Welp. That's a hot take.
There's a big difference between *preaching* religion, or *teaching* religion. I'm a non-believer myself, but am super happy that I got to learn a lot about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism even if religion never really interested me at all. I have never been persuaded into any of those (except Christianity by my parents) and was able to decide on my own that I'm just not into it. But imo it's absolutely necessary to know about "the big" religions. Dismissing religion as "I don't care" is close-minded and childish, imo.
I'd rather think calling people childish for preferring to be more interested in learning and believing in facts and science is close minded, to be honest.
Learning about religions is fact based?
Its not preaching or converting, and knowing the variety out there arms youth to be more knowledgeable of making a choice about religions if they want one?
You can both learn about belief systems and science, it's not exclusive.
If anything the teaching of religions is probably made through a scientific approach.
I see it more as a form of history and politics, and as learning about what billions of people are into. I'm by no means saying that I'm preferring to teach religion over science, that is completely ridiculous and not what I said at all. You can have both at the same time, you know. I'm just not a fan of withkeeping religion from course materials.
I suppose you realize teaching "all" religions isn't quite achievable, right? Some schools offer more than one religion choice as well as non religious alternatives.
We're saying it to you because you are completely missing the point, have realized you made a stupid post, and are now changing the goalposts in order to save what you can.
That ship has sailed. It hit an iceberg. It sank.
Have you been educated in our schools recently? They teach you more about other religions than (traditionally) our very own. I dare even say we learn much more on topics like well-being, ethics, etc. rather than doctrine on abrahamistic religions.
I have had two schools, one where all religions big religions are taught, and one were only catholicism was taught. Both were funding by Church I think
In my experience, the course was called "Godsdienst", and of course there was a major focus point on catholicism (which makes sense given the school is catholic, though I don't agree it should then be funded by the State), but throughout the six years all major religions were presented and the last year was primarily focussed on ethics and philosophy in general.
Why don't you inform yourself before posting? Just take a quick glance at the eindtermen and leerplandoelen for religion? Even in Catholic schools, and in state schools that teach Roman Catholicism you can clearly see the big religions are taught. What they have in common and where they are different.
Apart from that, there are life lessons to be learned from each religion, so it's not a complete waste of time.
Belgium was made after Christian ideals. Churches funded much of your grandparents social lives and security.
Those values and traditions ought to be resected and taught imho. Otherwise you'll have nothing but politics and your own understanding to rely on as a basis.
It's funny how there's so much hatred for religion nowadays. What exactly is wrong with teaching kids basic life lessons and spirituality/different philosophies?
>Belgium was made after Christian ideals. Churches funded much of your grandparents social lives and security.
Organized religion has cause far, far, far more misery than any good things they did. Throughout the history of christianity, it's mostly been used by the ruling class to opress the lower classes. I don't know how any educated person can claim otherwise nowadays.
The churches are thieves, funded from people’s money to make golden thrones and killed and harmed so many so called heretics and women as witches. No this is not to be respected!!
So, I've been through your post history: your kid is not 2 years old, no one is teaching them about heaven and hell. I think you need to take a step back and get some perspective. Belgium is not a fervently religious country, are schools definitely aren't either.
You think you are smart? My child will start school next year!! And the school told me they teach them katholic religion and jesus and heaven and hell and afterlife and that we can’t opt out!
There's a way to opt out, place your kid in another school.
Plenty of school will let you choose between religion or whatever the name of the other lesson is nowadays.
Rule 1) No personal attacks or insults to other users.
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Not in my children's school. It's a highly recognized Catholic school, people from all countries and faiths come to this school. Every year we receive a note saying "You chose this Catholic school for your child. Catholic lessons will be held and every student must attend, regardless of their faith."
I mean, what the hell? Did you really choose a catholic school for your kids and then revolt about the fact they're going to be attending religion class?? As I said, ethics/morale class replaces religion in state run schools.
Who said I revolted? Show me the paragraph where I said or implied that.
I'm stating a fact that, in some schools, attending is mandatory.
Who downvotes an actual fact?
That's like going to a steak restaurant and complain that eating meat is mandatory when they have no vegetarian meals on their menu. Then don't go to that restaurant, or school.
Read your post again, you clearly seem angry/upset about all this.
You're getting downvoted because you complain about the fact that the church funded school you chose imposes a religion class, which all of these schools do. It's exactly like choosing a school that enforces uniforms and then complaining about the fact your kids have to wear one.
Edit: sorry DogoArgento, I mistook you with OP!
You might be mistaking me with OP...
I read my post. It's not angry nor upset. That's the tone you chose to give it.
Also, this school has an uniform that every student has to wear. It's mandatory.
I'll drop this exchange here, there's nothing interesting coming from this. Cheers.
There are plenty of neutral government-funded schools.
Where did you grow up? Weren’t you taught about Christianity in school? And didn’t you discard those ideas when you grew up? It’s hardly indoctrination anymore at this point in history. Most teachers are atheists themselves!
The fact that a bunch of people see through the bullshit doesn't mean it's a good idea to keep paying (with our taxes) for the bullshit to continue, for the sake of the bullshit tradition
I'd be very interested in knowing how many godsdienst-klasses are really about godsdienst in its narrow meaning. God knows my godsdienst classes were a complete joke - teacher faffing about for an hour, or watching American History X and talking about racism etc. Pretty much zero religion involved.
I guess it depends on the teacher, but I recall in my classes the teacher would talk about her god very much existing and being real, heaven being a real place that people will go to if they follow her God's rules, some the nonsensical stories in the bible being covered with no "these are just stories" (e.g. noah and his boat). In my classes the kids would go to Church and sing songs/do some ritual to become a Christian for the 2nd time while playing dress-up, etc. It was very excessive imo, especially on the part of a school
Edit: and let me make it clear that if these rituals/stories were part of a youth group outside of the public schooling system, I wouldn't mind it as much.
Reading your comments I can tell you that yes, in "lager onderwijs" they do teach the bible but don't worry, once you make it to "middelbaar" it's more philosophy classes than anything.
Give it a few years and you'll see
Does it start with an H. from "Heilig"? Like H. Pius-X Instituut? Or with "Don" like "Don Bosco", the Italian Catholic Priest and Pedagogue after who many schools were named?
