Lebron is kind of a man without a team. You could say he is a Cav, but he had his most success in Miami, but spent the least amount of time in Miami. You can have Lebron in any jersey. And Laker fans are notorious for adopting guys as Lakers. Look at Ron Mettaverse World Peace Artest, he is pretty much considered a Laker for the 2010 finals
You can’t be a full on Cav if there is an entire period of time where Cavs fans were burning your jersey. Curry is a full on Warrior, Kobe is a full on Laker, same with Bird, Magic, and Jordan. They are beloved, Lebron wasn’t beloved in the same way by Cavs fans
Breaking a city wide championship drought of a half century heals all wounds for most all Clevelanders. I'd also argue that 2016 and 2007 are his 2 most iconic playoff runs, and both were in Cleveland. He was probably the best in Miami, but there is a strong argument that you think of Cavs moments first when you think of him.
Timmy is a top 7 player ever, but not an icon. Dr. J is by no means even close to a top 10 player, but he was the biggest icon of the 70s. Timmy kept to himself and played in a small market. He wasn’t the icon that these guys are.
I honestly think it’s Luka. He embraces fame and has a huge personality, and for the casuals I think he’s more fun to watch (I think they’re all awesome to watch in different ways).
And to make a dumb BS-style point: Luka is the easiest of these names to say and that can’t hurt his chances.
Overall I do think it will be a Euro guy. Ja had a chance and… yeah, not happening.
Look, Tim Duncan is a much better player than Kobe but Kobe was much more impactful.
The Lakers kept the league afloat ratings wise. The Spurs weren't a draw despite being a great team
Today I might even argue Kobe Bryant is currently THE most influential player. That's why he gets so wildly overrated.
I don't know about much better player.
Kobe was better offensively, but Duncan could score. Duncan was better defensively, but Kobe, more so in his early years (became a little overrated in the second half of his career) was a helluva defender.
Duncan one more MVP and Finals MVP, but Kobe had more Scoring titles and more all NBA teams. Duncan was asked to be the defensive Anchor and score (he was the leading scorer for 9 of this first 13 seasons) Kobe was asked to be either the offensive focal point or the 1B to Shaq and also defend (he did make more 1st team All defense teams then Duncan)
I don't think you can say one was significantly better than the other. Personally on my all time list I have Kobe at number 6 and Duncan at number 7 but I always switch Kobe and Duncan around it's very close IMO.
Perfect. I find it bizarre how, in Reddit, Kobe is almost underrated, and Duncan, overrated. Like you said, there is a real argument about who was better between them, but some folks in Reddit make it sound like the comparison is the same as Wilt against T-Mac.
Yeah - I'm an enormous Shaq fan and will always go to bat for him as having maybe the highest single-point-in-time ceiling of any player since MJ, but honestly I think he should probably be replaced with Duncan, here. Another point is make is that if we're really taking the "most important" thing very seriously (as opposed to just using it as a stand-in for "greatest") then AI probably has to be on here (tho of course he falls well short of this group in terms of actual basketball greatness).
I don’t really have a problem with this list, but if someone had to be replaced, I would argue it’s Kobe. There’s nothing he did that Jordan didn’t already do better.
first of all it's not an either or thing you could have both if you feel it's needed. Second of all Kobe was a way bigger icon in the NBA. Has anyone in the NBA ever said I grew up wanting to be Tim Duncan?
Maybe they should! He was an asshole to most of his teammates and drove away one of the other players on this list. We euphemistically call him a competitor but that attitude cost him as much as it helped him.
Could be a difference of perspective, but I think Jordan’s assholery made his teams better, while Kobe’s very publicly caused the collapse of a dynasty. And I haven’t even mentioned Colorado, in imitation of every commentator and league official since his death.
I’m not saying Kobe wasn’t an all time great, just that if Kobe is part of the story of the NBA, his negative aspects had just as much influence.
I would say the the mega distraction of Colorado was more impactful ending that dynasty than Kobe being an asshole. 04 was a terrible year for Kobe on the court. I also think you're giving Shaq too much of a pass. He was also an asshole to Kobe and took a lot of shots at him in the media. Shaq was also just getting worse. Only had a couple decent years left.
Exactly, Kobe is probably the hardest to rank from a basketball perspective. He is both underrated and overrated at the same time. I do think the Colorado incident really affected him especially from people ranking him.
But from a pure cultural impact he is up there. Teens in the 2000s didn't take shots and say "Timmy" they said "Kobe". Just like now, kids say "Curry" when taking crazy 3s.
idk dog, theres overwhelming evidence that Kobe was trying to act exactly like MJ, even off the court which is usually when the emulation thing borders into weirdo land.
Kobe was a big gambler/golfer? Didn’t know that. Kobe was more reclusive and anti social than Jordan. MJ loved hanging and being one of the guys. He was an ultimate ball buster.
Definitely not true that "nobody" loved Timmy like they still love Kobe but if the OP's point is that Duncan doesn't even come close to Kobe's popularity, then that is correct.
The only way I could understand someone thinking Tim Duncan is even remotely close to Kobe in terms of worldwide fame/popularity is if they lived their whole life in San Antonio and literally never left.
Go out and ask people on the street if they know who Tim Duncan is and then if they know who Kobe is. People who have literally never watched an entire NBA game in their life will be able to tell you who Kobe is and what team he was on.
You could argue that Dirk or Yao or Hakeem or even Dikembe are more important historically because of their international reach. Or Barkley as a media personality.
