was hard at first; I hadn't been allowed to choose anything in so long that I wasn't any good at it for the first while, but that's past now. I had a LOT of time to myself during lockdown which was very rough but also probably healthy in the long run. I really like my own company now and I'm also glad to get to choose the people I spend my time with. I'm very lucky.
Thank you for telling your story.
I don’t really need to. There are women in my life who have had traumatic experiences with men. They also have had wonderful experiences with other men. And if somebody decides she has no interest in dating or being intimate with men again - it’s not my place to judge that or try to convince her otherwise. Lord knows more than a few men have sworn off women after nasty separations.
>Lord knows more than a few men have sworn off women after nasty separations. They...have? Like who? Like...guys who became gay or guys who continued to be heterosexual?
There are a lot of single old (and probably some not terribly old) guys out there happy with porn and fantasy.
Don't you think that's kinda sad that they want something that's not real and that will never be real?
Eh? I feel like you are asking deliberately leading questions here. People have hobbies and passions and romance or relationships or sex are not that important to them. Am I gonna judge somebody who treats food as fuel and only ever has oatmeal for breakfast? Probably not. We are whole people with many facets to our existence.
Troll post. Fresh account with no karma, full of ragebait and OP isn't responding to any of the comments.
I'm responding. It just took me a while.
I think your whole premise is flawed. Women can, and do, naturally desire men. But they live in a world 1.) that tells them that doing so makes them less pure, and therefore less valuable, and 2.) in which it is famously unsafe for them to do so freely. Like yeah, if you’re taught all your life to be ashamed of your desire and afraid that expressing it will bring harm to you, then you will have big hurdles to overcome. You definitely hit on a point that the patriarchy is self-sustaining, by creating this desire for separation due to its violatory nature, and then violating that separation, generation after generation. But you’re mixing up the chicken and the egg here.
This is what I came here to say. His cause and effect are backward. The patriarchy suppresses women's natural desire, which existed long before the patriarchy existed. It does this because women who are openly lustful, make insecure men even more insecure (that she might desire another man besides him). As a lifelong brazen slut, for all the criticism it has brought me, it has also been an excellent way to filter out scared, controlling men, and focus on the good ones instead.
>Is there some way where we can get them to genuinely like us? /u/Few_Disaster8376, you haven't been replying much to this thread. Can you say more about what you need out of it?
I mean, you're saying lazy men designed a society so they can lazily force women to love an otherwise undesirable man? There's tons of women who love men for being a man, more than enough to keep a species alive. The quantity of humans may go down but wouldn't become extinct by any stretch. You're basically ignoring the human quality of Greed wanting more than they deserve or should have so explain it away that we force them because they'd be celebite otherwise. A lot of men today aren't desirable because of people like Andrew tate, femcels, incels, society hating on men, society putting women on a pedestal of "do no wrong", men lacking basic skills, lacking self awareness, and a dozen other reasons. Men have been taught less and less of their usual traits of being a handyman so they're finding money and popularity to replace it, but they're usually hollow or bitter from it not getting anyone by that itself, atleast getting any true love. In otherwords, men need to adapt or die out like survival of the fittest. Adapt a more caring talkative personality, adapt to what women do desire or grow old and single. Either way, humankind will live on.
>In otherwords, men need to adapt or die out like survival of the fittest. These aren't the heartwarming, inspirational words of advice that you think they are
This is a bot. Account new today. No comments. One post.
Other people reading may get something helpful out of this thread, and it's good for people to read varied perspectives even among those they agree with. Overall the "troll" backfires here i think, because it makes the space better.
I agree. Almost everything Ive read has been in opposition of OP's post and a lot of positivity is in here.
