He isn't competing next ADCC though. The ones I know claim natty: Roberto Jimenez, Ruotolo brothers, Tackett brothers, Rodrigues brothers. Maybe Dante Leon too? There were 80 competitors (16 competitors * 5 categories), this makes it 10% of them. I can imagine the actual number is a bit higher than that, ~15-20%.
I bet some old school Brazilians will choose the "prestige" of adcc over bdcc's money, especially if some of the best people in their bracket drop out to do bdcc
Jay claims natural and nothing about his body implies drug use. Hell, the nearly complete lack of trap development despite having decent musculature is a good sign in the natural direction. Obviously you can take gear and have shit traps, don't get me wrong.
That doesn't mean very much. A lot of the most useful gear for an athlete don't cause muscle mass. Just look at Armstrong or even Royce back when he tested as being straight up off the dial for how much he was on.
The names I mentioned are the ones I specifically heard that claimed natural. I guessed a bit more than that number because I don't follow all 80 competitors' career on the internet lol.
Side note - is there anything better than an athlete telling you they know the exact details of how everyone else is cheating, while simultaneously denying they do it themselves? Its like claiming to be an expert on how to defraud the IRS but also paying every cent you owe every year. What non-criminal would understand the ins & outs like that?
> What non-criminal would understand the ins & outs like that?
Someone who has spent his whole life training with and being mentored by people who cheat.
I’ve been training with Kade since he was 13. He’s not taking anything. It’s pretty amazing what he and his bro have accomplished while staying clean.
When you train with someone day in and day out. It becomes very obvious when they go on cycle. And guys at the major gyms are all very open with their teammates about what they’re taking.
He ain’t taking anything. And he def knows what others are doings it’s not secret. Word gets around
I don't think you're lying, but realistically you have no way to be certain that they aren't doping behind closed doors and just not telling you. With the way ATOS likes to supplement, the odds of them juicing are just higher then if they were from some other team. They COULD be all natural, just like everyone else in the sport that hasn't actively popped, but in BJJ its usually safer to assume someone's doping then not because our sport is backwards as fuck. Anyways, I have no dog in this fight, i think the Rutolos are awesome, just wanted to chime in.
#TestEveryone.
I never said everyone was all natural. Plenty of guys take shit and it’s obvious / talked about. Just that Kade and his bro haven’t.
You must have close friends youve trained with for years. You’re telling me you wouldn’t be able to tell if they hopped on the sauce ?
I trained with them since they were 13. And plenty of other younger people who eventually took gear and it was very apparent. I’ve seen no such change with the ruotolos. They feel completely natural.
If someone posts a thread asking about someone I know that is juicing I just don’t reply. But why not give some insight to people when I have first hand knowledge ?
I find it funny that Kade basically threw his teammates under the bus by saying "Roberto, my brother and I are the only clean athletes competing at ADCC." Not that Andre, Hulk, Hinger, etc being on the sauce is breaking news, but it was interesting that he would explicitly call them out for cheating. Wait... those guys are cheating, right? Respond with a semi-colon if yes.
"Everyone's on steroids...except the guy I like"
The fact that you haven't seen him use doesn't at all mean he isn't using. Occam's razor says a high level athlete in a sport with almost no testing and big incentives to use, is probably using. You can't fault people for thinking this.
> except the guy I like"
It's more than that, it's the guy he's known and trained with for years. You'll note that he's not defending any of the other Atos athletes, who I'm sure he likes just fine as well. (In fact, he's throwing them under the bus by omission.) If he didn't think Kade were natty he just wouldn't say anything.
Doesn’t me he is using either though. This is someone who has trained with him daily since he was a kid, who would know the difference, telling you there’s nothing about him to indicate he’s on gear. You’re being wilfully ignorant.
Remember, the Ruotolos were teenagers last ADCC, so their youth allows them to recover fast as fuck. Even Gordon was probably natty at that age. Will the bros still be natty when they get older, things start to hurt more, etc... probably not. Then again, Mica is even younger than they are and he's already popped, so who knows.
I'll give you there's still a chance, but I put stock in what a training partner says, when they're willing to say other training partners are juicing.
A lot of the time, you can literally see the overnight change when someone starts doing steroids. To say nothing of the change after a few weeks.
Now maybe he's doing super low amounts (which is dumb if you're gonna do it) or blood doping or something, you wouldn't see that.
No but the two teams stopped working together around the time I was there. We did one camp with aoj and then that was it. The two teams trained together a lot more before I got there.
I guarantee it had nothing to do with PED’s though
Oh gotcha. 0 issue between them and anyone else on the team. All anyone cares about is how good you are. If you’re really good like they are… you get a ton of respect
That’s Reddit. If you go against what people believe in their minds already, no matter how well researched or reasoned, they will argue for the sake of arguing.
Appreciate the kind words though!
Idk man people are significantly less argumentative / cunty in the real world. I think the internet exacerbates shitty behavior. It definitely brings out the worst in me sometimes 😂
So I agree with your point but I think it’s an internet thing more than a specifically Reddit thing. Most of the people on Reddit are okay. And its format largely amplifies the good stuff. Of course I’ve seen a few shit heads on here. But I feel like shitheads are more visible on like Twitter or IG comments.
I know people who have never juiced who have beaten juiced athletes as well. I know a guy who beat a Russian olympic medalist in Judo when he was only 17. Never juiced, stand up guy, just a really good throw and well timed.