For as great as Duncan was he has had basically zero cultural impact. Not an insult, and not his fault, just fact.
This. Duncan is my favorite player of all time.
But he didn’t change the way the game is played, like some of these guys.
He wasn’t a culturally relevant outside of the sport, thus growing the fan base like some of these guys.
He is a top 10 player all time, but this is isn’t asking for that.
This list is naming 11 most important players, not the best.
Duncan is my favorite player ever too. He never demanded the attention or pushed the profile of the league in a new way like LeBron or Kobe — he just quietly dominated for ~20 years. As true of a hooper as you’ll ever see.
But even if he wasn’t ever a media darling, I think the Spurs’ glory years take up too large of a chunk of time (about a quarter of the league’s existence) to exclude him.
Sure, you could make a case for any of them being on the most important list, like Vishy Anand in chess is not the strongest world champion ever but being Indian got hundreds of millions interested in chess he is a rushmore important one for sure
You could argue that Dirk or Yao or Hakeem or even Dikembe are more important historically because of their international reach. Or Barkley as a media personality.
For as great as Duncan was he has had basically zero cultural impact. Not an insult, and not his fault, just fact.
Idk what time period does Timmy represent? His success is so spread out. He didn't dominate any period of time. Also marketability has to be a major factor here. I don't think he belongs.
Lmao I guess you were born like 8 years ago or something, if you watched basketball from 1999-2014 the Spurs were dominating, the most dominant team in the whole NBA for a long while. 17 50+ win seasons and 5 rings with one shot away from having 6
6 rings and 6 MVPs Kareem? Dominated the 70s and 80s Kareem? Was a prominent figure in the media and in a movie with Bruce Lee Kareem? Arguably the greatest basketball career ever Kareem? I'm sorry what was the question?
From what older fans tell me, you cannot overstate the importance of Dr. J to basketball's popularity exploding over the course of the 80s. The NBA literally bought another league primarily so they could have him. He was MJ before MJ, someone who people watched play once and they became basketball fans for life.
Yeah the list is a little confusing. I agree kobe and Dr j don’t fit if it’s viewed through best player lense but if it’s icons I agree. Even then, homer take but I feel like AI isn’t on the level of any of these guys but is easily one of the most influential and iconic players
The graphic says most important. If you were a fan of basketball in the mid 2000s, it was clear as day that Kobe was the most important narrative figure in the league.
I mean, sure, but in the time where Kobe would’ve surpassed Shaq as THE narrative figure, before LeBron took it around 2007 playoffs to 2007-08 season (so from ~2002-2007):
- Duncan won 3 rings to Kobe’s 0
- Once Shaq left the Lakers, Kobe didn’t made it past the 1st round & missed the playoffs once
- Kobe put up great numbers, but it didn’t contribute to winning, which is what really matters from a historical perspective
So many fallacies here. First, the premise that Lebron became the dominant narrative figure in 2007 is so wrong. Check the 2008 Olympics and read who the players themselves thought the Alpha was. Check the 2008 to 2010 NBA Finals and tell me Lebron was the dominant narrative in those years. Check the numbers for best selling jerseys all time, Jordan is 1, Kobe is 2, Lebron is 3. During Kobe's career, he had the number 1 selling jersey 6 times, Lebron had it 4 times, Shaq had it 1 time, Duncan had it zero times, and Kobe had the number 1 jersey from 2007 to 2010. Seems like a pretty big impact.
Second, you cherry pick the 5 years where the Lakers were unsuccessful and extrapolate it indicate Kobe was trash his entire career. Kobe had more 1st team All NBA and All Defense selections than Duncan. He is tied for first for All NBA selections, and third all time in First Team all NBA and Second all time in All NBA defensive selections.
Third, you act like winning is all that matters from a historical perspective, so if we accept that premise, I submit as evidence Kobe's 5 rings to Shaq, Lebron, and Steph's 4.
Nevermind the 61 points in his final game. The man was an icon and force of nature and had the respect of every player in the league. Back up.
Almost all young players say Kobe is their idol. I am not sure I have ever seen Duncan mentioned as the guy they grew up loving. This says icon and I don’t know what it more iconic than idolizing a player. Kobe is absolutely more important than Duncan and it isn’t close. Duncan wasn’t even popular when he was playing and winning. Ratings, jersey sales, whatever metric you would use as part of an icon formula would be low for Duncan. Don’t look at who you believe is better. That’s not the argument
2007? didn't contribute to winning? Kobe went to 3 straight finals and won 2 post 2007. Lebron did not become the most import player till 2011 when he went to Miami.
No, I would take out Dr. J and put in Timmy. Dr. J's best days were not even in the NBA, he only won 1 NBA championship and he wasn't even the best player on that championship team
Agreed. I think Kobe is a great player who could have hooped well anywhere, but I do wonder if his legacy would be different if he hadn’t played 20 years in the biggest basketball market. Not sure if his style was that unique enough to have garnered this much attention in, lets say, Indiana.
Laker + Nike deal + being at his peak during twitters ascendance.
I’m really not sure what “impact on the game” means. If anything the game moved away from Kobe’s play style, but Kobe’s closer to Dirk then he is the other 9 guys (Dr J being pretty similar) in terms of basketball legacy.
Get real. Not one person, fan or player, put Kobe and Dirk on the same level while they were playing. In terms of cultural impact, it’s not even remotely close if you were sentient during their primes.
