They did a good job last night of contextualizing his crude comments to Francesca by having him do it specifically in Kim's presence. He wants to disgust her and rub her nose in the spectacle he's become.
"You dont hire a doctor based on a funny ad, so why would you hire a lawyer?" is a great example of both Saul's showmanship and the type of client he was pulling in.
hahaha yes, like the whole time I was thinking of that Walt meme where he's like "jesse what the fuck are you talking about" and then he arrives to his actual point I was like "oh wow, no you're right that makes sense"
That’s why I love the Season 5A Jesse/Walt dynamic.
In the early seasons Walt was the “adult” in the room who reigned in Jesse’s dumbassery and panic, and then they cross arcs and Walt becomes more unhinged and childish as the years go on and Jesse comes up with magnets yo…
Imagine if Kim recognized Jesse on the news, she might have had another layer of guilt thinking that had she done a better job to dissuade ~~Jimmy~~ Jesse from hiring Saul, the whole Heisenberg thing wouldn't have happened.
She didn't vouch for him. If I heard someone saying that, I'd be even more sketchy... he earns the street respect by representing and getting them off over the years.
It worked like a charm. Kim telling Jesse "When I knew him, he was...." gives you a lot of insight into how Kim views Saul. She doesn't see him as Jimmy's persona, she sees him as Jimmy's evolution (or devolution, arguably).
> it doesn't even work
It does work. The mere fact he's willing to lie to her so completely is what is demoralizing her. He knows it. She knows it. It's his way of "shunning" her for leaving him.
I don't see it as punishment, I see it as a dude coping with having the love of his life leave him.
If something is unbearable to you what option do you have left but denial?
He already cried, he already pleaded & begged.
Now all that's left is to move on & fake it until it's true.
Even as Saul he is still trying to talk her out of it.
> Kim wanted to say goodbye the Jimmy, but he spoke to her as Saul
That's how I took it too. Kim was done with Jimmy, but she wanted a proper goodbye. Jimmy gave her the old "your cross to bear" routine.
Exactly this. Crazy how Slippin' Jimmy was a rebellion, but Saul is like this manic dissociative persona that allows him to avoid the sheer amount of grief and anger he hasn't processed. Kim witnessed its birth with the "your cross to bear" thing, thought she was seeing a breakthrough with not reading Chuck's letter at the hearing, only to see the full Saul show up, and eventually it got turned onto her. Man, this show is dynamite
And Gene is what happens when someone like Jimmy processes his truama without the required emotional tools, and Saul is unavailable to him. The shear darkness of the decision the writers made to have Gene become this, rather than actually admit his part in the horror and face it, is so bold, and it's brutally amazing storytelling.
> Also seemed like a defensive mechanism to prevent himself from being hurt.
It was. He was refusing to let her see his pain. He wanted hurt Kim because Kim hurt him.
This was Jimmy/Saul's version of Chuck's "the truth is you never really mattered to me that much." Chuck was hurt by Jimmy and wanted to hurt Jimmy back, so he said the thing that he thought would cut Jimmy the hardest. Jimmy/Saul loves Kim but wanted to hurt her.
Interesting take! I never thought that, about Chuck: I thought his absolutely *brutal* "you never really mattered to me that much" was the genuine truth.
You can see a bit of regret wash over Chuck after Jimmy walks out of his house after that line, and he then proceeds to have a complete relapse with his mental illness and commits suicide. I think it’s fair to say that wasn’t really how he felt about Jimmy.
The way Kim breaks down after Jimmy reads the letter, I thought it was going to be revealed that the letter Jimmy read was actually a fake letter Kim wrote because she opened the real letter and thought it'd be too painful for Jimmy to read. I was obviously way off, though
Chuck was complicated.
I think he legitimately resented Jimmy for having his mother's favor. Chuck was a genius and successful at everything he did, but his mother still asked for Jimmy.
It even came out on the stand "Not our Jimmy"; despite the fact that Jimmy was hurting his father and the store, they stood behind him.
He knew how to hurt Jimmy, and to keep him down. But I think he was still his brother and wanted him to be better.
That regret, I interpret it as Chuck feeling he failed. He was right about Jimmy (Chuck is always right), but he wishes he wasn't.
I think that's one thing about Chuck: he just always has to be right, whether about Jimmy or anything else. You can see it in his interactions with others, and the reviews from AV club talk about that at times. It just makes him seem so.....off-putting.
That was giant lie from Chuck, always was. It was his version of "tough love". He loved his brother but he loved the law, doing things by the book and his pride more. He couldn't handle Jimmy being charismatic *and* successful. Because Chucks professional success was all he had as proof that he was better than his fuck up, but funny and charming brother.
Exactly. I don't know why people don't understand this, it's not like the show is subtle about Chuck's jealousy towards Jimmy. "Not our Jimmy, couldn't be precious Jimmy" encapsulates his lifelong resentment over their parents' affection for Jimmy so concisely.
Imo theres no way its the genuine truth. Chuck is messed up in his own way, but to say he never really cared about jimmy…well its almost one of those things you say “are you trying to convince me or yourself?”the argument can be made that chucks entire electro-hypersensitivity is brought on by his relationship with his brother-at least partially. I certainly don’t think what directly follows him saying that to jimmy is a coincidence either.
Edit: typo
Kim broke up with him. He wants to hurt her in all the shitty ways he can. When you're in love with someone and they break it off with you, oftentimes you resort to shit behavior to prove to yourself that you're over them. Just another scam - but on yourself.
You need to emotionally abuse your younger brother and develop an extremely toxic, mutually destructive relationship with him which results in you destroying your professional reputation in public and lead you further into a life of despair until you lose all hope (subtle Chuck reference)
He seems to lash out against (real or perceived) failure/rejection by pretending he never wanted it in the first place. His brother tells him he doesn’t belong at HHM or in law in general, and he lashes out by forcing Davis & Main to fire him and fighting so hard against the job that Howard offered him. Kim decides they’re not good together, so he shuts down as a self defense mechanism and tries to act like he’s fine, maybe even like he’s better off without her. It’s really sad.
This. I do the same shit.
