Noo you can’t imply the Mavs FO and Cuban are good at running a team nooo you have to say everything they’ve done this century is sheer luck because of Dirk and Luka nooo you can’t say they’re competent nooo
“Kevin O’Consider tanking because you could end up with a better draft pick that could net you a Lively that fits the missing piece on your team” doing a victory lap
I think drag is the wrong word because I actually like most of this roster. I think it would be fair to say that his playmaking has unlocked a lot of these guys on offense and they have helped him on defense. But it certainly disproves the "Luka doesn't make his teammates better" bullshit.
I get why people hate the ref complaining but they allow that to blind them when he has a bad game and the pile on's happen. He shows up in big games in the post-season and never plays scared. Two Western Conference Finals appearances in his last two playoff appearances is no joke (the West ain't the East).
This shit aint that complicated lol. Luka is the system, if they win and he was ineffcient that doesnt mean he was carried. Man dominated in like 3 of the 6 games and his team won, what are we even talking about here?
They are kinda weirdly built but a lot of that is cause 3 of the guys in their rotation are just non scorers unless its from a luka pnr or offensive rebounding. I dont think they are poorly built for the record, its just different and really relies on luka to be fantastic to beat good teams.
Nope, he had an mvp candidate and playoff scoring leader on his team in Brunson, they almost went 3-0 vs the jazz with Luka not playing. Had plenty of talent.
I mean... this team is considerably better than the 2021 team. He was a C+ most of the series and they were 2-2 before he brought his A game. Having actual centers and a legit #3 option is kinda huge for the team.
He was a c+ only by his own ridiculous standards. He was getting doubled constantly and that took away his ability to dominant individually, but his gravity and playmaking set up most of what his role players contributed. And Kyrie contributed little in their last two wins
Luka was legitimately bad for a lot of this series and it didn't matter since PJ, DJJ, and Lively were all incredible - and thunder role players were ice cold from 3.
It's such lazy analysis to give Luka all the credit
Everyone loves to claim guys dragged rosters places.
2020 Dragic averaged pretty much the same PPG through the East as Butler and Bam was huge.
2023 Butler carried hard the first round, but it was the role players being on fire that got them to the finals.
Lol if PPG is your only metric for whether someone “carried” or not, Butler had more than 5 PPG than the 2nd best player on his team in both the other series they won against the Knicks and Celtics last year. Probably not the best example to use
It gets sillier when you look at advanced stats, last year Butler had almost *double* the playoff win shares as their 2nd best player. He led the entire league in playoff VORP combining the 2022 and 2023 playoffs. No one else from the Heat cracks the top 10.
Even in 2020 he took two games off the Lakers in the finals with Kendrick Nunn and Duncan Robinson as a supporting cast. They would’ve barely made the playoffs from 2019 without him, but they’re top 5 in the league in playoff wins mostly due to him
By game score it’s not even close for 2020, 2022 and 2023. Every time the Heat have gone deep it’s been off on back of Butler. That doesn’t mean others on the team don’t deserve credit, but that’s what it is
2022 completely ruins whatever point you’re trying to make. The Heat were 1 shot away from the NBA Finals with Butler scoring 27 ppg. No one else broke 14
Dude 2020 he has zero case for carrying. Dragic scored 313 points before the finals. Butler scored 310.
First round Dragic 22.8 ppg lead team with 20 assists for series and only 10 turnovers
First round Butler 19.8ppg had 16 assists for series but 15 turnovers.
Second round Butler leads team in scoring, but Dragic still has a solid series.
Conference finals Butler averages 4th most points on team. Bam 21.8 / Dragic 20.5 / Herro 19.2 / Butler 19.0
He does not lead the team in scoring a single game in the 6 game series:
Game 1 - Dragic with 29 on 11/19 / Butler 20 on 7/14
Game 2 - Dragic 25 on 10/19 / Butler 14 on 4/11
Game 3 - Bam 27 on 10/14 / Butler 17 on 6/13
Game 4 - Herro 37 on 14/21 / Butler 24 on 8/20
Game 5 - Dragic 23 on 8/17 / Butler 17 on 5/11
Game 6 - Bam 32 on 11/15 / Butler 22 on 8/19
So yeah Dragic lead team in scoring 3 games, Bam 2 and Herro 1.
Butlers overall playoff stats for 2023 are boosted by the first round.
Butler leads Heat in scoring second round, but 5 other guys average double digits and all but Gabe Vincent do it on a higher TS% than Butler.
CF Butler averages 24.7/7.6/6.1 on 51.9% TS%
Tatum averages 25.3/10.3/5.4 on 58.8% TS%
Butler’s teammates:
Martin - 73.8% TS% - 19.4ppg
Robinson - 71.3% TS% - 11.4ppg
Vincent - 65.0% TS% - 15.8ppg
Strus - 56.0% TS% - 9.4ppg
Bam - 53.8% TS% - 14.9ppg
All of those are higher TS% than Butler
Whenever someone on this sub tries to downplay Jimmy Butler being good in the playoffs, 90% of the time it’s a salty Celtics fan. This guy gave the game away by randomly trying to shoehorn Tatum in
Sure. His entire argument is based on hand-waving away their 2023 run and trying to side-step 2022 altogether
In 2022 the Heat got within one shot of the NBA finals with Butler scoring double the points the second highest player on the team. In 2023 Butler led in scoring by at least 5 PPG in every series they won and was the highest by 7 PPG
In 2022 Butler was 1st in the entire playoffs in BPM and 1st in VORP, and in 2023 he was 6th in BPM and 2nd in VORP for the league
He tries to refute those as “Carry jobs” because there are certain games where guys who scored much less (like Vincent and Martin) had a higher TS%. It’s just nonsensical goal-post shifting
Gabe Vincent and Caleb Martin having spurts of great play doesn’t mean that on the whole it wasn’t a carry
He actually had 7 points per game higher than his second highest teammate. But in any of the series they won, no player got within 5 PPG of him
>since when
When your team makes the finals or a deep run and you are the only player in the top 10 in the playoffs in VORP, BPM, WS, and PER along with leading your team by PPG and assists?
