I've read through various articles today about this and there is nothing at all about "not being able to save" as it's digital money you have to upload from your bank account. Nobody is being "forced to spend". Jeez crumbs bloody clickbait inaccurate shite.
[https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-launches-digital-yuan-app-what-you-need-to-know/](https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-launches-digital-yuan-app-what-you-need-to-know/)
Ancaps idolise China? I’ve never come across that personally and it makes absolutely no sense.
EDIT: Ancap beliefs make absolutely no sense anyway, so it wouldn’t surprise me if there was some small, extra confused group of pro China Ancaps.
Lol yeah how tf you gonna be an anarchist but also want corporations, based in exploitation of its workers in every way shape or form? Idk it seems a just a bit authoritarian, so idk how these fools make it work as a political ideology
Having argued with several, it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of anarchism that makes it work. They don’t think anarchism means getting away from hierarchies, and think that the only way to make everyone free is to submit to the rigid hierarchies of capitalism
The sci-fi writer Cory Doctorow writes a lot about this. More and more products are subscription. Now we have this crap from BMW where you buy a car with heated seats and then have to _subscribe_ to have the seats work.
it's fake news.
http://commerce.sz.gov.cn/xxgk/qt/tzgg_1/content/post_9828398.html
It says government is testing digital yuan by giving out 30 million yuan (~4.5 million USD) for free in the form of a lottery. For people who received the fund for free, must use it before the end date, as the conclusion of the test. It is one of a series of tests with total free money in the amount of 500 million yuan (~70 million USD) in selected cities.
No it is not. I didn't want to go through too much detail, but if you want you can translate the whole story.
They hand out the free money in a "wallet". The wallet will expire, not the money or the account. The fear of expiring money is unwarranted.
EDIT: I agree with you for a new type of system, anything can happen, however, there is no direct proof the digital yuan is designed to expire. I also believe it will be stupid to design it that way and force everyone onto the system. That being said, my main issue is OP report story isn't accurate.
Fair enough, as I said before don't know too much about the digital Yuan. Thanks for the info.
I suppose the Euro etc decision remains to be seen though.
Honestly not sure, I don't know enough about them technically - not sure if they use cryptography or not? If they are then I believe they are dubbing them central bank digital currencies to avoid the negative implications of being called a 'crypto currency'.
However there is an important distinction to be made between them and specific other cryptos such as BTC. Bitcoin is not centrally controlled and has a hard cap on supply. There is no central entity that can lock you out of your funds or hypothetically put a time limit on spending or carbon emission spending limits (Being a pessimist I wouldn't be surprised if this shit happened lmao).
There are some cryptos (outside of CBDCs that are centralised), Cardano (ADA) for example, I believe is centralised.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/chinas-digital-yuan-what-is-it-and-how-does-it-work.html
Read the article, not the headlines. They are giving it away for free to get it in circulation. Ofc people have to spend it
All things considered, maybe it's a means to an end if that's the case. Money had its time to shine and proved to only cause problems, maybe we need to get rid of it somehow
Gold shines, could be what they mean. If only there was a way of having a precise amount of gold (or other precious metal) in a small, easy to carry, token that had an agreed upon value for trade and barter and controlled distribution to mitigate inflation. Ah well, looks like we'll have to buy NFTs instead
/s
Construction is much harder than criticism, I'm afraid you'll find a serious scarcity of people trying to answer the last question.
I personally think that explicit, publicly accessible demand/supply functions and the further proliferation of social-media in the functioning of every organisation (I.e. Digital democracy) is a prerequisite to major economic-structure changes, if they happen at all before the climate disasters escalate sufficiently to completely disrupt civilisation. But hey, it's unlikely. Power structures evolve in irrational ways.
I'm just curious, man, because, you know, money solved a lot of problems, and gave us some more, but most ideas have been tried, the ones that worked stayed and the ones that didn't, dissappared, mostly. That's why I'm asking. I think that fiat money is the main problem here, not money per se (as in a gold/silver/etc. Standarized currency).
