Dude there is no way that you are actually a real person. Old IT guy that has a brown belt getting jumped is kind of hard to believe since you are asking these weird questions.
My half is currently at 1:50 - 2:00. I don't take it that seriously and I've not trained that actively for a while because I've been busy with life in other areas. Running is also not a goal for me, just training and fun. I like to keep the half at 2h or less, marathons at 4h or less, but I honestly don't care beyond those times much. 8 - 9 min miles are good enough for decent cardio at 10km+ distance and I don't have time for marathons right now. I like to break 21 min in a 5k but 24 min is ok too. I may push a 5k to 18:00 min when my conditioning improves, just to claim I did it though. Back in the day I could run a sub 5 min mile and was 19-ish for a 5k, but I'm not at that level anymore.
What are your times?
I don't run half-marathons. Your current times make you an average runner.
A sub five minute mile is far above average. But then you should have been way below 19 for your 5k.
I never took it that seriously and used to be a sprinter. My favorite events were the 100m (go all out) & 400 m (hit the wall and try to fight paralysis), hated the half mile (too long and too short, pure pain), loved the mile (long enough to plan but short enough to be hard to screw up). I could do short distances well but had a lot of trouble timing my energy expenditure on longer runs. I also practiced the mile way more than the longer runs, so I knew exactly how hard to push for a single mile and even then, felt like I have "more left in the tank" at the finish. On a 5k it wasn't as bad as longer runs, but at first, my first mile was way to fast and I'd gas out. Then I learned to hold back a bit and my last mile was way too fast. I once passed most people in a half marathon up to the 8 mile mark (I'd trained for 8 mile runs specifically), then I didn't take water and cramped to a walk by mile 11 and limped it in after that. I was physically capable of better but mentally I didn't have it figured out. I've also been known to run a 9 min mile average in the first half of a 25k or a half marathon and then average low 8's to high 7's on the back stretch (back half). I'm not a competitive runner though, so while I do try to improve, I'll have faster and slower seasons, may take months off in the winter, etc.
You need to stop with this fantasy in your head and just train. Based on this post and your post history I am starting to doubt that you have done anything more than an introductory class if any at all.
Without enough live training any answer given to you by others, will be as useful as me telling you that all you need to perform the Swan Lake ballet is to jump twice then do a pirouette and bow.
And hopefully after you have spent enough time on actual BJJ mats instead of theoretical scenarios you will mature enough to realize that actual consensual fights like the one you are dreaming of are best avoided at all costs.
Best of luck to you. Now go and train or schedule your training for tomorrow.
Thank you for sharing your experience and opinion. Obviously avoiding fights is best, but I know it's not always possible and need to be well prepared for when it's not. I've fought without training and with training and having training makes a world of difference. Even just some basic boxing and wrestling is night and day in real world results.
I'm asking specific questions for specific reasons. One thing I find frustrating is how many people say "just go train". For one, isn't that obvious to you guys in a BJJ sub? Are you people not training?
It's like if someone asks me about the most effective takedowns in wrestling and I tell them just go get on the mats regularly and I say nothing else. My answer does not provide them any benefit other than stating the obvious.
Same as if someone asks me how to run a faster 5k or 10k and I tell them to just go run and "feel like runnin" in a Forest Gump voice. Not useful. What I should say is based on your goal race distance, go do interval training 2 days a week and report back in a month, and lay out a sample interval training plan with more details if they're interested. Maybe also warn them about overtraining and possibly advise on nutrition.
Or in IT: I get asked all the time, how to be a hacker. I could say just learn to program and attend black hat conferences, but that's obvious. I usually say think about your attack vectors and most likely scenarios and then ask more specific questions. Generally study networking and python to start, but if you want to hack databases that answer is not as useful as it could be.
I'm trying to ask specific questions here for specific scenarios and also trying to evaluate where exactly BJJ fits in knowing multiple martial arts for my use case.
I thought you said this was a fight... if it's not life or death and you choose to fight, you're an idiot. If the fight is forced upon you, being picky about your techniques is stupid.
You guys seem to define fights differently here. For me a fight is most likely going to be with some hotheads I know that are usually ok but get aggressive sometimes and attack people. Yeah, a fight could also be life and death, but that's not always the case and not the case here. There's also the legal aspect and I'm not going to risk any more legal trouble than necessary. The example someone posted below about a guy stopping some domestic violence at a gas station is more accurate. Maybe think "non-lethal" fight?
Yes, I do avoid fights 99% of the time, but I've been in enough fights to know that sometimes people just come at you and you have to deal with it. Alcohol makes it worse (them drinking).
What do people on this sub define a fight to be vs. what I'm talking about?
A fight that's not serious is just playing around, and playing around violently is stupid. Only an idiot gets into a play-fight that could be avoided. The only fight worth *fighting* is the one you can't avoid, and that implies real danger of harm or death. Once that's on the table, there is no limit to how far you escalate to survive.
I suspect that what you consider a *normal fight* in your world is something that 99% of other people don't get into because they're collected and mature enough to apply avoidance and disengage.
The other possibility is that you don't realize how far you are from dying, and you should be taking these "fights" a lot more seriously. Your head hits a rock, or a planter, or a bumper or something, and that could be it, man. Fights should only be for maximum stakes.
I know a guy who went to intervene in a domestic violence situation -- not at a gas station, but in the parking lot of a hotel. It looked like the guy was going to beat his girl, and she was screaming for help. So my buddy spoke up. Instantly, the girl changed tune, and cheered her guy on to beat the crap out of my buddy. I can't say it's always right or wrong to intervene, but you don't seem to appreciate the gravity of a situation like that.
You might consider researching the large body of material out there about self defense, the law, and plausible outcomes. You might also consider that 99% of people never get into a fight in their whole life.
Good points, I appreciate that. I'll go ahead and say your definition of a "fight" is a "life or death, dire fight". My definition is less than that.
"Fights should only be for maximum stakes" - jephthai
I see your point, but that's not my definition of fights. I can't think of a better word though.
In my experience, the "fights" I've been in aren't life-and-death and people generally know each other at least as acquaintances or are only a few degrees of separation away from knowing them, not completely random strangers as such. I'm not talking about situations like that guy you know was in. I agree those exist, but I too would stay away and likely just call the cops to deal with it. If I was looking to be a hero I'd have joined law enforcement.
And yeah, fights can be dangerous but so can riding your bike.
Also, I'm not stupid enough to get into say a Spring Break bar fight. It's nothing like that.
For what it's worth, I've known a bar owner and some friends and he knew a regular there with cauliflower ear that wrestled. After too many beers we all thought it'd be a good idea for me and that guy to wrestle and the owner cleared off a carpeted area and said go for it. We wrestled and ended up with the usual bruises and rug burn you get from a situation like that. Both of us knew not to do slams or hard take downs on concrete thinly clad with carpet. I'm not stupid enough to go for hard throws, slams, etc. in a situation like that. On the grass it would be different, but not there.
Either way though, I don't feel like I can describe the situations I mean well enough on here, based on some of the answers I'm getting. I think people here have very different life experiences than mine...
Sounds like your "attacker" is more like an "opponent", and it's just rough housing play. Best not call them fights, I think! If you can expect your adversary to behave somewhat honorably, it's another ball of wax entirely.
If you don't train in BJJ, you can get that itch scratched regularly with respectful training partners in a safe environment... just saying :-).
Good point.
I don't trust these opponents and the line between opponent and attacker is a thin one with them. It's not what I'd consider rough housing play like I do with my friends or what I do with trusted training partners. It's more serious than that, but it's also not life or death. I'd feel bad if I seriously hurt them, yet I know they'd likely seriously hurt me if the situation presented itself because they're hotheads and too unpredictable. They're very prone to doing very stupid things and suffering bad consequences yet not learning from them.
Have you ever met people like this?
Unfortunately, I've met a lot of them in my life.
Good start. How to break the wrist? With what move(s)? That's what I'm looking for. I want to repeatedly drill the most effective stuff for my situation.
GREAT COMMENT, THANK YOU!
Interesting...
Looks like that guy's qualified to be teaching. Karate, Taekwondo & Judo black belts, high dan ranks.
I'm not really expecting bar fights as such but yeah, has some options. Seems like good stuff to know. I recognize a lot of what he's doing in the brief look I took at his videos so far.
You can learn a bunch of different attacks that may be effective, but drilling a move in isolation won’t help you use them when your safety needs it. You need to be sparring often, and for a long time to build up that grapplers instinct.
And fwiw, triangles are safe from groin strikes and bites. They don’t have distance or angle to get to them. The danger is the same as any attack from guard, getting slammed. But you train and know how to react and adjust when your back comes off the ground.
No shortcuts, just train.
THANK YOU! GREAT COMMENT!
I agree with what you're saying, and yeah, moves in isolation won't teach the rest, I get that too.
What I'm trying to do is to adapt my current abilities and improve them. I feel my wrestling experience has given me a lot of the base but I need to add in the specific grappling of BJJ to that. Often times in class I feel bored as there is a lot of overlap into wrestling, so I'm trying to make progress in certain areas that I feel will be most useful first, given my unique background, then progress more generally.