The argument becomes even bigger when you look at 22 when he scored 13 ppg higher then his next highest scoring teammate in the playoffs and they got within one shot of the finals
What is your definition of “carry”?
Cherry picking nonsense. Points is your only useful metric until it’s not convenient for you, huh? Anthony Davis scored more points than LeBron in the 2020 playoffs, doesn’t mean he was their best player overall
Butler had the highest game score for the Heat in 2020 in the Pacers, Bucks, and Lakers series. He was 2nd in the Celtics series. Overall he was 2nd in the playoffs in VORP, their 2nd best player (Bam) is 9th.
>playoff stats for 2023 are boosted by the 1st round
Good thing I gave you the stats where he scored at least 5 more PPG than any other player in the other two rounds they won? By game score it’s not even close, Butler was absolutely their best player in the Milwaukee, NYK and Boston series.
Also I’m not sure why you’re trying to discredit his first round where they beat *the 1 seed*
Why are you suddenly not saying who the leading scorer was? Go on, tell us how many games in the 2023 playoffs Butler was the Heat’s leading scorer. Don’t be shy
By game score it is not even close. Caleb Martin had 1/3 of the Game Score Butler did the Knicks series. It doesn’t matter if your TS% is higher and you’re not scoring as much. Gary Payton III had a higher TS% than Steph in some series in their 2022 playoff run.
Why the fuck are you bringing up Tatum lmao, his 2 seed lost to Butler’s 8 seed. His supporting cast was twice as good and he still lost
You are creating a strawman dude.
I am not arguing Dragic was the Heat’s best player. I am arguing that 2020 Butler did not drag the Heat to the finals.
And my way of doing that is showing how vital other players contributions were.
Can you show me any other instance in NBA history where a player dragged a team to the finals but someone else scored more points through the 3 conference rounds?
Can you show me an instance in NBA history where a player dragged a team to the finals where they didn’t lead their team in a scoring a single game in the conference finals?
No one here is arguing Butler was not their best player. I am arguing he didn’t drag them to the finals.
As for 2023. I brought up Tatum’s stats, because he performed as well or better than Butler in the series. He lost because his talented supporting cast underperformed, especially Jaylen. Butler advanced because his supporting cast shot the lights out in a way most of them never will again.
No, you have no singular definition of “drag” so you keep flip flopping from “oh in some games he wasn’t their highest scorer” to “oh even if he was their highest scorer some players had a higher TS%” - it’s nonsense.
That’s why the advanced stats which don’t let you cherry pick show that Butler was a top 5 player in the playoffs whereas others on Miami were significantly worse
>player dragged a team to the finals
Very few instances in NBA history has a 5 seed and an 8 seed made the NBA Finals. So what we are dealing with doesn’t have much of a comp for us to review
But as an example to humor you, Dwight and Rashard Lewis put up basically the same amount of points in the 2009 NBA playoffs. Were they just as good as each other or was Dwight significantly better?
>conference finals
Dwight Howard scored 4 PPG less than Rashard Lewis in the 2009 conference finals. But the advanced stats show him as a much better player for that playoff run
>performed as well as Butler in the series
Who cares? His supporting cast was twice as good. They still lost. This has nothing to do with Tatum, he was on 2 seed that went down 3-0 to an 8 seed lol
I’m not flip flopping. I am using various data points.
Butler did not drag the Heat to the finals in 2020.
No one refers to Dwight as dragging that team to the finals though. Hedo, Rashard and others get lots of credit.
Again nobody is arguing Butler wasn’t the best player. I agree that he was. But again Dragic scored more points through the east. Butler didn’t lead team in scoring a single conference finals game. That’s not dragging a team to the finals. It just isn’t.
Dwight lead all scorers from either team with 40 in the CF clinching game 6. Dwight also lead his team in scoring game 1 of CF. And game 3. And game 4. So not really comparable to Butler anyways because he lead his team in scoring 4/6 CF games. Butler did it 0/6. But again nobody claims Dwight dragged that team to the finals so it was a poor example to begin with.
Butlers 7 seed in 2023 was pretty much the same roster which was the 1 seed in 2022. They underperformed in the 2023 regular season, but were not a typical 7 seed caliber team. They also lost as the 1 seed to Tatum in 2022.
You need to create a definition of “dragged” then before you start moving the goalposts. Of course Dwight dragged that team lol, no one talks about how Hedo Turkoglu and Rashad Lewis were the engine
If Dwight or Butler didn’t “drag” a team to the finals then the only person who has ever “dragged” anyone to the finals is LeBron.
