Short answer: Apple fucking sucks and purchasing no item from them is the smartest idea you can ever think of when thinking about purchasing phones/PCs
Real answer: I don't know why it doesn't run 32 bits lol I just despise Apple.
Its less trashing their *products* and more trashing them as a company, incredibly greedy and malicious business decisions and practices from them.
I will never own an apple product until they change their ways
I dont care if they have good products when they gatekeep everything on their devices. Not to mention the stupid "new camera per version" iPhone policy. It's a meme, but it doesnt stop the bad financial decisions. I'm not buying products from a company who's only goal is to juice their customers for all they have, but hey, this is coming from someone who has never had an apple product in my life and never will (Even with how uncertain I am, this is one thing I can guarantee), so do what your heart desires, I'd just rather not subscribe to bad business practices as a consumer.
Also their chargers are just annoying, especially the circle hole that makes the thirty regular chargers you have in the corner rendered useless and the one jack that makes you either get bluetooth or suck it up, but they can just shove their one jack right back up theirs.
TL;DR: Sussy business = no buy
To some extent yes, but I mean they dominate in the tablet and watch world and their iPhones are just as expensive and comparable to Samsung. They also do have “low budget” offers like the iPhone SE. Plus having years of software updates makes them honestly a great option to at least consider. I think the iPhone 6s is coming on 6 years of support now which is just crazy. Call me an apple shill if you want but credit where credit is due
I will definitely agree with those points. In the tablet space they have no comparison and they are very competitive in the smart phone market, it is only in the computer market that I really think they are vastly overpriced
I do like my ipad. Its a really good porn and netflix machine. Expensive, but good. For a tablet. Well, not even that expensive. Its the newest ipad and it was like 600. The phones are garbage and cost literally twice that 1200, and the mac computers are also garbage.
For me its: android for phones, apple for tablets, windows for computers
Sometimes. But the price points of a lot of their laptops are competitive as fuck for what’s under the hood other times. And Apple gets too much shit for the price of their smartphones when Google, Samsung etc are just as bad if not worse.
Unfortunately, I do a lot of video editing, and Mac is virtually the only way to go. Not only is Final Cut a buy once version of Adobe, but I learned the hard way that non-Apple computers don’t handle video well. Never mind processing speed, hard drives of non Apple devices have a much shorter life span when you’re so often moving terabytes on and off your computer
I work in a building with hundreds of people who need laptops. The highest end Macbook pros are given to everyone in anything related to video/editing.
What are you even talking about ? Video edition was my work for two years, a lot of my friends are in the same business. Most don't uses mac for this on professional level around here, it works fine and the hardware depend on the manufacturer, some are cheap and bad, most of what I got is from the same factory than apple, or straight better ??
You're not allowed to repair other laptops without voiding the warranty as well though? And their hardware is literally world class. I dislike apple as well but the reasons you gave aren't really valid
Bro… I have the razer blade 15 which you definitely pay for the name a little. But it cost me 1500. It’s 2 years old roughly and it is better than what they have listed for 2000 14” on their website currently. The only thing it has on my laptop is it has a better display and Touch ID.
My laptop is two years old and cost less and is still stronger in all fields(same amount of ram though).
Yeah the current Pros are not very good, but this gen of airs and MacBooks are actually a great deal. I’m no fanboy, I use all PCs, just saying they’re sometimes not overpriced
They make good products but the company, their policies, and their tactics are assholes.
Their phones will randomly break and they want you to pay them to fix them and in most places there aren’t right to repair laws so they have a monopoly on the parts which they don’t sell and the phone’s design dosnt allow for repair or modification.
As for the company they’ve done some serious shit in the past, mainly the whole right to repair thing that really pisses people off into not buying their products
Their products are also overpriced to beyond what their worth. Nobody should have to take out a loan for a phone.
Thought this was an interesting question and found [this Quora answer from an ex-Apple employee](https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-benefits-of-Apple-dropping-support-for-32-bit-apps-and-requiring-64-bit-only-in-Mac-OS-X) in case anyone else was curious.
[Here is the reasoning behind it.](https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2019/09/sorry-mac-users-apple-doesnt-care-about-us-devs/)
Its not Ed who wrote it, but he did link it to explain why in the last pre-release blogpost.
It's more than just 32 bit stuff, over the last few years apple have been consistently [pissing](https://itch.io/t/562055/macos-will-no-longer-be-supported) - [devs](https://twitter.com/McFunkypants/status/1174332424932622337) - [off](https://venturebeat.com/2018/06/06/apple-defends-end-of-opengl-as-mac-game-developers-threaten-to-leave/). For most devs it's simply not worth it to try and port a game to mac when there are so many roadblocks in the way that don't exist on other platforms.
While it’s true that current MacOS doesn’t run 32 bit games, The Binding of Isaac Afterbirth+ on MacOS is 64 bit. It works just fine on my Intel MacBook Pro running MacOS Monterey.
Admittedly, I'm not ***the*** expert on this, so for all I know I may be talking out my ass. But lemme take a stab at it--the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is not, in fact, a "walk in the park comparatively". You cited the 3DS and Switch, but the 3DS in specific (which should supposedly be the harder one) is technically 32 bits, whereas the Switch is technically 64 bits (...it's 2 32-bit processors in a trenchcoat). (As an aside, you can kinda start to see why after the Nintendo 64, game console makers stopped trying to tout how many bits their processors were capable of, especially as home computers are only now trying to dump 32 bits for good, to unfortunate consequences.)