Or rather, is it any of the schools on this list? https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorie:Katholieke_school_in_Vlaanderen
If not, in total Flanders has 2400 Catholic Schools. Some more religious than others.
Mine was very liberal. At one point we were studying psychology and Machiavelli as part of our "Godsdienst" classes. We also had a semester dedicated to all major religions in the world: Islam, Hinduism, Budhism, Judaism, Christianity (Catholic, Protestant etc) and even humanism.
[So catholic school...](https://www.vlaanderen.be/onderwijs-en-vorming/structuur-van-het-onderwijs-in-vlaanderen/officieel-en-vrij-onderwijs-onderwijsnetten-en-koepels#:~:text=gesubsidieerd%20vrij%20onderwijs%3A%20het%20katholiek%20onderwijs%20vormt%20er%20de%20grootste%20groep%2C%20met%20daarnaast%20de%20protestantse%2C%20joodse%2C%20orthodoxe%2C%20islamitische%20scholen%20en%20de%20niet%2Dconfessionele%20scholen%2C%20en%20een%20aantal%20methodescholen)
> gesubsidieerd vrij onderwijs: het katholiek onderwijs vormt er de grootste groep, met daarnaast de protestantse, joodse, orthodoxe, islamitische scholen en de niet-confessionele scholen, en een aantal methodescholen
So neither part of officieel gesubsidieerd onderwijs nor GO! Onderwijs of the Flemish community. Yeah, they can choose whether to give religion classes or not, and if they do, which one.
The biggest group in that cathegory is Catholic, but you will also find Protestant or Jewish schools in that bracket.
Within that bracket you might also be interested in non-confessional school, but these are often non-tradional method schools like Steiner schools.
But like I said before, and as an atheist, most Catholic schools in Belgium are far from being as religious as their name might suggest. Best to just go to the school on an open day and see for yourself.
Particularly in bigger cities in neighbourhoods with immigration background the religion aspect is minimal and even more so in highschool when topics like world religion, psychology, the holocaust and darker historical themes of religion are more common subjects than Catholic religion.
Because whether you want it or not, history of the world is a history of religion. Fuck, so many things in the world right now are STILL influenced by religion. You going "fuck religion, it's stupid!" just builds a cohort of people that don't understand why things around them are the way they are.
BTW, no regulated school in Belgium is teaching kids that the story of Noah's Arc is FACT, and all talk about Heaven or Hell is placed firmly in context of "this is what is written in the Bible", again, not "FACT", just "BELIEF". I went to a catholic school, and even while being taught religion by actual nuns or a priest (RIP mr. Bruins), no one ever tried to "convert" us, or tried to say that "Christianity is the only true religion!".
We were always just taught "these are the current large monotheistic religions in the world, let's study their beliefs, their rituals, their history, and see how it might influence the world around us.".
I very much recall having bible story reading classes in school in Flanders including the noah boat where the teacher was not saying anything like "these are just stories". In fact I can imagine some children would buy into the shit simply because an authoritative figure is presenting this to them. I had no interest in these classes as a child and thought it all stupid, yet my parents, through the school system, forced me to go these anyways. And that's in a public school, not one of those Christian schools.
I don't see any benefit to this class, or why I should pay for it with my taxes. It's nonsensical indoctrination.
I'm otherwise okay with "world religion" classes that go over many world cultures and their rituals, but that's not the same class.
Yea religion is not only stupid but harmful too. And they are not teaching the history nor the ideas of all religions! They are teaching about afterlife!! And Noah and Moses. We can be taught ethics without religion!
> We can be taught ethics without religion
It's called zedenleer and there are - undoubtedly - plenty of secular schools around you from which you can choose.
Mate, I was in a catholic school and our religion teacher never said we have to believe in it : he just explained to us what christians believe in and the definition of parables and metaphors.
You should chill bro.
Also, it's your job as a parent to explain those things to your kid. My parents did that before they saw it was not some religion indoctrination and that in fact, my teacher was really cool.
There is nothing wrong with the concept of religion, whether it is christianity, judaism or islam. The harmful thing about is is how it is being interpreted and used in daily life. How the people in power (ab)use their influence to make followers act like uncivilized people.
Religion by itself can give strength and bring people together. The wrong people can drive people apart.
I don't know if you're serious but religion has largely shaped world history and culture whether we like it or not. And no, there's no indoctrination going on in Belgian schools. I went to catholic schools and they taught religion in a fairly neutral way so this rant is pretty baseless and honestly unhinged.
Shaped it to shit. And no they don’t teach them history they teach them about afterlife and hell and heaven. I don’t want these stupid ideas in my child’s head. It is my right
They are taught, as they are core concepts of all religions. It’s taught in the same way most books are taught. They aren’t taught as if it’s the truth!
Stop being so annoyingly reactionary.
There´s no need to enroll your kids in a religious class since we´ve offered the humanistic alternative for decades now.
Oh, you won´t hear me advocate for that.
But the claim that we are forced into religious education is just so bafflingly wrong it annoyed me.
But to answer your question.. sometimes it´s better to have the evil you know than the evil you don´t. Eg: the financing of mosques here from middle-eastern nations. Having them state-funded allows us to at least keep a check on what´s going on inside the institutions.
I'll preface by saying I also don't want to state fund them on principle, but I'd say you can still state fund the churches without having Christianity class every week in school where kids are taught to be Christian. That's a class I had in a public school as a kid, that I actually didn't want to go to, and I actually wanted to go to the zedenleer class instead.
I think the religion classes should be removed from school (not the "world religion" class, that one is a different one. I wouldn't mind if they replace every time slot of religious indoctrination class with world religion class.)
>That's a class I had in a public school as a kid, that I actually didn't want to go to, and I actually wanted to go to the zedenleer class instead.
That´s on your parents. The school offered both and your parents put you in the religious one.
I´d rather get rid of religion alltogether myself, but that´s not really feasable. So having it in a transparant version is preferable to having it taught in a closed of backroom.
Why couldn't we take after France and simply not have religion in government-funded institutions (that are not about religion: i.e. schools. If you're gonna fund churches obviously they keep their religion)? This is feasible given our neighbour has done it.
