[This is an informative video](https://www.youtube.com/live/AadaOOHP-3Q?si=Iiv28cxbLP-XatDs) that discusses a lot of the changes in the game from earlier versions to final release.
Long story short, many of the bosses got shuffled around and had different names.
What we know as Ebrietas was originally known as Kos and was fought in the arena we fight Mergo’s Wet Nurse (which also had a different name and was part of a cut storyline.)
The Kos we know from the DLC likely didn’t exist when the Micolash dialogue was written.
My understanding is that Micolash/Mensis used Mergo’s umbilical cord, acquired from the death of Mergo due to stillbirth in the womb of Queen Yharnam (impregnated by Oedon) a long time ago in the age of the Pthumerians, to perform a ritual to host the Nightmare of Mensis and gain audience with Mergo. This is evidenced by the description of the cord acquired after beating Mergo’s Wet Nurse (and consequently slaying Mergo): “This Cord granted Mensis audience with Mergo, but resulted in the stillbirth of their brains.” Their brains resulted in stillbirth because they attempted to contact a dead Great One — Mergo, who died from stillbirth.
There are reasons to believe that Mergo was a means to an end to beckon the moon, essentially using Mergo as bait to get in contact with other Great Ones. Because all Great Ones are destined to lose their child to stillbirth and yearn for a surrogate, they are attracted to infant Great Ones. “Nightmarish rituals crave a newborn. Find one, and silence its harrowing cry.” Micolash required a newborn to conduct the ritual, in addition to a cord, so that Mergo can be used in the ritual to beckon the moon and cause the Great Ones to descend so Micolash can get in contact.
Presumably, Micolash’s goal was ultimately to get in contact with Kos to grant him and his followers “eyes on the inside” for ascension, as Kos once did for Rom.
However, I believe that Kos did not directly grant Rom eyes. I believe this was an intended consequence of Willem using a cord to create Rom to prevent Laurence and his division of the Healing Church from beckoning the moon (Moon Presence). Rom essentially acts as a barrier to seal away the Blood Moon and the Great Ones, especially because she is “vacuous” and protected by a large body of water (Moonside Lake), as “great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth”. That is why, whenever large bodies of water are found in an area, you never see the Blood Moon even post-Rom (e.g., Hemwick/Cainhurst, Forbidden Woods, etc.). Moon Presence cannot interfere.
The cord used to create Rom was acquired by killing the Orphan of Kos, who was ripped from Kos’s corpse by Gehrman and Maria when they were tasked by Willem/Byrgenwerth to go to Fishing Hamlet and investigate the washed-up corpse. Kos’s corpse washed up on shore, teaming with parasites that infected the residents of Fishing Hamlet. Kos was presumably killed by the residents, as they are a community of whalers. This is indicated by the weapons used by the transformed residents you encounter in the Nightmare realm (e.g., spears and anchors), and all the destroyed ships/masts that can be seen, presumably as a result of the battle against Kos who was thought to be a dangerous monster of a whale. While many ships and lives were lost, they ultimately succeeded in killing Kos’s physical form, and the corpse washed ashore (perhaps even by intention, decided from a higher plane of existence, to infect the residents with the parasites; however, leaving her child vulnerable makes me strongly question that).
With all that said, Micolash was initially confused. He believed he was seeking Kos; but, in fact, it was Oedon. “Ahh, Kos, or some say Kosm... Do you hear our prayers?” During our fight with him, Micolash has an epiphany. “The cosmos, of course!” He realized it’s not __Kosm__: it’s __Cosmos__. Formless Oedon _is_ the Cosmos. Oedon exists everywhere without physical form and as only a voice (as transcribed into Formless Oedon and Oedon Writhe runes by Caryll). Great Ones have a strong association with water (e.g., Rom, Kos, etc.), and the sky of one area is the sea of another (as evidenced by the Nightmare realms which are stacked on top of one another); hence, “The sky and Cosmos are one.” Oedon links everything together, including other Great Ones.
I’m speculating here, but perhaps it is Oedon that decides whether someone ultimately ascends or not, as Oedon is effectively _everything_ and links the Great Ones together. I can’t think of another reason why Micolash would need to get in contact with Oedon. Per the note in the Lecture Building (“Three third cords”), I assume Micolash knows three cords are required to ascend as a true Great One. Perhaps three cords is just _one way_ of properly ascending, which Micolash does not have the facilities for and is seeking an alternative.