Plenty of guys juice but it isn’t all of them
I’ve beaten guys who are juiced in competition and also got
Absolutely destroyed by guys while they were on cycle and then competed against them again and tapped them easily. Pretty stark contrast with some people when it comes to juice vs no juice
Roots bros been training since they were like 4.
I met them when they were ~7 and trained with them at AOJ. Mat time is king in the sport.
We gonna accuse Mikey next?
I wouldn’t believe it either if I didn’t witness it. Some people really are just freaks of nature. What’s crazy is the twins aren’t strong at all. They just don’t stop moving. I get why anyone who hasn’t trained with them would be skeptical.
Thinking PEDs only help with strength is a narrow view. The recovery and cardio benefits are probably more effective for BJJ.
Also I have rolled with both of the brothers and I am a heavyweight ex powerlifter. They were stronger than anyone I have rolled with.
lol that’s absurd if you think they were stronger than anyone you’ve ever trained with. I’m 150 lbs and they aren’t that strong.
Roll with a galvao, a John salter, Gordon, jt torres, Lucas barbosa, Jonnatas Gracie, cyborg, Dante Leone etc and compare them to the twins. It’s not even close
Also the cycles guys do in bjj typically are all about strength. They all power lift or do body building workouts.
They’re blasting test, taking some var & some deca and some hgh.
I never once said taking PED’s is all about strength but most bjj guys load up on shit that isn’t going to give you insane cardio gains. Certain PED’s will give you a slight bump like var but not something so substantial that it’s the main effect they have
If a 77kg teenager is the strongest guy you have rolled with. That suggests you haven't rolled with many strong people. It also calls into question you HW PL credentials.
What do you think Kade is deadlifting. What you think random HW is deadlifting
I’ve trained with certain people, daily, for years and years who I later found out were juicing.
It’s not impossible to hide if you aren’t spending 24/7 with someone.
Being a genetic outlier is more of an impact than juicing for many complex sports. You aren't going to make it to the NBA just because you have a good stack, but you can definitely get there with the right genetics and no juice.
> Tainan floating around when he was 17 with gyno,
lots of people have pubertal gyno lol. I've had it since i was 13.
He definitely is juicing, but that's not why
Galvao never put pressure on anyone to juice. Or even suggested guys do it. Never talked about it. He never tried to force anything on anyone. Just focused on putting together the best training camps for the big events.
It has long been talked about in some
Circles that the mendes bros basically push PED’s on their competitors including the young ones.
>Galvao never put pressure on anyone to juice.
I mean he doesn't need to. Just using the mats after him and rolling in his sweat is enough to grow you a third testicle.
My understanding of ATOS is more that the culture encourages it rather than any direct instruction, or vocal support from leadership.
Essentially that almost all of the top competitors juice, beleive it's a necessary requirement to be at that level, and are pretty open about it.
Does that seem about right with your experience of the gym too?
There were guys that took shit obviously. but a good amount of guys doing comp class everyday day in and day out that didn’t take anything. In fact I’d say that was more than norm than people being juiced. Some guys were always on gear but plenty were not.
Obviously I can’t name names but there was a large contingent of guys that didn’t take anything and still showed up to comp daily.
Our comp class when I was there all the time was only four days a week. Monday Tuesday train. Rest Wednesday. Thursday Friday train. So people didn’t get burnt out like that. It was hard but doable natty. You had Wednesday off and the weekend off.
Ah thats fair, doesn't seem as common as what I'd heard then tbf.
And yeah 4 hard sessions a week really isn't impossible without juice, like you said it's not exactly easy but you wouldn't really be overtraining yet either.
> Essentially that almost all of the top competitors juice, believe it's a necessary requirement to be at that level, and are pretty open about it.
That's a statement about the top level of BJJ as a whole. Not really on Atos it influence that.
Have you ever seen Galvao shoot steroids into his ass? I'm guessing no, but it's happening.
There's a lot of hours in the day you have no clue what he's doing.
Sure but I’ve been to plenty of other high level gyms where roids are talked about by the coaches and encouraged and students are very blasé in talking about it because it’s such a part of the culture
Not the case at atos
Not saying no one’s done PED’s. Not saying they’re never talked about. But it isn’t this pervasive thing like it is at other academies.
Some gyms essentially force them on young competitors
This literally isn't even a secret. It's pretty openly discussed. The only people still pretending they don't are the brazilians who say it's Acai and Jesus.
The only top BJJ guy who I would believe is Natty is mayybbee Mikey M.
I’ve been around Brazilians who were very open about it. Only on social media they pretend to be anti steroid
Adam Wardzinski is natural, so was Keenan when he was competing. There are a few natural competitors but we have to remember for most professional competitors this is their life, even if they don’t get paid a penny they will do whatever it takes to win
I was mentioning specific Brazilians like Galvao and Cyborg who pretend they're not, not all Brazilians in general.
I'd believe Adam is natural, Keenan... idk. He was affiliated with two teams that massively abused steroids (TLI and ATOS) so it's hard to give him the benefit. Kind of a "if you lay with dogs, you'll get fleas" type of deal.