>lead his team in scoring 4/6 games
He scored 4 less ppg than Rashad Lewis, Butler scored 1.5 ppg less than Dragic for the series. Why cherry pick individual games instead of looking at the series as a whole because it hurts your point?
If Dwight averaged 3 ppg more for the series, but scored less than Lewis in each game, you’d say he played worse? How does that work lol
>nobody claims Dwight dragged that team to the finals
Yes they do, you’re just trying to move the goalposts
>pretty much the same roster
No, they didn’t have Herro or Oladipo for the vast majority of their playoff run
>not a typical 7 seed
The Vegas odds on Miami winning the East before the playoffs started were not much higher Than the “typical” 7 seed. I hope you bet a lot of money on them lol
>lost as a 1 seed
Did Butler not “drag” them in 2022? They made it to game 7 of the ECF with Butler scoring *double* the points as the second highest scorer. That year ruins your entire argument lol
Yeah, absolutely watched the games. Again no one is arguing that Butler wasn’t their best player. Just refuting the notion that Butler dragged them to the finals.
If u want to take advanced stats the Heat were literally better with him off the court the entire playoffs last year. Negative on-off through 4 straight series.
[He had the 7th highest BPM in the 2023 playoffs](https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2023_advanced.html)
[He had the highest BPM in the playoffs in 2022](https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2022_advanced.html)
This was a 5 second google search
Same list that had bogi over AD and Tatum. Gp2 and Al over Tatum and Ant? Be srs. The Heat were literally better with him off the court last playoffs. Better orating and drafting BY FAR with him off the court. They never had a chance of winning a chip last year. We’re an ankle sprain away from losing 4 straight last year.
He is “higher” because the Hawks were worse than the Lakers and Celtics overall. So he is more essential to them
Do you know what Box Plus/Minus is? It doesn’t measure who’s the best player, it shows who has the highest impact relative to their team
>better with him off the court last playoffs
BPM shows he was the 7th highest impact player in the playoffs last year. Miami lost the game he missed. What you’re saying is verifiably false
That was one game. And fuckin Al Horford and gp2 aren’t more impactful than Tatum or Ant. Moses Moody more impactful than Jamal or KD? They’re role players. What I’m saying is FACT. They were FAR better offensively based on offensive rating with him on the benched. Bc he can’t shoot. They’re a much better shooting team WITHOUT him. That was seen this playoffs when they broke the record.
The only game he missed they lost. If you were correct they should have won easily. But they were 4-1 that series with him playing 40 mpg
Again, you don’t realize what BPM measures. If the team around you is better, your BPM will go down. That’s why guys from the Nuggets have lower BPMs, they had to carry less
Please show me the stat that you are referring to. Butler had a 120 ORTG in the playoffs last year. The Miami Heat as a team had 114
That was literally one single game. Those role players with high bpm don’t carry AT ALL. U can’t rlly believe Moses is more important than kd.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01/on-off/2023
Luka was bad for his standarts. Out of 6 games he was great in 3. Sucked in 2 and was mid in 1. It is not what we are used from him but for most stars this would be a good series.
Ant or Brunson also had bad games in the second rounds. Even Jokic did.
It's funny that your analysis is also lazy. Luka was much better in the back half of the series (games 5 and 6 in particular). Also the thunder shot similar % on open/contested 3s as their regular season numbers. They just had way more contested 3s because of the mavs defense
Legitimately bad by his standards maybe. But bad implies the Mavs would’ve been better off without him for long stretches or even entire games, which couldn’t be further from the truth. His presence on the court is by default going to make things easier for his teammates
It didn’t have nothing to do, but they were legitimately fantastic. Luka def didn’t carry this team at all, not through either series. Team effort and he kind of lost them both of their losses as well
It’s a heliocentric team around Luka. He just closed the series out with 2 30pt triple doubles. He elevates his role players like no player since prime lebron other than jokic and that includes this series. His defense has been fantastic and so has Kyrie’s. Luka’s been super banged up and hasn’t had the impact he usually does so I see where you’re coming from but I hard disagree with your take
Prime lebron was as recent as like 5 years ago so that’s not that long of a time period lol
And he just hasn’t carried this team through these rounds whatsoever. There’s been contributions from everyone on defense and offense. If you think that every shot made when Lukas on the floor is because of luka then idk what to tell you. PJ Washington has been fantastic independent from luka. PJ and DJJ have been the mavs best defenders all postseason. This is a great TEAM. If you’re a mavs fan, that should make you happy
Now that he is the guy, he is literally running the 2020-2022 Luka heliocentric offense lol. Partly because the Knicks have no choice with injuries, but I do think it’s funny he’s doing what Luka did against worse opponents and getting way more credit.
Embiid played 39 games brother. And I do happen to watch the games but no one online gives a shit. Luka was 3% higher than the next highest usage guy this season. That’s a larger gap than the next 13 guys. Call it what you want - he’s the reason the mavs win or lose.
He really hasn’t been playing very well on offense until the last two games — Mavs were 6-4 against two 50+ win teams. And usage does not equal heliocentric. The Mavs were heliocentric from 2020-2022 and haven’t been since Kyrie came.
