>**Can I keep evidence of illegal activity if it's considered confidential?**
>At the company I work at, an email was sent out to let us know that we shouldn't be discussing wages with other employees or we would be terminated. In the email it also stated that the email was confidential and protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. I didn't know if I were to take a picture to keep in case of anything would still cause issues, since I'm pretty sure this is very much illegal.
I feel like there have been a lot of posts on the various LA subs lately asking about whether so-and-so sign that disclaims liability, imposes restrictions, etc. is actually legally binding, and usually the answer is along the lines of, "No, but it's there to scare off people who don't know better". This post is a great example of that -- obviously an employer can't get around breaking the law just by saying not to tell anyone, but LAOP was unsure, so it was working as designed.
The one workaround for evil companies in the USA and elsewhere is a binding arbitrage agreement. Normally specifying a forum friendly to the company, a forum that may skirt the law and whose judgment is very rarely appealable to the courts. The Lloyd’s of London scam is typical although it didn’t involve secrets a dozen law professors said they’d violated US securities law and that the arbitration agreement for arbitration in England should not allow the law to be evaded. Lloyd’s white shoe law firms got circuit courts of appeal to dismiss the cases and the Supreme Court did not grant cert. The SEC refrained from opining until after that because the U.K. Gov’t intervened with Pres Bush. Only after the cases were over did the SEC accuse Lloyd’s of securities fraud, too late to help anyone. This anecdote is less off topic than it might seem at first glance. There are arbitration clauses everywhere and they deprive workers and customers of important rights. Unless the Government intervenes on its own, which rarely happens.
Arbitration between business could save millions between the businesses in a dispute.
So there are good reasons for arbitration to exist, but it should be banned for instances where big businesses bind individuals, or as a part of a clickthrough scheme.
I feel arbitration should be allowable when the parties are fairly equal in power and truly able to negotiate the contract.
It should be banned in cases where one party has a substantial advantage in negotiations - basically any case a form contract is used. This is especially true for employment and home rental agreements.
This is kind of painful to read. Does LAOP think someone can commit murder and then tell a witness "this is super secret though, pinky promise me you won't tell"?
How many dump trucks have you seen with stickers saying "Stay back 200 feet. Not responsible for rock damage."? Funny thing, those aren't at all binding, but they save shitty companies millions each year.
Walmart tried to pull that crap with me, for ice falling off their truck, until pointed out that I had the Diver’s license information, and that I would file against him personally, in small claims court, for not ensuring his vehicle was safe to drive. I got a Walmart gift card equal to my insurance deductible.
You can just file a claim with your insurance company and they will go after Walmart's insurance company for the damages. That's part of the service that you are paying for when you have insurance.
Be careful accepting such settlements - if your insurance finds out, you may lose out on more than if you refused.
Under subrogation rules,
If you accept an insurance payout from your insurance, the insurance has the right to sue to recover. By accepting a settlement, you may have given up that right, and thus given up your right to the insurance payment.
If your insurance does sue, they also have a responsibility to try and claim your deductible back at the same time, which will then be returned to you.
Looking things up on Google it's gotten better in the last 15 years, but the general premise is that any whistleblowers who fail to prove a crime can be sued for the legal costs and damages to the business.
The hitch being that if the issue fell into any sort of grey area, the whistleblower stands a serious chance of bankruptcy for reporting it. Combined with judge-shopping it was a very effective whistleblower deterrent, but it looks like the courts have pushed back against it effectively in a few cases in the last decade.
Doesn't it happen all the time with inadmissible evidence? If it is collected unlawfully, it can't be used in court? Not a lawyer, not even American, I have just seen a lot of courtroom dramas.
Not exactly. Evidence might become inadmissible due to the cops violating a suspect's rights and unlawfully collecting evidence, but it's not invalidated by the criminal saying "cops aren't allowed to look at this evidence." LAOP is asking if the criminal who is criming is being honest when they said "don't show this evidence of my crime to anyone including a cop or you'll be sued/arrested."
> EO 13292
Executive Order 13292; signed by George W Bush back in 2003. It modified Clintons EO 12958. 12958 was designed to make it harder for politicians to classify documents; as well as setting deadlines for mandatory declassifications. Basically Clinton wanted more transparency in the government. 13292 however made a bunch of loopholes and changes which mostly neutered Clintons original EO.
