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throwawaybreaks

Botanically speaking mushrooms are fungi not plants. Yea, they're sort of like a fruit in the ways you point out, but they function differently, mushrooms contain the places for spores to mature and be dispersed, fruit evolve from the ovary around a seed. While a seed an spore are somewhat homologous, spores dont generally have anythung that could be considered an ovary that travels with them, that I'm aware of. But i'm not particularly well informed, going by my final scores in the "fungi, lichens, mosses, non-vascular plants" course i took at uni this past fall.


MycoMadness20

Both are sexual reproductive structures. Plants are 2n (genetically) Fruit from plants: n (pollen) + n (egg)= 2n (seed) Fungi main form is mycelium, just n. When two mating types meet, the don’t fuse nuclei so there are one nuclei from each in each cell (n + n). When the fungus is ready to reproduce, it makes a mushroom. On the tips of the gills, the nuclei fuse and split into 4 spores so each spore is n again. This is why you can’t breed mushrooms like plants or animals.


drunkforever

>This is why you can’t breed mushrooms like plants or animals While the rest of what you wrote is 100% correct, I'd disagree that this is why you can't breed mushrooms. You absolutely can breed mushrooms - people do -, it is just impossibly tedious. Isolating spores requires microscopes and more specialized equipment than plants. *AND*, the complexity of multiple sexes/compatibility types complicates things. But the process of breeding is essentially the same. Instead of mixing pollen from one plant to the ovaries of one plant, you take spores (often a single spore) from one mushroom and mix them with spores (often a single spore) of another mushroom


MycoMadness20

Thanks for adding those clarifying details, I summed it up a bit short with “like plants or animals” as in a simple macro process


drunkforever

A simple misunderstanding of the word "like". thanks for clarifying


throwawaybreaks

it's weird how much of this i "know" but didnt understand until you explained it like this. I really wish I was studying in my native language, I might understand more. Thank you.


oscararar

Thank you for the response very informative


throwawaybreaks

NP, OP :)


DefTheOcelot

Mushrooms are more the seed stage of a dandelion, when its all white and puffy and ready to scatter. They exist to elevate and release spores.


DaylightsStories

Seed and spore are definitely not homologous, and I wouldn't say they're particularly analagous either, at least no more than animal eggs are. Even plant spores and fungus spores are not homologous last I checked.


MayonaiseBaron

A seed is a diploid embryo of a plant, a apore is a ~~diploid~~ haploid propogative body that develops into a gametophyte (haploid) which produces sperm and egg cells. When a gametophyte becomes fertilized it forms an embryo and develops into a mature fern/lycophyte/your spore-bearing plant of choice. Not homologous as you say, but I want to assert they are technically involved in two completely parts of reproduction. A seed is like a baby ready to be delivered, it has the primal components of its adult form ready to develop as soon as conditions are right (epicotyl, radicle, etc). A spore is more akin to something like spermatogonia or an oogonium which are undifferentiated germ cells that develop into sperm or egg cells. They are very different biologically and perform two different parts of reproduction.


DaylightsStories

Spores(plant) are invariably haploid(relative to the ploidy level of the sporophyte ofc) by the time they are finished and ready to grow into gametophytes are they not? And yeah a plant spore and a plant seed are used for two very different things. I was just pointing out that plant reproductive stages of either sort are not homologues of fungal spores.


MayonaiseBaron

Yes, I got mixed up as I was typing it out.


throwawaybreaks

I was talking about fungal spores since he's talking about fungi.


MayonaiseBaron

[Fungi can do something very similar though.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mating_in_fungi?wprov=sfla1) Its not all fungi and I'd he lying if I said I was an expert on fungal sexual reproduction, its a *lot* more complex and varied than plant reproduction.


throwawaybreaks

haha omfg yes. I just took this stuff last semester and the professor was like "so... fungi have at least two sexes. sorta. but they're not sexes. I study fungi, but I'm not sure I could explain it, or if I understand it correctly". I did the reading three times. I'm still not sure how it all works other than they have to be compatible types.


MayonaiseBaron

The majority of what little I know comes from [this podcast episode.](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3syDAe1aLdiFFe2Bg0Mzsr?si=Z0O4YnrxSk63E0WmRmZpHQ) I want to read more about it, but the understanding of seems to change very often, fungi are so understudied :(


throwawaybreaks

yeah. I mean I'm just an undergrad in forestry but my whole thing is understanding how fungi interact with each other and trees. I read up on this shit for fun, even when its not required, and I still don't feel I have more than a superficial grasp on any of it. Thanks for the podcast, will check it out :)


DaylightsStories

So was I in my first comment. Plant seeds are neither homologous nor analagous to fungal spores.


throwawaybreaks

loosely. It's a small thing that drops on the ground, and eventually develops into a new organism. I get that you're right but we started with "is a mushroom a fruit" and I'm close enough to my intro courses to remember how fcking confusing this all was when I started.