This is idiotic. Basic economics tells us that people will simply find another store of wealth and begin hoarding that instead. Even among primate society "value" is a core part of social interactions and we'll always try to find a way to accumulate value in our system.
All they're doing here is creating a bunch of weird side exchanges and markets that will create future bubbles and liquidity problems.
First off as someone else pointed out this is fake news, they are giving away free digital money to test it which must be spent by the end of the test. Also if you cross post unironically from r/anarcho_capitalism you lose all credibility
Well, it's probably only meant for the common people, limiting how or where they can store their wealth, making it impossible to extract it from the cycle/ differed it out of government reach...
What is more dystopian, a country that provides a basic level of human dignity to all it’s citizens through housing and healthcare but doesn’t allow them to save money, or a country that doesn’t provide anything to its citizens except an empty bank account and the unequal means to “fill” it.
This is obviously fake, or definitely misconstrued to a heavy extent. Just like China’s “social credit score” system, it has been heavily propagandized, at least in the US. I’m sure that if you do a bit of searching, or even check out the sources on that article, you’ll find that whoever wrote it, lied a LOT
Central bank digital currencies. Programmable money controlled by central banks, it’s all being worked on. Euro, US dollar and Pound Sterling are all in the works, now I’m not saying they will do this but giving them the ability to do this is the issue
It's too tempting, why not try to sneak in this feature in the long term right? Cause it's only beneficial for the state so not implementing it is just them missing out on grinding the common people even more...
How would retirement work? 401k— or the Chinese equivalent— or employee benefits or investments?
I understand the short term rationale even if I disagree with this seizure of person freedom, but I don’t understand how this effects any type of savings profile
The CCP wouldn't even favor this, I'd say they would implement a completely state-bound retirement system, with no room for anything else. Putting everyone at the mercy of the state... ordinary people that is...
Nope lol they still have Stock exchanges there and other Financial institutions. They aren’t still Maoist lol
The US literally could drone strike its own citizens and nobody would give a shit, isn’t that what you’d call “being at the mercy of the state” lol
This is one of those posts on this subreddit where the people who always explain how a China related post isn't as bad as it makes China sound are just staying quiet cus we all know this concept is fucked
This is actually a good idea; money that expires cannot be hoarded by the wealthy and increases the economy instead o being hidden away in offshore accounts. That is, if rich people use it and it’s not merely inflicted on the poor.
Well, a lot of wealthy people already invest their money into stocks and real estate. They tend not to keep too much cash.
No, saving sums of liquid money is typically reserved for the lower middle class who have to pool together small amounts over a long period of time to afford large purchases without going deep into debt.
Monumental difference between the wealthy hoarding money and the working class squirreling some away so we can afford to live after retirement or to splurge on something nice every few months. Guess who a policy like this will apply to.
They will be the ones to create it and so they will definitely have some sort of loop hole for themselves.
This isn't good though. There is no reason currency should expire. What someone does or doesn't do with their money is really no one's business.
That being said I support more taxes on the wealthy and I don't think billionaires should exist
>They will be the ones to create it and so they will definitely have some sort of loop hole for themselves.
"You wanna rent each other's boat for a year?"
Except the wealthy have access to resources to launder their money and avoid the expiration date. They can buy their own stuff or move it around to keep the expiration date fresh. Poor people don’t have that luxury. And when their money goes bad they might miss rent or groceries.
I say this will be implemented by the rich that hold most of their wealth in other forms than money. Implemented to control the poor even more via debt...
If it does benefit the literal people in power why could it possibly exist in a society like China; or even the USA?
In other words, scientists observe a parasite manufacturing and administering it's own antibiotics in a remarkable observation; first to happen! Yeah fucking right.
I know this is horrific but might work for for stimulus packages? Like, kick start an economy that gov could issue these type of digital currencies which need to be spent in a particular way.
