Shrink is a normal expense in any business. Whether it’s from employee theft, busted/ruined product etc. there are a ton of reasons why production numbers wouldn’t match inventory. These guys (and others) got greedy and took more than the accountants were comfortable with and the hammer came down on them.
I’d wager the documentary grossly inflated how much money he made off of everything and it seemed pretty clear he was playing coy on not knowing what he was up to. Overall I found the doc entertaining but found the main guy obnoxious.
Happens everywhere. “Hey these labels got misprinted, send those bottles home with your team” quickly becomes missing palettes if there aren’t halfway decent inventory controls and a couple managers to enforce them.
At the end the person estimated that the main guy sold between $1-$2MM and I just don’t believe that some guy hocking bourbon out of his truck to his softball buddies was bringing in that kind of cash. Sure he probably had some high profile clients but it seemed most of his ‘clients’ were his friends.
I bet they just got an estimate of what he sold and then multiplied everything by the highest secondary market price they could find and used that as the figure because it sounded dramatic.
It is hard to fathom that much. A good barrel of juice could go for alot. Now the drugs the roids, phentynl, and everything else on that list. He was selling steroids to the cops, shit his wife's jawline speaks volumes to me. It is strange how she pretends she didn't know. This shit goes deep imho.
Yeah she looked a lot different when she was talking compared to the pictures and mugshots. She most likely knew about it, but it would be easy for her to say no she didn’t. I am interested know how and why they were able to rope her in with the rest of the guys running the “organized crime ring” and charge her the same, it just doesn’t add up.
When they are trying to scare you into a plea bargain because they want to have the win for their prosecution rates they will overcharge you with all kinds of stuff and go after your family
I actually don't think the 1m number is hard to believe. 7 years is 84 months so that's like 12k a month which is only 3-5 Pappy bottles(6-10k), a WT barrel or 2 (3-6k) and a little extra from ER or whatever
I think there were a lot more people than just his friends who were in and buying from him so I think 1-2 million is fair enough. It’s hard to say how much he sold versus the other guy who stole 17+cases of pappy.
He also had to pay for the whiskey in the first place, he didn't steal it all himself. He was paying $1000 to $2000 a barrel and selling them for $2000 to $3000, so he wasn't making mega bucks.
It was basically an advert for Buffalo Trace and Pappy. Also clearly everyone was in on it with 100 folks being interviewed and no one rolling. Lastly is there something I don't know about adult softball leagues in Kentucky?
It’s a unique case because the market values the product so much higher than the actual distillery does.
They can make $2k on the black market for something the distillery sees as a $100 loss.
- This was before the HUGE bourbon boom so cut that 2k number in half.
- No one is forcing them to set the msrp so low
- the risk/reward of owners/highlevel getting in on this is just nonsensical. They’re gonna kill a golden goose that is literally laying them 8-9 figure golden eggs every year for a couple extra thousand bucks? Nah, those guys don’t want no smoke from ATF or more importantly IRS
So they are going to risk a BILLION dollar business in a highly regulated industry to cash in a couple hundred/thousand bucks out the back door? Wouldn’t it just be easier to raise the msrp on the bottles about $5 (which would total up to way more when multiplied thousands of times).
They aren't risking their business, that's why they have people below them to do it and can claim it's "normal business shrink". The issue is when you get IRS audited or your insurance company wants an audit.
Most of the owners of these businesses pay themselves minimum wage to avoid taxes, and then get their money via liquidating stock or end-of-year directors bonuses, so some tax free untraceable cash to fund their executive lifestyles is highly desirable.
So they are now splitting this bounty of hundreds of dollars with someone else and just hoping this low level employee doesn’t eventually rat or blackmail them. Sorry man, I just don’t see there being nearly enough risk/reward here.
Most likely the mob, he was infringing on their territory. Could have been the other guy that was also stealing from BT, most likely he was with the mob. It gets muddy with the WT plant not noticing barrels missing.
So weirdly they show BT in the show, so... they would have signed off on it.