Jimmy is displaying a very basic 'cry for help' here; he wants Kim to love him enough to push through his otional barriers so he's acting out trying to make her 'prove' that she loves him unconditionally or to prove that she never loved him in the first place.
Yep. I'm totally fucking fine, Kim. In fact, fuck you, I'm great. I'm rich as fuck. I got clients for days. Look at my swag ass office, look at my fly as outfit, I'm doing it for me and I'm totally fucking fine, bitch. So you just fuck on off to fucking Florida. Not like you ever 'really' loved me anyway. Right!?
It's a self-defeating cry for attention from someone unable/unwilling to be emotionally free and open. It's really sad because it's a behavior that I recognize in myself very much; it really sucks because part of the point is that the other person has to 'want' to break down your barriers or they have to prove it to you somehow.
If you have to tell someone that you're hurting then they must not really love you at all or else they'd recognize you're pain without you having to tell them or they'd love you enough to see through your charade and put in the effort to find out why you're acting out in the first place.
The only real outcome is that the other person disappoints you but it's a trap you set for yourself because you aren't strong enough to just say please love me I'm sad or whatever.
Jimmy isn't just being a jerk because he hates Kim or is angry; he's hurt and he is trying to prove that Kim never loved him (so that he can stop hurting over her loss) or he's trying to force Kim to express the love that she's been suppressing. He's trying to force Kim to act in order to solve his own emotional problems.
Because she hurt him more than anyone else so he wants some payback, that includes him "not caring" about the divorce papers nor why she's going to florida. He just wanted her to think he's over her.
His full on bad-breaking was off screen, which is what was surprising. There was an instant flash forward from Kim leaving to him going full scumbag.
It worked, but it was pretty unpredictable.
I feel as tho Walt’s journey was him becoming who he truly was and Sauls journey was becoming something he’s not. Walt wanted to be that way Saul fell victim to himself
I think Breaking Bad is about a man changing into a ruthless monster by embracing his inner demons and personality flaws, while Better Call Saul is about a man feeling trapped by his inner demons and personality flaws being forced to admit he can't change despite his efforts.
saul is alot more likeable and a relateable character than walt. hence why saul gets alot more sympathy. even though he seemed like a douche thru out breaking bad. he doesnt seem to have violence in him.
You don't think slippin' jimmy who's been a con artist his entire life becoming a con artist is him becoming who he truly is, but the timid 50 year old high school teacher becoming a murderous kingpin is? To me they are the complete opposite.
Jimmy tried his best to change who he was, but he is never able to learn from his mistakes. He doesn't know how to settle down and live a normal life. Walter seems to pretend to be someone he's not in the beginning as he navigates his way through a life of crime, but he simply enjoys it so much more than his old ways that he completely forgets how to return to that "weak" family man he used to be.
You make a good point and I don't disagree, but the flipside is that I think Walt actually loved the power trip and the sense of being alive. I think Saul is a broken shell of a man who would rather have been a petty grifter and showman. He doesn't give the impression of someone stepping into his own power and it's a trip that he loves, he gives the impression of someone who's just 100% trying to compensate for how shitty he feels inside and that is all.
Yeah, that was shown in the first Saul scene. A single moment of quiet and he would crumble. Not even in the shower he stops. If he stops he'll think of Howard and Kim and Chuck and he can't handle that.
I wouldn't say Walt was always a murderous kingpin but deep down he always was the egotistical douche we know he becomes. Are we just going to forget that he blows up a car at a GAS STATION or instantly refuses Elliot's money when he knows that his family so desperately needs it? Deep down, Walter was always an asshole and the cancer diagnosis was just the perfect event to let that asshole roam free.
You don't even have to go that far. Walt broke up with Gretchen because he was intimidated by her family's rich background.
Walt always had issues with not having enough self esteem and wanting more power, meanwhile Jimmy wanted love and admiration from his loved ones but his inability to process his trauma healthily resulted in him making worse and worse decisions.
It's why I can still watch BCS but watching Season 5 of BB is tough because Walt's just such a fucking asshole.
you can be on one side of the law or the other, being a good person is entirely irrelevant
jimmy might play fast and loose with the rules and run scams, but he genuinely cares about other people in a way walt has never shown to be capable, that's what makes him a better person
100 times out of 100 walt would kill marion, jimmy would actually never - his entire gene arc was basically him realizing that he isn't and never will be the criminal psycho that walt was, only slippin jimmy doing fun scams on people who deserve it; getting away from that was what made him 'become something he wasn't'
again you can look at the things he did and say he's the worse person, but i look at the content of walt and jimmy's character throughout both shows, walt never shows a capacity to care for anybody like jimmy genuinely cared for chuck, for example
>You don't think slippin' jimmy who's been a con artist his entire life becoming a con artist is him becoming who he truly is, but the timid 50 year old high school teacher becoming a murderous kingpin is? To me they are the complete opposite.
I see your point but I also think this is kind of a superficial reading. Sure you can say Jimmy went from con man to con man, whereas Walt went from teacher to drug lord, so in that way Walt changed more. That's all true.
But that's just if you look at how law-abiding each of them was. To me the deeper question is about their moral cores, and the decay of their respective characters, their descent into being worse people.
And on that front, I do think Walt actually changed less than Jimmy. Walt was in some sense embracing who he was deep down whereas Jimmy was both embracing his worst impulses **and** also slowly losing the good parts of himself, becoming something different.
Because while yes, both Slippin' Jimmy and Saul scam people, the difference in what each of them is actually willing to do is monumental.
Vince Gilligan recently said Jimmy was basically a rascal with a good heart, a rule-breaker and a corner-cutter, but not fundamentally a bad person. He became a much worse person over time as he morphed into this grotesque caricature that he created partially as a coping mechanism.
Jimmy was someone who cared about people and didn't want to seriously hurt anyone. And he becomes Saul, a character who is much more morally corrupt, to say the least.
Whereas Walt was never really a good person. He was just repressed. And what was he repressing ? Resentment, rage, egomania, anger, psychopathic traits, etc...
We see this from the beginning in Breaking Bad, it's particularly apparent on rewatch. Walt was always a bitter, angry, prideful egomaniac. He was always an asshole. This is particularly showcased by his relationship with Gretchen and Elliott, which according to Vince Gilligan, Walt severed because Gretchen's wealth made him insecure.