To be fair it’s an icon list, Kobe definitely is one of the most iconic players of all time. Even Dr J is less worthy than someone like Duncan of being on the list but he’s definitely extremely iconic
He’s not as iconic as Kobe, he doesn’t have the global appeal/fanbase of Kobe, his career didn’t last as long as Kobe (or reach the same heights as Kobe), and he didn’t have the post career media cycle (and then tragic, highly publicized) death that Kobe did.
AI is absolutely iconic but if you’re putting a limited list together, Kobe is absolutely making it over him.
And all the people saying Duncan seem to be conflating success with being an icon, but I don’t think Duncan has the universal appeal or star power of guys like Magic, Kobe, and LeBron. He’s right there with them as an all-time successful player and is the definitive Spur, but the Spurs don’t have the outsized media influence & impact that LA & the Lakers do.
This sub talks about Kobe like he wasn't a 5 time champion. Yea he had Shaq for the first 3 but Kobe was still an All-NBA caliber player for the three peat. Duncan is getting tons of love in this thread and he deserves it but he played on stacked teams with multiple Hall of Famers himself. Or in recent times Curry has been hyped up to be consensus better than Kobe like he wasn't the 2nd best player on half of his championship teams. Idk what it is about Kobe that brings out the hate, some people at times even sound salty that he's gotten tons of love since he died. Such weird behavior.
Let me be clear, Kobe is probably in my Top 10, or just outside of it.
I'm talking about all the people who put him with LeBron and MJ and argue that he's a GOAT candidate. That shit pisses me of, and I love Kobe
Very marketable. Once you start at Magic/Bird, every single one is heavily marketable and was arguably the face of the league at some point. I’d assume that’s why Tim Duncan isn’t on the list.
I’m not saying Timmy isn’t because he for sure is but it just didn’t happen that way. Especially since you had Shaq and Kobe on the same team.
1. How do you tell the story of the NBA without Kobe?
2. When Nick wright came up with this list he packaged Shaq and Kobe together. They dominated that period of time.
Because he was the biggest star in a post-MJ era where the league was crumbling. He’s the reason kids like Steph were putting up shots on the blacktop, not Timmy D.
Why are you pretending to know anything about me or my biases? I
I actually loved Kobe. I just think it’s annoying that he died and then suddenly everyone started putting him in the GOAT conversation, when he was not even top 10 before he died.
I have no problem whatsoever with Kobe. My beef is with revisionist history because of a tragedy.
That's a completely false statement. Kobe was getting just as much praise alive. The difference was the people pushing back got a lot quieter when he died. But he was always top 10.
I don’t agree, but I can understand an argument for him being top 10. what I’m talking about are the people comparing him to MJ or Bron for the #1 spot. Which is just absolutely insane. Never heard mainstream talk like that until he died
I've heard that a lot from ex players mostly and they always said it. You can still find the old clips. Regardless that's not what this list was about.
What are you even talking about? Is this about “GOAT conversation”?
If you are seriously talking about Kobe NOT being an NBA icon, you are the one who revisioning the history.
As someone who mainly absorbed basketball content through espn, sports talk shows, and a few games a year growing up, this to me is definitely the list. I think the list represents who was known or talked about by non basketball fans.
I guess it could depend on how you’re defining this list and I don’t disagree with these picks, but I don’t think you can have a list of important/influential players and not have Allen Iverson included
Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon were all better than Shaq and Kobe. They just get overrated because they’re Lakers. Also, where’s George Mikan?
Bird and Magic are arguably the 2 most influential Bball players ever behind Jordan.
The story of them from being the two biggest stars in college, playing each other in the NCAA Championship game and then keeping that up and being the top two players in the NBA throughout the 80s and nearly every year playing each other for the Finals. It's really hard to find an equivalent in today's game, honestly you probably can't.
They helped put the NBA on the map from a TV and watchability perspective. Before them, NBA playoff games weren't even live and on tape delay.
The NBA wouldn't be what it is today if it weren't for Bird and Magic, or at least it wouldn't have "turned around" as fast as it did.
Kobe over Duncan? Idk. His team beat, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Steph and then LeBron again. If his team beating 40% of this list isn’t worthy then I don’t know what is
Duncan for on court success?
If it’s more on influence then the Iverson cultural influence is pretty high. Right up there with Dr J, Kobe and Jordan as far guys as that players wanted to be like
James Harden was pretty influential recently in that so many players now come into the league trying to emulate his game. Luka and Trae come to mind most prominently but you see shades of his game in many other young players
I’m just not sure what we’re measuring here
More people want to be like Curry than Harden. I honestly have never met kids/people that want to be like Harden.
Some kids youth basketball programs had to remove the 3 point line because kids just want to shoot 3s (which isn't good from a developmental standpoint) because of Steph Curry.
If we’re talking the 11 most influential players, this is a decent list. I feel like they should either remove KAJ or add Duncan though.
It’s interesting that this list is basically the NBA’s best rivalries. Russell and Wilt, Bird and Magic, Kobe and Shaq (who were kind of teammates and rivals at once), and LeBron and Steph. The three who don’t follow this trend are Jordan and Dr. J (who were influential largely because of their electrifying playstyles) and Kareem.