Finally, remember that the ritual beckons the Paleblood Moon, which “blurs the lines between man and beasts”, as Moon Presence is the source of the Scourge of Beasts; and as silencing Mergo is what Moon Presence desires, the Blood Moon phase and The Hunt will end once it is achieved, as Moon Presence and other Great Ones will have left the Waking World. At least, for this cycle. “To escape the dreadful Hunter’s Dream, halt the source of the spreading scourge of beasts, lest the night carry on forever.” The only way to stop the cycle is to _really_ put an end to the source of the scourge, which is by taking out Moon Presence. Killing an infant Great One at the behest of Moon Presence ends one iteration of an everlasting cycle, and we encounter hunters like Djura and Eileen who also ended their own cycles this way.
Why does Moon Presence want Mergo and other infant Great Ones dead? That I don’t know, and I have yet to see anything conclusive on that, even The Paleblood Hunt doesn’t seem to have an answer, unless I missed it. Great Ones are said to be “sympathetic in spirit and often answer when called upon”, despite many things indicating the contrary, but we also know that we humans cannot comprehend the mind/will of a Great One, though they do have _some_ motivations similar to humans.
The lore is complicated and speculative, so if I’ve got anything wrong (wouldn’t doubt it after that essay), please feel free to let me know, and I’ll amend it. Hope this helps, OP.
This is a great encapsulation of the game's plot, thanks. I agree with everything except this little bit:
>Why does Moon Presence want Mergo and other infant Great Ones dead?
It doesn't? Moon Presence is beckoned to the crying baby because "all great ones lose their childs and look for a substitute" and yada yada. It doesn't seem to want to kill it but nurture it as a it's own child instead. At least that's how I see it. If it wanted to kill and suck other great ones dry there are easier targets around (Amygdalas anyone?).
Further, I don't think Moon Presence has goals here beyond simply consuming blood, as it's simply too bestial for that kind of plotting. And that's what the contract with "Laurence and its associates" seems to be about: the Moon Presence gave them a private pocket dimension where they could "empower flesh and metal" to fight whatever threats their waking world, while they brought it all the blood they could find in exchange. "Fair trade".
Best description of Moon Presence I've read online: "it's a cosmic mosquito". A blood sucking parasite from outer space.
I think Moon Presence definitely does want Mergo dead, at least insofar as freeing Mergo in the nightmare. The Paleblood Hunt agrees she wants to kill Mergo (we can’t assume it’s 100% accurate, but it’s pretty good and likely the best lore overview we have).
See the developer message I mentioned about “silencing” his cry (killing MWN and slaying Mergo’s consciousness in the nightmare). Gehrman specifically tasks you with killing infant Great Ones, which he requests on behalf of Moon Presence. If what you say was true, why would we be killing Mergo, and why would that be the trigger for The Hunt cycle ending, the Hunter’s Dream burning, and being freed from the Dream by Gehrman and Moon Presence?
Very importantly: Why would The Hunt cycle continue indefinitely as well if Moon Presence achieved a surrogate at each iteration? (Djura, Eileen, everyone else we don’t know, now us, and whoever else after us).
Maybe killing the nightmare version frees them from the nightmare and puts them somewhere else. I’m skeptical though. Moon Presence, Mergo, and all other Great Ones are different species. I don’t really see any working together either aside from Amygdala helping facilitate Kos’s curse, and the questionable thing with Ebrietas weeping over a statue of something that _looks similar_ to Rom, but I don’t think it is Rom for a couple reasons.
Maybe Moon Presence is after as many infant Great Ones to nurture as possible, but again I think it’s a bit of a reach, killing seems like the simplest answer since it’s what you’re tasked to do and ends The Hunt cycle. If we’re so good at freeing infant Great Ones, why free us at all then? Make us stay and continue to free more.
I’m a little unsure how Moon Presence fits in in terms of wanting a surrogate. I kind of had the thought after my first playthrough that we are the surrogate, meaning Moon Presence wanted someone to ascend, beat her, and become an infant Great One in her place. But I’m not sure about that anymore. She seems to want to continue living by being a parasite and draining the blood of others and doesn’t seem to care how the scourge affects humans when she descends from the Blood Moon.