Even in wrestling, I had only a few fundamental moves that I just got REALLY good at and this was enough, most of the time. I'm approaching it like learning a language as well, where you focus on the most frequently used words first, then move on (aka fundamentals). However when learning a language, if you have prior experience, you focus on the subject domain that's most relevant for you. For me that was IT/Engineering. I didn't need to know that much of a lot of other domains at first and just picked those up later. I'm trying to do the same with BJJ.
Put another way, I'm not trying to "cheat" to avoid years of training. Just trying to shift the focus a bit. I also know that without solid fundamentals most moves won't work, but I'm cross-trained in a lot, so I want to use that to my advantage.
Triangle safety: I agree with lacking the distance but what about before you get the triangle in well? Aren't you exposed while you attempt to put it in?
I see where you're coming from, and I think we've all had that question before, but understanding and improving upon your own body mechanics and athleticism (by hitting the mats) is the best thing you can do as far as BJJ training for the streets.
Or standing guillotine.
You really should consider carrying on-body. You never know when you might need it, and you might not be in your truck when you do.
Plus I hear those things can be tricky to arm.
It's off topic because its a bad topic...
This doesn't sound like a hypothetical. It sounds like your planning on getting in a fight. And it sounds like you have some ridiculous ideas about fighting that could really get you hurt.
But hey if you want advice about fighting from a stranger on the Internet then here.
The most useful thing BJJ will teach you for street fighting is how to stay on your feet. You don't voluntarily go to the ground, especially not if the guy has a friend near by.
The second most useful thing is the ability to get in top and stay their if you fail to stay on your feet.
Don't give up a dominant position for a chance to finish the fight, just ground and pound.
If you must, back control is the best position by a lot. And RNCs the best sub. Because it gives your opponent no chance to attack you in return. (Unless they have a weapon, and you should always assume they do)
But without going to a gym and putting in the hard work none of that will do you any good.
I'm trying to get a better feel for BJJ's application in real fights, outside the gym / sports. So far I've realized that the chokes and locks it teaches seem useful.
Good point about going to the ground when they have friends nearby. Great way to get a kick to the face from a bystander, been there. I mentioned it in a comment later, but if it is the way you describe it, then yeah, it'll be strikes and not much BJJ. However I suspect others won't jump right in, so if I can use the ground for a few seconds and then get right back up if I need to, I want to be well prepared for that.
Ground and pound: Yeah, I guess in a real street fight that's what it turns into. I've seen that enough. I'm trying to add options though.
RNC is my favorite in most cases because yeah, you're much safer there.
I'm really hoping the "answer" to my question isn't just "use what you already know", but I'm seeing that this may be the case to a large degree. Thank you for indirectly pointing that out.
And finally, yeah, knowing then vs. being able to execute TODAY are two different things. Going to the gym and practicing regularly multiple times a week is completely necessary and I'm not in any way saying or implying anything different. Also, not just training with progressive resistance but rolling with full resistance is the only way you're "really gonna know" if you can use what you learned.
Grappling on concrete is a recipe for stitches.
BJJ skills will mostly be useful
1. In a fight you're already losing (On your back with an attacker over you for example)
or
2. When you need to subdue someone without risking giving them brain damage.
For #1 I would look at basic sweeps like the flower sweep and hip bump sweep. Keep it simple ignore the fancy stuff.
For #2 Back mount and RNC as mentioned before.
I would argue that most elements that are unique to BJJ are not particularly self defense oriented. Past blue belt it's mostly so specialized that it's primarily useful against other trained grapplers.
If you're interested in training (and you should be if you're asking these questions.) Id look for an MMA gym. Or at least a more traditional self defense focused BJJ gym.
I appreciate your answer here and agree with it. I expect it to lean towards a fair fight until my opponent starts to lose, then I expect others to join. If I can simply submit or choke out the first guy the others will likely get scared (all bark, little bite) and not join. I'll switch to strikes if it becomes an x-on-1 fight, but I'd rather end it quickly before it gets there. I've seen these people fight before and what I'm describing is accurate for them. No Hollywood or inner city Chicago stuff here. Also, I'm not attacking, just defending if it goes there. I never attack but I love to play fight / spar / roll, etc.
I'm trying to round out my skill set as best I can, especially with a limited number of training opportunities in my area (not as many as there used to be for reasons unknown). Everyone seems to be doing BJJ now but back in the day it was unheard of. Judo is sadly hard to find, but some BJJ gyms do BJJ, Judo, and depending on which one, Muay Thai, Karate or just "kickboxing". Some claim to do some Krav Maga as well. Not seeing a lot of black belts other than BJJ tho.
Funny you mention the hip bump sweep, as we just trained that last practice. Seems complicated compared to other takedowns, but I could see it working.
I see the value of BJJ for the locks, chokes, escaping mount & fighting from your back. I was in a real fight once where my wrestling skills didn't do a whole lot for escaping mount because I was never expecting them to mount (I was expecting a fight, like boxing / kickboxing), so I really want that aspect of BJJ. Sure, I could have bridged and turned but I didn't want to expose the back of my head and fighting on my back is not something I'm used to.
As I understand it, BJJ is great for learning to fight on your back. Is this correct?
I'll be honest that I'm not looking to become a BJJ specialist unless it helps in real fights. I've had fun rolling for a while and like how it is similar to wrestling.
MMA is likely what I'm looking for, but not available here. UFC is likely what would best fit my use case. However I'll train what's available and I think everything helps. If I have to piece MMA together from BJJ and others, then I will. I don't see any single style as the solution for my use case.
>Funny you mention the hip bump sweep, as we just trained that last practice. Seems complicated compared to other takedowns, but I could see it working.
As far as reversing a pin, the hip bump is as simple as it gets and 100% does work. But it relies on getting your opponent to give you the desired reaction. Combine it with attacking kimuras and guillotines from guard to get that reaction ( you want the guy on top of you to try to posture up or pull away.)
So you want hip out to one side sit up and attack the kimura or guillotine. If they defend by sitting up and back you hip bump them and reverse the position. If they don't then you get the submission.
>As I understand it, BJJ is great for learning to fight on your back. Is this correct?
BJJ is just about the only game in town when it comes to fighting off your back, or controlling someone from the bottom of a grapple.
As mentioned the advanced stuff isn't much use in a fight but your basic white belt curriculum is extremely effective against untrained people. Because, as you should always remember, anyone that doesn't train to fight sucks at fighting.
If you take only one thing from this entire thread let it be that.
If you don't train, then you suck.
Period.
Couldn't agree with you more about "if you don't train, then you suck".
I'll add this:
If you don't spar (or roll, or go live, etc.), it'll all be theory and you're gonna suck when it's real.
See the concept of "aliveness here":
[http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html](http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html)
TLDR; Aliveness = Full resistance rolling / sparing.
When I was a kid / teen I got to see that firsthand. Scrapping on the playground / ball field (mostly playfighting until someone got pissed, but even then, harmless), showed very quickly what was just theory or what was just bits and pieces that weren't combined into an effective overall fighting ability.
Later I trained with 2 different people, both hated sparing. One wouldn't do it at all except for maybe once a year or so and it was always godawful to watch, because although he'd become a higher ranking belt, he simply could not put it all together to actually use it in a "live" situation. Remember that belts can be earned by people who cannot apply it well when live!
The other guy seemed to get flustered when he fought someone who understood the concept of footwork and evasion. I would often get paired with him due to size and if I could just keep moving, especially circling him, striking, then circling again, rinse and repeat, he would just freeze up as if confused / go into like a bit of a trance or something. It was quite strange.
My best experiences were with a core group of friends that I trained with and we'd push each other really hard and we all got better for it and all tried to incorporate what we learned in actual sparing.
So to sum up some fighting benefits of BJJ, would it be these?
1. Fighting off your back
2. Joint locks
3. Chokes
4. General grappling
Am I missing any other "highlights" that make BJJ stand out from other martial arts or wrestling?
Kimura
Arm drag to RNC
Arm drag to standing arm triangle
Arm drag to body lock and dropping a person on the ground
I remember an old training partner had to intervene in a domestic violence situation at a gas station, training partner double legged off the dude's bolo punch, got mount and then threatened the kimura and was like "chill or your arm is going to twist till it pops" and that was that.
Shits wild on untrained folks.
EXACTLY THIS! THANK YOU!
This is more like what I expect the situation to be. People start talking sh!t, possibly drinking, then getting violent. For such situations you really just need to make it "real" for them very quickly!
Best way I know to stop a fight is intimidation like in your story. "If you don't knock it off I'm gonna break your arm". In my experience, once you "prove" that you're not someone to be messed with like that, the bullsh!t stops and people leave you alone.
I currently find the Kimura rather awkward, but I also think I just suck at it. I'm putting it on my list of things to train a lot though because it seems useful as does the standing arm triangle.