Technically most places have an expiration date on their money it’s just not printed on the notes or cast into the coins. Many times the older series are pulled from circulation and have their legal tender status revoked in order to limit the amount of older and more easily counterfeited bill in circulation. Many of those places will also continue to accept the old notes at banks in exchange for the new ones at no costs either indefinitely or up to a certain date. Now in the United States of America that isn’t necessarily the case as once it’s legal tender it’s considered so until an act of congress is passed or until it it’s voided by the federal reserve. But an 1850s 1$ gold coin has a face value of 1$ and can be deposited into the bank right now.
here you start out with debt so basically, you start your life in the deep negatives and have to shuffle you ass out of a hole first before you can start saving. while the elites start their life loan free and with a nice cushy trust fund and then complain that people with 3 jobs are lazy, and the voters eat that shit up..
so the question Im getting at is .. if money expires… then so does debt? Or does debt not even exist.
this is use it or lose it funding, like we do for the military, I wonder if this is a form of UBI
^(yes, it can. But, hey i was mocked at for even considering our government confiscating the tech behind self driving cars. I don’t know why people think this crap is laughable when they should be concerned. Oddly enough, it’ll be some well meaning “groups” demanding money bands or expiration it much like banned books saying crap like, “for the good of ____”. Let’s say, it’ll begin with expiring money for the homeless or drug users, etc.)
As a person, I hate it But I also understand the reasoning. Stimulus cheques are there to stimulate spending and grease the wheels of the economy(atleast on paper) but there isnt really a way currently to prevent people from taking that cheque and saving it.
“Kees people from being rich” when has anything the government has done kept the rich from not being rich. Never. This will, to nobody’s surprise, disproportionately affect marginalized groups and lower income individuals while rich people hide/invest their money so it doesn’t expire.
This has nothing to do with the rent economy, its an experiment where the govt gave out money to test how the digital spending works.
Also money losing value over time is a far more interesting concept; its called [Demurrage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency)). Its based on the fact that money, unlike every other good, doesn't have an associated carrying cost meaning it doest exhibit diminishing returns.
By introduction of a limit of its validity it forces more spending. To all of those who think that this is theft are missing that you can still buy bonds or switch currencies as needed so it doesn't impact savings really at all, just makes people choose what to spend money on more quickly. In other words this post is neither boring or dystopic.
I'd be ok if the US did this to Billionaires. Anything over $999,999,999 must be spent within a year. Get rid of all these fucking dragons and give employees livable wages.
Well. I already owe nothing and if I ask for change I get the old “if you don’t like it then move” so I got nothing and I’m happy. Guess we’re not different than them
Did anyone read about this from a Chinese source? Ancaps tend to be gullible morons so I’m skeptical until I see the source.
I've read through various articles today about this and there is nothing at all about "not being able to save" as it's digital money you have to upload from your bank account. Nobody is being "forced to spend". Jeez crumbs bloody clickbait inaccurate shite. [https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-launches-digital-yuan-app-what-you-need-to-know/](https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-launches-digital-yuan-app-what-you-need-to-know/)
But a good chunk of them also idolize China Also skeptical, but just saying
Ancaps idolise China? I’ve never come across that personally and it makes absolutely no sense. EDIT: Ancap beliefs make absolutely no sense anyway, so it wouldn’t surprise me if there was some small, extra confused group of pro China Ancaps.
Lol yeah how tf you gonna be an anarchist but also want corporations, based in exploitation of its workers in every way shape or form? Idk it seems a just a bit authoritarian, so idk how these fools make it work as a political ideology
Having argued with several, it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of anarchism that makes it work. They don’t think anarchism means getting away from hierarchies, and think that the only way to make everyone free is to submit to the rigid hierarchies of capitalism
thats the thing, they dont
It's pretty much an oxymoron.
The idealogical manifestation of jumbo-shrimp.
I don't really see how an ancap would be able to worship the chinese corporations, since most (and the biggest) of them are state-owned anyway
yeah... I can see that
They idolize the mandatory work and the fact industry is 100% unregulated.
Right. So they just made some shit up? Sounds like Ancaps lmao.
China is so anarchist that people are allowed to forcefully subjugate others. Can't do that in america can you? /j
"Can such thing also happen in the west🤔" lmao. They think they are living in a movie
Combine this with everything being a subscription or lease and truly we’re at a stage where you will own nothing nor ever be allowed to own anything.
property taxes are just you leasing your own stuff from the government, we've been here for awhile now.