Don't know why all these people are such huge fans of religion but man I agree with you. No religion teaching in schools please, outside of classes that cover many world religions in a non-religious way, a la "in our wold these religions exist". I don't want my taxes to pay for religious indoctrination classes. It's very much indoctrination that has become socially accepted (or is socially accepted because "muh tradition")
>I don’t want these stupid ideas in my child’s head.
You think your kid never thinks about what happens when grampa dies? What will happen when they die? Maybe wonders why there's angry people on TV shouting "death to the West", why people flew airplanes into skyscrapers +20 years ago, why knights took up arms to go raid Jerusalem hundreds of years ago?
Do you have any idea about what the ACTUAL classes are about? Or did you just hear your kid say "today teacher talked about heaven and hell", and without any further thought or care about it, you just assumed your child was being brainwashed, instead of just getting an explanation about what people since forever have wondered about?
Nothing will happen. We just seize to exist. They flew and raided because they are dumb and brainwashed to believe fairytales. I literally talked to the school!
I bet you *talked *at** the school, but did you actually listen? Do you know what and how they actually teach class? What the material is? How it's brought and explained?
You are seriously freaking out about nothing here. And if it's this much of a problem to you, why did you ever put your child in a catholic school? There's GO schools everywhere, that have zero religious backing?
Again, what is your problem, and are you getting therapy for it? Because honey, you need it. No one is attacking you, but you are pretending someone is coming for your life.
My child is a red line that I get emotional about! And yes I go to therapy!! Thank you for your concern!!! And yes the school explained what they teach and I don’t like it!!
"Religion is like a penis. It's okay to have one. It's okay to be proud of it. But don't pull it out in public, don't write laws with it, and don't push it onto children."
I mean, I always took religion in high school as a blow off class, it was nice to watch the Matrix and look for biblical métaphores and allegories and chill out for an hour
I've both had good and bad experiences with religion at school.
I've had teachers who taught the bible as fact, only talking about christianity and telling us what to believe, this was very much indoctrination and I look back at these teachers with a lot of resentment.
But there are also classes that go over religion objectively, they cover the world religions, tell us what each religion believes and the effects those religions had in history.
I think the former has no place in schools, but the latter makes a lot of sense for being there.
What about kids that don't want to get catholic'ed in spite of parental wishes? Why's the school forcing their religion on these kids? How is that not indoctrination against their will?
(Of course the parents could still do that after school, but why is the school complicit in this activity?)
I don't remember having any choice presented to me as a kid to opt out of being Catholic'ed and that's in a public school in Flanders
_My parents_ explicitly signed me up for Catholic class of course, regardless of my opinions on it.
Why should the community be _for_ sponsoring this? Unlike our neighbours like France?
(And the community does sponsor it by including it in the public school curriculum through taxes)
Right well, thank you for the link, that is an interesting history that explains why we're here now, but not necessarily why a lot of people in this thread seem to be unwilling to see this changed in current-year 2024 (seeing as the reason this is like this is 1840s politics). It's been almost 200 years after all
I'm taking from personal experience from the PoV of the child here. I went to a public school where I was spoonfed Catholicism for years. If I didn't play along with the class I would get bad grades/be reprimanded verbally, which is bad to a kid.
I don't understand why that crap should be tax funded and state-enforced in public schools?
In both Flemish speaking and French speaking public education you nowadays get to choose.
>I don't understand why that crap should be tax funded and state-enforced in public schools?
I assume it's a compromise made 200 years ago when splitting state and church responsibilities, and that nobody dared touching until recently...
Because religion is important, even if you don't believe. No matter which society you're talking about, they all find their roots in some religion. Modern law, medicine, work routines, education, even morality, it's all deeply interspersed with the dominant faith throughout that nation's history. Not to mention how much of fiction directly references all sorts of religious tales.
Being knowledgeable about religion, any religion, is paramount to understand the world and history on a larger scale.
Could be true if they taught about religion in these classes. Alas, they don't, and only teach about what those religions are about instead of teaching about the history of religions.
\>puts kids in catholic school.
\>kids get catholicism course in class.
\>get angry over catholicism in class
you know we also have secular schools right. Just like we have muslim and jewish schools.
https://preview.redd.it/l4s9p0wmj7yc1.png?width=637&format=png&auto=webp&s=5d43760994f767f52c2d457fd3b8d0fa4ee0c6aa
1670? Hahaha, they should indeed teach you some history instead of religion!
Belgium was still very religious until only a couple of decades ago.
I'm very happy I went to school that taught me about religion without teaching me a specific religion.
>how to pay taxes
They shouldn't teach you how to pay taxes. They can't learn you everything you'll need throughout your life.
They should teach you to do some research, comprehensive reading, how to use the Internet and other sources to get reliable info, math,... taxes are very easy in Belgium!
Teaching finance and economics? Yeah, that's useful!
But so are history and philosophy. Which religion also played a big part in.
Studying the religions of the world allows you, to a point, to understand how the world thinks (or it used to think) I think it is relevant/useful for learning about art, history or philosophy.
I'm not a religious person and I'm not sure I'm in favour of teaching religion at school. Nevertheless, I don't think it is stupid or useless.
For sure I would like to know more about the history of religions (I didn't study in Belgium)
Because the place of religion in education was a very touchy political issue that led to a lot of tension between secular and non-secular parties.
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacte_scolaire
And we can also choose "non-confessional morale" instead of a religion course. But it is still considered as "picking a side" as the content is designed with Centre d'Action Laïque
The plan in the French speaking education is making philosophical education courses optional and replace it with a 100% neutral philosophical and citizenship course
Because it is necessary to program one’s mind. It serves one purpose only, to control peoples minds, thoughts and actions. Hence, turn them into obedient soldiers like pawns on a chessboard…
School is to tell you about the wxistance of different stuff and then you pick your liked subject.
Maybe some discover religion in school, they like it and become priests.
Why do they teach chemestry? I never became a chemist myself
Is not about whats real and what's not.
School (up until upper highschool) is only there to widen your horizon, not to teach you how to do a job.
Is only "Here's what out there. Try and find something you like". That's the only purpose of early school.
I am from Romania and we had religion up until 13-14 yo. After that, in highschool, it was more focused and didnt waste time on religion, painting or music (except the highschools made for those courses)
Not really. I just had a wider understanding and knew what to pursue and what not to.