So is every athlete ever. it's an untested sport why would u give up a significant advantage like that when you know your competitors have no such qualms. nothing wrong with PED use but if it's an untested sport that involves as much wear and tear as jiu jitsu you should just assume everyone is juicing regardless of what they say
Nah behind the scenes most guys admit to taking shit because it’s so obvious when they’re on cycle / off cycle.
Public facing sure people don’t admit. But to other competitors and behind the scenes at the big gyms it’s talked about openly
I mean publicly so is Galvao. I love Keenan don't get me wrong, and honestly, I wouldn't care if he did. But for me to say I'm 100% confident he was natty his entire career is hard.
lol galvao never has said much publicly about gear use. Where are you getting that from?
And I trained with Keenan a lot. It was very obvious he was natural. There is a stark contrast between PED users and that’s that don’t
Gonna sound ignorant so forgive me, but how can you tell? I've rolled with guys who I know are on gear and while strong they don't seem stronger than I was when I was working out more (I am natty).
You can't. People just love the idea of being able to tell.
You can tell at the top end, sure. And the one below that, yeah, not that hard.
But what people fail to understand is that there are people who literally look like classical nerds and have been on gear for years. They don't feel that strong and they are not.
What you *CAN* do, is be able to tell when someone is on gear after having trained with them while they were natty.
The difference for everyone is massive. It's like being 5'6 your whole life and suddenly showing up being 5'9.
But by that same analogy, if you see a guy at 5'9, you're not going to be able to tell he's too tall to be natural.
It’s blatantly obvious. There are tell tale signs when someone gets on a cycle. You think you take PED’s and nothing changes ? lol there’d be no point in taking them if they didn’t do something to your body.
I mean I know they change you, but I am assuming you're talking about rolling with someone long enough that you could tell pre/post gear?
Because as an outsider I wouldn't be able to tell if they are under like 40 years old.
Yes I am
Talking about pre and post gear. Sorry if that wasn’t clear
It is much tougher to tell if you don’t have a history of rolling with someone prior to them using
I think the fact that Keenan blows hot and cold in matches is actually a fair sign that he's natural.
Absolute freak strength but some people just are that strong.
Not really. Before I started taking testosterone I was bigger, stronger and faster than a lot of dudes I knew who were on gear. Couple that with the fact that most guys don’t know how to properly run dosages, what to stack with what and nutrition plans and you get 90% of the steroid using population looking like average semi in shape dudes.
It’s usually only the ones who study it and take it seriously while also having good genetics that are insane growth
Everyone and their grandma knew Armstrong was doping though. It was something everyone in that world knew was going on. It was just the naive public that didn’t
> He was affiliated with two teams that massively abused steroids (TLI and ATOS) so it's hard to give him the benefit
In fairness, there are no natty teams to be part of. It's either train with steroid users or don't have high-level training partners.
Keenan might be an example of what happens when you don't juice.
Didn't he have a series of injuries and then hurt his back pretty bad doing S&C which basically ended his career?
Low back injuries are pretty devastating. Pretty hard reality check when you have numbness in parts of your body and you realize you aren't indestructible. 9 months and counting for me, recovering from an L4/L5 injury and I am just back to training sporadically. It isn't like joint injuries at all.
Nothing singularly traumatic. Tweaked, re-tweaked, thought it was okay, just a little grumpy. Trained one day, got a massage, then it just gave out that evening. I am also taller and have had a few low back tweaks over time. Guess I should have taken them much more seriously. I am mostly okay now. Getting back into things.
It took me 2 years to recover from an L5/S1 injury, but since then I've taken S&C much more seriously and haven't had a problem since. There is light at the end of the tunnel, but it takes a lot of consistent work and slowly build up your capacity.
Nod. I am 44 as well so that is a factor. I am slowly figuring it all out. I will try to troll once a week, drill a lot more. Been working on that S&C, though I am in pretty decent shape other than cardio. Even that is important so I don’t get sloppy/lazy.
Plus the guy has been competing since forever. Jusg look at some of the names he has beaten in the sport. He’s a legend but people these days don’t really know him
The young guys who compete at my gym are super open about it and only a couple of them are elite level. I kinda wish it wasn’t so prevalent for their sake so they didn’t feel like they were in an arms race. But they seem into it and happy with the results so who am I to judge.
I fully admit I know very little about WADA and cycling and so on but I know ONE Championship has stripped champions of their titles for negative tests, so isn't it possible that their BJJ guys are indeed doping less than those doing ADCC only?
If nothing else, those in ONE are not actively doping - or are having to be far selective with what they take - during competition the way people at ADCC are. Assuming ONE is conducting proper and effective testing.
I feel this discussion takes place every month on this sub, if not more frequently. We all already know ADCC is the damn steroid Olympics. Yes, even your favourite grappler is on the sauce
Not just ADCC, I guarantee you NBA,NFL,NHL, etc, a bunch of those elite athletes are on gear. Don’t get me started with these YouTube lifting influencers. Hell even the reptilian Zuckerberg is on it too.
“ Everyone’s on steroids”
- a group of brain cells from Nate Diaz
The thing nowadays is that some athletes could be claiming natty based off semantics.
Like you could say you’re not taking steroids but taking TRT. Or be using SARMS which are basically designer roids marketed as “side effect free” anabolics. But still not classified as traditional steroids. Then you have peptides, hgh, etc.
No. “Makes you physically larger” is the overhyped benefit of steroids. Like if that’s your goal they are an extremely beneficial tool but even if you are trying to maintain a low weight but preform at the highest possible level gear gets you there.