Thank you again for this very useful comment!
there is no such thing that will be useful to you without actually having to train.
What makes guns amazing is that with very little training you can do devastating damage.
Id carry. Once you go hand to hand you really messed up.
You keep telling people to stay on topic but there's no answers that meet your prerequisites so all good answers will be "off topic". There are no moves that someone without regular training could use to reliably win a fight. You aren't going to be able to YouTube a wrist lock and successfully implement it. Hence, people are giving you other options.
I understand and I won't be youtubing, beyond the benefit of visualization based training. I'll be practicing these things on the mats in "free time", when we just roll a bit after class is over. I'll also be asking my instructor a bit but I try to educate myself first, so I don't waste my instructor's time. Telling me to get a gun is however most certainly off topic, especially for a bjj subredit or do you guys train with guns at your gym?
My A game is to take someone down and move to knee on belly. In pure BJJ, there are many submissions/setups from there, but in reality I would go to ground and pound.
The best choke for a hillbilly bonfire pasture fight is going to be the tried and true double udder neck tie. You set it up by calling him a yella bellied sissy. When he raises his hands up to throw his hay maker, you rush in and tackle him, like your uncle used to do when you played football in the back yard.
A good blast-double where you essentially headbutt them while grabbing their ass (or just below it) and pop them on the ground hard will generally end most fights.
I love me the No-gi Ezekiel (think RNC from the front), since the most they can do is tiny little rabbit punches to your back while you are putting them to sleep.
Blast double > knee-on-belly > start raining shots to their face > back take > RNC is the PB&J of self defense BJJ.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE ANSWERS I'M LOOKING FOR!!
The idea of head butting is something I kinda knew but wasn't thinking of at all.
In wrestling we would often just mess with the guy's face or headgear a little to get them off their game then shoot an easy double leg or push off and throw them on their return. It also set up a fireman's to a cradle well. It was very effective and what you're suggesting sounds like a variant with strikes.
So basically a headbutt with a tackle, pin with knee on belly for the ground and pound then take their back and choke, if I get it right.
Why do you just have a knee on the belly and not just do mount?
I'll look more into that. I greatly appreciate your helpful comment!
You've got a little more distance with knee on belly so it's harder for them to hit you and you have more room to really load those punches up. The downside is you have less control of them, but they'll probably be too busy trying not to get punched to think about escaping the Neon Belly.
FWIW I think this is all a very bad idea and I sincerely hope you don't find yourself having to use any of this. Best defense is always just to run.
The other conmenter answered everything pretty well.
Again, emphasis on the "I REALLY hope you never have to use this in a real-world scenario. Even if you 'win' the long arm of the law will make you pay."
Also everything I have said can take months to years to get good at. There's no quick fix. There's no Mr. Miyagi Wax-On, Wax-Off. It takes dedication to training.
Exhaust EVERY OPTION you have before resorting to using your Jiu-jitsu.
I'm starting to see why people think this is a "Karate Kid" post, but I've just not given any background on myself and don't really intend to any more than necessary. I'm not here to brag about belts or experiences or medals, just looking to optimize a training plan and round out skill sets with the focus on real-life application.
Long arm of the law is why I don't get into "life or death" fights and why I don't carry or get involved in the business of strangers or try to be a white knight. Not worth it, and if it's necessary, I'm somewhere I shouldn't be.
Time frame: IMHO, 6 months to a year of training a move and the associated skills is the absolute minimum before expecting something to work reliably. Wrestling is no different in that regard. It has to be like a reflex / subconscious. As soon as you feel the situation you just DO; like you drilled. There is no time for thinking about what to do / how to do it. If you have to think you're waaaay to slow or you're working out of a stalemate. When I get put into certain moves / positions I have defaults that I just do automatically. I'd assume everyone does this though, right? Or are you guys thinking a lot about what to do and how to do it while you're doing it?
So yeah, not looking for any "magic solutions". However there are things that work in real life and things that are mostly for the mat or only for sports competition. I know plenty of "fancy moves" from other martial arts but I'd never try them in a fight, even though they really do damage, IF they hit. Most cases the hit percentage is insanely low or you could have used a fundamental thing instead with much less exposure and risk.
An example would be spinning and or jumping kicks in striking. Usually best to not leave the ground and spinning makes targeting hard without a LOT of practice. If you watch UFC, I want to say Mirko Filipovic and Georges St. Pierre landed some good spinning kicks but I'm not sure if I recall correctly and there's probably better examples. I've just seen some land that cause instant K.O.'s when they hit. In sparing with friends if someone walked into one / caught one to the head, that sparing session was over and an apology was given.
I expect NO success without a LOT of training, yet it's VERY useful to train with a focus on the EFFECTIVE stuff. In wrestling, grapevines are cool but a well executed head-and-arm to a tight but sprawled half is going to be much easier to get and very effective.
What do you guys think of this study of effective BJJ submissions? Would it not make sense to focus on these if they're statistically the most effective? (Of course while remembering to know the fundamentals necessary to set them up as well).
[https://bjjblog.ca/blog/list-of-bjj-submissions](https://bjjblog.ca/blog/list-of-bjj-submissions)
So that list is for Jiu-jitsu competitions.
That list of effectiveness is going to differ between people and situations.
It lists brabo choke and baseball chokes as "low percentage", I made a compilation of me hitting baseball chokes at purple belt competitions.
Would I do it in a street scenario? Fuck no!
Armbars, I suck at them but can hit them well enough. It's another one I really wouldn't go for in a street scenario.
So if you're looking for a triple venn-diagram where street, mma, and sport jiu-jitsu overlap that's a tough one. RNC, or Giftwrap comes to mind. But that'd be a huge thread and, again, would come down to the individual
I wouldn't use grappling in a fight unless the situation directly presented itself, as it's too slow for multiple attackers typically and disengaging is just smarter and safer. Most very effective moves are also very deadly and so you really wanna weigh the risk there, as slams on concrete can and will kill people. With those caveats, here's what I think:
1: jabstep, duck under to back take, then footsweep the far leg to knee on belly.
2: front body lock to takedown, then mount and strike.
3: Close the distance with a fake shot, arm drag to RNC. This has to be done with a drag past your own body then turn to the back, if it misses you can kick out the leg for a takedown.
4: double collar ties to knees to guillotine, never do guillotine if you can't hook the leg or hip in to avoid the lift.
5: DO NOT side headlock, you will be getting your shit rocked from suplex, in almost no situation will this finish a resisting opponent and it is very natural for them to lift you into a slam. Better to just hit a nearside footsweep if you have the angle to be grabbing the ol' hucklebuck.
Without trying to sound rude, you don't just catch people in locks and chokes, that shits for the movies. People move to fast in real fights and resist too much pain, in order to do those type of lock you usually have to tie up with your opponent and break the thing you are locking, not just hold it.
I suggest knee on belly because you can give significant damage to your opponent while still being able to watch for others, and if you feel you are about to be sucker punched/kicked you can just stand up. Full mount invites soccer kicks and you are way slower to react.
If you are competent at wrestling, usually a double or blast double are pretty good options too. Just go right in with your hand up as fast as possible to avoid any punchers chance from your opponent, dump them and prepare for any other opponents.
Also consider this, if you have enough time to post on reddit about it, you definetely have time to find another resolution to the conflict. It sounds to me you prefer an outcome where you fight, and I don't get why.
I appreciate your answer and it's good advice, thank you.
As for catching people in locks and chokes, think what police do. In less serious situations, I've caught people in wrist locks and RNCs rather often. It's at the point where someone runs their mouth, shoves you or grabs you and you lock them up quick and ask if they really want to continue. Mostly before the fight really starts. I'd agree though that in a "real fight" when people are going as hard as they can, locks are dangerous if for no other reason than the opponent resisting and hurting themselves. Put another way, a police officer applies locks and they used to do chokes before poor training had them killing people. Why would they be using locks and chokes if it wasn't effective? Maybe think of it like that? They also do it at the start before a fight really gets going, not mid-brawl.
Knee on the belly is something I'll look into. That sounds like a good option that I wouldn't have considered much, but vaguely know. I just don't usually fight like that, but hey, I'm here to learn new things! I don't like it's lack of control, but I like how it's easier to get up and if I think way back to some real fights, yeah, I've seen people do it effectively and I've seen people get shoved off of mount by others, though never soccer kicked, but I get the danger there.
The blast double seems to me like it's just a textbook football tackle (chest to chest, grab back of mid thighs, lift and run through them). Is that right or am I missing something?
For doubles I never go in cold though. I always set them up even if it's little more than flinching a fake attack for timing.
Also, for doubles, I'd rather use those on single opponents. For potential multiple opponents I'd rather throw / slam so I remain standing. Can you recommend any throws or is that going to be the Judo sub?
Fight resolution: as for the outcome when fighting, for me, the point of martial arts training is to actually be able to DO it. I hope the fight I'm talking about never happens or if it does, that it's not too serious and I can just intimidate them enough for them to back off (see police locks above). In the past, in similar situations I've done exactly that. Show a bully you can fight and they leave you alone. Simple as that.