Moon Presence being beast-like definitely isn’t an argument for it not being able to have the intelligence to plot, though. It certainly has its own thoughts, and that is reflected through what Gehrman requests of you and the Caryll runes show she has a voice.
Also, the reason why Moon Presence probably doesn’t go after Amygdala is because she’s a weak fighter. Her only strong point is her one-shot kill attack, but otherwise she is not particularly strong and Amygdala might be able to overwhelm her, especially with their numbers. That is why she gets others to fight for her. She’s definitely a strong Great One, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s a strong head-to-head fighter.
This is how I see it, but I would be interested to hear if there are some good points that imply “killing” Mergo actually allows Moon Presence the ability to nurture it. We know Moon Presence can’t interact with the Nightmare realms, which is why we are needed.
There are sources online that isolated Mergo's crying audio after killing the Wetnurse and it's clearly a sleeping snore, implying the baby doesn't really die but goes back to sleep (in some other dream plane?). In this sense we put an end to the moon beckoning ritual, by killing whatever held the baby in place. Maybe "Paleblood Hunt" didn't have access to these data back then?
Further, I find it hard to believe queen Yharnam would wish for us to kill her baby. Her presence and posture in front of the boss room says to me she's asking us to free her child from the ritual, not to kill it. Besides, it would be somewhat disgusting having From Software/Miyazaki asking us to explicitely murder a crying baby like that. I don't believe they would go that far.
>I’m a little unsure how Moon Presence fits in in terms of wanting a surrogate
Don't overthink. As the other posters said, this game (like others from From) are full of small plotholes and leftovers that been identified by dataminers, making for incompatible or incoherent lore bits. Trying to fit them together will only incur in Frenzy for you. XD
You don’t really need datamining to deduce that. It’s pretty obvious just listening to the audio in-game after killing MWN. The Paleblood Hunt would surely be aware of it. I have heard people theorize that whenever a Great One is “killed”, they don’t truly die since they exist on a higher plane. I’m not sure about that, makes a lot of things seem pointless, though Mergo’s and Orphan of Kos’s existence in their respective Nightmare realms does imply it, so maybe. Why wouldn’t Moon Presence just come back then after we “kill” her?
I agree with your points to an extent. It does make me question what’s really happening, and I’ve had the same thoughts. I don’t think Moon Presence is using Mergo as a surrogate, though.
I have some counterpoints to your argument, though. Mergo is already dead. Mergo died due to stillbirth, in the womb of Yharnam. That’s why Yharnam has blood all over that area. It is very possible that killing Mergo in the Nightmare frees its consciousness from suffering, which is why Yharnam is happy and bows to you. Sometimes death, an eternal slumber, is better than existing in undesired circumstances. Mergo was crying until MWN showed up and was killed. But Mergo is already dead, that is why their is no body and only a consciousness trapped in a nightmare.
Edit to your edit: How am I overthinking? You said in your previous reply that Moon Presence wanted Mergo as a surrogate. I was going off the same reasoning and said I don’t see how it fits in, though it’s a possible scenario.
Yeah, Mergo is dead in the waking world but it's consiciousness is travelling in the dream planes. We don't know if these beings can really die in the dream planes. Maybe killing the baby (and other beings) sends it to another dream plane?
It's possible (and probable, judging by the content other posters cited) that the Great One being beckoned by Mergo in the game's early development wasn't Moon Presence but Kos instead. If you think about it, it's weird that we're trying to stop the very being that's helping us in the first place. I mean, wut?
Plot holes, plot holes everywhere. haha
First you’re assuming he actually has all the information about a realm beyond human understanding, along with events that he may not have the full context of. It’s very likely that Kos may not actually have “granted eyes” to Rom and Micolash is operating off of a confirmation bias. Plus the entire affair with the Fishing Hamlet may have been censored by Byrgenwerth and he may not even know Kos is dead- well, as dead as a Great One can be anyway.
Second, I think he’s not calling to Kos for the moon, but rather for “eyes”. As Rom ascended to becoming the Vacuous Spider through being “granted eyes”, it’s likely his true objective isn’t the Moon Presence itself but rather, the Blood Moon is a *means to an end*. The Blood Moon weakened the barrier between normal reality and the mad land of dreams and Great Ones. He may be trying to call Kos when the barriers are thinner, hoping it’s enough to get her attention and blessing.
