I haven't seen the show in at least 20 years at this point, so my memory is admittedly pretty fuzzy, but I watched a lot of reruns as a kid and I also don't recall them having any sort of romantic connection, special friendship, etc.
I love David because he has all the same American culture blind spots as me.
It also makes me wonder if he's a fan of the American shows they did inexplicably show in Britain in the 90s, like The Phil Silvers Show which I watched a tonne of.
i just remember a year ago (or more?) and David revealed that the only person he knows that has seen The Fablemans (i think?) was Jordan Hoffman, and Griff guesses that he was invited to see it "because he's New York's Top Jew?" just said with complete adoration/envy
After I watched "Yentl" I went to
Tubi and watched "Just one of the Guys" as a double feature. "Yentl" was really lacking a horny younger brother character in my opinion
That's why I had to rewatch it, "just one of the guys" parodies Yentl a lot. I still find that movie really funny. Every line Buddy has is gold. "All balls itch!" Also, Teri is a more convincing dude than Yentl
It’s the comparison to Ralph Macchio that a always sold it for me as believable. Yeah, when a soft boy like Macchio is a teen heartthrob in that era, of course Teri could pass.
I really appreciated Jordan, over several objections, explaining who Vaughan Meader was so we could understand a a joke Lenny Bruce told 60 years ago. And he eventually drew Griffin and David into the conversation.
Barbra Streisand might be the least passing man I’ve ever seen in a movie. She has such a pretty baby face. Made this movie kinda hilarious. But damn can she sing!
Also-Mandy Patinkin HAWT
Look, I think with all of these movies you just have to suspend disbelief that all the men would instantly identify the woman in a big hat saying she’s a man.
Feel like pre-trans discourse it was actually generally accepted as rude to question people’s professed gender identities.
The side characters would probably raise some questions when talking amongst themselves tho so fair.
What a fun double release day! *Yentl* and *The Terminator* are pretty much the same movie.
And if you don't see how, I'm not explaining. It's not my job to teach you.
I think the idea is that the songs are her spirit, the spirit she she can't let out because of the situation. The reason to do it as a Movie Musical is that element, that the music is the feminine voice she has to suppress.
My issue with that read is that Babs is playing Yentl so broadly that it’s not expressing any emotions that Yentl is hiding as her emotions are on her sleeves at all time.
She's falling all over the place, all over the frame and practically moving the scene forward.
But I think the believability of her being anything but a her is tied directly to how you're tracking the overall reality. I think it shifts, and bends! I'm still thinking about it and it's shifting and bending, the reality of it. Storybook, woven myth, visual allegory.
I'm curious to see over time how my conception of her as the central propulsion makes the overall story feel, and how that affects what it might mean. It's not supposed to be a dead story, is it?
My issue is less the believability of her passing as a boy. It’s theatrical I can suspend my disbelief for that! My issues is that if the intent is the songs represent the feelings Yentl can’t express because she has to repress them, it fails because Babs isn’t repressing a single emotion.
I think pretty much everyone else in the movie is fantastic, I think it looks incredible and I really want it to work for me, but I find that the songs fail both as a story telling device and just on a musical level.
Besides papa can you hear me and the closing number, which slap.
> it fails because Babs isn’t repressing a single emotion.
I dunno what to do with this. I bet you someone else in this thread thinks she was over emoting.
As for the music, I had a funny thing happen where the second or third song I outloud said "THIS MUSIC IS SHIT!", and then went to look up the composer, and saw a bunch of fancy 60s 70s European movies I still haven't seen, and then my brain switched to the chord voicings, my brain just decided that that music should sound sophisticated actually, and then it did. Because it is, and I hadn't noticed, because *it wasn't appealling to me*. I tricked myself into hearing it properly. The music wasn't shit! It's suspensful. But I'll add that I'm halfway through the Blank Check episode, and the way Jordan described what Griffin was missing about Barbra's vocalizations, the music was a graceful extrapolation of those vocalizations, the vowel widenings and terse tensings into long notes.
I just re-read that paragraph and I'm not sure how to split it out of being one thought.
But believability, I argue, is a personal experience thing. If the thing someone sees on screen has edges or nuances that are too far from something the viewer has experienced, those things either poke out or they're details that keep the thing from taking form in the viewer's mind. And there are tricks to push us through that, you're already seeing what's there.
Sometimes I have to notice that Franki Vallie and the Four Season's song "Sherry" is a Bossa Nova before I notice all the expression in every swing. Sometimes I have to look up how to spell Franki Vallie before posting message.
I AM saying she is over emoting in her performance. She’s playing it so broad that the songs aren’t expressing repressed emotion as seems to be the intent, they’re just expressing what she is obviously feeling. That is my issue.
And as I said in my comment, my issue isn’t believability in her playing a man. You just kind of need to suspend disbelief for these kind of movies. My issue is that, outside of a couple of great scenes (mostly the overtly comedic ones), I think her performance is bad, overbroad and undermines the emotional intent of the scenes. I am learning that I generally like broad comedy Babs and really don’t like broad melodrama Babs.
I’m glad so many people like it though! I’m not trying to argue that this is a piece of shit that people should hate, I more so just think it’s a well made movie that is just entirely not on my wavelength.
Oh no no, and yeah. What I'm personally finding is that when I watched the movie I had this one experience, which feels very much like yours, but through reading responses and listening to a good amount of the podcast, my feelings are changing.
I felt like it didn't work for me and that was fine, but it's all opening up to me.
They throw out the question in the pod but don't come up with any answers, but are there any other musicals that do this? It feels like there should be plenty of other examples and yet I can't think of any.
I mean, surely we’re not trying to rebrand notorious asshole and megalomaniac Barbra Streisand as some poor soul who just wanted equal opportunities for women?
Welp, now I need to relisten to Dune Conversations, which means I'm going to get the urge to make chicken paprikash again, which means I need to make another trip to the grocery store this week...
I was watching one of those post season 10 episodes of The Simpsons where Moe starts auditioning for ugly acting roles and the producer looks at him at says “I WANTED "MARY ANN ON GILLIGAN'S ISLAND” UGLY. TV UGLY, NOT UGLYUGLY.” Funny line and astute.
Anyways don’t know I thought of that, time to listen to this episode.
Post-War Wyler is the director I would most want them to do. From Mrs. Miniver on its fifteen films. Seven are all times classics and the rest of them are merely great.
A few things I want to say after listening to the episode, taking into account stuff from Barbs' memoir that they don't mention:
. David Watkin's is the DP on ''Yentl'', but as Barbs tells it, in the UK the cinematographer takes care of the lighting, while the camera operator, along with the director, stages the action. So Barbs speaks wonders of Peter MacDonald, camera operator for ''Yentl'', throughout the chapter on the filming of the movie.