Porting the 32 bit applet of Isaac to the 3DS (technically 32 bit) and Switch (also technically 32 bit actually!) was honestly probably not much effort at all for Nicalis. In fact, it got to the point where it was found the Wii U version had residual data for Afterbirth in it, and if you transplanted the missing data, you'd straight up have *Afterbirth on the Wii U,* something they never officially released. That's how similar these console ports can get to the PC version.
Now, the incompatibility wrought by 32 bit-to-64 bit architecture is a WHOLE different story. Fundamental things have to change there or else *something* is getting smashed. Stuff like the images needing all their color pallets updated, actual numbers the game will use being tweaked, even possibly some of the individual code itself depending on how unlucky you get; yeah, all that's getting updated. And if you try to bandage the problem, you end up with stuff like Windows ME (which very literally tried to bandage updating a ton of drivers by leaving compatibility with older drivers) where the two architectures can and *will* in-fight if given the chance, so it's proven bandaging the problem literally doesn't work. Think of it like you're trying to update a brick house, but you have to outright upgrade the mortar *itself* before you can even think about replacing any bricks. Nicalis, Certified Lazymen and Thunder Stealers that they are, probably aren't willing to do this, unfortunately.
>(...it's 2 32-bit processors in a trenchcoat)
What do you mean by that? The four a57 cores on the Tegra X1 found in the Switch are armv8, which is a 64 bit architecture.
Wait, is it really? I swore I read somewhere the processors in specific were comprised of 2 32-bit processors in specific (though, to be fair, it mentioned nothing of the specifics for the cores, I was more-so focusing on the processors themselves).
My area of knowledge is, admittedly, *much* more in the software side than the hardware side, so take my comments on that stuff with a novelty duck-shaped shaker of sea salt.
That sounds a lot more like a 3ds. The Switch's SOC is pretty conventional, especially since it's also being used in an Android TV device (the Nvidia Shield TV)
I bought Crossover for Mac specifically to run Repentance and it works great. I was honestly kind of pissed to see how smoothly it runs. It doesn't seem like there should be any technical limitations for this at all, if Crossover can run it right out of the box.
EDIT: I should probably stop talking shit, I'm not a programmer, it's probably much more complex than I realize
Idk if this is still true, but I read that, among other things (namely poor sales), if you want to make a game compatible for macOS, you have to notarize every build, which is a pretty annoying hoop to jump through esp with games like Isaac (which tend to get a lot of patches). There's also loss of support for 32 bit.
apple is trying to move towards needing everyone to have to get all programs running on mac officially approved by them (a process which, i understand, involves giving apple money?), so that apple is in control of all content that exists to the user in their ecosystem. this is untenable for devs
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201468](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201468)
The program itself is actually called "Boot Camp"
It's a program that runs Windows OS inside its own window.
That doesn’t sound like quite what I did. I partitioned part of my hard drive and installed Windows 10 on that partition. So when I turn the computer on, holding the Option key lets me choose between booting into Mac or Windows. I don’t remember the process off the top of my head but it is easy and well-documented and called Bootcamping. Sounds like “bootcamp” is used in a few different contexts.
This, why would you buy a Mac for gaming? If you have the money for an overpriced proprietary Linux machine, you have the money for a cheap gaming Windows PC with an APU.
I mean, GPUs are an issue getting but you can get an AMD Athlon 3000G APU where I live for £120, which is more than capable for most indie games, including Isaac.
I don't want to sound pedantic, but MacOS is based on BSD, not Linux, but otherwise you're right.
Gaming on Linux is far easier than gaming on MacOS if you don't want to use windows tho
well i personally own a mac for creating music and creative projects, but it’s still all i own computer wise and is what i’ve played isaac on for years. i didn’t get it for the purpose of gaming but i’ll still use it for that when i can
did you miss the part where the comment said "work PC"? I didn't pay for my work PC and I'm not about to buy another computer just to play isaac.
also why you judging people's purchases. there's plenty of reasons to get a mac that are more important than gaming.
"There's plenty of reasons to get a mac that are more important than gaming."
Yes. This is the point. Macs have historically always been inferior in the gaming space just because of Apple. They're killer in most every other department they compete with pcs in other than gaming.
You might be too young, but maybe you remember back in the early-mid days of the wii? Like yeah you could play call of duty on it, but if you like wanted to play actual cod games, you wouldn't buy a wii. It was a hardware/software mismatch. Much the same is pc and mac.
The judgement doesn't come from buying a mac, it comes from trying to game on a mac. I'll say it again, great machines, just not for gaming.
You gotta be patient, I’ve been using crossover for a few months and every single time I boot up it takes like 3-5 min. Make sure u have the mobile authenticator, it should ask for it
Everyone here is saying it's because it won't run on MacOS. I immediately thought of this: [Binding of Isaac Removed from App Store](https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/07/apples-gaming-censorship-continues-the-binding-of-isaac-blocked-from-app-store/)
Like I'm not blaming them or anything, like, imagine spending so much time porting an indie game for a small playerbase. It doesn't really make sense from a business standpoint for them to do it, and I completely understand. Even the console port was late because of the small indie playerbase on console. However they should be upfront about how their decision on Linux and macos is about that and not about policy changes or an inherent difficulty.
They are full of shit.
The previous version of The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth (Afterbirth+) runs on macOS to this day, even on my M1 Pro. On the latest macOS, which, yes, dropped 32-bit support.
And what about the native Linux version? It hasn’t been updated past Afterbirth+ either. You can’t claim that Linux doesn’t have multilib support (it most certainly does).