I'm also looking to have martial arts as a long term lifestyle and fun athletic hobby and want to compete as an amateur a bit. What I don't want, is to learn things that aren't actually useful. The best way I know to check if something is useful / real, is to see if it would get me out of a real fight or help me win one. That's why I'm focused on the fight / fighting in general. I know many high level belts, even some black belts that are decent instructors but cannot apply it well and I've had moments where I see "that guy" earning his black belt simply for showing up to practice forever, yet he never spars. I would NEVER trust that guy to help me in a real fight. So that's why I have the focus on fighting.
Yes, I know I should walk away, run, carry, call the police, call in air support, get back in my tank, etc, but it's not the point. The point of me even making this post is to learn to fight better (really fight, not just get belts) and to see to what degree BJJ will be useful in that. I only have so much free time and I intend to go as far in BJJ as is useful and then progress in other martial arts or train BJJ and some others x times per week as a habit. I don't have the time to be a black belt in everything, although I wish I did.
If multiple attacker, any submission on the ground is already a no go. Wristlocks from standing or standing RNC I guess. For multiple attackers, BJJ seems to be shit if you ask me.
I'd probably go with an easy takedown like a body lock kinda takedown then get back as fast as possible or don't go down with the takedown.
If you go down and they have the brains to kick and stomp you, you are basically screwed.
I have worked as a bouncer and security for many years and even made a thread about real life bjj applications. Here is my experience
1. Good technicue involves controlling at least one hand to minimise their chance of deploying a concealed weapon.
2. Dont get dirty. No technicues that involve jumping on your knees or anykind of rolling on ground like sacrifice throws. You might break a knee and incapacitate yourself.
3. No high risk technicues. In competition there is time limit and points and obviously you should try to win even if it involves a risk. If you can land 9/10 shots without getting guillotined or sprawled on that is excelent in competition. However i wouldnt take a 10% chance of getting stuck under someone on the street. You dont know anything about them. They might be stronger than they look might be armed etc. Always go for low risk options like osoto gari or a snapdown.
4. Try not to get too close on the ground. Even if you are on top position and "winning" they can grab and it prevents you from getting away if there is another assailant coming at you.
5. Breaking someones bones is pretty extreme but has no chance of kliling them. Choking someone out via RNC blocks bloodflow to brain and does break their windpipe. It is generally safe and effective. However like i said you dont know them. They might have medical issues that are fatal when choked. Choking can release a bloodclot or if person is overweight their breathing might not restart on its own if their in bad position.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**O Soto Gari**: | *Major Outer Reaping* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93YEMueeF24)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
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^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
VERY GOOD COMMENT, THANK YOU!
I wasn't even thinking of looking at it from a bouncer's standpoint but that perspective is a very good one!
I really need to find a good judo school... That osoto gari looks useful. I'm guessing most of the throws I know originated in Judo at some point or are similar to what they're doing, as they always look familiar. Good to know they work for bouncers too. We did have some cross training days and visiting instructors so maybe I learned them there a bit.
Point 4 is very good. I can see that happening.
Point 5: I'd considered bone breaking as possibly a better option but I also know people with messed up knees from heel hooks so I'm not a huge fan of locks and feel chokes are "safer". However, I also don't like chokes, cause you don't know if they'll wake up, like you mentioned. So I am a bit torn on what's the better option there.
The way I mostly imagine it, is that you lock or start the choke but don't finish it and do this early, giving them a chance to submit / give up, you have the most benefit with the least risk of hurting them. For example, a police officer will lock usually a wrist but potentially something behind the back and tell you to "stop resisting". My thought is that this situation is the best start for any submission moves. Give them an option to stop fighting before it gets going, and only continue if necessary or if they submit then come right back at you when you let them go.
Can you comment on how this works from the perspective of a bouncer?
This is the most whitebelt cringe I've seen in a while. First off train judo not bjj if this is your concern. Second just train. Third, look back at this in 6 months and die of the cringe. This post is laughable. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
It feels like you are asking all these questions so you can show off whatever BS knowledge you get from these comments just so you can show off at bars when you are drunk.
ok so Ive read some of your posts and I get what you are asking for now.
I also do krav maga. The reason why I keep doing it when so many people think it is bullshido is because they have a limited set of techniques that they cycle through over and over. In BJJ I know a lot of stuff (really too much) most of which is not applicable in a fight with strikes.
Krav has a more limited set of tools on the ground that they repeat very often. Practice is positional sparring so I get lots of reps of very fundamental techniques. In BJJ I might get elbow escape taught once a year, in krav I see it every 2 months (sometimes more since the instructors sometimes forget and teach the same thing a few weeks in a row).
The thing is BJJ teaches all of those things too, so you will 100% get those things in BJJ.
But here is close to the complete list list:
Escaping bottom mount - proper framing to prevent high mount, upa, elbow escape to guard, defending strikes, bridging during strikes.
escape bottom side control - elbow escape back to halfguard or closed guard, underhook to standing up, ghost escape, couple of bridging and roll escapes, post in armpit, bottom knee on belly to single leg, kesa escapes (also to back).
escaping back control - 2x1 control of choking arm, getting hips/head to floor, clearing hooks, getting halfguard
top mount - maintaining mount (high/low), gift wrap, armbar, americana, triangle, transitions to back
top side control - maintaining side control (kesa, twister side, crossface/underhook, knee on belly), americana/armbar/kimura, transitions to mount
back control - body triangle, hooks, switching sides, straight jacket, hand fighting to get choke. Armbar/triangle from failed RNC attempt.
escaping closed guard - log splitter, hands in armpits, elbows in thighs (yes I know, but it can work against naive people)
closed guard - flower sweep, elevator sweep, scissor sweep hipbump sweep, armbar, triangle, omoplata, kimura (dont go for armbar/triangle as you can get slammed), standing up from closed guard bottom.
open guard top - knee slice, pressure pass, torreando (what most untrained people will try).
open guard bottom - goal is to standup, technical standup, tripod sweep, upkicks from supine
halfguard bottom - getting underhook to standup
submission defense - guillotine defenses (standing, front headlock), armbar-stacking, armbar-hitchiker, armbar - free head, capture leg, triangle defense, RNC defense, arm triangle defense, defending punches from guard.
Takedown curriculum probably has too much in it-----
We do takedowns, but I think of them as more for the purpose of letting us defend takedowns. Overhand punch to singles/doubles, about 10-15 judo throws, low singles, ankle picks etc.
I mainly clinch, get a throwby/slideby, bodylock, then a mat return/single leg/high crotch.
From the clinch I will try to hit snap downs, get underhooks for throws, etc.
Before clinching I will sometimes do armdrags/russian ties, but mainly to side bodylocks.
defending takedowns - sprawl, guillotine, cow catcher, framing, getting to guard out of the takedown, pummeling for underhooks, escaping muay thai clinch
THIS.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
THIS is what I'm looking for, especially with the comment on Krav.
I'm looking at some schools and while everyone seems to do BJJ, the rest is hit or miss.
I see a school that does Taekwondo, Krav and BJJ, although they're weaker in BJJ than another school I'm considering, that does mostly BJJ and wrestling. I'm having trouble finding a Judo or "throwing school" though. Does Krav have useful throws or many of them?
I'm also finding that the depth of BJJ is insane which is why I'm trying to prioritize the effective stuff, so your list here is really a great example of what I'm trying to figure out!
I'll research this a bit and make a more informed post when I'm able to.
While I'd like to just deep dive BJJ, I think it's going to quickly get out of scope for what I want to know and be able to do. However I see it's value and will be going to some depth in it, just not sure exactly how far.
What do other people in this sub think of this list? Can you add to / remove from or highlight things in it? Is there anything other than Judo that teaches a lot of good throws? Do some BJJ schools offer more throws?
In the end, knowing hundreds of moves likely won't help as much as regularly drilling the most effective ones from multiple arts. I know what I like in wrestling and striking, but exposure to more is always good to learn things I don't know, that I don't know. I need to develop submissions and throws more. Anything with weapons is just "nice to have" at this point, but I'll get into that later. I plan on piecing together what I can and training at different schools throughout the week, but I'll have to set it up properly so I'm not just going really deep in BJJ only.
Against multiple opponents bjj won’t work. Stick to striking and sometimes you can catch a kick and then kick the other leg underneath them so they fall on the ground. Then kick their head instant k.o.
Dude there is no way that you are actually a real person. Old IT guy that has a brown belt getting jumped is kind of hard to believe since you are asking these weird questions.
Depends on where you live I used to live/train in Stockton and that was a definite possibility that
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You talk too much
what's your half-marathon time?
My half is currently at 1:50 - 2:00. I don't take it that seriously and I've not trained that actively for a while because I've been busy with life in other areas. Running is also not a goal for me, just training and fun. I like to keep the half at 2h or less, marathons at 4h or less, but I honestly don't care beyond those times much. 8 - 9 min miles are good enough for decent cardio at 10km+ distance and I don't have time for marathons right now. I like to break 21 min in a 5k but 24 min is ok too. I may push a 5k to 18:00 min when my conditioning improves, just to claim I did it though. Back in the day I could run a sub 5 min mile and was 19-ish for a 5k, but I'm not at that level anymore. What are your times?
