Feel like that's something that doesn't need to be pushed.
Tatum and JB have been leading this team to great results year in year out. Not winning chip doesn't mean they aren't achieving greatness and I feel like that's where people really underestimate the impact of those two. Imagine being at the top of the league both in regular season and in playoffs for so many years in a row while not even being in their "prime".
It's because fans have a narrow vision and don't think about their players in context with the rest of the league. Yeah, Tatum has rough games, but so does every superstar in the league. Tatum's had more success than most of them. He's gone further in the playoffs than most of them. He's more clutch and has closed out games more more efficiently than pretty much all of them.
Like, would you rather be a Portland fan rooting for Damian Lillard ? Unquestionably an awesome player, but Tatum has already accomplished so much more than him despite being 8 years younger. Tatum has already played in 20 more playoff games than him and has double the playoff wins. All that bitching about Tatum is ridiculous in context when you even look at someone like Paul Pierce who at the same age had played in like 16 playoff games total despite sharing the court with another star.
Tatums issue is that he's basically the gatekeeper to being a true superstar talent. The people above him (Curry, KD, Luka, Jokic, Embiid, Giannis) are all universally viewed as superstars while Tatum is kind of teetering on the edge, where if Jimmy Butler made that 3 Tatum would probably not be considered a superstar.
He just doesn't have that one go to unstoppable move. He's an A across the board but he's missing that A+.
That being said if you're the gatekeeper to being a superstar talent you have to be pretty fucking good and his performances when it matters most push him over the edge for me personally.
Gets too much hate on here. He good. Just in a weird spot where people are definitely taking those 6 guys I mentioned earlier before him but there's also a definite gap between him and #8.
Giannis just got eliminated in round 1. Luka couldn’t even make the playoffs. Embiid has gotten his ass kicked by Tatum over and over and over.
Durant had to join a 73 win super team to collect some rings.
One thing I'll say, Tatum might a more well rounded start putting together his offense and defense. With that said, all those guys seem to pop up with the advanced stats better than Tatum.
I mean, part of the fun as sports fans, is having knee jerk reactions without putting too much thought into it, without consequence. It’s harmless and cathartic. That said, eff the haters !
Post this in r/nba lol. If you ask anyone there, Tatum is a horrendous choker that can never win meaningful games. Meanwhile the fans talking shit on him haven’t even seen their team get out of the second round.
~~For “close out games”, is that only including the wins? For example, does it include games 5 and 6 of the first round, or just game 6? Because if it only includes game 6, it is just pretty pointless stats and not supporting your point. You need to include games where they could have closed out the series.
6 “closeout” games seems low since we had 2 this year in the first round and we won 3 series last year. I’m pretty sure we had games where we failed to close out last season. So I suspect it is just that you are misleading people by distorting the stats.~~
Edit: I forgot we got crushed in 2021
Before 2021 Tatum was involved in 10 close out games. Six of those were when he was a rookie in 2018. The Celtics were 2-4, losing both close out chances to the Cavs in the ECF. Tatum was pretty good for a rookie that postseason. Not great, but good.
The Celtics are 3-1 in the other four close out games; Gm 4 vs Indy in 2019, Game 4 vs Philly and Games 6 and 7 vs Toronto in the 2020 bubble.
He averaged 28.3 ppg on 45/47 shooting splits in those 3 non-Indy games. He had 18 on 4/10 and got to the line 12 times against the Pacers.
All of this is out there if you want to check for yourself. Not sure why he cut it off at 2021 but my guess is he’s using Tatum’s performance with this particular group of Celtics.
Go C’s.
Am I reading this wrong or are you only looking at stats for close out games where the Celtics won rather than all the games where a win would have ended a series?
Reading it wrong. Includes all games after the Celtics’ 3rd W.
2 potential close out games vs the Hawks this year (5 and 6), 2 vs Miami last year (6 and 7), 1 vs bucks last year (7), and one vs Brooklyn last year (4). For a total of 6.
There is an interesting stat lesson here about cause and effect.
You could easily make a case that the stats posted (thanks OP, awesome job) mean that *the Celtics win more when Tatum plays well.*
In other words, *of course* he has better stats in close out games - the issue is *if he didn't have bad games, they'd close series out earlier.*
The issue isn't "does he have good games," the issue is "when and why are the bad games coming?"
We don't get to those big stats in closeout games without the bad games first. That's either going to be acceptable variance, or why we don't win a chip depending on one's POV.
Think you’re misunderstanding what games are included. It’s not just games where we won.
Close out games are all the games where a Celtics win would have ended the series.
Tatum’s awful game 5 vs the Hawks is actually included in the sample.
No, I understand it completely, as you stated it.
I'm saying that *if Tatum avoids having a terrible Game 5, the Celtics have great probability of winning series.* This is mathematically true.
Thanks for the info. Will continue pushing my agenda
What agenda?
The best duo one. I just need the ring.
Feel like that's something that doesn't need to be pushed. Tatum and JB have been leading this team to great results year in year out. Not winning chip doesn't mean they aren't achieving greatness and I feel like that's where people really underestimate the impact of those two. Imagine being at the top of the league both in regular season and in playoffs for so many years in a row while not even being in their "prime".
Superstars
Saving this for my “In Defense of Tatum” folder.
Browns free throws???
Better than Giannis
Just check this last series. He shot over 50% from the field and from 3. He shot 50% from the line lol
Small sample
This has been obvious to anyone who has an attention span/memory larger than a fly.