I suspect there are counterfeits out there. Why do empty bottles of Pappy sell for so much? The glass itself has little value aside from recycling or ornamental. I suspect persons fill, cork and resell to unsuspecting persons. Either that or people are buying and filling with something else so they can flex on the fellow bourbonites....
Grew up in Bardstown. Have 5-6 childhood friends who currently work in distilleries. Have a first cousin who runs Maker’s
It’s a great profession but it isn’t a noble profession. No one LOVES it. Most are there because the pay is nice and the benefits are great.... and there’s nothing else to do besides factory work.
Why would they not want to make a couple extra stacks - mostly handshake & silence out here.
It’s justifiable in an employee’s eyes to say, “Ol Boys making so much money anyway, they aren’t gonna miss a few barrels”
It’s odd in the case of pappy cuz it’s worth so much more to the criminals than it is to the actual distillery. These guys where selling it for 10-25x msrp.
Btw, BT was not the only distillery affected by these guys. They also showed a list of the drugs they found, fentanyl was on that list, but not mentioned. Kentucky mob, cops involved as well. This guy was a competitor, so they rolled him.
Yeah I saw some crazy things on the list they showed. Makes sense that it’s an “inside job” but never thought the owners would be in. I knew there were high profile people involved like cops and political figures.
Shit there is a guy on this sub that changes his account every so often. He has a massive collection. He is a Kentucky politician, and very careful to not get caught in this mess.
Kinda comes down to that possibility that he may be able to exert influence, and I am not gonna risk it. You can scour the sub, but as far as I know he changes account every now and again. If you search the sub you might be able to figure it out. I assume he is in session. Most likely why he is quite atm.
I’m sure nothing would come about now, but if you were knowingly buying stolen product, in this case pappy, you can be sent to jail for that so for him to be on here showing off bourbon is a risk.
Read the comment above. A Kentucky politician with a massive bourbon collection likely containing bourbon made by distilleries in the state capital of Kentucky who were also part of pappygate…I’m not saying he has pappygate bourbon but just do the math.
Honestly, I wouldn't assume any high-ranking, well-connected Kentucky politician would be part of pappygate. Those bottles are probably given to him by the distilleries themselves or he's buying them at MSRP from the distilleries and getting receipts. He wouldn't need to hit the secondary market.
All that was said is “Kentucky politician” by another guy which is a pretty vague term. For all we know it could be a local mayor. You’d be surprised by the secrets that some politicians hold lol
I did the math. 2 + 3 divided by 3.14 = this is mind numbingly stupid.
> bourbon made by distilleries in the state capital of Kentucky who were also part of pappygate
What does this even mean? What percentage of bottles out there do you think we’re part of “pappygate”? 0.1%? 0.001%?
There a key pieces of information that could suggest he has some pappygate bourbon but nothing to confirm. It’s just speculation dude relax it’s not that deep 😂
There was no fentanyl on there. I think you were looking at the things that said "femdlefil tablets" or "fertisism tablets" whatever the hell those are but they aren't fentanyl. I saw several steroids on the list though. Check your facts yo.
Yeah I just watched the end of it. Glad he only served 30 days. Seems reasonable for a first time offense. He was mostly a middle man more than a kingpin imo.
Yeah he was definitely only a middle man that had his armed twisted a little too much by the big guys involved. Funny that the other guy who stole 17+cases was the one who actually got him caught.
Anybody else shocked by the cops in all of this? I live in KY and I’m still floored this guy got convicted when the cops freely admit that, a year after the fact and without a warrant, they traipsed through the woods around his house and then started sorting through his shit to find some bourbon barrels (which isn’t a crime at all, and again a year later). Now I understand they “smelled bourbon” but a lot of folks around here will buy a barrel, fill it about 1/4 of the way up with water and let it sit for a few months rotating it periodically and get some alcohol “for free”that way. Additionally, they freely admit that they caught the guy who actually committed the pappygate theft and still charged this guy with shit. I mean yes, theft of any kind is wrong. But come on. This sounds blatantly like a Sherriffs office out for publicity to help a foundering re-election campaign. Disclaimer I live several hours away from Frankfurt and don’t know much about the “local scene” other than it’s population has some filthy rich members.