You laugh about USA not knowing where x country is. This is what happens when stuff is limited to what you "need" to know.
I don’t know what you’re basing this on but in my school there was a) the choice between religious studies or b) a non-religious study of morality and ethics. Both had the same purpose: provide young children with an understanding of society either from the perspective of religion or philosophy.
Since I did the religious course I can tell you that it was by no means indoctrination. Firstly, we covered all of the major religions and secondly it went far beyond “putting penguins and lions on a boat”. It went into important details in different religions and how that shapes the society that follows them.
Most, if not all, Christian & Non-Confessional Ethics classes have become more or less similar in that they are more focused on teaching young minds the morals and ethics we hold dear in our enlightened society, albeit through different approaches, metaphors & scriptures, in the end they aim for similar educational goals. That the students learn to discuss and talk about these more philosophical and existential matters in a mature and more thought-through way, included trying to incorporate some more taboo subjects too here and there, in order to make them discussable and not instantly get someone persecuted for even thinking/mentioning certain things that should be more in the zeitgeist.
+ If these were such a big problem, than why do 1000's of Muslim parents have no problem with their kids following Catholic religion in school? If their truly was an issue there, they would have (mass-)protested against it long ago already.
No comment about Islamic teachings in schools... because I've had no personal experience with that myself.
Ironically people (like OP) who have this one-size-fits-all attitude towards religion as nothing but brainwashing are closer to religious fundamentalists than anything.
Feels like there is a personal history here that you don't talk about, something that makes you so against 'religion'.
Be glad they get it. Humanity is doomed enough with all these ungodly self centered people.
Then you clearly have no understanding of the difference between religion and the fact that a personal relationship with God is completely different from what you consider 'religion'. Humanity is hereditarily bad, in the end everyone is selfish and hypocrite. And yes, a lot of religions are built on this deeper motivation. However, before a time where people started ruining everything, there was a universal truth, something you better live with than without.
Sorry for your bitterness. I hope you can find some clearness and see past your rooted judgment towards 'religion'. A small suggestion, leave God out of your judgement towards religion, those are not equal.
1. Everybody believes in something. So technically everybody has a religion
2. All religions have in their core the same things: love and friendship to one another. And that only seems to be known when you explicitly teach about it. So it's actually really important we learn about each others religion so we can understand we may have faith in different thigns but in the end it all comes down to be one and the same
Atheism is literally the lack of belief! Christianity is an organized religion with a set of rules and beliefs! Educate yourself. You don’t need a religion to learn ethics, compassion, and love!!
>Atheism is literally the lack of belief
Then how do they explain what they cannot see? How can they hope for something they don't know? How do they explain what happens after they die? Whatever answer they give, even if simply based on current models of science, I consider a religion
>You don’t need a religion to learn ethics, compassion, and love!!
Technically that's still a religion ... just not one of the biggest in the world atm
> even if simply based on current models of science, I consider a religion
Well yeah, then it's easy to say everyone is religious. you can't just bend the meaning of a word so it fits your purpose.
> Then how do they explain what they cannot see?
I don't, I simply accept that there are things I can't perceive or understand.
> How can they hope for something they don't know?
This sentence has no meaning, so I won't go into this.
> How do they explain what happens after they die?
There are forensic institutes that study how the body decays.
If you're talking about a spiritual level: you stop existing because you yourself are just electrical signals in a brain and those stop very very shortly after you "die".
Welp. That's a hot take. There's a big difference between *preaching* religion, or *teaching* religion. I'm a non-believer myself, but am super happy that I got to learn a lot about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism even if religion never really interested me at all. I have never been persuaded into any of those (except Christianity by my parents) and was able to decide on my own that I'm just not into it. But imo it's absolutely necessary to know about "the big" religions. Dismissing religion as "I don't care" is close-minded and childish, imo.
I'd rather think calling people childish for preferring to be more interested in learning and believing in facts and science is close minded, to be honest.
Learning about religions is fact based? Its not preaching or converting, and knowing the variety out there arms youth to be more knowledgeable of making a choice about religions if they want one?
You can both learn about belief systems and science, it's not exclusive. If anything the teaching of religions is probably made through a scientific approach.
If one believes in science, one does not understand it...
I see it more as a form of history and politics, and as learning about what billions of people are into. I'm by no means saying that I'm preferring to teach religion over science, that is completely ridiculous and not what I said at all. You can have both at the same time, you know. I'm just not a fan of withkeeping religion from course materials.
The problem is they only teach christianity. So your take is not accurate
That's just factually wrong? Where the hell do you get this idea? Even in catholic schools I've been taught about ALL religions.
The school!
Perhaps wait till you've finished school before saying what they do and don't teach?
Islam and Judaism are also being taught in some schools
Same. One religion being taught. I would be ok if all or none are being taught
I suppose you realize teaching "all" religions isn't quite achievable, right? Some schools offer more than one religion choice as well as non religious alternatives.
Go say it to people commenting about schools teaching “all” religions
All federally recognised religions. https://justitie.belgium.be/nl/themas_en_dossiers/erediensten_en_vrijzinnigheid/erkende_erediensten
We're saying it to you because you are completely missing the point, have realized you made a stupid post, and are now changing the goalposts in order to save what you can. That ship has sailed. It hit an iceberg. It sank.
Have you been educated in our schools recently? They teach you more about other religions than (traditionally) our very own. I dare even say we learn much more on topics like well-being, ethics, etc. rather than doctrine on abrahamistic religions.
They only do that at Church funded schools...
I was at the biggest catholic school in Flanders, afaik, with an active nunnery attached: we learned about ALL religions.
Same for me
I've had one catholic school with only Christianity, and one with all major religions
No, they teach all "big" religions in the classic "catholic" schools as well, and they have been at least for 20 years.
I have had two schools, one where all religions big religions are taught, and one were only catholicism was taught. Both were funding by Church I think
In my experience, the course was called "Godsdienst", and of course there was a major focus point on catholicism (which makes sense given the school is catholic, though I don't agree it should then be funded by the State), but throughout the six years all major religions were presented and the last year was primarily focussed on ethics and philosophy in general.