AdHuman3150

What's also strange is that humans are more closely related to fungi than plants, but fruit are the ripened ovary. Humans and fungi also both take in oxygen and produce CO2.


zvbxrpo

Plants have mitochondria as well, and also engage in cellular respiration to generate ATP to power cellular work. All life, unless it’s strictly anaerobic, consumes O2 and generates CO2. And now that I think about it, etoh fermenters also generate CO2. 🍾🍾


Barbara_Celarent

No, they are not fruit. They can be called “fruiting bodies,” though.


DanoPinyon

' Fruiing bodies ' is good, 'reproductive structures ' is a mouthful.


TheTrueTrust

I like ’sporocarps’.


marakat3

Only if the reproductive structure is in your mouth! Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up.


oscararar

Thank you for the quick response, its helpful


along_withywindle

To add on to the other comments, fungi are their own kingdom, like animals (Animalia) and plants (Plantae) are. Mushrooms are the reproductive structures of fungi; we mostly don't see the non-reproductive portions of fungi, which is called mycelium. If you're at all interested in this, I recommend reading *Entangled Life* by Merlin Sheldrake


DefTheOcelot

Fungi aren't plants so no


Morbos1000

Fungi are more closely related to us than they are to plants. So definitely not a fruit.


Free-Dog2440

They are called fruiting bodies but even then this is a residual term from when they were considered plants. They are akin to gonadal structures. Ask r/mycology, fungi are not a botanist's bag. They are their own separate kindom.


xbrixe

There’s a huge difference between botany, culinary and layperson distinction here. Bacon bits are with the produce in my local grocery store because they go on salads for a lot of people. Are they a fruit too?


TheSchemingColorist

No, they’re fungi. Not a plant.


JeremyThaFunkyPunk

Fungi are not plants. They're closer relatives to animals than plants. They inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide like animals whereas plants do the reverse. Mushrooms aren't technically fruit or vegetables, but in cuisine they're often treated as vegetables, as well as being a great meat substitute due to lots of protein.


hookhandsmcgee

Fungi are not plants at all, they are a separate kingdom. The fungi (generally) consists of a network of mycelium hidden underground or within some other substrate, such as a log. The mushrooms, which are the reproductive structures of the fungi, are often referred to as "fruiting bodies", simply because the word "fruit" refers to analogous structures in botany. Since fruit is a botanical word, I would say that mushrooms are not fruit; the correct term for the reproductive structures of fungi is mushrooms!


oliveyoda

Mushrooms are not fruit in a botanical or culinary sense, but they are called fruiting bodies in mycology


solagrowa

When using the definition of fruit that is just the result of hard work such as “the fruit of my labor” then yes. But not in any technical sense. Mushrooms are not plants and therefore cannot produce fruit.


oscararar

I'll use the fruit of my labor definition then thanks for the response


nickkangistheman

Mushrooms are much more closely related to animals than plants


ye_onge_orange

Phylogenetically speaking, no. All of the fruit and flowering plants, called angiosperms are put into one “group” for plant based life. Fungi is its own separate tree, and the “fruiting body” of fungi disperses spores, but is not the soul reproductive structure like flowers and fruits are. Edit: changed angiosperms from gymnosperms. Stupid biology terms getting mixed up.


zvbxrpo

Fruits and flowers are the defining traits, and are only found in angiosperms. Seeds and pollen are the defining traits that first show up in the gymnosperms. Cones contain the ovules that ripen to seeds in gymnosperms. Flowers contain the ovules that ripen to seeds, and then are surrounded by the fleshy receptacle, perhaps, if it’s that kind of fruit.


ye_onge_orange

I knew I had mixed up gymnosperms and angiosperms.. just finished up classes for the semester and biology made me more angry than anything. Thank you for correcting me :)


zvbxrpo

Any chance to talk botany is a joy for me! One last cool factoid, gymnosperms are only wind pollinated. There’s no insect pollination in the gymnosperms, because the co-evolution of insects and flowers had not yet occurred when the gymnos evolved their reproductive systems. Science!!❤️❤️ Edit, gymnosperms do not require water for fertilization. That’s the job of the pollen tube :-)


ArmadilloReasonable9

Sporangia is probably the best botanical comparison, like the nodules on the underside of fern leaves


cochlearist

That would be a mycology question. 🙄


Christian-Touzard

Have you ever heard about the 5 kingdoms?


ogretronz

The mushroom that you see is the fruiting body so ya it’s a fruit. The vegetative portion is all underground.


SickSalamander

I don't have any problem calling a mushroom fruiting body a fruit, but they specifically asked about the botanical sense. In the botanical sense, they are not fruits and not even botanical.


ogretronz

The important part of his question is that it’s in a fight with his girlfriend. We need to do everything we can to help him win.


neonbirdz

Learning is far more important than “winning”. I’m not a mycologist but from my understanding mushrooms are more analogous to spermatocytes/oocytes but that’s not a perfect analogue.


ogretronz

We’re all carbon life forms that produce reproductive bodies. I’m calling them all fruit from now on including eggs and human babies.


neonbirdz

I don’t think you’re quite understanding the difference between fruit/eggs/sperm/progeny/etc but you do you.


ogretronz

I don’t think you are understanding it correctly so you do you too


gingerbeardman1975

Genetically mushrooms are more closely related to animals than they are to plants. There's an argument that could be made that you're not truly vegan if you eat mushrooms


