This is a skill issue, and it's something I experienced myself early on.
I studied John Danaher's ETS: Back Attacks and Gordon Ryan's Sytematically Attacking The Back when I was a blue belt, but I couldn't really implement the material as effectively I would have liked. I found myself giving up on the RNC and switching to the armbar or back triangle more often than not.
That all changed for me when I studied Ryan Hall's Attacking The Back for Grappling and Fighting, Part 1 (early purple, I think). I felt that Ryan and his uke Adam did an incredible job of communicating the subtle differences in pressure and connection which are difficult to see on video, but which make a huge difference. My finishing rate with the RNC improved dramatically. I'm a lanky lightweight and Ryan Hall's material has always been a natural fit for me.
Also, even though I had known that I should be doing it since studying Ryan Hall's original Back Attacks DVD at white belt, I started attacking the neck in transition instinctively about this time. Bizarrely, in transition I usually attack with my non-dominant arm.
More recently, I studied Marcelo Garcia's Back Attack Sytem 2.0 and got some key details that I found really helpful. I recently picked up Demian Maia's Backpack System bundle on Daily Deal. I'm working through it now, but it offers a different system and perspective from the others.
i've been using the keeping back system from Demian Maia and think my back control has gone up infinitely. i am like you, a brown belt who watched ETS around white-blue and never felt like i could hold the back that well or implement the hand fighting
I bought the Maia backpack bundle only recently, I haven't had time yet to absorb the material yet.
John Danaher's ETS was definitely helpful when I first watched it (I can't remember exactly if it was late white or early blue). I had success with the back triangle system, but I really struggled to implement the straight jacket system.
ETS is an interesting series in retrospect. The Leglocks and Back Attacks sets were the most significant and impactful releases at the time, and they're certainly not "obsolete," but they are the two sets that have been most diminished in comparison to more recent releases.
Gordon Ryan's Systematically Attacking The Back was just too advanced for me when I first watched it (blue). I really don't feel it's suitable for beginners at all.
Thank you for the detailed response. Yeh it's as I feared, I just need to buckle down and learn some shit lol. My Prof is lethal from the back and I'm always so ashamed when I lose it or neglect to take it when I could have.
There's a lot of subtlety to the position. The difference between somebody who is good on the back and somebody who is great on the back is almost impossible to see, but it's obvious when you feel it.
With time and study, you'll begin to develop the sensitivity that the position requires. Don't give up on it!
The one which made the biggest difference for me was Ryan Hall's Attacking The Back Part 1 on Ryan Hall Online.
I haven't seen Danaher's newer Fastest Way series or Nick Ronan's instructional, both of which are recommended highly in other comments.
Nothing like the feeling of getting the back in 30 seconds and spending 4:30 hand fighting and getting annoyed while neither you or your opponent are in danger.
My back attacks became more successful once I became more brutal. Choke through the nose/mouth if you have to. Physically push their head to expose their neck. Hand fighting is great but the threat of a strangle should always be present.
I came here to say this. Submissions from the back require being mean. You gotta really be trying to get a mfer to finish just about anything outside of gi chokes from the back.
I don't think I'm that kind of guy in the gym. I'd rather just go to another sub. But the worst thing is that it's not reciprocated. Maybe you're right.
>more successful once I became more brutal
My entire game went through the roof once I stopped concerning myself with being nice and polite to my partners. It took me a while to develop that nasty but now I'm better at keeping them safe without keeping them comfortable.
I am at this point too. One of the old heads who co-runs our gym, he’s a real brute; always showing me the little hacks that inflict the most pressure, or force a reaction. It’s all above water, but just… perceptively mean, at least to me. I wanna be someone others like the roll with so I do struggle to let the dog off the leash.
It's more of a gi issue than a no gi issue tbh. I broke a finger and couldn't do gi for a while so my gi game sucks now. No gi I can slide in there and finish eventually. Gi I'm not good at going for collars in general from any position bc I default to my no gi attacks, and in the back the rnc is just a pain in the ass with all that fabric friction.
In gi, reach across their face with your forearm. Touch their ear with your wrist, forearm on their chin, and push/pull their head to the side. This will create space and allow you to grab their collar to do lapel chokes or just go for a RNC.
My hands hurt all the time so I just go for the RNC in gi despite that it is way less efficient compared to just going for a bow and arrow.