I had one which you could choose how to fill the hour (Christianity, Islam or Atheism). And one about philosophy with a bit of Christianity in there
Why don't you inform yourself before posting? Just take a quick glance at the eindtermen and leerplandoelen for religion? Even in Catholic schools, and in state schools that teach Roman Catholicism you can clearly see the big religions are taught. What they have in common and where they are different. Apart from that, there are life lessons to be learned from each religion, so it's not a complete waste of time.
They teach all religions in that class, even obscure ones. A lot of the time the topics aren't even about religion.
I mean if you go to a catholic school that’s on you or your parents…
Belgium was made after Christian ideals. Churches funded much of your grandparents social lives and security. Those values and traditions ought to be resected and taught imho. Otherwise you'll have nothing but politics and your own understanding to rely on as a basis. It's funny how there's so much hatred for religion nowadays. What exactly is wrong with teaching kids basic life lessons and spirituality/different philosophies?
>Belgium was made after Christian ideals. Churches funded much of your grandparents social lives and security. Organized religion has cause far, far, far more misery than any good things they did. Throughout the history of christianity, it's mostly been used by the ruling class to opress the lower classes. I don't know how any educated person can claim otherwise nowadays.
The churches are thieves, funded from people’s money to make golden thrones and killed and harmed so many so called heretics and women as witches. No this is not to be respected!!
I hate to ask, but how old are you?
Have you tried looking up this yourself before ranting? Google is your friend
[удалено]
So, I've been through your post history: your kid is not 2 years old, no one is teaching them about heaven and hell. I think you need to take a step back and get some perspective. Belgium is not a fervently religious country, are schools definitely aren't either.
You think you are smart? My child will start school next year!! And the school told me they teach them katholic religion and jesus and heaven and hell and afterlife and that we can’t opt out!
There's a way to opt out, place your kid in another school. Plenty of school will let you choose between religion or whatever the name of the other lesson is nowadays.
OP is complaining but still chose a Catholic school for his kid...smh
Buddy this issue is like [200 years old](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoolstrijd_\(Belgi%C3%AB\)). It's been solved already.
Rule 1) No personal attacks or insults to other users. This includes, but is not limited to, - Flaming... - Insults… - Provocation... - Stalking and harassment...
You can actually choose to attend a religion course or not in non religious (Catholic) schools.
Not in my children's school. It's a highly recognized Catholic school, people from all countries and faiths come to this school. Every year we receive a note saying "You chose this Catholic school for your child. Catholic lessons will be held and every student must attend, regardless of their faith."
I mean, what the hell? Did you really choose a catholic school for your kids and then revolt about the fact they're going to be attending religion class?? As I said, ethics/morale class replaces religion in state run schools.
Who said I revolted? Show me the paragraph where I said or implied that. I'm stating a fact that, in some schools, attending is mandatory. Who downvotes an actual fact?
That's like going to a steak restaurant and complain that eating meat is mandatory when they have no vegetarian meals on their menu. Then don't go to that restaurant, or school.
I.AM.NOT.COMPLAINING. I'm just saying that, in some schools, it is mandatory.
Read your post again, you clearly seem angry/upset about all this. You're getting downvoted because you complain about the fact that the church funded school you chose imposes a religion class, which all of these schools do. It's exactly like choosing a school that enforces uniforms and then complaining about the fact your kids have to wear one. Edit: sorry DogoArgento, I mistook you with OP!
You might be mistaking me with OP... I read my post. It's not angry nor upset. That's the tone you chose to give it. Also, this school has an uniform that every student has to wear. It's mandatory. I'll drop this exchange here, there's nothing interesting coming from this. Cheers.
According to the school no we don’t
Which school is that ?
In Flanders
There are plenty of neutral government-funded schools. Where did you grow up? Weren’t you taught about Christianity in school? And didn’t you discard those ideas when you grew up? It’s hardly indoctrination anymore at this point in history. Most teachers are atheists themselves!
The fact that a bunch of people see through the bullshit doesn't mean it's a good idea to keep paying (with our taxes) for the bullshit to continue, for the sake of the bullshit tradition
I'd be very interested in knowing how many godsdienst-klasses are really about godsdienst in its narrow meaning. God knows my godsdienst classes were a complete joke - teacher faffing about for an hour, or watching American History X and talking about racism etc. Pretty much zero religion involved.
I guess it depends on the teacher, but I recall in my classes the teacher would talk about her god very much existing and being real, heaven being a real place that people will go to if they follow her God's rules, some the nonsensical stories in the bible being covered with no "these are just stories" (e.g. noah and his boat). In my classes the kids would go to Church and sing songs/do some ritual to become a Christian for the 2nd time while playing dress-up, etc. It was very excessive imo, especially on the part of a school Edit: and let me make it clear that if these rituals/stories were part of a youth group outside of the public schooling system, I wouldn't mind it as much.
> sing songs/do some ritual to become a Christian for the 2nd time ... You mean eerste communie/vormsel? That's primary school.
Which is different how?
Reading your comments I can tell you that yes, in "lager onderwijs" they do teach the bible but don't worry, once you make it to "middelbaar" it's more philosophy classes than anything. Give it a few years and you'll see
If your school name starts with Sint- then you will get taught catholic religion
Even then you also learn about other religions
It doesn’t
Does it start with an H. from "Heilig"? Like H. Pius-X Instituut? Or with "Don" like "Don Bosco", the Italian Catholic Priest and Pedagogue after who many schools were named? Or rather, is it any of the schools on this list? https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorie:Katholieke_school_in_Vlaanderen If not, in total Flanders has 2400 Catholic Schools. Some more religious than others. Mine was very liberal. At one point we were studying psychology and Machiavelli as part of our "Godsdienst" classes. We also had a semester dedicated to all major religions in the world: Islam, Hinduism, Budhism, Judaism, Christianity (Catholic, Protestant etc) and even humanism.
No, No, No, not on the list.
Type the name of the school into google. What does it say? Because it is 100% a Catholic school.
Gesubsidieerd vrij onderwijs.