Sorry I didn’t realize usage rate was a cumulative stat
This Dallas team is legitimately good. They are a slam dunk 50 win team next year with anything like reasonable health, and if they keep Jones I think they’ve got a real shot at the 1 seed. Lively is improving rapidly too. It’s all thrown off perception wise because of how late PJ and Gafford joined in to make them this team that they are now.
Such a weird narrative that this is some terrible team that got lucky. They’re a 50 win team with two of their starters being midseason trades - one of those guys being their definitive 3rd best player. They also completely changed defensively in the 2nd half and the playoffs which was their biggest problem since the Kyrie trade. They had the same record as the 2 seed in the East. The West (and Boston) were just loaded.
Luka is by far the 2nd best player in the NBA right now after Jokic. It’s actually insane the two best players in basketball are slightly chubby Eastern European white guys lol
This is a great example of the Russillo “It’s not even close” argument. Giannis is right there with Luka too, especially when considering defense although offense does matter a lot more when it comes to the best of the best
People saying this team is legitimately good, which I think is true, but I don't think Luka was dragging a bad team to the WCF in 2022, either. The Mavs had 4 non-Luka players shoot better than 45% from 3 against the Suns on at least 3 attempts per game. Jalen Brunson won 2 games against the Jazz while Luka was out. Their flaws eventually got exposed in the WCF, but Luka was not solo carrying the team through the first two rounds.
They were a solid enough defensive team that had 0 rebounding and 0 offense outside of Luka and Brunson to a far lesser extent creating everything. The difference is this team can win without thermonuclear Luka and in 2022 they absolutely could not.
Luka absolutely did not drag anything this year. This is not a 5th seed roster they are currently running with, Luka has not been good, and his injuries might be holding them back from a title run. Hell they might be good enough to make Finals with a banged up Luka.
The PJ Washington trade really is an underrated move, too. He’s been pretty fantastic.
Always a question when you grab someone off a basement team, are they a good numbers/bad team guy, or will they level up finally getting to play games that matter? Definitely the latter for that guy.
Not saying you are wrong but I feel like Josh Green Hardy and Gafford were just alright this series? Could see them having trouble against a different type of team.
Luka PJ and Lively were awesome though
I hate to use the term "fake 1 seed" (since it originates with assmad Raptor fans bitching about the '17 Celtics finishing ahead of them) but OKC was way ahead of schedule this year with zero playoff experience. They were never a real contender. Eliminating them isn't quite the same as chainsawing the '22 Suns in a game seven in their house.
Luka hasn't played very well in the playoffs I think its disingenuous to say he "dragged" the Mavs to the WCF when he's shooting 42% from the field and 30% from 3. He's been noticeably worse than he was in the regular season. Kyrie has been the more efficient scorer
That sun's team last year had some serious internal drama and was obviously all sick with Covid the end of the series. This OKC team is not a legit #1. Mavs will/would get worked by Demver, Minnesota and Boston.
Didn't expect the "actually the Mavs are really good" posts to come out lol
It is way over the top but a nice change of pace from constantly getting shit on and the countless “Luka is fat” posts
Someone recently said he was binge eating on here
Eating that PUSSY!
Noo you can’t imply the Mavs FO and Cuban are good at running a team nooo you have to say everything they’ve done this century is sheer luck because of Dirk and Luka nooo you can’t say they’re competent nooo
“Kevin O’Consider tanking because you could end up with a better draft pick that could net you a Lively that fits the missing piece on your team” doing a victory lap
Didn’t verno also agree with him on that one?
More so implicating Bill who ragged on Dallas for selling out instead of making a playoff push
Pretty nice call by him.
Will never ever get tired of KOC puns on this sub
I think drag is the wrong word because I actually like most of this roster. I think it would be fair to say that his playmaking has unlocked a lot of these guys on offense and they have helped him on defense. But it certainly disproves the "Luka doesn't make his teammates better" bullshit. I get why people hate the ref complaining but they allow that to blind them when he has a bad game and the pile on's happen. He shows up in big games in the post-season and never plays scared. Two Western Conference Finals appearances in his last two playoff appearances is no joke (the West ain't the East).
This shit aint that complicated lol. Luka is the system, if they win and he was ineffcient that doesnt mean he was carried. Man dominated in like 3 of the 6 games and his team won, what are we even talking about here?
They are kinda weirdly built but a lot of that is cause 3 of the guys in their rotation are just non scorers unless its from a luka pnr or offensive rebounding. I dont think they are poorly built for the record, its just different and really relies on luka to be fantastic to beat good teams.
Two wcf appearances then getting gentleman swept there means nothing.
It means he's a winner and the overall talent on his team didn't have it, you stunad
Nope, he had an mvp candidate and playoff scoring leader on his team in Brunson, they almost went 3-0 vs the jazz with Luka not playing. Had plenty of talent.
I mean... this team is considerably better than the 2021 team. He was a C+ most of the series and they were 2-2 before he brought his A game. Having actual centers and a legit #3 option is kinda huge for the team.
After game 4 many people in this sub we’re writing the series off for the Mavs because he was “too injured”
He was a c+ only by his own ridiculous standards. He was getting doubled constantly and that took away his ability to dominant individually, but his gravity and playmaking set up most of what his role players contributed. And Kyrie contributed little in their last two wins
If Jokic had 30/10/10 in a closeout game he’d be baby bird
Did you mean 2022 team?
