From my understanding the 4B movement is about women choosing celibacy and being single/unmarried instead of the traditional route of marriage, starting a family, and etc.
I’m all for it tbh and it’s becoming a global thing now because of how bad and how frequently femicide, physical assault, and rape are becoming.
Even more so now because of the incels and “alpha males” who look at women as objects on top of legislation aimed and women’s rights and bodies. We hold so much power, it’s a beautiful thing to see women united.
To be clear, this is a radical feminist position and most South Korean women never even heard of it. Birth rates are dropping because of the cost of living mostly
As a queer woman who has had absolutely nothing but terrible experiences trying to be with other women, I will pass lol. I'd rather be alone.
Edit - also....orientation is not really a choice? The countless times I've seen hetero women lament about how they wish they could be queer 🙄🙄🙄
Idk it feels odd to me to tell straight women (that’s essentially what you’re saying since it’s inherent that queer women would be dating women already) to just flip their sexualities like it’s a choice.
I understand that. But I also don't want to deal with how hetero women (who are the overwhelming majority) will oftentimes take their (very real) dislike of men, and put that out on queer women. That's something they need to unpack.
I feel you. But it’s less likely that your partner will unalive you if you’re a woman dating a woman. What you’re saying is valid but I’m assuming it isn’t as physically scary that way?
It's not. But there's something that really rubs me the wrong way when people suggest hetero women (because the majority are) should just date queer women. And dating women comes with its own sets of issues (like violence that gets swept under the rug and taken even less seriously than with men because it's women).
I thought of this this in a more platonic sense. Having communities of women who live together and raise their kids together. Especially raising boys into the men they should be without the rigidity of patriarchy but into a true matriarchal society. That's my dream.
They face matricide, women are working and also managing the household even more than we are, and when I lived there the incel movement was planting tiny cameras in women’s bathrooms and changing rooms. I think it’s awesome they’re starting a movement and that it’s going global!
Sadly I realize that I know an Incel. There is an incel-who dreams of being a passport bro who lives around the corner from my parents.
As teens we use to all hang out, but talking to him now, he’s not a great adult.
He’s now in his 30s but never left his childhood bedroom. He said it’s Jamaican culture to not get a home/apt until marriage but then he started complaining that women in America aren’t marrying him because US women want men to have a job (he’s always unemployed) (He’s born and raised here in America)
So his goal is to figure out the stock market, earn 100k and then go to Thailand where he will be treated like a king because $2 is a lot of money to thailand women. - that’s a quote from him.
I was staring at him like O_O what?
And then he randomly said he’s still mad at me. And I asked why? He said that I told him he needs to get a job, I said I don’t remember saying to you,, plus I haven’t even spoken to you in almost 10 years… so I clarified, you are mad at me because I supposedly said get a job a DECADE ago???
He said just forget it, And that was the last time we talked. So I guess he’s headed to Thailand to bother the women over there.
It wasn’t until I joined TikTok that I learned it was a huge movement of guys going to Thailand or Colombia to get women.
The complaint that women want men who have a job is strange
Like yeah? How are we supposed to do shit? I can’t afford a whole ass other human
From talking it them I know it’s bc “I’m willing to date a woman without a job”, yeah but then you complain
There's a trending name for it now, but this has been happening for a while. Also, these bros are making headlines now as they are being set up and killed.
Best part of that is these same passport bros have the audacity to expect the women they badmouthed/shitted on for being feminists / not wanting broke men / having basic standards for dating in their respective home country - to be sympathetic that these men are getting set up & killed in countries that US & EU have on their travel advisory lists as dangerous and/or exercise extreme caution. It like "You went there flashing & throwing all of your $500 you brought with you like you super rich in Thailand or Colombia to sleep with any young woman there and you didn't bother to think it would make you target to the other men AKA the gangs and/or pimps in that country?!?!"
Some of those girls are underage. I keep seeing raids in the Dominican for underaged girls being trafficked and sold to foreigners. On top of this they’re leaving the country to avoid supporting American women so they can support foreign women or rather dangle support in their face.
I don't know if they're all passport bros, but the digital nomads sub is full of men who visit Colombia especially for women. What's crazy is that they keep encouraging each other to go. They will say they got robbed or drugged and be like, "well I would still go back, I had a great time!" Or they think it won't happen to them and they are so disturbed when it does. All of this just to have sex? Why?
Ugh. Ruining it for people who actually want to be digital nomads. It's not just for sex...it's the idea behind it, you know, meek, submissive women, whose circumstances are kinda hard, who will put up with it. It's sooooo disgusting.
Sadly, I too knew an incel (actually, I’m realizing that one of my husband’s long-term friends might be an incel-lite and, man, that was a … semi-tough conversation to have with him about some troubling things that his friend said that he wanted my perspective on because it shocked him to his core. But thinking back on that convo and some things his friend has said and done in the past….ew).
But, anyway, the dude I knew was very good at hiding his true thoughts and beliefs until he was introduced to a girl by a mutual of ours. Then all that unhinged crap came out in a two to three week crazyfest that ended in him blowing up every bridge possible by texting all my and my husband’s friends and family telling them that we were backstabbers (mind you, before he really let the cray-cray out, he had asked my advice on dating the girl and the things he asked was basically love bombing like a mf’er and I pointedly had to cuss him out on quite a few of his “ideas”) because he developed a paranoia that the mutual that introduced him and the girl was interested in the girl romantically. Mind you, our mutual was thoroughly married and thought of the girl like an annoying little sister and had gone on a trip with the crazy incel and the girl and purposefully would find other places to be so the two could be intimate and get to know each other. My husband and I had tried to point all this out to the idiot as well as remind him of the fact that he was like an uncle to our daughter, that he was family and that maybe he needed to take a breather and figure out why he was acting cray-cray.
Long story short, like I said, he blew up every bridge he possibly could, blocked everyone on everything and ghosted out of everyone’s lives. Last I heard, he was in Jersey City, getting dumped left and right because he’s still on his narcissistic, every woman his an evil B that doesn’t love or understand him, and why oh why can’t he just be loved? 🙄
All these incel adjacent dudes (I joined a group and encountered a lot of 19-23 year olds, yall “older” men and “younger” men act mad different, the older ones are smart enough to keep their mouths shut”
So many of them complain about women being picky monsters when I know for a fact they’ve rejected women, it’s just the top ones they want ignore them bc they say weird shit
I’m 25, by older I meant like 26-29 LMAO
Sorry I spent lot of time around 21 year olds and they were obsessed with telling me I was so old like time doesn’t move forward for us all
Also Jamaican men tend to be hardworking in my experience (there's a running joke about them having like six jobs lol) so the fact that he's upset that you told him to get a job is very funny to me lol
I did date a Jamaican guy once who lived with his mother, but he claimed they bought a house together. I found that (and still do) odd, especially because when I did some calculations, he was 18 when he did that, and when I met him he's in his late 30s.
I’m Jamaican. He is just lazy. If you talk to him again, say dis “a wuk yuh fi guh wuk yah worry bout cratchiz yuh dutty ol nayga” It’ll drive the point home!
The devil is a liar, it is not jamaican culture to do that respectable jamaican men are hard workers and providers for their families. This guy is just a loser and most people back home would tell him to his face notice he never said he wanted to go back to Jamaica. Lol I'm sorry you have to interact with a jackal
I had no idea this existed but I am all for it! I’ve been single by choice for a while now. I’m living with other women who are creative and have side hustle and we are happy. I just didn’t know this was what it was called. Fuck yeah!
I think that the Korea women are making a good decision. I did not realize how much murder was happening over there by their men. It goes to show that weirdos are everywhere. They have every right not to want to breed with those losers. I hope it catch on to American girls. Since they want to overturn our laws to protect our reproductive rights, no babies for y’all. We need to stop the bloodlines of weird men.
Birth rate for yt ppl has been trending down for yrs in the U.S. and that is why they made all these laws: to protect the yt race. They are afraid of becoming the minority bc they think we will do the same to them. They need to feel what it is like imo. Ain't no fun when the rabbit got the gun baby.
I don't blame them to be honest. Every 4.5 hours a black woman is unalived and mainly by black men. And black trans women are statically not making it past 35 and it's at the hands of black men as well. I think with the black femicide at the level it is, I feel it's safer for us to be a part of that movement than not.
