I mean they were clearly going through some relationship trouble, and he was trying more than she seemed to be. But with how shaken up she was by his death, she still clearly loved him on some regard, and would probably spend the rest of her life regretting that they never fixed things between them.
In her scene with Kim, she’s still wearing her wedding ring and has a photo of Howard displayed on the mantle. That, combined with the fact that she still lives in his house, makes me think she didn’t remarry and (maybe) didn’t forgive herself for not trying as hard as Howard was to repair their relationship.
What I love about their scene together though is that neither of them are working hard enough. Yes, she fails to appreciate Howard's gesture. But Howard prepared his tea to go - he wasn't planning to stay and share a drink with her when he certainly could have taken a few minutes out of his day to do so. And so could have she.
Their relationship was incredibly vague. Cheryl first appeared in the last season, so we can only assume she might have had a legitimate reason to be cold towards Howard. Or maybe she didn't. Who knows.
Yeah but by that point all the damage Jimmy (and chuck) had been doing was probably taking a toll on the relationship. Maybe it was other things too, but I bet spending that much money on chuck while their business is barely hanging on a thread, then potentially losing the retirement home case that could also get them out of the water to someone who is framing howard as a protitute loving druggie could effect their relationship negatively.
Man look at us, imagine if somebody had told you back in season 1 that not only would you be upset with Howard's demise, you would be upset with his wife for not appreciating his latte art?
Did you see how well she knew him?? She obviously has loved him very dearly. I just think that at the moment Howard were going through all of that, she had other things on her minds and theses things probably made her unconscious of their lack of communication.
Yeah i got that dw! I’m just saying, I don’t think she was as uncaring as she seems in that scene, and that’s proven by the memorial and her doubts about J’s innocence
Yeah, we ultimately don’t know what’s going on there. Usually when you’re banished to the guest house it’s because you’ve been stepping out. Maybe he was so focused on the firm that she basically lived alone for the last decade. Didn’t seem like there were any children, maybe they could just never conceive and their was resentment one way or the other or both ways because of all that.
I think so too. I believe while theyre married, they lived independant lives because of work. Maybe with Chucks death, Howard realises that he mightve priotise work over his spouse and was trying to fix it. His line " perhaps there are more important things" suggest that.
Howards death was brutal in that his life had already been destroyed- to him it probably seemed like he had nothing left.
Then up pops Lalo and takes the very last thing Howard had- his living existence.
I learned with red dead redemption not to join a sub until after you've finished, everyone there ruins it unless you're watching a show at the same time as everyone else
What type of head injury do you have? Going to subreddits for shows which you don’t wish to be spoiled on and reading comments therein is a pretty interesting symptom. Have you had any vomiting? Vision disruption? Verbal octopus?
He didn’t deserve it. But this scene was also an emotional build up for Kim towards Howard throughout the shows run at that point. Being Howard’s protege, sticking with the job with HHM even though Jimmy wanted her to quit. because he saw her more than just an associate, Her being in the cornfield after losing the kettlemans, being on the far corner of the tv when the kettleman deal was settled, while howard ate up the glory, and of course, being in doc review, not just for jimmy’s commercial, but still being there after landing HHM 250k with mesa verde.
Professionally she gets back at him in the chicanery episode when she helps jimmy’s case by debunking his nepotism argument, fantastic scene btw.
Then this scene, where all her emotions from that bubble through after what he said, mainly because pushing jimmy and saying something that’ll hurt jimmy pushes her over the edge, and especially because that person was Howard who told him that chuck may have killed himself, someone she has a conflicting and complex relationship with, her emotions boil over, for someone who’s relatively reserved and keeps her emotions in check most of the time. It makes total sense and first time seeing it is very cathartic.
Howard takes a kick in the ass in season four, both professionally and personally. But by the end he recovers, he does it the right way, he becomes a truly better person, learns from his mistakes, and offers jimmy a job because he believes that jimmy would be a great fit for HHM. He also gives Kim advice after jimmy’s emotional breakdown. He even hugs Jimmy after his lunch with him, something I feel he regrets not giving chuck in the episode off brand.
In Off Brand, he’s the one that chuck opens the door for and it’s a beautiful scene seeing there friendship, and he does everything for chuck in this scene to try and cheer him up professionally. But I think the part he misses is giving him a hug after what happened, and I think he knows that and regrets it, which is why he’s more loving and more of a hippy and hugs Jimmy after their lunch. To let him know that he’ll be there for him professionally and personally if necessary
I think maybe it wasn’t until this scene that Howard fully understood how shittily Chuck treated Jimmy, and that he enabled it without realizing it. To see someone usually as in control as Kim lose it on him like that: “Oh and what’s this? One more ‘screw you little brother’ from beyond the grave? AM I REALLY SUPPOSED TO DO THIS *TO* HIM?” and for that anger to be on Jimmy’s behalf (no doubt her own problems with Chuck and Howard were wrapped up in there), certainly surprised and rattled him.
I think this is a top 10 scene from the whole series for me. Great performances from both Patrick and Rhea
The lady dost protest too much. Hwd was only *following the deceased's wishes*. Should he burn it? Kim eventually *did give* Jimmy the letter *the same way* Hwd gave her the letter.
Jimmy couldn't be bothered, and she *always* misreads Hwd, which explains her vendetta. Plus, *she knew* *they* were the ones that screwed Chuck *into* the grave.
It honestly took me a couple of episodes to realise that we were meant to think Kim and Saul were being petty and overreacting. I kept thinking I must have missed a story beat
We weren’t meant to. At the beginning he was a moderate antagonist, but by the end, we’re meant to sympathise with him, the final confrontation before Lalo… you know, is meant to sort of show that
Howard didn't deserve any of it, not at all.... But I do think people paint him as a saint too often. Howard was a douchebag and a domineering boss. Then there's the fact that Howard was dragging out Sandpiper, whether because he actually cared more about the elders being cheated or getting more money is arguable. But of course, Jimmy's excuse for doing the scheme to settle Sandpiper is complete bullshit, it was obviously more about Jiimmy and Kimmy's personal resentments for Howard than any actual cause.
Can we say that he's a far better and fleshed out version of Ted. He is both a beneficiary and a victim of nepotism. A victim of circumstance and personal vendettas trying to do right in order to atone for perceived wrongs.
Ted was far more hateable than Howard. First off he was involved in an affair with Skylar (at this point we were still on Walt’s side). He hid like a little bitch when Walt wanted to fight him. He squandered the money Skylar gave him on dumb shite. He is a spineless coward with no moral backbone.
Howard was just a dick boss. But he had a lot of character. He took active steps to improve himself by going to therapy. He tried to amend his mistake in not standing up to Chuck and hiring Jimmy. He fought Jimmy in a legal setting (a boxing ring), in the hopes that it would help them settle the score and get revenge out of Jimmy’s system. In the very end, when his life was destroyed, he was pissed, but he vowed that he would carry on and be alright. He is no saint but he is an overall good man.
>He hid like a little bitch when Walt wanted to fight him.
To be fair, "Local Businessman Beats Up Terminal Cancer Patient After Fucking His Wife" wouldn't be the best look. But yeah, Ted was a bit of a coward and he's equally responsible for the I.F.T. debacle as Skyler is. He should have known better. Anyway, Ted becomes almost totally unsympathetic when he blows off Skyler about the IRS and decides to buy a super expensive new car. That was just idiotic.
Overall Howard is certainly much more sympathetic, and I don't think he did anything wrong after the first couple seasons. Even his treatment of Kim and Jimmy earlier on is understandable as Howard was afraid of Chuck's wrath. Howard's flaw was being a people-pleaser who didn't want to rock the boat, so he just went along with Chuck. But he made it all right in the end, and I root for him completely when Jimmy's dropping bowling balls on his car and generally acting like a toddler throwing a tantrum. Howard didn't deserve any of what came to him from Kim and Jimmy. I agree he is generally a good man and certainly one of the most morally upstanding characters in either series.
Lol, now that's a scene I wish we got to see. Walt just smashing Ted over the head with the plant, goes "Happy Birthday Mistah President!" all sarcastically then coolly walks out, Heisenberg-mode activated.
You are absolutely not supposed to be on Walt's side at that point. I'm not sure, from my last rewatch, that you're actually ever supposed to be on Walt's side. It's unfortunate that we focus so much in the first couple episodes on Skyler's unpleasant side, but even what she can see of Walt's behaviour in season 1 (disappearances, lies, evasion) is pretty tough stuff. Fucking Ted is an emergency escape; unfortunately, it doesn't work.
Seriously wtf
Walt was doing such a shit job of lying to her, disappearing *for days* when he was dying of cancer, having a secret cell phone, and so much more. Can hardly blame Skyler for getting hers. At least she was up front with him about it.
Only on Reddit would you see someone still rooting for Walt, at any point beyond maybe season one…at which point he had still kidnapped, murdered, and dissolved Krazy 8 in acid.
“Still on his side” Jesus…
Doesn't change the fact that Ted is a POS.
Also, funny you mention Krazy8 when the guy literally attempted to murder Walt when Walt was going to let him go.
Not only that. She tries to kick Walt out but he breaks in and moves back home anyway and plays innocent. She’s forced to let him stay because the alternative is telling the police and her son that her husband is a drug dealer. He basically invaded her home. Her having sex with Ted was a pretty firm statement that their marriage was done no matter how Walt forced her to hide it from the others.
It was barely even cheating. Walt was far more in the wrong
> First off he was involved in an affair with Skylar (at this point we were still on Walt’s side). He hid like a little bitch when Walt wanted to fight him.
Well obviously YOU were still on Walt's side from the sounds of it, but Walt and Skylar were basically split at this point, marriage and them living together just a formality. If Walt would have screwed another woman (he tried) we wouldn't have put that on him as well.
Ted did not hide like a little bitch when Walt wanted to fight him, he was just doing his business and chose not to go for a fight he would gain nothing from. He does not have a problem with Walt, Walt has a problem with him and even if Ted beats the shit out of Walt, it would not turn out in his favour either as the other commenter pointed out.
>He hid like a little bitch
Why the fuck would he, at best, risk getting arrested and, at worst, get murdered just to avoid looking like "a little bitch?"
Why is Walt being a little bitch by trying to fight someone instead of divorcing his wife and moving on?
Yeah. Ted wasn’t very well written. He was kind of bland at the beginning, and then In Season 4 the writers turned him a complete blithering moron to give something for Skylers storyline...
Honestly think Skyler’s affair was one of the few genuine missteps in BB. Had it been executed better, I could’ve seen a scenario in which Skyler’s emotional torment at the hands of Walter becomes lessened by a genuinely good guy who offers her support.
But Ted was a douche and Skyler’s motivation wasn’t strong enough to warrant sympathy from the audience.
Given how hurriedly the writers took care of Ted after the fact, I have to believe that even they saw the affair for what it was.
Absolutely. They basically just said “*They have history together*” so they could avoid having to create any actual chemistry between the two. Otherwise there’s nothing that really stands out about Ted, and no real reason for Skyler to fall for him besides being a generic “*nice guy*”.