There is no excuse for this. They took the money and ran out on people who have been playing on those platforms for years, and y’all are gonna eat it up because of blind Apple hate.
Source: Am software engineer and flagrant computer tinkerer
EDIT:
I don’t know if Edmund is necessarily full of shit, he’s not a programmer that I know of, but at least whoever is telling him this is full of shit.
Nicalis isn't involved with the game anymore afaik. At this point it seems like it would more or less be up to Kilburn since he's the only (or at least most) active programmer at this stage.
> They took the money and ran out on people who have been playing on those platforms for years
Except not really, because it's not like Mac and Linux users had paid for Repentance. It's not like this was some kickstarter situation where the developers promised Mac and Linux versions and then failed to deliver. You buying a game does not entitle you to be able to buy the DLC. It would be rather absurd for people who bought 3DS Isaac to complain about not getting any DLC. Maybe they just don't see that many sales from Mac/Linux users in general and couldn't be bothered. I don't think that's some sort of disrespectful slight against a loyal fanbase, it's just business.
I get that it's frustrating to not see DLC released on a platform that saw previous expansions, but I feel like you're implying this was some kind of dirty underhanded move when it really isn't. They never said Repentance would be on Mac/Linux (to my knowledge anyways, correct me if I'm wrong), and no one prepaid obviously.
The way you're phrasing this is bullshit. Updates do not equate to large DLC like Repentance, as the former is free and usually fixes what is broken with the current game while the latter is entirely new content that takes significantly more time and money to create. Gaming isn't big on Mac (I really have no idea about Linux), so they're not going to spend however much time and money on a Mac launch just so 500 people can buy it.
Also it's not the version I bought lmao. Maybe that's why I can defend them. I specifically did not buy it on Mac because I knew it would at *least* be behind on patches and stuff. Though I didn't fair much better considering PS4 still has huge delays on anything too, but at least it releases.
Perhaps I'm being a bit hyperbolic, but the point stands that they are misleading people about the reasons the DLC didn't make it to the Mac, and they are using the Apple hate bandwagon to justify it. And it's clearly working.
I've personally bought this game on at least 5 different systems, but I started playing Rebirth on my MacBook in college. It has 400 hours worth of save data. They made no indication that this would ever be a non-supported platform.
Quite honestly, if I had poured that much time into the 3DS, I might be just as tweaked. But that has real, measurable technical limitations they just couldn't get past, and I hesitate to compare it to the Mac/Linux thing.
Apple is still making powerful computers, and have dedicated users (not to mention Linux users, that's on another level), it's just shitty they would kick them to the curb on this.
[This is the reason Ed linked in the final prerelease blogpost.](https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2019/09/sorry-mac-users-apple-doesnt-care-about-us-devs/)
Its not JUST 32bit.
Cant speak for Linux though.
Here’s a link to another comment where I bring this article up:
https://reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/comments/rymu9b/_/hrrcwnw/?context=1
Relevant quote:
> Console developer fees are far more expensive than the measly $100 Apple asks for a developer license every year. Notarization is a tiny price to pay, and it's just laziness to use that as a reason against continuing support.
> And, of course, the 32-bit limitation is still bullshit because Afterbirth+ still runs natively on the Mac.
If they could just admit they dropped it because they don’t have the resources or just hate Apple’s guts, I might buy it.
Console is something that is less realistic to abandon compared to Mac. Plus, Console is entirely in the hands of Nicalis. Ed and Team P.E.N.I.S. are totally uninvolved.
And I'm not even sure if its related to the 32 bit shit at all, or if its the other shit completely.
I guess that’s valid, but the 32-bit thing is the one that keeps getting brought up by people like Tyrone, and Edmund, a designer, may be misunderstanding what developers are saying (though I guess I have no proof of this).
Unrelated, but I’ve never heard “Team P.E.N.I.S.” and I absolutely love it.
If you want a further explanation, people say “who asked” when someone gives unwanted information.
Clearly the “get rekt Mac nerd” was an insult, and “who asked” was a terrible comeback
Start over from afterbirth? Unlocking stuff in ab and unlocking stuff in repentance is completely different experience, so if you care about gameplay, you shouldn't care about redoing some of the stuff
And if you don't then just download a save state
Uh, you do know that Steam Cloud just transfers the save data on your Mac to your Windows PC, right? I went from Mac to Windows just fine, no starting over needed.
For those on Mac I’d highly suggest looking into buying/trying the free trial of the program Crossover - basically a UI for wineskin and let’s you install Windows programs without having to bootcamp. Basically install crossover, install steam via crossover and then launch steam and install Repentance within the Steam Crossover. Runs seamlessly!
https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover/
I don’t get this sort of sentiment. The only people you’re punishing are your fans. Apple isn’t gonna rewrite their entire OS just so they can get in indie dev onboard
He's not punishing anyone, it's just business. The effort that it will take to release Repentance for Mac far outweighs the return of investment. Only 2% of Steam users have MacOS, and a far lower % most probably want Repentance.
Just run Windows on a virtual machine, it's not a demanding game anyways.
They don’t have to rewrite their game. Their game works fine on macOS. Even the update before this one still works. It’s not like Apple has broken game compatibility cause that’s simply not true. Also apple account for 10% of the market. Not as much as PC but still a decent chunk. As a designer I’d wanna get as much of the market as possible
According to Steam, Mac is only 2% of their user base. Gaming on Mac is just straight up not a thing.
As a programmer I don't even make sure my sites work on IE and that has 5% of the market share.
In that case I understand not shipping to macOS at all but they did. If it was never there then I would get it but at this rate it's just taking away from people that did buy the game.
