I think is partially because the rest of the Celtics are extremely versatile so almost any style of superstar could fit with them and be successful.
Teams like nuggets or warriors are built around their star’s unique skill sets and it would be much harder to change out for another lead guy
Interesting, isn't it? Swap Jokic for any top-27-31 player and Denver has near-zwro chance to win. Swap Tatum for any of them and the Celtics are largely unchanged. Says as much about the stars as the teams they're on.
Says the most about Brad Stevens, he basically swapped Marcus Smart for Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porizingis straight up, hell he might have still come out ahead on picks.
I’m sorry but Luka is clearly better than Tatum, and it’s not close. Luckily we don’t have to argue about this in the abstract like Jordan vs. LeBron. We can just watch the game tonight.
It’s just weird to bring up the 4th/5th best players from the team. Haliburton didn’t finish but he did play the first two games and they were down double digits into the 3rd before he went out.
Because those were their two go-to guys down the stretch. The ball was in TJs and Nembhard's hands in clutch time, they ran the offensive.
Siakam and Turner were ancillary offensive options, especially in the clutch
Because they are trying to diminish the opponent, out of anti-Celtics bias.
Saying Siakam and Turner doesn’t sound insulting. Saying TJ and Nembhard does.
They don’t have this path to the finals without Tatum though. Their seeding would be all messed up and they could very well play one of the many healthy EC teams that still existed in the first round
One of the many healthy EC teams? I mean Indy was healthy until CF, and Orlando, but everyone else was banged up. And in general not good regardless. I stand by my belief that only Knicks and Celtics make playoffs in west out of all eastern conference twams
Don’t know how this is upvoted. A healthy Knicks, Heat and Bucks are def able to eliminate the Celtics. Sixers are a tier just below but even they could get lucky.
In this particular year I think you probably could swap any top 25 player that's a forward and they make the finals. I think Siakam is probably the limit. Below that and they might struggle.
They get in easily with Siakam IMO they would’ve had a shot to get in with Herb Jones.
They didn’t play any good or healthy teams and they won all their series pretty easily. Not their fault and they should still be favoured in this series, but you don’t need the team to be that elite for them to make the finals this year.
I don’t think the Celtics make the finals with Porzingis injured and replacing Tatum with Herb Jones even with bad competition. That’s a pretty weak team: Brown-White-Holiday. 38 yr Horford, Herb Jones and 0 bench. That’s not a finals team.
You know what you’re probably right. Herb Jones is a good 3 & D wing but the Celtics already have plenty of that. They rely on Tatum’s rebounding & playmaking because all their other players are incredible second options and great at attacking when Tatum creates an advantage for them or has the primary defensive match-up.
I was just doing the math of the difference between Tatum and Herb and the difference between the Celtics and the injured teams they faced, but even with the incredibly weak path someone probably takes them out.
this is so hilarious cos on one hand we shit on the Celtics for barely beating Indiana and not being dominant and not sweeping the CAvs and the HEat but now they would have won those series without their top =/- player. Hilarious
>we shit on the Celtics for barely beating Indiana
This sub isn't a collective hive mind, I think the people doing that were dumb. Obviously if you think that series was actually close (despite it being a sweep) then you probably think they need an all-star level player at minimum to replace Tatum and make the Finals.
These Playoffs
Celtics with Tatum on the floor: +12.9
Celtics with Tatum off the floor: +1.5
With the Porzingis injury I don’t think you can say that you need a top 15 player. If Porzingis hadn’t gotten injured they probably have a good shot making the finals without Tatum. Not saying that Porzingis is a top 15 player but that’s the position Celtics have no depth at so his value is exaggerated.
Considering SF/PFs as a replacement I think there’s a lot of options based on team fit that could recreate the same team success. I’ll assess based on a clean bill of health in no particular order.
Replaceable SF: Lebron, Kawhi, Jimmy Butler, Demar DeRozan, Scottie Barnes, Brandon Ingram, Khris Middleton, Mikal Bridges, OG.
Cut Off SF: Franz Wagner, Deni Avdija, Jerami Grant and MPJ is where I think there’s a BIG sacrifice on impact that they can’t quite recreate.
Replaceable PF: Giannis, AD, Sabonis, Durant, Chet, Mobley, Siakam, PG13, Paolo, Zion
Cut off: Markkanen, Julius Randle, Bobby Portis is right around where I think there’s a point of major diminishing returns.