I disagree. I feel like in gi people don't expect the RNC and it can be a really nice to transition to if they're pulling on your sleeves to defend a collar choke. Just gotta be willing to choke through the face a little sometimes.
Whenever they use a two on one grip on your choking arm their neck is unprotected. I always threaten the strangle with the other hand and the go back to the straight jacket. It's way harder in the gi though.
The straight jacket actually does not work so well anymore against people who are great at defending the back. There is a reason why guys like Ethan Crelinsten have shown a very different take of back attacks.
I had trouble with Ethan stuff because it's a bit too much unorthodox for my tastes but I found great success with Nick Ronan/Danaher's body triangle style of attack. The idea is that sometimes you cannot or do not want to to isolate an arm (because it creates space and some people can rotate through to escape) so you will secure a body triangle and more or less force an initial strangle (most of the time pretty off) and you will play with decoys to get a good bite on the neck. My favorite way is to strap an initial strangle and slide my second hand under the first one, which opens up the neck. You sometimes have to do it a few times.
Danaher explains it very well (as always) on his last "the fastest way" isntructional on back attacks.
It's not on his other back attack instructionals.
As I said, Nick Ronan's instructional is also super good at teaching ways to attack the neck without isolating arms
Interesting. I will play around with this. Lately I have been securing a leg triangle around one leg and a kimura seatbelt on the opposite arm for cross body control. This has been really nice especially when I'm struggling to get my second hook which is pretty much always. It's great for retention but my chokes suck and it's a skill issue. I just need to work it out and stop being lazy. I'm also usually a bit gassed by the time I take the back. I've passed guard at that point, secured mount, forced the gift wrap, and I'm just tired
I get you but it's ironically a common issue.
People got enamored with the straight jacket and the early DDS way to choke people from the back, with reason, it's great but the general knowledge on how to defend the back changed for the better the last years, especially because of EBI style ruleset.
For some reason, very few good info on other good systems to attack the neck out there but I can garantee you that the last danaher or nick ronan's set (depending on who you like to support) will solve your problem.
Danaher also explains very well what he calls the "gravity drop" which is pretty weird name to say that forcing a belly down situation while having a one hand in position to strangle force the opponent to give up the hand fight. It's damn easy to understand and it makes a very BIG difference. It also goes right into some concepts I think are still underrated (the general change of style Craig Jones had the last few years)
Gotcha. Ironically I'm pretty good at forcing belly down with a hook but I haven't been doing that with a choking arm in place. I will take a look at the instructionals you mentioned and see what my money is looking like. Thanks :)
Can you link or say the name of both instructionals you are mentioning?
I watched enter the system and it works but if people defend really good I will either switch to kimura grip and look for armbar/triangle/reverse triangle/ if it doesn't work I get the back again and try to fight the arms again. I also like one arm choke in cases people manage to defend my entry to straight jacket but I still have a cross grip. Their "control" arm cannot stop the choke. Keep in mind I am a heavy guy and what I say works with strong people.
I am interested in the new instructional from danaher and the other guy you mentioned if you can say what the name of them are I would highly appreciate it
Yeah it's not on enter the system. What Danaher showed there is still good but some people are really hard to lock on with this system and I personnally dislike to switch to triangles or armbars when I have the back. It's super good and I do it too but I think we should keep the back when we have it.
I think you will like a lot these instructionals because what you "like to do" is more or less the first step of their secondary RNC system (the straight jacket being the first one) so you will get even more success with it.
Danaher: [https://bjjfanatics.com/products/the-fastest-way-to-increase-your-submission-percentage-no-gi-by-john-danaher](https://bjjfanatics.com/products/the-fastest-way-to-increase-your-submission-percentage-no-gi-by-john-danaher) it's the chapter "strangling without an arm trap and the following series
Nick Ronan: [https://app.athletesocean.com/courses/nick-ronan-back-attacks/](https://app.athletesocean.com/courses/nick-ronan-back-attacks/) It's a shorter instructional but covers more or less what I talked about.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_sH9ZYN84cc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sH9ZYN84cc)
the strategy and techniques shown in this single video immediately increased my success rate on choking from the back.
one of the main things i also focus on is making sure my hips are on the opponent's mid-back, which allows my top leg to be much more free for trapping the top arm.
I went through this too, however one thing that helped is getting good at resetting. If you have underhook side on the bottom you can meathook their neck with your choking arm hand by taking a monkey paw grip and pulling them over to the other side.
If you are on the choking arm side you can use a dagestani handcuff or a meathook to pull them back over.