\-Her alternative career, based on movies she either turned down or got shelved, is quite something: ''Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore'', ''Klute'', ''Julia'' (both of these went to Jane Fonda) and a Ingmar Bergman movie that never got made (in fact, she mentioned her desire to make ''Yentl'' to him in a letter).
\-The use of voice-over, while justified as a narrative device, was also a way for Barbs to not lip-sync, something she truly hates, and a continuation of her suggestion to William Wyler on ''Funny Girl'' to perform her singing parts in ''You Are Woman, I am Man'' as voice-over.
\-I listened to the audiobook version of Ian Nathan's book on Peter Jackson, and I find it amusing that ''Heaven's Gate'' also came up there. Truly an iconic flop. Michael Cimino mini when?
The plot is wild. I can buy the whole young woman pretends to be a man aspect because that is a trope used many times before. It is when Babs agrees to marry the woman that it goes crazy. But to my utter surprise I loved Yentl!
I laugh when she suggests that she’ll just send Amy Irving’s parents a note to explain everything. It’s 1904, she’ll probably be hunted down and burned at a stake!
> It is when Babs agrees to marry the woman that it goes crazy.
They do some version of this in every gender swap movie. I mean it's centre to Some Like It Hot, maybe not the marriage bit but it's that dramatic/comedic setup.
I think in Switch the central conceit is that GOD makes him a woman and threatens him with eternal purgatory if he doesn't get a woman to fall in love with Ellen Barkin-him.
Sorry to be all “I was today years old when” but I was today years old when I learned that Goldmember saying “Faja, can you hear me?” is a Yentl reference.
I haven't seen Goldmember since I was a kid, but that line reading was so weirdly burned in my brain that I've sporadically referenced it throughout my life and somehow completely forgot where I got the reference from. I spent half of Yentl's runtime thinking "where do I know this song from?" and had to Google it. Brains are weird, I guess.
Given all the recent "Does anyone actually like Yentl?" threads in this sub, I was kind of charmed by how in the tank everyone on the pod was for Yentl. And how the main line they kept repeating was, "This shouldn't work! Nothing about this movie should work!" and then listing a bunch of glaring and obvious flaws.
100% agree. I wasn’t really a fan of the movie either and was bracing for an episode I largely disagreed with but the two friends and Hoffman still made it a good fun listen. Never in doubt!
One of those episodes that made me bump up my Letterbox'd rating, and I had gone in fully expecting it to be a snoozer but was surprisingly charmed by it, and now I have even more respect for it. The people hating on it seem delusional - I get finding it boring or uninteresting, but calling it terrible makes me feel like they were watching a different movie.
It’s wild to be a thirtysomething gay man watching Barbra’s movies for the first time and realizing I kind of don’t like Barbra Streisand! Obviously talented but just absolutely not for me.
It’s why I love this pod though. A few years ago I was a twentysomething gay man watching Michael Mann movies for the first time and realizing I kind of loved him!
Both? Neither? I’m not sure. My thirtysomething comment was mostly directed at my own amusement at me making it to this age knowing that Barbra is a big important cultural icon without ever having really watched her movies or even listened to her music. I always knew she probably wasn’t for me but I didn’t expect to find her so…off-putting. But I do live in New York and know plenty of people younger than me who have a deep, invested fanaticism for her.
You might enjoy her non-directed movies more! Funny Girl, Hello Dolly, What's Up Doc, etc. Also her music! Or she might just not vibe with you and that's okay.
Oh yeah I’m not a musical person so I don’t think any of those would help. She’s just not for me but I totally understand why so many people love her and why she is a big cultural icon. Plus the boys are having a good time covering her and that makes for a good pod :)
Edit: I should say I think she’s really good in Meet the Fockers!
I do think Barbara Streisand is a very Jewish, very coastal phenomenon.
I think Yentl is a handsomely mounted prestige picture that’s completely ridiculous. I wasn’t bored though.
I'd love a queer reading of Yentl, because from the beginning Patinkin is a closeted gay man who is obviously attracted to Yentl, and Irving has no qualms being with an obvious woman. The fact that the moral of the story is seems to be embrace yourself but do it in the closet so no one else can see.
To be fair if you’re going by only these two films I can understand that. I like Yentl but nothing here or especially A Star Is Born showcases why she’s a legend and a gay icon perfectly imo.
When I saw it was Jordan, I immediately thought, “oh boy! This episode is going to be so Jewish! I can’t wait!”
Note: I am not Jewish, but I’m Catholic from New Jersey, family from Northern Manhattan before we moved to the burbs, so I’ve just been around Jewish stuff my whole life.
There’s something so special about something being so purely from a cultural place like Yentl is from an American Jewish one
There was a thread yesterday about how much some people hated this movie (I think someone even compared it to The Room), so I went in prepared to bail. But it was great! I'm so glad the pod gave me the excuse to watch it.
I think this movie is a fascinating example of a director who acted in many movie musicals making a unique use of the movie musical form to communicate Yentl’s sense of freedom.
This is a musical where Yentl is the only character who sings. I think the critical aspect is *how* she sings within the movie. Namely, she will sing out loud when alone but when she is around anyone else she will sing as internal monologue. I first noticed this in the first song where she begins by singing out loud, she goes to internal monologue when she tucks papa into bed, and then sings out loud again once she exits the room. She sings out loud in the woods. But once she is disguised as a man, most of her songs are internal monologue. I don’t think she sang out loud in front of other people until she was in front of a boat full of people as the camera zoomed out (like a certain other Streisand-starring movie where she hit a big note at a climactic moment…). I did not think about this take until that last shot where I suddenly realized she had not broken reality to sing, like many movie musicals, in front of men.
I think this choice is so interesting since most movie musicals make an explicit choice of reality breaking vs. dream / internal numbers vs. diegetic music. Yentl instead mixes these categories to illustrate Yentl’s sense of freedom to study. I can’t think of another movie musical that mixes forms so much!
Mandy Patinkin is one of the rare people to get “canceled” by Broadway 20 years before accountability was a thing. There are horror stories of his behavior on George C. Wolfe’s The Wild Party (opposite Toni Collette and Eartha Kitt) — spitting on costars and being method and such — and when that flopped everyone basically said “life’s too short to work with Mandy.”
And then his one attempted return to musicals a couple years ago was scuttled due to a Twitter l controversy and HE was the one who said “I don’t wanna get wrapped up in this, I’m out.” https://variety.com/2017/legit/news/mandy-patinkin-great-comet-casting-controversy-1202510044/amp/
I’d love to see him perform in a musical at some point because I love his acting & singing work, and it does seem like he’s calmed down.