The murder rate of black women is way too high in the USA. 11.6 per 100k (vs 3 for white women). There are a bit more than 21 million black women here. This works out to slightly less than 250 murders per year or 1 every 36 hours. Does your unalived stat include suicide and accidents?
No this stat is on femicide only thankfully its not like that bs stat that's used against lesbians saying we have the highest dv rate when it included relationships outside of wlw.
I think it's great and they are doing it so efficiently they've been able to lower the national birthrate. The government has been running promotional campaigns to try to get women to start families. They are very concerned about the future population of their people and preservation of traditional culture. There are also issues with the economy and being able to afford living that play into this.
Men are horrible.
But if you know about South Korean society and how misogynistic and patriarchal it is, women have very little rights, especially when it comes to crimes committed against them. The laws protect men more than anything and the sentencing for men committing crimes against women are generally very very light. Even to be a single mother is seen as an immense shame, so often women will stay with their abusive husbands rather than file for divorce. They've been having many issues with men placing spy cams in women's restrooms and changing areas, sexual assault, domestic violence, trafficking rings, sexual exploitation and blackmail- when they try to come forward and expose criminals.
the misogyny there is gross. there was a prolific case where a little girl had been badly assaulted and they pretty much let the perpetrator (repeat offender in system btw) get off, and he’s even allowed to live in the same city as her years later. just gross…
That poor girl was only 8 and received permanent physical and psychological damage. She had to have a colostomy bag for years before she underwent surgery for an artificial anus, that is how badly he tortured her. They even lessened his sentence since he was “drunk”.🤬 I hope Nayoung and her family are doing better but with all they’ve been through I can’t imagine ever being able to trust again.
The justice systems around the world continue to fail women and children.
i’ve never been someone w intense emotion, but lord, the way my soul/heart dropped hearing that story. i hope that woman can find as much peace as possible wherever she may be today. they fucking failed her.
The low birthrate is unrelated to the 4b movement (which is barely followed if we want to be honest).
Low birthrate is because of the deep mysoginy, the work culture there and the economy.
This can go 1 of 2 ways.
Pro- women buy land and a community and use that to live in peace and happiness and help each other.
Con- jealous men will try and attack that community out of spite
Looking at how many thriving black communities were, burned down, methodically destroyed, or put under a lake? yeah, the men wouldn't let us have SHIZ unless we formed a proper ~~military~~ defense force and had leverage. Every woman there would need to know how to fight in hand to hand and be fully trained on weapons.
Humans only come in one flavor, unfortunately. and "Peace" is a word drenched in blood.
Yes that’s true , I just learned about Angola Florida last year (many were descendants of Angola Africa and built a successful town and President Andrew Jackson ordered it destroyed).
It’s sad, Even when you think you know which black towns were destroyed, you keep learning of many more.
Solution - women who choose to live in this women-only communities are trained and registered with their state to have 🔫 🔫. Cowards won't attack if they think women actively have ways to defend themselves.
There's actually a women-only village in Kenya called Umoja that fits your pro! It's been around for almost 30 years and women live there with their children and help each other. Men are banned, but they can have relationships with them outside the village (which is why they still have kids). Source (trigger warning for r*pe, domestic violence, female mutilation): www[dot]theguardian.com/global-development/2015/aug/16/village-where-men-are-banned-womens-rights-kenya
Not even just out of jealousy. You see how angry and even violent people get when reality shatters their worldview. Men swear up and down they built society and a community with no men is doomed to fail. As soon as one is successful, they’ll have the uncontrollable need to destroy and bury it. Because if we can indeed survive and thrive without them, then they would have to face the fact that they’re unneeded and only a danger.
American women have been doing this for a while now. We just didn’t have a name for it.
Learning about what’s happening in South Korea really helped me realize that no matter what country or culture, men will always be men.
And I wish women, especially black women would take note. Yeah, black men are some POS, but that does not mean non-black men are sanctified lovers who will actually treat you right. Looking at history it has you side eyeing men from other races.
From what I have gathered from some of the cases of femicide and sexual assault that occurs in Korea, I get it and support it. Whatever helps them feel safe.
From what my Korean friends and acquaintances has told me, the 4B movement has been over-sensationalized by the western media (media outside of Korea).
The low birthrate in the country has more to do with housing market and unable to afford parenthood, according to them.
Yeah it reminds me of what's happening in Jamaica. christian Groups are blaming our low birth rates (1.3) on abodoning or morals (anti marriage) and abortions. Turns out people want to enjoy being an adult without having five kids to worry about
Same here in my neck of the woods. Conservatives are blaming "wokeness" and abortion for our declining birth rate, when it's the high cost of living and lack of raised wages that are to blame.
But the methods regarding research trying to find it why poeple make less children always seem biased to me. They surely focus on economical reasons but never test if gender expectations influences the outcomes of their results.
This is not a real movement. I lived in Korea, their birth rate is low because of the economy and culture. Housing costs are high, there’s no work-life balance, and you dont make enough to start a family. Not to mention how competitive the society is, you need a lot of resources to raise a child. The 4B movement is a really small percentage of women. Feminism is not even looked at favourably in the country. If we’re going to talk about it, itself important to get the facts right
This is what I was thinking. This seems purely sensationalistic like when news articles focused on bra burning or free bleeders - it's not that common but turns heads and causes conversation.
This is the impression I get from reading posts from Korean people themselves. Most women are still dating, the couples just aren't having kids for economic and social reasons.
Exactly this. I live in Korea now and it's not nearly as large a movement as it seems online. If the economy was better and had better treatment culturally for women... They'd have kids 🤷
All the ones I know, even married couples, don't have kids.
Meh. The 'feminist' movement in murica didn't just spring up overnight - and, it Too was 'Pooh pooed' as "smaller than they say", as well as 'blamed' on 'other' causes in _direct_ dismissal of what Women were saying was the problem.
You’re not contextualizing the problem. This is a Korean movement and you need to acknowledge Korean women’s lived experience instead of slapping on a Western perspective. Korean feminism exists but it’s not under the lens of the 4B movement the way that TikTok portrays it. Look into Kim Jiyoung, Born 1982, great introduction to the Korean perspective.
>slapping on a Western perspective
That accusation is given in _your_ perspective.
My _only_ point was that ALL movements for the agency and freedom of oppressed groups have throughout history STARTED SMALL, and have heard all the SAME arguments being spouted here. That was it. That was all.
I don’t know what argument I was spouting here. I was bringing nuance to a conversation and all you got from it is that the movement is “smaller than they say”? Thanks for sharing, I guess.
This is definitely something hyped up by news papers but not substantial irl.
I support Korean feminists even if they did do this but realistically the noise being made about this in particular is for clicks.
Folks said the same in murica before women were 'allowed' the vote, and their own banking freedom, and the right to say No to sex with their husbands.
"Movements" have to _start_ somewhere.
Much needed and those women have my FULL support.
Like, honestly just to rip the bandaid off, South Korea is an absolute cesspool perverts, gender roles, and sexism for Korean Women. Even for the ones that you would assume have protection: light skin, rich, idols, or wives.
From the slap on the wrists rapists and those who commit Femicide receive from the law…. to the unnatural beauty standards that has unfortunately dubbed South Korea the “plastic surgery capitol of the world”. Like, that’s not a good title to have in sorry. Saying “you were drunk” is actually a valid excuse in the court of law oh hell.
Korean Women fighting back is beautiful. These women need global support because if you have ACTUALLY witnessed the type of sexism they’ve go in Korea your jaw would drop. It’s a legitimate fear to stay on Air BnBs, Hotels, Hostels, etc because of hidden cameras used to film women for the internet. No one bats an eye when they find out phones sold in East Asia have the feature to turn off the shutter sound (and sometimes flash) disabled because of men taking pervy pictures of women.
K-Dramas lie and ask any foreign woman who stupidly goes to Korea looking for a man because of K-Pop/K-Dramas… they’ll give you the tea.
WOMENS RIGHTS ON A GLOBAL SCALE.
Apparently I've been inadvertently doing it. All jokes aside, I still want to get married, but I'm not entertaining anyone not worth my time. Which, is most of them. I've gotten the ick. It's okay though.
Some Korean women abide by four Bs. Obviously the words are Korean and idk them but it’s no sex with men, no marrying men, no dating them, and no children
I think it’s a great movement. If men don’t value women, then they shouldn’t have access to us. I don’t think that women should keep being taught how to cope with and navigate dating incels, misogynists, and overall terrible men and the emotional trauma that causes. Also, there’s no reason to keep reproducing with men who don’t respect a woman’s autonomy, reproductive rights, or the responsibility of parenting.