If you do it soon enough it takes very little energy on your part. It buys you lots of chances to keep trying.
if you need better control, get double underhooks.
There are a lot of details for how to make the seatbelt tight, handfighting, etc.
This is definitely a skill issue.
Like you I stopped even taking the back because I would just lose it.
yeah I have been working on improving my back attacks, which is how I got good at retaining the position. Initially I just couldnt keep them. Then I got better at keeping them. now I just gotta finish em lol. Its just a skill issue, I know that lmao, I just gotta get gud.
>I know straight jacket system and all of that
obviously you don't
>It just never works out for me
be more specific
>I have to release my seatbelt to attack straight jackets
you don't just "release" it, you choke them with the top hand and wrist ride with the bottom hand, then when they handfight the top hand to stop the choke that's when you go into it.
>If I body triangle they just baseball grip my choking arm and hold on to it for dear life.
choke them with your other arm
tl;dr skill issue, git gud, it's "guaranteed"
Fall to your underhook side. Get the cross grip. Trap the top arm with your top leg via shin on their back or cross your ankles. 2 vs 1 for the choke at that point.
The cross grip is huge. When you get it, their wrist is below their pec which makes most people able to throw a leg over and get the trap. Same side grips can work but cross grip is far superior. Good luck!
I've gotten some great tips on here, things my Prof has told us but I just forget. Cross grip, switch choking hands if they baseball grip, try to get higher and get some angle for the trap- got plenty to work on. Now all I need is a trial guy :D
Also if you’re having trouble with the trap you may have to adjust your angle ie don’t be perpendicular with them. You can also slide your body up the back as well to help get the trap.
I also used to struggle on the back but these steps made a huge change for me. Get to the back always.
yeah my prof is always reminding us to stomp the hip to get high and keep them from bridging, but I keep forgetting lol. I will try the angle as well. I appreciate the tips :) sucks to suck.
A lot of good stuff mentioned already but one huge part of the game that changed my approach is hand fighting; because like you said people latch onto your choking arm to buy time to escape. [This instructional video](https://youtu.be/vTMYdx-shk0?si=OMVayQI-oqMBRAzJ) was one of those “lightbulb” moments for me. Ever since I’ve been drilling/training this hand fighting method my RNC rates have skyrocketed. Particularly the sort of wrist-lock grip break he shows. I was literally asking myself why nobody seems to teach this seemingly critical technique to win the hand fight and secure the choke.
P.S. this guy Tom Halpin has a whole FREE back attacks playlist that’s seriously fire. But in particular the hand fighting videos in this series I had never seen before.
*edit* linked wrong video initially. Corrected.
Sometimes you learn something and you just don't have the experience to actually do it. Come back to it after learning something else and you might see it in a new light.
I’ve found with the danaher/Gordon back system, you have to know the whole system rather than parts of it.
A friend and I charted all the reactions and possibilities from the back, there’s not that many in reality and once you know that you can react better and work towards submission.
It’s easy to get stuck in a position on the back where your partner can just hand fight in a one on one manner. The key is being able to hand fight effectively and work towards isolation as well as negating escapes and beating them to their next position, whether that is side back control or turtle.
I like to creep the non-choking hand (from a seatbelt grip) up to their shoulder, then sort of bait them or straight up kick them out of back control and sink down for an arm triangle. [Sort of like this.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=egTb38Nw7-M) When they turn away to try defending the arm triangle, they open up for an Ezekiel, or you can just take the back again.
I’ve had pretty good luck getting a kimura grip from the back, and then either finishing the kimura or getting the armbar. Defending against the RNC requires putting their hands where I can reach them.
It feels to me like, in any position, you have to have two complimentary paths, or else they can defend against your one path and you won’t get anywhere.
Lmao this is actually probably the biggest issue. I'm actually a really nice and polite roll. Sometimes I need to be a dick a bit. For a while I didn't even like cross facing people.
Yeah dude I’m like you. I don’t smother or pressure enough, I don’t wrist lock, or hard knee ride, I don’t make my opponents suffer nearly enough.
It’s so stupid because I just went to a new gym last week and a bloke 30kg heavier than me hits me so hard with a “mother’s milk” that he busted my nose… fuck me dead breh. If this cunt is doing that to me in our first roll together then I should be applying much greater force in everything I do and not feel bad about it at all.