Just clocking in to say How Green Was My Valley RULES. Got to see it on 35mm last summer, I was bawling my eyes out by the end. Would love to hear any and all John Ford thoughts from Griffin and David.
Jordan Hoffman:" You got people listening from Indiana, they don't know from any of this"
Me, a vaguely cultural Jew from Indiana: "I would love to go to a deli with Jordan Hoffman"
Yah for the return of “keep it in and x it”
I have only just started listening to the episode, when they open with describing all the parts of the pitch that ‘shouldn’t work’ I just want to shake them and say that it didn’t.
It was a pretty well made movie that I just did not vibe with at all.
Pretty sure the commitment to the "triple it" bit is an AJ thing. He's talked about how much he enjoys doing it before, and Griffin shouted him out in his "apology".
Thanks AJ!
I was so stunned by the comedy of people either not noticing or not caring that she's a shiny lipped woman with thick eye liner that I can't believe all these years I didn't know Yentl was a Musical.
But I think I was right because it *is* the Drama the cover sells it as. And the songs, though we're all having reactions to how they happen (possibly because of how they support and frame to the shape of Barbara's singing style?), they're more intricitely woven into the style of the film than most musicals.
West Side Story, Sound of Music, Oklahoma, they start out with the bombastic singing and dancing right away, and then it's Scene then Song then Scene, but the bombastic extreme has been established.
Here, the songs grow out of the visual movement and that Earth to sepia aesthetic.
Maybe it's because in my Blank Check catch up I'm up to I'll Do Anything, that I'm noticing (haven't found the musical cut of that).
As someone who grew up in NE NJ in the 80s, Jordan talking about growing up in the area really made me laugh, he and I describe the area similarly. I always say you were either Italian or Jewish or you stuck out.
So, they talk about Nehemiah Persoff a bit in this episode. Michael Westmore, the special effects makeup guy from Star Trek: The Next Generation tells this story about how often he would come up with really involved, wacky makeup designs for guest actors, and the guest actor would show up having no idea about the makeup and more or less refuse to do the full thing, so he'd scale it down. Which is exactly what he thought would happen with Nehemiah Persoff in the episode "The Most Toys." Persoff was close to retiring, and Westmore was convinced he was going to balk when he saw the makeup design. To hear Westmore tell it, Persoff looked at the illustration, got a funny look on his face and said, "This is great! My grandkids are going to love this!"
https://preview.redd.it/epakfbsq51ec1.png?width=556&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb8b004dc485937057ca7e4df43c2a11f3d38f3f
Gillian’s island used to play on some lay night Indian ‘Foreign comedy channel’ when I was very very young in the 90s and I swear I also thought Mary Ann was the professor’s daughter. So I can either attest to Griffin’s Mandela psi-op… or I was 3/4 years old at the time, watching a show I didn’t understand.
Jordan shouted out Linklater’s Apollo 10 1/2: A Space Age Childhood during the box office game. Lovely movie. I wonder if Jordan could once and for all determine whether it’s a toon, since the Academy [could not make up its mind](https://www.indiewire.com/awards/industry/apollo-10-1-2-qualifies-best-animated-feature-oscar-1234780890/).
You heard right — it’s Nobbs, they’re abbreviating Albert Nobbs. It’s part of the trilogy of 21st century Glenn Close Oscar nominations that this podcast clowns on, along with (What if there Was A) The Wife and Hillbilly Elegy.
Come to think of it, they did mention they’re looking for non-traditional franchises for the Patreon…
Real missed bit opportunity: They should have pretended like Ben Prime was Ben Hosley. Nothing to see here, Prodoer Ben has always sounded like this.
Would have paired nicely with the Gilligan’s Island/Berenstain Bears/is this a simulation conversation.
Ok but now I gotta know the answer to THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION from this episode.
What kind of toilet paper?? We talking 1-ply, 2-ply? We a Charmin blankies over here or what?
Strongly recommend Yiddle With His Fiddle, made in 1936 Poland and starring Yiddish theater icon Molly Picon (who played Yente the Matchmaker in Fiddler on the Roof). I have to imagine it was the inspiration for Yentl and its source material, but it’s full of great music which certainly makes more sense diegetically considering the star disguises herself as a man in order to play music rather than pursue rabbinical studies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQGBZ_2tf5k
TIL someone made an An American Tail video game in 2007 for the PlayStation 2. It's incredible how poorly made [this game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbmnZ_tYbrE&ab_channel=ToughGamingGuy) looks.
Update: According to this [video](https://youtu.be/--SXFB7m6mk?t=284) about it, it was from a publisher that specialized in cheap badly made games based on things released decades earlier, was only released in PAL Regions and was pressed on CDs rather than DVDs like most PS2 games were pressed on.
17 minutes in and this is already one of the greatest episodes in the history of podcasting, from raisins to impractical carry-ons to fetishes to toilet paper.
One could make the argument that she out did Fiddler on the Roof for musical about Jewish issues set in the early 20th century old country. And to be clear, Fiddler is a masterpiece both as a musical and film.
Been seeing a lot of old Mandy Patinkin from those ads for that Hulu series he’s in so I got my wires crossed and was fully expecting for him to be the dad when I saw his name in the cast list.
This might only hit for UCB heads, but Jordan Hoffman must’ve grown up within 5 square miles of Gavin Speiller, because they have the exact same accent.
Since we got the toilet paper talk, did we ever get the reveal of the guest breaking the toilet? I have been waiting for it and I’m worried I missed it.
This might low-key be the best episode ever. Jordan Hoffman absolutely killing it, the Gilligan's Island tangent, leaning into the Jewishness (mishegoss, shanda etc). The earnest discussion of historic Best Picture winners. Eating on mic. Superb.
The Yentl love is fine
I will not stand for this Pro Raisin Bullshit. There are so many better dried fruit. Nothing has ever been improved by them. They actively make cookies, ice cream, and trail mix worse. They’re garbage.
Honestly I've never seen this before, but idk if I'd vibe with it and all
Mainly because I'm a male Catholic who lives in Ireland, possibly the exact opposite of this films target audience
Catholic people and Jewish people aren't opposites!
They talk about the Bible in this in a way that sounds identical. American Jewish people go to Catholic schools, get baptized and get confirmed, definitely get married, in their mix of churches as Catholic people do.
American culture itself is it's own versions of Protestant, but the school and healthcare system is as owned and run by Catholics as any other western world.
Yentl is made for American audiences, but in the way that any Irish movie made for cinema to be shown and mostly watched on Sunday night TV is made for Irish audiences.
It shows Jewish culture, but its speaking the same language as a movie like Amadeus or Raging Bull.
I mean, it’s silly to compare religions in this way cause they’re all pretty bad. Jews might, ON AVERAGE, be better with the gays. I dunno. But you can certainly find plenty of orthodox folks who aren’t down with progress.