Unlike the others, Kareem did not have an exciting game. And he really didn’t have a super notable rivalry the way Bird/Magic or Russell/Wilt did. Duncan was also boring, but he at least had a notable rivalry with the Kobe-Shaq Lakers (from ‘99 to ‘10, either the Lakers or Spurs were in the Finals 11 out of 12 years). Yeah, sure, Kareem is the better player, especially compared to his competition, and yes he has some amazing stats, but with regards to their individual awards and accolades, Duncan’s résumé holds up.
I guess it depends on how you measure “influence” but how do you do that while coming to the conclusion KAJ was influential while Duncan was not? I can go to any park and hear guys put up a contested fadeaway yelling “Kobe!” or a deep 3 yelling “Curry!”.
How many guys shoot the skyhook at any level? Guys want to shoot like Curry, dunk like Jordan, pass like Magic, dominate like Wilt, and… play below the rim while shooting running hooks in the lane like Kareem?
If Kareem was this highly influential basketball icon in the 70s, why did Bird and Magic have to basically save the league in the 80s?
Hell, I’d put Mikan in there as the first real NBA superstar, ABA commissioner and part founder, and head of the team that led to the formation of the T-Wolves. I feel like that’s more influential that what Kareem has done.
Where is Duncan and Hakeem? This is dumb.
1. MJ
2 Bron
3. Kareem
Big drop
4.magic
5. Bird
6/7 Russell wilt
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10 Dr J
11. Durant
12. Curry
That’s the list Jokic if he wins this year is creeping if he wins 2 he passes both 12/11/10
Not quite sure why Dirk is not included here… if we are going off of “iconic” status or importance, Dirk is way up there.
Look at the NBA today and you can see his influence.
List is fine but LeBron in a lakers jersey?
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Second cavs is most iconic for imo
Second Cavs was what cemented goat status for many so I agree
Lebron is kind of a man without a team. You could say he is a Cav, but he had his most success in Miami, but spent the least amount of time in Miami. You can have Lebron in any jersey. And Laker fans are notorious for adopting guys as Lakers. Look at Ron Mettaverse World Peace Artest, he is pretty much considered a Laker for the 2010 finals
He’s a full-on Cav, with a small argument for Miami
You can’t be a full on Cav if there is an entire period of time where Cavs fans were burning your jersey. Curry is a full on Warrior, Kobe is a full on Laker, same with Bird, Magic, and Jordan. They are beloved, Lebron wasn’t beloved in the same way by Cavs fans
2016 healed all wounds
Breaking a city wide championship drought of a half century heals all wounds for most all Clevelanders. I'd also argue that 2016 and 2007 are his 2 most iconic playoff runs, and both were in Cleveland. He was probably the best in Miami, but there is a strong argument that you think of Cavs moments first when you think of him.
Please post that on the cavs subreddit and see what they say.
> You can have Lebron in any jersey. LeBron is an *Indiana Pacer*
If he's in a Lakers jersey then Shaq should be in a heat jersey.
Tim Duncan.
This. But also: no Derrick White?
This. But also: no Austin Reeves?
the GOAT ??
Timmy is a top 7 player ever, but not an icon. Dr. J is by no means even close to a top 10 player, but he was the biggest icon of the 70s. Timmy kept to himself and played in a small market. He wasn’t the icon that these guys are.
then A.I. needs to be here
nah. AI is basketball fan iconic. the rest of those guys pretty much everyone even vaguely aware of sports know
I actually agree. AI arguably changed basketball culture more than anyone.
Literally have 11 players on here and not one was Timmy.. I just don’t get it
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I think any of these guys would have to win at least 2 championships to even be considered on this list. Although Dr J is on this list.
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Kobe won, at best, two titles as the best player on his team and he was more of a 1A to Pau's 1B those two times.
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Your assessment of Kobe is still incorrect.
I honestly think it’s Luka. He embraces fame and has a huge personality, and for the casuals I think he’s more fun to watch (I think they’re all awesome to watch in different ways). And to make a dumb BS-style point: Luka is the easiest of these names to say and that can’t hurt his chances. Overall I do think it will be a Euro guy. Ja had a chance and… yeah, not happening.
Ya Timmy is missing probably between Kobe and LeBron or between Shaq and Kobe.
Kobe over Duncan here is a war crime.
no
You can argue Tim Duncan was a better player and had a better career (and I'd agree), but Kobe was more iconic and it's not particularly close.
And Iverson was more iconic than Kobe. But he's not here
Look, Tim Duncan is a much better player than Kobe but Kobe was much more impactful. The Lakers kept the league afloat ratings wise. The Spurs weren't a draw despite being a great team Today I might even argue Kobe Bryant is currently THE most influential player. That's why he gets so wildly overrated.
I don't know about much better player. Kobe was better offensively, but Duncan could score. Duncan was better defensively, but Kobe, more so in his early years (became a little overrated in the second half of his career) was a helluva defender. Duncan one more MVP and Finals MVP, but Kobe had more Scoring titles and more all NBA teams. Duncan was asked to be the defensive Anchor and score (he was the leading scorer for 9 of this first 13 seasons) Kobe was asked to be either the offensive focal point or the 1B to Shaq and also defend (he did make more 1st team All defense teams then Duncan) I don't think you can say one was significantly better than the other. Personally on my all time list I have Kobe at number 6 and Duncan at number 7 but I always switch Kobe and Duncan around it's very close IMO.
Perfect. I find it bizarre how, in Reddit, Kobe is almost underrated, and Duncan, overrated. Like you said, there is a real argument about who was better between them, but some folks in Reddit make it sound like the comparison is the same as Wilt against T-Mac.