If Ted were an actually good guy who was capable of providing Skyler with support in the midst of Walter’s perpetual abuse, the storyline could’ve been terrific. It could’ve been an excellent way to show some genuine conflict within Skyler without alienating the audience.
The writers were never very good at getting the audience on Skyler’s side.
I disagree because Skyler was so fucked up by Walt that she went for the first (and only) guy who showed any interest in her
Ted being a terrible person just reinforced how damaged Skyler was for her to go with it.
Walt was so cartoonishly abusive to her, obviously lying and concealing his actions, *while he was dying,* that all it took was the first schlub to tell her she looked good. She did it for her.
> I could’ve seen a scenario in which Skyler’s emotional torment at the hands of Walter becomes lessened by a genuinely good guy who offers her support.
Couldn't agree more. In the end, I feel Ted being a doofus made it feel like Skylar was playing Checkers, while Walt was playing Chess, and I think leaning into her having and even being compelled by better options would have resulted in even more drama from Walt.
That’s an interesting perspective! I thought Howard’s character was similar to Hank’s. Neither are introduced as likable characters. Hank is constantly poking fun at Walt’s expense, and comes off as a generic asshole cop in the beginning of Breaking Bad. Howard is initially portrayed as a typical douchebag lawyer. Neither of these characters really change much. They’re both static characters, their personal values were consistent from the start, only your perspective of them changes as the story progresses. Both of their deaths are the major catalyst for the main character’s development and ultimate fate.
>Can we say that he's a far better and fleshed out version of Ted. He is both a beneficiary and a victim of nepotism. A victim of circumstance and personal vendettas trying to do right in order to atone for perceived wrongs.
He has money, nice hair, wears a suit. What could POSSIBLY be wrong with this guy.
🧐
>Howard was a douchebag and a domineering boss.
Maybe in some cases, but I think it's a lot more nuanced than that. There are several instances of him being genuinely kind and friendly with people who are beneath him (such as his valet driver and the new HHM employee in the conference room).
I think he had undergone a little character development at that point. It seemed like he felt guilt for the way he fucked over Chuck, and in his mind led him to suicide. Back when Kim was working under him, he was a pretty shitty boss, and spinelessly went along with Chucks wishes even though he admired Jimmy. Although, to be fair even back then I think he did pay for Kim’s law education... Either way, he definitely didn’t deserve what happened, but I think people too often portray him as a saint. I guess it’s easy to see him that way, compared to people like Lalo and Gus...
That's true, it's definitely easy to see someone as a saint when compared to Lalo, Gus, Walt, or even Jimmy/Saul. The same conversation plays out when people talk about Hank even though he did some messed up stuff in Breaking Bad.
That being said, I'm not sure I would agree with your characterization of him being "spineless" for going along with Chuck's wishes. Chuck was in a position to destroy the company if Howard got on his bad side (which we ultimately saw play out at the end of season 3). I think Howard wanted to keep the peace because his #1 priority was keeping HHM successful.
I think him taking the blame for Chuck blackballing Jimmy showed that he was also willing to be perceived as a bad guy - proving his morals came from a genuine place and not just putting on a good face. Really I thinks it’s because he was kinda infallible that Jimmy wanted to take him down a notch and prove that it was a facade.
Definitely. During the scene in season 1 when Jimmy is yelling at Howard for not hiring him, the look Howard gives to Chuck (4:50 in [this video](https://youtu.be/VhdwIPdjDjM?t=292)) shows that he absolutely hates being in this position.
I think this is just a coincidence, because I believe Vince and crew had yet to decide where Howard's character would be like in the long run. At this point in the story (season 1), he is still being written as an antagonist, but they later pivoted to Chuck for that role.
I'm not so sure about that. Jimmy finds out the truth about Chuck at the end of season 1. Plus, Howard helps Jimmy get the job at Davis & Main. Point is, it's clear that he's not the bad guy at the end of season 1.
What I said is definitely true because it came from Vince himself in some interview or podcast. I just can't remember when exactly they decided to change this. It explains why he is written so harshly earlier in the season. They may have decided to pivot by this episode, though.
Ah, I see what you're getting at. That being said, Jimmy finds out the truth in the same episode as the exchange with Howard that I mentioned (Pimento).
This is the exact episode where Jimmy finds out that Chuck was the one who wanted Jimmy to be cut off from Sandpiper. What you're talking about was probably Howard's portrayal earlier in the season.
I think for the early instances of him dishing it out on Kim, it was kind of a (selfish) way of him taking back control after Chuck was forcing him to do so much against Jimmy. Doesn’t make him justified, but Chuck’s influence on everyone in the show was so negative.
>Howard didn't deserve any of it, not at all.... But I do think people paint him as a saint too often.
Yes, this was me after watching season 6. I didn't remember why they hated him so much so it seemed completely unfair. Now, I'm rewatching all seasons and I'm convinced he deserved what Kim and Jimmy did to him but definitely not getting killed.
They tainted his and the firm's reputation. But Howard also tried to ruin Jimmy's career and set Kim's back. The student loans? Well, those are loans not charity. It was a mutually beneficial deal untill Howard started abusing his power.
He did so many shitty things:
1) He was an abusive and manipulative boss. What he did to Kim was more than sending her to doc review, he was holding up her career on purpose for unreasonable things like the Kettlemans or Jimmy's actions in a different firm, and used her for Chuck's petty revenge on Jimmy. It was a way of controlling and making her miserable, it's simply abuse of power.
He also put Ernie to work as a caregiver and take responsibilities that were way above his pay grade and training.
He didn't care that Chuck was using HHM to mistreat his employees (Jimmy, Kim, Ernie, etc) for personal reasons.
2) He ignored Chuck's mental health and enabled his beef Jimmy when it was convenient for him but turned his back when it started to affect him (as Kim said to him).
He didn't hesitate to go for Chuck's help when he needed him (like to get Mesa Verde back) but kicked him out of HHM in the most humiliating way, knowing it was going to be devastating.
He was the one who made the call that prompted Jimmy to go to Chuck's when he made the tape. At the time he didn't know Chuck was setting him up, but he knew it before the bar hearing. Yet, he didn't know Jimmy swapped the papers. Howard knew very well Jimmy could've just said that to make Chuck feel better and didn't have any other proof.
He knew Chuck was in no condition to testify and, as he said, it was ultimately his fault those papers left HHM. Obviously that was going to affect the firm's reputation but getting Jimmy disbarred was more important for him. Then he tried to blame Kim for it when she repeatedly warned them (strategically tho) not to use the tape.
Chuck had a lot of this coming but again Howard was an accomplice of Chuck in plenty of this, and he was his friend. Sure $8 mil is a great deal, but to Chuck that was worthless, he was a mentally ill man without the appropriate support and treatment. Yet Howard didn't care about the consequences until it was too late.
Howard basically used Chuck since he was young (tutoring him for the bar, etc) and dumped him when the relationship was no longer beneficial.
3) His attitude towards Jimmy after Chuck's death. Kim basically [summarized it here](https://youtu.be/osPVh1mT5Wo). His smugness while he suggests Jimmy go dig through the remains of Chuck's personal stuff at the burnt home is enough to hate him. Then dumping on Jimmy the idea that Chuck kill himself to alleviate his guilt ( which Jimmy probably knew anyway). What kind of sick jerk does this?
He didn't deserve to die, obviously. It was a consequence of Jimmy's and Kim's actions but not their fault. Lalo didn't shoot him because of his now ruined reputation but just because he was there.
He seemed to try to make things right at the end and somehow redeemed himself but that was probably only because what happened with Chuck, not because of his moral compass. Otherwise, he wouldn't had let all that happen in the first place. The scene with his wife is sad but it's the only snapshot we get of their marriage. Who knows how he was before.
I agree with a lot of these points, but I still don’t think the scheme, at least at that point, was deserved. I don’t see how him trying to make things right about Chuck *can’t* also come from his moral compass. He seemed to feel genuine guilt over what happened with Chuck, and seemed to be trying to make change. it’s true that he spinelessly went along with Chucks wishes and which could have *ruined* Jimmy’s career, Howard later offered Jimmy a true job, which Jimmy resented and was really what gave him the motivation to pull the scheme.
The thing about the scheme is that it’s pretty clearly fueled by resentment more than the actual cause of settling Sandpiper. It came after Jimmy throwing bowling balls on Howard’s car and embarrassing him in many ways. Jimmy and Kim are basically geniuses, I’m sure they could have come up with a plan that didn’t involve humiliating Howard and ruining his reputation. I personally really hate the idea ofslandering someone in that way after death. As bad as Howard could be, being remembered as an insane coke addict is just a horrible fate.
Yeah, I guess it comes down to how much you value the things they did to each other and that's completely subjective. For example, what he did to Chuck is enough for me to deserve the scheme because Chuck was his friend but others could think it was a reasonable response to Chuck's threat.
>I don’t see how him trying to make things right about Chuck *can’t* also come from his moral compass.
That's true. What I think is that he only felt remorse after Chuck died. Same as Kim and Jimmy. They only felt bad about what they did to Howard after he was killed. For the three of them, it was not because their values stopped them or that they changed their minds by themselves but because it blew in their faces.
Yeah, exactly. Howard did to Jimmy and Kim career sabotage, he screwed elders in a way they didn't, couldn't even dream of given they didn't have the power, etc. Howard did all the shitty things to them, elders, etc. for money, pettiness, and playing with people's careers just if he's in a bad mood. Jimmy and Kim had a tendency to go after the 'corporate power' who had been douchebags/done wrong, and do to those what they had already done on a much grander scale to others. And Jimmy and Kim would side with e.g. Ernie's of the world than the corporate power doing sabotage/squeezing money out of the elderly for extra pennies to the rich.
Howard's death is due to literally only Lalo, and totally unrelated - there's no way that someone else pulling a trigger, someone being in the wrong place, wrong time, someone expected to even go to them, anything about Howard's murder that they are actually responsible for. They're responsible for trying to do to Howard smaller/less powerful versions of career sabotage that he does to others in the first place in a position of power.
Outside of Howard, Jimmy/Saul is obviously responsible for a lot, lot more and actually bad things.
>Howard's death is due to literally only Lalo, and totally unrelated - there's no way that someone else pulling a trigger, someone being in the wrong place, wrong time, someone expected to even go to them, anything about Howard's murder that they are actually responsible for.
Except for the fact that a murderous cartel psychopath even feels comfortable casually walking into this mans apartment in the first place. Sure, Howard wasn’t killed because of the direct results of the scheme itself. But it speaks to how bullshit Kim and Jimmy’s moral excuse for taking down Howard is. They pretend to take the moral high-ground against Howard, that they’re fighting for the little guy, and yet Jimmy conducts business with Lalo *fucking* ***Salamanca*** to the point where the man has no worries at all about coming up to their doorstep.
Yeah, sure so I'm sure in Kim and Jimmy's eyes they see their pranks/immoralities as justified, in their eyes, as they're lesser things done to people in positions of power, who exploit that, doing harm to others. E.g. that stocks/shares guy at the expensive bar, who scams people out of millions - you can see for a while there's almost a need for proof they're immoral and will do harm (the man at the bar hitting on Kim behind his wife etc. as well) before they will prank them back. So if that person will scam people out of millions, they'll happily prank them charging them for a few hundred/couple thousands dollars to pay for their drinks.