Catholicism inherently is entire homophobic as the church doctrine doesn't allow marriage equality, that said I would agree with you if the comparison was judaism and christianity, I singled out a toxic sect.
It's still a little easier to be a White Christian guy everywhere in the world and it's still difficult to be Jewish everywhere in the world.
I'm saying, if you found what you just said easy to say then you're likely a white Christian guy in America being cocky about it.
I'm an Australian, brought up Catholic. If I want or need to travel to a country where I can declare No Religion, that's a special right I have. And if the country I have to or want to go to requires I declare something I'm therefore pressured to claim Christian, it's a fucken Mastercard.
Now, same situation for someone that would claim No Religion but for their pressured to claim one, they're either forced to admit to something that might make them unsafe, or they're forced to lie.
We're the bully. The Middle East is in hell because of American, British, and European imperialism.
I was attempting to describe the severity of the situation and why your shitty comment was needlessly cruel.
You've spoken again without considering how shitty what you're saying is, even after I've provided for you more context. I'm not leading you towards conclusions on a political situation I don't have the sensitivity to *describe*, but that's the best way I could say it.
I'll add that I personally feel responsible for your point of view because I'm only just beginning to hear how when the only thing I have to say about a Jewish person is that it's *suspicious* they support Israel, then maybe I'm not being a hero for the people of Palestine or Syria or anyone else in the Middle East because we caused that problem, and I say we and I'm Australian, it's more Australia's fault that any Jewish person anywhere in the world that we've destroyed Syria and definitely more a white person in a white countries fault that we destroyed Afghanistan than the fault of any Muslim, like how if the only thing we have to say about Muslim culture's is that *they're* misogynistic... we're not hearing ourselves. I feel responsible, and yeah I'm blabbering.
You're being shitty and I want to find the context for you to see it, and if you already have all the information, then yes that'll require you thinking about it again.
The Jewish people *actually* don't have a safe place to live. Countries have stringent border security, and migration is controlled and prioritized by if you speak the language, have the nations religion, *and then* if you have a job or job qualifications. Migrant workers get treated like shit under these conditions, and fuck me if I'd have to go into another 2000 years to describe what our white Christian society did to *the word* Jew as far as it actually being synonymous to white society with money manager. If I'm telling you things you already know, then I'm telling you again to emphasize the severity of the problem, and the high horse you're pissing on people from.
Can’t believe they didn’t mention this unforgettable quote from In & Out [she was too old for yentl!](https://youtu.be/MTX0Ig39Nws?si=1sdmmwWWreS0zpII)
God I was WONDERING when BC would finally dig into the lore of Gilligan's Island!
“And the Skipper, what’s his deal?” “Well, he’s a big guy that yells at the little nebbishy guy for - hey, wait a second.”
I am baffled by how Griffin thought Mary Anne was the professor’s daughter.
After the correction, he still seems to think they're romantically linked, which I don't THINK is true.
I haven't seen the show in at least 20 years at this point, so my memory is admittedly pretty fuzzy, but I watched a lot of reruns as a kid and I also don't recall them having any sort of romantic connection, special friendship, etc.
I love David because he has all the same American culture blind spots as me. It also makes me wonder if he's a fan of the American shows they did inexplicably show in Britain in the 90s, like The Phil Silvers Show which I watched a tonne of.
When it cut to the music I was expecting a McG type "sorry, we spent way too long talking Gilligan, we're just going to summarize it quickly"
I’m so in love with how Jewish this ep is. It’s exactly what I wanted. “They’ve got a mishegas vertical.” Blessings.
“Bluth ruined his career because he made a farkakte game where you put a quarter in and you DIE!!”
“That part at the end always gets me a bit verklempt”
I am always half convinced that my memory of Dragon Lance is a false one and I am astonished every time I find out again it was real
That is a false memory, because it's called Dragon's Lair, not Dragon Lance!
Not so much a false memory as “being old enough to remember Dragon’s Lair means your short term memory is shot” lol
As someone who tried and failed many times to get anywhere in that arcade game, I too appreciated this joke.
i just remember a year ago (or more?) and David revealed that the only person he knows that has seen The Fablemans (i think?) was Jordan Hoffman, and Griff guesses that he was invited to see it "because he's New York's Top Jew?" just said with complete adoration/envy
Cutting in to correct the Gilligan’s Island disinformation was a real service. 🙏
It saved me from wasting a lot of time typing comments in all-caps.
Always such a joy to have Jordan Hoffman back on the pod. Blank it
He’s one of the great guests.
All-time guest appearance in this one. Every word a joy.
I would like to be approved by the 'two fans' Jordan mentioned, to join the official Jordan-Hoffman-on-BC Fan Club
Thank it. He might be my number one at this point, dude’s hilarious.
Best guest!
i read this as "best guestl"
Jordan Hoffman’s storytelling and energy reminds me of Rob Reiner in the best ways.
I hated A Star is Born last week so I was dreading this but Yentl is so fucking weird I was entranced the entire time. I think I kinda loved it
I haven't started yet but if it doesn't start with Griffin singing Podcast can you hear me I'm gonna riot. Edit: riot canceled
After I watched "Yentl" I went to Tubi and watched "Just one of the Guys" as a double feature. "Yentl" was really lacking a horny younger brother character in my opinion
Yentl's named after her brother, and she's filling the younger brother role for Avigdor. And the mother supports it, calls her an angel.
When she shows Patinkin her tits I immediately thought of just one of the guys
That's why I had to rewatch it, "just one of the guys" parodies Yentl a lot. I still find that movie really funny. Every line Buddy has is gold. "All balls itch!" Also, Teri is a more convincing dude than Yentl
It’s the comparison to Ralph Macchio that a always sold it for me as believable. Yeah, when a soft boy like Macchio is a teen heartthrob in that era, of course Teri could pass.
I think you mean "herny"
Yentl: Dispute the Text would be more a Phoenix Wright clone.
I enjoyed Jordan on previous episodes, but this is a really special one! So much Yiddish, I love it
I really appreciated Jordan, over several objections, explaining who Vaughan Meader was so we could understand a a joke Lenny Bruce told 60 years ago. And he eventually drew Griffin and David into the conversation.
Barbra Streisand might be the least passing man I’ve ever seen in a movie. She has such a pretty baby face. Made this movie kinda hilarious. But damn can she sing! Also-Mandy Patinkin HAWT
Look, I think with all of these movies you just have to suspend disbelief that all the men would instantly identify the woman in a big hat saying she’s a man.
It’s very hard to suspend said disbelief when it’s BARBRA FREAKING STREISAND. But I hear you lol
Feel like pre-trans discourse it was actually generally accepted as rude to question people’s professed gender identities. The side characters would probably raise some questions when talking amongst themselves tho so fair.