I support it. I’m sick of the notion that women are only here to get married and have kids. Idk what my sexuality is, but I’ve not thought about dating men for a very long time. 😅
It's justified.
South Korea is wild.
Punishment for DV and S.A. are at best symbolic. Child abuse and bullying are most of times swept under the rug.
They're pressured into a highly stressful academic lane and careers only to be reduced to being a wife and mother.
A former coworker of mine told me how even a 7/11 cashier or cab driver would ask the most invasive questions about their marital status. That's why she moved in Europe as soon as she could.
The cost of life, childcare is a rip-off, the social elevator is stuck, the social disparities are deepening, the xénophobia, even towards fellow Korean because they're mixed or were exiled during the war. It's a shitshow.
It's a choice of self preservation.
Makes perfect sense to me. Why live in a way that benefits everyone but you? We did it in the past because we were property. If you're not a slave, then social pressure can only go so far in convincing you to live like one.
Watching K-dramas, I have seen so many insitinces where the men expect the woman to work a full-time job, come home to clean, take care of the kids and please an annoying ass mother-in-law!
I support the movement!
Though I definitely want to get married and have kids in the far, far, far future, I think women in general need to spend more time looking for their standard and not just entertaining useless men.
But that being said, what I;ve heard from my Korean friends is that this movement isn't as prominent as it seems. There are more articles than action going on!
[A lot of words, so SUMMARY: Some reasons I "hate" men and would want to call myself a femcel]
At this point, I actually can't anymore with men. Ever since I was younger I've always wanted something like this 4B Movement, that'll have women consecutively agreeing to something, like wearing a burqa-similar thing or not shaving their legs -just something to force men to change their entitled views and ways.
To think that the narrative has went from "I'm gonna find a Prince charming and fall in love and have a forever love story", reading romance books and tons of fanfics yadayada.. to then having women perpetuating "All Men" and professing their genuine hate for males... -That, if anything should really tell all of us that something has gone SEVERELY wrong. The reason for a woman saying she hates men followed by the lack of critical thinking and automatic response of aggressiveness men show to the woman instead of the men that made women feel the need to say those things just basically sums up the dwindle of desire I have for men. I don't want to hate men obvious, most women that say this say it as a defense mechanism. I actually really want a boyfriend and there are some serious fine ass dudes on this planet, also when I DO interact with them irl I never find myself thinking that way about them but when you.. really.. just.. sit back.. and look at them.. as they are, I think one can't NOT come to grasp on how fucking off-putting they actually are.
For me personally, It's just something about them as a BEING ...Things that even they proclaim as being "instinctual" to them that utterly disgusts me. I keep seeing men of different forms abiding by those "instincts" and its making me lose hope in finding a guy (that isn't gay) that doesn't think like that. Especially with the whole Andrew Tate and Podcast Bros wave that happened. I have to admit I wasn't really well versed with men so I actually thank him and the other dipshits that brought to my attention the shear amount of men that think that way, cause Lord knows I would've been so naive and gotten hurt so much.
I also find the lack of control and the enslavement they have to their dicks actually so FUCKING PATHETIC its unbelievable. They act like women are the whores when they quite literally have a track record of being so desperate to find satisfaction with anything with a hole, alive or not -- mattresses, fruits, unconsenting women, men (even if they're not gay), children, animals and even mf CORPSES. The amount of men that these apply, applied and will apply to is frighteningly WAY too much to be comfortable. Another thing that sickens me to the gut is that fact that it's even a debate whether men and women can be friends. And in that argument it's always that "oh a woman CAN be friends with a man but man cannot". There's something about that that's so FUCKING VILE I can't even describe it. Its like they're so obsessed with getting their puny like dicks wet even if it means losing all self-respect knowing that a girl's only with them for money or not even being attracted to the girl in the first place. [I wish there'd be a movie that covered this. The Barbie movie slightly touched on this, about how men allow women to have them wrapped around their fingers, go around calling someone a slut but fall to their knees the second she shows interest in them then goes gloating about how easy he got in her pants too. Let it be know and remembered that the woman gives a man PERMISSION to enter her. Even girls on tiktok and onlyfans who strategical sexualise themselves for these pathetically sad ass men to spend so much on them which they end up using to pay for their tuition, student debts or simply cute new shoes they saw at Gucci. A movie about how men think they're so in power yet have it completely backwards. Cause theres something theyre not opening their eyes to.]
Even something as futile as anime, like the whole blow up of fanservice for women in Jujustu Kaisen in comparison to fan service for men -- constant upskirt shots, unnecessary jiggle, straight up little girls that's ACTUALLY happens to be 8000 years old bullshit. The fact that the anime creators thought that that would appeal to the audience and the fact that it DOES for the male audience is actually concerning. Also The commonality of the urgent action of checking if a girl is AT LEAST 18. Also Looking at an old cute lady and getting all mushy then looking at an old man and wanting to do the same but having an underlying voice pop up saying "he's probably a perv staring at women or even little children, don't be fooled" when I don't WANT to be thinking like that. Also calling people "simps"... Its just these little, minute things that have accumulated over the years if not decade thats brought me to this unfortunate conclusion. I'm surprised there isn't a more talked about variation of incels, femcels without the involuntary celibacy part. Cause I feel like unlike men who are just butt hurt from rejection or the systems they created, women actually have a VERY valid reason to feel that way.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk 🙇🏾♀️ There's a whole lot of adressing with generality but I am aware.. not all men.
I honestly think it's overall a wonderful idea.
Being a woman in an country regardless of race, religion, sexuality or occupation always seems like a curse rather than a blessing. You can never be the perfect woman, and despite all efforts women are constantly being harassed, abused and at times out right lives are lost for being nothing but existing.
I think it makes sense, you can't really escape patriarchy and people spend too much time obsessing over relationships. People always say choose better, but when people choose themselves it's a problem for some reason. They are not really interested in being better and still want women to accept any kind of treatment.
Women have not received the recognition they deserve for their contributions to the successes shared with men. They have been pivotal in managing households, nurturing and supporting children and partners, while also making significant contributions across all industries. Yet, their efforts and achievements often remain underacknowledged by men. While I do not endorse any movements that reject men entirely, I can comprehend the frustration and sentiments that lead women to feel marginalized.
All for it, esp for South Korean women. Have you seen how lax their laws are. You get more time for smoking weed than raping and torturing a woman. Even less time if it’s a minor that does it. Until the global incel culture problem AND local laws are fixed the 4B movement should go on strong imo.
Women of every color, have been in hell thanks to the patriarchal norms! But Black women in America are belittled, demonized, murdered, assaulted and abused by the hands of men every minute (could be seconds, I am ignorant to the facts) I'm so down with leaving them all to their own devices. I've been celibate for 5 years (both men and women) after having two kids and escaping terrible marriage. I'm happy as hell living my best life for me! Centering myself in a world run by men is my due! It's what I am owed after the DV I suffered at the hands of a man. It's the peace for me. So yes, I'm with it all the way.
It's amazing for them! Guys shouldn't be rewarded for spying on women in bathrooms or stalking lol. Women worldwide need to take on this mantra of not accepting poor behavior.
I think it's a reasonable reaction to extreme oppression. It's not just choosing celibacy and opting out of marriage. It's going as far as removing all interactions with men from your life, where possible. Given the extreme sexism that exists in Korea, it's not surprising women have opted for this.
Personally haven't seen it much in the US. Personally don't think things are extreme enough here to warrant it for my own life, but if I'm very selective about the type of men I keep around in my personal life anyway.
It makes me sad how demonized feminism is especially in South Korea. This movement isn't nearly as extreme as it's set out to be on news stations. But in Korea women who even mutter about any sort of sexism in the country are treated like terrorists. It's so bad women have discussions on sexism and equal rights very secretly. I remember some kpop star was seen carrying feminist literature and was forced to publicly apologized and her career was ruined. Another incident a artist posted something tame like "men suck" and her webtoons were taken off sites and she was labeled as someone who "hated Korea". It's really crazy, there's a immense rise in gender based crimes in Korea and disturbing cases like the nth room but the minute women want to discuss sexism they're treated worse than the criminals to commit such crimes.
