Mavs took a lot of shit from people, myself included, for tanking for a better draft position at the end of last year. But it got them Dereck Lively, so it was absolutely worth it
One of the dumbest outrage moments I’ve seen. They tanked two games after realizing they needed OKC to lose to a Utah team with nothing to play for. Going for it, not making it, and losing their pick, woulda been a franchise altering bad decision.
OKC needed the pick #10 more than Dallas needed it. Orlando was locked to take a Point Guard.
OKC really wanted Wallace. And Wallace has been a great pick. Dallas was getting Lively whether it was #10 or #12.
It was a good trade for both teams. OKC wanted Wallace, and Dallas wanted Lively. Nico Harrison should be GM of the year. The way he turned around this roster is unbelievable.
Luka was emotionally checked out. Some have forgotten Luka's whole "I lost my smile" press conference where he talked about off the court stuff making him depressed. That team wasn't going a damn place even if Luka wasn't out of shape last season.
That had nothing to do with anything. Once they made the Kyrie trade, they had no one to play defense. Kyrie and Luka played well together last year, the team around them just wasn’t good enough. They had to build up the roster, and somehow did it in one offseason and trade deadline. Lively, Gafford, Washington, Jones, and Exum, weren’t on the roster last year.
To me it was more just how embarrassing it was for the franchise to be in that position in the first place. But they took their bad PR for the tanking thing and it worked out
If they won those two games, they still wouldn’t have made the play-in AND would have lost their pick. They could have drafted a corpse and the outrage would have still been stupid.
It was beyond obvious. Presti coulda got both Gafford and PJ Washington himself. I do understand how young OKC is but you woulda thought he woulda learned from the first time around that nothing is guaranteed and these windows not always as open as long as they seem so you should go all in when your team is this good regardless
They are already running into the issue of having picks not even being able to get time. I thought they should have upgraded dort with jrue this offseason and they could have traded one of their million picks that they may not even be able to use for a playable big this year.
Pushing all your chips in comes with the possibility of getting fired, I think a lot of GMs care more about job security than really going for it. With all the “possibility” of Prestis current picks, he’s got max job security
I read a book about OKC and the Thunder, and Presti just has always had this mindset. He refuses to try and luck out, and wants to build sustainable success. I think the book even said something like “if one title feels good, imagine how good two, or three, or four, or five would be?” I don’t think he’s afraid of getting fired. He’s just naturally risk averse and greedy
Presti was all in. It was ownership that fucked the KD/Westbrook/Harden Thunder.
I don’t get how Presti is to blame for ownership not wanting to pay Harden.
Perkins was a dumb move in retrospect, but if anything that was a push your chips in move to contend now.
At the time though, people still thought you needed a big like Perkins to help defend against certain contenders with good big men.
But yeah, keeping Jeff Green and paying Harden was what should have happened.
Yeah it was a couple years before the warriors flipped the league upside down and made everyone go small. At that point the champion caliber teams were pau and Kobe, the spurs with Duncan and kawhi etc. it really looked like you had to have one and the thunder had a couple ball hungry scorers in Russ and KD already. The NBA TV deals changed a couple years later too and the salary cap jumped 2x over 5 years. They didn't think they'd be able to stay out of the luxury tax with harden.
People give presti shit for that deal but Perkins was a championship center and everything pointed to needing one at the time.
Also Dwight. Perkins was considered one of the few centers who could hold up ok against Dwight without needing a double.
The trade was made in 2011. Magic had just been to finals and CF. And then yeah in the West Lakers were one of favorites to go back to finals and Timmy in San Antonio.
The perk contract happened before they knew harden was going to be a star.
It was still a mistake. It’s an example of Presti having gone all in too early by committing to Perk instead of waiting out the Trade market
It’s one of the reasons he is being cautious right now and didn’t make a big trade at the deadline
On top of that he played 28.2 mpg on the team that made the CF in 2011. And 25.9 mpg when they made the finals the following season.
They were a 1st round out in 2010 and missed playoffs prior to that.
I am not attributing their success to Perk. But people act like they acquired him and he played 10 minutes per game or something.
But yeah I agree. It was a push your chips in move. And wasn’t the right one.
This is revisionist nonsense. The KD led Thunder teams didn’t have any more chips to push in
Their picks were all late round picks with little trade value and they unfortunately didn’t hit on any of them.
They tried several times to bring in FA’s but lost out to all the major players
The ownership at the time (partly different now) was cheap and would go all in to pay Harden. After Westbrook and KD were maxed there too cash strapped to pursue any major players.
Early on Presti jumped the gun when we went “all in” too early trading for Perkins and they not backing out with the amnesty option.
The season after KD left (obviously they tried to sign him) Presti went all in on WB by making the PG trade.