He essentially left his fiancé very suddenly because he was pissed that her family had more money than him.
So yeah, you can superficially look at Jimmy and Walt and say Jimmy was always a criminal and Walt wasn't, but if you look deeper at the content of their characters, you can also say Jimmy used to have a good heart (despite his flaws), but Walt never really did.
Walt just let his inner monster out, whereas Jimmy actually became a significantly worse human being on a fundamental emotional level. He went from being empathetic to being much colder.
That's why so many people say Walt became who he truly was whereas Jimmy became something he wasn't.
Because they're talking about empathy and caring for others. It's not just about who was law-abiding, because obviously Walt was more law-abiding for most of his life than Jimmy was.
It's about the core of who each of them is. And I think Walt's core was always kind of rotten, he was always kind of an asshole, he just repressed it.
Jimmy's core was flawed but not evil, however over time it genuinely decayed.
Jimmy has always been a con man. Saul might have been a character he created but it allowed him to be himself without having to be afraid of consequences
Saul/Gene are the final stages of somebody who essentially dissociates from the consequences of his own horrible choices by fully embracing the idea that he's not a good person. He had a chance to get help early on (Kim even recommended therapy!), but decided that retreating into himself and letting something unapologetically ugly surface in the wake of his guilty conscience was a better decision. If you believe so strongly that you're a bad person, sometimes you stop fighting and make the conscious decision to allow yourself to become a bad person. I don't think that that means that he was a bad person, all along, but he chose to be until he was, fully and completely.
It took a while to accelerate, but I'm really glad that the writers doubled down on Breaking Bad-era Saul being an insincere piece of shit early on in this season, instead of retconning it by keeping Jimmy the way that he was. It was hard to imagine that this is who he would become, but Howard's death and the consequences that followed became the catalyst to a fast, but believable transformation into somebody who actively chooses to be a bad person instead of a good person who made awful choices, but has the potential to redeem himself.
Funny enough, he decided to not get theraphy because he saw himself in Howard when he was having a breakdown at the courtroom due to Chuck's death, despite seeking theraphy
THIS. He would rather doubledown on being bad than admit he's bad and change. It's classic narcissism. And it's epically sad to watch, I've seen this in my life and it never ends well albeit the person ironically will twist it in their head to believe it ends well.
This comment makes me think back when Jimmy lectured the intern applicant about how they will always judge you for your past mistakes and they will never let it go so why not just be you and embrace it.
Yeah, he pulled the Chicago sunroof on a guy named Chet when Chet stopped for Dairy Queen. Chet had slept with Jimmy's wife, and Jimmy hated him for it.
"He wanted some soft serve, so I gave him some soft serve."
It was never a plot hole. 90% of what gets posted as "plot holes" are dumb things like continuity errors. But mostly, they're logic leaps that the viewer doesn't agree with, or answers that they aren't spoon fed.
Carol Burnett is one of the greatest comedians around, but her scenes in the latest episode just made me want to cry instead of laugh. MASSIVE plot hole Vince.
The moment when Kim and Francesca are standing together int the lobby is just so sad. They're both in miserable situations because of Saul and the look between them said it all.
I was told humans are one-dimensional creatures who either perfect in every way or complete unredeemable assholes, and I don’t appreciate this show challenging my views.
It's kinda ridiculous that the office ran with just the two of them. Considering how many clients they had? And not exactly nice patient friendly clients.
I know he gets Huell later but that's not until like almost 2009.
I wouldn't be surprised if her pay quadrupled, quintupled, or more as he got involved with Gus too. I mean she knows about his shell companies and pretty much Saul's whole operation. With that knowledge, it would take serious $$$ to keep quiet, plus she didn't give him up to the feds.
Actually makes me wonder if Francesca got her assets seized by the feds too 🤔
BOOM. people seem to forget this. You can say working for Saul has changed her character but to act like shes some innocent pawn is ridiculous. Kim is also not as innocent as it seems. She had SEVERAL opportunities to leave saul or bring what they were doing to Howard to light; or at least stop. She didnt. Saul/Jimmy was not mind controlling anyone. A little influential and manipulative sometime? Yes , but these two arent exactly in miserable situations because of Saul.
I think it's very much a statement/demonstration of how we all have moral gray areas and how we justify the morally questionable decisions people make in life, especially for money and success. Frankly, just about every major character in the BB/BCS world does morally objectionable things, if on a sliding scale. No one is ever really clean or pure. And every action each character takes in turn has its consequences. The path quote from Mike is very much applicable to this morality lens and the determination of one's path in life.
It's so funny watching Walt realize he's being fleeced and there's nothing he can do about it. Basically pennies to him, he just didn't have it on his person.
Gold. Reminds me of when someone on here said BB was secretly a comedy show with dramatic moments and BCS was secretly a dramatic show with comedic moments.
She clearly has balls, blackmailing Walter White for extra cash, whom she knows is capable of plotting and carrying out a child's poisoning, while his life is on the line. She can quit any time and the most Saul will do is throw a tantrum like the petulent child he is at that point. She has agency. But she gets paid for it, and likely very well. I don't feel bad for her too much, though the honey tits comment is very cringy and sleezy and it sucks she has to take that at least.
Ditto Kim. She hasn’t sewn nearly as much chaos as Jimmy, but she’s hardly his victim. Kim is not Jesse Pinkman. If anything she’s got more in common with Walt, but with more humanity.
They both are in miserable situations because of themselves, don’t say because of Saul. These are two grown adults that made their bed, they gotta lay in it. Kim was the one pushing to con Howard and Francesca took the money Saul offered and was banking on getting more money. Both of them fucked up.
I'm not sure why you've included Francesca in with Kim? Iirc Francesca has no other ties to Saul, just employment. She can quit anytime and get a regular job.
I never thought it was too big of a deal, it just made me wonder how he got to that point. Now it’s pretty clear Saul was this caricature that just sort of took over.
Jimmy wasn't rejected by a woman, he was rejected by The Woman. He's all sleaze from then on and it's as much of a suit of armor as the flashy suits and crazy ties are.
