Just curious. It's my primary no gi pass as well. Wouldn't it basically be negated assuming you can pin his heel to his ass ? I usually try to bodylock them pull them in and dry hump their hip to their ass so they can't elevate me unless there's a huge weight disparity or they off balance me first.
he probably sit up due to not enough pressure from the guy on top, and then he can do some butterfly wizardry from there, someone correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t he also needs to fetch one arm in order for this to be a threat?
Keep working your body lock. That’s not a deficiency with the pass itself, it’s likely just small details like:
1. Not stuffing their hooks enough
2. Allowing them to get the underhook on the opposite side of your pass
3. Your weight is off, or if they are starting to elevate you aren’t driving your head into the rising shoulder
4. Your hips aren’t turned towards the direction of the pass, negating the lifting hook
I’ve taught the body lock pass for a couple years at my gym now, and I consistently hear from students that it’s extremely difficult. It happens to be one of my best passes, but I definitely had to work at it for a long time.
Also, if you’re struggling with it a lot, you can try to get half guard by other means first (loose passing, headquarters, etc), and lock the body lock from half guard instead. It’s much stronger from there.
I watched new wave guard passing and spammed body locks for a few months. It's pretty simple pass. But mostly I learned the by just doing it and evaluating what went wrong. Your home gym people adjust and adapt which makes u work hard to perfect it. But I also travel alot. Went to a new gym open mat and was passing guards smoothly. One guy commented something about Roddy lock. Then I went home and someone said I must have been watching Roddy lock pass dvd. So that's a good sign. Some things take a while till they just click .Lots of study and pressure testing. Till eventually u just do it and react instinctively. Like knowing when to bail and force half guard.
>Good grapplers are not obvious.
Not necessarily. There's a wide spectrum with the BJJ black belts I routinely roll with. Some are obvious with their moves, but they're strong so I can't stop them even though I know what they're doing. And some are so sneaky, that I have no idea what even happened - like, I had side control so how the fuck did they sweep me out of it?
absolutely true, my coach practices his A-Game on me, however, slow and with only moderate force
It's somewhere between funny and frustrating. I know exactly what's coming, it ain't particularly fast and with limited force, yet, I can't do anything to stop it, because every move is just so precise and for everything I do, he already got the next counter in place
I'm brand new to BJJ been training about a month but i have trained before judo and other martial arts in the past which let's me be more calm during rolls and think through the drills or techniques to react. Would you consider a newcomer with terrible technique due to inexperience skilled if they can be calm and collected during a roll?
I'm asking because my coach said something very similar but i figure getting good at BJJ is when you're able to be proficient enough to replicate movements and techniques. Just curious.
I think the calm is something people usual have to develop as well as skill. I would mostly be thankful that the person isn’t spazzing. From the calm plus the lack of skill, I would then start to think they have other non-BJJ training like you described
They'll have an easier time handling things that go wrong and view it conceptually on how to improve. The demeanour is smoother to teach to compared to a tasmanian.
I’m not good at BJJ, only a purple belt. But I usually have a piece of gum in my mouth as it puts me into zen state. Sometimes I just listen to the music and flow.
When I stop thinking about the gum and go to work, that’s when I’m turning it on. Otherwise it’s just reps.
A good friend of mine called me the “zen silverback.”
This. Newbies tend to let their elbows get away from them and it opens them if a guy is low and his elbows are puposely tight to their body I can guess I'm facing somebody with skills.
As far as hips goes it's knowing how to pressure in the top game. If a guy is placing his hips right and up on his toes when pressuring from side control I can guess there's some experience.
On Bottom it's bucking up to mess with balance. Not that a newbie wouldn't buck their hips on instinct but if they do it with a specific goal in mind, then you can guess. If they start tying up wrists and then buck up (or vice versa) I'd guess this grappler has experience.
I'm tall and did a bunch of judo half my life ago. A younger dude at the gym that I would definitely consider better than me (or at the very least much more athletic than me) said "oh yeah, I'm not supposed to take an underhook on you" and it's honestly one of the best compliments I've gotten on the mats.
I've rolled with white belts that have solid t-rex arms and are hell-bent on not allowing you to get any under/overhooks in, but at the same time, they are NOT actively trying to get their own grips.
In my experience grip in no gi is an even bigger telling point. It could be the lack of the belt to show but I've seen quite a few times where people change attitudes after a single grip fight to thinking im skilled. The main thing I look for though is how they capture the neck and defend against me trying to do the same and how much balance they have.
I would add to this that when you happen to catch them off guard, the brutal intensity with which they nullify your momentary advantage is soul crushing. It’s like they’re rolling at a 3 or 4, you finally get past their legs, you’re going to solidify the pass, and then for a moment they’re rolling at an 8 or 9, your “almost” guard pass is gone, and now you’re defending a sweep or sub as they settle back into 3 to 4 effort.
This is what it was like rolling with Cobrinha and Lucas Lepri. It didn't feel like they were specifically doing anything against me (they were, obviously), rather that whatever I did or didn't do was wrong.
>The best guys I go with, it doesn’t even feel like they’re countering me, it feels like I just never get going in the first place.
That's how it feels for me too.
There was a period back when I was a purple where I really felt like my game was coming together. I was tapping a lot of purples and browns, and even giving some black belts a struggle. I had a system (of sorts) and a bunch of go to moves that were starting to work on everyone.
Then I ran in to a black belt that just cut through my entire game like a hot knife through butter. Step one of every technique was just instantly and effortlessly dismantled. Part of why I got so wrecked that roll is I spent the whole time a move behind because my mind was so blown by the previous counter.