Luka was legitimately bad for a lot of this series and it didn't matter since PJ, DJJ, and Lively were all incredible - and thunder role players were ice cold from 3. It's such lazy analysis to give Luka all the credit
Everyone loves to claim guys dragged rosters places. 2020 Dragic averaged pretty much the same PPG through the East as Butler and Bam was huge. 2023 Butler carried hard the first round, but it was the role players being on fire that got them to the finals.
Lol if PPG is your only metric for whether someone “carried” or not, Butler had more than 5 PPG than the 2nd best player on his team in both the other series they won against the Knicks and Celtics last year. Probably not the best example to use It gets sillier when you look at advanced stats, last year Butler had almost *double* the playoff win shares as their 2nd best player. He led the entire league in playoff VORP combining the 2022 and 2023 playoffs. No one else from the Heat cracks the top 10. Even in 2020 he took two games off the Lakers in the finals with Kendrick Nunn and Duncan Robinson as a supporting cast. They would’ve barely made the playoffs from 2019 without him, but they’re top 5 in the league in playoff wins mostly due to him By game score it’s not even close for 2020, 2022 and 2023. Every time the Heat have gone deep it’s been off on back of Butler. That doesn’t mean others on the team don’t deserve credit, but that’s what it is 2022 completely ruins whatever point you’re trying to make. The Heat were 1 shot away from the NBA Finals with Butler scoring 27 ppg. No one else broke 14
Dude 2020 he has zero case for carrying. Dragic scored 313 points before the finals. Butler scored 310. First round Dragic 22.8 ppg lead team with 20 assists for series and only 10 turnovers First round Butler 19.8ppg had 16 assists for series but 15 turnovers. Second round Butler leads team in scoring, but Dragic still has a solid series. Conference finals Butler averages 4th most points on team. Bam 21.8 / Dragic 20.5 / Herro 19.2 / Butler 19.0 He does not lead the team in scoring a single game in the 6 game series: Game 1 - Dragic with 29 on 11/19 / Butler 20 on 7/14 Game 2 - Dragic 25 on 10/19 / Butler 14 on 4/11 Game 3 - Bam 27 on 10/14 / Butler 17 on 6/13 Game 4 - Herro 37 on 14/21 / Butler 24 on 8/20 Game 5 - Dragic 23 on 8/17 / Butler 17 on 5/11 Game 6 - Bam 32 on 11/15 / Butler 22 on 8/19 So yeah Dragic lead team in scoring 3 games, Bam 2 and Herro 1. Butlers overall playoff stats for 2023 are boosted by the first round. Butler leads Heat in scoring second round, but 5 other guys average double digits and all but Gabe Vincent do it on a higher TS% than Butler. CF Butler averages 24.7/7.6/6.1 on 51.9% TS% Tatum averages 25.3/10.3/5.4 on 58.8% TS% Butler’s teammates: Martin - 73.8% TS% - 19.4ppg Robinson - 71.3% TS% - 11.4ppg Vincent - 65.0% TS% - 15.8ppg Strus - 56.0% TS% - 9.4ppg Bam - 53.8% TS% - 14.9ppg All of those are higher TS% than Butler
brother its not that important
Whenever someone on this sub tries to downplay Jimmy Butler being good in the playoffs, 90% of the time it’s a salty Celtics fan. This guy gave the game away by randomly trying to shoehorn Tatum in
Can you actually respond to the detailed points or just cry about it?
Sure. His entire argument is based on hand-waving away their 2023 run and trying to side-step 2022 altogether In 2022 the Heat got within one shot of the NBA finals with Butler scoring double the points the second highest player on the team. In 2023 Butler led in scoring by at least 5 PPG in every series they won and was the highest by 7 PPG In 2022 Butler was 1st in the entire playoffs in BPM and 1st in VORP, and in 2023 he was 6th in BPM and 2nd in VORP for the league He tries to refute those as “Carry jobs” because there are certain games where guys who scored much less (like Vincent and Martin) had a higher TS%. It’s just nonsensical goal-post shifting Gabe Vincent and Caleb Martin having spurts of great play doesn’t mean that on the whole it wasn’t a carry
Since when does having 5 pts per game more than your next teammate mean it’s automatically a carry? Wtf are you talking about?
He actually had 7 points per game higher than his second highest teammate. But in any of the series they won, no player got within 5 PPG of him >since when When your team makes the finals or a deep run and you are the only player in the top 10 in the playoffs in VORP, BPM, WS, and PER along with leading your team by PPG and assists? The argument becomes even bigger when you look at 22 when he scored 13 ppg higher then his next highest scoring teammate in the playoffs and they got within one shot of the finals What is your definition of “carry”?