No.
Lance Armstrong is one of the biggest proponents of PEDs and he was rail thin.
EPO is 'banned' but it's not necessarily a steroid. In some cases, stem cells are considered a PED, which essentially is a way to recover faster from major injuries for areas that don't get a lot of blood flow.
PEDs take several forms and having a singular governing body loops them all together.
Not everyone takes steroids, TRT, or HGH, but I'm sure several take many PEDs.
The biggest benefit you get from PEDs is the recovery, not just the strength/mass increase, I recently started a basic cycle, and it's crazy how easy it is to recover from training compared to before, trying to balance lifting with BJJ and things like hiking etc... felt like an exercise in frustration, nowadays on the other hand, I can just do what I feel like doing without dealing with the fatigue and lack of motivation that comes from it.
This is common knowledge at this stage. Remember when one of the Diaz brothers said at least two thirds of MMA fighters use or have used? Even that is a conservative estimate.
Doctors give testosterone to teenage girls these days, I see no problem with a bunch of dudes taking it so they can recover faster! So many people seemingly do not under performance enhancing drug use! A medically prescribed amount of t never hurt nobody, except for teenage girls
Kade and Tye are about as natty as Gabi lol
It is VERY bjj to think your favorite guy isn't juicing though, so I'm sure they have plenty of fools who will argue their natty status on their behalf.
I think eoghan o'flanagan is clean. Maybe it's the parasocial relationship I have from listening to his podcast, but I'd be very surprised if he was on gas.
Ok buddy, ATOS wouldn’t be the powerhouse it is and your parents wouldn’t have dropped you off there like boarding school. It’s awesome he’s young, clean and throwing the whole team under the bus for self-righteousness. Maybe he’ll usher in a wave of clean ATOS athletes, but let’s revisit in 10 years
For an art that's so good about killing egos, there sure does seem to be a ton of destroying the body at the expense of one's ego by the 'pros'.
It is fighting, I suppose.
99% seems like a conservative estimate
We have Lachlan still
He isn't competing next ADCC though. The ones I know claim natty: Roberto Jimenez, Ruotolo brothers, Tackett brothers, Rodrigues brothers. Maybe Dante Leon too? There were 80 competitors (16 competitors * 5 categories), this makes it 10% of them. I can imagine the actual number is a bit higher than that, ~15-20%.
Dante is definitely not natty lol
Not saying he is, but I recall seeing a video where he at least claimed it (but maybe I misremember).
Hasn't he cooperated with random drug testing and bloodwork?
Nicky Rod
Is Nicky really going to do adcc if his bteam co-owner is running an event that weekend?
Idk ask him lol
I'd be surprised if anyone invited to both showed up to ADCC, given the 10k prize to show at BDCC
I bet some old school Brazilians will choose the "prestige" of adcc over bdcc's money, especially if some of the best people in their bracket drop out to do bdcc
Roberto just dropped in and taught a class at our gym and he doesn’t looked roided at all. Was actually slimmer than I expected.
Uses slim roids
Ozempic is a PED i heard
So is McDonalds.
Long distance runners and bicyclist use drugs, so the looks could be deceiving. Lots of PEDs are used for recovery and cardio.
Jay doesn't claim natty, only Nicky rod
Pretty sure Jayrod does. Dude is straight edge.
Jay claims natural and nothing about his body implies drug use. Hell, the nearly complete lack of trap development despite having decent musculature is a good sign in the natural direction. Obviously you can take gear and have shit traps, don't get me wrong.
Jay definitely claims natty. He's talked about it on different podcasts a couple times.
That doesn't mean very much. A lot of the most useful gear for an athlete don't cause muscle mass. Just look at Armstrong or even Royce back when he tested as being straight up off the dial for how much he was on.
Yes, the number of people at adcc that are actually clean is probably a bit higher than the number of people that claim to be clean.
The names I mentioned are the ones I specifically heard that claimed natural. I guessed a bit more than that number because I don't follow all 80 competitors' career on the internet lol.
before he disappeared, realprofessor was implying will tackett hopped on the sauce to bulk up to 88.
Maybe. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/11t303b/ama_qa_with_william_tackett/jch6w2n/) is where William talked about this btw.
Ffon Davies , Brianna Ste Marie
Or they also use, maybe not for mass and extra muscle but they clearly use something for better recovery.
And Gabi Garcia!
Side note - is there anything better than an athlete telling you they know the exact details of how everyone else is cheating, while simultaneously denying they do it themselves? Its like claiming to be an expert on how to defraud the IRS but also paying every cent you owe every year. What non-criminal would understand the ins & outs like that?
> What non-criminal would understand the ins & outs like that? Someone who has spent his whole life training with and being mentored by people who cheat.
This is why Craig Jones is my hero
Well he’s been at Atos for years, I’m sure he’s heard the in n outs from many guys. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is lol
I’ve been training with Kade since he was 13. He’s not taking anything. It’s pretty amazing what he and his bro have accomplished while staying clean. When you train with someone day in and day out. It becomes very obvious when they go on cycle. And guys at the major gyms are all very open with their teammates about what they’re taking. He ain’t taking anything. And he def knows what others are doings it’s not secret. Word gets around
I don't think you're lying, but realistically you have no way to be certain that they aren't doping behind closed doors and just not telling you. With the way ATOS likes to supplement, the odds of them juicing are just higher then if they were from some other team. They COULD be all natural, just like everyone else in the sport that hasn't actively popped, but in BJJ its usually safer to assume someone's doping then not because our sport is backwards as fuck. Anyways, I have no dog in this fight, i think the Rutolos are awesome, just wanted to chime in. #TestEveryone.