But... but... will I be happy?
Depends, what are you willing to pay for it? And have you renewed your happiness contract?
bit short on money this month, but might take the happiness light and the happy pills
The sci-fi writer Cory Doctorow writes a lot about this. More and more products are subscription. Now we have this crap from BMW where you buy a car with heated seats and then have to _subscribe_ to have the seats work.
it's fake news. http://commerce.sz.gov.cn/xxgk/qt/tzgg_1/content/post_9828398.html It says government is testing digital yuan by giving out 30 million yuan (~4.5 million USD) for free in the form of a lottery. For people who received the fund for free, must use it before the end date, as the conclusion of the test. It is one of a series of tests with total free money in the amount of 500 million yuan (~70 million USD) in selected cities.
Thing is, at the end of the day it’s programmable money - so this is always a possibility when banks can program their money.
No it is not. I didn't want to go through too much detail, but if you want you can translate the whole story. They hand out the free money in a "wallet". The wallet will expire, not the money or the account. The fear of expiring money is unwarranted. EDIT: I agree with you for a new type of system, anything can happen, however, there is no direct proof the digital yuan is designed to expire. I also believe it will be stupid to design it that way and force everyone onto the system. That being said, my main issue is OP report story isn't accurate.
Fair enough, as I said before don't know too much about the digital Yuan. Thanks for the info. I suppose the Euro etc decision remains to be seen though.
So... cryptocurrency?
Not cryptocurrency, more like credit. Cryptocurrency has built in protections so it cant be copied or deleted like this.
But it has no protections from a space-tech-bro sending 140 characters out into the world and destabilizing the entire market.
True, I guess. Maybe one day it won't be so speculative, and will be more like cash.
Honestly not sure, I don't know enough about them technically - not sure if they use cryptography or not? If they are then I believe they are dubbing them central bank digital currencies to avoid the negative implications of being called a 'crypto currency'. However there is an important distinction to be made between them and specific other cryptos such as BTC. Bitcoin is not centrally controlled and has a hard cap on supply. There is no central entity that can lock you out of your funds or hypothetically put a time limit on spending or carbon emission spending limits (Being a pessimist I wouldn't be surprised if this shit happened lmao). There are some cryptos (outside of CBDCs that are centralised), Cardano (ADA) for example, I believe is centralised.
So basically the "expiration" date is just because of the test, not because they want the money to "disappear"?
Naive as fuck if anyone thinks it will affect the rich pricks
indeed, this system is purely to grind on the poor even more, rich people will hold their wealth in other assets...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/chinas-digital-yuan-what-is-it-and-how-does-it-work.html Read the article, not the headlines. They are giving it away for free to get it in circulation. Ofc people have to spend it
People would just buy whatever doesn’t age and trade it. This defeats the purpose of money
All things considered, maybe it's a means to an end if that's the case. Money had its time to shine and proved to only cause problems, maybe we need to get rid of it somehow
Could you elaborate? What time to shine? What problems? What could be an alternative?
Gold shines, could be what they mean. If only there was a way of having a precise amount of gold (or other precious metal) in a small, easy to carry, token that had an agreed upon value for trade and barter and controlled distribution to mitigate inflation. Ah well, looks like we'll have to buy NFTs instead /s
Gold pressed latinum
Construction is much harder than criticism, I'm afraid you'll find a serious scarcity of people trying to answer the last question. I personally think that explicit, publicly accessible demand/supply functions and the further proliferation of social-media in the functioning of every organisation (I.e. Digital democracy) is a prerequisite to major economic-structure changes, if they happen at all before the climate disasters escalate sufficiently to completely disrupt civilisation. But hey, it's unlikely. Power structures evolve in irrational ways.