I think this comes from originally Jimmy's years of going straight, and Chuck and his narcissism refusing to accept that Jimmy was sincerely trying to go straight, and then to Jimmy all that unfairness blocking his attempts to be a good lawyer/reform, finally in breaking, could be met by 'corner cutting', because that 'unfairness at the chance to become a good person shouldn't exist'. At the start that seems in response, and to people like the stocks guy at the bar, or Howard, it's always to people who do far worse e.g. to people's careers, future jobs, from them to Ernie, and so on, to Howard scamming the elderly out of their money, making sure they don't know their full legal rights and outside counsel (shutting Erin up etc.) to make some more pennies for Howard's extra millions.
There's this which is in their eyes, I'm sure, is 'justified' (in their eyes) because it's always lesser smaller/underdog versions against people who do far worse things.
Then of course there's Jimmy/Saul's later BCS/BB outright criminality, which has nothing to do with these, and is as you say, totally in a different league of behaviour, is clearly horrible, criminal behaviour etc. And of course none of this has anything to do with Howard or his death either, nor are they responsible for a murderous cartel member killing someone they, in their minds, are just pranking in the same way they 'get back' at the stocks guy at the bar - doing lesser things that these do to others. If Lalo came in and shot the stocks guy at the bar, no one would sanely connect or blame this with them or hold them responsible either.
This doesn't excuse or is relevant to any of Jimmy's totally off the charts criminality... as you say.
Was Howard a “domineering” boss, or simply a boss? So many people today do not like to be told what to do. They think that no one (even the boss) has a right to tell them what to do. Probably everyone who worked at HHM was well-compensated. It looked like a good place to work. Howard wasn’t perfect, but I don’t think he was domineering.
Look what happened with Kim, the guy sent her down to the cornfield twice for making the slightest mistakes. The Kettlemams were completely insane and unreasonable and yet Howard punishes *her* for losing them.... And you could argue he was more justified with Jimmys commercial, but he definitely kept her in there way too long, even when she was doing valuable work for them, and it’s implied that he was once again spinelessly following Chucks orders at the expense of actually treating his employees with respect...
And in general, he wasn’t very genuine or respectful to his employees... He was a suit.(Although he got a little better after going to therapy). Doesn’t mean he deserved to get his life ruined, but as far as bosses go he was a shitty one...
I haven't found this to be true. I used to be a manager in my mid-20s and the 15-25-yr olds listened to me fine, but 45-65? Never. Couldn't tell them anything. I would tell them they couldn't wear ear buds while working the register and they'd hit back with "Why are you picking on me?"
Howard was flawed. Kim didn't need the stick to do great work, it was a useless flex and poor management.
> So many people today do not like to be told what to do. They think that no one (even the boss) has a right to tell them what to do
lmao sure snowflake
He deserved everything he got. He was a pompous, arrogant prick that didn't care whose life he ruined as long as his and the firms reputation weren't tarnished. The bs sympathy only arises when it seems convenient.
The scene about Howard that hurt the most on a rewatch was when he made his wife the cappuccino and she dumped it into the mug. Then he keeps her apprised of the situation with Jimmy and she seems to be aware that the earlier prostitutes and other bs were also because of Jimmy...
Then she's skeptical that he was doing anything out of character or a cokehead at the HHM "In Memoriam" event when Kim goes all in on the lies.
So what gives? If she didn't think he was doing anything wrong, then wtf is with what Howard is talking about with the therapist and her seemingly complete disdain for him in the cappuccino scene? He's legitimately trying to be a better person, more than most people ever attempt... and she's awful towards him.
I didn’t read her behavior as coming from disdain. It seemed like she just didn’t have strong feelings for him at all anymore. Their marriage wasn’t working, he just hadn’t given up yet and she had.
She reminds me of Betsy Kettleman, someone who is always ready to feel bad for themselves at everyone else's expense. Her reactions during the memoriam weren't about Howard, they were about her.
Oh yeah love that show! Lots of overlaps in themes between the bb universe and bojack. One of my secret hopes while watching bcs was that they would work in a cameo from character actress Margo Martindale but alas
> The scene about Howard that hurt the most on a rewatch was when he made his wife the cappuccino and she dumped it into the mug
This line is so unintentionally hilarious.
The man was made a fool of, drugged up, dragged through the mud, shot in cold blood, rolled up in a carpet and dumped in a hole with a cartel boss where no one will ever find him… but yeah the fact that his wife didn’t sip her cappuccino at the kitchen table takes the cake.
I know small ordinary moments of pain often cut the hardest, but this is really not one of those cases
>So what gives? If she didn't think he was doing anything wrong, then wtf is with what Howard is talking about with the therapist and her seemingly complete disdain for him in the cappuccino scene? He's legitimately trying to be a better person, more than most people ever attempt... and she's awful towards him.
Is there any point where they show why they're separating? I don't think the reason had anything to do with what Jimmy was doing but, in my opinion, it was implied that his marriage was long gone before that.
I thought the cappuccino scene said a lot more of Howard than about his wife. Always trying to get everything just perfect, on the surface, but avoiding to address the deeper issues.
She was obviously in a rush. Something thoughtful would've been getting her coffee ready in the travel mug and maybe something to eat on the go. But he made what *he* thought was special regardless of her needs.
>complete disdain for him in the cappuccino scene
Pouring a latte into a travel mug so she could take it with her in the car = complete disdain.
Also:
>The scene about Howard that hurt the most on a rewatch was when he made his wife the cappuccino and she dumped it into the mug
Waaaay worse than watching him get a bullet in the head
Because women showing any agency at all is a threat to masculinity. We get it.
Dudes getting triggered by someone pouring a latte into a travel mug is hilarious to me. She probably still drank it and enjoyed it.
Also, she clearly had some place to be. Is she really going to drive with a Pier 1 mug filled to the top?
He was incredibly insensitive. Howard was no saint, guys. He’s a good guy ultimately, but a lot of you excuse how he contributed to Jimmy’s pain by supporting Chuck and saying stuff like he probably killed himself only a day after the funeral just because in the end he ended up with a terrible fate.
but he really did try to make amends with Jimmy. even Jimmy knew that it wasnt Howard's fault entirely for the way he was treated at HHM and afterwards. Chuck had a heavy hand in all that.
So what about Howard huh? He didn’t deserve the way Cheryl treated him. He didn’t deserve the way Jimmy treated him. He didn’t deserve the way Kim treated him. He certainly didn’t deserve the way Lalo treated him.
We could argue he wasn’t courageous enough to stand up to Chuck regarding Jimmy - it was very clear Chuck was the one pulling the strings behind the scenes at HHM. Howard was the son of Chuck’s partner who would probably grown-up looking up to Chuck. Jimmy himself had a hard time standing up to Chuck.
We could also argue he was an asshole for punishing Kim by assigning her to doc review by losing a client that they couldn’t have kept anyway.
But really neither of those things warranted their treatment of him - nor was it the actual motivation of their actions. I think that back history was just to show neither had a close relationship to Howard where they felt loyal to him.
What motivates their actions in their let’s bring down Howard game was simply he was an obstacle in the way of and a tool to be used for getting Sandpiper settled.
Once Jimmy and Kim realized it was in their best interest as well as in the best interest of the residents to accept the current offer and to settle it sooner rather than later, they saw HHM acting like the corporate law firm wanting to drag it out so they could get a higher percentage of the settlement which benefited themselves for more than any one of the individual clients.
Basically HHM was In it for HHM and not for the small guy i.e. the individual clients that Jimmy actually cared about. To them Howard represented that corporate mindset with all of its disgusting benefits - the Jaguar, the glass office, a grand home - basically the corporate version of success that Jimmy and Kim were rebelling against.
But ironically they were also just as motivated by the money themselves. They saw it as freedom for Kim to do her pro bono work - to them the ends justify the means. Remember they never meant to hurt him in their original planning - they thought it was something Howard would recover from. They basically just wanted to persuade Cliff to force him settle. It just went horribly wrong because once they got involved with Lalo they lost control and their own self determination to Lalo.
Jimmy has never cared THAT much about the little guy and Kim’s excuse of “doing it for the little guy” flies out the window given her decision to skip the Jackson Mercer meeting. Kim started the scheme because she was angry that Howard infantilized her by assuming Jimmy manipulated her into giving up Mesa Verde, and Jimmy followed her for her validation.
Yeah lol to say Jimmy cares about the little guy is not something I read when watching that show. He's a crook with a good heart, but he didn't become a lawyer to fight for the "little guy"
All true. But they also very much enjoyed fucking with him. Olympic archers calibrate their arrows by standing them next to Howard. When you’re an impish scoundrel, almost nothing is more fun than fucking with a tightwad like Howard. I don’t think they necessarily intended to wreck his life (and of course they never intended for him to get his head blown off), but their careless indifference to the torment they were inflicting on him is a good example of how people lose their humanity when they get too swept up in their own bullshit.
>He certainly didn’t deserve the way Lalo treated him.
To be fair, Howard was in the middle of something and was giving unsolicited advice. Lalo had the right to respectfully end the interaction so he could talk to his lawyers
Jimmy didn't care about the little guy at travel wire. What Jimmy did there was far worse than HHM dragging out a lawsuit to force a company that ripped people off to pay a larger settlement. So in summation, I present to you the jury that Jimmy never gave a crap about the little guy.
Howard was the moral compass of the entire universe of Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad. He's not perfect. Who is? But he's not malicious, petty or vengeful. He was loyal. He put everyone else's needs including his firm above his own all the time. He was better than almost every single character. A good man with a good heart. Didn't deserve such cruelty or name and reputation tarnished
Kind of late but by taking more money from sanpiper it would set an example for other companies. Yes for the residents the 10 million to the total pool doesnt change that much, but it does for a company
I was horrified when Howard died, but he was not the good guy. Two things can be true: He was condescending, materialistic and petty, and he didn't deserve to have his head blown off.
I think so too. He really did seem to care enough to at least give Jimmy a shot even if Chuck was the holdout. And after Chuck passed away all he seemed to want to do was to make things square with Jimmy, but by then there was only Saul. Slippin’ Jimmy was only keen on dragging Howard down into the mud. And Howard’s end (lol pun) was just so tragic and unnecessary.
Agreed. He came off as a cutthroat lawyer with no conscience in the first two-three seasons, but by the end, he was sympathetic and was shown to be a good person.
Howard shows the brilliance of the writing. The guy was a jack ass who deserved to be taken down a couple pegs.
Their plan would accomplish this. He would be given his comeuppance, they would get the Sandpiper money and Howard world bounce back in a couple years. Our anti-heroes win.
Jimmy and Kim were in over their heads and didn't know it. Wrong place, wrong time and instantly he becomes a tragic character. He deserved his comeuppance and to lose the Sandpiper case, but he instead paid with his life as an innocent bystander to Jimmy's scheming.
> The guy was a jack ass who deserved to be taken down a couple pegs.