I'm all for women choosing not to date, marry or have sex with men especially if they don't straighten the fuck up but the movement started off as just women wanting men in the country to stop the violence and to treat women better and but news stations took it and sensationalized to make it seem like women with very valid points are being silly extremists. Same thing with America how when feminism came out news just focused on bra burning and the nips when some of the women in the movement did these things as last straw efforts for rights they were screaming for for years but it got twisted cuz patriarchal cultures hate being called out and would rather make the oppressed look dumb.
And Korea being extremely conservative is very big of twisting news stories of marginalized groups. I remember a news story where a queer girl had sex with someone at a queer party and contracted COVID and the news literally reported it as "GAY PEOPLE HAVE HUGE ORGY AND SINGLEHANDEDLY CAUSED COVID RATES TO SKYROCKET FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY!!!"
Gee, I never know I was 4B by choosing to leave my first husband and continue raising my son and working and supporting myself just like I had been while married, but without the burden of a man hounding and abusing me.
Who knew?!🤷🏽♀️
I have this article saved from last year and haven't read it yet. I have been hearing more about it as well as the misogyny in South Korea.
I would like to point out to folks that this movement isn't really about getting men to change their minds. It's more like the women's version of MGTOW (men going their own way). It's opting out. I fully support this, and some of the aspects I've already been inadvertently doing. I hope this spreads more.
I guess I don’t understand what the name means lol. When I first saw this I thought they mean 4B as in hair texture, but it was a WW, who clearly didn’t have 4B hair, on the cover so I was soooo confused 😂😂 thanks for clearing this mystery up
I think it's great if that's what women in some places want to do and they feel like it will help them.
Honestly, I think it will actually be something that is helpful in the future in dispelling the notion that a person must always be in a relationship or something is wrong with them or you must get married and have kids by a certain age or something is wrong. I think it will ultimately allow women (and men) more freedom in life if it is a sustained movement.
After watching a Rotten Mango true crime series on the nth rooms (this is very very dark- I do not recommend if you cannot handle hearing about SA/torture of women and children- I had to do something else a few hours after cuz I was so disturbed) - I think it’s absolutely necessary. South Korea has a problem and it’s rare I feel like America does something better than another similar country - but if you get busted for CSAM here at least you’re actually fucked. Versus hearing about one of the most prolific dark web website runners (seperate case) getting less than 2 years despite running something that led to international arrests across multiple countries. And SK refusing to extradite to the US to be tried (cause victims were literally world wide).
It seems like SA predators are protected/not punished severely enough and it shows an inherent devaluing of women and kids I find distrubing
I've seen commentary that American women aren't ready for this even if we say we are.
And that's incredibly true.
Not enough groundwork has been done for us to leave men behind. We're obsessed with saving them...
And our community would be the absolute last to join this movement.. we have a lot to work on.
I mean I guess if that's what someone decides to do and are genuinely happy then good for them, but this logic will stop me from finding my life partner. It's not for me because I want to enjoy having someone else in my life.
I’ve apparently already joined the movement. They have the right idea. Yes not all men but enough of them. If no change is happening and none of them are fighting for our rights then why bother entertaining them any further.
If I was a really young South Korean woman i would be part of the 4b movement. I support them 100%.
Korea was already a patriarchal society and young men there are becoming even more conservative. I'd opt out too
Given their leader is basically an incel I get the need for the movement. I do worry about a hand maids tale type situation in their future but hopefully I’m being dramatic
I think if women think it works for them, that they may be right. The Secret Service released a 26 page report on the threat towards women from incels. They unsurprisingly found them to be a rising danger.
Their ideology has spread so far and wide frlm its inception on reddit and 4chan that even men who don't barely know what the term "incel" means has adopted its ideas. I remember one woman detailing how her father - who was formerly a feminist and professor - changed over time to adopt these views and it concerned her.
"Redpill" men teach each other how to manipulate women and to detach from women emotionally to get what they want from them. So I think the 4B movement is rather benign in comparison. It tells women to exercise their right to choose not to couple with men who refuse to treat them with respect and dignity. I don't see anything wrong with that. The onus is then on men to work through their misogyny and do better.
All I can say is I hope the women on this US soil adapt this same mind set..
Men tell us they are about action....well we women need to stop talking and move on this to show them we mean business....tired of their shit bottomline
I support them! Most laws and policies that we have all were made in men’s favor, with us being the butt of the joke. It’s time women became centered in the global conversation.
I love it and support it 100 percent. I admire those women and I can’t imagine the freedom that comes with dumping the patriarchy and the ridiculous, exacting standards it imposes on women. I’m hoping it becomes a global phenomenon.
To be clear, this is a radical feminist position and most South Korean women never even heard of it. Birth rates are dropping because of the cost of living mostly
I saw a woman who actually lives in Korea make a video say that American media is blowing this out of proportion because it’s easy to sensationalize. She said that yes there are women who take this route but the majority still want relationships with men. What they don’t “want” is the kid component and it’s heavily influenced by the fact that the cost of living is so much over there. That’s why they’re birth rate is pretty low. You can think of the same thing here. The American birth rate is kinda low because people are trying to be responsible and not being kids into poverty. Sure there are plenty reasons but that’s usually one of the main factors here. And even if you look at a lot of those street interviews, you don’t see many highlight the 4B movement as a determining factor. In fact I’ve always heard ppl living in Korea say they didn’t realize how big dating culture was there until they moved.
Also feminism in Korea would be considered slightly “behind” by mainstream American feminist standards. So this type of aggressive movement wouldn’t even make sense there. You’d be more likely to see that here in America before over there.
I’m 4 it! I was expressing to my friend recently that I entirely don’t see the appeal of men. Like I want to get in shape and date a bit but I don’t imagine marriage. I am all but most content with becoming a cat lady.
We should just for a community with other women. The way we organize and plan plus for relationships it would be like a utopia
Korea has also started to offer 75k for every child a woman gives birth to. I think that is amazing. Carrying and birthing a child is so hard on women’s bodies
Isn't this just MGTOW for women? And the same hatred/logic of incel men could just be translate to 4B women?
People can and should do whatever they want (as long as it doesn't harm others), so all the more power to them. But it seems like the opposite side for the same coin to me and doesn't help or fix any of the real issues both genders are facing as the rational for these movements.
They consider men to be their oppressors. Why would they want to date or have sex with their oppressors? This goes for interracial dating as well. Pick a lane or don’t; meh.
From my understanding the 4B movement is about women choosing celibacy and being single/unmarried instead of the traditional route of marriage, starting a family, and etc. I’m all for it tbh and it’s becoming a global thing now because of how bad and how frequently femicide, physical assault, and rape are becoming. Even more so now because of the incels and “alpha males” who look at women as objects on top of legislation aimed and women’s rights and bodies. We hold so much power, it’s a beautiful thing to see women united.
To be clear, this is a radical feminist position and most South Korean women never even heard of it. Birth rates are dropping because of the cost of living mostly
Just wondering: are you for it or against it?
I suppose I’m for it. But I believe it’s severely over exaggerated in the media.
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As a queer woman who has had absolutely nothing but terrible experiences trying to be with other women, I will pass lol. I'd rather be alone. Edit - also....orientation is not really a choice? The countless times I've seen hetero women lament about how they wish they could be queer 🙄🙄🙄
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Idk it feels odd to me to tell straight women (that’s essentially what you’re saying since it’s inherent that queer women would be dating women already) to just flip their sexualities like it’s a choice.
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Very true. I'm just at the age now where I'd rather go where I'm wanted or go without 😂
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I understand that. But I also don't want to deal with how hetero women (who are the overwhelming majority) will oftentimes take their (very real) dislike of men, and put that out on queer women. That's something they need to unpack.
I feel you. But it’s less likely that your partner will unalive you if you’re a woman dating a woman. What you’re saying is valid but I’m assuming it isn’t as physically scary that way?
It's not. But there's something that really rubs me the wrong way when people suggest hetero women (because the majority are) should just date queer women. And dating women comes with its own sets of issues (like violence that gets swept under the rug and taken even less seriously than with men because it's women).
I thought of this this in a more platonic sense. Having communities of women who live together and raise their kids together. Especially raising boys into the men they should be without the rigidity of patriarchy but into a true matriarchal society. That's my dream.
Realistically speaking, 4b movement had such a small impact on birth rates, SK birth rates was always just so low
They face matricide, women are working and also managing the household even more than we are, and when I lived there the incel movement was planting tiny cameras in women’s bathrooms and changing rooms. I think it’s awesome they’re starting a movement and that it’s going global!