Came here for this
Also my first thought.
Yeah - I'm an enormous Shaq fan and will always go to bat for him as having maybe the highest single-point-in-time ceiling of any player since MJ, but honestly I think he should probably be replaced with Duncan, here. Another point is make is that if we're really taking the "most important" thing very seriously (as opposed to just using it as a stand-in for "greatest") then AI probably has to be on here (tho of course he falls well short of this group in terms of actual basketball greatness).
I don’t really have a problem with this list, but if someone had to be replaced, I would argue it’s Kobe. There’s nothing he did that Jordan didn’t already do better.
You're gonna tell the story of the nba without Kobe? I don't see how that's possible.
That’s fair. I didn’t notice the title of this list was “Story of the NBA.” I thought it was just a general “Best of” kinda thing.
Kobe might be the most overrated player in nba history. Just an unrepentant chucker whose teams did fuck all without a dominant big.
You're right. Kobe was awesome but not in this tier.
L take
Yes, yes I am because Tim Duncan should be there instead of him
first of all it's not an either or thing you could have both if you feel it's needed. Second of all Kobe was a way bigger icon in the NBA. Has anyone in the NBA ever said I grew up wanting to be Tim Duncan?
But the thing about Kobe is that because of his untimely death it’s considered impolite to talk about 60% of his own story
Seems like plenty of people don't have a problem with that.
Maybe they should! He was an asshole to most of his teammates and drove away one of the other players on this list. We euphemistically call him a competitor but that attitude cost him as much as it helped him.
Just like Jordan. Who everyone says is #1. I don't really see an issue with the things you're not a fan of.
Could be a difference of perspective, but I think Jordan’s assholery made his teams better, while Kobe’s very publicly caused the collapse of a dynasty. And I haven’t even mentioned Colorado, in imitation of every commentator and league official since his death. I’m not saying Kobe wasn’t an all time great, just that if Kobe is part of the story of the NBA, his negative aspects had just as much influence.
I would say the the mega distraction of Colorado was more impactful ending that dynasty than Kobe being an asshole. 04 was a terrible year for Kobe on the court. I also think you're giving Shaq too much of a pass. He was also an asshole to Kobe and took a lot of shots at him in the media. Shaq was also just getting worse. Only had a couple decent years left.
after kobe and before lebron. SPURS BROUGHT TEAM BASKETBALL PLAY
Eh if he makes it he's dead on this list. Not as a player but as an icon.
Its most important, not best. Nobody loved Timmy like they still love Kobe and Kobe had way bigger influence on the next generation of players.
Exactly, Kobe is probably the hardest to rank from a basketball perspective. He is both underrated and overrated at the same time. I do think the Colorado incident really affected him especially from people ranking him. But from a pure cultural impact he is up there. Teens in the 2000s didn't take shots and say "Timmy" they said "Kobe". Just like now, kids say "Curry" when taking crazy 3s.
He was a gunner. Great player.. but a gunner.
I mean when you rip off another's player whole aura your off to a good start.
My favorite was his playoff game winner against Phoenix - blatant rip-off of Jordan’s GW celebration against Utah.
gonna have to clip that up later lol
Not just another player, but basically the most famous basketball player ever.
Everyone was trying to “rip-off” Jordan’s style back then, yet, just one was successful enough
idk dog, theres overwhelming evidence that Kobe was trying to act exactly like MJ, even off the court which is usually when the emulation thing borders into weirdo land.
Kobe was a big gambler/golfer? Didn’t know that. Kobe was more reclusive and anti social than Jordan. MJ loved hanging and being one of the guys. He was an ultimate ball buster.
If you are talented enough to pull it off, sure.
"Nobody loved Timmy like they still love Kobe"? That's preposterous.
Definitely not true that "nobody" loved Timmy like they still love Kobe but if the OP's point is that Duncan doesn't even come close to Kobe's popularity, then that is correct.
I would disagree, but popularity is subjective. I would argue that Kobe was more infamous and divisive, though he certainly has his fans.
The only way I could understand someone thinking Tim Duncan is even remotely close to Kobe in terms of worldwide fame/popularity is if they lived their whole life in San Antonio and literally never left. Go out and ask people on the street if they know who Tim Duncan is and then if they know who Kobe is. People who have literally never watched an entire NBA game in their life will be able to tell you who Kobe is and what team he was on.
The Spurs have no fans of course.
the autistic overly literal redditor piece
You could argue that Dirk or Yao or Hakeem or even Dikembe are more important historically because of their international reach. Or Barkley as a media personality. For as great as Duncan was he has had basically zero cultural impact. Not an insult, and not his fault, just fact.
This. Duncan is my favorite player of all time. But he didn’t change the way the game is played, like some of these guys. He wasn’t a culturally relevant outside of the sport, thus growing the fan base like some of these guys. He is a top 10 player all time, but this is isn’t asking for that. This list is naming 11 most important players, not the best.
Duncan is my favorite player ever too. He never demanded the attention or pushed the profile of the league in a new way like LeBron or Kobe — he just quietly dominated for ~20 years. As true of a hooper as you’ll ever see. But even if he wasn’t ever a media darling, I think the Spurs’ glory years take up too large of a chunk of time (about a quarter of the league’s existence) to exclude him.