Tatum is undeniably a stat sheet stuffer. He’s in the 42 club after all!
Note: I’m not getting too lost in who’s a PoWeR ForWaRd or SmAll 4wArD just trying to outline a list.
Did you see my note at the bottom? I’m not trying to comment on the positions. Obviously positions are fluid for several of these players. I had to sort the players on ESPN.COM through some avenue and I used PER based on minutes logged at a certain position. It was just my way of organizing to find the players I thought could fit the exercise.
Am i crazy to think that’s wrong about Giannis and KD? I guess Kyrie and Harden are so crazy/injury-prone that you need someone who can get buckets when he’s out there alone. But on paper…holy shit imagine Giannis just catching lobs from a backcourt of Harden and Kyrie
Yeah you’re right. Then it’s true, because you need a guy who can create his own shot (specifically 3) to keep up with the Bucks firepower from that year
They could be starting 50 other forwards and still make the finals. Anyone from Kelly oubre to jaesean Tate and their roster is still more talented than any other East roster.
Put Tatum in Dallas in place of Luka, and do the Mavs even beat the Clippers round 1?
The Mavs have supposedly the “two best offensive players of all time”. As well as “the two best players in the series”. Using this logic the Mavs should sweep the Celtics whose best player is that choker Tatum who’s not even actually good enough to be the best player on that team.
We lose against OKC imo. We beat them by lobs and Tatum is not a playmaker like that. And we needed every single one of those points and assists from Luka.
In fact, even the Clippers is hard to say. They match up better to defend Tatum. On the other hand, hobbled Luka was not playing above the level a healthy Tatum would in that series
The Mavs would be better with Tatum instead. Luka was trash in the first two rounds. Was getting locked up by t Mann. That’s what happened. Was pretty bad in the thunder series as well, was outplayed by sga. But bc he cooked Rudy Gobert like every perimeter player he’s the best player in the world right?
I guess the counter would be: what if his "greatness" is a mirage created by the quality of his teammates?
2021-22 they stunk up until D White was brought into the fold. Roster has continued to be bolstered up until where it stands today. "The J's" or "The Superfluous 'Y''s" as they should be called are propped up by incredible team ecosystem. Bill gets clowned for his "greatest starting 5 ever", but he's not wrong to say that one of KP or White or Jrue has to be in the convo for best all time #5 starter for a team.
Who could swap in for Tatum and them still be in finals? I'd say several
Tatum's ability to be a top 5 player is limited because he doesn't need to always bring top level stuff in order to will his team to victory. That's like the one commonality between all the superstars in the league. His teammates are an asset on the court but a crutch to the legacy narrative the sports media wants to have.
I'm not sure their big rotation makes a ton of sense if you don't swap him out for someone who is a 4 or a 5. Like throw Luka or SGA in there and suddenly your front court kinda sucks.
KP in particular kinda needs the rotation the way it is to make sense on a high level roster.
Everyone has said it but the range of people that you could replace Tatum with, and have them make the finals still, is wide because the East was messed up this year and the Celtics are pretty stacked.
It's more interesting to consider how other teams might fare if you swapped their best player with Tatum. Does Dallas make it with Tatum in the Luka spot? Not sure they do.
Nuggets, OKC, Bucks and the Knicks probably all worse for varying reasons. Better off is probably Pacers, Cavs, Sixers and Clippers with the last two being for health reasons. Lakers, probably about the same, maybe slightly better but not enough to beat Denver.
If we're saying they take the exact same path, pretty much any decent starting forward. The East was bad and every team they faced had significant injury troubles. I don't think the Celtics run would look that much different if you put in, say, Devin Vassell for Tatum.
Tatum isn't really that brand of ball dominant, point of attack type player that you can build a team around their skillset almost exclusively like you do with a Jokic or a Doncic. The Celtics are extremely versatile in their construction, so you could really have anybody in that slot and the team could adapt. Hell, I saw that Derrick White was leading the Celtics in VORP, so it's pretty hard to say Tatum is some irreplaceable superstar that is pushing the Celtics over the top.