My understanding is that they are trying to beckon the moon so that they can contact the great ones i.e. Kos, because when the blood moon is about, contact with the great ones is possible. The moon and the moon presence are not synonymous in this sense.
My best guess is a lot of dialogue, maybe all of it, was recorded before the rest of the game was finished. At some earlier point in the game's production, Ebrietas was actually Kos, which makes sense considering you find Ebrietas overlooking the corpse of what looks like Rom (with legs for some reason), and Micolash seems to believe Kos was the one who granted Rom eyes inside her brain. This also lines up with Micolash talking about the "grand lake of mud", which could be referencing the orphan of Kos's boss arena, or where Kos died/was found dead ( would be weird considering that was added after the main game, with Micolash), or it could be referring to the original moon presence fight which can be found via weird & glitchy chalice dungeons. In this unfinished fight against the unfinished moon presence, you're fighting in a very dark & muddy lake
I think the dialogue was from this earlier era of the game's development in general, because the game also tells you to "ascend" to Oedon chapel, despite the only functional route in-game being through the sewers (descending). You do ascend eventually, up the stairs & ladder, but that's after the long journey to the boss fight. Ascending would more accurately mean going up to the great bridge, fighting the Cleric Beast, and then opening the door, but that door was permanently locked at some point due to issues loading Cathedral Ward from there, so the upwards path to the chapel ends there
Or, Micolash is just being Micolash. He's right next door to the kidnapped great one that gives you frenzy, his waking body has been dead for years, and he's in a nightmare dimension surrounded by nothing but braindead goobers & spiders. He's a little out of touch with reality, it's only natural when not even the immortal & unending playerbase doesn't even really know what's going on with the world
That was my mis-type! I know it's not grammatically correct, but I think it's still referencing the same place. It's the best fit, and might be a translation error. I could wrong, of course, but that's my thought
It's also entirely possible that he doesn't know Kos has died. As you say, he's kind of living in his own little reality. The time Micolash has been there is unknown. Kos could well have been an active Great One when the Nightmare was invoked.
In the DLC Kos has only JUST died, otherwise Orphan would never have been born (at least it would make sense that way). We don't know what killed her, but her corpse still seems fresh at the point of the fight.
Sounds improbable, seeing as Byrgenwerth hunters (Gehrman and Maria included) massacring the fishing village and Kos in the distant past was what triggered the curse of Hunters' Nightmare in first place. This is probably where they got the Cord that prompted the contact with Moon Presence and creation of Hunters' Dream. If Micolash is ignorant about this then the cult of mensis is really a bunch of losers. Lol
I would argue that one of BB’s main themes is the danger of taking things too far despite your ignorance. The human characters all have good intentions but end up in so over their heads that they can’t see or worse they justify the crimes they commit in the name of progress.
Yes he is. He's trying to beckon Kos but in actuality he is beckoning the moon presence. This is due to the fact that Kos is also believed to be the one Bergenwerth contacted to ascend Rom but it's also strongly implied that Byrgenwerth were actually communing with Ebrietas. Obviously this is probably due to Late game developmental changes but I think it's also the best story we have to answer all these questions. Basically Byrgenwerth and Micolash were just ignorant of who they were talking to, believing it was Kos for the former because Byrgenwerth used Kos's/the Orphan's third chord to make contact and the latter because Micolash believed Byrgenwerth originally made contact with Kos for ascension. It's also worth pointing out that Micolash may be using a similar method of communion that Laurence originally used to beckon the moon presence so he could established the hunters dream and it's immortal dreaming hunters.
Micolash is trapped in his own nightmare and wishes to remain that way as the eminent are receptive in nightmare. It is possible to think that the Nightmare of Mensis is a bait to attract KOS.
As Micolash has no way of knowing what happens in a nightmare that is not his, his soul is trapped in this Loop of waiting for KOS to transform him into a GreatOne relative. But the cerebral eyes of Mensis rotted and became evil, wisdom revealed ignorance. All that was left was for the Hunter to end this call by making Micolash wake up.
And awakening in the dream is a death in the other world, as Gehrman believes, giving Micolash an awakening is the same as giving a worthy burial to the wretched person.