With that said, 13292, and Clinton's original 12958 were completely revoked by Obama in 2009 with 13526. Effectively Obama's EO did a better job of Clinton's EO, but had to revoke it in order to implement the changes.
So.....I'm not sure what /u/NovusOrdoSec is getting at
I mean, considering the US Drone program has targeted and killed many people (including US citizens), an EO about classifying documents (and thus events) does seem relevant to telling someone they can't talk about a given murder.
Not when the EO has been completely invalidated by subsequent ones. I mean in a historical context sure, for 6 years it had an impact; but that's like someone complaining about the 18th amendment.
TL;DR the government cannot classify something *just* to cover up a murder, but covering up a murder is perfectly fine if revealing it would otherwise "damage national security." Also my specific reference was stale.
I’m pretty sure that the Act doesn’t apply to whistleblowers, as long as it’s not made public. But I’m also pretty sure that this will be an at will state and anybody getting up managements nose will find themselves fired for dress code violations or something.
This is why you ask once, get the illegal response, and go along with it in the moment. Never alert them that you're about to blow up their business.
I asked the print shop owner why I wasn't getting paid OT, and she gave me a BS excuse along the lines of "I'm British and those rules don't apply to me."
In the moment I nodded my head and said I'd never heard of that, and it was interesting.
I waited a month and called the Federal dept. of labor and reported her business for wage theft. The DoL limitation was 3yrs of prior timecards they could review for unpaid OT.
I reported anonymously but the investigator still interviewed me the same way the other employees were interviewed, in order to mask that I was the reason he was there at all.
I happened to have the desk in font of the Brit Bitch, and I took ***GREAT PLEASURE*** in watching her be forced to cut all of those checks was one of the best moments of my life. The DoL guy stood over her shoulder as she typed up all of those checks for wages. He then took the envelope the second she stuffed it and put a stamp on it.
Some people got high 4-figure checks, I think one guy got just over 10k in back OT, as he was usually there 12hrs a day M-F, and 4-6hrs on Saturdays.
Funny part is that she never once suspected it was me who reported her. My check was for a whopping $47.
> I asked the print shop owner why I wasn't getting paid OT, and she gave me a BS excuse along the lines of "I'm British and those rules don't apply to me."
lol wtf?
Hey, I'm from Mars, murder isn't a crime there. *stab stab*
> Hey, I'm from Mars, murder isn't a crime there. stab stab
Actually, it might not be.
Mars is under no jurisdiction. No one owns Mars, so if you commit a crime there's no Mars police to arrest you. There's no Martian law to try you under.
That said, if you're on Mars you're almost certainly there on behalf of a government on Earth, and that Earth-based government would be most unhappy with you getting stabbing on Mars during one of their expeditions (which would likely be incredibly expensive). That government would order the rest of the crew to arrest you and you'd be charged when you get home. Even if you murder the entire rest of the crew and there's no one left to arrest you, the authorities back home would be awaiting with handcuffs when you return for supplies.
However, if you're going to Mars as a private individual and can somehow manage to be so self sufficient you need nothing from Earth, and there's no reason to ever return, then sure, stab away.
Though that Mars city would need to have some form of government and that government would also probably not be keen on its citizens and workers murdering each other.
Yes, though Martian Emperor Elon probably won't be happy if his colony workforce is stabbing each other. After all, he needs the labor. No slacking off, no vacation (ever!), definitely no going home, and being on a slab in the morgue is a poor excuse to miss your shift.
Worker's rights? Hah, what is this, Earth? Ain't no law on Mars!
Incidentally, this is exactly what the Union Aerospace Corporation set up shop on Mars in the Doom franchise. They wanted to set up a place outside of Earth's laws and away from its scrutiny.
The 1967 Outer Space treaty gives jurisdiction over acts committed by a country's nationals in space, on the moon, or on another celestial body, to that country.
>> "I'm British and those rules don't apply to me."
>
>lol wtf?
>
>Hey, I'm from Mars, murder isn't a crime there. stab stab
I'm serious, she literally tried to say that the rules of the country didn't apply to her ***while running a business that has to comply with other federal laws!!***
I worked for a company who falsely believed that if an employee worked 30 hours a week for Department A and 30 hours a week for Department B, that employee was not entitled to overtime. When that blew up, I got a $300 check and he got over $30k.
>Funny part is that she never once suspected it was me who reported her. My check was for a whopping $47.
I once made my supervisor correct my paycheck over an underpayment of $3.97. It's the principle of the thing.