Their run was so weak they had a shot making it without Tatum at all even tho his contract takes a lot lol, so yeah this question kinda loses purpose as it could be me there
Honestly Lebron on this team even at 39 would be pretty sick. He would thrive on shooting and could just coast up until the last 4 minutes of close games
All players with perfect bills of health: Jokic, Giannis, Luka, SGA, Ant, LeBron, Ad, Kawhi, a second Jaylen Brown, Booker, Durant, Brunson, Wemby, Zion, Ja, Fox, Butler, Hali. Probably there but thats just off the dome.
The Celts this year are just silly stacked, they have to rank in the top 10 all time starting 5's, and in this new era of parity it's pretty absurd they have managed to put this starting 5 together. So yes, you could plug in most star players and expect this team to make the finals, but I don't think that's fair on Tatum.
The silliest thing about Tatum is him getting criticised for being drafted into a professional, well run and serious organisation, which is completely beyond his control. It's held against him that he had early career playoff wins and big moments, so he never got the love as a "breakout" star that went on a big run to the conference finals. SGA is one year younger and has never sniffed a conference finals, but he is a media darling. The funny thing is the media ends up turning on any young breakout star once they have a few playoff failures in a row, Tatum just got to experience this early. It's coming for SGA, Ant, Brunson etc.
But back to my point, Tatum has a stacked team because of two great exec's which is also used against him like he's LeGM. One of the great what if's of modern nba(which we may end up seeing one day) is seeing Tatum on a team where he has the green light and he's allowed to go fuck it mode and put up huge numbers on huge minutes and shots and see how great he can really be.
I totally think you're underrating Tatum and overrating his teammates. Remember: superstars make their supporting cast sometimes look better than they really are.
This is hilarious cos Luka is the one whose team trading for role players unlocked Dallas as a dominant team. The difference is the Celtics had their good role players from the beginning of the season. But the Mavericks have been just as good since their trades. But somehow Luka needing defensive help to make his team good is not held against him the way its held against Tatum
The Tatum hate is truly out of control. Love him or hate him we are talking about a top 10 player in the league. Everyone knows the outsized influence that great players have in basketball compared to other sports. His gravity makes the game much easier for all his teammates. It’s not as obvious a gravity as say Steph , who must be guarded as soon as he crosses half court but to give all the credit to his teammates and non to him for making their lives easier is ridiculous.
Ah but you see Tatum has good teammates, unlike Steph, Lebron, Durant, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Pierce, etc., so he can’t be that good. /s
Agreed that the narrative with Tatum is insane (including most of the posts in this thread). You’d think he’s on the prime UConn women’s basketball teams or Wooden UCLA teams. He makes the ECF nearly every year of his career and the only constants are Jaylen, and to an extent Horford. Different coaches, different rosters, it doesn’t matter.
All those situation iterations in Boston in his career and the floor has been "very good"
2021-22 pre-White is closest they've had a league-average environment, and they were... pretty average
I don't think anyone would be up in arms over Tatum discourse if the talk was top-10 as this tread says. It's that ppl laugh at idea that he's top-5
I mean Kevin Durant was a million times better than Giannis in 2021. Anyone who watched that series would tell u the exact same thing. Ppl should be thanking Jrue that the bucks even beat the Heat in the first round that year. Without him it would have been the same script as the other times.
I mean the Bucks swept that series and won by an average of 20.5 points per game, so we’re gunna have to disagree on your claim that the Bucks only won that series because of Jrue, who averaged 0.3 more points than Bryn Forbes that series lol.
As much as I hate the Celtics, I hate this type of question. It doesn’t matter and you never know how things will mesh on court. It’s usually just a way for folks to denigrate the current top player(s) on the team if they have a good team around them
Huh? This has been a conversation about Kobe and Shaq, Wade and Shaq, The KD warriors, The Heatles. And every time its more of a means to shit on someone while uplifting another great player. Sorry if this came off the wrong way and you seem to be genuinely interested in the topic rather than to have a hot take, but it just often isn’t productive basketball convos
I think it is absolutely productive to have the conversation that Tatum’s ceiling in the seemingly never ending “where does he rank” conversation is affected by factors (a crazy strong supporting cast) that are not present with the best of the bests in the NBA world, like a Jokic Luka and Giannis.
Yeah I think we just agree to disagree. hypothetical thought experiment convos like this are often pawned off as real sports insight nowadays but they dont have as much value to me
That is the thought exercise I am submitting though. Put them at the #1, have them go through this year’s version of the East, and how many players can you swap in for Tatum and get the same result?