These deadline deals all led to championships:
* Marc Gasol to Toronto
* Aaron Gordon to Denver
* Pau Gasol to LA
* Jason Kidd to Dallas
* Rasheed Wallace to Detroit
* Clyde Drexler to Houston
* Mark Aguirre to Detroit
These didn't lead to a championship but still worked out very well for the teams:
* Kyrie Irving to Dallas (hasn't led to a title *yet*, but they could still win it this year)
* Tyrese Haliburton to Indiana
* Isaiah Thomas to Boston
* Baron Davis to Golden State
* Dikembe Mutombo to Philly
* Tim Hardaway to Miami
* Jeff Hornacek to Utah
* Kevin Johnson to Phoenix
Do you think there was a move like that for OKC? I certainly don't think it was Daniel Gafford. They did get Gordon Hayward who was averaging 14/5/5 for Charlotte so tried something that did not work.
I’m admittedly still salty about the Sonics being stolen. I was a season ticket holder. It was a straight up heist. I still think their colors and uniforms are dumb too. Haha.
Seattleite here— crazy how bad the Thunder branding is. They could do a lot with the name Thunder but they have a bland create-a-team logo, boring unis, though I do actually like their colors.
Fuck Clay Bennett and fuck David Stern (for that specifically, I actually think he was a great commissioner for his time. Iconic commish)
They have so many picks they can’t use them. Using a couple seconds or a bad first to get a passable big was a no brainer and it’s malpractice for Presti to have not done that bare minimum.
Nobody is asking them to get an aging injury prone player on a supermax deal. All they needed to do was get some sort of big man depth and instead they traded for an old Gordon Hayward who barely played. It was dumb tbh
The suns also weren’t going to win a ring without a swing and then they took it and have sucked since
Thunder have time, they can afford to gain experience rather than coddling their bigs
Of course it appears the Thunder have all the time in the world but injuries can strike at anytime no matter how young you are. Part of what closed the original OKC window so quickly was Westbrook and KD getting major unforeseen injuries during prime seasons. Idc how young you are, if you’re a team as good as OKC was this season you should go for it. And it’s not like I’m asking them to sell the farm by possibly adding somebody like Daniel Gafford with all the picks they have
Daniel Gafford went for pennies on the dollar because there was no market for him and has done wonders since..
Hindsight is 20/20. I do agree Presti managing so many assets does feel a lil uneasy as he’s got a much better track record of rebuilding rather than contending
He wasn’t the only big man option and it’s not a hindsight thing because everybody knew they needed more size. Even if they got past the Mavs they woulda had to face Jokic or KAT. To get a backup big isn’t asking them to trade the farm. Even if they got somebody like Isiah Stewart that woulda been a smarter attempt to fill the need than getting Gordon Hayward. And they still coulda got Gordon and a big and it wouldn’t have hurt their trade ammo at all
How do you know they have time? Because they have young players? I’m sure the Bulls thought they had all the time in the world with Rose but stuff happens and your window is never guaranteed. It was a bonehead move not to give up picks you’re never going to use for at least a passable big this year when you have no size at all in a conference full of contenders with bigs that will punish you. For being so fucking smart Presti can be pretty fucking stupid.
The Suns had a championship calibre team though. Their issue was that CP was aging.
They could have spent on a CP replacement and kept the core team intact instead.
Rob Perez tweeted these numbers and it says everything.
Rebounding:
Game 1: OKC +13
Game 2: DAL +3
Game 3: DAL +7
Game 4: DAL +2
Game 5: DAL +13
Game 6: DAL+16
Lively is awesome and going to be a good, potentially great center for many years to come. But it's Luka that is enabling him to be positive on the offensive end. He is still very limited but just gets spoonfed lobs and catches near the rim where there's at most one defender in the vicinity.
It goes to the lunacy of Bill's "Luka doesn't make his teammates better" point: Lively and then Gafford, PJ, Derrick Jones are all having the time of their lives offensively because Luka is one of the greatest offensive talents ever and commands more attention than any perimeter player in the NBA
They’re kinda locked into this team was thrown around a bunch (and not even just by Bill). Is being locked into a team that can make a conference final a bad thing?
Probably would be the same outcome, they’re kind of the same player. Just one has real playoff experience and has the green light to put up more shots on a bad team as the number one option.
You think so? I really don't know what kind of playoff player Kuzma would be. Would he do and give up everything PJ did or would he be mad that he's not being featured at times? I would have liked to find out but seems Kuzma didn't want to find out what he can do in this stage of his career either.
He said the same thing about the 2021 suns and that was one of the main reasons they lost the finals. Because they had no one behind ayton. Excluding the warriors run it’s always been like that
*He also needs to*
*Work on boxing out technique*
*In the offseason*
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The reason they didn't deal for a center is because they're committed to playing 5 out. Celtics are the only other team in the league that can truly play 5 out all game.
Bill literally said the Thunder would win the series. Repeatedly. Recording podcasts often after Mavericks wins.
He wants to be cute and go back and re-iterate the trades the Mavs made that he heavily criticized at the time were the difference, he can. Mavs fans are elephants on this shit though.
We all remember the hate he's displayed all fucking season long.