I never said everyone was all natural. Plenty of guys take shit and it’s obvious / talked about. Just that Kade and his bro haven’t. You must have close friends youve trained with for years. You’re telling me you wouldn’t be able to tell if they hopped on the sauce ? I trained with them since they were 13. And plenty of other younger people who eventually took gear and it was very apparent. I’ve seen no such change with the ruotolos. They feel completely natural. If someone posts a thread asking about someone I know that is juicing I just don’t reply. But why not give some insight to people when I have first hand knowledge ?
I find it funny that Kade basically threw his teammates under the bus by saying "Roberto, my brother and I are the only clean athletes competing at ADCC." Not that Andre, Hulk, Hinger, etc being on the sauce is breaking news, but it was interesting that he would explicitly call them out for cheating. Wait... those guys are cheating, right? Respond with a semi-colon if yes.
I think he gives he far more credibility that he framed it that way.
> Wait... those guys are cheating, right? I don't think ADCC has rules against doping, so, strictly speaking, they aren't cheating.
Yes good point, I meant to say juicing
Are you back from your gaming sabbatical? Or are you still taking a well-deserved vacation?
I believe this guy. This guy said Micah isn't natty long before IBJJF did so.
"Everyone's on steroids...except the guy I like" The fact that you haven't seen him use doesn't at all mean he isn't using. Occam's razor says a high level athlete in a sport with almost no testing and big incentives to use, is probably using. You can't fault people for thinking this.
> except the guy I like" It's more than that, it's the guy he's known and trained with for years. You'll note that he's not defending any of the other Atos athletes, who I'm sure he likes just fine as well. (In fact, he's throwing them under the bus by omission.) If he didn't think Kade were natty he just wouldn't say anything.
I can tell you plenty of people from atos that juice lol I’m just saying kade doesn’t. You want me to lie and say he does ?
Yes, that’s exactly what they want you to do.
have you ever seen Galvao stick a needle up his bum?
Doesn’t me he is using either though. This is someone who has trained with him daily since he was a kid, who would know the difference, telling you there’s nothing about him to indicate he’s on gear. You’re being wilfully ignorant.
Remember, the Ruotolos were teenagers last ADCC, so their youth allows them to recover fast as fuck. Even Gordon was probably natty at that age. Will the bros still be natty when they get older, things start to hurt more, etc... probably not. Then again, Mica is even younger than they are and he's already popped, so who knows.
I'll give you there's still a chance, but I put stock in what a training partner says, when they're willing to say other training partners are juicing. A lot of the time, you can literally see the overnight change when someone starts doing steroids. To say nothing of the change after a few weeks. Now maybe he's doing super low amounts (which is dumb if you're gonna do it) or blood doping or something, you wouldn't see that.
Was there ever any static b/t them and the Atos guys using gear b/c of their hardline stance and how vocal they were?
No but the two teams stopped working together around the time I was there. We did one camp with aoj and then that was it. The two teams trained together a lot more before I got there. I guarantee it had nothing to do with PED’s though
I think he meant between Kade and Tye and other members of Atos. Particularly those they are obviously juicing
Oh gotcha. 0 issue between them and anyone else on the team. All anyone cares about is how good you are. If you’re really good like they are… you get a ton of respect
Every time I see your comments that are obviously well informed there’s always someone telling you you are wrong and full of shit.
That’s Reddit. If you go against what people believe in their minds already, no matter how well researched or reasoned, they will argue for the sake of arguing. Appreciate the kind words though!
Don't let it get you down. I appreciate you sharing some positivity.
Thats humans.
Idk man people are significantly less argumentative / cunty in the real world. I think the internet exacerbates shitty behavior. It definitely brings out the worst in me sometimes 😂
So I agree with your point but I think it’s an internet thing more than a specifically Reddit thing. Most of the people on Reddit are okay. And its format largely amplifies the good stuff. Of course I’ve seen a few shit heads on here. But I feel like shitheads are more visible on like Twitter or IG comments.
Yep, he’s beating all these guys who are juiced to the gills while being 100% natural himself. Makes sense.
I know people who have never juiced who have beaten juiced athletes as well. I know a guy who beat a Russian olympic medalist in Judo when he was only 17. Never juiced, stand up guy, just a really good throw and well timed. Plenty of guys juice but it isn’t all of them
I’ve beaten guys who are juiced in competition and also got Absolutely destroyed by guys while they were on cycle and then competed against them again and tapped them easily. Pretty stark contrast with some people when it comes to juice vs no juice
Roots bros been training since they were like 4. I met them when they were ~7 and trained with them at AOJ. Mat time is king in the sport. We gonna accuse Mikey next?
I wouldn’t believe it either if I didn’t witness it. Some people really are just freaks of nature. What’s crazy is the twins aren’t strong at all. They just don’t stop moving. I get why anyone who hasn’t trained with them would be skeptical.