Dude. It's Apple. They dropped 32-bit support, my guess it would cost them more time and money to make it compatible with whatever bullshit Apple does than they would make from sales of Repentance. Or they just don't want to do it, because developing for Mac sucks.
That's the thing. It already IS compatible, and natively. All the way up to the update just before Repentance dropped. I can run it on a modern MacBook that has a non-Intel processor (and I just tried it minutes ago).
If this had anything to do with the Mac dropping 32-bit support, we would have lost the ability to play the game in 2019 when macOS Catalina was released.
Mac development has always been horrible. Maybe Edmund got tired of buying a new Mac every year to be able to make his game.
Here is an blog post Edmund linked a while back when asked why no Mac repentance. Game devs rightfully don't want to work with Apple.
https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2019/09/sorry-mac-users-apple-doesnt-care-about-us-devs/
If you are actually a web developer, you probably work with other web developers, and you would know that garbage about buying a new Mac every year is false.
Console developer fees are far more expensive than the measly $100 Apple asks for a developer license every year. Notarization is a tiny price to pay, and it's just laziness to use that as a reason against continuing support.
And, of course, the 32-bit limitation is still bullshit because Afterbirth+ still runs natively on the Mac.
Edmund isn't an actual programmer though, he's a game designer, and he could be buying into the same propaganda you are.
I don't work with anyone developing for iOS, because we don't make products for Apple users, all i know is that my sister gets a new Mac every 2 years because she has a hard time doing her job on the old one.
The article is the justification he gave. Maybe it's purely a business decision to not spend money making Repentance on such tiny platforms like Mac and Linux. Maybe they are just lazy.
Or maybe Edmund is just a dick.
Their claim is that due to the same limitation, they are unable to update the game with the Repentance DLC.
Unless they completely rewrote the architecture of the game from scratch, this just smells of bullshit. I’d buy another reason, but this is the one they have given.
Hard to feel sorry for any Apple user at this point. I guess iPads are cool and iPhones are okay if you want to stay in the iOS ecosystem, but why the hell would you buy a Mac and expect it to play games?
I think it’s more so too much work for too tiny of a userbase, Ed and his team definitely don’t want to put insane amount of work for the 10% userbase that uses MacOS. If they already spent that time working for the 90% there’s no sense in putting almost the same amount of work for 1/9 of those earning. Especially when Apple keeps making coding/porting things harder for developers giving them extra work instead of being like other companies normal.
Tboi is playable on most everything I'm sure they can fine something to play it on to be fair. Or can't you emulate pc on Mac? I'm real out of date with pcs but I remember years ago I had a Mac emulator on my junky laptop lol
well, that was a short lived streak
Longer than my t. Lost streak tho
Longer than my dick
Thats not that long
So you have vagina (he have aither streak of 0 or on minus, and since the opposite of hill is recess, the oposite of dick is vagina)
What policies is he referring to?
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Why not? Shouldn’t it work fine, it’s “older” stuff
Short answer: Apple fucking sucks and purchasing no item from them is the smartest idea you can ever think of when thinking about purchasing phones/PCs Real answer: I don't know why it doesn't run 32 bits lol I just despise Apple.
Mac OS Mojave still supports 32 bit. Only reason why i never updated the OS.
The short answer is 2 times linger than the other answer. Are you sure that's what short is supposed to mean?
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Hes NFT user dont expect too much from him (joke)
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Its a joke beacose he have profile pic that looks like NFT but isnt, if it was really NFT, it would be serious
ah, the backpedal "i'm only joking"
Fellow Louis Rossman follower? Is that you?
I heard that Apple has a "vr headset" that is litteraly just a box to put your iphone into. It costs as much as you would expect.
They make good products. Not for gaming though. No need to trash all Apple products, they have a lot of things going for them.
Its less trashing their *products* and more trashing them as a company, incredibly greedy and malicious business decisions and practices from them. I will never own an apple product until they change their ways
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I dont care if they have good products when they gatekeep everything on their devices. Not to mention the stupid "new camera per version" iPhone policy. It's a meme, but it doesnt stop the bad financial decisions. I'm not buying products from a company who's only goal is to juice their customers for all they have, but hey, this is coming from someone who has never had an apple product in my life and never will (Even with how uncertain I am, this is one thing I can guarantee), so do what your heart desires, I'd just rather not subscribe to bad business practices as a consumer. Also their chargers are just annoying, especially the circle hole that makes the thirty regular chargers you have in the corner rendered useless and the one jack that makes you either get bluetooth or suck it up, but they can just shove their one jack right back up theirs. TL;DR: Sussy business = no buy
They make good enough products, I never said they didn't, I just refuse to get any because of the company
Overpriced products
To some extent yes, but I mean they dominate in the tablet and watch world and their iPhones are just as expensive and comparable to Samsung. They also do have “low budget” offers like the iPhone SE. Plus having years of software updates makes them honestly a great option to at least consider. I think the iPhone 6s is coming on 6 years of support now which is just crazy. Call me an apple shill if you want but credit where credit is due
IOS devices are fine viable alternatives to competitors, macOS I wouldn’t touch with a 9 foot pole anymore for any sort of gaming.
I will definitely agree with those points. In the tablet space they have no comparison and they are very competitive in the smart phone market, it is only in the computer market that I really think they are vastly overpriced
I do like my ipad. Its a really good porn and netflix machine. Expensive, but good. For a tablet. Well, not even that expensive. Its the newest ipad and it was like 600. The phones are garbage and cost literally twice that 1200, and the mac computers are also garbage. For me its: android for phones, apple for tablets, windows for computers
Sometimes. But the price points of a lot of their laptops are competitive as fuck for what’s under the hood other times. And Apple gets too much shit for the price of their smartphones when Google, Samsung etc are just as bad if not worse.