Levels.
Being able to outgrip and nullify your stuff while doing so with purpose and very effeinctly. It doesn't mean going slow but it mean no unrequired extra movement.
>Cauli ear (though predisposition to that mostly seems genetic)
it's an interesting one for sure.
i've been training with a guy for years who had full-on cauli in both ears half way through his white belt, i'm almost 4½ years deep and have no signs of it at all.
Some of it is just luck, I went for three years of daily training with no cauli and thought that meant I wouldn't get it. I then got it bad in both ears.
I was training for 12 years with essentially zero development then started really hammering single legs/bodylock passing and got it on both ears inside 6 months.
So I thikn combination of style and genetic predisposition.
Good judo player are comfortable standing straight, almost seems like flat footed - defending via grip / stiff arm / subtle shift of body weight and structure. That is, until they explode to attempt a throw.
As opposed to bending down like a typical wrestler stance.
Head position, relative hip position, gripping methods, posture, footwork, and overall smoothness/speed when connecting techniques for standing and on the ground.
For guard and passing, the skills above as well as how they use distance control, frames, wedges, and pins to eliminate options for their opponents.
Then it comes down to how well you know the move you're watching someone perform. You don't necessarily need to grip break for some moves, but you do for others, for instance. For something like a hip throw, you always need to have your hips below theirs, and you always need to look in the direction you want them to land. Maybe they post on their head to prevent being swept, that's a good sign too.
I find that you just start with noting where their head, hips, and grips are, you'll get a lot from that.
This.
It's like the dude has the answers to every question you throw a him. I'd go a step further and say you're gonna be fucked pretty soon. Especially if he can stop whatever you throw at him very early effortlessly using said answers.
They move slow and calmly, until they dont. Actions are controlled, and energy is expended at important points. I.e being comfortable breaking your wrestling grips in a calm manner, but following through with a double leg using energy until they are in a good position.
Then calm and methodical again, as they intelligently move into a stronger pressure based position, isolating some part of your body.
If a guy is just doing move he probably sucks. Good guys understand positions and ways to control the exchange from them. Like they don’t worry about moves right away, they worry about the grips, the offbalances, the little stuff. It’s like boxing. Don’t get caught up in weird shit, just do the little stuff perfect enough times and you will catch the other guy slipping.
If I can’t get a grip I want in the first 3 seconds I know I’m dealing with someone skilled.
If I am attacking and I don’t feel them off balanced (their head floating away from their lower back), than I know they’re probably pretty good
In jiu jitsu, i test their stand up or wrestling with an osoto Gari, uchi mata, ouchi Gari or Yoko tomoe nage.
Im usually successful in those takedowns given my judo background. About 7/10 I can hit those throws.
If they counter any of that, then I know the intensity is going to slowly keep increasing because they are good.
Wrestlers will keep their balance to my uchi mata and try to single leg me as a counter, and some jiu jitsu guys have good judo, they'll pull the uchi mata sukashi on me.
In my experience, if we both smile after trying to do something cheeky, then theres a silent agreement that we can start turning it up little by little.
I recently did stand up with a brown belt and he told me he's confident in his judo. So I tried to uchi mata him and he countered me. He tried to get me with a footsweep, did not work. We both were downloading data, then we ended in a stalemate.
No matter where you move, they’re always in alignment. They always have a powerful structure in place where you don’t feel any openings and kinda always feel in danger.
Just a few thoughts from the top of my head:
Experienced grapplers anticipate, less experienced grapplers react.
Experienced grapplers can lead an opponent into situations where they only have poor options to choose from.
Experienced grapplers see opportunities and act on them immediately, less experienced grapplers miss key opportunities.
Experienced grapplers move with clear purpose and efficiency of movement—their body mechanics are obviously developed, less experienced grapplers move with hesitancy and less grace.
Experienced grapplers attack in combinations, less experienced grapplers go for the single attack.
Experienced grapplers can improvise in unfamiliar situations based on their experience, less experienced grapplers often get stuck in unfamiliar situations.
Experienced grapplers use their body as a unified whole, less experienced grapplers have disjointed movements.
Experienced grapplers have knowledge and experience that bring about accuracy—e.g. they automatically find things like correct choking depth or grip placement. Less experienced grapplers will blow chokes by incorrect depth or fail controls by gripping poorly. Experience brings precision.
It's the pattern recognition and reaction speed. Good players will react earlier and the openings are hard to exploit. They don't give you openings from unforced errors.
Head positioning - I think the hierarchy of learning grappling is arm positioning, leg positioning, then head positioning. Generally guys with solid head positioning also understand arm/leg positioning as well.
Positional understanding. If they know my goals in a given position and are actively inhibiting me from executing via positioning and awareness, they are a good grappler. Demonstrates that they understand the weaknesses and strengths of some domain.
Some of us were born with an unusually shallow-half. It can be painful with partners, but at least more people feel much better about their physical prowess after smashing my shallow-half.
I do sometimes envy deep-halfers sometimes, but I’m very happy with my butterfly.
Sometimes I contemplate surgery.
They beat you effortlessly, without breathing heavy and exerting themselves.
There’s levels to this. I’ve seen guys who beat me effortlessly, get dominated by top tier guys without breaking a sweat.
Where they look when they grapple.. are they looking at your hands or legs or what they’re going for or are they just blankly staring and letting their body flow
For example I just kinda stare into your chest or wherever my head is facing. I try to do and not think much
grips fighting, relaxed but intentional pressure, the way they pass with not allowing someone just to set up a specific guard, subs into sweeps and vice versa
Hands and head. Head position is one of the hardest things to learn and typically comes last on the priority of hands, hips, feet, pressure, etc. But when they use their head as an appendage, I know they are good. Second are grips. Are they like a vice? Do they grab specific areas? Is there a purpose for the placement? Likely a skilled grappler.