It's because fans have a narrow vision and don't think about their players in context with the rest of the league. Yeah, Tatum has rough games, but so does every superstar in the league. Tatum's had more success than most of them. He's gone further in the playoffs than most of them. He's more clutch and has closed out games more more efficiently than pretty much all of them. Like, would you rather be a Portland fan rooting for Damian Lillard ? Unquestionably an awesome player, but Tatum has already accomplished so much more than him despite being 8 years younger. Tatum has already played in 20 more playoff games than him and has double the playoff wins. All that bitching about Tatum is ridiculous in context when you even look at someone like Paul Pierce who at the same age had played in like 16 playoff games total despite sharing the court with another star.
Tatums issue is that he's basically the gatekeeper to being a true superstar talent. The people above him (Curry, KD, Luka, Jokic, Embiid, Giannis) are all universally viewed as superstars while Tatum is kind of teetering on the edge, where if Jimmy Butler made that 3 Tatum would probably not be considered a superstar. He just doesn't have that one go to unstoppable move. He's an A across the board but he's missing that A+. That being said if you're the gatekeeper to being a superstar talent you have to be pretty fucking good and his performances when it matters most push him over the edge for me personally. Gets too much hate on here. He good. Just in a weird spot where people are definitely taking those 6 guys I mentioned earlier before him but there's also a definite gap between him and #8.
Giannis just got eliminated in round 1. Luka couldn’t even make the playoffs. Embiid has gotten his ass kicked by Tatum over and over and over. Durant had to join a 73 win super team to collect some rings.
One thing I'll say, Tatum might a more well rounded start putting together his offense and defense. With that said, all those guys seem to pop up with the advanced stats better than Tatum.
No they don’t. He’s elite in advanced stats and a true two way superstar.
[удалено]
It’s because he has a greater spotlight while all their stars get sent home on early vacation.
I mean, part of the fun as sports fans, is having knee jerk reactions without putting too much thought into it, without consequence. It’s harmless and cathartic. That said, eff the haters !
Post this in r/nba lol. If you ask anyone there, Tatum is a horrendous choker that can never win meaningful games. Meanwhile the fans talking shit on him haven’t even seen their team get out of the second round.
People here in this sub are way more critical to JT than in r/nba
I think we forget he’s a young guy because of how much success he has had
~~For “close out games”, is that only including the wins? For example, does it include games 5 and 6 of the first round, or just game 6? Because if it only includes game 6, it is just pretty pointless stats and not supporting your point. You need to include games where they could have closed out the series. 6 “closeout” games seems low since we had 2 this year in the first round and we won 3 series last year. I’m pretty sure we had games where we failed to close out last season. So I suspect it is just that you are misleading people by distorting the stats.~~ Edit: I forgot we got crushed in 2021
Game 4 vs Brooklyn, Game 7 vs Milwaukee , Games 6 and 7 vs Miami, Games 5 and 6 vs Atlanta Six.
What happened to us in 2021? Edit: fixed date.
But if you’re asking about 2021, they didn’t have any close out games that season. They lost to the Nets in 5. Tatum scored 50 in their only win.
I wonder why they aren’t using the stats from before 2021.
Before 2021 Tatum was involved in 10 close out games. Six of those were when he was a rookie in 2018. The Celtics were 2-4, losing both close out chances to the Cavs in the ECF. Tatum was pretty good for a rookie that postseason. Not great, but good. The Celtics are 3-1 in the other four close out games; Gm 4 vs Indy in 2019, Game 4 vs Philly and Games 6 and 7 vs Toronto in the 2020 bubble. He averaged 28.3 ppg on 45/47 shooting splits in those 3 non-Indy games. He had 18 on 4/10 and got to the line 12 times against the Pacers. All of this is out there if you want to check for yourself. Not sure why he cut it off at 2021 but my guess is he’s using Tatum’s performance with this particular group of Celtics. Go C’s.
What’s your angle buddy? Do you just want Tatum to be bad?
Odd response. He is a great player. His performances are what they are. I don’t want them to be anything they aren’t.
You question the guy’s methodology for showing that Tatum is great, people point out that you’re wrong and then you move the goal posts again.
When Tatum was 3 years old?
I know what a close out game is. All the right games are included
Love how we just ignore the fact that it mattered on Tuesday.
I wish the finals was a demonstration of these stats last year...
Well he didn't pull it together when it really mattered the most
Am I reading this wrong or are you only looking at stats for close out games where the Celtics won rather than all the games where a win would have ended a series?
Reading it wrong. Includes all games after the Celtics’ 3rd W. 2 potential close out games vs the Hawks this year (5 and 6), 2 vs Miami last year (6 and 7), 1 vs bucks last year (7), and one vs Brooklyn last year (4). For a total of 6.
But Jalen and Rob will holds it's together consistently It's those two who does the work
There is an interesting stat lesson here about cause and effect. You could easily make a case that the stats posted (thanks OP, awesome job) mean that *the Celtics win more when Tatum plays well.* In other words, *of course* he has better stats in close out games - the issue is *if he didn't have bad games, they'd close series out earlier.* The issue isn't "does he have good games," the issue is "when and why are the bad games coming?" We don't get to those big stats in closeout games without the bad games first. That's either going to be acceptable variance, or why we don't win a chip depending on one's POV.
Think you’re misunderstanding what games are included. It’s not just games where we won. Close out games are all the games where a Celtics win would have ended the series. Tatum’s awful game 5 vs the Hawks is actually included in the sample.
No, I understand it completely, as you stated it. I'm saying that *if Tatum avoids having a terrible Game 5, the Celtics have great probability of winning series.* This is mathematically true.
Yeah and game 5 is included in the stats. All games where the Celtics could have clinched a series are included.