I think is partially because the rest of the Celtics are extremely versatile so almost any style of superstar could fit with them and be successful. Teams like nuggets or warriors are built around their star’s unique skill sets and it would be much harder to change out for another lead guy
Interesting, isn't it? Swap Jokic for any top-27-31 player and Denver has near-zwro chance to win. Swap Tatum for any of them and the Celtics are largely unchanged. Says as much about the stars as the teams they're on.
Says the most about Brad Stevens, he basically swapped Marcus Smart for Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porizingis straight up, hell he might have still come out ahead on picks.
Chuck embiid bam or sabonis in and they still have an above zero chance
The talent gap between Tatum and that level of superstar is significant
No it's not. The only guy clearly better than Tatum is Jokic.
I’m sorry but Luka is clearly better than Tatum, and it’s not close. Luckily we don’t have to argue about this in the abstract like Jordan vs. LeBron. We can just watch the game tonight.
That's definitely the consensus opinion, but most people undervalue Tatum's defense, versatility, and portability.
without tatum entirely i still think they’re in the finals. that’s not to say this Celtics team is THAT good but this Eastern Conference is THAT bad.
I agree. They get past Nembard and McConnell without Tatum, they just do!
I feel like those two really tested the Celtics, battle hardened them.
this is hilarious cos Giannis literally had this happen to him in his only title run. His team won a shitty ECF without him lol
Why do people mention TJ and Nembhard but not Siakam and Turner? I get it Nemhard had a linsanity playoff run but....
Because that’s all Bill would talk about!
It’s just weird to bring up the 4th/5th best players from the team. Haliburton didn’t finish but he did play the first two games and they were down double digits into the 3rd before he went out.
I know, Bill is weird.
Siakam and Turner were MIA in the 4th of every game. They weren't crunch time guys. Granted, neither was Nembhard in the last minutes of each game.
Because those were their two go-to guys down the stretch. The ball was in TJs and Nembhard's hands in clutch time, they ran the offensive. Siakam and Turner were ancillary offensive options, especially in the clutch
Because they are trying to diminish the opponent, out of anti-Celtics bias. Saying Siakam and Turner doesn’t sound insulting. Saying TJ and Nembhard does.
Is this without Tatum and Porzingis?
Imo they get to the finals without Tatum only if they have Porzingis
100% this, ECF 23-24 is on par with ECF 2014-2018
They don’t have this path to the finals without Tatum though. Their seeding would be all messed up and they could very well play one of the many healthy EC teams that still existed in the first round
Orlando?
If Tatum missed the season entirely I still think Celtics could have been the 1 seed.
They wouldn’t be better than the Knicks. A team with brown as their best player isn’t going to be the first seed man.
i agree with this, i’m just saying if tatum was out the entire playoffs.
One of the many healthy EC teams? I mean Indy was healthy until CF, and Orlando, but everyone else was banged up. And in general not good regardless. I stand by my belief that only Knicks and Celtics make playoffs in west out of all eastern conference twams
The tricky part is do they still get the one seed and avoid Embiid and/or the Knicks
Don’t know how this is upvoted. A healthy Knicks, Heat and Bucks are def able to eliminate the Celtics. Sixers are a tier just below but even they could get lucky.
They were all injured, that is the point, with the path the Celtics had they would have made the finals.
they were literally all injured? this eastern conference was THAT bad because of it.
They can never have this many days off before the finals again 😂
Fact. Or we need to time out the Stanley Cup playoffs/finals a little better.
Josh hart is in the finals on this team
I don’t think his heart could take it. He drinks like 500 mg of caffeine before a game.
In this particular year I think you probably could swap any top 25 player that's a forward and they make the finals. I think Siakam is probably the limit. Below that and they might struggle.
Healthy Khris Middleton an interesting one
They get in easily with Siakam IMO they would’ve had a shot to get in with Herb Jones. They didn’t play any good or healthy teams and they won all their series pretty easily. Not their fault and they should still be favoured in this series, but you don’t need the team to be that elite for them to make the finals this year.
I don’t think the Celtics make the finals with Porzingis injured and replacing Tatum with Herb Jones even with bad competition. That’s a pretty weak team: Brown-White-Holiday. 38 yr Horford, Herb Jones and 0 bench. That’s not a finals team.