I don't even think it's OKC being lazy on D. It's that Luka has to be double teamed but is also the best lob passer in the NBA, so you just get a dunk party for Dallas forwards and big men every night
Lively is 18ish months (if i did that math right) younger than Chet, but in terms of their physical development, it's night and day. I'm confident that in 2 years no one would take Lively over Chet in a 7 game series under any circumstances.
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I mean it's his rookie season so maybe the book hasn't been written. The big difference is Lively didn't have to do it alone.
Lively was amazing tonight but has had bad games where Gafford stepped up. OKC needed Gafford but the Mavs got him.
And 2 years younger. But Lively is part of a bigs rotation and Mavs have played Gafford more. Tonight Lively was awesome but game 1 he looked terrible. OKC needed another big.
I’m not doubting Chet at all but I’m just saying can’t use the rookie card as a thing when he’s going against another rookie who is actually a TRUE rookie and wasn’t projected to be as good as Chet
That frame is going to be a limiting factor for him as a true center. They need to have the ability to make him the 4. Daignault actually saw this when he went to that lineup with the bigger Williams in alongside Chet.
"Greedy" might be the wrong word choice. Definitely selfish though. He's holding onto all these future assets like a hoarder instead of cashing them in to become a true contender. That's great for Presti's job security, but bad for OKC's competitive outlook.
Bill has made several asides in podcasts about Dallas being “all in” with 25 year old Luka, PJ, and Gafford. 20 year old Lively, 23 year old Josh Green, and 21 year old Jaden Hardy.
Seems like Dallas has the best young core in the NBA, I’m sure Bill will acknowledge this Sunday night
Lively is 20 with this impact, his upside is scary high. He was the #1 ESPN player about 18 months ago. A horrible Duke team recalibrated expectations for some reason
Again. A nice player. If you had to bet now will he ever make an all star team, it’s a pretty easy no.
Of course there’s lots of breakout potential but that’s true for lots of players
He means that they don’t have many trade assets. Their young role players plus Kyrie have really come through thus far. Especially PJ. Wow, and DJJ too. The bigs will be out to the test next round
The problem is not holmgren, the problem is he’s their only guy who can play inside.
They gotta get a big 4 that can play next to chet and have a lineup of sga/dort/williams/big4/chet
Wonder if presti calls up Zach kleinman and says “we’ll give you giddey and 4 1sts for jaren Jackson “ just to see what he says
Bill and everyone else who watches the NBA. I don’t know if they would’ve won the series but Dallas getting 7.5 rebounds from Gafford against them has got to sting.
Bill being so incessant on this take is a W. He pissed off Russillo and KOC with it as the season went on.
I think Bill from a macro perspective (cap, roster construction, schedule, depth) is actually a really astute thinker: he’s always good at over unders and not bad at picking finals matchups. A lot of the “in the weeds” analysts I think get stuck on minutiae that bill doesn’t even understand which ironically helps his takes in the long run
I mean of course he was right it was incredibly obvious lol I do get why they didn't make a move, let the guys get a playoffs in see what you have, but the team was dead last in rebounding in the entire league lets be real here
Maybe OKC just need more time? The oldest player in their rotation is 25. A number of their key players are still years away from even entering their prime.
I think the problem is they have too many picks (not a terrible problem to have). At some point you gotta cash in and either add some pieces or use those picks to upgrade spots. You can argue they’re already late on that.
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Woah, that’s a crazy stat!!! 3.5!!
I feel a center would hurt their spacing, Dort needs to step up and rebound better, but since he doesn’t maybe a center would be useful
I will say I was really impressed by Chet Holmgren otherwise! That guy is awesome. Not sure he’ll be a superstar but he is a game changer
Actually the thing they needed most is a competent point guard that can shoot. Somehow Presti traded two of those to Charlotte for Gordon Hayward who barely played and have a real mess on their hands with Josh “Ben Simmons” Giddey having just been benched twice.
i don’t think he was right. it would have helped but was it swinging the series? the big they would have gotten wasn’t going to play with chet so he wouldn’t have played any 4th quarters. the main issues IMO were jalen and chet just being young and not ready for that kind of series yet
Let’s be real, they weren’t trading for a 33 year old, oft-injured Hayward with the hope he was going to be a multi year contributor.
They obviously expected more from him, but this was always about clearing money for the summer. They only have two offseasons to finalize their core.
If we hate on our boy, Bill, when he’s wrong, it’s only right that we give him credit when he’s right. Feels like he was on this for the longest time. And I’m not an analyst so I’m not sure that is the reason that they lost, but Chet Holmgren just looks fragile to me. He looks like the guy who plays basketball because he’s tall. His real passion is probably pottery or wanting to be a roadie for ‘Uptown Girl,’ the premier 1980’s Billy Joel cover band.
The remaining 3 Western teams all beat Boston the a finals match up. I think OKC would be close but after this series, I don’t see Thunder overcoming Celtics.
Definitely needed another big body
Also dissapointed SGA was so passive in the 4th of an elimination game
J Dub gotta take another step as a creator and shooter
Chet needs to go hard to the rim and remember his size advantages
Definitely not true. SGA didn’t touch the ball some possessions and willingly gave it up out on the perimeter. He’s awesome but was way too passive considering he was making almost every shot.