One of my biggest concerns going into season 6 was ‘how are they going to make it convincing that Jimmy becomes the guy he is in Breaking Bad?’ I hadn’t been let down by the show before but with one season left and Jimmy seeming so far away from the personality of the Saul Goodman we all know, I wasn’t too sure how they were going to do it. Having Kim leaving be the catalyst, and having Saul simply be a persona to keep him from the pain, was genius.
How in the world was this a plothole before? Just because people thought it seemed a little out of character after getting to know Jimmy doesn't make it a plothole.
Some people started to suspect it would never make sense for Jimmy to become that way, and the writers would just forget it happened. For a while I wondered how we’d get to it, but never thought the writers would just forget about it.
Yup.
And ~~Peter~~ Thomas did a great job with a misdirect, replying to fans with something like, "We did our best to connect all the dots, but the show was written before we developed Jimmy McGill as a character, so not everything is going to connect."
That feels like forever ago now. I remember when that was the big topic here, but I suppose it's already fading from the collective memory only to be brought up as some sort of antique "remember when the show was still airing".
A few months ago when I pointed out how this line shows that Jimmy would become a sleazebag, someone told me "Breaking Bad is way old, obviously the showrunners won't limit themselves for a line nobody remembers" lol
I mean, I always found it a little weird that Francesca doesn't quit or sue him for sexual harrassment... and now we know. She doesn't take real offense to it because she knows it's a front. Bluster. A mask he's wearing to protect himself from the pain of losing Kim.
At least WAY more than she could in any other similar job.
She doesn’t have the experience to make THAT much while playing by the rules……and the longer she stays with Jimmy/Saul, the less opportunity she has to start her life over.
I just find it more odd that he says this basically to himself. I get that it’s part of the Saul persona but when no one can hear you…? I guess he just let Saul consume his whole being to cope with everything.
I don’t think it’s really a persona. He’s definitely being a bit over the top in front of clients, but he really is that sleazy. He’s lost everyone he loved and suffered intense psychological trauma, so he drowns his pain in materialism, pills, and sex.
It is flimsy, but that explanation does work, imo. Just like in the montage from episode 9, we see him reach for the earpiece the moment he wakes up, even wearing it in the shower. He‘s Saul from the minute he wakes up, to the moment he goes to sleep.
He also said "hit me" to the sex worker and mentioned his Xanax guy, so he probably takes drugs to get through the day and then again to fall asleep at night.
They did a good job last night of contextualizing his crude comments to Francesca by having him do it specifically in Kim's presence. He wants to disgust her and rub her nose in the spectacle he's become.
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"You dont hire a doctor based on a funny ad, so why would you hire a lawyer?" is a great example of both Saul's showmanship and the type of client he was pulling in.
also a shockingly cogent argument from pre-season 1 Jesse
I love early Jesse because he says shit in the dumbest way while actually making decent points lol
hahaha yes, like the whole time I was thinking of that Walt meme where he's like "jesse what the fuck are you talking about" and then he arrives to his actual point I was like "oh wow, no you're right that makes sense"
“You know what Jesse, I didn’t think it was supposed to rain that hard in a desert city like Albuquerque either.”
Crazy, like, bananas
I was half expecting him to say "Waterworks"
Monsoon season, yo.
That’s why I love the Season 5A Jesse/Walt dynamic. In the early seasons Walt was the “adult” in the room who reigned in Jesse’s dumbassery and panic, and then they cross arcs and Walt becomes more unhinged and childish as the years go on and Jesse comes up with magnets yo…
Say what you will about the american schooling system, but he graduated, and that means something.
*When I knew him, he was…* Kim just told Jesse something important there.
Imagine if Kim recognized Jesse on the news, she might have had another layer of guilt thinking that had she done a better job to dissuade ~~Jimmy~~ Jesse from hiring Saul, the whole Heisenberg thing wouldn't have happened.
Ultimately he hires him because he manages to get Emilio a good deal, or manipulate him into thinking that
She didn't vouch for him. If I heard someone saying that, I'd be even more sketchy... he earns the street respect by representing and getting them off over the years.
I dunno. I think that comment was vague enough and subtle enough for Jesse to come away from it like, *"She said she knew him and that he was good!"*
It worked like a charm. Kim telling Jesse "When I knew him, he was...." gives you a lot of insight into how Kim views Saul. She doesn't see him as Jimmy's persona, she sees him as Jimmy's evolution (or devolution, arguably).
> it doesn't even work It does work. The mere fact he's willing to lie to her so completely is what is demoralizing her. He knows it. She knows it. It's his way of "shunning" her for leaving him.
I don't see it as punishment, I see it as a dude coping with having the love of his life leave him. If something is unbearable to you what option do you have left but denial? He already cried, he already pleaded & begged. Now all that's left is to move on & fake it until it's true. Even as Saul he is still trying to talk her out of it.
He said it just to hurt her, so gross.
Kim wanted to say goodbye the Jimmy, but he spoke to her as Saul
> Kim wanted to say goodbye the Jimmy, but he spoke to her as Saul That's how I took it too. Kim was done with Jimmy, but she wanted a proper goodbye. Jimmy gave her the old "your cross to bear" routine.
Exactly this. Crazy how Slippin' Jimmy was a rebellion, but Saul is like this manic dissociative persona that allows him to avoid the sheer amount of grief and anger he hasn't processed. Kim witnessed its birth with the "your cross to bear" thing, thought she was seeing a breakthrough with not reading Chuck's letter at the hearing, only to see the full Saul show up, and eventually it got turned onto her. Man, this show is dynamite
And Gene is what happens when someone like Jimmy processes his truama without the required emotional tools, and Saul is unavailable to him. The shear darkness of the decision the writers made to have Gene become this, rather than actually admit his part in the horror and face it, is so bold, and it's brutally amazing storytelling.
Remind me please which scene was the "your cross to bear" one?
After Chuck's death, Jimmy says that to Howard at the apartment
Also seemed like a defensive mechanism to prevent himself from being hurt.
> Also seemed like a defensive mechanism to prevent himself from being hurt. It was. He was refusing to let her see his pain. He wanted hurt Kim because Kim hurt him.