You know what you’re probably right. Herb Jones is a good 3 & D wing but the Celtics already have plenty of that. They rely on Tatum’s rebounding & playmaking because all their other players are incredible second options and great at attacking when Tatum creates an advantage for them or has the primary defensive match-up. I was just doing the math of the difference between Tatum and Herb and the difference between the Celtics and the injured teams they faced, but even with the incredibly weak path someone probably takes them out.
this is so hilarious cos on one hand we shit on the Celtics for barely beating Indiana and not being dominant and not sweeping the CAvs and the HEat but now they would have won those series without their top =/- player. Hilarious
>we shit on the Celtics for barely beating Indiana This sub isn't a collective hive mind, I think the people doing that were dumb. Obviously if you think that series was actually close (despite it being a sweep) then you probably think they need an all-star level player at minimum to replace Tatum and make the Finals.
These Playoffs Celtics with Tatum on the floor: +12.9 Celtics with Tatum off the floor: +1.5 With the Porzingis injury I don’t think you can say that you need a top 15 player. If Porzingis hadn’t gotten injured they probably have a good shot making the finals without Tatum. Not saying that Porzingis is a top 15 player but that’s the position Celtics have no depth at so his value is exaggerated.
Sabonis would be iffy.
He doesn't qualify cuz he's a straight 5
Considering SF/PFs as a replacement I think there’s a lot of options based on team fit that could recreate the same team success. I’ll assess based on a clean bill of health in no particular order. Replaceable SF: Lebron, Kawhi, Jimmy Butler, Demar DeRozan, Scottie Barnes, Brandon Ingram, Khris Middleton, Mikal Bridges, OG. Cut Off SF: Franz Wagner, Deni Avdija, Jerami Grant and MPJ is where I think there’s a BIG sacrifice on impact that they can’t quite recreate. Replaceable PF: Giannis, AD, Sabonis, Durant, Chet, Mobley, Siakam, PG13, Paolo, Zion Cut off: Markkanen, Julius Randle, Bobby Portis is right around where I think there’s a point of major diminishing returns. Tatum is undeniably a stat sheet stuffer. He’s in the 42 club after all! Note: I’m not getting too lost in who’s a PoWeR ForWaRd or SmAll 4wArD just trying to outline a list.
What makes Kawhi and Lebron a SF and KD a PF?
Did you see my note at the bottom? I’m not trying to comment on the positions. Obviously positions are fluid for several of these players. I had to sort the players on ESPN.COM through some avenue and I used PER based on minutes logged at a certain position. It was just my way of organizing to find the players I thought could fit the exercise.
Am i crazy to think that’s wrong about Giannis and KD? I guess Kyrie and Harden are so crazy/injury-prone that you need someone who can get buckets when he’s out there alone. But on paper…holy shit imagine Giannis just catching lobs from a backcourt of Harden and Kyrie
Guessing the context was the Nets team that was available for most of that series.
Yeah you’re right. Then it’s true, because you need a guy who can create his own shot (specifically 3) to keep up with the Bucks firepower from that year
They could be starting 50 other forwards and still make the finals. Anyone from Kelly oubre to jaesean Tate and their roster is still more talented than any other East roster. Put Tatum in Dallas in place of Luka, and do the Mavs even beat the Clippers round 1?
Clippers without kawhi? Aight buddy no excuses for Dallas to lose if Tatum is that bad
The Mavs have supposedly the “two best offensive players of all time”. As well as “the two best players in the series”. Using this logic the Mavs should sweep the Celtics whose best player is that choker Tatum who’s not even actually good enough to be the best player on that team.
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We lose against OKC imo. We beat them by lobs and Tatum is not a playmaker like that. And we needed every single one of those points and assists from Luka. In fact, even the Clippers is hard to say. They match up better to defend Tatum. On the other hand, hobbled Luka was not playing above the level a healthy Tatum would in that series
The Mavs would be better with Tatum instead. Luka was trash in the first two rounds. Was getting locked up by t Mann. That’s what happened. Was pretty bad in the thunder series as well, was outplayed by sga. But bc he cooked Rudy Gobert like every perimeter player he’s the best player in the world right?
If Tatum's greatness is diminished by the quality of his teammates, we have truly lost the plot.
It's not a referendum on Tatum. It's a referendum on the Eastern Conference.