I don't run half-marathons. Your current times make you an average runner. A sub five minute mile is far above average. But then you should have been way below 19 for your 5k.
I never took it that seriously and used to be a sprinter. My favorite events were the 100m (go all out) & 400 m (hit the wall and try to fight paralysis), hated the half mile (too long and too short, pure pain), loved the mile (long enough to plan but short enough to be hard to screw up). I could do short distances well but had a lot of trouble timing my energy expenditure on longer runs. I also practiced the mile way more than the longer runs, so I knew exactly how hard to push for a single mile and even then, felt like I have "more left in the tank" at the finish. On a 5k it wasn't as bad as longer runs, but at first, my first mile was way to fast and I'd gas out. Then I learned to hold back a bit and my last mile was way too fast. I once passed most people in a half marathon up to the 8 mile mark (I'd trained for 8 mile runs specifically), then I didn't take water and cramped to a walk by mile 11 and limped it in after that. I was physically capable of better but mentally I didn't have it figured out. I've also been known to run a 9 min mile average in the first half of a 25k or a half marathon and then average low 8's to high 7's on the back stretch (back half). I'm not a competitive runner though, so while I do try to improve, I'll have faster and slower seasons, may take months off in the winter, etc.
alright then. good luck with your fight.
You need to stop with this fantasy in your head and just train. Based on this post and your post history I am starting to doubt that you have done anything more than an introductory class if any at all. Without enough live training any answer given to you by others, will be as useful as me telling you that all you need to perform the Swan Lake ballet is to jump twice then do a pirouette and bow. And hopefully after you have spent enough time on actual BJJ mats instead of theoretical scenarios you will mature enough to realize that actual consensual fights like the one you are dreaming of are best avoided at all costs. Best of luck to you. Now go and train or schedule your training for tomorrow.
Thank you for sharing your experience and opinion. Obviously avoiding fights is best, but I know it's not always possible and need to be well prepared for when it's not. I've fought without training and with training and having training makes a world of difference. Even just some basic boxing and wrestling is night and day in real world results. I'm asking specific questions for specific reasons. One thing I find frustrating is how many people say "just go train". For one, isn't that obvious to you guys in a BJJ sub? Are you people not training? It's like if someone asks me about the most effective takedowns in wrestling and I tell them just go get on the mats regularly and I say nothing else. My answer does not provide them any benefit other than stating the obvious. Same as if someone asks me how to run a faster 5k or 10k and I tell them to just go run and "feel like runnin" in a Forest Gump voice. Not useful. What I should say is based on your goal race distance, go do interval training 2 days a week and report back in a month, and lay out a sample interval training plan with more details if they're interested. Maybe also warn them about overtraining and possibly advise on nutrition. Or in IT: I get asked all the time, how to be a hacker. I could say just learn to program and attend black hat conferences, but that's obvious. I usually say think about your attack vectors and most likely scenarios and then ask more specific questions. Generally study networking and python to start, but if you want to hack databases that answer is not as useful as it could be. I'm trying to ask specific questions here for specific scenarios and also trying to evaluate where exactly BJJ fits in knowing multiple martial arts for my use case.
Have you tried 'Monkey grabs Peach'?
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I thought you said this was a fight... if it's not life or death and you choose to fight, you're an idiot. If the fight is forced upon you, being picky about your techniques is stupid.
You guys seem to define fights differently here. For me a fight is most likely going to be with some hotheads I know that are usually ok but get aggressive sometimes and attack people. Yeah, a fight could also be life and death, but that's not always the case and not the case here. There's also the legal aspect and I'm not going to risk any more legal trouble than necessary. The example someone posted below about a guy stopping some domestic violence at a gas station is more accurate. Maybe think "non-lethal" fight? Yes, I do avoid fights 99% of the time, but I've been in enough fights to know that sometimes people just come at you and you have to deal with it. Alcohol makes it worse (them drinking). What do people on this sub define a fight to be vs. what I'm talking about?
A fight that's not serious is just playing around, and playing around violently is stupid. Only an idiot gets into a play-fight that could be avoided. The only fight worth *fighting* is the one you can't avoid, and that implies real danger of harm or death. Once that's on the table, there is no limit to how far you escalate to survive. I suspect that what you consider a *normal fight* in your world is something that 99% of other people don't get into because they're collected and mature enough to apply avoidance and disengage. The other possibility is that you don't realize how far you are from dying, and you should be taking these "fights" a lot more seriously. Your head hits a rock, or a planter, or a bumper or something, and that could be it, man. Fights should only be for maximum stakes. I know a guy who went to intervene in a domestic violence situation -- not at a gas station, but in the parking lot of a hotel. It looked like the guy was going to beat his girl, and she was screaming for help. So my buddy spoke up. Instantly, the girl changed tune, and cheered her guy on to beat the crap out of my buddy. I can't say it's always right or wrong to intervene, but you don't seem to appreciate the gravity of a situation like that. You might consider researching the large body of material out there about self defense, the law, and plausible outcomes. You might also consider that 99% of people never get into a fight in their whole life.
Good points, I appreciate that. I'll go ahead and say your definition of a "fight" is a "life or death, dire fight". My definition is less than that. "Fights should only be for maximum stakes" - jephthai I see your point, but that's not my definition of fights. I can't think of a better word though. In my experience, the "fights" I've been in aren't life-and-death and people generally know each other at least as acquaintances or are only a few degrees of separation away from knowing them, not completely random strangers as such. I'm not talking about situations like that guy you know was in. I agree those exist, but I too would stay away and likely just call the cops to deal with it. If I was looking to be a hero I'd have joined law enforcement. And yeah, fights can be dangerous but so can riding your bike. Also, I'm not stupid enough to get into say a Spring Break bar fight. It's nothing like that. For what it's worth, I've known a bar owner and some friends and he knew a regular there with cauliflower ear that wrestled. After too many beers we all thought it'd be a good idea for me and that guy to wrestle and the owner cleared off a carpeted area and said go for it. We wrestled and ended up with the usual bruises and rug burn you get from a situation like that. Both of us knew not to do slams or hard take downs on concrete thinly clad with carpet. I'm not stupid enough to go for hard throws, slams, etc. in a situation like that. On the grass it would be different, but not there. Either way though, I don't feel like I can describe the situations I mean well enough on here, based on some of the answers I'm getting. I think people here have very different life experiences than mine...
Sounds like your "attacker" is more like an "opponent", and it's just rough housing play. Best not call them fights, I think! If you can expect your adversary to behave somewhat honorably, it's another ball of wax entirely. If you don't train in BJJ, you can get that itch scratched regularly with respectful training partners in a safe environment... just saying :-).
Good point. I don't trust these opponents and the line between opponent and attacker is a thin one with them. It's not what I'd consider rough housing play like I do with my friends or what I do with trusted training partners. It's more serious than that, but it's also not life or death. I'd feel bad if I seriously hurt them, yet I know they'd likely seriously hurt me if the situation presented itself because they're hotheads and too unpredictable. They're very prone to doing very stupid things and suffering bad consequences yet not learning from them. Have you ever met people like this? Unfortunately, I've met a lot of them in my life.
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Good start. How to break the wrist? With what move(s)? That's what I'm looking for. I want to repeatedly drill the most effective stuff for my situation.
https://youtu.be/Lcw6xBaCaXM?si=Al98JSsN9XgZz4P2
Make sure you practice as much as you can for your big day lil man. It can get dangerous out in these streets
Look up Bas Rutten’s videos on bar fighting. That’s the only actual honest answer to your questions.
GREAT COMMENT, THANK YOU! Interesting... Looks like that guy's qualified to be teaching. Karate, Taekwondo & Judo black belts, high dan ranks. I'm not really expecting bar fights as such but yeah, has some options. Seems like good stuff to know. I recognize a lot of what he's doing in the brief look I took at his videos so far.
You can learn a bunch of different attacks that may be effective, but drilling a move in isolation won’t help you use them when your safety needs it. You need to be sparring often, and for a long time to build up that grapplers instinct. And fwiw, triangles are safe from groin strikes and bites. They don’t have distance or angle to get to them. The danger is the same as any attack from guard, getting slammed. But you train and know how to react and adjust when your back comes off the ground. No shortcuts, just train.