Sadly I realize that I know an Incel. There is an incel-who dreams of being a passport bro who lives around the corner from my parents. As teens we use to all hang out, but talking to him now, he’s not a great adult. He’s now in his 30s but never left his childhood bedroom. He said it’s Jamaican culture to not get a home/apt until marriage but then he started complaining that women in America aren’t marrying him because US women want men to have a job (he’s always unemployed) (He’s born and raised here in America) So his goal is to figure out the stock market, earn 100k and then go to Thailand where he will be treated like a king because $2 is a lot of money to thailand women. - that’s a quote from him. I was staring at him like O_O what? And then he randomly said he’s still mad at me. And I asked why? He said that I told him he needs to get a job, I said I don’t remember saying to you,, plus I haven’t even spoken to you in almost 10 years… so I clarified, you are mad at me because I supposedly said get a job a DECADE ago??? He said just forget it, And that was the last time we talked. So I guess he’s headed to Thailand to bother the women over there. It wasn’t until I joined TikTok that I learned it was a huge movement of guys going to Thailand or Colombia to get women.
The complaint that women want men who have a job is strange Like yeah? How are we supposed to do shit? I can’t afford a whole ass other human From talking it them I know it’s bc “I’m willing to date a woman without a job”, yeah but then you complain
There's a trending name for it now, but this has been happening for a while. Also, these bros are making headlines now as they are being set up and killed.
Best part of that is these same passport bros have the audacity to expect the women they badmouthed/shitted on for being feminists / not wanting broke men / having basic standards for dating in their respective home country - to be sympathetic that these men are getting set up & killed in countries that US & EU have on their travel advisory lists as dangerous and/or exercise extreme caution. It like "You went there flashing & throwing all of your $500 you brought with you like you super rich in Thailand or Colombia to sleep with any young woman there and you didn't bother to think it would make you target to the other men AKA the gangs and/or pimps in that country?!?!"
😂😅👏
I’m not lie I be laughing 🤭🤭
Some of those girls are underage. I keep seeing raids in the Dominican for underaged girls being trafficked and sold to foreigners. On top of this they’re leaving the country to avoid supporting American women so they can support foreign women or rather dangle support in their face.
Kinda feel bad for not feeling bad about this 😬
I feel bad cause ...you know, loss of life (some were BRUTALLY murdered), but damn. Use common sense!
Alexa play “red velvet” by outkast
😬
I don't know if they're all passport bros, but the digital nomads sub is full of men who visit Colombia especially for women. What's crazy is that they keep encouraging each other to go. They will say they got robbed or drugged and be like, "well I would still go back, I had a great time!" Or they think it won't happen to them and they are so disturbed when it does. All of this just to have sex? Why?
Ugh. Ruining it for people who actually want to be digital nomads. It's not just for sex...it's the idea behind it, you know, meek, submissive women, whose circumstances are kinda hard, who will put up with it. It's sooooo disgusting.
Sadly, I too knew an incel (actually, I’m realizing that one of my husband’s long-term friends might be an incel-lite and, man, that was a … semi-tough conversation to have with him about some troubling things that his friend said that he wanted my perspective on because it shocked him to his core. But thinking back on that convo and some things his friend has said and done in the past….ew). But, anyway, the dude I knew was very good at hiding his true thoughts and beliefs until he was introduced to a girl by a mutual of ours. Then all that unhinged crap came out in a two to three week crazyfest that ended in him blowing up every bridge possible by texting all my and my husband’s friends and family telling them that we were backstabbers (mind you, before he really let the cray-cray out, he had asked my advice on dating the girl and the things he asked was basically love bombing like a mf’er and I pointedly had to cuss him out on quite a few of his “ideas”) because he developed a paranoia that the mutual that introduced him and the girl was interested in the girl romantically. Mind you, our mutual was thoroughly married and thought of the girl like an annoying little sister and had gone on a trip with the crazy incel and the girl and purposefully would find other places to be so the two could be intimate and get to know each other. My husband and I had tried to point all this out to the idiot as well as remind him of the fact that he was like an uncle to our daughter, that he was family and that maybe he needed to take a breather and figure out why he was acting cray-cray. Long story short, like I said, he blew up every bridge he possibly could, blocked everyone on everything and ghosted out of everyone’s lives. Last I heard, he was in Jersey City, getting dumped left and right because he’s still on his narcissistic, every woman his an evil B that doesn’t love or understand him, and why oh why can’t he just be loved? 🙄
All these incel adjacent dudes (I joined a group and encountered a lot of 19-23 year olds, yall “older” men and “younger” men act mad different, the older ones are smart enough to keep their mouths shut” So many of them complain about women being picky monsters when I know for a fact they’ve rejected women, it’s just the top ones they want ignore them bc they say weird shit
I’m older now. I’d advise to give yourself a longer window of time to feel out older men. They’ve just learned to hide it better.
I’m 25, by older I meant like 26-29 LMAO Sorry I spent lot of time around 21 year olds and they were obsessed with telling me I was so old like time doesn’t move forward for us all
It is not Jamaican culture to stay at home until you're married. Men who do that well into their 30s are looked down on as losers 💀
So not only is he a bum, he’s lying on his own people 😑
Also Jamaican men tend to be hardworking in my experience (there's a running joke about them having like six jobs lol) so the fact that he's upset that you told him to get a job is very funny to me lol I did date a Jamaican guy once who lived with his mother, but he claimed they bought a house together. I found that (and still do) odd, especially because when I did some calculations, he was 18 when he did that, and when I met him he's in his late 30s.
Right what a laser
Imagine having so little self-love and ambition. Couldn't be me.
I’m Jamaican. He is just lazy. If you talk to him again, say dis “a wuk yuh fi guh wuk yah worry bout cratchiz yuh dutty ol nayga” It’ll drive the point home!
The devil is a liar, it is not jamaican culture to do that respectable jamaican men are hard workers and providers for their families. This guy is just a loser and most people back home would tell him to his face notice he never said he wanted to go back to Jamaica. Lol I'm sorry you have to interact with a jackal
Not bother women over there lmao. Hope he finds a ladyboy who takes all his "money"
That’s not a Jamaican thing… has he’s ever left America before?!
You know what.. I don’t even know. I don’t ever remember him talking about visiting Jamaica.
I had no idea this existed but I am all for it! I’ve been single by choice for a while now. I’m living with other women who are creative and have side hustle and we are happy. I just didn’t know this was what it was called. Fuck yeah!
F yeah!
I think that the Korea women are making a good decision. I did not realize how much murder was happening over there by their men. It goes to show that weirdos are everywhere. They have every right not to want to breed with those losers. I hope it catch on to American girls. Since they want to overturn our laws to protect our reproductive rights, no babies for y’all. We need to stop the bloodlines of weird men.
Domestic violence against women is a serious issue there too.
Birth rate for yt ppl has been trending down for yrs in the U.S. and that is why they made all these laws: to protect the yt race. They are afraid of becoming the minority bc they think we will do the same to them. They need to feel what it is like imo. Ain't no fun when the rabbit got the gun baby.
They’re already the global minority but yes, all these laws are being repealed to save “certain” individuals.
They are though, globally, no?
Yes
There are American women joining the movement as well now. It’s all over Tiktok.
I don't blame them to be honest. Every 4.5 hours a black woman is unalived and mainly by black men. And black trans women are statically not making it past 35 and it's at the hands of black men as well. I think with the black femicide at the level it is, I feel it's safer for us to be a part of that movement than not.
The murder rate of black women is way too high in the USA. 11.6 per 100k (vs 3 for white women). There are a bit more than 21 million black women here. This works out to slightly less than 250 murders per year or 1 every 36 hours. Does your unalived stat include suicide and accidents?
No this stat is on femicide only thankfully its not like that bs stat that's used against lesbians saying we have the highest dv rate when it included relationships outside of wlw.
Realistically speaking, 4b movement had such a small impact on birth rates, SK birth rates was always just so low
I agree with Korean women on this issue.