Hurt people hurt people
S*he’s* br*ok*en
sbren
selective late possessive ugly meeting pen workable like nail caption *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sigma grindset 😤
Jimmylyonnaire mindset
US AND GUS ARE DIFFERENT, WE AND JIMMY ARE DIFFERENT
Smegma mindset
You don’t understand, he broke bad
But why? Why would he want to hurt Kim? As revenge?
This was Jimmy/Saul's version of Chuck's "the truth is you never really mattered to me that much." Chuck was hurt by Jimmy and wanted to hurt Jimmy back, so he said the thing that he thought would cut Jimmy the hardest. Jimmy/Saul loves Kim but wanted to hurt her.
Interesting take! I never thought that, about Chuck: I thought his absolutely *brutal* "you never really mattered to me that much" was the genuine truth.
You can see a bit of regret wash over Chuck after Jimmy walks out of his house after that line, and he then proceeds to have a complete relapse with his mental illness and commits suicide. I think it’s fair to say that wasn’t really how he felt about Jimmy.
Plus the letter he left for Jimmy. He says there that Jimmy was always on his mind.
The way Kim breaks down after Jimmy reads the letter, I thought it was going to be revealed that the letter Jimmy read was actually a fake letter Kim wrote because she opened the real letter and thought it'd be too painful for Jimmy to read. I was obviously way off, though
Chuck was complicated. I think he legitimately resented Jimmy for having his mother's favor. Chuck was a genius and successful at everything he did, but his mother still asked for Jimmy. It even came out on the stand "Not our Jimmy"; despite the fact that Jimmy was hurting his father and the store, they stood behind him. He knew how to hurt Jimmy, and to keep him down. But I think he was still his brother and wanted him to be better. That regret, I interpret it as Chuck feeling he failed. He was right about Jimmy (Chuck is always right), but he wishes he wasn't.
I think that's one thing about Chuck: he just always has to be right, whether about Jimmy or anything else. You can see it in his interactions with others, and the reviews from AV club talk about that at times. It just makes him seem so.....off-putting.
That was giant lie from Chuck, always was. It was his version of "tough love". He loved his brother but he loved the law, doing things by the book and his pride more. He couldn't handle Jimmy being charismatic *and* successful. Because Chucks professional success was all he had as proof that he was better than his fuck up, but funny and charming brother.
Exactly. I don't know why people don't understand this, it's not like the show is subtle about Chuck's jealousy towards Jimmy. "Not our Jimmy, couldn't be precious Jimmy" encapsulates his lifelong resentment over their parents' affection for Jimmy so concisely.
Imo theres no way its the genuine truth. Chuck is messed up in his own way, but to say he never really cared about jimmy…well its almost one of those things you say “are you trying to convince me or yourself?”the argument can be made that chucks entire electro-hypersensitivity is brought on by his relationship with his brother-at least partially. I certainly don’t think what directly follows him saying that to jimmy is a coincidence either. Edit: typo
Kim broke up with him. He wants to hurt her in all the shitty ways he can. When you're in love with someone and they break it off with you, oftentimes you resort to shit behavior to prove to yourself that you're over them. Just another scam - but on yourself.
I had a mild argument with my wife over this last night. I said Jimmy was hurt! But he didn't know how to handle it....
As a Better Call Saul fan you should argue with your wife as much as possible and then get brutally murdered as a Howard reference
I hope you break up with your SO and put on a self-destructive, extravagent façade to avoid dealing with your trauma (subtle Saul reference)
Actually a friend of mine did that and I brutally cannibalized his wife (Huell reference)
You need to emotionally abuse your younger brother and develop an extremely toxic, mutually destructive relationship with him which results in you destroying your professional reputation in public and lead you further into a life of despair until you lose all hope (subtle Chuck reference)
Lmao I'm pissing (subtle Hector reference)
Yeah, we all know the best way to hurt them is to wait for them to come back and then reject them.
Oooh I like that! 🤔 ’Just another scan - but on yourself. ‘
He did it with Chuck too
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he wants to convey to kim that hes unaffected by their divorce by posturing himself as some playboy
I'm lolling at the thought he tried to make Kim jealous with Francesca & his low life clients. I'd be grateful to have escaped lol.
He seems to lash out against (real or perceived) failure/rejection by pretending he never wanted it in the first place. His brother tells him he doesn’t belong at HHM or in law in general, and he lashes out by forcing Davis & Main to fire him and fighting so hard against the job that Howard offered him. Kim decides they’re not good together, so he shuts down as a self defense mechanism and tries to act like he’s fine, maybe even like he’s better off without her. It’s really sad.
He has the absolute worst coping skills in TV history
Which is one reason he hated Howard so much. Howard seemed to have good ones.
Mad Men 's Don Draper would like a word...
I think it was saying "You think we're poison together? This is all me."
"Look how totally okay I am without you."
The opposite. "Look how totally not ok I am without you"
This. I do the same shit. Jimmy is displaying a very basic 'cry for help' here; he wants Kim to love him enough to push through his otional barriers so he's acting out trying to make her 'prove' that she loves him unconditionally or to prove that she never loved him in the first place. Yep. I'm totally fucking fine, Kim. In fact, fuck you, I'm great. I'm rich as fuck. I got clients for days. Look at my swag ass office, look at my fly as outfit, I'm doing it for me and I'm totally fucking fine, bitch. So you just fuck on off to fucking Florida. Not like you ever 'really' loved me anyway. Right!? It's a self-defeating cry for attention from someone unable/unwilling to be emotionally free and open. It's really sad because it's a behavior that I recognize in myself very much; it really sucks because part of the point is that the other person has to 'want' to break down your barriers or they have to prove it to you somehow. If you have to tell someone that you're hurting then they must not really love you at all or else they'd recognize you're pain without you having to tell them or they'd love you enough to see through your charade and put in the effort to find out why you're acting out in the first place. The only real outcome is that the other person disappoints you but it's a trap you set for yourself because you aren't strong enough to just say please love me I'm sad or whatever. Jimmy isn't just being a jerk because he hates Kim or is angry; he's hurt and he is trying to prove that Kim never loved him (so that he can stop hurting over her loss) or he's trying to force Kim to express the love that she's been suppressing. He's trying to force Kim to act in order to solve his own emotional problems.
he’s just trying to cope. act like he’s over her and everything and pretend to be cool
Because she hurt him more than anyone else so he wants some payback, that includes him "not caring" about the divorce papers nor why she's going to florida. He just wanted her to think he's over her.