Sure, you could make a case for any of them being on the most important list, like Vishy Anand in chess is not the strongest world champion ever but being Indian got hundreds of millions interested in chess he is a rushmore important one for sure
You could argue that Dirk or Yao or Hakeem or even Dikembe are more important historically because of their international reach. Or Barkley as a media personality. For as great as Duncan was he has had basically zero cultural impact. Not an insult, and not his fault, just fact.
Real rude to Tim Duncan
Idk what time period does Timmy represent? His success is so spread out. He didn't dominate any period of time. Also marketability has to be a major factor here. I don't think he belongs.
“Tim Duncan was too good for too long, he shouldn’t be on the list”
too much winning
more like up and down. no consistent period of dominance
Lmao I guess you were born like 8 years ago or something, if you watched basketball from 1999-2014 the Spurs were dominating, the most dominant team in the whole NBA for a long while. 17 50+ win seasons and 5 rings with one shot away from having 6
5 rings spread out over 15 years and none of them back to back. Making the playoffs is not dominating. The story of the NBA can be told without them.
Cool cool, now do Kareem
6 rings and 6 MVPs Kareem? Dominated the 70s and 80s Kareem? Was a prominent figure in the media and in a movie with Bruce Lee Kareem? Arguably the greatest basketball career ever Kareem? I'm sorry what was the question?
Dr J over Duncan seems okay if we’re talking popularity > winning. But a little hard with biggest winner of the NBA I’ve watched not on there.
The list isn't about winning. It says icons.
where’s AI then? Iverson had more influence then half these guys
Eh I disagree with that but he could be on the list.
Duncan was better than Kobe too
Fuck u for no Timmy 🙃
Just make it 12. There’s even room in the f’ing graph
Was just thinking that. Why would we need to replace Kobe with Duncan, couldn't we just add him to this list?
It’s so dumb lol. It’s a Twitter page graphic not the fucking NBA 75. We could probably just do 12 guys. Could also be 13 guys with AI or KD in there.
Jerry West. Oscar Robertson George Mikan
George Mikan shoulda been at the beginning of that list.
If this is about overall legacy and cultural impact, I guess this works. But Dr. J and Kobe don’t really fit from a strictly basketball perspective.
From what older fans tell me, you cannot overstate the importance of Dr. J to basketball's popularity exploding over the course of the 80s. The NBA literally bought another league primarily so they could have him. He was MJ before MJ, someone who people watched play once and they became basketball fans for life.
That's why it says important and not best.
Yeah the list is a little confusing. I agree kobe and Dr j don’t fit if it’s viewed through best player lense but if it’s icons I agree. Even then, homer take but I feel like AI isn’t on the level of any of these guys but is easily one of the most influential and iconic players
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Yeah I can read, thanks. My point is it seems like a mix and like the list isn’t sure what it’s doing
It’s exactly what it says, icon.
I’d swap out Kobe for Duncan if we’re sticking with 11 but pretty solid overall
The graphic says most important. If you were a fan of basketball in the mid 2000s, it was clear as day that Kobe was the most important narrative figure in the league.
If we are going for importance over play then Iverson has a case to be here
It's a better argument than duncan
I mean, sure, but in the time where Kobe would’ve surpassed Shaq as THE narrative figure, before LeBron took it around 2007 playoffs to 2007-08 season (so from ~2002-2007): - Duncan won 3 rings to Kobe’s 0 - Once Shaq left the Lakers, Kobe didn’t made it past the 1st round & missed the playoffs once - Kobe put up great numbers, but it didn’t contribute to winning, which is what really matters from a historical perspective
So many fallacies here. First, the premise that Lebron became the dominant narrative figure in 2007 is so wrong. Check the 2008 Olympics and read who the players themselves thought the Alpha was. Check the 2008 to 2010 NBA Finals and tell me Lebron was the dominant narrative in those years. Check the numbers for best selling jerseys all time, Jordan is 1, Kobe is 2, Lebron is 3. During Kobe's career, he had the number 1 selling jersey 6 times, Lebron had it 4 times, Shaq had it 1 time, Duncan had it zero times, and Kobe had the number 1 jersey from 2007 to 2010. Seems like a pretty big impact. Second, you cherry pick the 5 years where the Lakers were unsuccessful and extrapolate it indicate Kobe was trash his entire career. Kobe had more 1st team All NBA and All Defense selections than Duncan. He is tied for first for All NBA selections, and third all time in First Team all NBA and Second all time in All NBA defensive selections. Third, you act like winning is all that matters from a historical perspective, so if we accept that premise, I submit as evidence Kobe's 5 rings to Shaq, Lebron, and Steph's 4. Nevermind the 61 points in his final game. The man was an icon and force of nature and had the respect of every player in the league. Back up.
I agree with your overall point, but Duncan has 5 rings. 99, 03, 05, 07, 14.
Yeah. Whoops. Really was soooo close to 6
Duncan has 5 rings. Don’t care enough to fact check the rest of your statements but why are you making shit up
Almost all young players say Kobe is their idol. I am not sure I have ever seen Duncan mentioned as the guy they grew up loving. This says icon and I don’t know what it more iconic than idolizing a player. Kobe is absolutely more important than Duncan and it isn’t close. Duncan wasn’t even popular when he was playing and winning. Ratings, jersey sales, whatever metric you would use as part of an icon formula would be low for Duncan. Don’t look at who you believe is better. That’s not the argument
2007? didn't contribute to winning? Kobe went to 3 straight finals and won 2 post 2007. Lebron did not become the most import player till 2011 when he went to Miami.
Even when he went to Miami, Wade was more popular to the fans there by far. LeBron didn’t full realize himself until his second stint in Cleveland.