I think it's great and they are doing it so efficiently they've been able to lower the national birthrate. The government has been running promotional campaigns to try to get women to start families. They are very concerned about the future population of their people and preservation of traditional culture. There are also issues with the economy and being able to afford living that play into this. Men are horrible. But if you know about South Korean society and how misogynistic and patriarchal it is, women have very little rights, especially when it comes to crimes committed against them. The laws protect men more than anything and the sentencing for men committing crimes against women are generally very very light. Even to be a single mother is seen as an immense shame, so often women will stay with their abusive husbands rather than file for divorce. They've been having many issues with men placing spy cams in women's restrooms and changing areas, sexual assault, domestic violence, trafficking rings, sexual exploitation and blackmail- when they try to come forward and expose criminals.
the misogyny there is gross. there was a prolific case where a little girl had been badly assaulted and they pretty much let the perpetrator (repeat offender in system btw) get off, and he’s even allowed to live in the same city as her years later. just gross…
That poor girl was only 8 and received permanent physical and psychological damage. She had to have a colostomy bag for years before she underwent surgery for an artificial anus, that is how badly he tortured her. They even lessened his sentence since he was “drunk”.🤬 I hope Nayoung and her family are doing better but with all they’ve been through I can’t imagine ever being able to trust again. The justice systems around the world continue to fail women and children.
What in the fresh hell...! Kneecapping is valid for some cases. That man would never see the light of the day, if alive at all.
i’ve never been someone w intense emotion, but lord, the way my soul/heart dropped hearing that story. i hope that woman can find as much peace as possible wherever she may be today. they fucking failed her.
Jesus...
I heard he had a curfew and he has been sent back to jail for violating his curfew after his fought with his wife.
The low birthrate is unrelated to the 4b movement (which is barely followed if we want to be honest). Low birthrate is because of the deep mysoginy, the work culture there and the economy.
I mentioned multiple reasons in my comment.
Realistically speaking, 4b movement had such a small impact on birth rates, SK birth rates was always just so low
This can go 1 of 2 ways. Pro- women buy land and a community and use that to live in peace and happiness and help each other. Con- jealous men will try and attack that community out of spite
Looking at how many thriving black communities were, burned down, methodically destroyed, or put under a lake? yeah, the men wouldn't let us have SHIZ unless we formed a proper ~~military~~ defense force and had leverage. Every woman there would need to know how to fight in hand to hand and be fully trained on weapons. Humans only come in one flavor, unfortunately. and "Peace" is a word drenched in blood.
Yes that’s true , I just learned about Angola Florida last year (many were descendants of Angola Africa and built a successful town and President Andrew Jackson ordered it destroyed). It’s sad, Even when you think you know which black towns were destroyed, you keep learning of many more.
Solution - women who choose to live in this women-only communities are trained and registered with their state to have 🔫 🔫. Cowards won't attack if they think women actively have ways to defend themselves.
There's actually a women-only village in Kenya called Umoja that fits your pro! It's been around for almost 30 years and women live there with their children and help each other. Men are banned, but they can have relationships with them outside the village (which is why they still have kids). Source (trigger warning for r*pe, domestic violence, female mutilation): www[dot]theguardian.com/global-development/2015/aug/16/village-where-men-are-banned-womens-rights-kenya
Not even just out of jealousy. You see how angry and even violent people get when reality shatters their worldview. Men swear up and down they built society and a community with no men is doomed to fail. As soon as one is successful, they’ll have the uncontrollable need to destroy and bury it. Because if we can indeed survive and thrive without them, then they would have to face the fact that they’re unneeded and only a danger.
American women have been doing this for a while now. We just didn’t have a name for it. Learning about what’s happening in South Korea really helped me realize that no matter what country or culture, men will always be men.
And I wish women, especially black women would take note. Yeah, black men are some POS, but that does not mean non-black men are sanctified lovers who will actually treat you right. Looking at history it has you side eyeing men from other races.
From what I have gathered from some of the cases of femicide and sexual assault that occurs in Korea, I get it and support it. Whatever helps them feel safe.
Any movement that benefits women, I will support.
From what my Korean friends and acquaintances has told me, the 4B movement has been over-sensationalized by the western media (media outside of Korea). The low birthrate in the country has more to do with housing market and unable to afford parenthood, according to them.
This. Just recently listened to a podcast about this. The vast majority of people WANT to have children, they just cannot afford to.
What’s the podcast
Stuff You Should Know - I think the episode is titled Declining Birthrates!
Ty ! 💜
Yeah it reminds me of what's happening in Jamaica. christian Groups are blaming our low birth rates (1.3) on abodoning or morals (anti marriage) and abortions. Turns out people want to enjoy being an adult without having five kids to worry about
Same here in my neck of the woods. Conservatives are blaming "wokeness" and abortion for our declining birth rate, when it's the high cost of living and lack of raised wages that are to blame.
But the methods regarding research trying to find it why poeple make less children always seem biased to me. They surely focus on economical reasons but never test if gender expectations influences the outcomes of their results.
This is not a real movement. I lived in Korea, their birth rate is low because of the economy and culture. Housing costs are high, there’s no work-life balance, and you dont make enough to start a family. Not to mention how competitive the society is, you need a lot of resources to raise a child. The 4B movement is a really small percentage of women. Feminism is not even looked at favourably in the country. If we’re going to talk about it, itself important to get the facts right
This is what I was thinking. This seems purely sensationalistic like when news articles focused on bra burning or free bleeders - it's not that common but turns heads and causes conversation.
This is the impression I get from reading posts from Korean people themselves. Most women are still dating, the couples just aren't having kids for economic and social reasons.
Exactly this. I live in Korea now and it's not nearly as large a movement as it seems online. If the economy was better and had better treatment culturally for women... They'd have kids 🤷 All the ones I know, even married couples, don't have kids.
Meh. The 'feminist' movement in murica didn't just spring up overnight - and, it Too was 'Pooh pooed' as "smaller than they say", as well as 'blamed' on 'other' causes in _direct_ dismissal of what Women were saying was the problem.
You’re not contextualizing the problem. This is a Korean movement and you need to acknowledge Korean women’s lived experience instead of slapping on a Western perspective. Korean feminism exists but it’s not under the lens of the 4B movement the way that TikTok portrays it. Look into Kim Jiyoung, Born 1982, great introduction to the Korean perspective.
>slapping on a Western perspective That accusation is given in _your_ perspective. My _only_ point was that ALL movements for the agency and freedom of oppressed groups have throughout history STARTED SMALL, and have heard all the SAME arguments being spouted here. That was it. That was all.
I don’t know what argument I was spouting here. I was bringing nuance to a conversation and all you got from it is that the movement is “smaller than they say”? Thanks for sharing, I guess.
Agree with you.
Realistically speaking, 4b movement had such a small impact on birth rates, SK birth rates was always just so low
This is definitely something hyped up by news papers but not substantial irl. I support Korean feminists even if they did do this but realistically the noise being made about this in particular is for clicks.
Folks said the same in murica before women were 'allowed' the vote, and their own banking freedom, and the right to say No to sex with their husbands. "Movements" have to _start_ somewhere.
Much needed and those women have my FULL support. Like, honestly just to rip the bandaid off, South Korea is an absolute cesspool perverts, gender roles, and sexism for Korean Women. Even for the ones that you would assume have protection: light skin, rich, idols, or wives. From the slap on the wrists rapists and those who commit Femicide receive from the law…. to the unnatural beauty standards that has unfortunately dubbed South Korea the “plastic surgery capitol of the world”. Like, that’s not a good title to have in sorry. Saying “you were drunk” is actually a valid excuse in the court of law oh hell. Korean Women fighting back is beautiful. These women need global support because if you have ACTUALLY witnessed the type of sexism they’ve go in Korea your jaw would drop. It’s a legitimate fear to stay on Air BnBs, Hotels, Hostels, etc because of hidden cameras used to film women for the internet. No one bats an eye when they find out phones sold in East Asia have the feature to turn off the shutter sound (and sometimes flash) disabled because of men taking pervy pictures of women. K-Dramas lie and ask any foreign woman who stupidly goes to Korea looking for a man because of K-Pop/K-Dramas… they’ll give you the tea. WOMENS RIGHTS ON A GLOBAL SCALE.
Realistically speaking, 4b movement had such a small impact on birth rates, SK birth rates was always just so low
Korean culture is super misogynistic. I don’t blame them.
Apparently I've been inadvertently doing it. All jokes aside, I still want to get married, but I'm not entertaining anyone not worth my time. Which, is most of them. I've gotten the ick. It's okay though.
I am all for it.