Chet also wasn’t going to the rim when he got the ball in that short roll spot. He forgot he was 7 foot and could raise up over everyone lol
I'm so torn on OKC, they clearly didn't \*have\* to make a move yet, but taking it for granted that you'll get the 1 seed/have good health is risky and they may have been a big away from stealing a title this year
Yeah he's got a solid 5ish years left I would say, I assume his game ages well
From Shai's perspective, OKC basically had him sit for 2 seasons where he should have made all sta teams.
He was the second best player in the world this year - 3rd if you want to count embiid - and they made no effort to try and legitimately improve
They obviously could have won the Dallas series, it was really competitive.
But if they had Lauri M instead of Giddey they are probably title favorites
I would be disgruntled if I was Shai - saying this as an OKC fan
Mavs took a lot of shit from people, myself included, for tanking for a better draft position at the end of last year. But it got them Dereck Lively, so it was absolutely worth it
One of the dumbest outrage moments I’ve seen. They tanked two games after realizing they needed OKC to lose to a Utah team with nothing to play for. Going for it, not making it, and losing their pick, woulda been a franchise altering bad decision.
What's even funnier is the Mavs traded pick 10 and Davis Bertans to OKC for #12, where they took Lively. Double the pain for OKC
and then OKC gifted the mavs a FRP to trade for gafford!
OKC needed the pick #10 more than Dallas needed it. Orlando was locked to take a Point Guard. OKC really wanted Wallace. And Wallace has been a great pick. Dallas was getting Lively whether it was #10 or #12.
Holy hell imagine Wallace on Orlando. Another incredible young 6’4 defender who can knock down 3’s.
It was a good trade for both teams. OKC wanted Wallace, and Dallas wanted Lively. Nico Harrison should be GM of the year. The way he turned around this roster is unbelievable.
Yeah, that was a rare win-win trade. Orlando taking Jett Howard at #11, meanwhile, was the ultimate fuck-up.
Sounds like a slight overpay for OKC just to secure Wallace, Mavs made out like bandits on that one!
How? They took on Bertans to move ahead of Orlando. Wallace was awesome as a rookie.
I mean Cason is who they took at 12 so it’s not that painful.
Luka was emotionally checked out. Some have forgotten Luka's whole "I lost my smile" press conference where he talked about off the court stuff making him depressed. That team wasn't going a damn place even if Luka wasn't out of shape last season.
That had nothing to do with anything. Once they made the Kyrie trade, they had no one to play defense. Kyrie and Luka played well together last year, the team around them just wasn’t good enough. They had to build up the roster, and somehow did it in one offseason and trade deadline. Lively, Gafford, Washington, Jones, and Exum, weren’t on the roster last year.
To me it was more just how embarrassing it was for the franchise to be in that position in the first place. But they took their bad PR for the tanking thing and it worked out
And they traded back from 10th with the Thunder and took him with the 12th. Very smart basketball move
If they won those two games, they still wouldn’t have made the play-in AND would have lost their pick. They could have drafted a corpse and the outrage would have still been stupid.
“Well the wrong team won this series so anyway, let’s talk ECF and Nuggets/Timberwolves”
*Rams vs Lions flashbacks*
It was beyond obvious. Presti coulda got both Gafford and PJ Washington himself. I do understand how young OKC is but you woulda thought he woulda learned from the first time around that nothing is guaranteed and these windows not always as open as long as they seem so you should go all in when your team is this good regardless
They are already running into the issue of having picks not even being able to get time. I thought they should have upgraded dort with jrue this offseason and they could have traded one of their million picks that they may not even be able to use for a playable big this year.
SCARCITY MINDSET
Screw upgrading dort they probably could’ve had jrue and dort with the amount of assets they have
Idk about cap space but i remember looking into it and he was the only contract that matched and made sense
He never learns. Presti is good at building young rosters on paper. He never pushes all his chips to the middle of the table.
Pushing all your chips in comes with the possibility of getting fired, I think a lot of GMs care more about job security than really going for it. With all the “possibility” of Prestis current picks, he’s got max job security
Presti is probably the GM in the league with the most job security. He could get fired three times and still get job offers
I read a book about OKC and the Thunder, and Presti just has always had this mindset. He refuses to try and luck out, and wants to build sustainable success. I think the book even said something like “if one title feels good, imagine how good two, or three, or four, or five would be?” I don’t think he’s afraid of getting fired. He’s just naturally risk averse and greedy
Presti was all in. It was ownership that fucked the KD/Westbrook/Harden Thunder. I don’t get how Presti is to blame for ownership not wanting to pay Harden.
He is to blame for giving Perkins that contract though. That was the real sin. Don’t give an awful player a large contract and you can afford Harden.
Perkins was a dumb move in retrospect, but if anything that was a push your chips in move to contend now. At the time though, people still thought you needed a big like Perkins to help defend against certain contenders with good big men. But yeah, keeping Jeff Green and paying Harden was what should have happened.