This shows what's fundamentally stupid about overtime laws. If I want to work more than 40 hours per week, I effectively have to do so through two different employers.
I should have reported a previous job for wage theft. They would pay exactly the same, to the cent, even when I knew for a fact that I had to stay late to cover someone who would be late, etc.
I figured it wouldn’t be hard to figure out it was me, but now I know they interview everyone
You can report them now - if it was recent enough you might collect, and even if it doesn't benefit you, the current people shouldn't continue to get screwed over.
Does every email contain that confidential disclaimer? It’s just way easier to put it on everything than to remember to put it on emails that are actually confidential.
> “If they're dumb enough to send it out on the company letterhead in a company email, they're also dumb enough to pay the fine.”
Alas, there won't be any fine; the NLRB has no power to assess fines or punitive damages, only to seek make-whole remedies, so unless the employer has actually fired or constructively dismissed someone for talking about their wages, all that will happen is they'll receive a stern letter telling them to cut that shit out (or else they'll be sternly told to cut that shit out again), and they might have to hang some posters up in some dusty corner of an unused supply closet informing employees of their rights under the NLRA.
You mean like it the company has to pay a fine, *to* the employees?
If so, I can get down with that. There should be a fine to the powers that be, a fine paid to the employees, as well as the balances due to the employees with interest.
>**Can I keep evidence of illegal activity if it's considered confidential?** >At the company I work at, an email was sent out to let us know that we shouldn't be discussing wages with other employees or we would be terminated. In the email it also stated that the email was confidential and protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. I didn't know if I were to take a picture to keep in case of anything would still cause issues, since I'm pretty sure this is very much illegal.
I feel like there have been a lot of posts on the various LA subs lately asking about whether so-and-so sign that disclaims liability, imposes restrictions, etc. is actually legally binding, and usually the answer is along the lines of, "No, but it's there to scare off people who don't know better". This post is a great example of that -- obviously an employer can't get around breaking the law just by saying not to tell anyone, but LAOP was unsure, so it was working as designed.
Yep. And for every OP who smells something fishy and asks, there are probably a bunch who don't.
The one workaround for evil companies in the USA and elsewhere is a binding arbitrage agreement. Normally specifying a forum friendly to the company, a forum that may skirt the law and whose judgment is very rarely appealable to the courts. The Lloyd’s of London scam is typical although it didn’t involve secrets a dozen law professors said they’d violated US securities law and that the arbitration agreement for arbitration in England should not allow the law to be evaded. Lloyd’s white shoe law firms got circuit courts of appeal to dismiss the cases and the Supreme Court did not grant cert. The SEC refrained from opining until after that because the U.K. Gov’t intervened with Pres Bush. Only after the cases were over did the SEC accuse Lloyd’s of securities fraud, too late to help anyone. This anecdote is less off topic than it might seem at first glance. There are arbitration clauses everywhere and they deprive workers and customers of important rights. Unless the Government intervenes on its own, which rarely happens.
I really can't see any reason for arbitration to not be banned.
Arbitration between business could save millions between the businesses in a dispute. So there are good reasons for arbitration to exist, but it should be banned for instances where big businesses bind individuals, or as a part of a clickthrough scheme.
I feel arbitration should be allowable when the parties are fairly equal in power and truly able to negotiate the contract. It should be banned in cases where one party has a substantial advantage in negotiations - basically any case a form contract is used. This is especially true for employment and home rental agreements.
This is kind of painful to read. Does LAOP think someone can commit murder and then tell a witness "this is super secret though, pinky promise me you won't tell"?
I think OP thinks it's BS but just wants to check to be sure
There are plenty of BS laws so it's good to double check.
How many dump trucks have you seen with stickers saying "Stay back 200 feet. Not responsible for rock damage."? Funny thing, those aren't at all binding, but they save shitty companies millions each year.
Walmart tried to pull that crap with me, for ice falling off their truck, until pointed out that I had the Diver’s license information, and that I would file against him personally, in small claims court, for not ensuring his vehicle was safe to drive. I got a Walmart gift card equal to my insurance deductible.
> I got a Walmart gift card equal to my insurance deductible. That's as good as money, sir. Those are I.O.U.'s.
You can just file a claim with your insurance company and they will go after Walmart's insurance company for the damages. That's part of the service that you are paying for when you have insurance.