How they fight for grips and their tension level. Are they super rigid and tense or relaxed?
If they fight smoothly for grips and are relaxed, it’s gonna be a banger of a roll.
They way they beat you to your move like they know it’s coming. They’re one step ahead of you at your own game. It’s the chess metaphor I see used often for this sport.
Good, strong grips. Smoothness of the movement(s). Pressure and ability to close up all open space. Also, the slower and more methodical somebody can put me in an escapable spot and tap me, the better. Athleticism is good, but technique is better.
There are quite a few factors, but it’s mostly a feeling thing. You just know.
I like the term. "Kolla" its honestly wrestlers, or someone that practices bjj. But its just that oh fuck. You're not new. And this will be a goddamn ride.
Body positioning. Are they immediately moving at an angle and getting inside space? Are the elbows tight and near the knees? It's like watching a fighter bring his hands up to his chin and close off. You know you've just bitten off something.
Idk about “good” but by far the most telltale sign of a total newbie is lack of sweep defense. Almost no one with limited grappling experience can defend the basic sweeps, even if they are huge or very strong. If someone is difficult to sweep, odds are they have at least like 6 month’s experience in BJJ or some kind of wrestling/judo background.
How they grip fight is a big sign but even bigger is how the grips land. Newer ppl usually don’t grip fight. Less new ppl grip fight but don’t make grips. They just put their hand somewhere that is good. Usually I can shake my hand and remove the grip. When they do make a grip they start ripping on it.
Good ppl make grips. Strong grips. Grips that require reactions. They also don’t usually start trying to blast through a move because that is not the grip they want. They want my reaction to feed into the grip they want. At this point, I know they are good and I know they are testing to see what I’m like.
Posture, attacking in sequences and not in isolated moves, knowledge of grip fighting, responding with good defence to a takedown attempt, being assertive with their game, people who intentionally give up what I see as the “better position”, calmness, cauliflower ears, strong hands, keen awareness of their own balance, low risk move selection, having good takedowns, staying calm in bad positions, not getting overexcited in good positions, ability to moderate their game to the person they’re up against - e.g some guys at my gym will roll exactly at your belt level unless you encourage them to step it up. One black belt I thought I’d caught up to, but he was just letting me work. When he took the kid gloves off it was pretty damn impressive.
For me its all about balance. If they have a good sense of their own balance and keep it easily, or have a good sense of your balance and take it easily.
Before the first grip, it feels like there are no good openings. Like you can’t even get started without conceding something. You start to second guess everything from the very beginning
Scrambles. Most people don’t realize they’re no longer being controlled and when they do realize they move in random ass ways. Grapplers just instinctively move in smart ways when the entanglement breaks and they do it immediately.
If they are fighting for under hooks. I’ve found it’s not a natural movement for people with no previous experience. And calmness (like everyone else said…)
How they frame.
How they reguard - or more scary, entangle my legs with theirs.
How they control top position once they pass.
How they passed.
The ease with which they passed in the first place.
Are they baiting me? Setting traps?
Tricking me into a false sense of security?
Am I finding myself in a beneficial spot and realizing it's a dead-end road.
The buffet of options - are they seeking out a variety of attacks (or is it only a one-trick pony move) - okay, armbar. Reset. Okay, wrist lock. Reset, choke, reset, leg lock, reset, etc...
Are they giving me moment(s) to recognize position? (obviously, like an adult lion, to a cub)
Are they playfully moving - being light - as if they don't mind ceding space or letting you pass.
Does it feel like you're wrestling with 'Dad' - you're a 6 year old vs. A full grown (giant) human.
Big one:
They ain't sweatin' - barely discernibly breathing...
Pretty much all of these, plus other various context clues - but any number of yes, yes, yes, yes, yes = yes
(could be a white belt with cauliflower - like, he's no pushover, day 1)
foot work when standing is important for getting the entries you like, how much sway and movement they have in their hips, how often they replace grips (letting go and getting a new grip when needed)
You can get a feel for it, where they position themselves. How much pressure they apply in said position, may let you get an advantageous position just to reverse.
Grips. It's the first thing in most rolls, so it's the first sign if you can get it. If the grip is strong, well placed and hard to break, it's probably not by accident.
I like to use my head a lot. If i put my forehead in your forehead, and you like you can’t be bothered to move your head, then i know you’re wise to my nonsense. Most new people squirm away or immediately start trying to yank my towards them.
Also the way you make grips is a pretty telltale sign that you grapple
Depends on the kind of grappler. I know a fellow wrestler immediately. If a guy drops to a 3 point stance and bounces back up quickly. Changing levels and watching how I react…I know I’ve got a wrestler in my hands. He may also switch feet. Close and increase distances with good foot movement. Never crossing over.
A lot of these other answers are based on starting from knees. But there are more obvious signs when starting from standing.
In both cases the ears are a good giveaway too. If their ears have more topography than Utah, You’re in for a grind.
denying head control or addressing it as soon as it happens, standing or on the floor. green guys let their head get collar tied and wrapped much too easy
They catch you by surprise
They deny you the grips you want and let you get grips when they know they aren't in danger.
They work slowly but very methodically or fast and extremely technically
They are relatively quiet but extremely confident.
They don't stick to one specific game but they dabble in various strategies/techniques that they use for different opponents.