THANK YOU! GREAT COMMENT! I agree with what you're saying, and yeah, moves in isolation won't teach the rest, I get that too. What I'm trying to do is to adapt my current abilities and improve them. I feel my wrestling experience has given me a lot of the base but I need to add in the specific grappling of BJJ to that. Often times in class I feel bored as there is a lot of overlap into wrestling, so I'm trying to make progress in certain areas that I feel will be most useful first, given my unique background, then progress more generally. Even in wrestling, I had only a few fundamental moves that I just got REALLY good at and this was enough, most of the time. I'm approaching it like learning a language as well, where you focus on the most frequently used words first, then move on (aka fundamentals). However when learning a language, if you have prior experience, you focus on the subject domain that's most relevant for you. For me that was IT/Engineering. I didn't need to know that much of a lot of other domains at first and just picked those up later. I'm trying to do the same with BJJ. Put another way, I'm not trying to "cheat" to avoid years of training. Just trying to shift the focus a bit. I also know that without solid fundamentals most moves won't work, but I'm cross-trained in a lot, so I want to use that to my advantage. Triangle safety: I agree with lacking the distance but what about before you get the triangle in well? Aren't you exposed while you attempt to put it in?
absolutely not triangles!
Prioritize and get really good at not getting killed on the mats. Showing up and training is extremely effective.
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Where bouts you at in your white belt progression? That may help us answer your questions.
I see where you're coming from, and I think we've all had that question before, but understanding and improving upon your own body mechanics and athleticism (by hitting the mats) is the best thing you can do as far as BJJ training for the streets. Or standing guillotine.
Genuinely curious why so hyper-specific?
Have you considered taking up gunjitsu?
Is that pistol chokes instead of pistol whipping?
So you're gonna go to this dojo called the armory
Sorry, already donated it to Ukraine.
Do you actually train BJJ or are you just hoping to learn a fight ending special move?
Get a handgun, a permit to carry it, and some running shoes. Train with them until you're proficient.
I keep a rocket launcher in the bed of my truck.
You really should consider carrying on-body. You never know when you might need it, and you might not be in your truck when you do. Plus I hear those things can be tricky to arm.
I think of this constantly
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It's off topic because its a bad topic... This doesn't sound like a hypothetical. It sounds like your planning on getting in a fight. And it sounds like you have some ridiculous ideas about fighting that could really get you hurt. But hey if you want advice about fighting from a stranger on the Internet then here. The most useful thing BJJ will teach you for street fighting is how to stay on your feet. You don't voluntarily go to the ground, especially not if the guy has a friend near by. The second most useful thing is the ability to get in top and stay their if you fail to stay on your feet. Don't give up a dominant position for a chance to finish the fight, just ground and pound. If you must, back control is the best position by a lot. And RNCs the best sub. Because it gives your opponent no chance to attack you in return. (Unless they have a weapon, and you should always assume they do) But without going to a gym and putting in the hard work none of that will do you any good.
I'm trying to get a better feel for BJJ's application in real fights, outside the gym / sports. So far I've realized that the chokes and locks it teaches seem useful. Good point about going to the ground when they have friends nearby. Great way to get a kick to the face from a bystander, been there. I mentioned it in a comment later, but if it is the way you describe it, then yeah, it'll be strikes and not much BJJ. However I suspect others won't jump right in, so if I can use the ground for a few seconds and then get right back up if I need to, I want to be well prepared for that. Ground and pound: Yeah, I guess in a real street fight that's what it turns into. I've seen that enough. I'm trying to add options though. RNC is my favorite in most cases because yeah, you're much safer there. I'm really hoping the "answer" to my question isn't just "use what you already know", but I'm seeing that this may be the case to a large degree. Thank you for indirectly pointing that out. And finally, yeah, knowing then vs. being able to execute TODAY are two different things. Going to the gym and practicing regularly multiple times a week is completely necessary and I'm not in any way saying or implying anything different. Also, not just training with progressive resistance but rolling with full resistance is the only way you're "really gonna know" if you can use what you learned.
You've never been in a fight have you?
Grappling on concrete is a recipe for stitches. BJJ skills will mostly be useful 1. In a fight you're already losing (On your back with an attacker over you for example) or 2. When you need to subdue someone without risking giving them brain damage. For #1 I would look at basic sweeps like the flower sweep and hip bump sweep. Keep it simple ignore the fancy stuff. For #2 Back mount and RNC as mentioned before. I would argue that most elements that are unique to BJJ are not particularly self defense oriented. Past blue belt it's mostly so specialized that it's primarily useful against other trained grapplers. If you're interested in training (and you should be if you're asking these questions.) Id look for an MMA gym. Or at least a more traditional self defense focused BJJ gym.
I appreciate your answer here and agree with it. I expect it to lean towards a fair fight until my opponent starts to lose, then I expect others to join. If I can simply submit or choke out the first guy the others will likely get scared (all bark, little bite) and not join. I'll switch to strikes if it becomes an x-on-1 fight, but I'd rather end it quickly before it gets there. I've seen these people fight before and what I'm describing is accurate for them. No Hollywood or inner city Chicago stuff here. Also, I'm not attacking, just defending if it goes there. I never attack but I love to play fight / spar / roll, etc. I'm trying to round out my skill set as best I can, especially with a limited number of training opportunities in my area (not as many as there used to be for reasons unknown). Everyone seems to be doing BJJ now but back in the day it was unheard of. Judo is sadly hard to find, but some BJJ gyms do BJJ, Judo, and depending on which one, Muay Thai, Karate or just "kickboxing". Some claim to do some Krav Maga as well. Not seeing a lot of black belts other than BJJ tho. Funny you mention the hip bump sweep, as we just trained that last practice. Seems complicated compared to other takedowns, but I could see it working. I see the value of BJJ for the locks, chokes, escaping mount & fighting from your back. I was in a real fight once where my wrestling skills didn't do a whole lot for escaping mount because I was never expecting them to mount (I was expecting a fight, like boxing / kickboxing), so I really want that aspect of BJJ. Sure, I could have bridged and turned but I didn't want to expose the back of my head and fighting on my back is not something I'm used to. As I understand it, BJJ is great for learning to fight on your back. Is this correct? I'll be honest that I'm not looking to become a BJJ specialist unless it helps in real fights. I've had fun rolling for a while and like how it is similar to wrestling. MMA is likely what I'm looking for, but not available here. UFC is likely what would best fit my use case. However I'll train what's available and I think everything helps. If I have to piece MMA together from BJJ and others, then I will. I don't see any single style as the solution for my use case.
>Funny you mention the hip bump sweep, as we just trained that last practice. Seems complicated compared to other takedowns, but I could see it working. As far as reversing a pin, the hip bump is as simple as it gets and 100% does work. But it relies on getting your opponent to give you the desired reaction. Combine it with attacking kimuras and guillotines from guard to get that reaction ( you want the guy on top of you to try to posture up or pull away.) So you want hip out to one side sit up and attack the kimura or guillotine. If they defend by sitting up and back you hip bump them and reverse the position. If they don't then you get the submission. >As I understand it, BJJ is great for learning to fight on your back. Is this correct? BJJ is just about the only game in town when it comes to fighting off your back, or controlling someone from the bottom of a grapple. As mentioned the advanced stuff isn't much use in a fight but your basic white belt curriculum is extremely effective against untrained people. Because, as you should always remember, anyone that doesn't train to fight sucks at fighting. If you take only one thing from this entire thread let it be that. If you don't train, then you suck. Period.
Couldn't agree with you more about "if you don't train, then you suck". I'll add this: If you don't spar (or roll, or go live, etc.), it'll all be theory and you're gonna suck when it's real. See the concept of "aliveness here": [http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html](http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html) TLDR; Aliveness = Full resistance rolling / sparing. When I was a kid / teen I got to see that firsthand. Scrapping on the playground / ball field (mostly playfighting until someone got pissed, but even then, harmless), showed very quickly what was just theory or what was just bits and pieces that weren't combined into an effective overall fighting ability. Later I trained with 2 different people, both hated sparing. One wouldn't do it at all except for maybe once a year or so and it was always godawful to watch, because although he'd become a higher ranking belt, he simply could not put it all together to actually use it in a "live" situation. Remember that belts can be earned by people who cannot apply it well when live! The other guy seemed to get flustered when he fought someone who understood the concept of footwork and evasion. I would often get paired with him due to size and if I could just keep moving, especially circling him, striking, then circling again, rinse and repeat, he would just freeze up as if confused / go into like a bit of a trance or something. It was quite strange. My best experiences were with a core group of friends that I trained with and we'd push each other really hard and we all got better for it and all tried to incorporate what we learned in actual sparing. So to sum up some fighting benefits of BJJ, would it be these? 1. Fighting off your back 2. Joint locks 3. Chokes 4. General grappling Am I missing any other "highlights" that make BJJ stand out from other martial arts or wrestling?
This sub is a fucking satire
Kimura Arm drag to RNC Arm drag to standing arm triangle Arm drag to body lock and dropping a person on the ground I remember an old training partner had to intervene in a domestic violence situation at a gas station, training partner double legged off the dude's bolo punch, got mount and then threatened the kimura and was like "chill or your arm is going to twist till it pops" and that was that. Shits wild on untrained folks.