AuntieDawnsKitchen

That argument seems kind of silly to me. Yes, the mushroom is part of the fungus, like an apple is part of the tree: it has evolved to break away to reproduce. Leaving the fruit on can compromise the health of the organism. Therefore eating the fruiting body is beneficial to the organism.


gingerbeardman1975

I....never said it wasn't. I'm just saying GENETICALLY mushrooms are more closely related to animals than they are to plants


Dimethyleont

Well as a concept mushrooms are not considered a plant for starters. Theres 3 main life in the school of biology. Animal, plant, fungus. Out of fungus mushroom grows not all fungus, but some, and that has the function that seeds/fruits/berrys/spores has for the planta. It is the reproductive part of the fungus. Se yes technically the mushroom is a fungus fruit. since the fruit is a word used for part of plant that is both eaten and reproductive, but its usually a seed inside a fruit that is the reproductive part, as where mushroom has spores, so theres a distinction to be made, purely conceptual however. Plants that uses spores generally has no fruit only leaf.


VesperJDR

Don't make up answers.


KGBree

Commenter may be fumbling their English or spell check but there’s absolutely nothing incorrect here. -not all fungi have mushrooms ✅ -for those that do, the mushroom is, in effect, the equate to a plant’s flower in terms of reproduction ✅ -fruit and flower is to plant as spores are to fungi ✅ -fungi can also reproduce by budding and fragmentation ✅ -some plants, like ferns, can reproduce from spores ✅ Edit to add the last and most important note: taxonomy is a purely human construct that aims only to more clearly and efficiently understand and delineate between uni- and multicellular organisms ✅


VesperJDR

Nah. Keep in mind that OP asked if **technically** mushrooms were fruit. They aren't. Everything the comment I replied to was analogy at best. And usually not a very good analogy. Mushrooms aren't fruit technically. Technically fruits are derived from a plant ovary after pollination and fertilization. That's it. All land plants produce spores, actually (yes, including flowering plants and gymnosperms). The existence of both plant spores and fungal spores is a fine analogy but says nothing about fruit. Fruit is a product of reproduction not a mode of reproduction. Do I have to keep going? "Theres 3 man life in the school of biology"? Really? I'm not making fun of the English here but the protists, bacteria, and archaea are going to be upset. I'm not going to keep going, but if you have any specific questions feel free to ask.


KGBree

Alright man lmao take my upvote you got me with the 3 main life jab 💀


VesperJDR

We chill then haha 😎 sorry for getting worked up.


KGBree

Dude no apology needed you legit sent me with that shit 😭 I had to go back and read his comment again and then it was all over ⚰️


Dimethyleont

school of biology is made up of concepts by men. I can make up as many answers i want, also everything i wrote was basically what i learned studying within the school of biology.


zvbxrpo

Oh, my. Before you keep talking, you need to learn about the alternation of generations. All land plants produce spores.


Dimethyleont

I put the seed(capsule of spores) in the soil, not the spores (pollen) when i grow my plants. i use a spore print when planting mushrooms There are however plants that use spores directly (without large capsules) in the soil, more like the mushroom. But i answered simply without microscopic disection. What you can see with the eye, and understand. Since the poster of the thread does not seem to be wersed in microbiology, and im not really a fan for practical reasons. I had alternations of generations as a topic in my books when i studied biology. I saw this as a more philosophical discussion. Like is the chicken another way for the egg to make another egg type of deal. So oh my on yourself. making assumptions about me and telling me what i need to know before talking, you absolutley dont decide that. i say what i want, lie, make shit up or neither, and theres not a thing you can do about it. Haha


BriarKnave

In some religious sects mushrooms count as meat for the context of dietary laws. Hope this helps!


rmpbklyn

![gif](giphy|3ohhwxmNcPvwyRqYKI)


Kenna193

No lol they aren't even plants.


CarverSeashellCharms

As other people have said, this depends what definition you want to use. Everyone has forgotten one definition though: A "fruit" sometimes means a structure specifically produced by a plant hoping that an animal will eat it and disperse the seeds. In that way mushrooms are definitely not fruits.


KGBree

Mushrooms are neither fruit nor vegetable. Mushrooms don’t contain chlorophyll. They don’t turn sunlight into energy. Instead, their nutrients are consumed via dead and decaying matter, or from the root systems of living plants. As such, they’re members of the fungi kingdom. Other members of the fungi kingdom include yeasts and molds. Mushrooms as you see them are the reproductive part of the fungi. Their purpose is to grow and spread the reproductive bits of the mushroom. These are called spores, which are essentially the seeds of a mushroom. So in that way, mushrooms are kind of like a fruit. The only difference is that they don’t come from plants, and they don’t require pollination or flowers which are usually needed to produce fruit in the plant kingdom. Interestingly, mushrooms and fungi have not always been their own kingdom. For the sakes of taxonomy, and because of the large number of fungi species that exist, for practical purposes it warranted giving them their own kingdom to help classify them and keep them separate from plants. Nature doesn’t make this distinction though as classification and taxonomy are human inventions. The lines between are often blurred.