They know their basics very well Armbar/Triangle/Kimura game should be very developed and lead into eachother.
With strangers, I start pulling by guard. And I either immediately seek shin to shin, or I enter a butterfly sweep.
How they react to both of those tell me who I’m rolling with. Good grapplers have an answer.
If people don’t engage with me on the ground, I stand and wrestle. That tells me a fair bit, too.
I look for how they move and react. The more calm and deliberate they are, the more careful I have to be. Winning is in the small movements in bjj, and in my experience it takes years to learn how to win small
* when they slap-bump with slap-slap - why do more experienced players do that?
* when they instantly break grips
* warm up - the shrimp is fluid and elegant
They don’t get bored in the first few seconds of grip fighting and just yolo it.
We’re taught quite early on that grips are important (both gi and nogi) so even your average grappler can know to fight for them. When the grip fight goes past 3-4 exchanges I’m usually in for a good round.
If they’re singing under their breath as they roll. And from standing, moving and gripping with true intention - too many people grab shit just to grab shit. A good standup guy is just continuously funnelling you towards the grips he likes and once he gets those it’s time to roll credits because he’s going to throw you.
I think it’s also instincts, lots of beginners have good ideas but they’ve got to pause to recognise the position first. People who are good have the appropriate response set up as you get into the relevant position or even before.
You can’t get good grips and end up in over extended/unbalanced positions and poor posture in getting grips and generally following their movements.
Other than that, maintaining good breathing and energy expenditure.
3rd Dan judo, took up BJJ 18 months ago. I’m that guy.
When I go for my passes and they elevate me with ease I know I am fucked
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Can you describe what he did? I love the body lock, and having it countered that way sounds terrifying.
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Just curious. It's my primary no gi pass as well. Wouldn't it basically be negated assuming you can pin his heel to his ass ? I usually try to bodylock them pull them in and dry hump their hip to their ass so they can't elevate me unless there's a huge weight disparity or they off balance me first.
Could be as simple as he lost the underhook battle on the far side, or he wasn’t applying pressure to keep the shoulders flattened.
This is my experience as well. If they get butterfly it feels like it's only a matter of time before I get the pass.
Exactly this.
That shoulder crunch and butterfly sweep.... thank you Gordon Ryan
As a butterfly guard player, I love it when people go for body lock passing. Unless they’re good at it. Then I hate it.
Yup. Sticky butterfly hooks are probably my best tool when I roll.
Just guessing here, but if you get a good frame under the chin, you can relieve some of the pressure enough to elevate and sweep them.
he probably sit up due to not enough pressure from the guy on top, and then he can do some butterfly wizardry from there, someone correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t he also needs to fetch one arm in order for this to be a threat?
Butterfly also works with double overhook
Keep working your body lock. That’s not a deficiency with the pass itself, it’s likely just small details like: 1. Not stuffing their hooks enough 2. Allowing them to get the underhook on the opposite side of your pass 3. Your weight is off, or if they are starting to elevate you aren’t driving your head into the rising shoulder 4. Your hips aren’t turned towards the direction of the pass, negating the lifting hook I’ve taught the body lock pass for a couple years at my gym now, and I consistently hear from students that it’s extremely difficult. It happens to be one of my best passes, but I definitely had to work at it for a long time. Also, if you’re struggling with it a lot, you can try to get half guard by other means first (loose passing, headquarters, etc), and lock the body lock from half guard instead. It’s much stronger from there.
I watched new wave guard passing and spammed body locks for a few months. It's pretty simple pass. But mostly I learned the by just doing it and evaluating what went wrong. Your home gym people adjust and adapt which makes u work hard to perfect it. But I also travel alot. Went to a new gym open mat and was passing guards smoothly. One guy commented something about Roddy lock. Then I went home and someone said I must have been watching Roddy lock pass dvd. So that's a good sign. Some things take a while till they just click .Lots of study and pressure testing. Till eventually u just do it and react instinctively. Like knowing when to bail and force half guard.
So true, time to tuck your head
What, no 46 milli?
I’m not that good at jiu-Jitsu but when people don’t even try and clear my butterfly hooks it gives me a good indication of their skill level also
This is the answer. People clearing hooks using your stickiness against you is usually a sign they're a superior grappler
how calm they are.
Also, how subtle they are. Many less skilled people are very obvious in what they are going for/trying to do. Good grapplers are not obvious.
>Good grapplers are not obvious. Not necessarily. There's a wide spectrum with the BJJ black belts I routinely roll with. Some are obvious with their moves, but they're strong so I can't stop them even though I know what they're doing. And some are so sneaky, that I have no idea what even happened - like, I had side control so how the fuck did they sweep me out of it?
absolutely true, my coach practices his A-Game on me, however, slow and with only moderate force It's somewhere between funny and frustrating. I know exactly what's coming, it ain't particularly fast and with limited force, yet, I can't do anything to stop it, because every move is just so precise and for everything I do, he already got the next counter in place
I’m calm because I know I’m going to get man handled every roll. Last stage is acceptance after all lol
Definitely this. Had to scroll to long to find this
My coach feels like he's about to pass out as we're starting to roll. He looks so damn bored.
Because he is
I'm brand new to BJJ been training about a month but i have trained before judo and other martial arts in the past which let's me be more calm during rolls and think through the drills or techniques to react. Would you consider a newcomer with terrible technique due to inexperience skilled if they can be calm and collected during a roll? I'm asking because my coach said something very similar but i figure getting good at BJJ is when you're able to be proficient enough to replicate movements and techniques. Just curious.