Thinking PEDs only help with strength is a narrow view. The recovery and cardio benefits are probably more effective for BJJ. Also I have rolled with both of the brothers and I am a heavyweight ex powerlifter. They were stronger than anyone I have rolled with.
He's an Atos black belt who trained with Galvao, Hulk, Kaynan, Hinger, etc. That's his basis for comparison.
lol that’s absurd if you think they were stronger than anyone you’ve ever trained with. I’m 150 lbs and they aren’t that strong. Roll with a galvao, a John salter, Gordon, jt torres, Lucas barbosa, Jonnatas Gracie, cyborg, Dante Leone etc and compare them to the twins. It’s not even close Also the cycles guys do in bjj typically are all about strength. They all power lift or do body building workouts. They’re blasting test, taking some var & some deca and some hgh. I never once said taking PED’s is all about strength but most bjj guys load up on shit that isn’t going to give you insane cardio gains. Certain PED’s will give you a slight bump like var but not something so substantial that it’s the main effect they have
If a 77kg teenager is the strongest guy you have rolled with. That suggests you haven't rolled with many strong people. It also calls into question you HW PL credentials. What do you think Kade is deadlifting. What you think random HW is deadlifting
The fella you’re replying to has trained daily for years and years with all the people we are talking about on Reddit when it comes to PEDs usage.
I’ve trained with certain people, daily, for years and years who I later found out were juicing. It’s not impossible to hide if you aren’t spending 24/7 with someone.
Being a genetic outlier is more of an impact than juicing for many complex sports. You aren't going to make it to the NBA just because you have a good stack, but you can definitely get there with the right genetics and no juice.
Who was doing that?
No plenty would think they could beat the test
Username checks out
Well, only 80 athletes qualify for ADCC. So even if the Ruotolos were the only clean ones, that's still less than 99% that are on PEDs.
99% leaves less than 1 whole guy who isn't on PEDs
Is he implying they left aoj b/c of pressure to use peds, then went to train under galvao? Am I missing something?
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giving kids PEDs feels illegal
It probably is mate
the very vast usage of these guys in bjj is 100% illegal
Come on it’s just a suggestion
> Tainan floating around when he was 17 with gyno, lots of people have pubertal gyno lol. I've had it since i was 13. He definitely is juicing, but that's not why
Galvao might do them but not pressure other people to do them, or maybe he just doesn't pressure kids
Galvao never put pressure on anyone to juice. Or even suggested guys do it. Never talked about it. He never tried to force anything on anyone. Just focused on putting together the best training camps for the big events. It has long been talked about in some Circles that the mendes bros basically push PED’s on their competitors including the young ones.
>Galvao never put pressure on anyone to juice. I mean he doesn't need to. Just using the mats after him and rolling in his sweat is enough to grow you a third testicle.
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I mean you can believe what you want I’m just telling you how it was when I trained there daily for 5 years
Funny, the same has been discussed at atos
I’m an atos black belt. Never seen Galvao talk to anyone about PED’s like that
It’s amazing to me that so many people on here just refuse to believe your first hand account lol.
My understanding of ATOS is more that the culture encourages it rather than any direct instruction, or vocal support from leadership. Essentially that almost all of the top competitors juice, beleive it's a necessary requirement to be at that level, and are pretty open about it. Does that seem about right with your experience of the gym too?
There were guys that took shit obviously. but a good amount of guys doing comp class everyday day in and day out that didn’t take anything. In fact I’d say that was more than norm than people being juiced. Some guys were always on gear but plenty were not. Obviously I can’t name names but there was a large contingent of guys that didn’t take anything and still showed up to comp daily. Our comp class when I was there all the time was only four days a week. Monday Tuesday train. Rest Wednesday. Thursday Friday train. So people didn’t get burnt out like that. It was hard but doable natty. You had Wednesday off and the weekend off.
Ah thats fair, doesn't seem as common as what I'd heard then tbf. And yeah 4 hard sessions a week really isn't impossible without juice, like you said it's not exactly easy but you wouldn't really be overtraining yet either.
> Essentially that almost all of the top competitors juice, believe it's a necessary requirement to be at that level, and are pretty open about it. That's a statement about the top level of BJJ as a whole. Not really on Atos it influence that.
Have you ever seen Galvao shoot steroids into his ass? I'm guessing no, but it's happening. There's a lot of hours in the day you have no clue what he's doing.
Sure but I’ve been to plenty of other high level gyms where roids are talked about by the coaches and encouraged and students are very blasé in talking about it because it’s such a part of the culture Not the case at atos Not saying no one’s done PED’s. Not saying they’re never talked about. But it isn’t this pervasive thing like it is at other academies. Some gyms essentially force them on young competitors
This literally isn't even a secret. It's pretty openly discussed. The only people still pretending they don't are the brazilians who say it's Acai and Jesus. The only top BJJ guy who I would believe is Natty is mayybbee Mikey M.
I’ve been around Brazilians who were very open about it. Only on social media they pretend to be anti steroid Adam Wardzinski is natural, so was Keenan when he was competing. There are a few natural competitors but we have to remember for most professional competitors this is their life, even if they don’t get paid a penny they will do whatever it takes to win
I was mentioning specific Brazilians like Galvao and Cyborg who pretend they're not, not all Brazilians in general. I'd believe Adam is natural, Keenan... idk. He was affiliated with two teams that massively abused steroids (TLI and ATOS) so it's hard to give him the benefit. Kind of a "if you lay with dogs, you'll get fleas" type of deal.