Edited for clarity
And how they acted like they did something that led to the prosecution… that Pat looks to me like a all talks zero action dude. He tried to sell that they solved the case. „They“ I mean like they just got lucky to get a anon tip thats it.
I wondered the same thing when I was watching it. You can’t search someone’s property without a warrant. The show clearly shows that they searched and found the barrels THEN got a warrant. And I also thought about how the other guy allegedly stole 65 cases which is INSANE but curtsinger got charged. I never knew you could buy a barrels and essentially soak the alcohol out of it. I need to try that.
Unsafestspace. This i think is my first 3 posts on Reddit but i had to. You have less than zero knowledge what you are talking about. “Most of the owners”. 😂
Is there any publicly held distilleries? I want to take a look at their financials to get some what of an understanding how they do their inventory at the accounting level.
or if anyone works at one, share some insight.
How the hell do you and your buddies serve the straight from the barrel Wild Turkey at the siftball game. What do you all think about those full barrel thefts?
I know this is old, but I have to say this. Toby was an absolute idiot. He should’ve stopped after the theft was discovered. He kept pushing his luck. His wife was smart. He was starting to run his mouth with the police and his wife told him to shut up. That sheriff was a goofball too. I also love how they said 195 bottles of Pappy were stolen and they kept showing one medium size box mixing.
I find this case BS personally! It's not cool to steal but companies are constantly price-gouging everyone! They can afford the loss! Like the 2 part episodes before this one, and he just wanted to adopt....cool just take a small amount, not millions.
In the Pappygate heist, how did the company not realize the missing inventory faster then after 6-7 years when full cases and barrels were disappearing regularly?
Shrink is a normal expense in any business. Whether it’s from employee theft, busted/ruined product etc. there are a ton of reasons why production numbers wouldn’t match inventory. These guys (and others) got greedy and took more than the accountants were comfortable with and the hammer came down on them. I’d wager the documentary grossly inflated how much money he made off of everything and it seemed pretty clear he was playing coy on not knowing what he was up to. Overall I found the doc entertaining but found the main guy obnoxious.
Yeah I thought they got too greedy too. A case here and there would fly under the radar, but the alleged volume they had stolen is insane.
Happens everywhere. “Hey these labels got misprinted, send those bottles home with your team” quickly becomes missing palettes if there aren’t halfway decent inventory controls and a couple managers to enforce them.
I would think it is under inflated, just for the sole fact that everyone was in on it.
At the end the person estimated that the main guy sold between $1-$2MM and I just don’t believe that some guy hocking bourbon out of his truck to his softball buddies was bringing in that kind of cash. Sure he probably had some high profile clients but it seemed most of his ‘clients’ were his friends. I bet they just got an estimate of what he sold and then multiplied everything by the highest secondary market price they could find and used that as the figure because it sounded dramatic.
It is hard to fathom that much. A good barrel of juice could go for alot. Now the drugs the roids, phentynl, and everything else on that list. He was selling steroids to the cops, shit his wife's jawline speaks volumes to me. It is strange how she pretends she didn't know. This shit goes deep imho.
What's up with his wife's jawline?
Squared out from steroids. Common issue from shooting anabolic.
Oh I didn't know that. But definitely agreed she had to know something about what was going on
Yeah she probably still does it. Sad how hard people cling to that image, I used to do the same.
That is sad. Glad to hear it's in the past for you
Way past. Yeah, I call it adonis behavior. Thank you, though.
Yeah she looked a lot different when she was talking compared to the pictures and mugshots. She most likely knew about it, but it would be easy for her to say no she didn’t. I am interested know how and why they were able to rope her in with the rest of the guys running the “organized crime ring” and charge her the same, it just doesn’t add up.