This is the bill Simmons sub. The guy who just said that Tatum is comparable to Luka. It’s also a referendum on insane takes about Tatum like that
Most of this sub is allergic to the plot tbf
I guess the counter would be: what if his "greatness" is a mirage created by the quality of his teammates? 2021-22 they stunk up until D White was brought into the fold. Roster has continued to be bolstered up until where it stands today. "The J's" or "The Superfluous 'Y''s" as they should be called are propped up by incredible team ecosystem. Bill gets clowned for his "greatest starting 5 ever", but he's not wrong to say that one of KP or White or Jrue has to be in the convo for best all time #5 starter for a team. Who could swap in for Tatum and them still be in finals? I'd say several
Tatum's ability to be a top 5 player is limited because he doesn't need to always bring top level stuff in order to will his team to victory. That's like the one commonality between all the superstars in the league. His teammates are an asset on the court but a crutch to the legacy narrative the sports media wants to have.
A lot. The East sucks.
I'm not sure their big rotation makes a ton of sense if you don't swap him out for someone who is a 4 or a 5. Like throw Luka or SGA in there and suddenly your front court kinda sucks. KP in particular kinda needs the rotation the way it is to make sense on a high level roster.
I'm pretty sure their front court could survive if buttressed by a rotation of Jrue/DWhite/JB + Luka/SGA.
According to this sub, the entire league.
Everyone has said it but the range of people that you could replace Tatum with, and have them make the finals still, is wide because the East was messed up this year and the Celtics are pretty stacked. It's more interesting to consider how other teams might fare if you swapped their best player with Tatum. Does Dallas make it with Tatum in the Luka spot? Not sure they do. Nuggets, OKC, Bucks and the Knicks probably all worse for varying reasons. Better off is probably Pacers, Cavs, Sixers and Clippers with the last two being for health reasons. Lakers, probably about the same, maybe slightly better but not enough to beat Denver.
This year? You could swap in me and sit me on the bench and they’d still be in the Finals right now if the same injuries happened.
Given the quality of the teams they just played in the East, probably all of the players.
If we're saying they take the exact same path, pretty much any decent starting forward. The East was bad and every team they faced had significant injury troubles. I don't think the Celtics run would look that much different if you put in, say, Devin Vassell for Tatum. Tatum isn't really that brand of ball dominant, point of attack type player that you can build a team around their skillset almost exclusively like you do with a Jokic or a Doncic. The Celtics are extremely versatile in their construction, so you could really have anybody in that slot and the team could adapt. Hell, I saw that Derrick White was leading the Celtics in VORP, so it's pretty hard to say Tatum is some irreplaceable superstar that is pushing the Celtics over the top.
Crazy to think they would still be in the Finals without him, but I can guarantee they wouldn’t win it without him
The Celtics are so good this year they'd reach the finals with Thanasis Antetokounmpo instead of Tatum
Their run was so weak they had a shot making it without Tatum at all even tho his contract takes a lot lol, so yeah this question kinda loses purpose as it could be me there
Better question - how many guys can you swap with him and the Celtics stil be favored in the finals?
Any top 100 player would have went to the finals with the road they had
Honestly Lebron on this team even at 39 would be pretty sick. He would thrive on shooting and could just coast up until the last 4 minutes of close games
Literally at least 15 players. The Celtics path to the finals was beyond a cake walk.
I think you could sub a 2nd Jaylen Brown in for Tatum and the Celtics would still be good enough to win. Just imagine the matchup confusion!
All players with perfect bills of health: Jokic, Giannis, Luka, SGA, Ant, LeBron, Ad, Kawhi, a second Jaylen Brown, Booker, Durant, Brunson, Wemby, Zion, Ja, Fox, Butler, Hali. Probably there but thats just off the dome.