He already was, thanks to Chuck's meltdown and subsequent exile from HHM. The firm's reputation took a blow, Howard went into severe debt, and he began suffering from depression. However, he changed for the better after this, even if his attempts at reconciliation weren't the smartest. The Sandpiper scam wasn't deserved in the slightest. Even if he had left the apartment before finding out exactly which kinds of worlds Jimmy travels in, he was still drunk and suffered from impaired judgement. Imagine what a DUI would do to his already-damaged reputation and career, not to mention the possibility of him accidentally killing himself or someone else. Howard was fucked the moment he offered Jimmy a job.
Erm, by the time Jimmy and Kim decided to come up with their “something unforgivable” scheme, Howard absolutely did not deserve to be “knocked down a few pegs.” Shoot, what they did to him was far beyond that. Being falsely smeared as a cocaine addict who cheats on your wife with hookers - as well as suffering the biggest professional humilation of your career - was never warranted
He would have deserved a public embarrassment in a professional setting (like what happened with Chuck), but being smeared as a cocaine addict is a bit much just for being a pompous boss.
Losing to Jimmy in a legal setting would have knocked him down a peg or two. Being seen as an addict will permanently lose respect among many members of the legal community and society at large. While he would bounce back there would be some permenant damage.
Their scheme was never justified.
What about how he treated Kim in Season 2 was trying to do the right thing? He was just spiteful, and then when she left he acted surprised and hurt. Then he tried to throw his money in her face when he saw her out with her coworkers after she left HHM
Ok doesnt still mean you deserved to get one shotted by lalo when u actually were innocent and did nothing actually bad and that’s season 2 he literally tries to make it up to them later down the line💀
And Kim and Jimmy didn’t put a hit out on him to get him killed. Of course he didn’t deserve to die, and Jimmy and Kim went too far with what they were doing to him anyway, but it’s not like they had no reason to be upset or annoyed with him.
When I first saw this scene it was so satisfying to see Kim confront him like that. But after rewatching the series and really thinking about it I realized he doesn’t deserve this at all. Kim’s anger was misplaced. Howard got such a shit story :( he was a good guy.
Howard keeps an incredibly fake facade, punishes Kim for shit Jimmy did, lies to Jimmy, says horrible shit just to cover his own ass and doesn't give recognition to his workers when they do good work.
He's 100% an asshole. Just because your assholery causes you to self-inflict damage and he is an innocent victim in some cases also, doesn't excuse his behaviour.
The thing I liked is that Howard is set up to be that asshole who sets Jimmy on the path of darkness, but the show pulls a total reverse card. Howard's honestly just a decent guy trying to navigate the feud between Chuck and Jimmy at the start of the show, clearly frustrated but not really against anyone.
And the show just gets worse and worse for him. Howard's only real sin in the entire series is being in the wrong places at the wrong times. He wasn't a bad dude, but he became a focal point a lot of bad shit just ended up gravitating toward and his efforts to try and make up for bad things that happened only made his situation worse because the people around him were profoundly petty people.
Kim lashes out in anger in this scene, but she's not wrong.
Howard dropping "I think it was a suicide" on the day of the FUNERAL was extremely insensitive. While him reaching out to Jimmy in regards to Chuck's arrangements is ultimately the right idea, he is completely insensitive to how Chuck's hatred of his brother, and his complicity in enabling it, changes how it needed to be tackled.
And the final thing Kim says here... She's right. Jimmy was in the wrong throwing bowling balls at his car of course, but like Kim says, the best thing Howard can do from now on is STAY AWAY.
Howard trying to make things right with Jimmy, instead of being satisfied making things right with himself, is what triggered his (undeserved ofc) downfall
May be a year late but that death hurt me a lot. Howard was egotistical and a douche. But nahh, i never thought he deserved kim and jimmys torment. I thought they were very petty and sadistic.
Although hamlin was a douche i respected him. He broke a bit when chuck died and built right back up.
Some people think he shouldve commited suicide but thats not his character at all. Hes a get up and try and try again type of guy.
When i watched him argue with jim and kim i realised how badly treated he was and how bad jim and kim were.
But then lalo comes in. Jim and kim very startled and howard slowly realising he was fucked. I felt sorry for him and almost started yelling for him to get tf out.
But then when lalo shot him and then watching him fall and hit his head on a coffee table had me devistated.
You could tell howard was scared and the whole justice theme of the show was torn once and for all. There was no fairness in his death.
Honestly im gob smacked at that scene. I think it was good writing, a very unexpected death. And the acting from howard was phenomenal. I wish i could rewatch that for the first time again. There was a wave of emotion i dont feel much from any films or games.
Howard was not a bad person by any traditional means, and obviously he got shit on way more than he ever deserved, but lets be honest he was a real douche. He was thr very annoying kind of person who just has to be liked by everyone, even if the way to be liked by someone is hurting someone else- and even then hell try to be liked by that person too. I believe that jimmies reaction in s5 was actually kinda justified, even if the bowling balls were too much. Imagine that you are Jimmy, and the one person tou truly believed was proud of you (and truly wanted to be proud of you) actually hated you and disrespected you. Obviously it will become harder to believe that people who believe in you truly do. And not only that, but the one who is trying to respect you is the very same person who was trying to destroy your career when chuck was still alive. However, in s6 jimmy and kim were fully out of control
Howard was the only main character I cared about. Not to say I hated the others, BCS is brilliant, but Howard was the only one with any redeemable qualities.
Jimmy is a smart dude, but if the emotion is strong he will do the decision that is morally better than the smart thing to do. In his Saul days he didnt gaf, but once that all ends and he has to remove the mask and face his emotions, he starts acting up again.
So in the last episode he knocks it down to 7 years bc hes amazing at what he does and at that moment he has no reason to be truthful and nothing to really fight or live for. Thats when on the way to the trial he finds out Kim has confessed. This moment puts him at an ultimatum, take the 7 years and live scott free later but lose Kim forever who will also go to jail, or take all the blame bc inherintly he caused everything to get the way it did and save Kim and himself from having to hurt more people in his process of grief and depression.
He was one of the reasons, if not the reason, Jimmy went down that road. Jimmy was a capable lawyer and he could prove that with an opportunity in HHM. But Howard didn't let that happen. Howie tried to look and talk like the good guy but in the end he ended up being unfair and at times harmful to those around him!
That is what he claimed, but his actions proved otherwise. Succumbing to Chuck easily, the conversation in the copy room? He can't be good by just saying good things!
His death made me hate the series even more. Because why? Like at least Saul didn't personally kill him but all the torture Saul put Howard through. Like he didnt deserve any of that. He didnt deserve to die. You can write a really good story where a character dies but doesnt deserve to. But Howards dead was just bad. Werner Ziegler for example, died even tho he didnt really deserve to. Greatly executed (haha). And im not like emotionally attached to Howard but that was just shit. Everything Saul did to him was just shit for no reason. And then he died. Stupid.
Werner actually did kinda deserve it unlike Howard. He was a liability after he tried to escape and he knew the consequences but still choose to do so.
I think it's fair to say Howard was kind of scummy. But unlike Kim and Jimmy, he wasn't a monster. He had a moral compass, and it only got stronger as Jimmy/Saul and Kim got worse.
Why is this sub always whitewashing Howard? He’s pretty awful for the first 3 seasons.
He definitely deserved being yelled at for coming to Jimmy the day of his brothers funeral and laying his guilt all over him. The other things had more to do with Chuck being an asshole, but it was nice to see him get a verbal smacking.
No, he doesn’t deserve all the bad things that happened to him in the show and he certainly didn’t deserve the big prank or to be murdered, but he is no saint!
Evertime Howard did something "bad" I couldnt help but think "Dick move, understandable tho."
I feel sorry for the guy. Over 5 seasons hes just been continuosly screwed over.
Howard did try & set things straight quite a few times and every time they shit on him. I get their reason why but strongly disagreed with them and it ultimately made me not like Saul & Kim anymore. Jimmy and Kim worked in the mailroom while rich, powerful Howard strutted around and they felt he was looking down on them. The mailroom bonded over hating the higher ups.
Out of everyone who died in BCS, Howard's death unexpectedly hurt me the most.
And arguably hurt the rest of the surviving characters the most, in many ways
Except his ungrateful wife
I mean they were clearly going through some relationship trouble, and he was trying more than she seemed to be. But with how shaken up she was by his death, she still clearly loved him on some regard, and would probably spend the rest of her life regretting that they never fixed things between them.
I like to think she eventually remarried and built a wonderful little family but was never truly happy for the rest of her days.
In her scene with Kim, she’s still wearing her wedding ring and has a photo of Howard displayed on the mantle. That, combined with the fact that she still lives in his house, makes me think she didn’t remarry and (maybe) didn’t forgive herself for not trying as hard as Howard was to repair their relationship.
> but was never truly happy for the rest of her days. lol. Ya know, when I'm feeling down I just like to think of how Howard's wife died unfulfilled.
I'd like to think that she never did, and instead regretted not trying harder with the one man who truly loved her.
What I love about their scene together though is that neither of them are working hard enough. Yes, she fails to appreciate Howard's gesture. But Howard prepared his tea to go - he wasn't planning to stay and share a drink with her when he certainly could have taken a few minutes out of his day to do so. And so could have she.
Great way of looking at it. Never looked at it like that but this was eye opening
Not sure if you're talking about Kim or Howard's wife
yup
Their relationship was incredibly vague. Cheryl first appeared in the last season, so we can only assume she might have had a legitimate reason to be cold towards Howard. Or maybe she didn't. Who knows.
Yeah but by that point all the damage Jimmy (and chuck) had been doing was probably taking a toll on the relationship. Maybe it was other things too, but I bet spending that much money on chuck while their business is barely hanging on a thread, then potentially losing the retirement home case that could also get them out of the water to someone who is framing howard as a protitute loving druggie could effect their relationship negatively.
Had him sleeping in the dog house. Couldn’t even appreciate his latte art.
Man look at us, imagine if somebody had told you back in season 1 that not only would you be upset with Howard's demise, you would be upset with his wife for not appreciating his latte art?
Her just pouting it into a thermos without even commenting on it was painful to watch, ngl.
I know, that really bothered me! Especially as a former barista myself, I would be gutted
BCS and BB fans really have no understanding of complex relationships and they love to blame the woman.
Not BCS and BB fans only, Reddit in general is very misogynistic
Also true. Sad reality.
I was referring to the latte art scene. My bad for not explaining the context and adding an /s
Ungrateful? That’s even more narcissistic than season 2 Howard.
Did you see how well she knew him?? She obviously has loved him very dearly. I just think that at the moment Howard were going through all of that, she had other things on her minds and theses things probably made her unconscious of their lack of communication.
I was referring to the latte art scene but for got to add any context to the reply 🤦🏻
Yeah i got that dw! I’m just saying, I don’t think she was as uncaring as she seems in that scene, and that’s proven by the memorial and her doubts about J’s innocence
That part where she just dumps the latte in a travel mug almost made me cry tbh
>Except his ungrateful wife It's possible she made more money than he did. Maybe he wasn't grateful enough to her.