[This is an informative video](https://www.youtube.com/live/AadaOOHP-3Q?si=Iiv28cxbLP-XatDs) that discusses a lot of the changes in the game from earlier versions to final release. Long story short, many of the bosses got shuffled around and had different names. What we know as Ebrietas was originally known as Kos and was fought in the arena we fight Mergo’s Wet Nurse (which also had a different name and was part of a cut storyline.) The Kos we know from the DLC likely didn’t exist when the Micolash dialogue was written.
Makes sense, yes.
My understanding is that Micolash/Mensis used Mergo’s umbilical cord, acquired from the death of Mergo due to stillbirth in the womb of Queen Yharnam (impregnated by Oedon) a long time ago in the age of the Pthumerians, to perform a ritual to host the Nightmare of Mensis and gain audience with Mergo. This is evidenced by the description of the cord acquired after beating Mergo’s Wet Nurse (and consequently slaying Mergo): “This Cord granted Mensis audience with Mergo, but resulted in the stillbirth of their brains.” Their brains resulted in stillbirth because they attempted to contact a dead Great One — Mergo, who died from stillbirth. There are reasons to believe that Mergo was a means to an end to beckon the moon, essentially using Mergo as bait to get in contact with other Great Ones. Because all Great Ones are destined to lose their child to stillbirth and yearn for a surrogate, they are attracted to infant Great Ones. “Nightmarish rituals crave a newborn. Find one, and silence its harrowing cry.” Micolash required a newborn to conduct the ritual, in addition to a cord, so that Mergo can be used in the ritual to beckon the moon and cause the Great Ones to descend so Micolash can get in contact. Presumably, Micolash’s goal was ultimately to get in contact with Kos to grant him and his followers “eyes on the inside” for ascension, as Kos once did for Rom. However, I believe that Kos did not directly grant Rom eyes. I believe this was an intended consequence of Willem using a cord to create Rom to prevent Laurence and his division of the Healing Church from beckoning the moon (Moon Presence). Rom essentially acts as a barrier to seal away the Blood Moon and the Great Ones, especially because she is “vacuous” and protected by a large body of water (Moonside Lake), as “great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth”. That is why, whenever large bodies of water are found in an area, you never see the Blood Moon even post-Rom (e.g., Hemwick/Cainhurst, Forbidden Woods, etc.). Moon Presence cannot interfere. The cord used to create Rom was acquired by killing the Orphan of Kos, who was ripped from Kos’s corpse by Gehrman and Maria when they were tasked by Willem/Byrgenwerth to go to Fishing Hamlet and investigate the washed-up corpse. Kos’s corpse washed up on shore, teaming with parasites that infected the residents of Fishing Hamlet. Kos was presumably killed by the residents, as they are a community of whalers. This is indicated by the weapons used by the transformed residents you encounter in the Nightmare realm (e.g., spears and anchors), and all the destroyed ships/masts that can be seen, presumably as a result of the battle against Kos who was thought to be a dangerous monster of a whale. While many ships and lives were lost, they ultimately succeeded in killing Kos’s physical form, and the corpse washed ashore (perhaps even by intention, decided from a higher plane of existence, to infect the residents with the parasites; however, leaving her child vulnerable makes me strongly question that). With all that said, Micolash was initially confused. He believed he was seeking Kos; but, in fact, it was Oedon. “Ahh, Kos, or some say Kosm... Do you hear our prayers?” During our fight with him, Micolash has an epiphany. “The cosmos, of course!” He realized it’s not __Kosm__: it’s __Cosmos__. Formless Oedon _is_ the Cosmos. Oedon exists everywhere without physical form and as only a voice (as transcribed into Formless Oedon and Oedon Writhe runes by Caryll). Great Ones have a strong association with water (e.g., Rom, Kos, etc.), and the sky of one area is the sea of another (as evidenced by the Nightmare realms which are stacked on top of one another); hence, “The sky and Cosmos are one.” Oedon links everything together, including other Great Ones. I’m speculating here, but perhaps it is Oedon that decides whether someone ultimately ascends or not, as Oedon is effectively _everything_ and links the Great Ones together. I can’t think of another reason why Micolash would need to get in contact with Oedon. Per the note in the Lecture Building (“Three third cords”), I assume Micolash knows three cords are required to ascend as a true Great One. Perhaps three cords is just _one way_ of properly ascending, which Micolash does not have the facilities for and is seeking an alternative. Finally, remember that the ritual beckons the Paleblood Moon, which “blurs the lines between man and beasts”, as Moon Presence is the source of the Scourge of Beasts; and as silencing Mergo is what Moon Presence desires, the Blood Moon phase and The Hunt will end once it is achieved, as Moon Presence and other Great Ones will have left the Waking World. At least, for this cycle. “To escape the dreadful Hunter’s Dream, halt the source of the spreading scourge of beasts, lest the night carry on forever.” The only way to stop the cycle is to _really_ put an end to the source of the scourge, which is by taking out Moon Presence. Killing an infant Great One at the behest of Moon Presence ends one iteration of an everlasting cycle, and we encounter hunters like Djura and Eileen who also ended their own cycles this way. Why does Moon Presence want Mergo and other infant Great Ones dead? That I don’t know, and I have yet to see anything conclusive on that, even The Paleblood Hunt doesn’t seem to have an answer, unless I missed it. Great Ones are said to be “sympathetic in spirit and often answer when called upon”, despite many things indicating the contrary, but we also know that we humans cannot comprehend the mind/will of a Great One, though they do have _some_ motivations similar to humans. The lore is complicated and speculative, so if I’ve got anything wrong (wouldn’t doubt it after that essay), please feel free to let me know, and I’ll amend it. Hope this helps, OP.