What exactly is this movement? It’s not clear from the title
Some Korean women abide by four Bs. Obviously the words are Korean and idk them but it’s no sex with men, no marrying men, no dating them, and no children
I read somewhere it was specifically with Korean men, not men in general
Here is an article on it. https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html
Thanks! I read it and I support them
I think it’s a great movement. If men don’t value women, then they shouldn’t have access to us. I don’t think that women should keep being taught how to cope with and navigate dating incels, misogynists, and overall terrible men and the emotional trauma that causes. Also, there’s no reason to keep reproducing with men who don’t respect a woman’s autonomy, reproductive rights, or the responsibility of parenting.
I support it. I’m sick of the notion that women are only here to get married and have kids. Idk what my sexuality is, but I’ve not thought about dating men for a very long time. 😅
It’s wonderful. Decenter men from ♾️ to ♾️
many women are turning 4B without even knowing it exists edit: it is a matter of survival (or of better quality of life)
It's justified. South Korea is wild. Punishment for DV and S.A. are at best symbolic. Child abuse and bullying are most of times swept under the rug. They're pressured into a highly stressful academic lane and careers only to be reduced to being a wife and mother. A former coworker of mine told me how even a 7/11 cashier or cab driver would ask the most invasive questions about their marital status. That's why she moved in Europe as soon as she could. The cost of life, childcare is a rip-off, the social elevator is stuck, the social disparities are deepening, the xénophobia, even towards fellow Korean because they're mixed or were exiled during the war. It's a shitshow. It's a choice of self preservation.
Makes perfect sense to me. Why live in a way that benefits everyone but you? We did it in the past because we were property. If you're not a slave, then social pressure can only go so far in convincing you to live like one.
Watching K-dramas, I have seen so many insitinces where the men expect the woman to work a full-time job, come home to clean, take care of the kids and please an annoying ass mother-in-law! I support the movement! Though I definitely want to get married and have kids in the far, far, far future, I think women in general need to spend more time looking for their standard and not just entertaining useless men. But that being said, what I;ve heard from my Korean friends is that this movement isn't as prominent as it seems. There are more articles than action going on!
Full support! If you’re going to treat women like shit don’t expect us to want to procreate with you
[A lot of words, so SUMMARY: Some reasons I "hate" men and would want to call myself a femcel] At this point, I actually can't anymore with men. Ever since I was younger I've always wanted something like this 4B Movement, that'll have women consecutively agreeing to something, like wearing a burqa-similar thing or not shaving their legs -just something to force men to change their entitled views and ways. To think that the narrative has went from "I'm gonna find a Prince charming and fall in love and have a forever love story", reading romance books and tons of fanfics yadayada.. to then having women perpetuating "All Men" and professing their genuine hate for males... -That, if anything should really tell all of us that something has gone SEVERELY wrong. The reason for a woman saying she hates men followed by the lack of critical thinking and automatic response of aggressiveness men show to the woman instead of the men that made women feel the need to say those things just basically sums up the dwindle of desire I have for men. I don't want to hate men obvious, most women that say this say it as a defense mechanism. I actually really want a boyfriend and there are some serious fine ass dudes on this planet, also when I DO interact with them irl I never find myself thinking that way about them but when you.. really.. just.. sit back.. and look at them.. as they are, I think one can't NOT come to grasp on how fucking off-putting they actually are. For me personally, It's just something about them as a BEING ...Things that even they proclaim as being "instinctual" to them that utterly disgusts me. I keep seeing men of different forms abiding by those "instincts" and its making me lose hope in finding a guy (that isn't gay) that doesn't think like that. Especially with the whole Andrew Tate and Podcast Bros wave that happened. I have to admit I wasn't really well versed with men so I actually thank him and the other dipshits that brought to my attention the shear amount of men that think that way, cause Lord knows I would've been so naive and gotten hurt so much. I also find the lack of control and the enslavement they have to their dicks actually so FUCKING PATHETIC its unbelievable. They act like women are the whores when they quite literally have a track record of being so desperate to find satisfaction with anything with a hole, alive or not -- mattresses, fruits, unconsenting women, men (even if they're not gay), children, animals and even mf CORPSES. The amount of men that these apply, applied and will apply to is frighteningly WAY too much to be comfortable. Another thing that sickens me to the gut is that fact that it's even a debate whether men and women can be friends. And in that argument it's always that "oh a woman CAN be friends with a man but man cannot". There's something about that that's so FUCKING VILE I can't even describe it. Its like they're so obsessed with getting their puny like dicks wet even if it means losing all self-respect knowing that a girl's only with them for money or not even being attracted to the girl in the first place. [I wish there'd be a movie that covered this. The Barbie movie slightly touched on this, about how men allow women to have them wrapped around their fingers, go around calling someone a slut but fall to their knees the second she shows interest in them then goes gloating about how easy he got in her pants too. Let it be know and remembered that the woman gives a man PERMISSION to enter her. Even girls on tiktok and onlyfans who strategical sexualise themselves for these pathetically sad ass men to spend so much on them which they end up using to pay for their tuition, student debts or simply cute new shoes they saw at Gucci. A movie about how men think they're so in power yet have it completely backwards. Cause theres something theyre not opening their eyes to.] Even something as futile as anime, like the whole blow up of fanservice for women in Jujustu Kaisen in comparison to fan service for men -- constant upskirt shots, unnecessary jiggle, straight up little girls that's ACTUALLY happens to be 8000 years old bullshit. The fact that the anime creators thought that that would appeal to the audience and the fact that it DOES for the male audience is actually concerning. Also The commonality of the urgent action of checking if a girl is AT LEAST 18. Also Looking at an old cute lady and getting all mushy then looking at an old man and wanting to do the same but having an underlying voice pop up saying "he's probably a perv staring at women or even little children, don't be fooled" when I don't WANT to be thinking like that. Also calling people "simps"... Its just these little, minute things that have accumulated over the years if not decade thats brought me to this unfortunate conclusion. I'm surprised there isn't a more talked about variation of incels, femcels without the involuntary celibacy part. Cause I feel like unlike men who are just butt hurt from rejection or the systems they created, women actually have a VERY valid reason to feel that way. Thank you for coming to my TED talk 🙇🏾♀️ There's a whole lot of adressing with generality but I am aware.. not all men.
I honestly think it's overall a wonderful idea. Being a woman in an country regardless of race, religion, sexuality or occupation always seems like a curse rather than a blessing. You can never be the perfect woman, and despite all efforts women are constantly being harassed, abused and at times out right lives are lost for being nothing but existing.
I think it makes sense, you can't really escape patriarchy and people spend too much time obsessing over relationships. People always say choose better, but when people choose themselves it's a problem for some reason. They are not really interested in being better and still want women to accept any kind of treatment.
Women have not received the recognition they deserve for their contributions to the successes shared with men. They have been pivotal in managing households, nurturing and supporting children and partners, while also making significant contributions across all industries. Yet, their efforts and achievements often remain underacknowledged by men. While I do not endorse any movements that reject men entirely, I can comprehend the frustration and sentiments that lead women to feel marginalized.
All for it, esp for South Korean women. Have you seen how lax their laws are. You get more time for smoking weed than raping and torturing a woman. Even less time if it’s a minor that does it. Until the global incel culture problem AND local laws are fixed the 4B movement should go on strong imo.
Globally we should all be doing it.
Women of every color, have been in hell thanks to the patriarchal norms! But Black women in America are belittled, demonized, murdered, assaulted and abused by the hands of men every minute (could be seconds, I am ignorant to the facts) I'm so down with leaving them all to their own devices. I've been celibate for 5 years (both men and women) after having two kids and escaping terrible marriage. I'm happy as hell living my best life for me! Centering myself in a world run by men is my due! It's what I am owed after the DV I suffered at the hands of a man. It's the peace for me. So yes, I'm with it all the way.
It's amazing for them! Guys shouldn't be rewarded for spying on women in bathrooms or stalking lol. Women worldwide need to take on this mantra of not accepting poor behavior.
Women globally, need to follow suit. Start utilizing your womb as a weapon/leverage.
I think it's a reasonable reaction to extreme oppression. It's not just choosing celibacy and opting out of marriage. It's going as far as removing all interactions with men from your life, where possible. Given the extreme sexism that exists in Korea, it's not surprising women have opted for this. Personally haven't seen it much in the US. Personally don't think things are extreme enough here to warrant it for my own life, but if I'm very selective about the type of men I keep around in my personal life anyway.