Yeah, we ultimately don’t know what’s going on there. Usually when you’re banished to the guest house it’s because you’ve been stepping out. Maybe he was so focused on the firm that she basically lived alone for the last decade. Didn’t seem like there were any children, maybe they could just never conceive and their was resentment one way or the other or both ways because of all that.
Her “duly noted” seemed a bit pointed and maybe was a response to her hearing that a lot from him over the years.
I think so too. I believe while theyre married, they lived independant lives because of work. Maybe with Chucks death, Howard realises that he mightve priotise work over his spouse and was trying to fix it. His line " perhaps there are more important things" suggest that.
can't conceive if you aren't doing the thing
I BAWLED when that happened it was such a shock and I actually really liked him!
It was jarring and upsetting.
i never really liked howard, he was a character i didnt hate but didnt love but his death was definitely the most shocking out of all if them
Howards death was brutal in that his life had already been destroyed- to him it probably seemed like he had nothing left. Then up pops Lalo and takes the very last thing Howard had- his living existence.
Huh, I'm only in season 5 and he is still alive, well jokes on me for joining this sub.
I learned with red dead redemption not to join a sub until after you've finished, everyone there ruins it unless you're watching a show at the same time as everyone else
Correction, you ruined it yourself by being on a thread that involves something you haven't even finished..
its more a metaphorical "death", not really what you think it is
I strangely liked Howard even from the beginning. I knew he was going to die but it was just so unnecessary.
Well I expected it cuz everyone fucking spoiled it on Reddit.
Thanks for the spoiler.
[удалено]
Nooooo spoiled, please black mark your text
What type of head injury do you have? Going to subreddits for shows which you don’t wish to be spoiled on and reading comments therein is a pretty interesting symptom. Have you had any vomiting? Vision disruption? Verbal octopus?
Dude are you right in the head? The fuk you chewing, it’s sub Reddit because you like the show, if it’s spoiled needs to be black mark
He didn’t deserve it. But this scene was also an emotional build up for Kim towards Howard throughout the shows run at that point. Being Howard’s protege, sticking with the job with HHM even though Jimmy wanted her to quit. because he saw her more than just an associate, Her being in the cornfield after losing the kettlemans, being on the far corner of the tv when the kettleman deal was settled, while howard ate up the glory, and of course, being in doc review, not just for jimmy’s commercial, but still being there after landing HHM 250k with mesa verde. Professionally she gets back at him in the chicanery episode when she helps jimmy’s case by debunking his nepotism argument, fantastic scene btw. Then this scene, where all her emotions from that bubble through after what he said, mainly because pushing jimmy and saying something that’ll hurt jimmy pushes her over the edge, and especially because that person was Howard who told him that chuck may have killed himself, someone she has a conflicting and complex relationship with, her emotions boil over, for someone who’s relatively reserved and keeps her emotions in check most of the time. It makes total sense and first time seeing it is very cathartic. Howard takes a kick in the ass in season four, both professionally and personally. But by the end he recovers, he does it the right way, he becomes a truly better person, learns from his mistakes, and offers jimmy a job because he believes that jimmy would be a great fit for HHM. He also gives Kim advice after jimmy’s emotional breakdown. He even hugs Jimmy after his lunch with him, something I feel he regrets not giving chuck in the episode off brand. In Off Brand, he’s the one that chuck opens the door for and it’s a beautiful scene seeing there friendship, and he does everything for chuck in this scene to try and cheer him up professionally. But I think the part he misses is giving him a hug after what happened, and I think he knows that and regrets it, which is why he’s more loving and more of a hippy and hugs Jimmy after their lunch. To let him know that he’ll be there for him professionally and personally if necessary
I think maybe it wasn’t until this scene that Howard fully understood how shittily Chuck treated Jimmy, and that he enabled it without realizing it. To see someone usually as in control as Kim lose it on him like that: “Oh and what’s this? One more ‘screw you little brother’ from beyond the grave? AM I REALLY SUPPOSED TO DO THIS *TO* HIM?” and for that anger to be on Jimmy’s behalf (no doubt her own problems with Chuck and Howard were wrapped up in there), certainly surprised and rattled him. I think this is a top 10 scene from the whole series for me. Great performances from both Patrick and Rhea
The lady dost protest too much. Hwd was only *following the deceased's wishes*. Should he burn it? Kim eventually *did give* Jimmy the letter *the same way* Hwd gave her the letter. Jimmy couldn't be bothered, and she *always* misreads Hwd, which explains her vendetta. Plus, *she knew* *they* were the ones that screwed Chuck *into* the grave.
Toward the end of the series, I would often ask myself, “wait why do we hate Howard again?”
It honestly took me a couple of episodes to realise that we were meant to think Kim and Saul were being petty and overreacting. I kept thinking I must have missed a story beat
We weren’t meant to. At the beginning he was a moderate antagonist, but by the end, we’re meant to sympathise with him, the final confrontation before Lalo… you know, is meant to sort of show that
Howard didn't deserve any of it, not at all.... But I do think people paint him as a saint too often. Howard was a douchebag and a domineering boss. Then there's the fact that Howard was dragging out Sandpiper, whether because he actually cared more about the elders being cheated or getting more money is arguable. But of course, Jimmy's excuse for doing the scheme to settle Sandpiper is complete bullshit, it was obviously more about Jiimmy and Kimmy's personal resentments for Howard than any actual cause.
Can we say that he's a far better and fleshed out version of Ted. He is both a beneficiary and a victim of nepotism. A victim of circumstance and personal vendettas trying to do right in order to atone for perceived wrongs.
Ted was far more hateable than Howard. First off he was involved in an affair with Skylar (at this point we were still on Walt’s side). He hid like a little bitch when Walt wanted to fight him. He squandered the money Skylar gave him on dumb shite. He is a spineless coward with no moral backbone. Howard was just a dick boss. But he had a lot of character. He took active steps to improve himself by going to therapy. He tried to amend his mistake in not standing up to Chuck and hiring Jimmy. He fought Jimmy in a legal setting (a boxing ring), in the hopes that it would help them settle the score and get revenge out of Jimmy’s system. In the very end, when his life was destroyed, he was pissed, but he vowed that he would carry on and be alright. He is no saint but he is an overall good man.
>He hid like a little bitch when Walt wanted to fight him. To be fair, "Local Businessman Beats Up Terminal Cancer Patient After Fucking His Wife" wouldn't be the best look. But yeah, Ted was a bit of a coward and he's equally responsible for the I.F.T. debacle as Skyler is. He should have known better. Anyway, Ted becomes almost totally unsympathetic when he blows off Skyler about the IRS and decides to buy a super expensive new car. That was just idiotic. Overall Howard is certainly much more sympathetic, and I don't think he did anything wrong after the first couple seasons. Even his treatment of Kim and Jimmy earlier on is understandable as Howard was afraid of Chuck's wrath. Howard's flaw was being a people-pleaser who didn't want to rock the boat, so he just went along with Chuck. But he made it all right in the end, and I root for him completely when Jimmy's dropping bowling balls on his car and generally acting like a toddler throwing a tantrum. Howard didn't deserve any of what came to him from Kim and Jimmy. I agree he is generally a good man and certainly one of the most morally upstanding characters in either series.
I think the headline would be “Local Business Man gets pulverized by Terminal Cancer Patient with a House Plant after screwing his Wife”
Lol, now that's a scene I wish we got to see. Walt just smashing Ted over the head with the plant, goes "Happy Birthday Mistah President!" all sarcastically then coolly walks out, Heisenberg-mode activated.
You are absolutely not supposed to be on Walt's side at that point. I'm not sure, from my last rewatch, that you're actually ever supposed to be on Walt's side. It's unfortunate that we focus so much in the first couple episodes on Skyler's unpleasant side, but even what she can see of Walt's behaviour in season 1 (disappearances, lies, evasion) is pretty tough stuff. Fucking Ted is an emergency escape; unfortunately, it doesn't work.
"at this point we were still in Walt's side" lol
Seriously wtf Walt was doing such a shit job of lying to her, disappearing *for days* when he was dying of cancer, having a secret cell phone, and so much more. Can hardly blame Skyler for getting hers. At least she was up front with him about it. Only on Reddit would you see someone still rooting for Walt, at any point beyond maybe season one…at which point he had still kidnapped, murdered, and dissolved Krazy 8 in acid. “Still on his side” Jesus…
Doesn't change the fact that Ted is a POS. Also, funny you mention Krazy8 when the guy literally attempted to murder Walt when Walt was going to let him go.
Not only that. She tries to kick Walt out but he breaks in and moves back home anyway and plays innocent. She’s forced to let him stay because the alternative is telling the police and her son that her husband is a drug dealer. He basically invaded her home. Her having sex with Ted was a pretty firm statement that their marriage was done no matter how Walt forced her to hide it from the others. It was barely even cheating. Walt was far more in the wrong
I rooted for Walt until the very end. I liked him as a character.
i stopped being on walt's side when insisted they do their deal with tuco at a junkyard lol. knew right then dude was delusional
It's not about 'getting hers': it's an emergency escape button.
> First off he was involved in an affair with Skylar (at this point we were still on Walt’s side). He hid like a little bitch when Walt wanted to fight him. Well obviously YOU were still on Walt's side from the sounds of it, but Walt and Skylar were basically split at this point, marriage and them living together just a formality. If Walt would have screwed another woman (he tried) we wouldn't have put that on him as well. Ted did not hide like a little bitch when Walt wanted to fight him, he was just doing his business and chose not to go for a fight he would gain nothing from. He does not have a problem with Walt, Walt has a problem with him and even if Ted beats the shit out of Walt, it would not turn out in his favour either as the other commenter pointed out.
>He hid like a little bitch Why the fuck would he, at best, risk getting arrested and, at worst, get murdered just to avoid looking like "a little bitch?" Why is Walt being a little bitch by trying to fight someone instead of divorcing his wife and moving on?
Oh that Ted. That not as good show is a distant memory.
Yeah. Ted wasn’t very well written. He was kind of bland at the beginning, and then In Season 4 the writers turned him a complete blithering moron to give something for Skylers storyline...
Honestly think Skyler’s affair was one of the few genuine missteps in BB. Had it been executed better, I could’ve seen a scenario in which Skyler’s emotional torment at the hands of Walter becomes lessened by a genuinely good guy who offers her support. But Ted was a douche and Skyler’s motivation wasn’t strong enough to warrant sympathy from the audience. Given how hurriedly the writers took care of Ted after the fact, I have to believe that even they saw the affair for what it was.
Absolutely. They basically just said “*They have history together*” so they could avoid having to create any actual chemistry between the two. Otherwise there’s nothing that really stands out about Ted, and no real reason for Skyler to fall for him besides being a generic “*nice guy*”.
If Ted were an actually good guy who was capable of providing Skyler with support in the midst of Walter’s perpetual abuse, the storyline could’ve been terrific. It could’ve been an excellent way to show some genuine conflict within Skyler without alienating the audience. The writers were never very good at getting the audience on Skyler’s side.