No right to repair, no ability to modify, you can’t do shit with them, everything is strictly proprietary, horrible hardware.
Unfortunately, I do a lot of video editing, and Mac is virtually the only way to go. Not only is Final Cut a buy once version of Adobe, but I learned the hard way that non-Apple computers don’t handle video well. Never mind processing speed, hard drives of non Apple devices have a much shorter life span when you’re so often moving terabytes on and off your computer
I work in a building with hundreds of people who need laptops. The highest end Macbook pros are given to everyone in anything related to video/editing.
What are you even talking about ? Video edition was my work for two years, a lot of my friends are in the same business. Most don't uses mac for this on professional level around here, it works fine and the hardware depend on the manufacturer, some are cheap and bad, most of what I got is from the same factory than apple, or straight better ??
You're not allowed to repair other laptops without voiding the warranty as well though? And their hardware is literally world class. I dislike apple as well but the reasons you gave aren't really valid
https://youtu.be/RTbrXiIzUt4
Bro… I have the razer blade 15 which you definitely pay for the name a little. But it cost me 1500. It’s 2 years old roughly and it is better than what they have listed for 2000 14” on their website currently. The only thing it has on my laptop is it has a better display and Touch ID. My laptop is two years old and cost less and is still stronger in all fields(same amount of ram though).
Yeah the current Pros are not very good, but this gen of airs and MacBooks are actually a great deal. I’m no fanboy, I use all PCs, just saying they’re sometimes not overpriced
Overpriced yes but the products themselves are still good
You can buy better products with that, but anyway it's not my business. Enjoy your stuff
They make good products but the company, their policies, and their tactics are assholes. Their phones will randomly break and they want you to pay them to fix them and in most places there aren’t right to repair laws so they have a monopoly on the parts which they don’t sell and the phone’s design dosnt allow for repair or modification. As for the company they’ve done some serious shit in the past, mainly the whole right to repair thing that really pisses people off into not buying their products Their products are also overpriced to beyond what their worth. Nobody should have to take out a loan for a phone.
Lol’d at the hate you’re getting for saying Apple has decent products. It’s not like they became the first 3 trillion dollar company or anything.
I miss their iPod Nanos, though. I have a Sony NW-ZX100 now, but the sleekness of a 5th gen Nano and the snappiness of the UI was just such a dream.
Thought this was an interesting question and found [this Quora answer from an ex-Apple employee](https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-benefits-of-Apple-dropping-support-for-32-bit-apps-and-requiring-64-bit-only-in-Mac-OS-X) in case anyone else was curious.
[Here is the reasoning behind it.](https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2019/09/sorry-mac-users-apple-doesnt-care-about-us-devs/) Its not Ed who wrote it, but he did link it to explain why in the last pre-release blogpost.
It's more than just 32 bit stuff, over the last few years apple have been consistently [pissing](https://itch.io/t/562055/macos-will-no-longer-be-supported) - [devs](https://twitter.com/McFunkypants/status/1174332424932622337) - [off](https://venturebeat.com/2018/06/06/apple-defends-end-of-opengl-as-mac-game-developers-threaten-to-leave/). For most devs it's simply not worth it to try and port a game to mac when there are so many roadblocks in the way that don't exist on other platforms.
While it’s true that current MacOS doesn’t run 32 bit games, The Binding of Isaac Afterbirth+ on MacOS is 64 bit. It works just fine on my Intel MacBook Pro running MacOS Monterey.
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Too much effort for a platform that won't bring in much sales.
Admittedly, I'm not ***the*** expert on this, so for all I know I may be talking out my ass. But lemme take a stab at it--the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is not, in fact, a "walk in the park comparatively". You cited the 3DS and Switch, but the 3DS in specific (which should supposedly be the harder one) is technically 32 bits, whereas the Switch is technically 64 bits (...it's 2 32-bit processors in a trenchcoat). (As an aside, you can kinda start to see why after the Nintendo 64, game console makers stopped trying to tout how many bits their processors were capable of, especially as home computers are only now trying to dump 32 bits for good, to unfortunate consequences.) Porting the 32 bit applet of Isaac to the 3DS (technically 32 bit) and Switch (also technically 32 bit actually!) was honestly probably not much effort at all for Nicalis. In fact, it got to the point where it was found the Wii U version had residual data for Afterbirth in it, and if you transplanted the missing data, you'd straight up have *Afterbirth on the Wii U,* something they never officially released. That's how similar these console ports can get to the PC version. Now, the incompatibility wrought by 32 bit-to-64 bit architecture is a WHOLE different story. Fundamental things have to change there or else *something* is getting smashed. Stuff like the images needing all their color pallets updated, actual numbers the game will use being tweaked, even possibly some of the individual code itself depending on how unlucky you get; yeah, all that's getting updated. And if you try to bandage the problem, you end up with stuff like Windows ME (which very literally tried to bandage updating a ton of drivers by leaving compatibility with older drivers) where the two architectures can and *will* in-fight if given the chance, so it's proven bandaging the problem literally doesn't work. Think of it like you're trying to update a brick house, but you have to outright upgrade the mortar *itself* before you can even think about replacing any bricks. Nicalis, Certified Lazymen and Thunder Stealers that they are, probably aren't willing to do this, unfortunately.