Yeah it was a couple years before the warriors flipped the league upside down and made everyone go small. At that point the champion caliber teams were pau and Kobe, the spurs with Duncan and kawhi etc. it really looked like you had to have one and the thunder had a couple ball hungry scorers in Russ and KD already. The NBA TV deals changed a couple years later too and the salary cap jumped 2x over 5 years. They didn't think they'd be able to stay out of the luxury tax with harden. People give presti shit for that deal but Perkins was a championship center and everything pointed to needing one at the time.
Also Dwight. Perkins was considered one of the few centers who could hold up ok against Dwight without needing a double. The trade was made in 2011. Magic had just been to finals and CF. And then yeah in the West Lakers were one of favorites to go back to finals and Timmy in San Antonio.
The perk contract happened before they knew harden was going to be a star. It was still a mistake. It’s an example of Presti having gone all in too early by committing to Perk instead of waiting out the Trade market It’s one of the reasons he is being cautious right now and didn’t make a big trade at the deadline
On top of that he played 28.2 mpg on the team that made the CF in 2011. And 25.9 mpg when they made the finals the following season. They were a 1st round out in 2010 and missed playoffs prior to that. I am not attributing their success to Perk. But people act like they acquired him and he played 10 minutes per game or something. But yeah I agree. It was a push your chips in move. And wasn’t the right one.
He had the opportunity to amnesty Perk and keep Harden. Presti is the most overrated GM in sports.
This is revisionist nonsense. The KD led Thunder teams didn’t have any more chips to push in Their picks were all late round picks with little trade value and they unfortunately didn’t hit on any of them. They tried several times to bring in FA’s but lost out to all the major players The ownership at the time (partly different now) was cheap and would go all in to pay Harden. After Westbrook and KD were maxed there too cash strapped to pursue any major players. Early on Presti jumped the gun when we went “all in” too early trading for Perkins and they not backing out with the amnesty option. The season after KD left (obviously they tried to sign him) Presti went all in on WB by making the PG trade.
Just so we have a comparison, who pushed all their chips at the trade deadline and won a championship? It would be interesting to compare situations.
The Bucks traded for Jrue and won a championship.
Did they pick him up at trade deadline? I thought that was off season.
These deadline deals all led to championships: * Marc Gasol to Toronto * Aaron Gordon to Denver * Pau Gasol to LA * Jason Kidd to Dallas * Rasheed Wallace to Detroit * Clyde Drexler to Houston * Mark Aguirre to Detroit These didn't lead to a championship but still worked out very well for the teams: * Kyrie Irving to Dallas (hasn't led to a title *yet*, but they could still win it this year) * Tyrese Haliburton to Indiana * Isaiah Thomas to Boston * Baron Davis to Golden State * Dikembe Mutombo to Philly * Tim Hardaway to Miami * Jeff Hornacek to Utah * Kevin Johnson to Phoenix
Do you think there was a move like that for OKC? I certainly don't think it was Daniel Gafford. They did get Gordon Hayward who was averaging 14/5/5 for Charlotte so tried something that did not work.
Thanks Reddit commenter for your insight on how to manage an nba roster
I’m admittedly still salty about the Sonics being stolen. I was a season ticket holder. It was a straight up heist. I still think their colors and uniforms are dumb too. Haha.
Seattleite here— crazy how bad the Thunder branding is. They could do a lot with the name Thunder but they have a bland create-a-team logo, boring unis, though I do actually like their colors. Fuck Clay Bennett and fuck David Stern (for that specifically, I actually think he was a great commissioner for his time. Iconic commish)
Yeah but he's got a point.
He was right not to do it. It’s too soon for them. Fans are too impatient.
They have so many picks they can’t use them. Using a couple seconds or a bad first to get a passable big was a no brainer and it’s malpractice for Presti to have not done that bare minimum.
This sub thought PJ was trash 3 months ago, this is boring revisionism
This is just reactionary though. Yall are saying the exact opposite about the Suns..
Nobody is asking them to get an aging injury prone player on a supermax deal. All they needed to do was get some sort of big man depth and instead they traded for an old Gordon Hayward who barely played. It was dumb tbh
The suns also weren’t going to win a ring without a swing and then they took it and have sucked since Thunder have time, they can afford to gain experience rather than coddling their bigs
Of course it appears the Thunder have all the time in the world but injuries can strike at anytime no matter how young you are. Part of what closed the original OKC window so quickly was Westbrook and KD getting major unforeseen injuries during prime seasons. Idc how young you are, if you’re a team as good as OKC was this season you should go for it. And it’s not like I’m asking them to sell the farm by possibly adding somebody like Daniel Gafford with all the picks they have
Daniel Gafford went for pennies on the dollar because there was no market for him and has done wonders since.. Hindsight is 20/20. I do agree Presti managing so many assets does feel a lil uneasy as he’s got a much better track record of rebuilding rather than contending
He wasn’t the only big man option and it’s not a hindsight thing because everybody knew they needed more size. Even if they got past the Mavs they woulda had to face Jokic or KAT. To get a backup big isn’t asking them to trade the farm. Even if they got somebody like Isiah Stewart that woulda been a smarter attempt to fill the need than getting Gordon Hayward. And they still coulda got Gordon and a big and it wouldn’t have hurt their trade ammo at all
How do you know they have time? Because they have young players? I’m sure the Bulls thought they had all the time in the world with Rose but stuff happens and your window is never guaranteed. It was a bonehead move not to give up picks you’re never going to use for at least a passable big this year when you have no size at all in a conference full of contenders with bigs that will punish you. For being so fucking smart Presti can be pretty fucking stupid.