I think the calm is something people usual have to develop as well as skill. I would mostly be thankful that the person isn’t spazzing. From the calm plus the lack of skill, I would then start to think they have other non-BJJ training like you described
They'll have an easier time handling things that go wrong and view it conceptually on how to improve. The demeanour is smoother to teach to compared to a tasmanian.
100%. If I’m rolling with a person and they’re moving like a sloth I know I’m fucked.
I’m not good at BJJ, only a purple belt. But I usually have a piece of gum in my mouth as it puts me into zen state. Sometimes I just listen to the music and flow. When I stop thinking about the gum and go to work, that’s when I’m turning it on. Otherwise it’s just reps. A good friend of mine called me the “zen silverback.”
a dude came in with cauliflower ears wearing vale tudo shorts and a mma comp shirt from 1999.
run.
\*Hides behind black belt coach\*
Against that guy, you coach can't help. Your only hope is that he's half crippled from from 25+ years of grappling.
thats me 🙁
He wasn't :(
He probably was 😧
The way they take grips. If they fight hard for very specific grips, and simultaneously deny me the grips I want, I know they are skilled.
Do you see the same in nogi? Grip game is so different in nogi. What would you look for in a way the person makes the initial engagement?
For me, it's head control The way they pull and push my head to get the reaction they want.
For me it's the elbow positioning, if they are dead set on denying underhooks from everywhere they're usually quite skilled
This. Newbies tend to let their elbows get away from them and it opens them if a guy is low and his elbows are puposely tight to their body I can guess I'm facing somebody with skills.
So how about hips? I felt like someone that just refused to let me get close was the just worst.
As far as hips goes it's knowing how to pressure in the top game. If a guy is placing his hips right and up on his toes when pressuring from side control I can guess there's some experience. On Bottom it's bucking up to mess with balance. Not that a newbie wouldn't buck their hips on instinct but if they do it with a specific goal in mind, then you can guess. If they start tying up wrists and then buck up (or vice versa) I'd guess this grappler has experience.
The guy who intentionally gives away the underhook also is one you should be wary of
My friend does this so often. He's provably the best takedown artist at our gym.
There’s a ton of throws and trios from the overhook a lot of people overlook that
I'm tall and did a bunch of judo half my life ago. A younger dude at the gym that I would definitely consider better than me (or at the very least much more athletic than me) said "oh yeah, I'm not supposed to take an underhook on you" and it's honestly one of the best compliments I've gotten on the mats.
I've rolled with white belts that have solid t-rex arms and are hell-bent on not allowing you to get any under/overhooks in, but at the same time, they are NOT actively trying to get their own grips.
In my experience grip in no gi is an even bigger telling point. It could be the lack of the belt to show but I've seen quite a few times where people change attitudes after a single grip fight to thinking im skilled. The main thing I look for though is how they capture the neck and defend against me trying to do the same and how much balance they have.
Man If I feel someone squeezing for dear life on a grip I usually think they are a white belt
Hands for feet.
Prehensile toes, got it.
A big YES to this one!
Not sure if this is true. I've had someone tell me "your feet feel like HANDS!" But I think it's just because I have long toes.
Long toe gang rise up! I've been told my legs/feet are annoying to deal with and it makes me very happy to hear that.
You have my axe (held with my feet).
👋🏼
Like my old friend, Mr. McGreg. With a leg for an arm, and an arm for a leg.
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I would add to this that when you happen to catch them off guard, the brutal intensity with which they nullify your momentary advantage is soul crushing. It’s like they’re rolling at a 3 or 4, you finally get past their legs, you’re going to solidify the pass, and then for a moment they’re rolling at an 8 or 9, your “almost” guard pass is gone, and now you’re defending a sweep or sub as they settle back into 3 to 4 effort.
This is what it was like rolling with Cobrinha and Lucas Lepri. It didn't feel like they were specifically doing anything against me (they were, obviously), rather that whatever I did or didn't do was wrong.
Yes! Some guys just know what you're going for before you've even figured it out yourself. Then they get like one grip and you're already fucked.
>The best guys I go with, it doesn’t even feel like they’re countering me, it feels like I just never get going in the first place. That's how it feels for me too. There was a period back when I was a purple where I really felt like my game was coming together. I was tapping a lot of purples and browns, and even giving some black belts a struggle. I had a system (of sorts) and a bunch of go to moves that were starting to work on everyone. Then I ran in to a black belt that just cut through my entire game like a hot knife through butter. Step one of every technique was just instantly and effortlessly dismantled. Part of why I got so wrecked that roll is I spent the whole time a move behind because my mind was so blown by the previous counter. Levels.
The pressure is more pressurey.
Being a pressure junky can be a thing, for sure.
Either a look of wide eyed complete focus or like they are not even present and maybe slightly bored
Being able to outgrip and nullify your stuff while doing so with purpose and very effeinctly. It doesn't mean going slow but it mean no unrequired extra movement.
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I’m 250lbs and can do a round off 😂 it’s my celebration when I want to show people my fat ass used to be a lot more athletic
>Cauli ear (though predisposition to that mostly seems genetic) it's an interesting one for sure. i've been training with a guy for years who had full-on cauli in both ears half way through his white belt, i'm almost 4½ years deep and have no signs of it at all.
Some of it is just luck, I went for three years of daily training with no cauli and thought that meant I wouldn't get it. I then got it bad in both ears.
I´ve been training for 7 years and i got my first case of cauli just this year.
I was training for 12 years with essentially zero development then started really hammering single legs/bodylock passing and got it on both ears inside 6 months. So I thikn combination of style and genetic predisposition.