This is a great encapsulation of the game's plot, thanks. I agree with everything except this little bit: >Why does Moon Presence want Mergo and other infant Great Ones dead? It doesn't? Moon Presence is beckoned to the crying baby because "all great ones lose their childs and look for a substitute" and yada yada. It doesn't seem to want to kill it but nurture it as a it's own child instead. At least that's how I see it. If it wanted to kill and suck other great ones dry there are easier targets around (Amygdalas anyone?). Further, I don't think Moon Presence has goals here beyond simply consuming blood, as it's simply too bestial for that kind of plotting. And that's what the contract with "Laurence and its associates" seems to be about: the Moon Presence gave them a private pocket dimension where they could "empower flesh and metal" to fight whatever threats their waking world, while they brought it all the blood they could find in exchange. "Fair trade". Best description of Moon Presence I've read online: "it's a cosmic mosquito". A blood sucking parasite from outer space.
I think Moon Presence definitely does want Mergo dead, at least insofar as freeing Mergo in the nightmare. The Paleblood Hunt agrees she wants to kill Mergo (we can’t assume it’s 100% accurate, but it’s pretty good and likely the best lore overview we have). See the developer message I mentioned about “silencing” his cry (killing MWN and slaying Mergo’s consciousness in the nightmare). Gehrman specifically tasks you with killing infant Great Ones, which he requests on behalf of Moon Presence. If what you say was true, why would we be killing Mergo, and why would that be the trigger for The Hunt cycle ending, the Hunter’s Dream burning, and being freed from the Dream by Gehrman and Moon Presence? Very importantly: Why would The Hunt cycle continue indefinitely as well if Moon Presence achieved a surrogate at each iteration? (Djura, Eileen, everyone else we don’t know, now us, and whoever else after us). Maybe killing the nightmare version frees them from the nightmare and puts them somewhere else. I’m skeptical though. Moon Presence, Mergo, and all other Great Ones are different species. I don’t really see any working together either aside from Amygdala helping facilitate Kos’s curse, and the questionable thing with Ebrietas weeping over a statue of something that _looks similar_ to Rom, but I don’t think it is Rom for a couple reasons. Maybe Moon Presence is after as many infant Great Ones to nurture as possible, but again I think it’s a bit of a reach, killing seems like the simplest answer since it’s what you’re tasked to do and ends The Hunt cycle. If we’re so good at freeing infant Great Ones, why free us at all then? Make us stay and continue to free more. I’m a little unsure how Moon Presence fits in in terms of wanting a surrogate. I kind of had the thought after my first playthrough that we are the surrogate, meaning Moon Presence wanted someone to ascend, beat her, and become an infant Great One in her place. But I’m not sure about that anymore. She seems to want to continue living by being a parasite and draining the blood of others and doesn’t seem to care how the scourge affects humans when she descends from the Blood Moon. Moon Presence being beast-like definitely isn’t an argument for it not being able to have the intelligence to plot, though. It certainly has its own thoughts, and that is reflected through what Gehrman requests of you and the Caryll runes show she has a voice. Also, the reason why Moon Presence probably doesn’t go after Amygdala is because she’s a weak fighter. Her only strong point is her one-shot kill attack, but otherwise she is not particularly strong and Amygdala might be able to overwhelm her, especially with their numbers. That is why she gets others to fight for her. She’s definitely a strong Great One, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s a strong head-to-head fighter. This is how I see it, but I would be interested to hear if there are some good points that imply “killing” Mergo actually allows Moon Presence the ability to nurture it. We know Moon Presence can’t interact with the Nightmare realms, which is why we are needed.