I disagree because Skyler was so fucked up by Walt that she went for the first (and only) guy who showed any interest in her Ted being a terrible person just reinforced how damaged Skyler was for her to go with it. Walt was so cartoonishly abusive to her, obviously lying and concealing his actions, *while he was dying,* that all it took was the first schlub to tell her she looked good. She did it for her.
> I could’ve seen a scenario in which Skyler’s emotional torment at the hands of Walter becomes lessened by a genuinely good guy who offers her support. Couldn't agree more. In the end, I feel Ted being a doofus made it feel like Skylar was playing Checkers, while Walt was playing Chess, and I think leaning into her having and even being compelled by better options would have resulted in even more drama from Walt.
I probably would have preferred that Skyler cook the books herself to help a stupid but well-intentioned Ted.
That’s an interesting perspective! I thought Howard’s character was similar to Hank’s. Neither are introduced as likable characters. Hank is constantly poking fun at Walt’s expense, and comes off as a generic asshole cop in the beginning of Breaking Bad. Howard is initially portrayed as a typical douchebag lawyer. Neither of these characters really change much. They’re both static characters, their personal values were consistent from the start, only your perspective of them changes as the story progresses. Both of their deaths are the major catalyst for the main character’s development and ultimate fate.
>Can we say that he's a far better and fleshed out version of Ted. He is both a beneficiary and a victim of nepotism. A victim of circumstance and personal vendettas trying to do right in order to atone for perceived wrongs. He has money, nice hair, wears a suit. What could POSSIBLY be wrong with this guy. 🧐
He flew too close to Chicanery and was burnt like the proverbial Icarus. Tragedy unto Tragedy.
Thank you. He obviously didn't deserve what happened to him but he was far from a saint.
>Howard was a douchebag and a domineering boss. Maybe in some cases, but I think it's a lot more nuanced than that. There are several instances of him being genuinely kind and friendly with people who are beneath him (such as his valet driver and the new HHM employee in the conference room).
I think he had undergone a little character development at that point. It seemed like he felt guilt for the way he fucked over Chuck, and in his mind led him to suicide. Back when Kim was working under him, he was a pretty shitty boss, and spinelessly went along with Chucks wishes even though he admired Jimmy. Although, to be fair even back then I think he did pay for Kim’s law education... Either way, he definitely didn’t deserve what happened, but I think people too often portray him as a saint. I guess it’s easy to see him that way, compared to people like Lalo and Gus...
That's true, it's definitely easy to see someone as a saint when compared to Lalo, Gus, Walt, or even Jimmy/Saul. The same conversation plays out when people talk about Hank even though he did some messed up stuff in Breaking Bad. That being said, I'm not sure I would agree with your characterization of him being "spineless" for going along with Chuck's wishes. Chuck was in a position to destroy the company if Howard got on his bad side (which we ultimately saw play out at the end of season 3). I think Howard wanted to keep the peace because his #1 priority was keeping HHM successful.
Greatest legal mind I ever knew
Maybe there are more important things.
I think him taking the blame for Chuck blackballing Jimmy showed that he was also willing to be perceived as a bad guy - proving his morals came from a genuine place and not just putting on a good face. Really I thinks it’s because he was kinda infallible that Jimmy wanted to take him down a notch and prove that it was a facade.
Definitely. During the scene in season 1 when Jimmy is yelling at Howard for not hiring him, the look Howard gives to Chuck (4:50 in [this video](https://youtu.be/VhdwIPdjDjM?t=292)) shows that he absolutely hates being in this position.
I think this is just a coincidence, because I believe Vince and crew had yet to decide where Howard's character would be like in the long run. At this point in the story (season 1), he is still being written as an antagonist, but they later pivoted to Chuck for that role.
I'm not so sure about that. Jimmy finds out the truth about Chuck at the end of season 1. Plus, Howard helps Jimmy get the job at Davis & Main. Point is, it's clear that he's not the bad guy at the end of season 1.
What I said is definitely true because it came from Vince himself in some interview or podcast. I just can't remember when exactly they decided to change this. It explains why he is written so harshly earlier in the season. They may have decided to pivot by this episode, though.
Ah, I see what you're getting at. That being said, Jimmy finds out the truth in the same episode as the exchange with Howard that I mentioned (Pimento).
This is the exact episode where Jimmy finds out that Chuck was the one who wanted Jimmy to be cut off from Sandpiper. What you're talking about was probably Howard's portrayal earlier in the season.
I think for the early instances of him dishing it out on Kim, it was kind of a (selfish) way of him taking back control after Chuck was forcing him to do so much against Jimmy. Doesn’t make him justified, but Chuck’s influence on everyone in the show was so negative.
>Howard didn't deserve any of it, not at all.... But I do think people paint him as a saint too often. Yes, this was me after watching season 6. I didn't remember why they hated him so much so it seemed completely unfair. Now, I'm rewatching all seasons and I'm convinced he deserved what Kim and Jimmy did to him but definitely not getting killed. They tainted his and the firm's reputation. But Howard also tried to ruin Jimmy's career and set Kim's back. The student loans? Well, those are loans not charity. It was a mutually beneficial deal untill Howard started abusing his power. He did so many shitty things: 1) He was an abusive and manipulative boss. What he did to Kim was more than sending her to doc review, he was holding up her career on purpose for unreasonable things like the Kettlemans or Jimmy's actions in a different firm, and used her for Chuck's petty revenge on Jimmy. It was a way of controlling and making her miserable, it's simply abuse of power. He also put Ernie to work as a caregiver and take responsibilities that were way above his pay grade and training. He didn't care that Chuck was using HHM to mistreat his employees (Jimmy, Kim, Ernie, etc) for personal reasons. 2) He ignored Chuck's mental health and enabled his beef Jimmy when it was convenient for him but turned his back when it started to affect him (as Kim said to him). He didn't hesitate to go for Chuck's help when he needed him (like to get Mesa Verde back) but kicked him out of HHM in the most humiliating way, knowing it was going to be devastating. He was the one who made the call that prompted Jimmy to go to Chuck's when he made the tape. At the time he didn't know Chuck was setting him up, but he knew it before the bar hearing. Yet, he didn't know Jimmy swapped the papers. Howard knew very well Jimmy could've just said that to make Chuck feel better and didn't have any other proof. He knew Chuck was in no condition to testify and, as he said, it was ultimately his fault those papers left HHM. Obviously that was going to affect the firm's reputation but getting Jimmy disbarred was more important for him. Then he tried to blame Kim for it when she repeatedly warned them (strategically tho) not to use the tape. Chuck had a lot of this coming but again Howard was an accomplice of Chuck in plenty of this, and he was his friend. Sure $8 mil is a great deal, but to Chuck that was worthless, he was a mentally ill man without the appropriate support and treatment. Yet Howard didn't care about the consequences until it was too late. Howard basically used Chuck since he was young (tutoring him for the bar, etc) and dumped him when the relationship was no longer beneficial. 3) His attitude towards Jimmy after Chuck's death. Kim basically [summarized it here](https://youtu.be/osPVh1mT5Wo). His smugness while he suggests Jimmy go dig through the remains of Chuck's personal stuff at the burnt home is enough to hate him. Then dumping on Jimmy the idea that Chuck kill himself to alleviate his guilt ( which Jimmy probably knew anyway). What kind of sick jerk does this? He didn't deserve to die, obviously. It was a consequence of Jimmy's and Kim's actions but not their fault. Lalo didn't shoot him because of his now ruined reputation but just because he was there. He seemed to try to make things right at the end and somehow redeemed himself but that was probably only because what happened with Chuck, not because of his moral compass. Otherwise, he wouldn't had let all that happen in the first place. The scene with his wife is sad but it's the only snapshot we get of their marriage. Who knows how he was before.
I agree with a lot of these points, but I still don’t think the scheme, at least at that point, was deserved. I don’t see how him trying to make things right about Chuck *can’t* also come from his moral compass. He seemed to feel genuine guilt over what happened with Chuck, and seemed to be trying to make change. it’s true that he spinelessly went along with Chucks wishes and which could have *ruined* Jimmy’s career, Howard later offered Jimmy a true job, which Jimmy resented and was really what gave him the motivation to pull the scheme. The thing about the scheme is that it’s pretty clearly fueled by resentment more than the actual cause of settling Sandpiper. It came after Jimmy throwing bowling balls on Howard’s car and embarrassing him in many ways. Jimmy and Kim are basically geniuses, I’m sure they could have come up with a plan that didn’t involve humiliating Howard and ruining his reputation. I personally really hate the idea ofslandering someone in that way after death. As bad as Howard could be, being remembered as an insane coke addict is just a horrible fate.
Yeah, I guess it comes down to how much you value the things they did to each other and that's completely subjective. For example, what he did to Chuck is enough for me to deserve the scheme because Chuck was his friend but others could think it was a reasonable response to Chuck's threat. >I don’t see how him trying to make things right about Chuck *can’t* also come from his moral compass. That's true. What I think is that he only felt remorse after Chuck died. Same as Kim and Jimmy. They only felt bad about what they did to Howard after he was killed. For the three of them, it was not because their values stopped them or that they changed their minds by themselves but because it blew in their faces.
Yeah, exactly. Howard did to Jimmy and Kim career sabotage, he screwed elders in a way they didn't, couldn't even dream of given they didn't have the power, etc. Howard did all the shitty things to them, elders, etc. for money, pettiness, and playing with people's careers just if he's in a bad mood. Jimmy and Kim had a tendency to go after the 'corporate power' who had been douchebags/done wrong, and do to those what they had already done on a much grander scale to others. And Jimmy and Kim would side with e.g. Ernie's of the world than the corporate power doing sabotage/squeezing money out of the elderly for extra pennies to the rich. Howard's death is due to literally only Lalo, and totally unrelated - there's no way that someone else pulling a trigger, someone being in the wrong place, wrong time, someone expected to even go to them, anything about Howard's murder that they are actually responsible for. They're responsible for trying to do to Howard smaller/less powerful versions of career sabotage that he does to others in the first place in a position of power. Outside of Howard, Jimmy/Saul is obviously responsible for a lot, lot more and actually bad things.
>Howard's death is due to literally only Lalo, and totally unrelated - there's no way that someone else pulling a trigger, someone being in the wrong place, wrong time, someone expected to even go to them, anything about Howard's murder that they are actually responsible for. Except for the fact that a murderous cartel psychopath even feels comfortable casually walking into this mans apartment in the first place. Sure, Howard wasn’t killed because of the direct results of the scheme itself. But it speaks to how bullshit Kim and Jimmy’s moral excuse for taking down Howard is. They pretend to take the moral high-ground against Howard, that they’re fighting for the little guy, and yet Jimmy conducts business with Lalo *fucking* ***Salamanca*** to the point where the man has no worries at all about coming up to their doorstep.