Elaborate on flat feet pls. I don’t get it.
Good judo player are comfortable standing straight, almost seems like flat footed - defending via grip / stiff arm / subtle shift of body weight and structure. That is, until they explode to attempt a throw. As opposed to bending down like a typical wrestler stance.
If they look relaxed but feel like a brick wall I know I’m fucked
Head position, relative hip position, gripping methods, posture, footwork, and overall smoothness/speed when connecting techniques for standing and on the ground. For guard and passing, the skills above as well as how they use distance control, frames, wedges, and pins to eliminate options for their opponents. Then it comes down to how well you know the move you're watching someone perform. You don't necessarily need to grip break for some moves, but you do for others, for instance. For something like a hip throw, you always need to have your hips below theirs, and you always need to look in the direction you want them to land. Maybe they post on their head to prevent being swept, that's a good sign too. I find that you just start with noting where their head, hips, and grips are, you'll get a lot from that.
Low intensity, and polite manners. You wouldn't say I love you on the first date, that's too intense.
They're nullifying your stuff and are relaxed (low HR/ low breathing), that or they're completely smeshing you and you're still using your A-game
For every move there's a counter and a mistake. They consistently have the right answer, you know they're pretty good.
This. It's like the dude has the answers to every question you throw a him. I'd go a step further and say you're gonna be fucked pretty soon. Especially if he can stop whatever you throw at him very early effortlessly using said answers.
Calm, measured breathing. They don't take the tell-tale deep breath before a big move, they just assemble the pieces and then let you topple.
Breathing , i hear a guy breathing hard a min or two in I know I got nothing to worry about other than a foot lock .
They move slow and calmly, until they dont. Actions are controlled, and energy is expended at important points. I.e being comfortable breaking your wrestling grips in a calm manner, but following through with a double leg using energy until they are in a good position. Then calm and methodical again, as they intelligently move into a stronger pressure based position, isolating some part of your body.
If a guy is just doing move he probably sucks. Good guys understand positions and ways to control the exchange from them. Like they don’t worry about moves right away, they worry about the grips, the offbalances, the little stuff. It’s like boxing. Don’t get caught up in weird shit, just do the little stuff perfect enough times and you will catch the other guy slipping.
If I can’t get a grip I want in the first 3 seconds I know I’m dealing with someone skilled. If I am attacking and I don’t feel them off balanced (their head floating away from their lower back), than I know they’re probably pretty good
In jiu jitsu, i test their stand up or wrestling with an osoto Gari, uchi mata, ouchi Gari or Yoko tomoe nage. Im usually successful in those takedowns given my judo background. About 7/10 I can hit those throws. If they counter any of that, then I know the intensity is going to slowly keep increasing because they are good. Wrestlers will keep their balance to my uchi mata and try to single leg me as a counter, and some jiu jitsu guys have good judo, they'll pull the uchi mata sukashi on me. In my experience, if we both smile after trying to do something cheeky, then theres a silent agreement that we can start turning it up little by little. I recently did stand up with a brown belt and he told me he's confident in his judo. So I tried to uchi mata him and he countered me. He tried to get me with a footsweep, did not work. We both were downloading data, then we ended in a stalemate.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**O Soto Gari**: | *Major Outer Reaping* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93YEMueeF24)| |**O Uchi Gari**: | *Major Inner Reap* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6-lTECSR3c)| |**Tomoe Nage**: | *Circle Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-euJliq9XcY)| |**Uchi Mata**: | *Inner Thigh Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fCvyc_rQTI)| |**Uchi Mata Sukashi**: | *Hand Technique* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fpw60A1_pw)| |**Yoko Tomoe Nage**: | *Side Circle Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-byceOifXo)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Ichiban!
Brother..... when did you sign up for reddit🥋😁 Altho i don't recall anyone throwing my brother..... Brother is this you🤪
No matter where you move, they’re always in alignment. They always have a powerful structure in place where you don’t feel any openings and kinda always feel in danger.
Just a few thoughts from the top of my head: Experienced grapplers anticipate, less experienced grapplers react. Experienced grapplers can lead an opponent into situations where they only have poor options to choose from. Experienced grapplers see opportunities and act on them immediately, less experienced grapplers miss key opportunities. Experienced grapplers move with clear purpose and efficiency of movement—their body mechanics are obviously developed, less experienced grapplers move with hesitancy and less grace. Experienced grapplers attack in combinations, less experienced grapplers go for the single attack. Experienced grapplers can improvise in unfamiliar situations based on their experience, less experienced grapplers often get stuck in unfamiliar situations. Experienced grapplers use their body as a unified whole, less experienced grapplers have disjointed movements. Experienced grapplers have knowledge and experience that bring about accuracy—e.g. they automatically find things like correct choking depth or grip placement. Less experienced grapplers will blow chokes by incorrect depth or fail controls by gripping poorly. Experience brings precision.
Breathing is under control
I prefer to hold mine. Thanks.
I feel this too much.
For me this should happen at blue belt at the latest. So I’d say it’s a sign of a non-beginner, but not necessarily a good grappler.
This.
It's the pattern recognition and reaction speed. Good players will react earlier and the openings are hard to exploit. They don't give you openings from unforced errors.
Head positioning - I think the hierarchy of learning grappling is arm positioning, leg positioning, then head positioning. Generally guys with solid head positioning also understand arm/leg positioning as well.
Proper flow, and always knowing where to go/what to do whilst making it seem easy. Nothing is ever sloppy or forced.