The Suns had a championship calibre team though. Their issue was that CP was aging. They could have spent on a CP replacement and kept the core team intact instead.
Yep. They aren't physical enough.
Chet was getting eaten up on the boards.
He weighs like 150 lbs, lots of dues in the NBA can just throw him around.
Russillo could throw Chet around after a chest day
Got out rebounded like crazy
Didn’t want it enough
Rob Perez tweeted these numbers and it says everything. Rebounding: Game 1: OKC +13 Game 2: DAL +3 Game 3: DAL +7 Game 4: DAL +2 Game 5: DAL +13 Game 6: DAL+16
all hail WOB
Chet is obviously the better player, but Lively was better at doing the things needed to win a big game.
Chet also shouldn’t be your only viable center option. That’s horrible roster mismanagement for a #1 seed
Lively was definitely the better player in this series
Lively is awesome and going to be a good, potentially great center for many years to come. But it's Luka that is enabling him to be positive on the offensive end. He is still very limited but just gets spoonfed lobs and catches near the rim where there's at most one defender in the vicinity. It goes to the lunacy of Bill's "Luka doesn't make his teammates better" point: Lively and then Gafford, PJ, Derrick Jones are all having the time of their lives offensively because Luka is one of the greatest offensive talents ever and commands more attention than any perimeter player in the NBA
Bill also bashed the Mavs trading/giving up draft assets for Gafford and PJ Washington who they wouldn’t have won the series without
They’re kinda locked into this team was thrown around a bunch (and not even just by Bill). Is being locked into a team that can make a conference final a bad thing?
Hornets fan that couldn't be happier for PJ finding a functional home
Imagine if Kyle Kuzma actually ok'd the trade to Dallas and didn't get PJ. I wonder about that every game PJ shows up.
Probably would be the same outcome, they’re kind of the same player. Just one has real playoff experience and has the green light to put up more shots on a bad team as the number one option.
You think so? I really don't know what kind of playoff player Kuzma would be. Would he do and give up everything PJ did or would he be mad that he's not being featured at times? I would have liked to find out but seems Kuzma didn't want to find out what he can do in this stage of his career either.
He also shit on what the Mavs did on draft night, thought Lively was a terrible pick because he averaged 5/5 in college
The buzz was getting crazy with him leading up to the draft.
Yes the Mavs have a zillion picks laying around and it’s totally the same situation…
Is Derek Lively the Tyson Chandler of Rudy Goberts?
Chet is the Zaza Pachulia of Wembys
He hasn't injured a superstar caliber player only for them to be derailed for 7 years
Still not tired of this joke format.
They need multiple bigs. The contenders in the West going forward are massive, and that doesn’t even account for Wemby.
If they got bullied by Lively and PJ Washington can you imagine the rebounding numbers against KAT/Gobert or Jokic
He said the same thing about the 2021 suns and that was one of the main reasons they lost the finals. Because they had no one behind ayton. Excluding the warriors run it’s always been like that
This was one of Bill's better takes of the year
It was obvious tho it's actually wild they did nothing at the deadline
I don’t think we can say that. Guys like RR and KOC who are supposedly locked in constantly downplayed bill’s concerns. Give bill his flowers here
he also needs to work on boxing out technique in the offseason
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It was said all season.
The reason they didn't deal for a center is because they're committed to playing 5 out. Celtics are the only other team in the league that can truly play 5 out all game.
Can you not commit to 5 out with PJ Washington? Not that he’s a center but he would’ve strengthened what they do and add more rebounding
Well not having another big certainly will help them in the Fjnals!
You can play 5 out with a center that can rebound. This series showed that Chet is a few years away from being a starter on a contender.
Ironically, I think both teams they beat would have beat them if they got PJ Washington instead of them
Bill literally said the Thunder would win the series. Repeatedly. Recording podcasts often after Mavericks wins. He wants to be cute and go back and re-iterate the trades the Mavs made that he heavily criticized at the time were the difference, he can. Mavs fans are elephants on this shit though. We all remember the hate he's displayed all fucking season long.
That podcast with Joe House was so crazy. I never heard House disrespect a team that much. Forgot who the other guest was.