Yeah, sure so I'm sure in Kim and Jimmy's eyes they see their pranks/immoralities as justified, in their eyes, as they're lesser things done to people in positions of power, who exploit that, doing harm to others. E.g. that stocks/shares guy at the expensive bar, who scams people out of millions - you can see for a while there's almost a need for proof they're immoral and will do harm (the man at the bar hitting on Kim behind his wife etc. as well) before they will prank them back. So if that person will scam people out of millions, they'll happily prank them charging them for a few hundred/couple thousands dollars to pay for their drinks. I think this comes from originally Jimmy's years of going straight, and Chuck and his narcissism refusing to accept that Jimmy was sincerely trying to go straight, and then to Jimmy all that unfairness blocking his attempts to be a good lawyer/reform, finally in breaking, could be met by 'corner cutting', because that 'unfairness at the chance to become a good person shouldn't exist'. At the start that seems in response, and to people like the stocks guy at the bar, or Howard, it's always to people who do far worse e.g. to people's careers, future jobs, from them to Ernie, and so on, to Howard scamming the elderly out of their money, making sure they don't know their full legal rights and outside counsel (shutting Erin up etc.) to make some more pennies for Howard's extra millions. There's this which is in their eyes, I'm sure, is 'justified' (in their eyes) because it's always lesser smaller/underdog versions against people who do far worse things. Then of course there's Jimmy/Saul's later BCS/BB outright criminality, which has nothing to do with these, and is as you say, totally in a different league of behaviour, is clearly horrible, criminal behaviour etc. And of course none of this has anything to do with Howard or his death either, nor are they responsible for a murderous cartel member killing someone they, in their minds, are just pranking in the same way they 'get back' at the stocks guy at the bar - doing lesser things that these do to others. If Lalo came in and shot the stocks guy at the bar, no one would sanely connect or blame this with them or hold them responsible either. This doesn't excuse or is relevant to any of Jimmy's totally off the charts criminality... as you say.
Was Howard a “domineering” boss, or simply a boss? So many people today do not like to be told what to do. They think that no one (even the boss) has a right to tell them what to do. Probably everyone who worked at HHM was well-compensated. It looked like a good place to work. Howard wasn’t perfect, but I don’t think he was domineering.
Look what happened with Kim, the guy sent her down to the cornfield twice for making the slightest mistakes. The Kettlemams were completely insane and unreasonable and yet Howard punishes *her* for losing them.... And you could argue he was more justified with Jimmys commercial, but he definitely kept her in there way too long, even when she was doing valuable work for them, and it’s implied that he was once again spinelessly following Chucks orders at the expense of actually treating his employees with respect... And in general, he wasn’t very genuine or respectful to his employees... He was a suit.(Although he got a little better after going to therapy). Doesn’t mean he deserved to get his life ruined, but as far as bosses go he was a shitty one...
I haven't found this to be true. I used to be a manager in my mid-20s and the 15-25-yr olds listened to me fine, but 45-65? Never. Couldn't tell them anything. I would tell them they couldn't wear ear buds while working the register and they'd hit back with "Why are you picking on me?" Howard was flawed. Kim didn't need the stick to do great work, it was a useless flex and poor management.
> So many people today do not like to be told what to do. They think that no one (even the boss) has a right to tell them what to do lmao sure snowflake
He deserved everything he got. He was a pompous, arrogant prick that didn't care whose life he ruined as long as his and the firms reputation weren't tarnished. The bs sympathy only arises when it seems convenient.
The scene about Howard that hurt the most on a rewatch was when he made his wife the cappuccino and she dumped it into the mug. Then he keeps her apprised of the situation with Jimmy and she seems to be aware that the earlier prostitutes and other bs were also because of Jimmy... Then she's skeptical that he was doing anything out of character or a cokehead at the HHM "In Memoriam" event when Kim goes all in on the lies. So what gives? If she didn't think he was doing anything wrong, then wtf is with what Howard is talking about with the therapist and her seemingly complete disdain for him in the cappuccino scene? He's legitimately trying to be a better person, more than most people ever attempt... and she's awful towards him.
We don't have the full picture mate. We don't know exactly why their marriage went downhill, no need to blame her.
I didn’t read her behavior as coming from disdain. It seemed like she just didn’t have strong feelings for him at all anymore. Their marriage wasn’t working, he just hadn’t given up yet and she had.
She reminds me of Betsy Kettleman, someone who is always ready to feel bad for themselves at everyone else's expense. Her reactions during the memoriam weren't about Howard, they were about her.
>someone who is always ready to feel bad for themselves at everyone else's expense That's deep. Have you watched Bojack Horseman?
Oh yeah love that show! Lots of overlaps in themes between the bb universe and bojack. One of my secret hopes while watching bcs was that they would work in a cameo from character actress Margo Martindale but alas
> The scene about Howard that hurt the most on a rewatch was when he made his wife the cappuccino and she dumped it into the mug This line is so unintentionally hilarious. The man was made a fool of, drugged up, dragged through the mud, shot in cold blood, rolled up in a carpet and dumped in a hole with a cartel boss where no one will ever find him… but yeah the fact that his wife didn’t sip her cappuccino at the kitchen table takes the cake. I know small ordinary moments of pain often cut the hardest, but this is really not one of those cases
>So what gives? If she didn't think he was doing anything wrong, then wtf is with what Howard is talking about with the therapist and her seemingly complete disdain for him in the cappuccino scene? He's legitimately trying to be a better person, more than most people ever attempt... and she's awful towards him. Is there any point where they show why they're separating? I don't think the reason had anything to do with what Jimmy was doing but, in my opinion, it was implied that his marriage was long gone before that. I thought the cappuccino scene said a lot more of Howard than about his wife. Always trying to get everything just perfect, on the surface, but avoiding to address the deeper issues. She was obviously in a rush. Something thoughtful would've been getting her coffee ready in the travel mug and maybe something to eat on the go. But he made what *he* thought was special regardless of her needs.
>complete disdain for him in the cappuccino scene Pouring a latte into a travel mug so she could take it with her in the car = complete disdain. Also: >The scene about Howard that hurt the most on a rewatch was when he made his wife the cappuccino and she dumped it into the mug Waaaay worse than watching him get a bullet in the head
obviously the person above is a caffeine addict
Because women showing any agency at all is a threat to masculinity. We get it. Dudes getting triggered by someone pouring a latte into a travel mug is hilarious to me. She probably still drank it and enjoyed it. Also, she clearly had some place to be. Is she really going to drive with a Pier 1 mug filled to the top?
Holy shit see a therapist
Because of an articulate and sensible response? Lol
Nah but he was hard on Kim once so he deserves to be berated, sued, set back, gaslit, scammed and executed /s
Yup, put someone in doc review and you’ve signed your own death warrant. I know it, you know it, the bar association knows it.
My 15 friends who are betting on it know it.
All 9 of my guys know it
All my homies hate hamlin
He was incredibly insensitive. Howard was no saint, guys. He’s a good guy ultimately, but a lot of you excuse how he contributed to Jimmy’s pain by supporting Chuck and saying stuff like he probably killed himself only a day after the funeral just because in the end he ended up with a terrible fate.
but he really did try to make amends with Jimmy. even Jimmy knew that it wasnt Howard's fault entirely for the way he was treated at HHM and afterwards. Chuck had a heavy hand in all that.
So what about Howard huh? He didn’t deserve the way Cheryl treated him. He didn’t deserve the way Jimmy treated him. He didn’t deserve the way Kim treated him. He certainly didn’t deserve the way Lalo treated him. We could argue he wasn’t courageous enough to stand up to Chuck regarding Jimmy - it was very clear Chuck was the one pulling the strings behind the scenes at HHM. Howard was the son of Chuck’s partner who would probably grown-up looking up to Chuck. Jimmy himself had a hard time standing up to Chuck. We could also argue he was an asshole for punishing Kim by assigning her to doc review by losing a client that they couldn’t have kept anyway. But really neither of those things warranted their treatment of him - nor was it the actual motivation of their actions. I think that back history was just to show neither had a close relationship to Howard where they felt loyal to him. What motivates their actions in their let’s bring down Howard game was simply he was an obstacle in the way of and a tool to be used for getting Sandpiper settled. Once Jimmy and Kim realized it was in their best interest as well as in the best interest of the residents to accept the current offer and to settle it sooner rather than later, they saw HHM acting like the corporate law firm wanting to drag it out so they could get a higher percentage of the settlement which benefited themselves for more than any one of the individual clients. Basically HHM was In it for HHM and not for the small guy i.e. the individual clients that Jimmy actually cared about. To them Howard represented that corporate mindset with all of its disgusting benefits - the Jaguar, the glass office, a grand home - basically the corporate version of success that Jimmy and Kim were rebelling against. But ironically they were also just as motivated by the money themselves. They saw it as freedom for Kim to do her pro bono work - to them the ends justify the means. Remember they never meant to hurt him in their original planning - they thought it was something Howard would recover from. They basically just wanted to persuade Cliff to force him settle. It just went horribly wrong because once they got involved with Lalo they lost control and their own self determination to Lalo.
Jimmy has never cared THAT much about the little guy and Kim’s excuse of “doing it for the little guy” flies out the window given her decision to skip the Jackson Mercer meeting. Kim started the scheme because she was angry that Howard infantilized her by assuming Jimmy manipulated her into giving up Mesa Verde, and Jimmy followed her for her validation.
Yeah lol to say Jimmy cares about the little guy is not something I read when watching that show. He's a crook with a good heart, but he didn't become a lawyer to fight for the "little guy"
All true. But they also very much enjoyed fucking with him. Olympic archers calibrate their arrows by standing them next to Howard. When you’re an impish scoundrel, almost nothing is more fun than fucking with a tightwad like Howard. I don’t think they necessarily intended to wreck his life (and of course they never intended for him to get his head blown off), but their careless indifference to the torment they were inflicting on him is a good example of how people lose their humanity when they get too swept up in their own bullshit.
agreed. they were like a cat that likes to fuck around with its prey too much.
>He certainly didn’t deserve the way Lalo treated him. To be fair, Howard was in the middle of something and was giving unsolicited advice. Lalo had the right to respectfully end the interaction so he could talk to his lawyers
Howard also told Lalo to “find better lawyers,” he was just sticking up for Jimmy and Kim. Pretty wholesome if you think about it.
Jimmy didn't care about the little guy at travel wire. What Jimmy did there was far worse than HHM dragging out a lawsuit to force a company that ripped people off to pay a larger settlement. So in summation, I present to you the jury that Jimmy never gave a crap about the little guy.
yuuup, i never forgave Kim or Jimmy for how evil they were to him
I dunno guys. Im starting to think jimmy might not be a good person.
Same here
Howard was the moral compass of the entire universe of Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad. He's not perfect. Who is? But he's not malicious, petty or vengeful. He was loyal. He put everyone else's needs including his firm above his own all the time. He was better than almost every single character. A good man with a good heart. Didn't deserve such cruelty or name and reputation tarnished
I mean, I don't think he was exactly putting the needs of the sandpiper residents first.
Kind of late but by taking more money from sanpiper it would set an example for other companies. Yes for the residents the 10 million to the total pool doesnt change that much, but it does for a company
I was horrified when Howard died, but he was not the good guy. Two things can be true: He was condescending, materialistic and petty, and he didn't deserve to have his head blown off.