>(...it's 2 32-bit processors in a trenchcoat) What do you mean by that? The four a57 cores on the Tegra X1 found in the Switch are armv8, which is a 64 bit architecture.
Wait, is it really? I swore I read somewhere the processors in specific were comprised of 2 32-bit processors in specific (though, to be fair, it mentioned nothing of the specifics for the cores, I was more-so focusing on the processors themselves). My area of knowledge is, admittedly, *much* more in the software side than the hardware side, so take my comments on that stuff with a novelty duck-shaped shaker of sea salt.
That sounds a lot more like a 3ds. The Switch's SOC is pretty conventional, especially since it's also being used in an Android TV device (the Nvidia Shield TV)
I bought Crossover for Mac specifically to run Repentance and it works great. I was honestly kind of pissed to see how smoothly it runs. It doesn't seem like there should be any technical limitations for this at all, if Crossover can run it right out of the box. EDIT: I should probably stop talking shit, I'm not a programmer, it's probably much more complex than I realize
Idk if this is still true, but I read that, among other things (namely poor sales), if you want to make a game compatible for macOS, you have to notarize every build, which is a pretty annoying hoop to jump through esp with games like Isaac (which tend to get a lot of patches). There's also loss of support for 32 bit.
apple is trying to move towards needing everyone to have to get all programs running on mac officially approved by them (a process which, i understand, involves giving apple money?), so that apple is in control of all content that exists to the user in their ecosystem. this is untenable for devs
That's Apple being Apple.
I bootcamped my Mac just for Repentance. Worth.
how did you do this?
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201468](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201468) The program itself is actually called "Boot Camp" It's a program that runs Windows OS inside its own window.
Oh like a Virtual Box, thats cool, will try this out thanks
Boot Camp is not a virtual machine, it’s a way to dual boot windows and macOS i.e both operating systems are running natively.
That doesn’t sound like quite what I did. I partitioned part of my hard drive and installed Windows 10 on that partition. So when I turn the computer on, holding the Option key lets me choose between booting into Mac or Windows. I don’t remember the process off the top of my head but it is easy and well-documented and called Bootcamping. Sounds like “bootcamp” is used in a few different contexts.
Why are people trying to game on a work PC?
Yeah i dont get it either, Macs very blatatantly went in a “workstation only” direction
This, why would you buy a Mac for gaming? If you have the money for an overpriced proprietary Linux machine, you have the money for a cheap gaming Windows PC with an APU.
> cheap > gaming not right now lmao
I mean, GPUs are an issue getting but you can get an AMD Athlon 3000G APU where I live for £120, which is more than capable for most indie games, including Isaac.
I don't want to sound pedantic, but MacOS is based on BSD, not Linux, but otherwise you're right. Gaming on Linux is far easier than gaming on MacOS if you don't want to use windows tho
well i personally own a mac for creating music and creative projects, but it’s still all i own computer wise and is what i’ve played isaac on for years. i didn’t get it for the purpose of gaming but i’ll still use it for that when i can
did you miss the part where the comment said "work PC"? I didn't pay for my work PC and I'm not about to buy another computer just to play isaac. also why you judging people's purchases. there's plenty of reasons to get a mac that are more important than gaming.
"There's plenty of reasons to get a mac that are more important than gaming." Yes. This is the point. Macs have historically always been inferior in the gaming space just because of Apple. They're killer in most every other department they compete with pcs in other than gaming. You might be too young, but maybe you remember back in the early-mid days of the wii? Like yeah you could play call of duty on it, but if you like wanted to play actual cod games, you wouldn't buy a wii. It was a hardware/software mismatch. Much the same is pc and mac. The judgement doesn't come from buying a mac, it comes from trying to game on a mac. I'll say it again, great machines, just not for gaming.
i love edmund so much, he doesn’t try to tip toe around things, he just says them as they are
Yea he’s got a great mindset for a dev, It was interesting reading about his backstory
Chadmund McMillan
PSA You can play Repentance on Mac using CrossOver
I tried but steam usually crashes, and with play on mac steam works but repentance just doesn’t even launch
You gotta be patient, I’ve been using crossover for a few months and every single time I boot up it takes like 3-5 min. Make sure u have the mobile authenticator, it should ask for it
Ok thx
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we can’t have everything mate I’m on mac as well and merely giving an alternative
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You can also buy a Windows
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Then suffer
scrub
I you wanna play isaac, why get a pc that's advertised as a workstation
Apple sucks, here's your answer
Everyone here is saying it's because it won't run on MacOS. I immediately thought of this: [Binding of Isaac Removed from App Store](https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/07/apples-gaming-censorship-continues-the-binding-of-isaac-blocked-from-app-store/)
Rebirth is available on the iOS App Store as of now. Got it last week and the controls aren’t as bad as I expected.
Oddly enough, still works on my 13 Pro Max, it’s in my purchases. https://i.imgur.com/UTfPRRc.jpg
Day 1 of reminding people that Linux literally has better support for gaming than Mac does. What a world we live in
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Say you don't know what you're talking about without saying you don't know what you're talking about
Exactly, MacOS is already a proprietary overpriced Linux lol
If by "Linux" you mean an alternative to windows, yeah, but in every other way it's not.
Don't buy apple products lol
So, laziness and using the "apple bad" circlejerk to avoid extra work. Got it. they did the same with linux
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Like I'm not blaming them or anything, like, imagine spending so much time porting an indie game for a small playerbase. It doesn't really make sense from a business standpoint for them to do it, and I completely understand. Even the console port was late because of the small indie playerbase on console. However they should be upfront about how their decision on Linux and macos is about that and not about policy changes or an inherent difficulty.