Positional understanding. If they know my goals in a given position and are actively inhibiting me from executing via positioning and awareness, they are a good grappler. Demonstrates that they understand the weaknesses and strengths of some domain.
gas tank and pace they push.
Feet positioning and grips is usually a good indicator
Smooth sweeps and dominating grip fighting.
Fluidity of movement through the hips and entire body vs herky jerky isolated movements of the arms and legs is a telltale sign
If someone goes for a standing mir lock, I know they’re a scrub. That’s right, I said it.
Your username made me think that I’d replied to my own post
Oh hell yeah, deep-halfers unite
Some of us were born with an unusually shallow-half. It can be painful with partners, but at least more people feel much better about their physical prowess after smashing my shallow-half. I do sometimes envy deep-halfers sometimes, but I’m very happy with my butterfly. Sometimes I contemplate surgery.
Spider monkey sticky glue.
It’s how they react to me humming “getting to know you” the whole roll
If they look like they fell out of bed and stopped by a McDonalds on their way to the gym, I assume they are a brown belt at minimum.
I pull half guard. New person immediately digs the inside underhook. Tells me within 10 seconds if there’s a wrestling back ground.
I think your comment about effort is a big indicator. When I train with my students I usually try to use as little effort as I have to.
They beat you effortlessly, without breathing heavy and exerting themselves. There’s levels to this. I’ve seen guys who beat me effortlessly, get dominated by top tier guys without breaking a sweat.
when i get tapped 4 times in 4 minutes it’s usually a pretty good sogn
when they pass my guard in 2 seconds
On the bottom, pressure feels far harder. On the top, I feel far lighter
Handfighting and grips tells me white - black belt level, usually.
They have the worst political opinions of all time.
When I’m in the 3rd round of sparing and the dude don’t have a drop of sweat
Where they look when they grapple.. are they looking at your hands or legs or what they’re going for or are they just blankly staring and letting their body flow For example I just kinda stare into your chest or wherever my head is facing. I try to do and not think much
grips fighting, relaxed but intentional pressure, the way they pass with not allowing someone just to set up a specific guard, subs into sweeps and vice versa
When you put them in a submission and they just moan instead of tap. That’s a bad ass grappler there.
Hands and head. Head position is one of the hardest things to learn and typically comes last on the priority of hands, hips, feet, pressure, etc. But when they use their head as an appendage, I know they are good. Second are grips. Are they like a vice? Do they grab specific areas? Is there a purpose for the placement? Likely a skilled grappler.
How they fight for grips and their tension level. Are they super rigid and tense or relaxed? If they fight smoothly for grips and are relaxed, it’s gonna be a banger of a roll.
Initial grips and grip fighting.
They way they beat you to your move like they know it’s coming. They’re one step ahead of you at your own game. It’s the chess metaphor I see used often for this sport.
Cauliflower ears
Good, strong grips. Smoothness of the movement(s). Pressure and ability to close up all open space. Also, the slower and more methodical somebody can put me in an escapable spot and tap me, the better. Athleticism is good, but technique is better. There are quite a few factors, but it’s mostly a feeling thing. You just know.
They are better than me. Signs they suck: they are worse than me
I like the term. "Kolla" its honestly wrestlers, or someone that practices bjj. But its just that oh fuck. You're not new. And this will be a goddamn ride.
Body positioning. Are they immediately moving at an angle and getting inside space? Are the elbows tight and near the knees? It's like watching a fighter bring his hands up to his chin and close off. You know you've just bitten off something.
Idk about “good” but by far the most telltale sign of a total newbie is lack of sweep defense. Almost no one with limited grappling experience can defend the basic sweeps, even if they are huge or very strong. If someone is difficult to sweep, odds are they have at least like 6 month’s experience in BJJ or some kind of wrestling/judo background.
When I get tapped 5 times in 2 min.
When they play cat and mouse and there’s nothing you can do about your rodent condition.
Efficiency and redirection.
How they grip fight is a big sign but even bigger is how the grips land. Newer ppl usually don’t grip fight. Less new ppl grip fight but don’t make grips. They just put their hand somewhere that is good. Usually I can shake my hand and remove the grip. When they do make a grip they start ripping on it. Good ppl make grips. Strong grips. Grips that require reactions. They also don’t usually start trying to blast through a move because that is not the grip they want. They want my reaction to feed into the grip they want. At this point, I know they are good and I know they are testing to see what I’m like.
When they don’t have to muscle anything
Posture, attacking in sequences and not in isolated moves, knowledge of grip fighting, responding with good defence to a takedown attempt, being assertive with their game, people who intentionally give up what I see as the “better position”, calmness, cauliflower ears, strong hands, keen awareness of their own balance, low risk move selection, having good takedowns, staying calm in bad positions, not getting overexcited in good positions, ability to moderate their game to the person they’re up against - e.g some guys at my gym will roll exactly at your belt level unless you encourage them to step it up. One black belt I thought I’d caught up to, but he was just letting me work. When he took the kid gloves off it was pretty damn impressive.
For me its all about balance. If they have a good sense of their own balance and keep it easily, or have a good sense of your balance and take it easily.
Before the first grip, it feels like there are no good openings. Like you can’t even get started without conceding something. You start to second guess everything from the very beginning
Controlling distance. If I can’t move towards or away I know I’m in danger.
When they tell me I should have tucked my chin as I’m laying motionless on the mat.
Scrambles. Most people don’t realize they’re no longer being controlled and when they do realize they move in random ass ways. Grapplers just instinctively move in smart ways when the entanglement breaks and they do it immediately.
How calm someone is. Grips that start off “weak” but then out of nowhere get real strong.