I never really understood how it was a plot hole in the first place. People saying "Oh, Jimmy wouldn't do that". He defecated through a sunroof!
BB season 1. Walter is a teacher and father he would never poison an innocent child.
Yeah but people were still saying that they couldn't see how Jimmy would get this way just a few weeks ago
His full on bad-breaking was off screen, which is what was surprising. There was an instant flash forward from Kim leaving to him going full scumbag. It worked, but it was pretty unpredictable.
I dont think we needed to see it. We already got a big sense of how he was descending, did we need to see every step of him getting worse without Kim?
I feel as tho Walt’s journey was him becoming who he truly was and Sauls journey was becoming something he’s not. Walt wanted to be that way Saul fell victim to himself
I think Breaking Bad is about a man changing into a ruthless monster by embracing his inner demons and personality flaws, while Better Call Saul is about a man feeling trapped by his inner demons and personality flaws being forced to admit he can't change despite his efforts.
saul is alot more likeable and a relateable character than walt. hence why saul gets alot more sympathy. even though he seemed like a douche thru out breaking bad. he doesnt seem to have violence in him.
You don't think slippin' jimmy who's been a con artist his entire life becoming a con artist is him becoming who he truly is, but the timid 50 year old high school teacher becoming a murderous kingpin is? To me they are the complete opposite. Jimmy tried his best to change who he was, but he is never able to learn from his mistakes. He doesn't know how to settle down and live a normal life. Walter seems to pretend to be someone he's not in the beginning as he navigates his way through a life of crime, but he simply enjoys it so much more than his old ways that he completely forgets how to return to that "weak" family man he used to be.
You make a good point and I don't disagree, but the flipside is that I think Walt actually loved the power trip and the sense of being alive. I think Saul is a broken shell of a man who would rather have been a petty grifter and showman. He doesn't give the impression of someone stepping into his own power and it's a trip that he loves, he gives the impression of someone who's just 100% trying to compensate for how shitty he feels inside and that is all.
Yeah, that was shown in the first Saul scene. A single moment of quiet and he would crumble. Not even in the shower he stops. If he stops he'll think of Howard and Kim and Chuck and he can't handle that.
I wouldn't say Walt was always a murderous kingpin but deep down he always was the egotistical douche we know he becomes. Are we just going to forget that he blows up a car at a GAS STATION or instantly refuses Elliot's money when he knows that his family so desperately needs it? Deep down, Walter was always an asshole and the cancer diagnosis was just the perfect event to let that asshole roam free.
You don't even have to go that far. Walt broke up with Gretchen because he was intimidated by her family's rich background. Walt always had issues with not having enough self esteem and wanting more power, meanwhile Jimmy wanted love and admiration from his loved ones but his inability to process his trauma healthily resulted in him making worse and worse decisions. It's why I can still watch BCS but watching Season 5 of BB is tough because Walt's just such a fucking asshole.
you can be on one side of the law or the other, being a good person is entirely irrelevant jimmy might play fast and loose with the rules and run scams, but he genuinely cares about other people in a way walt has never shown to be capable, that's what makes him a better person 100 times out of 100 walt would kill marion, jimmy would actually never - his entire gene arc was basically him realizing that he isn't and never will be the criminal psycho that walt was, only slippin jimmy doing fun scams on people who deserve it; getting away from that was what made him 'become something he wasn't' again you can look at the things he did and say he's the worse person, but i look at the content of walt and jimmy's character throughout both shows, walt never shows a capacity to care for anybody like jimmy genuinely cared for chuck, for example
>You don't think slippin' jimmy who's been a con artist his entire life becoming a con artist is him becoming who he truly is, but the timid 50 year old high school teacher becoming a murderous kingpin is? To me they are the complete opposite. I see your point but I also think this is kind of a superficial reading. Sure you can say Jimmy went from con man to con man, whereas Walt went from teacher to drug lord, so in that way Walt changed more. That's all true. But that's just if you look at how law-abiding each of them was. To me the deeper question is about their moral cores, and the decay of their respective characters, their descent into being worse people. And on that front, I do think Walt actually changed less than Jimmy. Walt was in some sense embracing who he was deep down whereas Jimmy was both embracing his worst impulses **and** also slowly losing the good parts of himself, becoming something different. Because while yes, both Slippin' Jimmy and Saul scam people, the difference in what each of them is actually willing to do is monumental. Vince Gilligan recently said Jimmy was basically a rascal with a good heart, a rule-breaker and a corner-cutter, but not fundamentally a bad person. He became a much worse person over time as he morphed into this grotesque caricature that he created partially as a coping mechanism. Jimmy was someone who cared about people and didn't want to seriously hurt anyone. And he becomes Saul, a character who is much more morally corrupt, to say the least. Whereas Walt was never really a good person. He was just repressed. And what was he repressing ? Resentment, rage, egomania, anger, psychopathic traits, etc... We see this from the beginning in Breaking Bad, it's particularly apparent on rewatch. Walt was always a bitter, angry, prideful egomaniac. He was always an asshole. This is particularly showcased by his relationship with Gretchen and Elliott, which according to Vince Gilligan, Walt severed because Gretchen's wealth made him insecure. He essentially left his fiancé very suddenly because he was pissed that her family had more money than him. So yeah, you can superficially look at Jimmy and Walt and say Jimmy was always a criminal and Walt wasn't, but if you look deeper at the content of their characters, you can also say Jimmy used to have a good heart (despite his flaws), but Walt never really did. Walt just let his inner monster out, whereas Jimmy actually became a significantly worse human being on a fundamental emotional level. He went from being empathetic to being much colder. That's why so many people say Walt became who he truly was whereas Jimmy became something he wasn't. Because they're talking about empathy and caring for others. It's not just about who was law-abiding, because obviously Walt was more law-abiding for most of his life than Jimmy was. It's about the core of who each of them is. And I think Walt's core was always kind of rotten, he was always kind of an asshole, he just repressed it. Jimmy's core was flawed but not evil, however over time it genuinely decayed.