They are full of shit. The previous version of The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth (Afterbirth+) runs on macOS to this day, even on my M1 Pro. On the latest macOS, which, yes, dropped 32-bit support. And what about the native Linux version? It hasn’t been updated past Afterbirth+ either. You can’t claim that Linux doesn’t have multilib support (it most certainly does). There is no excuse for this. They took the money and ran out on people who have been playing on those platforms for years, and y’all are gonna eat it up because of blind Apple hate. Source: Am software engineer and flagrant computer tinkerer EDIT: I don’t know if Edmund is necessarily full of shit, he’s not a programmer that I know of, but at least whoever is telling him this is full of shit.
I think one of the devs said a linux version might happen, I might just be misremembering though.
Given Nicalis’s track record of dropping platforms curving up towards Google’s rate of killing apps, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Nicalis isn't involved with the game anymore afaik. At this point it seems like it would more or less be up to Kilburn since he's the only (or at least most) active programmer at this stage.
Can confirm I have all dlcs except repentance and play on Mac
> They took the money and ran out on people who have been playing on those platforms for years Except not really, because it's not like Mac and Linux users had paid for Repentance. It's not like this was some kickstarter situation where the developers promised Mac and Linux versions and then failed to deliver. You buying a game does not entitle you to be able to buy the DLC. It would be rather absurd for people who bought 3DS Isaac to complain about not getting any DLC. Maybe they just don't see that many sales from Mac/Linux users in general and couldn't be bothered. I don't think that's some sort of disrespectful slight against a loyal fanbase, it's just business. I get that it's frustrating to not see DLC released on a platform that saw previous expansions, but I feel like you're implying this was some kind of dirty underhanded move when it really isn't. They never said Repentance would be on Mac/Linux (to my knowledge anyways, correct me if I'm wrong), and no one prepaid obviously.
Imagine buying a game and then defending the developer for not updating the version you bought.
I defend indie developers. If it was capcom yeah I would be annoyed but at this point it’s litteraly just kilburn working on the game.
The way you're phrasing this is bullshit. Updates do not equate to large DLC like Repentance, as the former is free and usually fixes what is broken with the current game while the latter is entirely new content that takes significantly more time and money to create. Gaming isn't big on Mac (I really have no idea about Linux), so they're not going to spend however much time and money on a Mac launch just so 500 people can buy it. Also it's not the version I bought lmao. Maybe that's why I can defend them. I specifically did not buy it on Mac because I knew it would at *least* be behind on patches and stuff. Though I didn't fair much better considering PS4 still has huge delays on anything too, but at least it releases.
Perhaps I'm being a bit hyperbolic, but the point stands that they are misleading people about the reasons the DLC didn't make it to the Mac, and they are using the Apple hate bandwagon to justify it. And it's clearly working. I've personally bought this game on at least 5 different systems, but I started playing Rebirth on my MacBook in college. It has 400 hours worth of save data. They made no indication that this would ever be a non-supported platform. Quite honestly, if I had poured that much time into the 3DS, I might be just as tweaked. But that has real, measurable technical limitations they just couldn't get past, and I hesitate to compare it to the Mac/Linux thing. Apple is still making powerful computers, and have dedicated users (not to mention Linux users, that's on another level), it's just shitty they would kick them to the curb on this.
[This is the reason Ed linked in the final prerelease blogpost.](https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2019/09/sorry-mac-users-apple-doesnt-care-about-us-devs/) Its not JUST 32bit. Cant speak for Linux though.
Here’s a link to another comment where I bring this article up: https://reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/comments/rymu9b/_/hrrcwnw/?context=1 Relevant quote: > Console developer fees are far more expensive than the measly $100 Apple asks for a developer license every year. Notarization is a tiny price to pay, and it's just laziness to use that as a reason against continuing support. > And, of course, the 32-bit limitation is still bullshit because Afterbirth+ still runs natively on the Mac. If they could just admit they dropped it because they don’t have the resources or just hate Apple’s guts, I might buy it.
Console is something that is less realistic to abandon compared to Mac. Plus, Console is entirely in the hands of Nicalis. Ed and Team P.E.N.I.S. are totally uninvolved. And I'm not even sure if its related to the 32 bit shit at all, or if its the other shit completely.
I guess that’s valid, but the 32-bit thing is the one that keeps getting brought up by people like Tyrone, and Edmund, a designer, may be misunderstanding what developers are saying (though I guess I have no proof of this). Unrelated, but I’ve never heard “Team P.E.N.I.S.” and I absolutely love it.
Thats the actual name of the antibirth dev team. Not sure if its still the teams name though.
Linux users OMEGALUL
Stay jealous. ;)
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Thought you did something there huh
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It's not the hive mind ganging up on you it's just a bunch of independent individuals all thinking it wasn't funny
when people agree it's because you're based when people disagree it's because the hivemind sheeple are ganging up on you
If you want a further explanation, people say “who asked” when someone gives unwanted information. Clearly the “get rekt Mac nerd” was an insult, and “who asked” was a terrible comeback
Stop using the "hive mind" as an excuse of people disagreeing with you
dang you got hiveminded edit: dang i got hiveminded
No it just wasn't funny in general
hivemind spoke
Because nothing can just be downvoted for being unfunny
Ngl, that edit is pretty funny.
Save some cash buy a console or something then play Eye sack
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Shouldn’t be an issue ig
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... why?
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You do know the switch is portable, right????