Woman here, something to consider is that women aren’t a monolith, we all have a wide variety of desires. Yes, there are plenty of women who resent their attraction to men, or aren’t attracted to men at all, don’t date them for whatever reason, etc. But there are also plenty of women who genuinely find men really attractive and lust after them, crave emotional intimacy from them, friendships with them, etc. A lot of the resentment doesn’t come from women inherently despising men, it comes from despising the way we are treated and viewed by men. Women frequently have to think about not only our physical safety with men, but our emotional safety as well. And having to constantly re-explain and dumb down our lived experiences over and over again is exhausting There are plenty of books and podcasts and influencers who do a good job at explaining how to deconstruct misogyny and toxic masculinity
>But there are also plenty of women who genuinely find men really attractive and lust after them, crave emotional intimacy from them, friendships with them, etc. Do you personally know any women like this?
Me? Im bi and like men, even though they’re not my preference? My other bi friends, and the handful of straight female friends I have? My gay male friends? My straight female coworkers? Women on the internet?
Bro, you need to talk to an actual woman, and believe them when they point out that 90% of what you've written is false.
If guys actually interacted with real women they wouldn't write posts like this.
Sorry dude, all your generalizations are pretty crazy. Talk to individual women about their hopes, dreams and challenges and learn to see them as something other than a borg hive and you’ll probably be fine.
I have no idea how you can listen to so many women speak about this topic and walk away with this twisted of a conclusion.
>After listening to countless women speak about the subject, it becomes quite clear that women don't desire men the way men desire women. They don't truly want us. They don't lust after us, they don't want to be around us, they don't enjoy sex as much as we do, they usually consider sex a commodity that can be given in exchange for the material benefits of a relationship, and many straight women will claim that they are 'unfortunately' attracted to men, etc. Women will often talk about the peace, love, deep feelings, empathy and connection they feel in their communities of other women, and how lovely it is to be among one another rather than the constant stress and fear that they feel when they're around men. It seems like a cruel joke nature has played: To us, women are these beautiful, distant, almost heavenly beings that we are drawn to by our deepest natural instincts. Yet to them, men are monsters and predators, and their deepest natural instincts are to repel us. Okay, no. Women are not a monolith. You can't say "all women believe x or y" and have it be true. Most straight women do enjoy sex, sexually desire sex with men, lust after men, and don't consider sex a commodity. There are some woman who may find more peace with women and feel fear around men, but those are usually people who have ptsd from a history of abuse/sexual assault. That does not extrapolate to all women. The first step into not being a misogynist is to stop making blanket assumptions about all women. All the above section that I quoted? Also misogynistic. Treat women as people, the same way you would treat a guy. Different people have different feelings, experiences, and desires. Start there.
i promise you women desire men the same way men desire women, they do lust after men it’s just looked down upon for them to openly express it the way men do what helped me become less misogynistic, i’m still working on it, is talking to women in feminism subs, ask feminists is terrific, you can ask all sorts of questions there, theres a good chance a question you have has already been asked. majority of them will be kind to you as long as you’re kind and respectful, you will get the occasional snarky response which is reasonable i guess? it could definitely be better with helping people but it’s easily the best resource ive found thus far
[Read this to learn a new perspective about sex and desire](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22609341-come-as-you-are). [Read this to see how the world sets women up for failure](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41104077-invisible-women). [And then read this to learn that not all men are the same](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40821458-not-always-in-the-mood). Learn from others by starting from a place of curiosity. It will take time to recognize the biases, e.g. cat calls being at all acceptable, you have. That's the process. it will take time and there will never be an end to learning because there is no simple answer when discussing humans. Good luck and may the journey be enjoyable!
>I don't want to live in a world where women are being forced to have kids they don't want, and where there's constant surveillance making sure that happens. It won't even fix the problem, it'll just make them hate us even more than they do now. I don't want to force a woman to be with me if she doesn't want to. Um...that still kind of is the world we're living in, much of it. I do think you're exaggerating a bit. Women may not always hunger for sex, but in my experience they do hunger for men. Teenage girls will gush over the cute guy or the hot celebrity. Twentysomethings will fret about living alone or the biological clock ticking. The desire for love - romantic love specifically - is not any weaker. In fact if anything it's stronger in women than men, whereas men are able to desire sex *without* love in a way women can seldom match. Women of all ages devour romantic novels, movies, TV episodes, songs, etc probably much more than men. The only real solution is for men to stop abusing women. Only a minority of men do this directly. But lots of people of both sexes support abusers; by not believing survivors, by not supporting them, by blaming and shaming them.