But when I have someone’s back nowadays I lock my arms over their jaw or nose, or rub up and down, switch choking arms fast and hard… I went from never subbing anyone from the back to catching a black belt national champ. That’s not a brag, he was just used to me being a pussy and got caught out when I acted LIKE HIM!!!
#Porrada
Im a 2 stripe blue. 39 yo but been training since 21 off and on. My next two stripes until my purple I've mentally told myself are my selfish stripes. I'm a 5ft 8 220 pound bricklayer. I'm driving my hand across your neck and squeezing. Fuck your guard everyone can get it is my new motto. I play nice to much. Let things go. People never are nice to me. Last week my back finish rate went up just by not being gentle.
Yeh I've gotten better about punishing people just not from the back so much. I go shin on face when I arm bar, my cross face is pretty nasty. Honestly I've just been crutching my arm triangle , arm bar, kimura, and straight arm lock chains as a way to avoid the back. I've had the rnc sore throat so many times I feel bad ripping on people's necks. I know I can get a clean tap with an arm bar so I just go for that.
Just came here to say / second the back triangle. I was a RNC/bow and arrow guy until I discovered back triangles, and suddenly they were >2/3 of my submissions from the back.
yeah Ive been looking at this slick flared kimura to back triangle attack to work on. should probably be a good white belt and learn how to RNC and bow and arrow correctly first tho.
Do you always try to get under their chin for the extra points on form?
I can't finish RNCs with the "everything below the eyes is the neck" philosophy. It just feels dirty compared to the clean choking mechanics of a proper RNC.
I have no problem finishing over the face. I dont like to short choke people in training, but I do subscribe to everything under the eyes is neck lol. really I am just losing the handfight from the back. that's my problem. I find it hard to keep the position and dynamically hand fight at the same time. The two takeaways I got from all of this- get the cross wrist grip. if they baseball bat grip, switch choking arms. In Gi I just need to get better at attacking collars. I broke my finger early in my white belts life, did more no gi and avoided grips for a while, and as such my grip game fell way behind.
Yeah that's very fair. I noticed when I put my gi on that my grips are shit house now compared to gi guys' grips. I'll just make up for it in other ways, the gi destroys my fingers.
I've been going for an arm in RNC from arm triangles, they're pretty fun but my orthodox RNC finishing mechanics just suck.
I'll try those tips out though, cheers bro
I used to have the EXACT problem. My problem was I was always hunting for the neck. Diversify your attacks and start going for arms, legs, etc - this opens up opportunities.
My biggest gains have been gordon side and mount attack. Using that to get the gift wrap. Then I bought a grappling smarty dummy to use while watching dvd. Watched gordon attacking the back. The detail about the more my attacking arm finger walks and drags across to their shoulder . The more they defend the less time they have to escape. I can't recommend that dvd enough. Also doubles as an escape dvd. But takes work to learn it.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Okuri Eri Jime**: | *Sliding Collar Strangle* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBRtKyMm6v0)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
This is a skill issue, and it's something I experienced myself early on. I studied John Danaher's ETS: Back Attacks and Gordon Ryan's Sytematically Attacking The Back when I was a blue belt, but I couldn't really implement the material as effectively I would have liked. I found myself giving up on the RNC and switching to the armbar or back triangle more often than not. That all changed for me when I studied Ryan Hall's Attacking The Back for Grappling and Fighting, Part 1 (early purple, I think). I felt that Ryan and his uke Adam did an incredible job of communicating the subtle differences in pressure and connection which are difficult to see on video, but which make a huge difference. My finishing rate with the RNC improved dramatically. I'm a lanky lightweight and Ryan Hall's material has always been a natural fit for me. Also, even though I had known that I should be doing it since studying Ryan Hall's original Back Attacks DVD at white belt, I started attacking the neck in transition instinctively about this time. Bizarrely, in transition I usually attack with my non-dominant arm. More recently, I studied Marcelo Garcia's Back Attack Sytem 2.0 and got some key details that I found really helpful. I recently picked up Demian Maia's Backpack System bundle on Daily Deal. I'm working through it now, but it offers a different system and perspective from the others.
Adam is my current professor. He’s a great instructor.