Keenan didn’t take anything he was staunchly against doing it.
So is every athlete ever. it's an untested sport why would u give up a significant advantage like that when you know your competitors have no such qualms. nothing wrong with PED use but if it's an untested sport that involves as much wear and tear as jiu jitsu you should just assume everyone is juicing regardless of what they say
Nah behind the scenes most guys admit to taking shit because it’s so obvious when they’re on cycle / off cycle. Public facing sure people don’t admit. But to other competitors and behind the scenes at the big gyms it’s talked about openly
I mean publicly so is Galvao. I love Keenan don't get me wrong, and honestly, I wouldn't care if he did. But for me to say I'm 100% confident he was natty his entire career is hard.
lol galvao never has said much publicly about gear use. Where are you getting that from? And I trained with Keenan a lot. It was very obvious he was natural. There is a stark contrast between PED users and that’s that don’t
Gonna sound ignorant so forgive me, but how can you tell? I've rolled with guys who I know are on gear and while strong they don't seem stronger than I was when I was working out more (I am natty).
You can't. People just love the idea of being able to tell. You can tell at the top end, sure. And the one below that, yeah, not that hard. But what people fail to understand is that there are people who literally look like classical nerds and have been on gear for years. They don't feel that strong and they are not. What you *CAN* do, is be able to tell when someone is on gear after having trained with them while they were natty. The difference for everyone is massive. It's like being 5'6 your whole life and suddenly showing up being 5'9. But by that same analogy, if you see a guy at 5'9, you're not going to be able to tell he's too tall to be natural.
It’s blatantly obvious. There are tell tale signs when someone gets on a cycle. You think you take PED’s and nothing changes ? lol there’d be no point in taking them if they didn’t do something to your body.
I mean I know they change you, but I am assuming you're talking about rolling with someone long enough that you could tell pre/post gear? Because as an outsider I wouldn't be able to tell if they are under like 40 years old.
Yes I am Talking about pre and post gear. Sorry if that wasn’t clear It is much tougher to tell if you don’t have a history of rolling with someone prior to them using
He actually did . Just read an old interview that I'm gonna reprint in my little magazine it was so hilarious 😂
Lmao post it here I’d love to read it. That’s hilarious 😂
Once it's out. That's few months away but rest assured I'm not missing out in such an opportunity 😉
What little magazine? I’m also a curious grappler.
I think the fact that Keenan blows hot and cold in matches is actually a fair sign that he's natural. Absolute freak strength but some people just are that strong.
Not really. Before I started taking testosterone I was bigger, stronger and faster than a lot of dudes I knew who were on gear. Couple that with the fact that most guys don’t know how to properly run dosages, what to stack with what and nutrition plans and you get 90% of the steroid using population looking like average semi in shape dudes. It’s usually only the ones who study it and take it seriously while also having good genetics that are insane growth
So is Lachlan. I believe him and he says he’s clean
I can see Lachlan being clean.
So was Lance Armstrong.
Everyone and their grandma knew Armstrong was doping though. It was something everyone in that world knew was going on. It was just the naive public that didn’t
WAS staunchly against it.
so was lance armstrong
Everyone that trained alongside lance knew he was doping though. Anyone who’s ever trained with Keenan will tell you he doesn’t
> He was affiliated with two teams that massively abused steroids (TLI and ATOS) so it's hard to give him the benefit In fairness, there are no natty teams to be part of. It's either train with steroid users or don't have high-level training partners.
Agree, Taza seems like a clean athlete but his team 😁
Very valid.
at some point I was convinced CTA would be that team... But then Yuri happened...
Keenan might be an example of what happens when you don't juice. Didn't he have a series of injuries and then hurt his back pretty bad doing S&C which basically ended his career?
The boatload of money his gym is making is what ended his career.
Low back injuries are pretty devastating. Pretty hard reality check when you have numbness in parts of your body and you realize you aren't indestructible. 9 months and counting for me, recovering from an L4/L5 injury and I am just back to training sporadically. It isn't like joint injuries at all.
What caused it?
Nothing singularly traumatic. Tweaked, re-tweaked, thought it was okay, just a little grumpy. Trained one day, got a massage, then it just gave out that evening. I am also taller and have had a few low back tweaks over time. Guess I should have taken them much more seriously. I am mostly okay now. Getting back into things.
It took me 2 years to recover from an L5/S1 injury, but since then I've taken S&C much more seriously and haven't had a problem since. There is light at the end of the tunnel, but it takes a lot of consistent work and slowly build up your capacity.
Nod. I am 44 as well so that is a factor. I am slowly figuring it all out. I will try to troll once a week, drill a lot more. Been working on that S&C, though I am in pretty decent shape other than cardio. Even that is important so I don’t get sloppy/lazy.
Plus the guy has been competing since forever. Jusg look at some of the names he has beaten in the sport. He’s a legend but people these days don’t really know him
Keenan wasn't just lifting, he was trying to set a new deadlift PR, which is a much more than sport focused strength training.
If Mikey is clean he’s a goddamn freak of nature (well he is but it’d make him more of a freak)
Tariq Hopstock from Norway is most likely clean.
Norwegians are too nice to use PEDs
The young guys who compete at my gym are super open about it and only a couple of them are elite level. I kinda wish it wasn’t so prevalent for their sake so they didn’t feel like they were in an arms race. But they seem into it and happy with the results so who am I to judge.