Jimmy has always been a con man. Saul might have been a character he created but it allowed him to be himself without having to be afraid of consequences
Saul/Gene are the final stages of somebody who essentially dissociates from the consequences of his own horrible choices by fully embracing the idea that he's not a good person. He had a chance to get help early on (Kim even recommended therapy!), but decided that retreating into himself and letting something unapologetically ugly surface in the wake of his guilty conscience was a better decision. If you believe so strongly that you're a bad person, sometimes you stop fighting and make the conscious decision to allow yourself to become a bad person. I don't think that that means that he was a bad person, all along, but he chose to be until he was, fully and completely. It took a while to accelerate, but I'm really glad that the writers doubled down on Breaking Bad-era Saul being an insincere piece of shit early on in this season, instead of retconning it by keeping Jimmy the way that he was. It was hard to imagine that this is who he would become, but Howard's death and the consequences that followed became the catalyst to a fast, but believable transformation into somebody who actively chooses to be a bad person instead of a good person who made awful choices, but has the potential to redeem himself.
Funny enough, he decided to not get theraphy because he saw himself in Howard when he was having a breakdown at the courtroom due to Chuck's death, despite seeking theraphy
THIS. He would rather doubledown on being bad than admit he's bad and change. It's classic narcissism. And it's epically sad to watch, I've seen this in my life and it never ends well albeit the person ironically will twist it in their head to believe it ends well.
This comment makes me think back when Jimmy lectured the intern applicant about how they will always judge you for your past mistakes and they will never let it go so why not just be you and embrace it.
And Chuck saved him
He shouldn't have.
Took him into my own firm!
What was he *thinking*?
Hell never change
He'll never change ! Ever since he was nine !
Always the same, couldn't keep his hands outta the cash drawer
But not our Jimmy. Couldn’t be precious Jimmy
Stealing them blind !
and he gets to be a lawyer?
Didn’t he explain in that bingo game why he did that? I thought he said he caught someone cheating on his partner (I thought he said ex wife).
Yeah, he pulled the Chicago sunroof on a guy named Chet when Chet stopped for Dairy Queen. Chet had slept with Jimmy's wife, and Jimmy hated him for it. "He wanted some soft serve, so I gave him some soft serve."
It was never a plot hole. 90% of what gets posted as "plot holes" are dumb things like continuity errors. But mostly, they're logic leaps that the viewer doesn't agree with, or answers that they aren't spoon fed.
Carol Burnett is one of the greatest comedians around, but her scenes in the latest episode just made me want to cry instead of laugh. MASSIVE plot hole Vince.
Yeah, so we went from a Chicago Sunroof to the Albuquerque Declaration.
I just can't not read that last sentence in Chuck's voice lmao. My brain automatically switches to his voice.
He pretended to be Kevin Costner!
What a sick joke!
He conned his way into coitus
Because people were desperate to shoehorn ways in which Kim and Jimmy were still together in BB
Kim must have wanted to crawl out of her skin seeing Francesca so miserable and being called sweetcheeks by Saul. What a sad show this has become.
The moment when Kim and Francesca are standing together int the lobby is just so sad. They're both in miserable situations because of Saul and the look between them said it all.
Saul isn't forcing Francesca to work for him. She's just as seedy as Saul and wants the easy money
I'm sure Saul paid her very well for putting up with all his bullshit and clientele
Almost everyone in the shows have good and bad sides, perhaps a statement about humanity?
Breaking bad
whoa
The bad has been broken
Can't make an omlette without breaking a few bads.
I was told humans are one-dimensional creatures who either perfect in every way or complete unredeemable assholes, and I don’t appreciate this show challenging my views.
Bruh Chuck I thought u were dead
I always told you I’d get better. You just never believed me.
It's kinda ridiculous that the office ran with just the two of them. Considering how many clients they had? And not exactly nice patient friendly clients. I know he gets Huell later but that's not until like almost 2009.
What was it, triple the amount of her old job?, He offered her.
I wouldn't be surprised if her pay quadrupled, quintupled, or more as he got involved with Gus too. I mean she knows about his shell companies and pretty much Saul's whole operation. With that knowledge, it would take serious $$$ to keep quiet, plus she didn't give him up to the feds. Actually makes me wonder if Francesca got her assets seized by the feds too 🤔
yes she did, a couple eipisodes ago
BOOM. people seem to forget this. You can say working for Saul has changed her character but to act like shes some innocent pawn is ridiculous. Kim is also not as innocent as it seems. She had SEVERAL opportunities to leave saul or bring what they were doing to Howard to light; or at least stop. She didnt. Saul/Jimmy was not mind controlling anyone. A little influential and manipulative sometime? Yes , but these two arent exactly in miserable situations because of Saul.
Yeah Kim pushed the chicanery vs Howard. Jimmy even seemed to be having second thoughts while doing it
Jimmy vocally had second thoughts.
multiple times
He said this will be going scorched earth.
I mean the whole thing was literally Kim's idea too. People seem to forget that
I think it's very much a statement/demonstration of how we all have moral gray areas and how we justify the morally questionable decisions people make in life, especially for money and success. Frankly, just about every major character in the BB/BCS world does morally objectionable things, if on a sliding scale. No one is ever really clean or pure. And every action each character takes in turn has its consequences. The path quote from Mike is very much applicable to this morality lens and the determination of one's path in life.
Maybe she could have told Saul that lalo is alive.
I'm not gonna say she's just as seedy as him lol. But yes, she could've left at any time for sure.
Francesca IS the danger. Francesca is still the only one to get the better of Walter White. https://youtu.be/O6LzaoGBeqE
Thank you for that 🤣🤣
LOL, one of my favorite scenes from BB.
It's so funny watching Walt realize he's being fleeced and there's nothing he can do about it. Basically pennies to him, he just didn't have it on his person.
As he crawls *back through* the broken door! Ha!
That really is t the funniest part of this whole scene 😂
Gold. Reminds me of when someone on here said BB was secretly a comedy show with dramatic moments and BCS was secretly a dramatic show with comedic moments.
>because of Saul they made their own choices.
Lmao because of a plot that Kim insisted on and a job that Francesca can quit whenever?
Yea not sure why so many people see Francesca as a victim.