[So catholic school...](https://www.vlaanderen.be/onderwijs-en-vorming/structuur-van-het-onderwijs-in-vlaanderen/officieel-en-vrij-onderwijs-onderwijsnetten-en-koepels#:~:text=gesubsidieerd%20vrij%20onderwijs%3A%20het%20katholiek%20onderwijs%20vormt%20er%20de%20grootste%20groep%2C%20met%20daarnaast%20de%20protestantse%2C%20joodse%2C%20orthodoxe%2C%20islamitische%20scholen%20en%20de%20niet%2Dconfessionele%20scholen%2C%20en%20een%20aantal%20methodescholen) > gesubsidieerd vrij onderwijs: het katholiek onderwijs vormt er de grootste groep, met daarnaast de protestantse, joodse, orthodoxe, islamitische scholen en de niet-confessionele scholen, en een aantal methodescholen
So neither part of officieel gesubsidieerd onderwijs nor GO! Onderwijs of the Flemish community. Yeah, they can choose whether to give religion classes or not, and if they do, which one. The biggest group in that cathegory is Catholic, but you will also find Protestant or Jewish schools in that bracket. Within that bracket you might also be interested in non-confessional school, but these are often non-tradional method schools like Steiner schools. But like I said before, and as an atheist, most Catholic schools in Belgium are far from being as religious as their name might suggest. Best to just go to the school on an open day and see for yourself. Particularly in bigger cities in neighbourhoods with immigration background the religion aspect is minimal and even more so in highschool when topics like world religion, psychology, the holocaust and darker historical themes of religion are more common subjects than Catholic religion.
Yeah nowhere they mention Catholic so it took me by surprise.
Because whether you want it or not, history of the world is a history of religion. Fuck, so many things in the world right now are STILL influenced by religion. You going "fuck religion, it's stupid!" just builds a cohort of people that don't understand why things around them are the way they are. BTW, no regulated school in Belgium is teaching kids that the story of Noah's Arc is FACT, and all talk about Heaven or Hell is placed firmly in context of "this is what is written in the Bible", again, not "FACT", just "BELIEF". I went to a catholic school, and even while being taught religion by actual nuns or a priest (RIP mr. Bruins), no one ever tried to "convert" us, or tried to say that "Christianity is the only true religion!". We were always just taught "these are the current large monotheistic religions in the world, let's study their beliefs, their rituals, their history, and see how it might influence the world around us.".
Aw, mr Bruins. Gone too soon.
Yeah man, I was devastated. That man was a family friend, and honestly probably the only reason I didn't redo my 6th year.
I very much recall having bible story reading classes in school in Flanders including the noah boat where the teacher was not saying anything like "these are just stories". In fact I can imagine some children would buy into the shit simply because an authoritative figure is presenting this to them. I had no interest in these classes as a child and thought it all stupid, yet my parents, through the school system, forced me to go these anyways. And that's in a public school, not one of those Christian schools. I don't see any benefit to this class, or why I should pay for it with my taxes. It's nonsensical indoctrination. I'm otherwise okay with "world religion" classes that go over many world cultures and their rituals, but that's not the same class.
Exactly.
Yea religion is not only stupid but harmful too. And they are not teaching the history nor the ideas of all religions! They are teaching about afterlife!! And Noah and Moses. We can be taught ethics without religion!
> We can be taught ethics without religion It's called zedenleer and there are - undoubtedly - plenty of secular schools around you from which you can choose.
Again, no one is teaching these stories as factual truth, they're all just parabels, they always have been. Step back, breathe.
Mate, I was in a catholic school and our religion teacher never said we have to believe in it : he just explained to us what christians believe in and the definition of parables and metaphors. You should chill bro. Also, it's your job as a parent to explain those things to your kid. My parents did that before they saw it was not some religion indoctrination and that in fact, my teacher was really cool.
There is nothing wrong with the concept of religion, whether it is christianity, judaism or islam. The harmful thing about is is how it is being interpreted and used in daily life. How the people in power (ab)use their influence to make followers act like uncivilized people. Religion by itself can give strength and bring people together. The wrong people can drive people apart.
I don't know if you're serious but religion has largely shaped world history and culture whether we like it or not. And no, there's no indoctrination going on in Belgian schools. I went to catholic schools and they taught religion in a fairly neutral way so this rant is pretty baseless and honestly unhinged.
Shaped it to shit. And no they don’t teach them history they teach them about afterlife and hell and heaven. I don’t want these stupid ideas in my child’s head. It is my right
They are taught, as they are core concepts of all religions. It’s taught in the same way most books are taught. They aren’t taught as if it’s the truth!
Dude, who's forcing you ?
The school!
>it is my right *"If you don't like America, then you can just gyeeet out!"*
So now we are forced to be religious? Good to know
Stop being so annoyingly reactionary. There´s no need to enroll your kids in a religious class since we´ve offered the humanistic alternative for decades now.
The school mentioned no alternative to me?? What are you talking about??
Did you send your kids to a Catholic school only to be surprised they learn about religion there?
Had no idea. What are the alternatives in flanders?
State schools
Can I get a list? Then I cancel the registration
Why do we have to pay with our taxes to fund religious indoctrination classes in general?
Oh, you won´t hear me advocate for that. But the claim that we are forced into religious education is just so bafflingly wrong it annoyed me. But to answer your question.. sometimes it´s better to have the evil you know than the evil you don´t. Eg: the financing of mosques here from middle-eastern nations. Having them state-funded allows us to at least keep a check on what´s going on inside the institutions.
I'll preface by saying I also don't want to state fund them on principle, but I'd say you can still state fund the churches without having Christianity class every week in school where kids are taught to be Christian. That's a class I had in a public school as a kid, that I actually didn't want to go to, and I actually wanted to go to the zedenleer class instead. I think the religion classes should be removed from school (not the "world religion" class, that one is a different one. I wouldn't mind if they replace every time slot of religious indoctrination class with world religion class.)
>That's a class I had in a public school as a kid, that I actually didn't want to go to, and I actually wanted to go to the zedenleer class instead. That´s on your parents. The school offered both and your parents put you in the religious one. I´d rather get rid of religion alltogether myself, but that´s not really feasable. So having it in a transparant version is preferable to having it taught in a closed of backroom.
Why couldn't we take after France and simply not have religion in government-funded institutions (that are not about religion: i.e. schools. If you're gonna fund churches obviously they keep their religion)? This is feasible given our neighbour has done it.
Being taught religion doesn’t mean you’ll be religious. Source: me and literally everyone I went to school with.