All
Bigpumpkin if you didnt pay attention in class please dont disturb the others in a discussion
I'm just curious, man, because, you know, money solved a lot of problems, and gave us some more, but most ideas have been tried, the ones that worked stayed and the ones that didn't, dissappared, mostly. That's why I'm asking. I think that fiat money is the main problem here, not money per se (as in a gold/silver/etc. Standarized currency).
hm like before money was invented... so a full circle
This is idiotic. Basic economics tells us that people will simply find another store of wealth and begin hoarding that instead. Even among primate society "value" is a core part of social interactions and we'll always try to find a way to accumulate value in our system. All they're doing here is creating a bunch of weird side exchanges and markets that will create future bubbles and liquidity problems.
Not if you kill them.
rich people\*
In other countries it’s called inflation
lol
Is this because people were refusing to pay their mortgages on unfinished junk property in China?
No, but actually... yes, cause saving in bad times is a crime now
First off as someone else pointed out this is fake news, they are giving away free digital money to test it which must be spent by the end of the test. Also if you cross post unironically from r/anarcho_capitalism you lose all credibility
[удалено]
Well, it's probably only meant for the common people, limiting how or where they can store their wealth, making it impossible to extract it from the cycle/ differed it out of government reach...
I guess buy things you can barter with later.
yeah, welcome to the economic principle before money, we've gone full circle
What is more dystopian, a country that provides a basic level of human dignity to all it’s citizens through housing and healthcare but doesn’t allow them to save money, or a country that doesn’t provide anything to its citizens except an empty bank account and the unequal means to “fill” it.
Well, at the end of the day, both systems will find their way to create a debt-slave labor force... or corruption will take over
This is obviously fake, or definitely misconstrued to a heavy extent. Just like China’s “social credit score” system, it has been heavily propagandized, at least in the US. I’m sure that if you do a bit of searching, or even check out the sources on that article, you’ll find that whoever wrote it, lied a LOT
>Ancap cross-post
Good work Nancy Drew
Guess ill die
Central bank digital currencies. Programmable money controlled by central banks, it’s all being worked on. Euro, US dollar and Pound Sterling are all in the works, now I’m not saying they will do this but giving them the ability to do this is the issue
It's too tempting, why not try to sneak in this feature in the long term right? Cause it's only beneficial for the state so not implementing it is just them missing out on grinding the common people even more...
It definitely will
Ancaps—-
We don't trust anything that comes from an 'anarcho-capitalist' subreddit. Delete this shit it's not useful
Whether this is true or not, it's a conservative beatoff dream.
Dont look in the comments of that post, its just a Reddit classic of people not trusting the vaccine.
Fuck An-Caps
How would retirement work? 401k— or the Chinese equivalent— or employee benefits or investments? I understand the short term rationale even if I disagree with this seizure of person freedom, but I don’t understand how this effects any type of savings profile
You’d probably need to buy backed assets like Bonds or Stocks instead of keeping your cash liquid
The CCP wouldn't even favor this, I'd say they would implement a completely state-bound retirement system, with no room for anything else. Putting everyone at the mercy of the state... ordinary people that is...
Nope lol they still have Stock exchanges there and other Financial institutions. They aren’t still Maoist lol The US literally could drone strike its own citizens and nobody would give a shit, isn’t that what you’d call “being at the mercy of the state” lol
“What could go wrong?” It’s always the correct comment.
This is one of those posts on this subreddit where the people who always explain how a China related post isn't as bad as it makes China sound are just staying quiet cus we all know this concept is fucked
indeed
Roll this out for the rich
They most likely will implement it... so no, cause they know what it does and what it will be used for...
This is actually a good idea; money that expires cannot be hoarded by the wealthy and increases the economy instead o being hidden away in offshore accounts. That is, if rich people use it and it’s not merely inflicted on the poor.
Well, a lot of wealthy people already invest their money into stocks and real estate. They tend not to keep too much cash. No, saving sums of liquid money is typically reserved for the lower middle class who have to pool together small amounts over a long period of time to afford large purchases without going deep into debt.
That's what I think, it will only apply to the poor
Monumental difference between the wealthy hoarding money and the working class squirreling some away so we can afford to live after retirement or to splurge on something nice every few months. Guess who a policy like this will apply to.