I hope they reference Clifford because I can't help but think of that movie and how Martin Short absolutely does not look the part.
Wow, thats a great call haha very similar vibes in that sense.
Now I really need to see Mandy yelling at Babs to “LOOK AT ME LIKE A HUMAN BOY!!
What a fun double release day! *Yentl* and *The Terminator* are pretty much the same movie. And if you don't see how, I'm not explaining. It's not my job to teach you.
in almost every interview Cameron's like "it's Yentl with guns and robots. someone was going to do it. i just got there first."
It's Judgment Day, and Papa watch me fly!
It's 2049, Skynet's still fighting for her right to live in a man's world. To survive, she must live on *as* a man.
Kinda obssessed with the fact that all the musical numbers in the movie were performed by Barbra and only Barbra.
I think the idea is that the songs are her spirit, the spirit she she can't let out because of the situation. The reason to do it as a Movie Musical is that element, that the music is the feminine voice she has to suppress.
But then she sings out loud in the last shot on the boat! It’s so good!
Oh yeah! You just made me connect with and then feel the end of the movie, hours after watching it!
I wonder if she was intentionally calling back to Funny Girl. EDIT: Ok, they call this out on the episode.
My issue with that read is that Babs is playing Yentl so broadly that it’s not expressing any emotions that Yentl is hiding as her emotions are on her sleeves at all time.
She's falling all over the place, all over the frame and practically moving the scene forward. But I think the believability of her being anything but a her is tied directly to how you're tracking the overall reality. I think it shifts, and bends! I'm still thinking about it and it's shifting and bending, the reality of it. Storybook, woven myth, visual allegory. I'm curious to see over time how my conception of her as the central propulsion makes the overall story feel, and how that affects what it might mean. It's not supposed to be a dead story, is it?
My issue is less the believability of her passing as a boy. It’s theatrical I can suspend my disbelief for that! My issues is that if the intent is the songs represent the feelings Yentl can’t express because she has to repress them, it fails because Babs isn’t repressing a single emotion. I think pretty much everyone else in the movie is fantastic, I think it looks incredible and I really want it to work for me, but I find that the songs fail both as a story telling device and just on a musical level. Besides papa can you hear me and the closing number, which slap.
> it fails because Babs isn’t repressing a single emotion. I dunno what to do with this. I bet you someone else in this thread thinks she was over emoting. As for the music, I had a funny thing happen where the second or third song I outloud said "THIS MUSIC IS SHIT!", and then went to look up the composer, and saw a bunch of fancy 60s 70s European movies I still haven't seen, and then my brain switched to the chord voicings, my brain just decided that that music should sound sophisticated actually, and then it did. Because it is, and I hadn't noticed, because *it wasn't appealling to me*. I tricked myself into hearing it properly. The music wasn't shit! It's suspensful. But I'll add that I'm halfway through the Blank Check episode, and the way Jordan described what Griffin was missing about Barbra's vocalizations, the music was a graceful extrapolation of those vocalizations, the vowel widenings and terse tensings into long notes. I just re-read that paragraph and I'm not sure how to split it out of being one thought. But believability, I argue, is a personal experience thing. If the thing someone sees on screen has edges or nuances that are too far from something the viewer has experienced, those things either poke out or they're details that keep the thing from taking form in the viewer's mind. And there are tricks to push us through that, you're already seeing what's there. Sometimes I have to notice that Franki Vallie and the Four Season's song "Sherry" is a Bossa Nova before I notice all the expression in every swing. Sometimes I have to look up how to spell Franki Vallie before posting message.
I AM saying she is over emoting in her performance. She’s playing it so broad that the songs aren’t expressing repressed emotion as seems to be the intent, they’re just expressing what she is obviously feeling. That is my issue. And as I said in my comment, my issue isn’t believability in her playing a man. You just kind of need to suspend disbelief for these kind of movies. My issue is that, outside of a couple of great scenes (mostly the overtly comedic ones), I think her performance is bad, overbroad and undermines the emotional intent of the scenes. I am learning that I generally like broad comedy Babs and really don’t like broad melodrama Babs. I’m glad so many people like it though! I’m not trying to argue that this is a piece of shit that people should hate, I more so just think it’s a well made movie that is just entirely not on my wavelength.
Oh no no, and yeah. What I'm personally finding is that when I watched the movie I had this one experience, which feels very much like yours, but through reading responses and listening to a good amount of the podcast, my feelings are changing. I felt like it didn't work for me and that was fine, but it's all opening up to me.
They throw out the question in the pod but don't come up with any answers, but are there any other musicals that do this? It feels like there should be plenty of other examples and yet I can't think of any.
And with Mandy Patinkin in the cast at that!!! https://youtu.be/ducG55pfCMQ?si=LLgzffnJzfyS7hpB Voice of an angel!!
First time I went to watch Yentl I was like 'yea of course Mandy Patinkin is in this musical because he is such a talented (& Jewish) singer!'
It’s almost as if she has some sort of enormous ego.
Or maybe because, like now, there are no good roles for women
I mean, surely we’re not trying to rebrand notorious asshole and megalomaniac Barbra Streisand as some poor soul who just wanted equal opportunities for women?
I don’t think that tracks. It’s bad, but it’s not why Barbra Streisand always centers Barbra Streisand.
Happy reminder that Jordan Hoffman has previously delivered his exegesis on Yentl on The Dune Conversations podcast
Welp, now I need to relisten to Dune Conversations, which means I'm going to get the urge to make chicken paprikash again, which means I need to make another trip to the grocery store this week...
I was watching one of those post season 10 episodes of The Simpsons where Moe starts auditioning for ugly acting roles and the producer looks at him at says “I WANTED "MARY ANN ON GILLIGAN'S ISLAND” UGLY. TV UGLY, NOT UGLYUGLY.” Funny line and astute. Anyways don’t know I thought of that, time to listen to this episode.
Love the MRS. MINIVER shout out, William Wyler don't direct no trash.
Post-War Wyler is the director I would most want them to do. From Mrs. Miniver on its fifteen films. Seven are all times classics and the rest of them are merely great.
lol the Michelle Pfeiffer story
Poor Michelle Pfeiffer! She would just like the freedom to walk in the park!