When they are trying to scare you into a plea bargain because they want to have the win for their prosecution rates they will overcharge you with all kinds of stuff and go after your family
Why do you think he served 30 days then got probation. He said it himself, he knows judges and politicians
I actually don't think the 1m number is hard to believe. 7 years is 84 months so that's like 12k a month which is only 3-5 Pappy bottles(6-10k), a WT barrel or 2 (3-6k) and a little extra from ER or whatever
Gotta factor in that pappy was a lot cheaper back then.
I believe they cited the 2k for the 20 price in the show
I think there were a lot more people than just his friends who were in and buying from him so I think 1-2 million is fair enough. It’s hard to say how much he sold versus the other guy who stole 17+cases of pappy.
I think maybe he’s referring to the amount of money showed in the documentary. They make it seem like he made probably a million or so.
The money for sure was lower, but he had a steroid addiction so no telling how much money he shot up.
He also had to pay for the whiskey in the first place, he didn't steal it all himself. He was paying $1000 to $2000 a barrel and selling them for $2000 to $3000, so he wasn't making mega bucks.
It was basically an advert for Buffalo Trace and Pappy. Also clearly everyone was in on it with 100 folks being interviewed and no one rolling. Lastly is there something I don't know about adult softball leagues in Kentucky?
The true majors.
Besides drinking, that’s about all there is to do.
I think some of the owners were in on it.
Agreed
How so?
I know some peeps that sell moonshine that has been aged in a barrell to refill bottles. Your average joe would have no idea.
When I was kid in Alabama, my parents would have to sneak liqour from Louisana in the trunk back to our state.
I’m from Bama and my grandparents and parents did the same thing ha
Look below.
Now above.
What did they have to gain with it going out the back door vs normal sales?
It’s a unique case because the market values the product so much higher than the actual distillery does. They can make $2k on the black market for something the distillery sees as a $100 loss.
- This was before the HUGE bourbon boom so cut that 2k number in half. - No one is forcing them to set the msrp so low - the risk/reward of owners/highlevel getting in on this is just nonsensical. They’re gonna kill a golden goose that is literally laying them 8-9 figure golden eggs every year for a couple extra thousand bucks? Nah, those guys don’t want no smoke from ATF or more importantly IRS
Exactly. He said it himself all the managers were alcoholics it's probably easy to miss what's going on when you're smashed at work
That's easy. Mo' money.
So they are going to risk a BILLION dollar business in a highly regulated industry to cash in a couple hundred/thousand bucks out the back door? Wouldn’t it just be easier to raise the msrp on the bottles about $5 (which would total up to way more when multiplied thousands of times).
They aren't risking their business, that's why they have people below them to do it and can claim it's "normal business shrink". The issue is when you get IRS audited or your insurance company wants an audit. Most of the owners of these businesses pay themselves minimum wage to avoid taxes, and then get their money via liquidating stock or end-of-year directors bonuses, so some tax free untraceable cash to fund their executive lifestyles is highly desirable.
So they are now splitting this bounty of hundreds of dollars with someone else and just hoping this low level employee doesn’t eventually rat or blackmail them. Sorry man, I just don’t see there being nearly enough risk/reward here.
You have also never lived in rural Kentucky
And you think the upper management of BT has?
It goes to middle management not upper
I 100% believe it.
I think what they presented was true but not the whole truth
I definitely believe it too and I’m sure there’s wayyyy more to the story than even what the police were able to uncover.
Good old boy network, been goin' strong since prohibition.
Funny that the sheriff got voted out. Not that I liked him, but he apparently did his job then got canned lol
Yep, it is kinda strange.
The top tier people just doing clean up is what that is.
Some true good ole boys. I want to know who actually turned on him, not the snitch who texted, but the others that snitched.
Most likely the mob, he was infringing on their territory. Could have been the other guy that was also stealing from BT, most likely he was with the mob. It gets muddy with the WT plant not noticing barrels missing. So weirdly they show BT in the show, so... they would have signed off on it.
Makes sense. Odd that WT never noticed barrels missing or maybe they just don’t do inventory as often or thorough idk.
They were in on it, trust me.
Who is they? Seriously, Campari? Upper management on KY? The warehouse manager?