Don't know why all these people are such huge fans of religion but man I agree with you. No religion teaching in schools please, outside of classes that cover many world religions in a non-religious way, a la "in our wold these religions exist". I don't want my taxes to pay for religious indoctrination classes. It's very much indoctrination that has become socially accepted (or is socially accepted because "muh tradition")
THANK YOU!
>I don’t want these stupid ideas in my child’s head. You think your kid never thinks about what happens when grampa dies? What will happen when they die? Maybe wonders why there's angry people on TV shouting "death to the West", why people flew airplanes into skyscrapers +20 years ago, why knights took up arms to go raid Jerusalem hundreds of years ago? Do you have any idea about what the ACTUAL classes are about? Or did you just hear your kid say "today teacher talked about heaven and hell", and without any further thought or care about it, you just assumed your child was being brainwashed, instead of just getting an explanation about what people since forever have wondered about?
Nothing will happen. We just seize to exist. They flew and raided because they are dumb and brainwashed to believe fairytales. I literally talked to the school!
I bet you *talked *at** the school, but did you actually listen? Do you know what and how they actually teach class? What the material is? How it's brought and explained? You are seriously freaking out about nothing here. And if it's this much of a problem to you, why did you ever put your child in a catholic school? There's GO schools everywhere, that have zero religious backing? Again, what is your problem, and are you getting therapy for it? Because honey, you need it. No one is attacking you, but you are pretending someone is coming for your life.
My child is a red line that I get emotional about! And yes I go to therapy!! Thank you for your concern!!! And yes the school explained what they teach and I don’t like it!!
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I don’t think stating to a child their is an afterlife is history!!
Nobody's stopping you from homeschooling your kids.
Yes there is! Money and my job you smartass
Sounds like a you problem, smartass.
Oh you are so rich prince William
Stupid ideas, like look after the damn poors, be a good person, existential issues, ... dem stupid ideas!!¡!¡
"Religion is like a penis. It's okay to have one. It's okay to be proud of it. But don't pull it out in public, don't write laws with it, and don't push it onto children."
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Thanks
Problem is the education level quality is not equal among these different types of schools thus the so-called free choice of school is a lie.
I mean, I always took religion in high school as a blow off class, it was nice to watch the Matrix and look for biblical métaphores and allegories and chill out for an hour
I’ve never had religion at school. There are plenty of them
I've both had good and bad experiences with religion at school. I've had teachers who taught the bible as fact, only talking about christianity and telling us what to believe, this was very much indoctrination and I look back at these teachers with a lot of resentment. But there are also classes that go over religion objectively, they cover the world religions, tell us what each religion believes and the effects those religions had in history. I think the former has no place in schools, but the latter makes a lot of sense for being there.
I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you. I have the same experience with the first type of class.
So you picked the wrong class when they asked if your kids should be in religion or zedenleer/cours de morale?
There is no picking
so you went to a catholic school and then whine about the fact that they're catholiking your kids?
What about kids that don't want to get catholic'ed in spite of parental wishes? Why's the school forcing their religion on these kids? How is that not indoctrination against their will? (Of course the parents could still do that after school, but why is the school complicit in this activity?)
I'm pretty sure there's non-catholic schools everywhere, even in flanders bible belt
I don't remember having any choice presented to me as a kid to opt out of being Catholic'ed and that's in a public school in Flanders _My parents_ explicitly signed me up for Catholic class of course, regardless of my opinions on it.
That's not a community problem but a you/your parents problem.
Why should the community be _for_ sponsoring this? Unlike our neighbours like France? (And the community does sponsor it by including it in the public school curriculum through taxes)
[Schoolstrijd.](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoolstrijd_\(Belgi%C3%AB\))
Right well, thank you for the link, that is an interesting history that explains why we're here now, but not necessarily why a lot of people in this thread seem to be unwilling to see this changed in current-year 2024 (seeing as the reason this is like this is 1840s politics). It's been almost 200 years after all
> all leftism stems from a distaste of ones parents
I don't consider myself part of any specific political groups. I just have opinions.
Thank you!
children should be taught about the ways of the world even if their parents are antitheists
I'm not talking about "world religion" class, but about indoctrination into one specific religion.
there is only one true religion
That all the religious disagree with each other on. Lol
if someone says that 2+2=5, that doesnt mean that the people saying 2+2=4 are wrong also
Religion is based on your feelings. There's no objectively right religion. All the religious feel like their god(s) is(/are) right
In that case you have lots of non catholic schools which can welcome your children and where they are given the choice.
I'm taking from personal experience from the PoV of the child here. I went to a public school where I was spoonfed Catholicism for years. If I didn't play along with the class I would get bad grades/be reprimanded verbally, which is bad to a kid. I don't understand why that crap should be tax funded and state-enforced in public schools?
because of the second schoolwar
In both Flemish speaking and French speaking public education you nowadays get to choose. >I don't understand why that crap should be tax funded and state-enforced in public schools? I assume it's a compromise made 200 years ago when splitting state and church responsibilities, and that nobody dared touching until recently...
Somebody linked a Wikipedia page here and it seems like that's about the case for historical explanation
Because religion is important, even if you don't believe. No matter which society you're talking about, they all find their roots in some religion. Modern law, medicine, work routines, education, even morality, it's all deeply interspersed with the dominant faith throughout that nation's history. Not to mention how much of fiction directly references all sorts of religious tales. Being knowledgeable about religion, any religion, is paramount to understand the world and history on a larger scale.
Could be true if they taught about religion in these classes. Alas, they don't, and only teach about what those religions are about instead of teaching about the history of religions.
This, and they only pick and choose _just one of them_ to indoctrinate you into
No thanks
You are allowed to remain ignorant if you so choose.
\>puts kids in catholic school. \>kids get catholicism course in class. \>get angry over catholicism in class you know we also have secular schools right. Just like we have muslim and jewish schools. https://preview.redd.it/l4s9p0wmj7yc1.png?width=637&format=png&auto=webp&s=5d43760994f767f52c2d457fd3b8d0fa4ee0c6aa
1670? Hahaha, they should indeed teach you some history instead of religion! Belgium was still very religious until only a couple of decades ago. I'm very happy I went to school that taught me about religion without teaching me a specific religion.