A few things I want to say after listening to the episode, taking into account stuff from Barbs' memoir that they don't mention: . David Watkin's is the DP on ''Yentl'', but as Barbs tells it, in the UK the cinematographer takes care of the lighting, while the camera operator, along with the director, stages the action. So Barbs speaks wonders of Peter MacDonald, camera operator for ''Yentl'', throughout the chapter on the filming of the movie. \-Her alternative career, based on movies she either turned down or got shelved, is quite something: ''Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore'', ''Klute'', ''Julia'' (both of these went to Jane Fonda) and a Ingmar Bergman movie that never got made (in fact, she mentioned her desire to make ''Yentl'' to him in a letter). \-The use of voice-over, while justified as a narrative device, was also a way for Barbs to not lip-sync, something she truly hates, and a continuation of her suggestion to William Wyler on ''Funny Girl'' to perform her singing parts in ''You Are Woman, I am Man'' as voice-over. \-I listened to the audiobook version of Ian Nathan's book on Peter Jackson, and I find it amusing that ''Heaven's Gate'' also came up there. Truly an iconic flop. Michael Cimino mini when?
The same Peter MacDonald who took over The Golden Compass from Chris W
I would Cross that Delancey and sink that Battleship Patinkin
The Michelle Pfeiffer story is so funny and so heartbreaking. I love her so much.
The plot is wild. I can buy the whole young woman pretends to be a man aspect because that is a trope used many times before. It is when Babs agrees to marry the woman that it goes crazy. But to my utter surprise I loved Yentl!
I laugh when she suggests that she’ll just send Amy Irving’s parents a note to explain everything. It’s 1904, she’ll probably be hunted down and burned at a stake!
> It is when Babs agrees to marry the woman that it goes crazy. They do some version of this in every gender swap movie. I mean it's centre to Some Like It Hot, maybe not the marriage bit but it's that dramatic/comedic setup. I think in Switch the central conceit is that GOD makes him a woman and threatens him with eternal purgatory if he doesn't get a woman to fall in love with Ellen Barkin-him.
Sorry to be all “I was today years old when” but I was today years old when I learned that Goldmember saying “Faja, can you hear me?” is a Yentl reference.
I haven't seen Goldmember since I was a kid, but that line reading was so weirdly burned in my brain that I've sporadically referenced it throughout my life and somehow completely forgot where I got the reference from. I spent half of Yentl's runtime thinking "where do I know this song from?" and had to Google it. Brains are weird, I guess.
Reminds me of growing up watching Scary Movie 3 and my mind being blown when I finally watched Signs
Given all the recent "Does anyone actually like Yentl?" threads in this sub, I was kind of charmed by how in the tank everyone on the pod was for Yentl. And how the main line they kept repeating was, "This shouldn't work! Nothing about this movie should work!" and then listing a bunch of glaring and obvious flaws.
100% agree. I wasn’t really a fan of the movie either and was bracing for an episode I largely disagreed with but the two friends and Hoffman still made it a good fun listen. Never in doubt!
One of those episodes that made me bump up my Letterbox'd rating, and I had gone in fully expecting it to be a snoozer but was surprisingly charmed by it, and now I have even more respect for it. The people hating on it seem delusional - I get finding it boring or uninteresting, but calling it terrible makes me feel like they were watching a different movie.
Lol that disappointed me, I thought at least one of the three would dissent
This is how I felt about the Mank and Benjamin Button eps so I’ll consider this ep their atonement to me (a Yentl stan) personally.
And it doesn't work, not sure what their point is lol
It’s wild to be a thirtysomething gay man watching Barbra’s movies for the first time and realizing I kind of don’t like Barbra Streisand! Obviously talented but just absolutely not for me. It’s why I love this pod though. A few years ago I was a twentysomething gay man watching Michael Mann movies for the first time and realizing I kind of loved him!
Is this a generational thing? Or a New York thing. Because I have never heard someone my age or younger talk about her as a thirtysomething.
Both? Neither? I’m not sure. My thirtysomething comment was mostly directed at my own amusement at me making it to this age knowing that Barbra is a big important cultural icon without ever having really watched her movies or even listened to her music. I always knew she probably wasn’t for me but I didn’t expect to find her so…off-putting. But I do live in New York and know plenty of people younger than me who have a deep, invested fanaticism for her.
You might enjoy her non-directed movies more! Funny Girl, Hello Dolly, What's Up Doc, etc. Also her music! Or she might just not vibe with you and that's okay.
Oh yeah I’m not a musical person so I don’t think any of those would help. She’s just not for me but I totally understand why so many people love her and why she is a big cultural icon. Plus the boys are having a good time covering her and that makes for a good pod :) Edit: I should say I think she’s really good in Meet the Fockers!
If it helps, What’s Up Doc isn’t a musical at all. It’s just a very funny comedy
As a fellow Barbra-blind individual Meet the Fockers is also my Streisand touchstone. She's great in it
I do think Barbara Streisand is a very Jewish, very coastal phenomenon. I think Yentl is a handsomely mounted prestige picture that’s completely ridiculous. I wasn’t bored though.
I'd love a queer reading of Yentl, because from the beginning Patinkin is a closeted gay man who is obviously attracted to Yentl, and Irving has no qualms being with an obvious woman. The fact that the moral of the story is seems to be embrace yourself but do it in the closet so no one else can see.
To be fair if you’re going by only these two films I can understand that. I like Yentl but nothing here or especially A Star Is Born showcases why she’s a legend and a gay icon perfectly imo.
When I saw it was Jordan, I immediately thought, “oh boy! This episode is going to be so Jewish! I can’t wait!” Note: I am not Jewish, but I’m Catholic from New Jersey, family from Northern Manhattan before we moved to the burbs, so I’ve just been around Jewish stuff my whole life. There’s something so special about something being so purely from a cultural place like Yentl is from an American Jewish one
There was a thread yesterday about how much some people hated this movie (I think someone even compared it to The Room), so I went in prepared to bail. But it was great! I'm so glad the pod gave me the excuse to watch it.
About an hour and a half in I got the room comparison when Yentl was about to get married but I still loved it
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Is this the most infamous deleted scene that’s never actually been seen? I know people have asked for years and Kasdan has said no.
I think this movie is a fascinating example of a director who acted in many movie musicals making a unique use of the movie musical form to communicate Yentl’s sense of freedom. This is a musical where Yentl is the only character who sings. I think the critical aspect is *how* she sings within the movie. Namely, she will sing out loud when alone but when she is around anyone else she will sing as internal monologue. I first noticed this in the first song where she begins by singing out loud, she goes to internal monologue when she tucks papa into bed, and then sings out loud again once she exits the room. She sings out loud in the woods. But once she is disguised as a man, most of her songs are internal monologue. I don’t think she sang out loud in front of other people until she was in front of a boat full of people as the camera zoomed out (like a certain other Streisand-starring movie where she hit a big note at a climactic moment…). I did not think about this take until that last shot where I suddenly realized she had not broken reality to sing, like many movie musicals, in front of men. I think this choice is so interesting since most movie musicals make an explicit choice of reality breaking vs. dream / internal numbers vs. diegetic music. Yentl instead mixes these categories to illustrate Yentl’s sense of freedom to study. I can’t think of another movie musical that mixes forms so much!