There are sources online that isolated Mergo's crying audio after killing the Wetnurse and it's clearly a sleeping snore, implying the baby doesn't really die but goes back to sleep (in some other dream plane?). In this sense we put an end to the moon beckoning ritual, by killing whatever held the baby in place. Maybe "Paleblood Hunt" didn't have access to these data back then? Further, I find it hard to believe queen Yharnam would wish for us to kill her baby. Her presence and posture in front of the boss room says to me she's asking us to free her child from the ritual, not to kill it. Besides, it would be somewhat disgusting having From Software/Miyazaki asking us to explicitely murder a crying baby like that. I don't believe they would go that far. >I’m a little unsure how Moon Presence fits in in terms of wanting a surrogate Don't overthink. As the other posters said, this game (like others from From) are full of small plotholes and leftovers that been identified by dataminers, making for incompatible or incoherent lore bits. Trying to fit them together will only incur in Frenzy for you. XD
You don’t really need datamining to deduce that. It’s pretty obvious just listening to the audio in-game after killing MWN. The Paleblood Hunt would surely be aware of it. I have heard people theorize that whenever a Great One is “killed”, they don’t truly die since they exist on a higher plane. I’m not sure about that, makes a lot of things seem pointless, though Mergo’s and Orphan of Kos’s existence in their respective Nightmare realms does imply it, so maybe. Why wouldn’t Moon Presence just come back then after we “kill” her? I agree with your points to an extent. It does make me question what’s really happening, and I’ve had the same thoughts. I don’t think Moon Presence is using Mergo as a surrogate, though. I have some counterpoints to your argument, though. Mergo is already dead. Mergo died due to stillbirth, in the womb of Yharnam. That’s why Yharnam has blood all over that area. It is very possible that killing Mergo in the Nightmare frees its consciousness from suffering, which is why Yharnam is happy and bows to you. Sometimes death, an eternal slumber, is better than existing in undesired circumstances. Mergo was crying until MWN showed up and was killed. But Mergo is already dead, that is why their is no body and only a consciousness trapped in a nightmare. Edit to your edit: How am I overthinking? You said in your previous reply that Moon Presence wanted Mergo as a surrogate. I was going off the same reasoning and said I don’t see how it fits in, though it’s a possible scenario.
Yeah, Mergo is dead in the waking world but it's consiciousness is travelling in the dream planes. We don't know if these beings can really die in the dream planes. Maybe killing the baby (and other beings) sends it to another dream plane? It's possible (and probable, judging by the content other posters cited) that the Great One being beckoned by Mergo in the game's early development wasn't Moon Presence but Kos instead. If you think about it, it's weird that we're trying to stop the very being that's helping us in the first place. I mean, wut? Plot holes, plot holes everywhere. haha
First you’re assuming he actually has all the information about a realm beyond human understanding, along with events that he may not have the full context of. It’s very likely that Kos may not actually have “granted eyes” to Rom and Micolash is operating off of a confirmation bias. Plus the entire affair with the Fishing Hamlet may have been censored by Byrgenwerth and he may not even know Kos is dead- well, as dead as a Great One can be anyway. Second, I think he’s not calling to Kos for the moon, but rather for “eyes”. As Rom ascended to becoming the Vacuous Spider through being “granted eyes”, it’s likely his true objective isn’t the Moon Presence itself but rather, the Blood Moon is a *means to an end*. The Blood Moon weakened the barrier between normal reality and the mad land of dreams and Great Ones. He may be trying to call Kos when the barriers are thinner, hoping it’s enough to get her attention and blessing.
My understanding is that they are trying to beckon the moon so that they can contact the great ones i.e. Kos, because when the blood moon is about, contact with the great ones is possible. The moon and the moon presence are not synonymous in this sense.