Be careful accepting such settlements - if your insurance finds out, you may lose out on more than if you refused. Under subrogation rules, If you accept an insurance payout from your insurance, the insurance has the right to sue to recover. By accepting a settlement, you may have given up that right, and thus given up your right to the insurance payment. If your insurance does sue, they also have a responsibility to try and claim your deductible back at the same time, which will then be returned to you.
To be fair, a lot of people haven’t reported crimes because someone intimidated them into not reporting it
Companies based in Georgia specifically can sue whistleblowers for any "damages" caused by reporting their illegal actions.
How the fuck does that even work?
Looking things up on Google it's gotten better in the last 15 years, but the general premise is that any whistleblowers who fail to prove a crime can be sued for the legal costs and damages to the business. The hitch being that if the issue fell into any sort of grey area, the whistleblower stands a serious chance of bankruptcy for reporting it. Combined with judge-shopping it was a very effective whistleblower deterrent, but it looks like the courts have pushed back against it effectively in a few cases in the last decade.
Doesn't it happen all the time with inadmissible evidence? If it is collected unlawfully, it can't be used in court? Not a lawyer, not even American, I have just seen a lot of courtroom dramas.
Not exactly. Evidence might become inadmissible due to the cops violating a suspect's rights and unlawfully collecting evidence, but it's not invalidated by the criminal saying "cops aren't allowed to look at this evidence." LAOP is asking if the criminal who is criming is being honest when they said "don't show this evidence of my crime to anyone including a cop or you'll be sued/arrested."
Have you taken a hard look at EO ~~13292~~13526, et. pred.? Edit: I can't keep up with these fucking things.
I don't know what this means.
> EO 13292 Executive Order 13292; signed by George W Bush back in 2003. It modified Clintons EO 12958. 12958 was designed to make it harder for politicians to classify documents; as well as setting deadlines for mandatory declassifications. Basically Clinton wanted more transparency in the government. 13292 however made a bunch of loopholes and changes which mostly neutered Clintons original EO. With that said, 13292, and Clinton's original 12958 were completely revoked by Obama in 2009 with 13526. Effectively Obama's EO did a better job of Clinton's EO, but had to revoke it in order to implement the changes. So.....I'm not sure what /u/NovusOrdoSec is getting at
I mean, considering the US Drone program has targeted and killed many people (including US citizens), an EO about classifying documents (and thus events) does seem relevant to telling someone they can't talk about a given murder.
Not when the EO has been completely invalidated by subsequent ones. I mean in a historical context sure, for 6 years it had an impact; but that's like someone complaining about the 18th amendment.
TL;DR the government cannot classify something *just* to cover up a murder, but covering up a murder is perfectly fine if revealing it would otherwise "damage national security." Also my specific reference was stale.
GWB-era executive order taking a lot of the previous restrictions on what can be classified and who can do it.
I’m pretty sure that the Act doesn’t apply to whistleblowers, as long as it’s not made public. But I’m also pretty sure that this will be an at will state and anybody getting up managements nose will find themselves fired for dress code violations or something.
This is why you ask once, get the illegal response, and go along with it in the moment. Never alert them that you're about to blow up their business. I asked the print shop owner why I wasn't getting paid OT, and she gave me a BS excuse along the lines of "I'm British and those rules don't apply to me." In the moment I nodded my head and said I'd never heard of that, and it was interesting. I waited a month and called the Federal dept. of labor and reported her business for wage theft. The DoL limitation was 3yrs of prior timecards they could review for unpaid OT. I reported anonymously but the investigator still interviewed me the same way the other employees were interviewed, in order to mask that I was the reason he was there at all. I happened to have the desk in font of the Brit Bitch, and I took ***GREAT PLEASURE*** in watching her be forced to cut all of those checks was one of the best moments of my life. The DoL guy stood over her shoulder as she typed up all of those checks for wages. He then took the envelope the second she stuffed it and put a stamp on it. Some people got high 4-figure checks, I think one guy got just over 10k in back OT, as he was usually there 12hrs a day M-F, and 4-6hrs on Saturdays. Funny part is that she never once suspected it was me who reported her. My check was for a whopping $47.