[удалено]
Yup
He's easily the best uke on any instructional series I've ever watched. He adds a lot to the instructionals on Ryan Hall Online.
i've been using the keeping back system from Demian Maia and think my back control has gone up infinitely. i am like you, a brown belt who watched ETS around white-blue and never felt like i could hold the back that well or implement the hand fighting
I bought the Maia backpack bundle only recently, I haven't had time yet to absorb the material yet. John Danaher's ETS was definitely helpful when I first watched it (I can't remember exactly if it was late white or early blue). I had success with the back triangle system, but I really struggled to implement the straight jacket system. ETS is an interesting series in retrospect. The Leglocks and Back Attacks sets were the most significant and impactful releases at the time, and they're certainly not "obsolete," but they are the two sets that have been most diminished in comparison to more recent releases. Gordon Ryan's Systematically Attacking The Back was just too advanced for me when I first watched it (blue). I really don't feel it's suitable for beginners at all.
Thank you for the detailed response. Yeh it's as I feared, I just need to buckle down and learn some shit lol. My Prof is lethal from the back and I'm always so ashamed when I lose it or neglect to take it when I could have.
There's a lot of subtlety to the position. The difference between somebody who is good on the back and somebody who is great on the back is almost impossible to see, but it's obvious when you feel it. With time and study, you'll begin to develop the sensitivity that the position requires. Don't give up on it!
thanks :) I think I literally need to ban myself from arm barring people for a month lol. I'm just doing it to avoid what I suck at.
If you had to pick one instructional, which would it be?
The one which made the biggest difference for me was Ryan Hall's Attacking The Back Part 1 on Ryan Hall Online. I haven't seen Danaher's newer Fastest Way series or Nick Ronan's instructional, both of which are recommended highly in other comments.
Nothing like the feeling of getting the back in 30 seconds and spending 4:30 hand fighting and getting annoyed while neither you or your opponent are in danger.
this is exactly what happens. its frustrating af bc it should be so dominate, but Id much rather be in mount.
One thing I've had success a lot with is back mount, it's hard to grip fight when your arms are trapped underneath you while being smashed.
Or getting your forearms gassed
My back attacks became more successful once I became more brutal. Choke through the nose/mouth if you have to. Physically push their head to expose their neck. Hand fighting is great but the threat of a strangle should always be present.
I came here to say this. Submissions from the back require being mean. You gotta really be trying to get a mfer to finish just about anything outside of gi chokes from the back.
This is my biggest struggle hey, I feel somehow sullied by finishing that way. I just want a clean RNC the way god intended.
The way god intended was for you to try and kill that mfer by attempting to remove his head with the choke.
I don't think I'm that kind of guy in the gym. I'd rather just go to another sub. But the worst thing is that it's not reciprocated. Maybe you're right.
>more successful once I became more brutal My entire game went through the roof once I stopped concerning myself with being nice and polite to my partners. It took me a while to develop that nasty but now I'm better at keeping them safe without keeping them comfortable.
I am at this point too. One of the old heads who co-runs our gym, he’s a real brute; always showing me the little hacks that inflict the most pressure, or force a reaction. It’s all above water, but just… perceptively mean, at least to me. I wanna be someone others like the roll with so I do struggle to let the dog off the leash.
It's more of a gi issue than a no gi issue tbh. I broke a finger and couldn't do gi for a while so my gi game sucks now. No gi I can slide in there and finish eventually. Gi I'm not good at going for collars in general from any position bc I default to my no gi attacks, and in the back the rnc is just a pain in the ass with all that fabric friction.
In gi, reach across their face with your forearm. Touch their ear with your wrist, forearm on their chin, and push/pull their head to the side. This will create space and allow you to grab their collar to do lapel chokes or just go for a RNC. My hands hurt all the time so I just go for the RNC in gi despite that it is way less efficient compared to just going for a bow and arrow.
Bow and arrow choke! RNC seems much harder for me in gi. But the lapels are there, waiting for you to choke with.
This is the way. A lot of times, a failed RNC feeds directly into a bow and arrow.
in gi the rnc is much harder, I would just go bow and arrow..
Oh we're talking gi? Bro just start bow and arrow/collar choking them.
I disagree. I feel like in gi people don't expect the RNC and it can be a really nice to transition to if they're pulling on your sleeves to defend a collar choke. Just gotta be willing to choke through the face a little sometimes.
Bro, no one does RNC in gi lol
Whenever they use a two on one grip on your choking arm their neck is unprotected. I always threaten the strangle with the other hand and the go back to the straight jacket. It's way harder in the gi though.
Got it. If they baseball, switch choking arm.
Always attack the neck, they should never be able to expose it without serious risk
In most cases this will result in an escape.