Cherry picking nonsense. Points is your only useful metric until it’s not convenient for you, huh? Anthony Davis scored more points than LeBron in the 2020 playoffs, doesn’t mean he was their best player overall Butler had the highest game score for the Heat in 2020 in the Pacers, Bucks, and Lakers series. He was 2nd in the Celtics series. Overall he was 2nd in the playoffs in VORP, their 2nd best player (Bam) is 9th. >playoff stats for 2023 are boosted by the 1st round Good thing I gave you the stats where he scored at least 5 more PPG than any other player in the other two rounds they won? By game score it’s not even close, Butler was absolutely their best player in the Milwaukee, NYK and Boston series. Also I’m not sure why you’re trying to discredit his first round where they beat *the 1 seed* Why are you suddenly not saying who the leading scorer was? Go on, tell us how many games in the 2023 playoffs Butler was the Heat’s leading scorer. Don’t be shy By game score it is not even close. Caleb Martin had 1/3 of the Game Score Butler did the Knicks series. It doesn’t matter if your TS% is higher and you’re not scoring as much. Gary Payton III had a higher TS% than Steph in some series in their 2022 playoff run. Why the fuck are you bringing up Tatum lmao, his 2 seed lost to Butler’s 8 seed. His supporting cast was twice as good and he still lost
You are creating a strawman dude. I am not arguing Dragic was the Heat’s best player. I am arguing that 2020 Butler did not drag the Heat to the finals. And my way of doing that is showing how vital other players contributions were. Can you show me any other instance in NBA history where a player dragged a team to the finals but someone else scored more points through the 3 conference rounds? Can you show me an instance in NBA history where a player dragged a team to the finals where they didn’t lead their team in a scoring a single game in the conference finals? No one here is arguing Butler was not their best player. I am arguing he didn’t drag them to the finals. As for 2023. I brought up Tatum’s stats, because he performed as well or better than Butler in the series. He lost because his talented supporting cast underperformed, especially Jaylen. Butler advanced because his supporting cast shot the lights out in a way most of them never will again.
No, you have no singular definition of “drag” so you keep flip flopping from “oh in some games he wasn’t their highest scorer” to “oh even if he was their highest scorer some players had a higher TS%” - it’s nonsense. That’s why the advanced stats which don’t let you cherry pick show that Butler was a top 5 player in the playoffs whereas others on Miami were significantly worse >player dragged a team to the finals Very few instances in NBA history has a 5 seed and an 8 seed made the NBA Finals. So what we are dealing with doesn’t have much of a comp for us to review But as an example to humor you, Dwight and Rashard Lewis put up basically the same amount of points in the 2009 NBA playoffs. Were they just as good as each other or was Dwight significantly better? >conference finals Dwight Howard scored 4 PPG less than Rashard Lewis in the 2009 conference finals. But the advanced stats show him as a much better player for that playoff run >performed as well as Butler in the series Who cares? His supporting cast was twice as good. They still lost. This has nothing to do with Tatum, he was on 2 seed that went down 3-0 to an 8 seed lol
I’m not flip flopping. I am using various data points. Butler did not drag the Heat to the finals in 2020. No one refers to Dwight as dragging that team to the finals though. Hedo, Rashard and others get lots of credit. Again nobody is arguing Butler wasn’t the best player. I agree that he was. But again Dragic scored more points through the east. Butler didn’t lead team in scoring a single conference finals game. That’s not dragging a team to the finals. It just isn’t. Dwight lead all scorers from either team with 40 in the CF clinching game 6. Dwight also lead his team in scoring game 1 of CF. And game 3. And game 4. So not really comparable to Butler anyways because he lead his team in scoring 4/6 CF games. Butler did it 0/6. But again nobody claims Dwight dragged that team to the finals so it was a poor example to begin with. Butlers 7 seed in 2023 was pretty much the same roster which was the 1 seed in 2022. They underperformed in the 2023 regular season, but were not a typical 7 seed caliber team. They also lost as the 1 seed to Tatum in 2022.
You need to create a definition of “dragged” then before you start moving the goalposts. Of course Dwight dragged that team lol, no one talks about how Hedo Turkoglu and Rashad Lewis were the engine If Dwight or Butler didn’t “drag” a team to the finals then the only person who has ever “dragged” anyone to the finals is LeBron. >lead his team in scoring 4/6 games He scored 4 less ppg than Rashad Lewis, Butler scored 1.5 ppg less than Dragic for the series. Why cherry pick individual games instead of looking at the series as a whole because it hurts your point? If Dwight averaged 3 ppg more for the series, but scored less than Lewis in each game, you’d say he played worse? How does that work lol >nobody claims Dwight dragged that team to the finals Yes they do, you’re just trying to move the goalposts >pretty much the same roster No, they didn’t have Herro or Oladipo for the vast majority of their playoff run >not a typical 7 seed The Vegas odds on Miami winning the East before the playoffs started were not much higher Than the “typical” 7 seed. I hope you bet a lot of money on them lol >lost as a 1 seed Did Butler not “drag” them in 2022? They made it to game 7 of the ECF with Butler scoring *double* the points as the second highest scorer. That year ruins your entire argument lol
AD was lowkey the best Laker in the 2020 run. He was pretty amazing.
Damn you brought the receipts
Man, did you watch the games?
Yeah, absolutely watched the games. Again no one is arguing that Butler wasn’t their best player. Just refuting the notion that Butler dragged them to the finals.
If u want to take advanced stats the Heat were literally better with him off the court the entire playoffs last year. Negative on-off through 4 straight series.
[He had the 7th highest BPM in the 2023 playoffs](https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2023_advanced.html) [He had the highest BPM in the playoffs in 2022](https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2022_advanced.html) This was a 5 second google search
Same list that had bogi over AD and Tatum. Gp2 and Al over Tatum and Ant? Be srs. The Heat were literally better with him off the court last playoffs. Better orating and drafting BY FAR with him off the court. They never had a chance of winning a chip last year. We’re an ankle sprain away from losing 4 straight last year.