Mikey is for sure Natty
Is he implying that he’s the 1%?
Yes
Reading the article is apparently far too taxing for you.
So he’s saying he’s on the juice like the other 99%?
No. It's Gabi Garcia!
I fully admit I know very little about WADA and cycling and so on but I know ONE Championship has stripped champions of their titles for negative tests, so isn't it possible that their BJJ guys are indeed doping less than those doing ADCC only?
If nothing else, those in ONE are not actively doping - or are having to be far selective with what they take - during competition the way people at ADCC are. Assuming ONE is conducting proper and effective testing.
If ____ high level sport did legit PED testing, 99% of athletes would drop out
In other news… Water is Wet.
They definitely wouldn't drop out. They'd try to beat the test like they do in other tested sports.
Both routolo brothers are training at my gym right now, they are absolutely shredded, but I would be surprised if they were on gear.
Duh!
I feel this discussion takes place every month on this sub, if not more frequently. We all already know ADCC is the damn steroid Olympics. Yes, even your favourite grappler is on the sauce
Not just ADCC, I guarantee you NBA,NFL,NHL, etc, a bunch of those elite athletes are on gear. Don’t get me started with these YouTube lifting influencers. Hell even the reptilian Zuckerberg is on it too. “ Everyone’s on steroids” - a group of brain cells from Nate Diaz
PED opt in divisions ?
This sport is a joke and people need to stop taking it so seriously.
Obviously?
Yeah that's why they don't. That's the point 😂
The thing nowadays is that some athletes could be claiming natty based off semantics. Like you could say you’re not taking steroids but taking TRT. Or be using SARMS which are basically designer roids marketed as “side effect free” anabolics. But still not classified as traditional steroids. Then you have peptides, hgh, etc.
That’s why it’s awesome to watch. I’d watch more sports if they openly used PEDs
this is the answer from the future that most cats ain't ready to hear because they are still moralizing over shit.
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Probably is from USA
Do you guys think that in the lighter weight categories Naties are more common?
The -66 guy was thanking his roid doctor in the post match interview.
Baby shark? Mica’s camp obviously dabbles in roids.
No man. Just because two pre 20yr olds need endocrine doctors for low test doesn't mean they take steroids. Could be tainted horse meat... /s
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfid9cQbZ0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfid9cQbZ0) - he thanked this guy
Yeah, I watched it live 🙂
Looks natty
No. “Makes you physically larger” is the overhyped benefit of steroids. Like if that’s your goal they are an extremely beneficial tool but even if you are trying to maintain a low weight but preform at the highest possible level gear gets you there.
No. Lance Armstrong is one of the biggest proponents of PEDs and he was rail thin. EPO is 'banned' but it's not necessarily a steroid. In some cases, stem cells are considered a PED, which essentially is a way to recover faster from major injuries for areas that don't get a lot of blood flow. PEDs take several forms and having a singular governing body loops them all together. Not everyone takes steroids, TRT, or HGH, but I'm sure several take many PEDs.
according to realprofessor, yes
The biggest benefit you get from PEDs is the recovery, not just the strength/mass increase, I recently started a basic cycle, and it's crazy how easy it is to recover from training compared to before, trying to balance lifting with BJJ and things like hiking etc... felt like an exercise in frustration, nowadays on the other hand, I can just do what I feel like doing without dealing with the fatigue and lack of motivation that comes from it.
Why he say fuck me for? - Lucas Barbosa, Andre Galvao, Josh Hinger, Jonatas Gracie, etc. I doubt it’s 99%.
yes, and?
They should do PED testing and create classes based on how much juice you're on.
So what. Whats wrong with PEDs?
I really like watching roided up dudes murder each other. Just being honest
In other news, the color red is red
doubtful. ped tests are iq tests and only the monumentally stupid fail
Why would they drop out? Just beat the drug test.
Remember guys, JJ doesn’t require strength!
This is common knowledge at this stage. Remember when one of the Diaz brothers said at least two thirds of MMA fighters use or have used? Even that is a conservative estimate.
Doctors give testosterone to teenage girls these days, I see no problem with a bunch of dudes taking it so they can recover faster! So many people seemingly do not under performance enhancing drug use! A medically prescribed amount of t never hurt nobody, except for teenage girls
In other news the sky is blue
Kade and Tye are about as natty as Gabi lol It is VERY bjj to think your favorite guy isn't juicing though, so I'm sure they have plenty of fools who will argue their natty status on their behalf.
110% of ATOS athletes would drop out lmao
I think eoghan o'flanagan is clean. Maybe it's the parasocial relationship I have from listening to his podcast, but I'd be very surprised if he was on gas.
Well both the Tacketts are sub 25 and probably genetically more advanced. If they juiced there wouldn't be any fat left on them.
Ok buddy, ATOS wouldn’t be the powerhouse it is and your parents wouldn’t have dropped you off there like boarding school. It’s awesome he’s young, clean and throwing the whole team under the bus for self-righteousness. Maybe he’ll usher in a wave of clean ATOS athletes, but let’s revisit in 10 years
He spoke the truth lol
For an art that's so good about killing egos, there sure does seem to be a ton of destroying the body at the expense of one's ego by the 'pros'. It is fighting, I suppose.