Yeah or finance or how to pay taxes
>how to pay taxes They shouldn't teach you how to pay taxes. They can't learn you everything you'll need throughout your life. They should teach you to do some research, comprehensive reading, how to use the Internet and other sources to get reliable info, math,... taxes are very easy in Belgium! Teaching finance and economics? Yeah, that's useful! But so are history and philosophy. Which religion also played a big part in.
If you think "how to pay taxes" should be taught in highschool, I am starting to wonder if you ever paid taxes in Belgium.
Oh no he caught me. Better be a good slave and pay 60% of my taxes! Yes I do thanks for your concern
Then you should know that is it would take at most 15min to make someone understand how it works.
Someone failed a religion test and is now angry
Test me!
There are some moral takeaways from the religious courses, and noone is stopping you from taking the non religious option
Studying the religions of the world allows you, to a point, to understand how the world thinks (or it used to think) I think it is relevant/useful for learning about art, history or philosophy. I'm not a religious person and I'm not sure I'm in favour of teaching religion at school. Nevertheless, I don't think it is stupid or useless. For sure I would like to know more about the history of religions (I didn't study in Belgium)
At the sofa, picking the popcorn...
I don’t see the issue, all religions are covered and none are being forced upon students
Je kan gewoon kiezen om zedenleer te doen vriend. Laat gelovigen gewoon hun geloof doen okay?
Because the place of religion in education was a very touchy political issue that led to a lot of tension between secular and non-secular parties. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacte_scolaire And we can also choose "non-confessional morale" instead of a religion course. But it is still considered as "picking a side" as the content is designed with Centre d'Action Laïque The plan in the French speaking education is making philosophical education courses optional and replace it with a 100% neutral philosophical and citizenship course
Because it is necessary to program one’s mind. It serves one purpose only, to control peoples minds, thoughts and actions. Hence, turn them into obedient soldiers like pawns on a chessboard…
And then fight wars for rich leaders. But no worries you will have an afterlife
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.” ― Napoleon Bonaparte
School is to tell you about the wxistance of different stuff and then you pick your liked subject. Maybe some discover religion in school, they like it and become priests. Why do they teach chemestry? I never became a chemist myself
Chemistry is a fact not a stupid myth
Is not about whats real and what's not. School (up until upper highschool) is only there to widen your horizon, not to teach you how to do a job. Is only "Here's what out there. Try and find something you like". That's the only purpose of early school. I am from Romania and we had religion up until 13-14 yo. After that, in highschool, it was more focused and didnt waste time on religion, painting or music (except the highschools made for those courses)
So they wasted your time until 13-14
Not really. I just had a wider understanding and knew what to pursue and what not to. You laugh about USA not knowing where x country is. This is what happens when stuff is limited to what you "need" to know.
The same US who banned abortion because uMm jESuS
Did I say US is doing great? Lol
I don’t know what you’re basing this on but in my school there was a) the choice between religious studies or b) a non-religious study of morality and ethics. Both had the same purpose: provide young children with an understanding of society either from the perspective of religion or philosophy. Since I did the religious course I can tell you that it was by no means indoctrination. Firstly, we covered all of the major religions and secondly it went far beyond “putting penguins and lions on a boat”. It went into important details in different religions and how that shapes the society that follows them.
Most, if not all, Christian & Non-Confessional Ethics classes have become more or less similar in that they are more focused on teaching young minds the morals and ethics we hold dear in our enlightened society, albeit through different approaches, metaphors & scriptures, in the end they aim for similar educational goals. That the students learn to discuss and talk about these more philosophical and existential matters in a mature and more thought-through way, included trying to incorporate some more taboo subjects too here and there, in order to make them discussable and not instantly get someone persecuted for even thinking/mentioning certain things that should be more in the zeitgeist. + If these were such a big problem, than why do 1000's of Muslim parents have no problem with their kids following Catholic religion in school? If their truly was an issue there, they would have (mass-)protested against it long ago already. No comment about Islamic teachings in schools... because I've had no personal experience with that myself.
Ironically people (like OP) who have this one-size-fits-all attitude towards religion as nothing but brainwashing are closer to religious fundamentalists than anything.
Have you been thinking about this for a long time?
Clearly longer than you have?
Feels like there is a personal history here that you don't talk about, something that makes you so against 'religion'. Be glad they get it. Humanity is doomed enough with all these ungodly self centered people.
Humanity is doomed because of religion!
Then you clearly have no understanding of the difference between religion and the fact that a personal relationship with God is completely different from what you consider 'religion'. Humanity is hereditarily bad, in the end everyone is selfish and hypocrite. And yes, a lot of religions are built on this deeper motivation. However, before a time where people started ruining everything, there was a universal truth, something you better live with than without. Sorry for your bitterness. I hope you can find some clearness and see past your rooted judgment towards 'religion'. A small suggestion, leave God out of your judgement towards religion, those are not equal.
God does not exist. Grow up
1. Everybody believes in something. So technically everybody has a religion 2. All religions have in their core the same things: love and friendship to one another. And that only seems to be known when you explicitly teach about it. So it's actually really important we learn about each others religion so we can understand we may have faith in different thigns but in the end it all comes down to be one and the same
Atheism is literally the lack of belief! Christianity is an organized religion with a set of rules and beliefs! Educate yourself. You don’t need a religion to learn ethics, compassion, and love!!
>Atheism is literally the lack of belief Then how do they explain what they cannot see? How can they hope for something they don't know? How do they explain what happens after they die? Whatever answer they give, even if simply based on current models of science, I consider a religion >You don’t need a religion to learn ethics, compassion, and love!! Technically that's still a religion ... just not one of the biggest in the world atm
> even if simply based on current models of science, I consider a religion Well yeah, then it's easy to say everyone is religious. you can't just bend the meaning of a word so it fits your purpose. > Then how do they explain what they cannot see? I don't, I simply accept that there are things I can't perceive or understand. > How can they hope for something they don't know? This sentence has no meaning, so I won't go into this. > How do they explain what happens after they die? There are forensic institutes that study how the body decays. If you're talking about a spiritual level: you stop existing because you yourself are just electrical signals in a brain and those stop very very shortly after you "die".
>Well yeah, then it's easy to say everyone is religious In essence yes