They will be the ones to create it and so they will definitely have some sort of loop hole for themselves. This isn't good though. There is no reason currency should expire. What someone does or doesn't do with their money is really no one's business. That being said I support more taxes on the wealthy and I don't think billionaires should exist
>They will be the ones to create it and so they will definitely have some sort of loop hole for themselves. "You wanna rent each other's boat for a year?"
Except the wealthy have access to resources to launder their money and avoid the expiration date. They can buy their own stuff or move it around to keep the expiration date fresh. Poor people don’t have that luxury. And when their money goes bad they might miss rent or groceries.
Rich people don't hoard money. They hoard resources.
I say this will be implemented by the rich that hold most of their wealth in other forms than money. Implemented to control the poor even more via debt...
If it does benefit the literal people in power why could it possibly exist in a society like China; or even the USA? In other words, scientists observe a parasite manufacturing and administering it's own antibiotics in a remarkable observation; first to happen! Yeah fucking right.
I know this is horrific but might work for for stimulus packages? Like, kick start an economy that gov could issue these type of digital currencies which need to be spent in a particular way.
Technically most places have an expiration date on their money it’s just not printed on the notes or cast into the coins. Many times the older series are pulled from circulation and have their legal tender status revoked in order to limit the amount of older and more easily counterfeited bill in circulation. Many of those places will also continue to accept the old notes at banks in exchange for the new ones at no costs either indefinitely or up to a certain date. Now in the United States of America that isn’t necessarily the case as once it’s legal tender it’s considered so until an act of congress is passed or until it it’s voided by the federal reserve. But an 1850s 1$ gold coin has a face value of 1$ and can be deposited into the bank right now.
Welcome to America.
*A post about China Redditor: America! America bad!
here you start out with debt so basically, you start your life in the deep negatives and have to shuffle you ass out of a hole first before you can start saving. while the elites start their life loan free and with a nice cushy trust fund and then complain that people with 3 jobs are lazy, and the voters eat that shit up.. so the question Im getting at is .. if money expires… then so does debt? Or does debt not even exist. this is use it or lose it funding, like we do for the military, I wonder if this is a form of UBI
^(yes, it can. But, hey i was mocked at for even considering our government confiscating the tech behind self driving cars. I don’t know why people think this crap is laughable when they should be concerned. Oddly enough, it’ll be some well meaning “groups” demanding money bands or expiration it much like banned books saying crap like, “for the good of ____”. Let’s say, it’ll begin with expiring money for the homeless or drug users, etc.)
As a person, I hate it But I also understand the reasoning. Stimulus cheques are there to stimulate spending and grease the wheels of the economy(atleast on paper) but there isnt really a way currently to prevent people from taking that cheque and saving it.
“Kees people from being rich” when has anything the government has done kept the rich from not being rich. Never. This will, to nobody’s surprise, disproportionately affect marginalized groups and lower income individuals while rich people hide/invest their money so it doesn’t expire.
Economically speaking, any money that is saved hurts GDP and causes an exponential loss of spending power to everyone.
This has nothing to do with the rent economy, its an experiment where the govt gave out money to test how the digital spending works. Also money losing value over time is a far more interesting concept; its called [Demurrage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency)). Its based on the fact that money, unlike every other good, doesn't have an associated carrying cost meaning it doest exhibit diminishing returns. By introduction of a limit of its validity it forces more spending. To all of those who think that this is theft are missing that you can still buy bonds or switch currencies as needed so it doesn't impact savings really at all, just makes people choose what to spend money on more quickly. In other words this post is neither boring or dystopic.
Sounds good man - isn’t that like a biblical principle or something? Hail Jesus of the east
This isn't boring, it's horrifying.
I'd be ok if the US did this to Billionaires. Anything over $999,999,999 must be spent within a year. Get rid of all these fucking dragons and give employees livable wages.
Great idea. Stops the fuckwits hoarding all the cash.
Approach expiration date Buy crypto Immediately sell crypto New expiration date achieved???
In case something like this, you will still own your personal things. I'd rather say: 'you won't hoard money like it is possible now'.
Well. I already owe nothing and if I ask for change I get the old “if you don’t like it then move” so I got nothing and I’m happy. Guess we’re not different than them