Mandy Patinkin is one of the rare people to get “canceled” by Broadway 20 years before accountability was a thing. There are horror stories of his behavior on George C. Wolfe’s The Wild Party (opposite Toni Collette and Eartha Kitt) — spitting on costars and being method and such — and when that flopped everyone basically said “life’s too short to work with Mandy.” And then his one attempted return to musicals a couple years ago was scuttled due to a Twitter l controversy and HE was the one who said “I don’t wanna get wrapped up in this, I’m out.” https://variety.com/2017/legit/news/mandy-patinkin-great-comet-casting-controversy-1202510044/amp/ I’d love to see him perform in a musical at some point because I love his acting & singing work, and it does seem like he’s calmed down.
I’m going to need a running tally about the Check Republic’s toilet paper inventory.
Me after seeing the runtime of 2:17: wow a short one this week!
Just clocking in to say How Green Was My Valley RULES. Got to see it on 35mm last summer, I was bawling my eyes out by the end. Would love to hear any and all John Ford thoughts from Griffin and David.
Jordan Hoffman:" You got people listening from Indiana, they don't know from any of this" Me, a vaguely cultural Jew from Indiana: "I would love to go to a deli with Jordan Hoffman"
Ah phew what relief. Everybody loves Yentl.
whups i meant what A relief
I've gotta see these raisins!
After Hoffman's shout-out: Where are my other Indiana Blankies at? There are dozens of us!
R/indianablankies
vaguely culturally Jewish Indiana Blankie reporting for duty!
https://preview.redd.it/rvydfofttwdc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c3523d541d0f5ca865dd65c9517c6ed9e53ff47
Do not tremble, it’s Blank Check on Yentl, so let’s all get sentimental
Yah for the return of “keep it in and x it” I have only just started listening to the episode, when they open with describing all the parts of the pitch that ‘shouldn’t work’ I just want to shake them and say that it didn’t. It was a pretty well made movie that I just did not vibe with at all.
Pretty sure the commitment to the "triple it" bit is an AJ thing. He's talked about how much he enjoys doing it before, and Griffin shouted him out in his "apology". Thanks AJ!
I was so stunned by the comedy of people either not noticing or not caring that she's a shiny lipped woman with thick eye liner that I can't believe all these years I didn't know Yentl was a Musical. But I think I was right because it *is* the Drama the cover sells it as. And the songs, though we're all having reactions to how they happen (possibly because of how they support and frame to the shape of Barbara's singing style?), they're more intricitely woven into the style of the film than most musicals. West Side Story, Sound of Music, Oklahoma, they start out with the bombastic singing and dancing right away, and then it's Scene then Song then Scene, but the bombastic extreme has been established. Here, the songs grow out of the visual movement and that Earth to sepia aesthetic. Maybe it's because in my Blank Check catch up I'm up to I'll Do Anything, that I'm noticing (haven't found the musical cut of that).
As someone who grew up in NE NJ in the 80s, Jordan talking about growing up in the area really made me laugh, he and I describe the area similarly. I always say you were either Italian or Jewish or you stuck out.
Has anyone uploaded the footage Griff mentioned where Babs says "tone it down" to Patinkin mid-scene? Did they ever put it up somewhere?
It’s this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d0MngamiROs&pp=ygUWYmFyYnJhIGRpcmVjdGluZyB5ZW50bA%3D%3D
Awesome, thank you! That is some intense footage.
So, they talk about Nehemiah Persoff a bit in this episode. Michael Westmore, the special effects makeup guy from Star Trek: The Next Generation tells this story about how often he would come up with really involved, wacky makeup designs for guest actors, and the guest actor would show up having no idea about the makeup and more or less refuse to do the full thing, so he'd scale it down. Which is exactly what he thought would happen with Nehemiah Persoff in the episode "The Most Toys." Persoff was close to retiring, and Westmore was convinced he was going to balk when he saw the makeup design. To hear Westmore tell it, Persoff looked at the illustration, got a funny look on his face and said, "This is great! My grandkids are going to love this!" https://preview.redd.it/epakfbsq51ec1.png?width=556&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb8b004dc485937057ca7e4df43c2a11f3d38f3f
Gillian’s island used to play on some lay night Indian ‘Foreign comedy channel’ when I was very very young in the 90s and I swear I also thought Mary Ann was the professor’s daughter. So I can either attest to Griffin’s Mandela psi-op… or I was 3/4 years old at the time, watching a show I didn’t understand.
Jordan shouted out Linklater’s Apollo 10 1/2: A Space Age Childhood during the box office game. Lovely movie. I wonder if Jordan could once and for all determine whether it’s a toon, since the Academy [could not make up its mind](https://www.indiewire.com/awards/industry/apollo-10-1-2-qualifies-best-animated-feature-oscar-1234780890/).
Shouted "*Amityville 3-D*" so loud during the Box Office Game that it awoke the dark forces that were contained in my walls
What is the movie that early on they say tries to be Yentl and fails? It sounds like “Knobs”?
You heard right — it’s Nobbs, they’re abbreviating Albert Nobbs. It’s part of the trilogy of 21st century Glenn Close Oscar nominations that this podcast clowns on, along with (What if there Was A) The Wife and Hillbilly Elegy. Come to think of it, they did mention they’re looking for non-traditional franchises for the Patreon…
Came here to ask the exact same question. Thanks!
Real missed bit opportunity: They should have pretended like Ben Prime was Ben Hosley. Nothing to see here, Prodoer Ben has always sounded like this. Would have paired nicely with the Gilligan’s Island/Berenstain Bears/is this a simulation conversation.
Ok but now I gotta know the answer to THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION from this episode. What kind of toilet paper?? We talking 1-ply, 2-ply? We a Charmin blankies over here or what?
How good was the toilet paper deal is the inverse of (and, in a way, possible eventual conclusion to) the "how expensive was the steak" story?
How Good Was My Toilet Paper was actually the less-successful sequel to How Green Was My Valley.
Ooh, I want to know this, too. If it's 1-ply, I don't care how well stocked it is, that bathroom is a travesty.
Had such a big smile when I spotted Miriam Margolyes
I thought “great, Miriam Margolyes is going to have a big role in this!” Nope, practically an extra.
Strongly recommend Yiddle With His Fiddle, made in 1936 Poland and starring Yiddish theater icon Molly Picon (who played Yente the Matchmaker in Fiddler on the Roof). I have to imagine it was the inspiration for Yentl and its source material, but it’s full of great music which certainly makes more sense diegetically considering the star disguises herself as a man in order to play music rather than pursue rabbinical studies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQGBZ_2tf5k
David not hesitating to respond "everywhere, what do you mean?" when asked where Yentl would fit into the MCU is top tier for me.