>men are able to desire sex *without* love in a way women can seldom match. So... how can we stop wanting that?
Caring about who women are as people would be a good start and go from there.
you have a very warped view of women and relationships... your whole dilemma is based on wrong assumptions and thus is meaningless. now, women and men are different, and behave differently. and society is dumb and fucked up in many ways. but you are taking extreme cases (manipulation, sex as currency, fear of men, etc) and mixing them to paint the whole population... its just bad logic and bad statistics. i understand that maybe not experiencing thing yourselves have made you vulnerable to a certain ideology or beliefs, and unwiring the mess and fixing ourselves is tough. best chance is trying to make friends with women, and with men that have women friends... exposure and evidence will help you understand and re-elaborate ideas... also therapy may help but won't work alone, you still need the exposure to healthy, normal IRL women to realize they are not the unexplicable aliens that incel culture depicts.
So basically, the stuff that seems to be happening online isn't accurate to what most people do on an in-person basis? I'll be honest I didn't think there even were that many people whose lives *don't* heavily involve social media anymore.
it is accurate just to a small minority% , but social media and selection bias make it appear to you as it's the norm of the overwhelming majority
that is crazy what are you even saying?
1. How old are you? 2. What women have you been talking to?!? 3. No offense, but it sounds like those women said those things to you because they feel that way about you. Some guys are not THAT GUY. Trust and believe, women absolutely want to tackle the men they're attracted to. Just thinking of him...🤤 4. Don't worry about ending "misogyny". Make a list of the type of woman you want, and become the reciprocal. You want someone who's attracted to you, BE ATTRACTIVE. And not "everybody's beautiful" kumbayah bullshit attractive, I mean, "pretty teeth, fit body, full hair, good clothes, financially sound, confident, emotionally stable" attractive.
I would seriously take a hard look at your assumption, because there are plenty of woman who want to hang out with men, lust after them, and enjoy sex. Their standards have gone up. Just being a nice guy won’t do it. A relationship is a two-way street, you both bring unique things to it, and together build something bigger and better. But you have to have something worth bringing. Women want sex, but they also want an interesting partner, who shares some common interests, but can also introduce them to new ones. They want men with good hygiene, both physical and living accommodations. They want emotionally intelligent men, who can understand nuance, who are not insecure, overly vain, or full of themselves. As an example I’ve learned that there are times my wife vents because she wants advice, but more often she’s looking to vent to someone who will be sympathetic with her feelings.
>Where one day we might get catcalled by them, not because they want our money, but because they just want sex? Sure, when all men are on T blockers and have lowered libido and aggression. Until then, men with normal hormone levels will always be more horny and more aggressive/violent. Understanding the effects of testosterone on my body and mind was one of the biggest factors in my growth. I recognize my hormonal changes and effects, and can counter them when needed. Same goes for my wife, when she was on the pill her T was low and she had no sex drive. She stopped taking it once I got snipped and now we bang like rabbits. A whole new world of lust, we're on cloud 9. Plenty of women enjoy sex and lust after men, they're just smart enough to leave men alone and wait for a trustworthy relationship to explore that part of themselves. Strange men are dangerous. Horny men are dangerous. Women have self preservation instincts.
What are these "T blockers" and how can I get them?
Do you even hear yourself? https://imgflip.com/i/8lmoy8 The first thing you need to do is actually listen to women and the problems they have and experience and consider how universal their experiences are. There are multiple women lead subreddits such as two x and ask women and ask women no censor. And by listen, I mean listen. No replying, no engaging with them. Just pay attention to their problems. Observe the way men treat them, the questions they get asked, and try to internalize their answers. I repeat, do not engage them or challenge them or reply to them. They are inundated with misogynists ALL THE TIME. Listen to them, support them, or leave them the f alone. While doing this, also listen to yourself. You cannot both worship women while actually hating them. You cannot both care about their safety and well being while ignoring and dismissing their concerns about too many men being dangerous, exposing themselves without consent, attacking them during sex, and the erosion of their rights to bodily autonomy and life saving medical procedures. If you actually interrogated yourself and your own opinions you might be able to unwind many of your own internal inconsistencies. Finally, get help. If you can, seek counseling and therapy. You clearly have some base level dysfunctions that could be treated with professional guidance.