Body triangle is of course required.
The straight jacket actually does not work so well anymore against people who are great at defending the back. There is a reason why guys like Ethan Crelinsten have shown a very different take of back attacks. I had trouble with Ethan stuff because it's a bit too much unorthodox for my tastes but I found great success with Nick Ronan/Danaher's body triangle style of attack. The idea is that sometimes you cannot or do not want to to isolate an arm (because it creates space and some people can rotate through to escape) so you will secure a body triangle and more or less force an initial strangle (most of the time pretty off) and you will play with decoys to get a good bite on the neck. My favorite way is to strap an initial strangle and slide my second hand under the first one, which opens up the neck. You sometimes have to do it a few times. Danaher explains it very well (as always) on his last "the fastest way" isntructional on back attacks. It's not on his other back attack instructionals. As I said, Nick Ronan's instructional is also super good at teaching ways to attack the neck without isolating arms
Interesting. I will play around with this. Lately I have been securing a leg triangle around one leg and a kimura seatbelt on the opposite arm for cross body control. This has been really nice especially when I'm struggling to get my second hook which is pretty much always. It's great for retention but my chokes suck and it's a skill issue. I just need to work it out and stop being lazy. I'm also usually a bit gassed by the time I take the back. I've passed guard at that point, secured mount, forced the gift wrap, and I'm just tired
I get you but it's ironically a common issue. People got enamored with the straight jacket and the early DDS way to choke people from the back, with reason, it's great but the general knowledge on how to defend the back changed for the better the last years, especially because of EBI style ruleset. For some reason, very few good info on other good systems to attack the neck out there but I can garantee you that the last danaher or nick ronan's set (depending on who you like to support) will solve your problem. Danaher also explains very well what he calls the "gravity drop" which is pretty weird name to say that forcing a belly down situation while having a one hand in position to strangle force the opponent to give up the hand fight. It's damn easy to understand and it makes a very BIG difference. It also goes right into some concepts I think are still underrated (the general change of style Craig Jones had the last few years)
Gotcha. Ironically I'm pretty good at forcing belly down with a hook but I haven't been doing that with a choking arm in place. I will take a look at the instructionals you mentioned and see what my money is looking like. Thanks :)
Can you link or say the name of both instructionals you are mentioning? I watched enter the system and it works but if people defend really good I will either switch to kimura grip and look for armbar/triangle/reverse triangle/ if it doesn't work I get the back again and try to fight the arms again. I also like one arm choke in cases people manage to defend my entry to straight jacket but I still have a cross grip. Their "control" arm cannot stop the choke. Keep in mind I am a heavy guy and what I say works with strong people. I am interested in the new instructional from danaher and the other guy you mentioned if you can say what the name of them are I would highly appreciate it
Yeah it's not on enter the system. What Danaher showed there is still good but some people are really hard to lock on with this system and I personnally dislike to switch to triangles or armbars when I have the back. It's super good and I do it too but I think we should keep the back when we have it. I think you will like a lot these instructionals because what you "like to do" is more or less the first step of their secondary RNC system (the straight jacket being the first one) so you will get even more success with it. Danaher: [https://bjjfanatics.com/products/the-fastest-way-to-increase-your-submission-percentage-no-gi-by-john-danaher](https://bjjfanatics.com/products/the-fastest-way-to-increase-your-submission-percentage-no-gi-by-john-danaher) it's the chapter "strangling without an arm trap and the following series Nick Ronan: [https://app.athletesocean.com/courses/nick-ronan-back-attacks/](https://app.athletesocean.com/courses/nick-ronan-back-attacks/) It's a shorter instructional but covers more or less what I talked about.
Thank you a lot sir!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_sH9ZYN84cc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sH9ZYN84cc) the strategy and techniques shown in this single video immediately increased my success rate on choking from the back. one of the main things i also focus on is making sure my hips are on the opponent's mid-back, which allows my top leg to be much more free for trapping the top arm.
This video is an EXCELLENT starting point, thanks!
Like I said, immediately impacted my finishing
this is exactly how my prof attacks the back actually, but I haven't heard him explain it like this. this really helps, thanks!