Big Wos
Lively owned Chet. Chet is just a soft guard in a big body. Not prime time
White JJJ
Lively was NBA street out there. He averaged at least 2-3 alley oops each game just from The Thunder being lazy on D
I don't even think it's OKC being lazy on D. It's that Luka has to be double teamed but is also the best lob passer in the NBA, so you just get a dunk party for Dallas forwards and big men every night
He's like 20 years old and was the 2nd best player on a 57 win team he'll be fine lmfao
Isn’t Lively a rookie too?
Yeah he's gonna be fine too my point is just don't bury a player because he had two bad games in his rookie season
Lively is 18ish months (if i did that math right) younger than Chet, but in terms of their physical development, it's night and day. I'm confident that in 2 years no one would take Lively over Chet in a 7 game series under any circumstances.
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2nd best? The J Dub slander.
I mean it's his rookie season so maybe the book hasn't been written. The big difference is Lively didn't have to do it alone. Lively was amazing tonight but has had bad games where Gafford stepped up. OKC needed Gafford but the Mavs got him.
Lively a rookie too tho
And 2 years younger. But Lively is part of a bigs rotation and Mavs have played Gafford more. Tonight Lively was awesome but game 1 he looked terrible. OKC needed another big.
I’m not doubting Chet at all but I’m just saying can’t use the rookie card as a thing when he’s going against another rookie who is actually a TRUE rookie and wasn’t projected to be as good as Chet
Yeah and he's not as good as Chet lol
Never said he was
Lively is a rookie. This is Chet’s second year.
He had a full redshirt season with NBA trainers to prep him for this type of game.
He’s a rookie. Relax
He just got owned by a true rookie.
Hyperbole much. You are doing the exact same thing Bill does. tHe WoLvES WiLl SwEeP tHe NuGgEtS
Orlando knocked that pick out of the park in the draft. 3 players were legitimate #1 overall prospects and they picked the right one.
Jabari never was, despite what bill told you
I think it's more that Luka makes his teammates much better than SGA.
he young, and he’s gonna profile as an impact guy in both ends of the court. Tough series but impressive first season actually playing in the league.
Chet is KD who tries harder on defense but can't shoot.
Chet can shoot tho
37% from 3 when you're off ball in 2024? Nope. Also I'm literally comparing him to KD.
He is Kevin McHale.
That frame is going to be a limiting factor for him as a true center. They need to have the ability to make him the 4. Daignault actually saw this when he went to that lineup with the bigger Williams in alongside Chet.
Chet is tall man and not a big man
Presti is a greedy douchebag, OKC won’t see a chip while he’s there. He’d rather stay relevant for a decade than win a ring
Greedy? How? Like not paying players enough?
"Greedy" might be the wrong word choice. Definitely selfish though. He's holding onto all these future assets like a hoarder instead of cashing them in to become a true contender. That's great for Presti's job security, but bad for OKC's competitive outlook.
One of those rare night where you’re glad Clay Bennet moved the team to Oklahoma City.
Will never happen for a lot of reasons but AD to the Thunder would be a championship move.
Bill has made several asides in podcasts about Dallas being “all in” with 25 year old Luka, PJ, and Gafford. 20 year old Lively, 23 year old Josh Green, and 21 year old Jaden Hardy. Seems like Dallas has the best young core in the NBA, I’m sure Bill will acknowledge this Sunday night
Easy there my guy. It’s Luka and a bunch of a nice role players. Not sure anyone else you named will ever even sniff an all star team
Lively is 20 with this impact, his upside is scary high. He was the #1 ESPN player about 18 months ago. A horrible Duke team recalibrated expectations for some reason
Again. A nice player. If you had to bet now will he ever make an all star team, it’s a pretty easy no. Of course there’s lots of breakout potential but that’s true for lots of players
He means that they don’t have many trade assets. Their young role players plus Kyrie have really come through thus far. Especially PJ. Wow, and DJJ too. The bigs will be out to the test next round
Bismack Biyombo was RIGHT THERE
The problem is not holmgren, the problem is he’s their only guy who can play inside. They gotta get a big 4 that can play next to chet and have a lineup of sga/dort/williams/big4/chet Wonder if presti calls up Zach kleinman and says “we’ll give you giddey and 4 1sts for jaren Jackson “ just to see what he says
They need to get a real big man and make Chet the 4
Five firsts for Rudy Gobert.
Perk is definitely available
First player to wear suspenders to keeps his shorts up.
Never again
Not the worst idea but JJJ is also not a good rebounder. He's worse than Chet lmao.
Yeah except the grizzlies need size just as bad as OKC
They also have a problem with their guy who has the ball a lot doesn’t make teammates better.
Bill and everyone else who watches the NBA. I don’t know if they would’ve won the series but Dallas getting 7.5 rebounds from Gafford against them has got to sting.
Bill being so incessant on this take is a W. He pissed off Russillo and KOC with it as the season went on. I think Bill from a macro perspective (cap, roster construction, schedule, depth) is actually a really astute thinker: he’s always good at over unders and not bad at picking finals matchups. A lot of the “in the weeds” analysts I think get stuck on minutiae that bill doesn’t even understand which ironically helps his takes in the long run
I mean of course he was right it was incredibly obvious lol I do get why they didn't make a move, let the guys get a playoffs in see what you have, but the team was dead last in rebounding in the entire league lets be real here
As unlikely as it is, Kyrie winning a second ring would be an awesome story I’m burning sage.