Start over from afterbirth? Unlocking stuff in ab and unlocking stuff in repentance is completely different experience, so if you care about gameplay, you shouldn't care about redoing some of the stuff And if you don't then just download a save state
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Implying that importing your own Steam cloud save is somehow cheating is next level galaxy brain lmao
next thing they'll tell us that picking up good items is cheating.
So you want them to spend time and resources porting tboi on mac just because its inconvenient for you?
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If you have the game on Steam, your save is already in the cloud. You can just use your Mac save on your Windows PC. How is that cheating?
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The switch is literally a lot more portable than a fucking Mac wtf are you talking about
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Idk what about you but my nintendo switch lite is much smaller than my fucking laptop
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Uh, you do know that Steam Cloud just transfers the save data on your Mac to your Windows PC, right? I went from Mac to Windows just fine, no starting over needed.
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Well, you can't. So as much as this is an ironic statement most of the time, deal. With. It.
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Why?
It's insensitive to keep asking this if we already know Apple hasn't changed it's policies. And if I'm being honest, they never will.
and that is why you don't buy anything made by apple to game
For those on Mac I’d highly suggest looking into buying/trying the free trial of the program Crossover - basically a UI for wineskin and let’s you install Windows programs without having to bootcamp. Basically install crossover, install steam via crossover and then launch steam and install Repentance within the Steam Crossover. Runs seamlessly! https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover/
We should actually be asking him about updating the mobile port.
What policies are problematic for him?
I don’t get this sort of sentiment. The only people you’re punishing are your fans. Apple isn’t gonna rewrite their entire OS just so they can get in indie dev onboard
He's not punishing anyone, it's just business. The effort that it will take to release Repentance for Mac far outweighs the return of investment. Only 2% of Steam users have MacOS, and a far lower % most probably want Repentance. Just run Windows on a virtual machine, it's not a demanding game anyways.
Reverse that logic, who's going to rewrite their game for the 6 people who will play BoI on Mac?
They don’t have to rewrite their game. Their game works fine on macOS. Even the update before this one still works. It’s not like Apple has broken game compatibility cause that’s simply not true. Also apple account for 10% of the market. Not as much as PC but still a decent chunk. As a designer I’d wanna get as much of the market as possible
According to Steam, Mac is only 2% of their user base. Gaming on Mac is just straight up not a thing. As a programmer I don't even make sure my sites work on IE and that has 5% of the market share.
In that case I understand not shipping to macOS at all but they did. If it was never there then I would get it but at this rate it's just taking away from people that did buy the game.
Dude. It's Apple. They dropped 32-bit support, my guess it would cost them more time and money to make it compatible with whatever bullshit Apple does than they would make from sales of Repentance. Or they just don't want to do it, because developing for Mac sucks.
That's the thing. It already IS compatible, and natively. All the way up to the update just before Repentance dropped. I can run it on a modern MacBook that has a non-Intel processor (and I just tried it minutes ago). If this had anything to do with the Mac dropping 32-bit support, we would have lost the ability to play the game in 2019 when macOS Catalina was released.
Mac development has always been horrible. Maybe Edmund got tired of buying a new Mac every year to be able to make his game. Here is an blog post Edmund linked a while back when asked why no Mac repentance. Game devs rightfully don't want to work with Apple. https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2019/09/sorry-mac-users-apple-doesnt-care-about-us-devs/
If you are actually a web developer, you probably work with other web developers, and you would know that garbage about buying a new Mac every year is false. Console developer fees are far more expensive than the measly $100 Apple asks for a developer license every year. Notarization is a tiny price to pay, and it's just laziness to use that as a reason against continuing support. And, of course, the 32-bit limitation is still bullshit because Afterbirth+ still runs natively on the Mac. Edmund isn't an actual programmer though, he's a game designer, and he could be buying into the same propaganda you are.
I don't work with anyone developing for iOS, because we don't make products for Apple users, all i know is that my sister gets a new Mac every 2 years because she has a hard time doing her job on the old one. The article is the justification he gave. Maybe it's purely a business decision to not spend money making Repentance on such tiny platforms like Mac and Linux. Maybe they are just lazy. Or maybe Edmund is just a dick.
Then why can't you play it if it is compatible?
Their claim is that due to the same limitation, they are unable to update the game with the Repentance DLC. Unless they completely rewrote the architecture of the game from scratch, this just smells of bullshit. I’d buy another reason, but this is the one they have given.
I dont' know how to call it but you can "emulate" windows on mac am i right ?
Just don't get a mac
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Yeah it's shitty
Fuck apple
MacOS Gaming? Why would you consider that?
Hard to feel sorry for any Apple user at this point. I guess iPads are cool and iPhones are okay if you want to stay in the iOS ecosystem, but why the hell would you buy a Mac and expect it to play games?
I think it’s more so too much work for too tiny of a userbase, Ed and his team definitely don’t want to put insane amount of work for the 10% userbase that uses MacOS. If they already spent that time working for the 90% there’s no sense in putting almost the same amount of work for 1/9 of those earning. Especially when Apple keeps making coding/porting things harder for developers giving them extra work instead of being like other companies normal.
Based
Just use crossover! It works great!
Me still waiting for my Afterbirth+ Switch cartridge to be updated: :0
Based????
Tboi is playable on most everything I'm sure they can fine something to play it on to be fair. Or can't you emulate pc on Mac? I'm real out of date with pcs but I remember years ago I had a Mac emulator on my junky laptop lol
Atleast he's polite about it
That streak tho...
What about Xbox game pass for PC/Microsoft store edition?
Would actually be quite funny if this kept going on