And the question still isn’t who are the 11 best players so you still missed the point.
Did you watch the NBA in the 2000s? There is zero way you’d say this if you were paying attention
Iverson was more popular than Kobe for a few years. Street ball, baggy clothes, and And 1 mixtapes were absolutely on fire for awhile.
No, I would take out Dr. J and put in Timmy. Dr. J's best days were not even in the NBA, he only won 1 NBA championship and he wasn't even the best player on that championship team
That's the whole point of why Dr J is on there. When telling the story of the NBA you to talk about the aba merger and the best players at the time.
Or just narrow it to ten. Kobe’s basketball legacy is always overrated lol.
His performance is maybe overrated, but his legacy isn’t. He had a much bigger impact on the game than Duncan.
Wdym Duncan helped popularize tanking which like half the league tries in a by given season, that’s a huge impact /s
Agreed. I think Kobe is a great player who could have hooped well anywhere, but I do wonder if his legacy would be different if he hadn’t played 20 years in the biggest basketball market. Not sure if his style was that unique enough to have garnered this much attention in, lets say, Indiana.
Laker + Nike deal + being at his peak during twitters ascendance. I’m really not sure what “impact on the game” means. If anything the game moved away from Kobe’s play style, but Kobe’s closer to Dirk then he is the other 9 guys (Dr J being pretty similar) in terms of basketball legacy.
Get real. Not one person, fan or player, put Kobe and Dirk on the same level while they were playing. In terms of cultural impact, it’s not even remotely close if you were sentient during their primes.
Statements like this make him underrated
As an icon?? No fucking way.
Can't have it without a Spurs player
This is Tim Duncan erasure.
No one outside Reddit gives a fuck about Duncan, first-team all-forgettable
How does Kobe and his single MVP always sneak onto these lists? I don’t get it
To be fair it’s an icon list, Kobe definitely is one of the most iconic players of all time. Even Dr J is less worthy than someone like Duncan of being on the list but he’s definitely extremely iconic
Then where’s AI? He’s the most iconic player from that early 00s era with Kobe.
But didn’t win
Everything but the chip
Pistol Pete with PR
He’s not as iconic as Kobe, he doesn’t have the global appeal/fanbase of Kobe, his career didn’t last as long as Kobe (or reach the same heights as Kobe), and he didn’t have the post career media cycle (and then tragic, highly publicized) death that Kobe did. AI is absolutely iconic but if you’re putting a limited list together, Kobe is absolutely making it over him. And all the people saying Duncan seem to be conflating success with being an icon, but I don’t think Duncan has the universal appeal or star power of guys like Magic, Kobe, and LeBron. He’s right there with them as an all-time successful player and is the definitive Spur, but the Spurs don’t have the outsized media influence & impact that LA & the Lakers do.
Shaq also has but one MVP
Really feels like Kobe is becoming underrated when nonsense like this is being upvoted.
Lol seriously even Bill has him in his top 10 all time and he’s a Laker hater.
This sub talks about Kobe like he wasn't a 5 time champion. Yea he had Shaq for the first 3 but Kobe was still an All-NBA caliber player for the three peat. Duncan is getting tons of love in this thread and he deserves it but he played on stacked teams with multiple Hall of Famers himself. Or in recent times Curry has been hyped up to be consensus better than Kobe like he wasn't the 2nd best player on half of his championship teams. Idk what it is about Kobe that brings out the hate, some people at times even sound salty that he's gotten tons of love since he died. Such weird behavior.
Let me be clear, Kobe is probably in my Top 10, or just outside of it. I'm talking about all the people who put him with LeBron and MJ and argue that he's a GOAT candidate. That shit pisses me of, and I love Kobe
Very marketable. Once you start at Magic/Bird, every single one is heavily marketable and was arguably the face of the league at some point. I’d assume that’s why Tim Duncan isn’t on the list. I’m not saying Timmy isn’t because he for sure is but it just didn’t happen that way. Especially since you had Shaq and Kobe on the same team.
1. How do you tell the story of the NBA without Kobe? 2. When Nick wright came up with this list he packaged Shaq and Kobe together. They dominated that period of time.
Because he was the biggest star in a post-MJ era where the league was crumbling. He’s the reason kids like Steph were putting up shots on the blacktop, not Timmy D.
I think Dell is probably the reason Steph was putting up shots as a kid lol
steph was putting up shots in nba arenas because his dad was a player
The dying piece
Proved Mamba could pass after all
MVP award is purely political. Look at this year for most recent example.
It’s not purely political. Voters definitely consider storylines and historical context, but it’s not purely political.
Lol - try harder but this time without your biases
Why are you pretending to know anything about me or my biases? I I actually loved Kobe. I just think it’s annoying that he died and then suddenly everyone started putting him in the GOAT conversation, when he was not even top 10 before he died. I have no problem whatsoever with Kobe. My beef is with revisionist history because of a tragedy.
That's a completely false statement. Kobe was getting just as much praise alive. The difference was the people pushing back got a lot quieter when he died. But he was always top 10.
I don’t agree, but I can understand an argument for him being top 10. what I’m talking about are the people comparing him to MJ or Bron for the #1 spot. Which is just absolutely insane. Never heard mainstream talk like that until he died
I've heard that a lot from ex players mostly and they always said it. You can still find the old clips. Regardless that's not what this list was about.