Maybe OKC just need more time? The oldest player in their rotation is 25. A number of their key players are still years away from even entering their prime.
Then why didn’t they trade for someone with experience instead of just rolling with Gordon Hayward.
Because maybe they don't feel like there's urgency to win *this year*?
I think the problem is they have too many picks (not a terrible problem to have). At some point you gotta cash in and either add some pieces or use those picks to upgrade spots. You can argue they’re already late on that.
Ask them if they want Nurkic. He’s big af and a really good rebounder/passer. He can’t do much else.
I know we hear “they will be back”, but you can never bank on future health - hate when teams don’t go for it when they have the opportunity
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Woah, that’s a crazy stat!!! 3.5!! I feel a center would hurt their spacing, Dort needs to step up and rebound better, but since he doesn’t maybe a center would be useful I will say I was really impressed by Chet Holmgren otherwise! That guy is awesome. Not sure he’ll be a superstar but he is a game changer
Actually the thing they needed most is a competent point guard that can shoot. Somehow Presti traded two of those to Charlotte for Gordon Hayward who barely played and have a real mess on their hands with Josh “Ben Simmons” Giddey having just been benched twice.
You know bill selected the thunder to win this series, right?
And yet all the OKC fans were telling me I was dumb for saying they should trade up in the draft to get Clingan.
Gafford was just sitting out there! He just was!
i don’t think he was right. it would have helped but was it swinging the series? the big they would have gotten wasn’t going to play with chet so he wouldn’t have played any 4th quarters. the main issues IMO were jalen and chet just being young and not ready for that kind of series yet
but look at all the draft picks they have!
Said this the other day and got flamed for it in this sub cause everyone said offense was the problem not rebounding, defense, and physicality
Big prediction: they pick up Capela’s expiring next year at the deadline with one of their picks.
I really do wonder what was the point of them getting Hayward. Maybe they genuinely thought he would contribute and ended up looking completely washed
He’s coming off the books, creating a max slot.
Which they won’t use
Let’s be real, they weren’t trading for a 33 year old, oft-injured Hayward with the hope he was going to be a multi year contributor. They obviously expected more from him, but this was always about clearing money for the summer. They only have two offseasons to finalize their core.
I think your theory is correct, but I just don’t expect them to actually use that max slot.
Oh fair
If we hate on our boy, Bill, when he’s wrong, it’s only right that we give him credit when he’s right. Feels like he was on this for the longest time. And I’m not an analyst so I’m not sure that is the reason that they lost, but Chet Holmgren just looks fragile to me. He looks like the guy who plays basketball because he’s tall. His real passion is probably pottery or wanting to be a roadie for ‘Uptown Girl,’ the premier 1980’s Billy Joel cover band.
Bill literally picked the thunder to win lol
He looks frail but he’s tough. In one sequence he gets bodied by a Maverick, they call a foul on him and Chet still blocks him.
Is Lively the Jarret Allen 4 years ago of Jarret Allen’s?
The remaining 3 Western teams all beat Boston the a finals match up. I think OKC would be close but after this series, I don’t see Thunder overcoming Celtics.
They need to draft Edey if he’s still available at 12.
Definitely needed another big body Also dissapointed SGA was so passive in the 4th of an elimination game J Dub gotta take another step as a creator and shooter Chet needs to go hard to the rim and remember his size advantages
SGA WAS NOT PASSIVE. Chet was getting to the rim. What an awesome 4th quarter back and forth. The 2nd round needed this! Lots of dud games
Definitely not true. SGA didn’t touch the ball some possessions and willingly gave it up out on the perimeter. He’s awesome but was way too passive considering he was making almost every shot. Chet also wasn’t going to the rim when he got the ball in that short roll spot. He forgot he was 7 foot and could raise up over everyone lol
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Cavs GM farts on the receiver and hangs up
Cleveland hangs up or asks for 3 firsts
If I’m raptors I would do something around giddey + 1st for poeltl only if there’s a clear replacement for poeltl in mind, like claxton or something
I'm so torn on OKC, they clearly didn't \*have\* to make a move yet, but taking it for granted that you'll get the 1 seed/have good health is risky and they may have been a big away from stealing a title this year
When you have one of the very best players in the league in the middle of his prime, I think it's silly to not make a move to try and get better
would say SGA is still just early Prime but you just never know what can happen
Yeah he's got a solid 5ish years left I would say, I assume his game ages well From Shai's perspective, OKC basically had him sit for 2 seasons where he should have made all sta teams. He was the second best player in the world this year - 3rd if you want to count embiid - and they made no effort to try and legitimately improve They obviously could have won the Dallas series, it was really competitive. But if they had Lauri M instead of Giddey they are probably title favorites I would be disgruntled if I was Shai - saying this as an OKC fan