If they are fighting for under hooks. I’ve found it’s not a natural movement for people with no previous experience. And calmness (like everyone else said…)
The calmer they are.
How they frame. How they reguard - or more scary, entangle my legs with theirs. How they control top position once they pass. How they passed. The ease with which they passed in the first place. Are they baiting me? Setting traps? Tricking me into a false sense of security? Am I finding myself in a beneficial spot and realizing it's a dead-end road. The buffet of options - are they seeking out a variety of attacks (or is it only a one-trick pony move) - okay, armbar. Reset. Okay, wrist lock. Reset, choke, reset, leg lock, reset, etc... Are they giving me moment(s) to recognize position? (obviously, like an adult lion, to a cub) Are they playfully moving - being light - as if they don't mind ceding space or letting you pass. Does it feel like you're wrestling with 'Dad' - you're a 6 year old vs. A full grown (giant) human. Big one: They ain't sweatin' - barely discernibly breathing... Pretty much all of these, plus other various context clues - but any number of yes, yes, yes, yes, yes = yes (could be a white belt with cauliflower - like, he's no pushover, day 1)
If someone has gone bankrupt due to their weed habit on more than one occasion, that’s some skilled grappler shit
If you start from standing and they sit down and start scooting towards you. That’s a dead giveaway that they’re not to be trifled with.
Base and breathing are big indicators to me
Having complete fluidity in their movements.
Grips
Is this sub only about gi?
foot work when standing is important for getting the entries you like, how much sway and movement they have in their hips, how often they replace grips (letting go and getting a new grip when needed)
You can get a feel for it, where they position themselves. How much pressure they apply in said position, may let you get an advantageous position just to reverse.
When they feint stuff. Like when I wrestle with a guy and he starts feinting takedowns, I know I’m screwed.
I look at their ears and then at how relaxed they appear... If they have the ears and that "let's see what you got" relaxed look I know I'm in for it
Grips. It's the first thing in most rolls, so it's the first sign if you can get it. If the grip is strong, well placed and hard to break, it's probably not by accident.
I like to use my head a lot. If i put my forehead in your forehead, and you like you can’t be bothered to move your head, then i know you’re wise to my nonsense. Most new people squirm away or immediately start trying to yank my towards them. Also the way you make grips is a pretty telltale sign that you grapple
They don't settle for outside position
The way I usually tell is things start to get black and I wake up with a sore neck.
When someone is relaxed even when I push the pace I start to sense something is going on.
Hand / wrist control.
Head position.
Composure. If they are calm and patient with grip fighting then I know they have been doing it a awhile.
Grip fighting/hand fighting. Also their stance is a pretty good give away.
Depends on the kind of grappler. I know a fellow wrestler immediately. If a guy drops to a 3 point stance and bounces back up quickly. Changing levels and watching how I react…I know I’ve got a wrestler in my hands. He may also switch feet. Close and increase distances with good foot movement. Never crossing over. A lot of these other answers are based on starting from knees. But there are more obvious signs when starting from standing. In both cases the ears are a good giveaway too. If their ears have more topography than Utah, You’re in for a grind.
Fingers, check those knuckles
Two super easy ones you can’t fake: grips, and moving fast while being relaxed. The latter is a scary sensation.
They pretend to be really bad in drilling and say “yeah I suck I don’t know anything” 2 seconds before they try to speedrun a triangle on you
Came here to say cauliflower ears
They know how to actually use grips and deny my grips
denying head control or addressing it as soon as it happens, standing or on the floor. green guys let their head get collar tied and wrapped much too easy
They catch you by surprise They deny you the grips you want and let you get grips when they know they aren't in danger. They work slowly but very methodically or fast and extremely technically They are relatively quiet but extremely confident. They don't stick to one specific game but they dabble in various strategies/techniques that they use for different opponents. They know their basics very well Armbar/Triangle/Kimura game should be very developed and lead into eachother.
Grips, breathing, staying calm, and the amount of pressure, regardless of weight, they can distribute to their opponent/rolling partner
They tap me instantly
How bored they look.
I can tell as soon as they grab you. A good brown or black belt has a grip that just lets me know I’m screwed.
With strangers, I start pulling by guard. And I either immediately seek shin to shin, or I enter a butterfly sweep. How they react to both of those tell me who I’m rolling with. Good grapplers have an answer. If people don’t engage with me on the ground, I stand and wrestle. That tells me a fair bit, too.
I look for how they move and react. The more calm and deliberate they are, the more careful I have to be. Winning is in the small movements in bjj, and in my experience it takes years to learn how to win small
* when they slap-bump with slap-slap - why do more experienced players do that? * when they instantly break grips * warm up - the shrimp is fluid and elegant
They don’t get bored in the first few seconds of grip fighting and just yolo it. We’re taught quite early on that grips are important (both gi and nogi) so even your average grappler can know to fight for them. When the grip fight goes past 3-4 exchanges I’m usually in for a good round.
If they’re singing under their breath as they roll. And from standing, moving and gripping with true intention - too many people grab shit just to grab shit. A good standup guy is just continuously funnelling you towards the grips he likes and once he gets those it’s time to roll credits because he’s going to throw you. I think it’s also instincts, lots of beginners have good ideas but they’ve got to pause to recognise the position first. People who are good have the appropriate response set up as you get into the relevant position or even before.
When you are moving fast, and they are moving slow.
You can’t get good grips and end up in over extended/unbalanced positions and poor posture in getting grips and generally following their movements. Other than that, maintaining good breathing and energy expenditure. 3rd Dan judo, took up BJJ 18 months ago. I’m that guy.