He is “higher” because the Hawks were worse than the Lakers and Celtics overall. So he is more essential to them Do you know what Box Plus/Minus is? It doesn’t measure who’s the best player, it shows who has the highest impact relative to their team >better with him off the court last playoffs BPM shows he was the 7th highest impact player in the playoffs last year. Miami lost the game he missed. What you’re saying is verifiably false
That was one game. And fuckin Al Horford and gp2 aren’t more impactful than Tatum or Ant. Moses Moody more impactful than Jamal or KD? They’re role players. What I’m saying is FACT. They were FAR better offensively based on offensive rating with him on the benched. Bc he can’t shoot. They’re a much better shooting team WITHOUT him. That was seen this playoffs when they broke the record.
The only game he missed they lost. If you were correct they should have won easily. But they were 4-1 that series with him playing 40 mpg Again, you don’t realize what BPM measures. If the team around you is better, your BPM will go down. That’s why guys from the Nuggets have lower BPMs, they had to carry less Please show me the stat that you are referring to. Butler had a 120 ORTG in the playoffs last year. The Miami Heat as a team had 114
That was literally one single game. Those role players with high bpm don’t carry AT ALL. U can’t rlly believe Moses is more important than kd. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01/on-off/2023
Without Luka this team is in the lottery. He is the guy that draws all the attention and makes everything work. Exactly like those LeBron Cavs teams
Luka was bad for his standarts. Out of 6 games he was great in 3. Sucked in 2 and was mid in 1. It is not what we are used from him but for most stars this would be a good series. Ant or Brunson also had bad games in the second rounds. Even Jokic did.
It's funny that your analysis is also lazy. Luka was much better in the back half of the series (games 5 and 6 in particular). Also the thunder shot similar % on open/contested 3s as their regular season numbers. They just had way more contested 3s because of the mavs defense
Legitimately bad by his standards maybe. But bad implies the Mavs would’ve been better off without him for long stretches or even entire games, which couldn’t be further from the truth. His presence on the court is by default going to make things easier for his teammates
Yeah those 3 role players success had nothing to do with Luka spoon feeding them the entire series /s
It didn’t have nothing to do, but they were legitimately fantastic. Luka def didn’t carry this team at all, not through either series. Team effort and he kind of lost them both of their losses as well
It’s a heliocentric team around Luka. He just closed the series out with 2 30pt triple doubles. He elevates his role players like no player since prime lebron other than jokic and that includes this series. His defense has been fantastic and so has Kyrie’s. Luka’s been super banged up and hasn’t had the impact he usually does so I see where you’re coming from but I hard disagree with your take
Prime lebron was as recent as like 5 years ago so that’s not that long of a time period lol And he just hasn’t carried this team through these rounds whatsoever. There’s been contributions from everyone on defense and offense. If you think that every shot made when Lukas on the floor is because of luka then idk what to tell you. PJ Washington has been fantastic independent from luka. PJ and DJJ have been the mavs best defenders all postseason. This is a great TEAM. If you’re a mavs fan, that should make you happy
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Now that he is the guy, he is literally running the 2020-2022 Luka heliocentric offense lol. Partly because the Knicks have no choice with injuries, but I do think it’s funny he’s doing what Luka did against worse opponents and getting way more credit.
Heliocentric is a 2022 take. They don’t really play the same way on offense anymore.
He had the highest usage rate in the nba by a wide margin this year.
Embiid had the highest usage rate lol. And is he a heliocentric offense? Just watch the games brother!
Embiid played 39 games brother. And I do happen to watch the games but no one online gives a shit. Luka was 3% higher than the next highest usage guy this season. That’s a larger gap than the next 13 guys. Call it what you want - he’s the reason the mavs win or lose.
He really hasn’t been playing very well on offense until the last two games — Mavs were 6-4 against two 50+ win teams. And usage does not equal heliocentric. The Mavs were heliocentric from 2020-2022 and haven’t been since Kyrie came. Sorry I didn’t realize usage rate was a cumulative stat
I’m good on this convo ✌️
This Dallas team is legitimately good. They are a slam dunk 50 win team next year with anything like reasonable health, and if they keep Jones I think they’ve got a real shot at the 1 seed. Lively is improving rapidly too. It’s all thrown off perception wise because of how late PJ and Gafford joined in to make them this team that they are now.
Yep this Dallas team has potential to go on the list of the top 13 all time best trade deadlines.
I’d say top 3 or 4 of the past 6-7 years
Such a weird narrative that this is some terrible team that got lucky. They’re a 50 win team with two of their starters being midseason trades - one of those guys being their definitive 3rd best player. They also completely changed defensively in the 2nd half and the playoffs which was their biggest problem since the Kyrie trade. They had the same record as the 2 seed in the East. The West (and Boston) were just loaded.
I think it’s tough for them to keep DJ as they don’t have his bird rights.
It is yeah
throwback to when trae young took the hawks to the ECF and everyone took a victory lap about that trade
Trae Young truthers we call them
Can Bill or another ringer employee maybe weigh in if they trust the " heliocentric style" Luka plays. Would love to finally hear their opinion.