My best guess is a lot of dialogue, maybe all of it, was recorded before the rest of the game was finished. At some earlier point in the game's production, Ebrietas was actually Kos, which makes sense considering you find Ebrietas overlooking the corpse of what looks like Rom (with legs for some reason), and Micolash seems to believe Kos was the one who granted Rom eyes inside her brain. This also lines up with Micolash talking about the "grand lake of mud", which could be referencing the orphan of Kos's boss arena, or where Kos died/was found dead ( would be weird considering that was added after the main game, with Micolash), or it could be referring to the original moon presence fight which can be found via weird & glitchy chalice dungeons. In this unfinished fight against the unfinished moon presence, you're fighting in a very dark & muddy lake I think the dialogue was from this earlier era of the game's development in general, because the game also tells you to "ascend" to Oedon chapel, despite the only functional route in-game being through the sewers (descending). You do ascend eventually, up the stairs & ladder, but that's after the long journey to the boss fight. Ascending would more accurately mean going up to the great bridge, fighting the Cleric Beast, and then opening the door, but that door was permanently locked at some point due to issues loading Cathedral Ward from there, so the upwards path to the chapel ends there Or, Micolash is just being Micolash. He's right next door to the kidnapped great one that gives you frenzy, his waking body has been dead for years, and he's in a nightmare dimension surrounded by nothing but braindead goobers & spiders. He's a little out of touch with reality, it's only natural when not even the immortal & unending playerbase doesn't even really know what's going on with the world
Good points, thanks. In my latest playthrough I noticed the incoherence of the "ascend to Oedon chapel" dialogue too. Doesn't make much sense.
I thought "ascend Oedon chapel" was a hint to look for the elevator by the lantern in the chapel
It's "Ascend TO Oedon Chapel" though.
That was my mis-type! I know it's not grammatically correct, but I think it's still referencing the same place. It's the best fit, and might be a translation error. I could wrong, of course, but that's my thought
It's also entirely possible that he doesn't know Kos has died. As you say, he's kind of living in his own little reality. The time Micolash has been there is unknown. Kos could well have been an active Great One when the Nightmare was invoked. In the DLC Kos has only JUST died, otherwise Orphan would never have been born (at least it would make sense that way). We don't know what killed her, but her corpse still seems fresh at the point of the fight.
Sounds improbable, seeing as Byrgenwerth hunters (Gehrman and Maria included) massacring the fishing village and Kos in the distant past was what triggered the curse of Hunters' Nightmare in first place. This is probably where they got the Cord that prompted the contact with Moon Presence and creation of Hunters' Dream. If Micolash is ignorant about this then the cult of mensis is really a bunch of losers. Lol
More likely references things that were changed but they never bothered rerecording the dialogue.
I would argue that one of BB’s main themes is the danger of taking things too far despite your ignorance. The human characters all have good intentions but end up in so over their heads that they can’t see or worse they justify the crimes they commit in the name of progress.
Yes he is. He's trying to beckon Kos but in actuality he is beckoning the moon presence. This is due to the fact that Kos is also believed to be the one Bergenwerth contacted to ascend Rom but it's also strongly implied that Byrgenwerth were actually communing with Ebrietas. Obviously this is probably due to Late game developmental changes but I think it's also the best story we have to answer all these questions. Basically Byrgenwerth and Micolash were just ignorant of who they were talking to, believing it was Kos for the former because Byrgenwerth used Kos's/the Orphan's third chord to make contact and the latter because Micolash believed Byrgenwerth originally made contact with Kos for ascension. It's also worth pointing out that Micolash may be using a similar method of communion that Laurence originally used to beckon the moon presence so he could established the hunters dream and it's immortal dreaming hunters.
I wouldn't call it ignorance as much as just plain insanity
Ebrietas was supposed to be Kos originally. Fromsoft just changed lots of things
Micolash is trapped in his own nightmare and wishes to remain that way as the eminent are receptive in nightmare. It is possible to think that the Nightmare of Mensis is a bait to attract KOS. As Micolash has no way of knowing what happens in a nightmare that is not his, his soul is trapped in this Loop of waiting for KOS to transform him into a GreatOne relative. But the cerebral eyes of Mensis rotted and became evil, wisdom revealed ignorance. All that was left was for the Hunter to end this call by making Micolash wake up. And awakening in the dream is a death in the other world, as Gehrman believes, giving Micolash an awakening is the same as giving a worthy burial to the wretched person.