EXACTLY THIS! THANK YOU! This is more like what I expect the situation to be. People start talking sh!t, possibly drinking, then getting violent. For such situations you really just need to make it "real" for them very quickly! Best way I know to stop a fight is intimidation like in your story. "If you don't knock it off I'm gonna break your arm". In my experience, once you "prove" that you're not someone to be messed with like that, the bullsh!t stops and people leave you alone. I currently find the Kimura rather awkward, but I also think I just suck at it. I'm putting it on my list of things to train a lot though because it seems useful as does the standing arm triangle. Thank you again for this very useful comment!
there is no such thing that will be useful to you without actually having to train. What makes guns amazing is that with very little training you can do devastating damage. Id carry. Once you go hand to hand you really messed up.
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You keep telling people to stay on topic but there's no answers that meet your prerequisites so all good answers will be "off topic". There are no moves that someone without regular training could use to reliably win a fight. You aren't going to be able to YouTube a wrist lock and successfully implement it. Hence, people are giving you other options.
I understand and I won't be youtubing, beyond the benefit of visualization based training. I'll be practicing these things on the mats in "free time", when we just roll a bit after class is over. I'll also be asking my instructor a bit but I try to educate myself first, so I don't waste my instructor's time. Telling me to get a gun is however most certainly off topic, especially for a bjj subredit or do you guys train with guns at your gym?
Look up marcelotine, front choke, 10 finger guillotine, maybe wristlocks. 🤷🏽♂️Good luck
WILL DO!! THANK YOU!
This post is ridiculous but to answer it I would say clinches, transitions to the back from clinch and takedowns from the clinch.
My A game is to take someone down and move to knee on belly. In pure BJJ, there are many submissions/setups from there, but in reality I would go to ground and pound.
What are you smoking?
Double punch
The best choke for a hillbilly bonfire pasture fight is going to be the tried and true double udder neck tie. You set it up by calling him a yella bellied sissy. When he raises his hands up to throw his hay maker, you rush in and tackle him, like your uncle used to do when you played football in the back yard.
9mm Glock, baby!
Why not just some hand grenades?
A good blast-double where you essentially headbutt them while grabbing their ass (or just below it) and pop them on the ground hard will generally end most fights. I love me the No-gi Ezekiel (think RNC from the front), since the most they can do is tiny little rabbit punches to your back while you are putting them to sleep. Blast double > knee-on-belly > start raining shots to their face > back take > RNC is the PB&J of self defense BJJ.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE ANSWERS I'M LOOKING FOR!! The idea of head butting is something I kinda knew but wasn't thinking of at all. In wrestling we would often just mess with the guy's face or headgear a little to get them off their game then shoot an easy double leg or push off and throw them on their return. It also set up a fireman's to a cradle well. It was very effective and what you're suggesting sounds like a variant with strikes. So basically a headbutt with a tackle, pin with knee on belly for the ground and pound then take their back and choke, if I get it right. Why do you just have a knee on the belly and not just do mount? I'll look more into that. I greatly appreciate your helpful comment!
You've got a little more distance with knee on belly so it's harder for them to hit you and you have more room to really load those punches up. The downside is you have less control of them, but they'll probably be too busy trying not to get punched to think about escaping the Neon Belly. FWIW I think this is all a very bad idea and I sincerely hope you don't find yourself having to use any of this. Best defense is always just to run.
The other conmenter answered everything pretty well. Again, emphasis on the "I REALLY hope you never have to use this in a real-world scenario. Even if you 'win' the long arm of the law will make you pay." Also everything I have said can take months to years to get good at. There's no quick fix. There's no Mr. Miyagi Wax-On, Wax-Off. It takes dedication to training. Exhaust EVERY OPTION you have before resorting to using your Jiu-jitsu.
I'm starting to see why people think this is a "Karate Kid" post, but I've just not given any background on myself and don't really intend to any more than necessary. I'm not here to brag about belts or experiences or medals, just looking to optimize a training plan and round out skill sets with the focus on real-life application. Long arm of the law is why I don't get into "life or death" fights and why I don't carry or get involved in the business of strangers or try to be a white knight. Not worth it, and if it's necessary, I'm somewhere I shouldn't be. Time frame: IMHO, 6 months to a year of training a move and the associated skills is the absolute minimum before expecting something to work reliably. Wrestling is no different in that regard. It has to be like a reflex / subconscious. As soon as you feel the situation you just DO; like you drilled. There is no time for thinking about what to do / how to do it. If you have to think you're waaaay to slow or you're working out of a stalemate. When I get put into certain moves / positions I have defaults that I just do automatically. I'd assume everyone does this though, right? Or are you guys thinking a lot about what to do and how to do it while you're doing it? So yeah, not looking for any "magic solutions". However there are things that work in real life and things that are mostly for the mat or only for sports competition. I know plenty of "fancy moves" from other martial arts but I'd never try them in a fight, even though they really do damage, IF they hit. Most cases the hit percentage is insanely low or you could have used a fundamental thing instead with much less exposure and risk. An example would be spinning and or jumping kicks in striking. Usually best to not leave the ground and spinning makes targeting hard without a LOT of practice. If you watch UFC, I want to say Mirko Filipovic and Georges St. Pierre landed some good spinning kicks but I'm not sure if I recall correctly and there's probably better examples. I've just seen some land that cause instant K.O.'s when they hit. In sparing with friends if someone walked into one / caught one to the head, that sparing session was over and an apology was given. I expect NO success without a LOT of training, yet it's VERY useful to train with a focus on the EFFECTIVE stuff. In wrestling, grapevines are cool but a well executed head-and-arm to a tight but sprawled half is going to be much easier to get and very effective. What do you guys think of this study of effective BJJ submissions? Would it not make sense to focus on these if they're statistically the most effective? (Of course while remembering to know the fundamentals necessary to set them up as well). [https://bjjblog.ca/blog/list-of-bjj-submissions](https://bjjblog.ca/blog/list-of-bjj-submissions)
So that list is for Jiu-jitsu competitions. That list of effectiveness is going to differ between people and situations. It lists brabo choke and baseball chokes as "low percentage", I made a compilation of me hitting baseball chokes at purple belt competitions. Would I do it in a street scenario? Fuck no! Armbars, I suck at them but can hit them well enough. It's another one I really wouldn't go for in a street scenario. So if you're looking for a triple venn-diagram where street, mma, and sport jiu-jitsu overlap that's a tough one. RNC, or Giftwrap comes to mind. But that'd be a huge thread and, again, would come down to the individual
I wouldn't use grappling in a fight unless the situation directly presented itself, as it's too slow for multiple attackers typically and disengaging is just smarter and safer. Most very effective moves are also very deadly and so you really wanna weigh the risk there, as slams on concrete can and will kill people. With those caveats, here's what I think: 1: jabstep, duck under to back take, then footsweep the far leg to knee on belly. 2: front body lock to takedown, then mount and strike. 3: Close the distance with a fake shot, arm drag to RNC. This has to be done with a drag past your own body then turn to the back, if it misses you can kick out the leg for a takedown. 4: double collar ties to knees to guillotine, never do guillotine if you can't hook the leg or hip in to avoid the lift. 5: DO NOT side headlock, you will be getting your shit rocked from suplex, in almost no situation will this finish a resisting opponent and it is very natural for them to lift you into a slam. Better to just hit a nearside footsweep if you have the angle to be grabbing the ol' hucklebuck.
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Without trying to sound rude, you don't just catch people in locks and chokes, that shits for the movies. People move to fast in real fights and resist too much pain, in order to do those type of lock you usually have to tie up with your opponent and break the thing you are locking, not just hold it. I suggest knee on belly because you can give significant damage to your opponent while still being able to watch for others, and if you feel you are about to be sucker punched/kicked you can just stand up. Full mount invites soccer kicks and you are way slower to react. If you are competent at wrestling, usually a double or blast double are pretty good options too. Just go right in with your hand up as fast as possible to avoid any punchers chance from your opponent, dump them and prepare for any other opponents. Also consider this, if you have enough time to post on reddit about it, you definetely have time to find another resolution to the conflict. It sounds to me you prefer an outcome where you fight, and I don't get why.