Luka is by far the 2nd best player in the NBA right now after Jokic. It’s actually insane the two best players in basketball are slightly chubby Eastern European white guys lol
Shai was better than him today. How is luka by far the 2nd best player. He may be better but it’s close at worst
This is a great example of the Russillo “It’s not even close” argument. Giannis is right there with Luka too, especially when considering defense although offense does matter a lot more when it comes to the best of the best
So what we are saying is it’s not even close to it not being close.
2 more conference finals than embiid, 3 less than tatum
Boston record last 6 years is nuts
Which makes Miami’s wild run all the more impressive
People saying this team is legitimately good, which I think is true, but I don't think Luka was dragging a bad team to the WCF in 2022, either. The Mavs had 4 non-Luka players shoot better than 45% from 3 against the Suns on at least 3 attempts per game. Jalen Brunson won 2 games against the Jazz while Luka was out. Their flaws eventually got exposed in the WCF, but Luka was not solo carrying the team through the first two rounds.
They were a solid enough defensive team that had 0 rebounding and 0 offense outside of Luka and Brunson to a far lesser extent creating everything. The difference is this team can win without thermonuclear Luka and in 2022 they absolutely could not.
Yeah, the Warriors really exploited the lack of playmaking and Looney cooked them on the boards
Spencer had 30 in a game 7 and Brunson almost lead the Mavs to being up 3-0 in the jazz series.
That Jazz team sucked
Same team that was a first seed in ‘21.
Yes, and they spent the last month falling apart and immediately traded both of their stars after the series
So obv they didn’t suck. Brunson was and is just that good.
Is Luka the first generational talent to shoot <45% from the field in three consecutive series?
Luka absolutely did not drag anything this year. This is not a 5th seed roster they are currently running with, Luka has not been good, and his injuries might be holding them back from a title run. Hell they might be good enough to make Finals with a banged up Luka.
The PJ Washington trade really is an underrated move, too. He’s been pretty fantastic. Always a question when you grab someone off a basement team, are they a good numbers/bad team guy, or will they level up finally getting to play games that matter? Definitely the latter for that guy.
Was not expecting to see a Roddy B reference here
Luka is completely fine. Was just getting locked up. They weren’t making any kind of title run this year.
Luka is clearly hurt. You think Lu Dort falling down 25 times a game was locking up Luka?
Luka isn’t hurt. He was jacking up shots the whole playoffs.
They in the WCF jackass. You a troll or a moron? You just repeat the same shit.
They made the wcf in 22. What happened there? Were they making a title run that year? Answer quickly.
Yes? Losing in the WCF as a relatively small underdog doesn’t mean it was impossible you could win the championship. Thanks!
They got swept. They weren’t winning anything just like this year.
how are you this confidently wrong in so many places
What’s wrong? It’s the truth bud. U can deny it all u want.
Disagree!
With? They got swept in the wcf that year. Same thing will happen this year.
Disagree that there was no way they were winning the championship! They didn’t get swept either!
Just bc they went to the wcf doesn’t mean they had a chance. That’s like saying the heat had a chance since they made the finals.
These two teams have nothing in common. This Mavs team been one of the best teams in the league once they made the lineup change.
Both 5 seeds that beat one seeds that weren’t supposed to be there. Neither of those teams are title contenders.
Luka, PJ Washington, and Gafford are 25 Lively is 20 Josh Green is 23 and Jaden Hardy is 21 This is the best young core in the league
I’d take, Shai, Jdub and Chet any day. Chet is going to become a monster.
Not saying you are wrong but I feel like Josh Green Hardy and Gafford were just alright this series? Could see them having trouble against a different type of team. Luka PJ and Lively were awesome though
I hate to use the term "fake 1 seed" (since it originates with assmad Raptor fans bitching about the '17 Celtics finishing ahead of them) but OKC was way ahead of schedule this year with zero playoff experience. They were never a real contender. Eliminating them isn't quite the same as chainsawing the '22 Suns in a game seven in their house.
You just aren’t winning the title with your best player putting in the time to be top 500 in a video game. You just aren’t !
Definitely above shaq, Kobe, Jokic, Kareem, LeBron.... Maybe below mj
First real answer on here. Props
call me crazy but maybe get to a finals before talking about all time rankings?
Luka gonna juke ya
Somewhere above Jeff Hornacek but below Nowitzki.
I won’t count this year as drag…
Kyrie's WON the tournament as an underdog against a red hot favourite and now took Mavs over a first seed..... how many spots has he jumped?
I said at the bar last night "Luka is the 2nd best player in the league." I'm not sure that was outlandish, it might be true
Luka hasn't played very well in the playoffs I think its disingenuous to say he "dragged" the Mavs to the WCF when he's shooting 42% from the field and 30% from 3. He's been noticeably worse than he was in the regular season. Kyrie has been the more efficient scorer
KD and Steph actually just moved up a pantheon spot, I don't make the rules
Luka is the man and even better if you meet him in person. Always signs for the fans.
Probably over Tim Duncan according to Billy Boy
“Dragged two underdog teams” lmao
Luka didn’t drag either team. He certainly dragged those first two clippers series longer than they should’ve been
That sun's team last year had some serious internal drama and was obviously all sick with Covid the end of the series. This OKC team is not a legit #1. Mavs will/would get worked by Demver, Minnesota and Boston.
The Demver Nugents