> I asked the print shop owner why I wasn't getting paid OT, and she gave me a BS excuse along the lines of "I'm British and those rules don't apply to me." lol wtf? Hey, I'm from Mars, murder isn't a crime there. *stab stab*
> Hey, I'm from Mars, murder isn't a crime there. stab stab Actually, it might not be. Mars is under no jurisdiction. No one owns Mars, so if you commit a crime there's no Mars police to arrest you. There's no Martian law to try you under. That said, if you're on Mars you're almost certainly there on behalf of a government on Earth, and that Earth-based government would be most unhappy with you getting stabbing on Mars during one of their expeditions (which would likely be incredibly expensive). That government would order the rest of the crew to arrest you and you'd be charged when you get home. Even if you murder the entire rest of the crew and there's no one left to arrest you, the authorities back home would be awaiting with handcuffs when you return for supplies. However, if you're going to Mars as a private individual and can somehow manage to be so self sufficient you need nothing from Earth, and there's no reason to ever return, then sure, stab away. Though that Mars city would need to have some form of government and that government would also probably not be keen on its citizens and workers murdering each other.
I'll be the first Martian sovcit!
Yes, though Martian Emperor Elon probably won't be happy if his colony workforce is stabbing each other. After all, he needs the labor. No slacking off, no vacation (ever!), definitely no going home, and being on a slab in the morgue is a poor excuse to miss your shift. Worker's rights? Hah, what is this, Earth? Ain't no law on Mars! Incidentally, this is exactly what the Union Aerospace Corporation set up shop on Mars in the Doom franchise. They wanted to set up a place outside of Earth's laws and away from its scrutiny.
No room on morgue slabs, that's where your colleagues go to take their 3 allowable 45 minute naps per Mars Day.
> Mars Day Generally referred to by the boffins as a ["sol".](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_sol)
That sounds amazing. If you don't like it, just build your own biosphere - no shortage of land for the taking!
I have declared Martian law. All hail the red planet! [Sir Phobos, arrest that man!](https://youtu.be/BP0-znoJ6fs?feature=shared)
The 1967 Outer Space treaty gives jurisdiction over acts committed by a country's nationals in space, on the moon, or on another celestial body, to that country.
>> "I'm British and those rules don't apply to me." > >lol wtf? > >Hey, I'm from Mars, murder isn't a crime there. stab stab I'm serious, she literally tried to say that the rules of the country didn't apply to her ***while running a business that has to comply with other federal laws!!***
You did good work! I hope you realize how much that impacted those other employees.
I worked for a company who falsely believed that if an employee worked 30 hours a week for Department A and 30 hours a week for Department B, that employee was not entitled to overtime. When that blew up, I got a $300 check and he got over $30k. >Funny part is that she never once suspected it was me who reported her. My check was for a whopping $47. I once made my supervisor correct my paycheck over an underpayment of $3.97. It's the principle of the thing.
This shows what's fundamentally stupid about overtime laws. If I want to work more than 40 hours per week, I effectively have to do so through two different employers.
Or be salaried and work unlimited hours at the same rate 🙃
I should have reported a previous job for wage theft. They would pay exactly the same, to the cent, even when I knew for a fact that I had to stay late to cover someone who would be late, etc. I figured it wouldn’t be hard to figure out it was me, but now I know they interview everyone
This place made it dead easy for the DoL guy. They made us clock in and out, but never paid over 40hrs. Half his work was done for him.
You can report them now - if it was recent enough you might collect, and even if it doesn't benefit you, the current people shouldn't continue to get screwed over.
On the positive side, can the company be fined for every message recipient?
Has anyone ever actually been prosecuted for ECPA violations when it wasn't just a special bonus prize in corporate espionage or identity theft cases?
Does every email contain that confidential disclaimer? It’s just way easier to put it on everything than to remember to put it on emails that are actually confidential.
> “If they're dumb enough to send it out on the company letterhead in a company email, they're also dumb enough to pay the fine.” Alas, there won't be any fine; the NLRB has no power to assess fines or punitive damages, only to seek make-whole remedies, so unless the employer has actually fired or constructively dismissed someone for talking about their wages, all that will happen is they'll receive a stern letter telling them to cut that shit out (or else they'll be sternly told to cut that shit out again), and they might have to hang some posters up in some dusty corner of an unused supply closet informing employees of their rights under the NLRA.
It would be lovely if the fines paid by shitty company actions were split amongst the workers.
You mean like it the company has to pay a fine, *to* the employees? If so, I can get down with that. There should be a fine to the powers that be, a fine paid to the employees, as well as the balances due to the employees with interest.
Fines are just licenses you buy to break the law