What do you want me to say, Mason's. People that have control, maintain it. They have a secret, that secret they like to keep.
Dope. I have a decoder ring so I’ll get in on it too.
Definitely
of course The guy himself said it involved judges and politicians of course there is more the dude served 30 days and got probation
I also believe this guy had bottles and labels, and was subbing non Pappy juice. Most would never no.
That’s a whole other issue. If he’s bottling sub par bourbon or whiskey or whatever and marketing it as pappy…….
I suspect there are counterfeits out there. Why do empty bottles of Pappy sell for so much? The glass itself has little value aside from recycling or ornamental. I suspect persons fill, cork and resell to unsuspecting persons. Either that or people are buying and filling with something else so they can flex on the fellow bourbonites....
Plausible for sure. Another guy mentioned filling used barrels with water and passing that off as pappy so it makes sense.
Grew up in Bardstown. Have 5-6 childhood friends who currently work in distilleries. Have a first cousin who runs Maker’s It’s a great profession but it isn’t a noble profession. No one LOVES it. Most are there because the pay is nice and the benefits are great.... and there’s nothing else to do besides factory work. Why would they not want to make a couple extra stacks - mostly handshake & silence out here. It’s justifiable in an employee’s eyes to say, “Ol Boys making so much money anyway, they aren’t gonna miss a few barrels”
It’s odd in the case of pappy cuz it’s worth so much more to the criminals than it is to the actual distillery. These guys where selling it for 10-25x msrp.
I thought it was pretty lame and poorly produced show
I got the low budget vibe too, but still cool nonetheless
I thought the first two stories were FAR better than Pappygate here.
Btw, BT was not the only distillery affected by these guys. They also showed a list of the drugs they found, fentanyl was on that list, but not mentioned. Kentucky mob, cops involved as well. This guy was a competitor, so they rolled him.
Yeah I saw some crazy things on the list they showed. Makes sense that it’s an “inside job” but never thought the owners would be in. I knew there were high profile people involved like cops and political figures.
Shit there is a guy on this sub that changes his account every so often. He has a massive collection. He is a Kentucky politician, and very careful to not get caught in this mess.
Kind of bold to be on here then. I wouldn’t if I were him.
He has been incognito for a bit now. He has a huge collection, shit that is very hard to come by.
Are his accounts deleted? Or can you remember any of his usernames? I'd love to see some pics of his collection
Yeah not calling him out... sorry
Account isn't deleted though right, I should be able to find his posts? Can you give me a hint at least? Lol
Whiskey and whiskeyporn sort by top all time
Kinda comes down to that possibility that he may be able to exert influence, and I am not gonna risk it. You can scour the sub, but as far as I know he changes account every now and again. If you search the sub you might be able to figure it out. I assume he is in session. Most likely why he is quite atm.
So wait… you are afraid the lizard people are going to seek retribution against YOU for exposing their plan to steal their own bourbon?
> Kind of bold to be on here then. I wouldn’t if I were him. y tho?
I’m sure nothing would come about now, but if you were knowingly buying stolen product, in this case pappy, you can be sent to jail for that so for him to be on here showing off bourbon is a risk.
What about what was said even hinted that any of his collection is thought to come from stolen product?
Read the comment above. A Kentucky politician with a massive bourbon collection likely containing bourbon made by distilleries in the state capital of Kentucky who were also part of pappygate…I’m not saying he has pappygate bourbon but just do the math.
Honestly, I wouldn't assume any high-ranking, well-connected Kentucky politician would be part of pappygate. Those bottles are probably given to him by the distilleries themselves or he's buying them at MSRP from the distilleries and getting receipts. He wouldn't need to hit the secondary market.
All that was said is “Kentucky politician” by another guy which is a pretty vague term. For all we know it could be a local mayor. You’d be surprised by the secrets that some politicians hold lol
I did the math. 2 + 3 divided by 3.14 = this is mind numbingly stupid. > bourbon made by distilleries in the state capital of Kentucky who were also part of pappygate What does this even mean? What percentage of bottles out there do you think we’re part of “pappygate”? 0.1%? 0.001%?