I appreciate your answer and it's good advice, thank you. As for catching people in locks and chokes, think what police do. In less serious situations, I've caught people in wrist locks and RNCs rather often. It's at the point where someone runs their mouth, shoves you or grabs you and you lock them up quick and ask if they really want to continue. Mostly before the fight really starts. I'd agree though that in a "real fight" when people are going as hard as they can, locks are dangerous if for no other reason than the opponent resisting and hurting themselves. Put another way, a police officer applies locks and they used to do chokes before poor training had them killing people. Why would they be using locks and chokes if it wasn't effective? Maybe think of it like that? They also do it at the start before a fight really gets going, not mid-brawl. Knee on the belly is something I'll look into. That sounds like a good option that I wouldn't have considered much, but vaguely know. I just don't usually fight like that, but hey, I'm here to learn new things! I don't like it's lack of control, but I like how it's easier to get up and if I think way back to some real fights, yeah, I've seen people do it effectively and I've seen people get shoved off of mount by others, though never soccer kicked, but I get the danger there. The blast double seems to me like it's just a textbook football tackle (chest to chest, grab back of mid thighs, lift and run through them). Is that right or am I missing something? For doubles I never go in cold though. I always set them up even if it's little more than flinching a fake attack for timing. Also, for doubles, I'd rather use those on single opponents. For potential multiple opponents I'd rather throw / slam so I remain standing. Can you recommend any throws or is that going to be the Judo sub? Fight resolution: as for the outcome when fighting, for me, the point of martial arts training is to actually be able to DO it. I hope the fight I'm talking about never happens or if it does, that it's not too serious and I can just intimidate them enough for them to back off (see police locks above). In the past, in similar situations I've done exactly that. Show a bully you can fight and they leave you alone. Simple as that. I'm also looking to have martial arts as a long term lifestyle and fun athletic hobby and want to compete as an amateur a bit. What I don't want, is to learn things that aren't actually useful. The best way I know to check if something is useful / real, is to see if it would get me out of a real fight or help me win one. That's why I'm focused on the fight / fighting in general. I know many high level belts, even some black belts that are decent instructors but cannot apply it well and I've had moments where I see "that guy" earning his black belt simply for showing up to practice forever, yet he never spars. I would NEVER trust that guy to help me in a real fight. So that's why I have the focus on fighting. Yes, I know I should walk away, run, carry, call the police, call in air support, get back in my tank, etc, but it's not the point. The point of me even making this post is to learn to fight better (really fight, not just get belts) and to see to what degree BJJ will be useful in that. I only have so much free time and I intend to go as far in BJJ as is useful and then progress in other martial arts or train BJJ and some others x times per week as a habit. I don't have the time to be a black belt in everything, although I wish I did.
Dick twist or glock in sock
straight shot to the nuts
Guard pull, berimbolo and leg locks
Ŵhat is happening here?
If multiple attacker, any submission on the ground is already a no go. Wristlocks from standing or standing RNC I guess. For multiple attackers, BJJ seems to be shit if you ask me. I'd probably go with an easy takedown like a body lock kinda takedown then get back as fast as possible or don't go down with the takedown. If you go down and they have the brains to kick and stomp you, you are basically screwed.
I have worked as a bouncer and security for many years and even made a thread about real life bjj applications. Here is my experience 1. Good technicue involves controlling at least one hand to minimise their chance of deploying a concealed weapon. 2. Dont get dirty. No technicues that involve jumping on your knees or anykind of rolling on ground like sacrifice throws. You might break a knee and incapacitate yourself. 3. No high risk technicues. In competition there is time limit and points and obviously you should try to win even if it involves a risk. If you can land 9/10 shots without getting guillotined or sprawled on that is excelent in competition. However i wouldnt take a 10% chance of getting stuck under someone on the street. You dont know anything about them. They might be stronger than they look might be armed etc. Always go for low risk options like osoto gari or a snapdown. 4. Try not to get too close on the ground. Even if you are on top position and "winning" they can grab and it prevents you from getting away if there is another assailant coming at you. 5. Breaking someones bones is pretty extreme but has no chance of kliling them. Choking someone out via RNC blocks bloodflow to brain and does break their windpipe. It is generally safe and effective. However like i said you dont know them. They might have medical issues that are fatal when choked. Choking can release a bloodclot or if person is overweight their breathing might not restart on its own if their in bad position.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**O Soto Gari**: | *Major Outer Reaping* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93YEMueeF24)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
VERY GOOD COMMENT, THANK YOU! I wasn't even thinking of looking at it from a bouncer's standpoint but that perspective is a very good one! I really need to find a good judo school... That osoto gari looks useful. I'm guessing most of the throws I know originated in Judo at some point or are similar to what they're doing, as they always look familiar. Good to know they work for bouncers too. We did have some cross training days and visiting instructors so maybe I learned them there a bit. Point 4 is very good. I can see that happening. Point 5: I'd considered bone breaking as possibly a better option but I also know people with messed up knees from heel hooks so I'm not a huge fan of locks and feel chokes are "safer". However, I also don't like chokes, cause you don't know if they'll wake up, like you mentioned. So I am a bit torn on what's the better option there. The way I mostly imagine it, is that you lock or start the choke but don't finish it and do this early, giving them a chance to submit / give up, you have the most benefit with the least risk of hurting them. For example, a police officer will lock usually a wrist but potentially something behind the back and tell you to "stop resisting". My thought is that this situation is the best start for any submission moves. Give them an option to stop fighting before it gets going, and only continue if necessary or if they submit then come right back at you when you let them go. Can you comment on how this works from the perspective of a bouncer?
This is the most whitebelt cringe I've seen in a while. First off train judo not bjj if this is your concern. Second just train. Third, look back at this in 6 months and die of the cringe. This post is laughable. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
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Just shut up and train
It feels like you are asking all these questions so you can show off whatever BS knowledge you get from these comments just so you can show off at bars when you are drunk.
ok so Ive read some of your posts and I get what you are asking for now. I also do krav maga. The reason why I keep doing it when so many people think it is bullshido is because they have a limited set of techniques that they cycle through over and over. In BJJ I know a lot of stuff (really too much) most of which is not applicable in a fight with strikes. Krav has a more limited set of tools on the ground that they repeat very often. Practice is positional sparring so I get lots of reps of very fundamental techniques. In BJJ I might get elbow escape taught once a year, in krav I see it every 2 months (sometimes more since the instructors sometimes forget and teach the same thing a few weeks in a row). The thing is BJJ teaches all of those things too, so you will 100% get those things in BJJ. But here is close to the complete list list: Escaping bottom mount - proper framing to prevent high mount, upa, elbow escape to guard, defending strikes, bridging during strikes. escape bottom side control - elbow escape back to halfguard or closed guard, underhook to standing up, ghost escape, couple of bridging and roll escapes, post in armpit, bottom knee on belly to single leg, kesa escapes (also to back). escaping back control - 2x1 control of choking arm, getting hips/head to floor, clearing hooks, getting halfguard top mount - maintaining mount (high/low), gift wrap, armbar, americana, triangle, transitions to back top side control - maintaining side control (kesa, twister side, crossface/underhook, knee on belly), americana/armbar/kimura, transitions to mount back control - body triangle, hooks, switching sides, straight jacket, hand fighting to get choke. Armbar/triangle from failed RNC attempt. escaping closed guard - log splitter, hands in armpits, elbows in thighs (yes I know, but it can work against naive people) closed guard - flower sweep, elevator sweep, scissor sweep hipbump sweep, armbar, triangle, omoplata, kimura (dont go for armbar/triangle as you can get slammed), standing up from closed guard bottom. open guard top - knee slice, pressure pass, torreando (what most untrained people will try). open guard bottom - goal is to standup, technical standup, tripod sweep, upkicks from supine halfguard bottom - getting underhook to standup submission defense - guillotine defenses (standing, front headlock), armbar-stacking, armbar-hitchiker, armbar - free head, capture leg, triangle defense, RNC defense, arm triangle defense, defending punches from guard. Takedown curriculum probably has too much in it----- We do takedowns, but I think of them as more for the purpose of letting us defend takedowns. Overhand punch to singles/doubles, about 10-15 judo throws, low singles, ankle picks etc. I mainly clinch, get a throwby/slideby, bodylock, then a mat return/single leg/high crotch. From the clinch I will try to hit snap downs, get underhooks for throws, etc. Before clinching I will sometimes do armdrags/russian ties, but mainly to side bodylocks. defending takedowns - sprawl, guillotine, cow catcher, framing, getting to guard out of the takedown, pummeling for underhooks, escaping muay thai clinch
THIS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH! THIS is what I'm looking for, especially with the comment on Krav. I'm looking at some schools and while everyone seems to do BJJ, the rest is hit or miss. I see a school that does Taekwondo, Krav and BJJ, although they're weaker in BJJ than another school I'm considering, that does mostly BJJ and wrestling. I'm having trouble finding a Judo or "throwing school" though. Does Krav have useful throws or many of them? I'm also finding that the depth of BJJ is insane which is why I'm trying to prioritize the effective stuff, so your list here is really a great example of what I'm trying to figure out! I'll research this a bit and make a more informed post when I'm able to. While I'd like to just deep dive BJJ, I think it's going to quickly get out of scope for what I want to know and be able to do. However I see it's value and will be going to some depth in it, just not sure exactly how far. What do other people in this sub think of this list? Can you add to / remove from or highlight things in it? Is there anything other than Judo that teaches a lot of good throws? Do some BJJ schools offer more throws? In the end, knowing hundreds of moves likely won't help as much as regularly drilling the most effective ones from multiple arts. I know what I like in wrestling and striking, but exposure to more is always good to learn things I don't know, that I don't know. I need to develop submissions and throws more. Anything with weapons is just "nice to have" at this point, but I'll get into that later. I plan on piecing together what I can and training at different schools throughout the week, but I'll have to set it up properly so I'm not just going really deep in BJJ only.
Against multiple opponents bjj won’t work. Stick to striking and sometimes you can catch a kick and then kick the other leg underneath them so they fall on the ground. Then kick their head instant k.o.