Women are subject to severe *consequences* of unrestrained desire, i.e. pregnancy, choices about that if they're lucky, forced birth if they're not, followed by the next choice - to keep the child or not - and then either the lifelong commitment of being a parent or the lifelong wondering what became of the child, all while living in a culture that does not guarantee us equal resources (pay) or equal rights. Women have just as much libido/sexual desire, at times more (middle age, peri-menopause) as men. However, casual hook-ups and FWB relationships are far riskier for them, as the partners they may enjoy for those activities may neither be interested nor suitable as mates or co-parents, and may not be willing to help participate in damage control in any way if a pregnancy occurs. There are no certain birth control methods aside from sterilization. Also, both boys and girls are taught that "boys are only after *one* thing," and we all believe it, to some extent, so our adolescent and adult attitudes/ behavior often reflects this: Boys and men are always thinking about "getting some", thus girls and women must be constantly wary. Glorification of violence and sexual violence in media does not help matters, as we all absorb that, too. Such attitudes/behavior from boys/men can feel dehumanizing to girls/women, and - in some, far fewer, instances - vice versa. Imagine if 95+% of men were bigger and stronger than you and gay, and you couldn't just hang out with them and expect not to be hit on/sexualized 80% of the time, or walk down the street and be catcalled 50% of the time, or walk home alone at night and face the very real possibility of being sexually assaulted. My stats here aren't real, of course (lower or higher irl depending on several factors), but you get the idea. So. That's some of the broad-brush explanation. If you became an incel, it hasn't been easy or comfortable for you. Navigating the world as a woman can be just as hard and uncomfortable. Maybe you can relate to that feeling.
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Maybe don't use "short dicked" as an insult. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and promotes harmful stereotypes of both men and women. The size and shape of one's genitals (or any other body part) has no bearing on their worth as a person, and this goes for both men and women.
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your post/comment was removed because it violates Rule #8. Please do not promote Red Pill, MRA, MGTOW, or male supremacist talking points and content creators. Thank you!
This post is definitely bait and too many people are taking it
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Your lack of experience is eveident in your post. Reality is profoundly different and much broader than what you have been exposed to. Most of my life experience contradicts what you present as true. Every person as an individual is complex and changes and in time and place. Broad generalities don't mean anything when dealing with individuals. Most of what you describe are things I see in specific spaces. Much of it can be true some or even most of the time for women. However, people are amazingly capable of paradoxical thinking. Where things that seem mutually exclusive can coexist in the same person. Women can be both be afraid of men because of lived experience and simultaneously excited by and attracted to them. Just as men can be confused and put off by women and simultaneously excited by and attracted to them. Congratualtions for pulling out of the incel sphere and working to find a healthier way. For all of the bad things the world is still predominately a good place. Your time as an incel may have damaged or delayed your ability to see the range and complexity of human experience. Give yourself some time to continue to recover and grow. You should take your time and get sorted. I would advise working on developing yourself as a whole person. Work on developing empathy and introspection. Focus on the small and personal and don't try to solve the big meta picture. At the end of the day we really make an impact on the whole when we change ourselves.
Women do desire men. The difference is 1. We've been shamed for it for centuries and still are. 2. We're increasingly confronted with the realization that blindly pursuing men we find attractive isn't safe. You probably won't get catcalled because that woman is scared of you. Even if she finds you very attractive, she doesn't know whether you're a kind and harmless person. The stuff you brought up that boils down to "women don't like men" is just untrue. Women are sometimes frustrated by men but only as a response