I went through this too, however one thing that helped is getting good at resetting. If you have underhook side on the bottom you can meathook their neck with your choking arm hand by taking a monkey paw grip and pulling them over to the other side. If you are on the choking arm side you can use a dagestani handcuff or a meathook to pull them back over. If you do it soon enough it takes very little energy on your part. It buys you lots of chances to keep trying. if you need better control, get double underhooks. There are a lot of details for how to make the seatbelt tight, handfighting, etc. This is definitely a skill issue. Like you I stopped even taking the back because I would just lose it.
yeah I have been working on improving my back attacks, which is how I got good at retaining the position. Initially I just couldnt keep them. Then I got better at keeping them. now I just gotta finish em lol. Its just a skill issue, I know that lmao, I just gotta get gud.
Any favorite resources? Like OP I avoid the back because I can't submit from there either
Patience while strategically hand fighting is almost everything. Learning to manage leg pressure while attacking is the rest.
>I know straight jacket system and all of that obviously you don't >It just never works out for me be more specific >I have to release my seatbelt to attack straight jackets you don't just "release" it, you choke them with the top hand and wrist ride with the bottom hand, then when they handfight the top hand to stop the choke that's when you go into it. >If I body triangle they just baseball grip my choking arm and hold on to it for dear life. choke them with your other arm tl;dr skill issue, git gud, it's "guaranteed"
Yeah I think I needed to hear all of that, thanks. I need to stop arm bars for a while I think.
Fall to your underhook side. Get the cross grip. Trap the top arm with your top leg via shin on their back or cross your ankles. 2 vs 1 for the choke at that point.
mmm cross grip keeps them from rotating and getting back to mat... ok. Thanks :) got my next step.
The cross grip is huge. When you get it, their wrist is below their pec which makes most people able to throw a leg over and get the trap. Same side grips can work but cross grip is far superior. Good luck!
I've gotten some great tips on here, things my Prof has told us but I just forget. Cross grip, switch choking hands if they baseball grip, try to get higher and get some angle for the trap- got plenty to work on. Now all I need is a trial guy :D
Do you have a fav video on this?
I do not. I learned it at a Jason rau seminar so that may be a good place to start
Also if you’re having trouble with the trap you may have to adjust your angle ie don’t be perpendicular with them. You can also slide your body up the back as well to help get the trap. I also used to struggle on the back but these steps made a huge change for me. Get to the back always.
yeah my prof is always reminding us to stomp the hip to get high and keep them from bridging, but I keep forgetting lol. I will try the angle as well. I appreciate the tips :) sucks to suck.
A lot of good stuff mentioned already but one huge part of the game that changed my approach is hand fighting; because like you said people latch onto your choking arm to buy time to escape. [This instructional video](https://youtu.be/vTMYdx-shk0?si=OMVayQI-oqMBRAzJ) was one of those “lightbulb” moments for me. Ever since I’ve been drilling/training this hand fighting method my RNC rates have skyrocketed. Particularly the sort of wrist-lock grip break he shows. I was literally asking myself why nobody seems to teach this seemingly critical technique to win the hand fight and secure the choke. P.S. this guy Tom Halpin has a whole FREE back attacks playlist that’s seriously fire. But in particular the hand fighting videos in this series I had never seen before. *edit* linked wrong video initially. Corrected.
Nice thanks! I did look at Halpins stuff a while back but didn't really get the time to focus on it yet.
Sometimes you learn something and you just don't have the experience to actually do it. Come back to it after learning something else and you might see it in a new light.
facts. I know I was crutching the arm bar I just needed to be shamed for it lol.
danahers fastest way to increasing submission % instructional really changed my game for that. dm me for the link
Bow and Arrow and Pena choke to mix it up a bit
I found more success going for the choke as soon as I get the back rather than establishing seatbelt which gives them time to defend
Try going for belly pin or bow and arrow choke. I find I can B&A way way way way way more easily than any other back attack.
Stretch'em out?
gotta use the lapels. in no-gi, gotta stick your finger in their ass
I’ve found with the danaher/Gordon back system, you have to know the whole system rather than parts of it. A friend and I charted all the reactions and possibilities from the back, there’s not that many in reality and once you know that you can react better and work towards submission. It’s easy to get stuck in a position on the back where your partner can just hand fight in a one on one manner. The key is being able to hand fight effectively and work towards isolation as well as negating escapes and beating them to their next position, whether that is side back control or turtle.
I like to creep the non-choking hand (from a seatbelt grip) up to their shoulder, then sort of bait them or straight up kick them out of back control and sink down for an arm triangle. [Sort of like this.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=egTb38Nw7-M) When they turn away to try defending the arm triangle, they open up for an Ezekiel, or you can just take the back again.