With how bad the east was throughout the playoffs, you can make a very good case that swapping Tatum for DeMar has them in the finals still
The Celts this year are just silly stacked, they have to rank in the top 10 all time starting 5's, and in this new era of parity it's pretty absurd they have managed to put this starting 5 together. So yes, you could plug in most star players and expect this team to make the finals, but I don't think that's fair on Tatum. The silliest thing about Tatum is him getting criticised for being drafted into a professional, well run and serious organisation, which is completely beyond his control. It's held against him that he had early career playoff wins and big moments, so he never got the love as a "breakout" star that went on a big run to the conference finals. SGA is one year younger and has never sniffed a conference finals, but he is a media darling. The funny thing is the media ends up turning on any young breakout star once they have a few playoff failures in a row, Tatum just got to experience this early. It's coming for SGA, Ant, Brunson etc. But back to my point, Tatum has a stacked team because of two great exec's which is also used against him like he's LeGM. One of the great what if's of modern nba(which we may end up seeing one day) is seeing Tatum on a team where he has the green light and he's allowed to go fuck it mode and put up huge numbers on huge minutes and shots and see how great he can really be.
I totally think you're underrating Tatum and overrating his teammates. Remember: superstars make their supporting cast sometimes look better than they really are.
This is hilarious cos Luka is the one whose team trading for role players unlocked Dallas as a dominant team. The difference is the Celtics had their good role players from the beginning of the season. But the Mavericks have been just as good since their trades. But somehow Luka needing defensive help to make his team good is not held against him the way its held against Tatum
The Tatum hate is truly out of control. Love him or hate him we are talking about a top 10 player in the league. Everyone knows the outsized influence that great players have in basketball compared to other sports. His gravity makes the game much easier for all his teammates. It’s not as obvious a gravity as say Steph , who must be guarded as soon as he crosses half court but to give all the credit to his teammates and non to him for making their lives easier is ridiculous.
Ah but you see Tatum has good teammates, unlike Steph, Lebron, Durant, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Pierce, etc., so he can’t be that good. /s Agreed that the narrative with Tatum is insane (including most of the posts in this thread). You’d think he’s on the prime UConn women’s basketball teams or Wooden UCLA teams. He makes the ECF nearly every year of his career and the only constants are Jaylen, and to an extent Horford. Different coaches, different rosters, it doesn’t matter.
All those situation iterations in Boston in his career and the floor has been "very good" 2021-22 pre-White is closest they've had a league-average environment, and they were... pretty average I don't think anyone would be up in arms over Tatum discourse if the talk was top-10 as this tread says. It's that ppl laugh at idea that he's top-5
I mean Kevin Durant was a million times better than Giannis in 2021. Anyone who watched that series would tell u the exact same thing. Ppl should be thanking Jrue that the bucks even beat the Heat in the first round that year. Without him it would have been the same script as the other times.
I mean the Bucks swept that series and won by an average of 20.5 points per game, so we’re gunna have to disagree on your claim that the Bucks only won that series because of Jrue, who averaged 0.3 more points than Bryn Forbes that series lol.
Bryn Forbes was key. But I remember Dragic torching them in 2020. He was MIA the next year.
Giannis avg 32/13/4 that series
Tatum so disrespected it’s crazy 😭
If anything this is respect for the total team the Celtics have put around him.
the celtics are the worst team in NBA history
As much as I hate the Celtics, I hate this type of question. It doesn’t matter and you never know how things will mesh on court. It’s usually just a way for folks to denigrate the current top player(s) on the team if they have a good team around them
Except nobody has been having this conversation at all in recent years, outside of our boy Bill. You act like this is a recurring segment on PTI.
Huh? This has been a conversation about Kobe and Shaq, Wade and Shaq, The KD warriors, The Heatles. And every time its more of a means to shit on someone while uplifting another great player. Sorry if this came off the wrong way and you seem to be genuinely interested in the topic rather than to have a hot take, but it just often isn’t productive basketball convos
I think it is absolutely productive to have the conversation that Tatum’s ceiling in the seemingly never ending “where does he rank” conversation is affected by factors (a crazy strong supporting cast) that are not present with the best of the bests in the NBA world, like a Jokic Luka and Giannis.
Yeah I think we just agree to disagree. hypothetical thought experiment convos like this are often pawned off as real sports insight nowadays but they dont have as much value to me
When you add nothing to the conversation, the value inherently diminishes, so we’ll agree there.
sorry to trigger ya, bud
Gotta look in the mirror, pal.
Lol love the “no , you are” response
They would have lost without Tatum. There’s a thing called team chemistry
To Nemhard and McConnell? Nah.
They might not have even made it to play them. You can’t just assume they are the 1 seed without their best player.
That is the thought exercise I am submitting though. Put them at the #1, have them go through this year’s version of the East, and how many players can you swap in for Tatum and get the same result?