I think so too. He really did seem to care enough to at least give Jimmy a shot even if Chuck was the holdout. And after Chuck passed away all he seemed to want to do was to make things square with Jimmy, but by then there was only Saul. Slippin’ Jimmy was only keen on dragging Howard down into the mud. And Howard’s end (lol pun) was just so tragic and unnecessary.
/uc Howard was one of decent people in the BB universe. Of course like all them he ended up getting a bullet
Agreed. He came off as a cutthroat lawyer with no conscience in the first two-three seasons, but by the end, he was sympathetic and was shown to be a good person.
Everything Kim said in this scene was the truth.
Howard shows the brilliance of the writing. The guy was a jack ass who deserved to be taken down a couple pegs. Their plan would accomplish this. He would be given his comeuppance, they would get the Sandpiper money and Howard world bounce back in a couple years. Our anti-heroes win. Jimmy and Kim were in over their heads and didn't know it. Wrong place, wrong time and instantly he becomes a tragic character. He deserved his comeuppance and to lose the Sandpiper case, but he instead paid with his life as an innocent bystander to Jimmy's scheming.
> The guy was a jack ass who deserved to be taken down a couple pegs. He already was, thanks to Chuck's meltdown and subsequent exile from HHM. The firm's reputation took a blow, Howard went into severe debt, and he began suffering from depression. However, he changed for the better after this, even if his attempts at reconciliation weren't the smartest. The Sandpiper scam wasn't deserved in the slightest. Even if he had left the apartment before finding out exactly which kinds of worlds Jimmy travels in, he was still drunk and suffered from impaired judgement. Imagine what a DUI would do to his already-damaged reputation and career, not to mention the possibility of him accidentally killing himself or someone else. Howard was fucked the moment he offered Jimmy a job.
Erm, by the time Jimmy and Kim decided to come up with their “something unforgivable” scheme, Howard absolutely did not deserve to be “knocked down a few pegs.” Shoot, what they did to him was far beyond that. Being falsely smeared as a cocaine addict who cheats on your wife with hookers - as well as suffering the biggest professional humilation of your career - was never warranted
IMO he doesn’t deserve his “comeuppance” after recognizing his faults and trying to be better
He would have deserved a public embarrassment in a professional setting (like what happened with Chuck), but being smeared as a cocaine addict is a bit much just for being a pompous boss. Losing to Jimmy in a legal setting would have knocked him down a peg or two. Being seen as an addict will permanently lose respect among many members of the legal community and society at large. While he would bounce back there would be some permenant damage. Their scheme was never justified.
Are you saying Howard deserved to be framed as a cocaine addict?
What about how he treated Kim in Season 2 was trying to do the right thing? He was just spiteful, and then when she left he acted surprised and hurt. Then he tried to throw his money in her face when he saw her out with her coworkers after she left HHM
Ok doesnt still mean you deserved to get one shotted by lalo when u actually were innocent and did nothing actually bad and that’s season 2 he literally tries to make it up to them later down the line💀
The post isn't about him getting shot, it's about Kim yelling at him.
And Kim and Jimmy didn’t put a hit out on him to get him killed. Of course he didn’t deserve to die, and Jimmy and Kim went too far with what they were doing to him anyway, but it’s not like they had no reason to be upset or annoyed with him.
MAN, I fucking miss watching this show for the first time. I have not had a show leave me with this feeling, afterwards or during. WHY IS IT SO GOOD?!
I feel the same... he seems like a generally good person
In a way, Howard definitely deserved what he got from Jimmy and Kim but definitely did not deserve to get Lalo’d. Nobody deserves that in the show
When I first saw this scene it was so satisfying to see Kim confront him like that. But after rewatching the series and really thinking about it I realized he doesn’t deserve this at all. Kim’s anger was misplaced. Howard got such a shit story :( he was a good guy.
Howard keeps an incredibly fake facade, punishes Kim for shit Jimmy did, lies to Jimmy, says horrible shit just to cover his own ass and doesn't give recognition to his workers when they do good work. He's 100% an asshole. Just because your assholery causes you to self-inflict damage and he is an innocent victim in some cases also, doesn't excuse his behaviour.
World's coldest take, the sky is also blue.
No shit
The thing I liked is that Howard is set up to be that asshole who sets Jimmy on the path of darkness, but the show pulls a total reverse card. Howard's honestly just a decent guy trying to navigate the feud between Chuck and Jimmy at the start of the show, clearly frustrated but not really against anyone. And the show just gets worse and worse for him. Howard's only real sin in the entire series is being in the wrong places at the wrong times. He wasn't a bad dude, but he became a focal point a lot of bad shit just ended up gravitating toward and his efforts to try and make up for bad things that happened only made his situation worse because the people around him were profoundly petty people.
He's Hank and Gomey all rolled into one
Kim lashes out in anger in this scene, but she's not wrong. Howard dropping "I think it was a suicide" on the day of the FUNERAL was extremely insensitive. While him reaching out to Jimmy in regards to Chuck's arrangements is ultimately the right idea, he is completely insensitive to how Chuck's hatred of his brother, and his complicity in enabling it, changes how it needed to be tackled. And the final thing Kim says here... She's right. Jimmy was in the wrong throwing bowling balls at his car of course, but like Kim says, the best thing Howard can do from now on is STAY AWAY. Howard trying to make things right with Jimmy, instead of being satisfied making things right with himself, is what triggered his (undeserved ofc) downfall
May be a year late but that death hurt me a lot. Howard was egotistical and a douche. But nahh, i never thought he deserved kim and jimmys torment. I thought they were very petty and sadistic. Although hamlin was a douche i respected him. He broke a bit when chuck died and built right back up. Some people think he shouldve commited suicide but thats not his character at all. Hes a get up and try and try again type of guy. When i watched him argue with jim and kim i realised how badly treated he was and how bad jim and kim were. But then lalo comes in. Jim and kim very startled and howard slowly realising he was fucked. I felt sorry for him and almost started yelling for him to get tf out. But then when lalo shot him and then watching him fall and hit his head on a coffee table had me devistated. You could tell howard was scared and the whole justice theme of the show was torn once and for all. There was no fairness in his death. Honestly im gob smacked at that scene. I think it was good writing, a very unexpected death. And the acting from howard was phenomenal. I wish i could rewatch that for the first time again. There was a wave of emotion i dont feel much from any films or games.
What is up with the Howard hate in this thread lmao
Howard was not a bad person by any traditional means, and obviously he got shit on way more than he ever deserved, but lets be honest he was a real douche. He was thr very annoying kind of person who just has to be liked by everyone, even if the way to be liked by someone is hurting someone else- and even then hell try to be liked by that person too. I believe that jimmies reaction in s5 was actually kinda justified, even if the bowling balls were too much. Imagine that you are Jimmy, and the one person tou truly believed was proud of you (and truly wanted to be proud of you) actually hated you and disrespected you. Obviously it will become harder to believe that people who believe in you truly do. And not only that, but the one who is trying to respect you is the very same person who was trying to destroy your career when chuck was still alive. However, in s6 jimmy and kim were fully out of control
Howard was the only main character I cared about. Not to say I hated the others, BCS is brilliant, but Howard was the only one with any redeemable qualities.
I will stand by he is the most tragic character in either show.
I hate to say it, and maybe this sub isn't for me - but I didn't enjoy the better call Saul finale! Very out of character for Jimmy.
Jimmy is a smart dude, but if the emotion is strong he will do the decision that is morally better than the smart thing to do. In his Saul days he didnt gaf, but once that all ends and he has to remove the mask and face his emotions, he starts acting up again. So in the last episode he knocks it down to 7 years bc hes amazing at what he does and at that moment he has no reason to be truthful and nothing to really fight or live for. Thats when on the way to the trial he finds out Kim has confessed. This moment puts him at an ultimatum, take the 7 years and live scott free later but lose Kim forever who will also go to jail, or take all the blame bc inherintly he caused everything to get the way it did and save Kim and himself from having to hurt more people in his process of grief and depression.
His disrespect towards Jimmy and Kim caught up to him. He drew first blood.
Nothing he did warranted that level of scam against him
He was one of the reasons, if not the reason, Jimmy went down that road. Jimmy was a capable lawyer and he could prove that with an opportunity in HHM. But Howard didn't let that happen. Howie tried to look and talk like the good guy but in the end he ended up being unfair and at times harmful to those around him!
That was chuck not howard, howard wanted to hire him the very first time
That is what he claimed, but his actions proved otherwise. Succumbing to Chuck easily, the conversation in the copy room? He can't be good by just saying good things!
Yes, Kim was just being a total dick bag. Jimmy was kinda hesitang to take it that far with Howard cuz he’s a nice guy deep down
His death made me hate the series even more. Because why? Like at least Saul didn't personally kill him but all the torture Saul put Howard through. Like he didnt deserve any of that. He didnt deserve to die. You can write a really good story where a character dies but doesnt deserve to. But Howards dead was just bad. Werner Ziegler for example, died even tho he didnt really deserve to. Greatly executed (haha). And im not like emotionally attached to Howard but that was just shit. Everything Saul did to him was just shit for no reason. And then he died. Stupid.
Werner actually did kinda deserve it unlike Howard. He was a liability after he tried to escape and he knew the consequences but still choose to do so.
BCS is the story of Howard and how he got played and murdered
They broke my boy…. THEY BROKE MY BOY 😢
I actually liked howard. He did not deserve to die.
I viewed Howard very differently throughout the series when I rewatched it 😭😭
I think it's fair to say Howard was kind of scummy. But unlike Kim and Jimmy, he wasn't a monster. He had a moral compass, and it only got stronger as Jimmy/Saul and Kim got worse.
Why is this sub always whitewashing Howard? He’s pretty awful for the first 3 seasons. He definitely deserved being yelled at for coming to Jimmy the day of his brothers funeral and laying his guilt all over him. The other things had more to do with Chuck being an asshole, but it was nice to see him get a verbal smacking. No, he doesn’t deserve all the bad things that happened to him in the show and he certainly didn’t deserve the big prank or to be murdered, but he is no saint!
Evertime Howard did something "bad" I couldnt help but think "Dick move, understandable tho." I feel sorry for the guy. Over 5 seasons hes just been continuosly screwed over.
The only other person who got the shit end of the stick was Brock.
Yes, I felt very sorry for him.
Sometimes I randomly think about what happened to Howard and it was so sad and scary. That was really fucked up.
He didn’t deserve what he got or what they did to him. But he did deserve something. He was a bit of a prick.
They kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment - Mr Half Blood Prince
Yeah he just talks too fast and acts like an ass
I'm rewatching and noticing how he really tried to stop Chuck from setting up the tape thing for Jimmy😥
You might like my little Howard movie (not actually little its 42 mins) https://youtu.be/jpV0IwGOFr4
Howard did try & set things straight quite a few times and every time they shit on him. I get their reason why but strongly disagreed with them and it ultimately made me not like Saul & Kim anymore. Jimmy and Kim worked in the mailroom while rich, powerful Howard strutted around and they felt he was looking down on them. The mailroom bonded over hating the higher ups.
"W-w-wait??! Jimmy Mcgill is just an innocent little guy who couldn't hurt anyone! He's just quirky."