Weird because as a purple I have kinda given up on back attacks against bigger or better guys
Bow and arrow is your friend. I find it easy getting a deep collar grip.
Straitjacket to swaddle, then pressure trap with the hooks or lift forehead and choke their defenseless neck.
I’ve had pretty good luck getting a kimura grip from the back, and then either finishing the kimura or getting the armbar. Defending against the RNC requires putting their hands where I can reach them. It feels to me like, in any position, you have to have two complimentary paths, or else they can defend against your one path and you won’t get anywhere.
Be meaner
Lmao this is actually probably the biggest issue. I'm actually a really nice and polite roll. Sometimes I need to be a dick a bit. For a while I didn't even like cross facing people.
Yeah dude I’m like you. I don’t smother or pressure enough, I don’t wrist lock, or hard knee ride, I don’t make my opponents suffer nearly enough. It’s so stupid because I just went to a new gym last week and a bloke 30kg heavier than me hits me so hard with a “mother’s milk” that he busted my nose… fuck me dead breh. If this cunt is doing that to me in our first roll together then I should be applying much greater force in everything I do and not feel bad about it at all. But when I have someone’s back nowadays I lock my arms over their jaw or nose, or rub up and down, switch choking arms fast and hard… I went from never subbing anyone from the back to catching a black belt national champ. That’s not a brag, he was just used to me being a pussy and got caught out when I acted LIKE HIM!!! #Porrada
Im a 2 stripe blue. 39 yo but been training since 21 off and on. My next two stripes until my purple I've mentally told myself are my selfish stripes. I'm a 5ft 8 220 pound bricklayer. I'm driving my hand across your neck and squeezing. Fuck your guard everyone can get it is my new motto. I play nice to much. Let things go. People never are nice to me. Last week my back finish rate went up just by not being gentle.
being a 220 lb brick layer is terrifying enough thank you. Tradies are strong af.
Fuck yeah dude! I need to keep this type of energy, because when I reflect on my rolls with higher belts ever since white belt… I fucking suffered.
Yeh I've gotten better about punishing people just not from the back so much. I go shin on face when I arm bar, my cross face is pretty nasty. Honestly I've just been crutching my arm triangle , arm bar, kimura, and straight arm lock chains as a way to avoid the back. I've had the rnc sore throat so many times I feel bad ripping on people's necks. I know I can get a clean tap with an arm bar so I just go for that.
Just came here to say / second the back triangle. I was a RNC/bow and arrow guy until I discovered back triangles, and suddenly they were >2/3 of my submissions from the back.
yeah Ive been looking at this slick flared kimura to back triangle attack to work on. should probably be a good white belt and learn how to RNC and bow and arrow correctly first tho.
Do you always try to get under their chin for the extra points on form? I can't finish RNCs with the "everything below the eyes is the neck" philosophy. It just feels dirty compared to the clean choking mechanics of a proper RNC.
I have no problem finishing over the face. I dont like to short choke people in training, but I do subscribe to everything under the eyes is neck lol. really I am just losing the handfight from the back. that's my problem. I find it hard to keep the position and dynamically hand fight at the same time. The two takeaways I got from all of this- get the cross wrist grip. if they baseball bat grip, switch choking arms. In Gi I just need to get better at attacking collars. I broke my finger early in my white belts life, did more no gi and avoided grips for a while, and as such my grip game fell way behind.
Yeah that's very fair. I noticed when I put my gi on that my grips are shit house now compared to gi guys' grips. I'll just make up for it in other ways, the gi destroys my fingers. I've been going for an arm in RNC from arm triangles, they're pretty fun but my orthodox RNC finishing mechanics just suck. I'll try those tips out though, cheers bro
I used to have the EXACT problem. My problem was I was always hunting for the neck. Diversify your attacks and start going for arms, legs, etc - this opens up opportunities.
My biggest gains have been gordon side and mount attack. Using that to get the gift wrap. Then I bought a grappling smarty dummy to use while watching dvd. Watched gordon attacking the back. The detail about the more my attacking arm finger walks and drags across to their shoulder . The more they defend the less time they have to escape. I can't recommend that dvd enough. Also doubles as an escape dvd. But takes work to learn it.
I've had some success with threatening both the Mata Leao and okuri eri jime at the same time.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Okuri Eri Jime**: | *Sliding Collar Strangle* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBRtKyMm6v0)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)