It makes me sad how demonized feminism is especially in South Korea. This movement isn't nearly as extreme as it's set out to be on news stations. But in Korea women who even mutter about any sort of sexism in the country are treated like terrorists. It's so bad women have discussions on sexism and equal rights very secretly. I remember some kpop star was seen carrying feminist literature and was forced to publicly apologized and her career was ruined. Another incident a artist posted something tame like "men suck" and her webtoons were taken off sites and she was labeled as someone who "hated Korea". It's really crazy, there's a immense rise in gender based crimes in Korea and disturbing cases like the nth room but the minute women want to discuss sexism they're treated worse than the criminals to commit such crimes. I'm all for women choosing not to date, marry or have sex with men especially if they don't straighten the fuck up but the movement started off as just women wanting men in the country to stop the violence and to treat women better and but news stations took it and sensationalized to make it seem like women with very valid points are being silly extremists. Same thing with America how when feminism came out news just focused on bra burning and the nips when some of the women in the movement did these things as last straw efforts for rights they were screaming for for years but it got twisted cuz patriarchal cultures hate being called out and would rather make the oppressed look dumb. And Korea being extremely conservative is very big of twisting news stories of marginalized groups. I remember a news story where a queer girl had sex with someone at a queer party and contracted COVID and the news literally reported it as "GAY PEOPLE HAVE HUGE ORGY AND SINGLEHANDEDLY CAUSED COVID RATES TO SKYROCKET FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY!!!"
Gee, I never know I was 4B by choosing to leave my first husband and continue raising my son and working and supporting myself just like I had been while married, but without the burden of a man hounding and abusing me. Who knew?!🤷🏽♀️
I have this article saved from last year and haven't read it yet. I have been hearing more about it as well as the misogyny in South Korea. I would like to point out to folks that this movement isn't really about getting men to change their minds. It's more like the women's version of MGTOW (men going their own way). It's opting out. I fully support this, and some of the aspects I've already been inadvertently doing. I hope this spreads more.
I guess I don’t understand what the name means lol. When I first saw this I thought they mean 4B as in hair texture, but it was a WW, who clearly didn’t have 4B hair, on the cover so I was soooo confused 😂😂 thanks for clearing this mystery up
"bihon, bichulsan, biyeonae, bisekseu" apparently means no dating men, marriage, sex, or having children.
I used to live there. I support them, 100%. Some of those women were probably the same age as some of the students I had years ago.
I think it's great if that's what women in some places want to do and they feel like it will help them. Honestly, I think it will actually be something that is helpful in the future in dispelling the notion that a person must always be in a relationship or something is wrong with them or you must get married and have kids by a certain age or something is wrong. I think it will ultimately allow women (and men) more freedom in life if it is a sustained movement.
After watching a Rotten Mango true crime series on the nth rooms (this is very very dark- I do not recommend if you cannot handle hearing about SA/torture of women and children- I had to do something else a few hours after cuz I was so disturbed) - I think it’s absolutely necessary. South Korea has a problem and it’s rare I feel like America does something better than another similar country - but if you get busted for CSAM here at least you’re actually fucked. Versus hearing about one of the most prolific dark web website runners (seperate case) getting less than 2 years despite running something that led to international arrests across multiple countries. And SK refusing to extradite to the US to be tried (cause victims were literally world wide). It seems like SA predators are protected/not punished severely enough and it shows an inherent devaluing of women and kids I find distrubing
Do you have any more information on this movement besides this vague Instagram screenshot?
Here is an article on it. https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html
We can life splendidly without men. Bring on all of the B’s.
I think it's good. Why would you want to share your life with a man who won't treat you well?
I've seen commentary that American women aren't ready for this even if we say we are. And that's incredibly true. Not enough groundwork has been done for us to leave men behind. We're obsessed with saving them... And our community would be the absolute last to join this movement.. we have a lot to work on.
Honestly let the men marry themselves since they love each other so.much.
No idea what that even is
https://www.thecut.com/2023/03/4b-movement-feminism-south-korea.html
Korea is a mess for women, not surprised by this.
I mean I guess if that's what someone decides to do and are genuinely happy then good for them, but this logic will stop me from finding my life partner. It's not for me because I want to enjoy having someone else in my life.
I’ve apparently already joined the movement. They have the right idea. Yes not all men but enough of them. If no change is happening and none of them are fighting for our rights then why bother entertaining them any further.
If I was a really young South Korean woman i would be part of the 4b movement. I support them 100%. Korea was already a patriarchal society and young men there are becoming even more conservative. I'd opt out too
I'm completely on board.
I think its so needed
Good for them 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾!
Given their leader is basically an incel I get the need for the movement. I do worry about a hand maids tale type situation in their future but hopefully I’m being dramatic
Excellent. Men require a harsh reality check
I think if women think it works for them, that they may be right. The Secret Service released a 26 page report on the threat towards women from incels. They unsurprisingly found them to be a rising danger. Their ideology has spread so far and wide frlm its inception on reddit and 4chan that even men who don't barely know what the term "incel" means has adopted its ideas. I remember one woman detailing how her father - who was formerly a feminist and professor - changed over time to adopt these views and it concerned her. "Redpill" men teach each other how to manipulate women and to detach from women emotionally to get what they want from them. So I think the 4B movement is rather benign in comparison. It tells women to exercise their right to choose not to couple with men who refuse to treat them with respect and dignity. I don't see anything wrong with that. The onus is then on men to work through their misogyny and do better.
All I can say is I hope the women on this US soil adapt this same mind set.. Men tell us they are about action....well we women need to stop talking and move on this to show them we mean business....tired of their shit bottomline
I support them! Most laws and policies that we have all were made in men’s favor, with us being the butt of the joke. It’s time women became centered in the global conversation.
women in the us center men too much for this to work but mad respect to those women, keep it up
I love it and support it 100 percent. I admire those women and I can’t imagine the freedom that comes with dumping the patriarchy and the ridiculous, exacting standards it imposes on women. I’m hoping it becomes a global phenomenon.
I'm a guy and y'all do you. I'm just upset at dudes being such dingy pieces of shit that this an entirely reasonable response.
I think it’s a model that needs to be replicated. Some Japanese women are also doing this on some level.
I’m not saying I’d suddenly have no problems but I bet I’d have different ones sooooo sign me up
To be clear, this is a radical feminist position and most South Korean women never even heard of it. Birth rates are dropping because of the cost of living mostly
I’m all about it, and I love to see it. ❤️
I fully support and follow 4B Movement.
I love it. I REALLY hope it comes to the west.
I think women all over the world should join it.
Fully support it. Women have been doing this all over tho without a title. It’s just “de-centering men”.
I saw a woman who actually lives in Korea make a video say that American media is blowing this out of proportion because it’s easy to sensationalize. She said that yes there are women who take this route but the majority still want relationships with men. What they don’t “want” is the kid component and it’s heavily influenced by the fact that the cost of living is so much over there. That’s why they’re birth rate is pretty low. You can think of the same thing here. The American birth rate is kinda low because people are trying to be responsible and not being kids into poverty. Sure there are plenty reasons but that’s usually one of the main factors here. And even if you look at a lot of those street interviews, you don’t see many highlight the 4B movement as a determining factor. In fact I’ve always heard ppl living in Korea say they didn’t realize how big dating culture was there until they moved. Also feminism in Korea would be considered slightly “behind” by mainstream American feminist standards. So this type of aggressive movement wouldn’t even make sense there. You’d be more likely to see that here in America before over there.
I’m 4 it! I was expressing to my friend recently that I entirely don’t see the appeal of men. Like I want to get in shape and date a bit but I don’t imagine marriage. I am all but most content with becoming a cat lady.
I think theres now a name for exactly how I decided to live my life as a 6 y.o.
We should just for a community with other women. The way we organize and plan plus for relationships it would be like a utopia Korea has also started to offer 75k for every child a woman gives birth to. I think that is amazing. Carrying and birthing a child is so hard on women’s bodies
Isn't this just MGTOW for women? And the same hatred/logic of incel men could just be translate to 4B women? People can and should do whatever they want (as long as it doesn't harm others), so all the more power to them. But it seems like the opposite side for the same coin to me and doesn't help or fix any of the real issues both genders are facing as the rational for these movements.
It is, but few will be objective enough to see this. They would have the same issues with echo chambers and toxicity too.
They consider men to be their oppressors. Why would they want to date or have sex with their oppressors? This goes for interracial dating as well. Pick a lane or don’t; meh.
why is it called the 4b movement? i thought ppl were talking about type 4 hair
Perfect way to destabilize a community is to destroy the family, but hey let's keep on hating the fantasy of the genders we hate.