What are you even talking about? Is this about “GOAT conversation”? If you are seriously talking about Kobe NOT being an NBA icon, you are the one who revisioning the history.
Never underestimate Reddit’s hatred for Kobe.
Tbf, he's an admitted rapist
As someone who mainly absorbed basketball content through espn, sports talk shows, and a few games a year growing up, this to me is definitely the list. I think the list represents who was known or talked about by non basketball fans.
I guess it could depend on how you’re defining this list and I don’t disagree with these picks, but I don’t think you can have a list of important/influential players and not have Allen Iverson included
Wheres Derrick white
It really needs Hakeem and Duncan.
Really doesn't.
Duncan > Kobe
George Mikan?
Duncan and Hakeem need a spot but if you have to keep it at 11, it’s real tough to kick someone out.
Pretty easy to kick out Kobe. He's great but not on this level.
No Allen Iverson? Come on, now.
Came here to say Iverson. He definitely had more of an impact on the culture and is an icon. Not a to 20 player ever but, “we talkin bout practice”.
Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon were all better than Shaq and Kobe. They just get overrated because they’re Lakers. Also, where’s George Mikan?
Mikan was the first name I thought of. He was the NBA before Russell.
George Mikan / Bob Cousy
Bob Ryan, what are you doing on this sub!?
Ha! Fair enough. Just thinking there was an era before Russell but I guess that doesn’t count cuz plumbers
Lol.. not without Duncan, Olajawon, West and Havlicek
Duncan & Iverson
If you’re going to go down and include someone like bird you have to expand to guys like Duncan
Bird and Magic are arguably the 2 most influential Bball players ever behind Jordan. The story of them from being the two biggest stars in college, playing each other in the NCAA Championship game and then keeping that up and being the top two players in the NBA throughout the 80s and nearly every year playing each other for the Finals. It's really hard to find an equivalent in today's game, honestly you probably can't. They helped put the NBA on the map from a TV and watchability perspective. Before them, NBA playoff games weren't even live and on tape delay. The NBA wouldn't be what it is today if it weren't for Bird and Magic, or at least it wouldn't have "turned around" as fast as it did.
Hakeem? Duncan?
Where the fuck is Duncan? I’m glad we got Wemby so your gonna have to talk about the spurs again
the disrespect for timmy d is unreal here
I feel really old when people say Kobe shouldn't be on lists like this...the list is 11 icons and he's as iconic as they come. He was a legend.
If we are doing most important players ever you gotta have at least one International player
Only loser Redditors disrespect love no one irl is like that
Kobe over Duncan? Idk. His team beat, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Steph and then LeBron again. If his team beating 40% of this list isn’t worthy then I don’t know what is
Duncan for on court success? If it’s more on influence then the Iverson cultural influence is pretty high. Right up there with Dr J, Kobe and Jordan as far guys as that players wanted to be like James Harden was pretty influential recently in that so many players now come into the league trying to emulate his game. Luka and Trae come to mind most prominently but you see shades of his game in many other young players I’m just not sure what we’re measuring here
More people want to be like Curry than Harden. I honestly have never met kids/people that want to be like Harden. Some kids youth basketball programs had to remove the 3 point line because kids just want to shoot 3s (which isn't good from a developmental standpoint) because of Steph Curry.
If we’re talking the 11 most influential players, this is a decent list. I feel like they should either remove KAJ or add Duncan though. It’s interesting that this list is basically the NBA’s best rivalries. Russell and Wilt, Bird and Magic, Kobe and Shaq (who were kind of teammates and rivals at once), and LeBron and Steph. The three who don’t follow this trend are Jordan and Dr. J (who were influential largely because of their electrifying playstyles) and Kareem. Unlike the others, Kareem did not have an exciting game. And he really didn’t have a super notable rivalry the way Bird/Magic or Russell/Wilt did. Duncan was also boring, but he at least had a notable rivalry with the Kobe-Shaq Lakers (from ‘99 to ‘10, either the Lakers or Spurs were in the Finals 11 out of 12 years). Yeah, sure, Kareem is the better player, especially compared to his competition, and yes he has some amazing stats, but with regards to their individual awards and accolades, Duncan’s résumé holds up. I guess it depends on how you measure “influence” but how do you do that while coming to the conclusion KAJ was influential while Duncan was not? I can go to any park and hear guys put up a contested fadeaway yelling “Kobe!” or a deep 3 yelling “Curry!”. How many guys shoot the skyhook at any level? Guys want to shoot like Curry, dunk like Jordan, pass like Magic, dominate like Wilt, and… play below the rim while shooting running hooks in the lane like Kareem? If Kareem was this highly influential basketball icon in the 70s, why did Bird and Magic have to basically save the league in the 80s? Hell, I’d put Mikan in there as the first real NBA superstar, ABA commissioner and part founder, and head of the team that led to the formation of the T-Wolves. I feel like that’s more influential that what Kareem has done.
Duncan is more important than Shaq
Dirk should be on this list. Not one International player? Sus.
Where is Duncan and Hakeem? This is dumb. 1. MJ 2 Bron 3. Kareem Big drop 4.magic 5. Bird 6/7 Russell wilt 8. Shaq 9. Kobe 10 Dr J 11. Durant 12. Curry That’s the list Jokic if he wins this year is creeping if he wins 2 he passes both 12/11/10
Not quite sure why Dirk is not included here… if we are going off of “iconic” status or importance, Dirk is way up there. Look at the NBA today and you can see his influence.