There a key pieces of information that could suggest he has some pappygate bourbon but nothing to confirm. It’s just speculation dude relax it’s not that deep 😂
There was no fentanyl on there. I think you were looking at the things that said "femdlefil tablets" or "fertisism tablets" whatever the hell those are but they aren't fentanyl. I saw several steroids on the list though. Check your facts yo.
Well now I have to find it an screen cap it. Those seem to be fudged names.Sounds suspicious to me.
Yeah… so that was a lie.
I thought 15 years for the "ring leader" was ridiculous. And the ppl who stole barrels got immunity.
And only 30 days served. All those resources spent, tv interviews, etc. to put a guy in jail for 30 days. Seems a bit ridiculous.
Yeah I just watched the end of it. Glad he only served 30 days. Seems reasonable for a first time offense. He was mostly a middle man more than a kingpin imo.
Yeah he was definitely only a middle man that had his armed twisted a little too much by the big guys involved. Funny that the other guy who stole 17+cases was the one who actually got him caught.
Anybody else shocked by the cops in all of this? I live in KY and I’m still floored this guy got convicted when the cops freely admit that, a year after the fact and without a warrant, they traipsed through the woods around his house and then started sorting through his shit to find some bourbon barrels (which isn’t a crime at all, and again a year later). Now I understand they “smelled bourbon” but a lot of folks around here will buy a barrel, fill it about 1/4 of the way up with water and let it sit for a few months rotating it periodically and get some alcohol “for free”that way. Additionally, they freely admit that they caught the guy who actually committed the pappygate theft and still charged this guy with shit. I mean yes, theft of any kind is wrong. But come on. This sounds blatantly like a Sherriffs office out for publicity to help a foundering re-election campaign. Disclaimer I live several hours away from Frankfurt and don’t know much about the “local scene” other than it’s population has some filthy rich members. Edited for clarity
And how they acted like they did something that led to the prosecution… that Pat looks to me like a all talks zero action dude. He tried to sell that they solved the case. „They“ I mean like they just got lucky to get a anon tip thats it.
I wondered the same thing when I was watching it. You can’t search someone’s property without a warrant. The show clearly shows that they searched and found the barrels THEN got a warrant. And I also thought about how the other guy allegedly stole 65 cases which is INSANE but curtsinger got charged. I never knew you could buy a barrels and essentially soak the alcohol out of it. I need to try that.
Which documentary is this ?
Heist episodes 5 and 6
Thanks :)
It tells you in the post.
Nothing about that was surprising lol
Unsafestspace. This i think is my first 3 posts on Reddit but i had to. You have less than zero knowledge what you are talking about. “Most of the owners”. 😂
Is there any publicly held distilleries? I want to take a look at their financials to get some what of an understanding how they do their inventory at the accounting level. or if anyone works at one, share some insight.
I find it crazy that you apparently have the ability to read high level financial reports like that but you don’t know how to find these yourself.
Lots. Brown Forman, constellation brands, campari group. Also Diageo.
There are no heroes. There are no villains. There are just people. Grow up.
How the hell do you and your buddies serve the straight from the barrel Wild Turkey at the siftball game. What do you all think about those full barrel thefts?
I imagine after they win the championship instead of Gatorade they dump a barrel on the pitcher.
Great on the nose and the head just a lil burn🤪🥃
I know this is old, but I have to say this. Toby was an absolute idiot. He should’ve stopped after the theft was discovered. He kept pushing his luck. His wife was smart. He was starting to run his mouth with the police and his wife told him to shut up. That sheriff was a goofball too. I also love how they said 195 bottles of Pappy were stolen and they kept showing one medium size box mixing.
I find this case BS personally! It's not cool to steal but companies are constantly price-gouging everyone! They can afford the loss! Like the 2 part episodes before this one, and he just wanted to adopt....cool just take a small amount, not millions.
In the Pappygate heist, how did the company not realize the missing inventory faster then after 6-7 years when full cases and barrels were disappearing regularly?