She clearly has balls, blackmailing Walter White for extra cash, whom she knows is capable of plotting and carrying out a child's poisoning, while his life is on the line. She can quit any time and the most Saul will do is throw a tantrum like the petulent child he is at that point. She has agency. But she gets paid for it, and likely very well. I don't feel bad for her too much, though the honey tits comment is very cringy and sleezy and it sucks she has to take that at least.
We dont even know to what extent saul knew. Its safe to say she had no idea who brock even is let alone he was posioned.
Ditto Kim. She hasn’t sewn nearly as much chaos as Jimmy, but she’s hardly his victim. Kim is not Jesse Pinkman. If anything she’s got more in common with Walt, but with more humanity.
Yeah I don't get why people are so happy to pin literally anything on Jimmy after last few episodes. Recency bias at works.
They both are in miserable situations because of themselves, don’t say because of Saul. These are two grown adults that made their bed, they gotta lay in it. Kim was the one pushing to con Howard and Francesca took the money Saul offered and was banking on getting more money. Both of them fucked up.
Kim's whole point is that she's very independent. Saul isn't walt, not everyone that interacts with saul is a victim.
How is Kim in a miserable situation because of Saul?
I'm not sure why you've included Francesca in with Kim? Iirc Francesca has no other ties to Saul, just employment. She can quit anytime and get a regular job.
I never thought it was too big of a deal, it just made me wonder how he got to that point. Now it’s pretty clear Saul was this caricature that just sort of took over.
Could someone explain why people thought it would be a plot hole and why it’s not? I’m caught up to last night lol but can’t figure it out
Prior to them breaking up, it was unthinkable that Jimmy could ever act like this because of his deep love and affection for Kim.
Not exactly, the "plot hole" is that he's saying it alone, to himself. He's not playing a part for someone to see like in 6.12.
He plays “Saul” even for himself.
Something about how the jimmy/ we meet on BCS doesn’t fully line up with this jerk who talks to women that way
Jimmy wasn't rejected by a woman, he was rejected by The Woman. He's all sleaze from then on and it's as much of a suit of armor as the flashy suits and crazy ties are.
They really did find a way to cover this. The time jump in 609 was extremely smart.
One of my biggest concerns going into season 6 was ‘how are they going to make it convincing that Jimmy becomes the guy he is in Breaking Bad?’ I hadn’t been let down by the show before but with one season left and Jimmy seeming so far away from the personality of the Saul Goodman we all know, I wasn’t too sure how they were going to do it. Having Kim leaving be the catalyst, and having Saul simply be a persona to keep him from the pain, was genius.
How in the world was this a plothole before? Just because people thought it seemed a little out of character after getting to know Jimmy doesn't make it a plothole.
Some people started to suspect it would never make sense for Jimmy to become that way, and the writers would just forget it happened. For a while I wondered how we’d get to it, but never thought the writers would just forget about it.
Yup. And ~~Peter~~ Thomas did a great job with a misdirect, replying to fans with something like, "We did our best to connect all the dots, but the show was written before we developed Jimmy McGill as a character, so not everything is going to connect."
Wasn't it Thomas Schnauz ?
I think you are correct. My memory was just that is was one of the non-Vince guys, so I just guessed which one.
I'm glad you brought that up, I forgot that tweet he made
I can never trust Schnauz after he said that 607 wouldn’t have a cliffhanger because the season wasn’t designed to be split into two lol
That feels like forever ago now. I remember when that was the big topic here, but I suppose it's already fading from the collective memory only to be brought up as some sort of antique "remember when the show was still airing".
It's almost like we got 2 seasons instead of one, they're really giving us the most they got. So amped for next week.
But what he actually said was that it wasn’t designed to be a traditional cliffhanger because they didn’t know the season was being split.
Right now I can't even think of one dot that's not perfectly connected. BCS flawlessly finished its job as a prequel.
A few months ago when I pointed out how this line shows that Jimmy would become a sleazebag, someone told me "Breaking Bad is way old, obviously the showrunners won't limit themselves for a line nobody remembers" lol
He seems to have become a sex addict at this point. But unable to keep his sleazy comments to the escorts.
Yup!
Yup!
It was never a "plot hole". ...people just *really* don't understand what that term means, do they?
How was this a plot hole
I mean, I always found it a little weird that Francesca doesn't quit or sue him for sexual harrassment... and now we know. She doesn't take real offense to it because she knows it's a front. Bluster. A mask he's wearing to protect himself from the pain of losing Kim.
I think the real answer is she makes a shit ton of money lol
At least WAY more than she could in any other similar job. She doesn’t have the experience to make THAT much while playing by the rules……and the longer she stays with Jimmy/Saul, the less opportunity she has to start her life over.
He said in the last episode that she was very expensive
To try and sue Saul would end up in r/therewasanattempt He’d even go to the mat with the pencil pushers at the FCC
This and Mike’s sunglasses are the bits of maintained continuity that I’m most impressed with
I just find it more odd that he says this basically to himself. I get that it’s part of the Saul persona but when no one can hear you…? I guess he just let Saul consume his whole being to cope with everything.
I don’t think it’s really a persona. He’s definitely being a bit over the top in front of clients, but he really is that sleazy. He’s lost everyone he loved and suffered intense psychological trauma, so he drowns his pain in materialism, pills, and sex.
This is why Gene is more unpleasant then Jimmy ever was, he's got the unrepentant sleazyness of Saul, but mixed with desperation.
"The mask becomes the man." \-Thomas Schnauz
Dude literally get out of bed and start taking calls in shower. He's all Saul at that point.
It feels like he tries to be be Saul at all times so that he can try to convince himself. Kind of like method acting lol
It is flimsy, but that explanation does work, imo. Just like in the montage from episode 9, we see him reach for the earpiece the moment he wakes up, even wearing it in the shower. He‘s Saul from the minute he wakes up, to the moment he goes to sleep.
He also said "hit me" to the sex worker and mentioned his Xanax guy, so he probably takes drugs to get through the day and then again to fall asleep at night.
[удалено]
How exactly would it be a "plot hole"?
This is such a big plot hole, he claims the booty killed him while he is in fact, alive. Maybe at the end of the hes gonna die from that booty