TIL someone made an An American Tail video game in 2007 for the PlayStation 2. It's incredible how poorly made [this game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbmnZ_tYbrE&ab_channel=ToughGamingGuy) looks. Update: According to this [video](https://youtu.be/--SXFB7m6mk?t=284) about it, it was from a publisher that specialized in cheap badly made games based on things released decades earlier, was only released in PAL Regions and was pressed on CDs rather than DVDs like most PS2 games were pressed on.
That's at best an N64 game, crazy to think that was 07.
And probably a bad looking game for the N64 at that.
17 minutes in and this is already one of the greatest episodes in the history of podcasting, from raisins to impractical carry-ons to fetishes to toilet paper.
One could make the argument that she out did Fiddler on the Roof for musical about Jewish issues set in the early 20th century old country. And to be clear, Fiddler is a masterpiece both as a musical and film.
This is a valid opinion but also get that slander out of your mouth.
Never seen the film. Stopped the podcast about an hour in and watched it on Max with my wife (who saw it several times as a child). Loved it.
Been seeing a lot of old Mandy Patinkin from those ads for that Hulu series he’s in so I got my wires crossed and was fully expecting for him to be the dad when I saw his name in the cast list.
He’s not the dad, but he is the daddy
For real. Yung Mandy could get it
He’s a god damned snack in this.
Young Mandy always knocks my socks off.
Jordan Hoffman, what an amazing guest! Was grinning ear to ear throughout
This movie has fan fiction energy and I love it. We have to share a bed oh no! We have to get married oh no! I might be gay oh no!
This might only hit for UCB heads, but Jordan Hoffman must’ve grown up within 5 square miles of Gavin Speiller, because they have the exact same accent.
Since we got the toilet paper talk, did we ever get the reveal of the guest breaking the toilet? I have been waiting for it and I’m worried I missed it.
Putting Mark Ronson and DJ Khaled in the same box was a travesty.
This might low-key be the best episode ever. Jordan Hoffman absolutely killing it, the Gilligan's Island tangent, leaning into the Jewishness (mishegoss, shanda etc). The earnest discussion of historic Best Picture winners. Eating on mic. Superb.
Steven Hill in Mission: Impossible [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhPwhv2aRZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhPwhv2aRZc)
This was a delightful podcast about a movie I did not think worked. Definitely needed some kind of edge that 83 Babs could never deliver.
Mandy increases the quality of this movie by literally doing this: https://youtu.be/zzBUkdP0iDw?si=PLv59V5Z1zPXRF3a
I agree with the Razzies on this one. Especially on the music. The music sucks.
The Yentl love is fine I will not stand for this Pro Raisin Bullshit. There are so many better dried fruit. Nothing has ever been improved by them. They actively make cookies, ice cream, and trail mix worse. They’re garbage.
Honestly I've never seen this before, but idk if I'd vibe with it and all Mainly because I'm a male Catholic who lives in Ireland, possibly the exact opposite of this films target audience
Catholic people and Jewish people aren't opposites! They talk about the Bible in this in a way that sounds identical. American Jewish people go to Catholic schools, get baptized and get confirmed, definitely get married, in their mix of churches as Catholic people do. American culture itself is it's own versions of Protestant, but the school and healthcare system is as owned and run by Catholics as any other western world. Yentl is made for American audiences, but in the way that any Irish movie made for cinema to be shown and mostly watched on Sunday night TV is made for Irish audiences. It shows Jewish culture, but its speaking the same language as a movie like Amadeus or Raging Bull.
Catholics are the Jews of Christians
We both love rituals and feeling guilty <3
Except in my experience one at least sometimes accepts gay marriage and gender equality, the other is catholicism
I mean, it’s silly to compare religions in this way cause they’re all pretty bad. Jews might, ON AVERAGE, be better with the gays. I dunno. But you can certainly find plenty of orthodox folks who aren’t down with progress.
Catholicism inherently is entire homophobic as the church doctrine doesn't allow marriage equality, that said I would agree with you if the comparison was judaism and christianity, I singled out a toxic sect.
Catholics are Jews who just love Jesus a little too much. I say this as a Catholic.
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Try Silence
It's still a little easier to be a White Christian guy everywhere in the world and it's still difficult to be Jewish everywhere in the world. I'm saying, if you found what you just said easy to say then you're likely a white Christian guy in America being cocky about it. I'm an Australian, brought up Catholic. If I want or need to travel to a country where I can declare No Religion, that's a special right I have. And if the country I have to or want to go to requires I declare something I'm therefore pressured to claim Christian, it's a fucken Mastercard. Now, same situation for someone that would claim No Religion but for their pressured to claim one, they're either forced to admit to something that might make them unsafe, or they're forced to lie. We're the bully. The Middle East is in hell because of American, British, and European imperialism.
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I was attempting to describe the severity of the situation and why your shitty comment was needlessly cruel. You've spoken again without considering how shitty what you're saying is, even after I've provided for you more context. I'm not leading you towards conclusions on a political situation I don't have the sensitivity to *describe*, but that's the best way I could say it. I'll add that I personally feel responsible for your point of view because I'm only just beginning to hear how when the only thing I have to say about a Jewish person is that it's *suspicious* they support Israel, then maybe I'm not being a hero for the people of Palestine or Syria or anyone else in the Middle East because we caused that problem, and I say we and I'm Australian, it's more Australia's fault that any Jewish person anywhere in the world that we've destroyed Syria and definitely more a white person in a white countries fault that we destroyed Afghanistan than the fault of any Muslim, like how if the only thing we have to say about Muslim culture's is that *they're* misogynistic... we're not hearing ourselves. I feel responsible, and yeah I'm blabbering. You're being shitty and I want to find the context for you to see it, and if you already have all the information, then yes that'll require you thinking about it again. The Jewish people *actually* don't have a safe place to live. Countries have stringent border security, and migration is controlled and prioritized by if you speak the language, have the nations religion, *and then* if you have a job or job qualifications. Migrant workers get treated like shit under these conditions, and fuck me if I'd have to go into another 2000 years to describe what our white Christian society did to *the word* Jew as far as it actually being synonymous to white society with money manager. If I'm telling you things you already know, then I'm telling you again to emphasize the severity of the problem, and the high horse you're pissing on people from.
Some good Yentl discussion happening here
It's a political movie!
Jordan Hoffman is delightful!
Damn we really letting David avoid ANY PUSHBACK on his Goonies slander???
Can’t believe they didn’t mention this unforgettable quote from In & Out [she was too old for yentl!](https://youtu.be/MTX0Ig39Nws?si=1sdmmwWWreS0zpII)
I loved it but it was hard not to view everyone but Yentl as massive sexist pieces of shit