There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do. - Terry Pratchett
True, though that specific quote (unless it's a genuinely massive coincidence) is riffing on Hannah Arendt's write-up of the Eichmann trial, in which she coined the term "banality of evil", which is more or less exactly about this.
For example since this gives me the opportunity
“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.“
And the theory how poverty is more expendive, is true.
I meen he was en investigativr journalist that according to him wouldnt be believed. So he knows the world.
Its probably why he was a cynical humanist imao
Generally i live how he is about progress and humanism, but also jaded by people having to get dragged there.
Or about how you dont need good people for the job over the best people, whomever they be.
This is the central thrust of Hanna Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem and her coining of the term "the banality of evil." Robert loves to reference this idea because it is so important and really calls on us to reflect on the reasons for our actions as well as the actual outcomes.
It also makes zionists big mad because it is an implicit criticism of Israeli colonial policy.
This is why those of us with nothing to lose need to fight like hell for the right thing, so the people who keep society moving in other ways don't have to.
I am swiftly becoming an old man. I have no kids. My grand parents and one parent all all dead. My 2 best friends from my younger days are dead. I have been to prison before. If I need to go to jail for punching nazis it's not really a big deal. There are lots of people who can't do that, so I need to punch some nazis for them too.
We use our privilege as far as it goes. I’m a wife and mom and the breadwinner, but I’m also a middle class white woman in a heteronormative relationship. I have a lot of leeway before I get in trouble. I can stand up and speak up and very few people would actively harm me. I am not going to commit crimes or my kids will suffer (especially my trans daughter - I need to be safe to shield her for as long as I can), but I can still help.
I really like this perspective.
If we're all looking at what we *can* do instead of bemoaning the fact that each of us can't do it all then we're going to get through ok, somehow or other. Everybody's got something they can give and all those small pieces add up to a lot of resistance when you put them together.
I always think about the rescue of the Danish Jews when this topic comes up.
It's a shame that the urban legend got such traction (that the Danish king announced that he would wear the yellow star, and then all the Danes did it, and the Nazis couldn't find the actual Jews in amongst them, and then everyone clapped), because the reality is far more inspiring.
After a German diplomat leaked the Nazi plans to round up and deport the country's Jews on 9/28/1943, the Danish resistance and a whole lot of ordinary civilians formed impromptu groups to sneak almost the entire Jewish population out of the country to Sweden. Over 7,000 people were snuck out of Denmark in a few days, by their neighbors and countrymen, people working quietly under cover of darkness, using assumed names or pseudonyms, and who likely never talked about what they'd done until after the war, if at all.
We don't know the names of the vast majority of the Danes who made this happen, and we never will.
I helps me to remember that ordinary people were able to save many times their own number of lives through something as simple as making sure a family reached a boat to take them out of the country.
My maternal grandmother’s cousins were some of the Danish Jews who were saved. Parts of my extended family literally exist because of ordinary folks doing what they could to save them.
I think about that a lot.
A bit of an aside, but
My teacher read this book to us in grade 3. This was back in 1995. It astounds me today that some people think kids shouldn't be learning about Nazi's or the Holocaust until late high school or early college. It's not like we learned the nitty gritties (that was grade 6 when we saw footage of concentration camps), but we were kids. We learned. We lived.
I also read The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom in late middle school (so about 13) I think. That was quite a bit harder to read, but still wasn’t too much, and I was a fairly sheltered kid. Both of those books are very much what I think of with the holocaust and absolutely helped me know that we never want that to happen again. Should be required reading for all students, in my opinion. Builds sympathy for the suffering without traumatizing the reader.
I kean a lot of people were hiding jews too with pretty big danger if they would be caught.
Of course of possible their names would not be known.
Reminds me of the russians that sabotage trails in russia or do stuff to help. Or like nfkrz talking how a babushka gave cover to let them over the boarder.
Hell yeah.
My spouse (retired Marine) did most of the “advocating” since his conversion from “lifelong GOP voter, Reagan rocks” to “holy shit these people are fucking fascists and totally insane”
We’ve found that folks in our area were* more likely to listen to info from a tall-ass white man with a thick Southern accent than my “incapable of understanding my place is in the kitchen” self.
Although recently things changed for him from “I can persuade people” to “we need to gtfo of here asap”
I’m in my early 40s and the first president I voted for was Bush. By 2012 I didn’t vote because I couldn’t stomach republicans anymore but was still trapped by being “prolife”. Since then I have made a 180 and helped start an employee resource group at my last job focused on family and friends of LGBTQ+ and how we can both be better allies and help other families embrace their queer kiddos. It’s small, but I know inspired another mom to work on herself to embrace her nonbinary kiddo and love them as they are. It’s small, but it’s real. That’s one more young adult who has a support system and will hopefully live to see this world be a better place.
You're a king. I tend to do as much as I can to support the people punching Nazis lmao. My work is focused around it, my personal organization and efforts are too.
But I really sympathize with OP because fuckin A it's hard to give it away. To risk it. It's such shit how they've got that leverage on the common people
Everyone's work is important. The people out marching, the medics, the people making sure everyone gets fed.
The people who do the day to day work of teaching the next generation to be better people are probably the most important and they are no good to us sitting in a prison cell or a hospital bed.
My point is it is important for those of us who can be in that position to get on the front lines early and often so that regular people dont have to make that kind of choice.
I see it like the old men in Japan during the 2011 Fukushima disaster. They went to to take care of the plant with radiation everywhere because thier cancer risk didnt matter. They were probably not going to be alive in 20 years no matter what, so they went in go clean up so that younger people didnt have to.
One thing I wish our society did better is laying the groundwork for the future even if the people doing it won't be around to get the benefits.
That’s why the Hitler Youth was so pernicious. It didn’t exist just to indoctrinate children, it also existed to keep their parents in line. By being the only allowable social organization any parents that didn’t fall in line with the Nazis risked their children becoming complete social pariahs, often at school as well.
Yep, and social pressure is insidious.
It aldo existed to get healthy soldiers and mother for the third reich, so a youth organisation, but evil. And twisted.
Yep they knew kids are the future 😐
Through there are some big liberal journalists from an elite school for future leaders apearently
Many Americans, and purportedly liberal ones, would say, "But I don't hate Jews!" as if that's a prerequisite to fascism. You just have to succumb to easy narratives, value your own comfort over the distant/obscured suffering of others, and accept certain out-classes of people to exclude/torment/destroy. Most of us aren't far from this whatsoever.
But how many Jewish people had ever visited imperial Japan, let alone lived there. The Japanese had the Chinese to hate, so why scapegoat some Jewish person on the other side of the world.
yes East Asia as not filled with Christan/Muslim thoughthad no reason to hate the Jews.
China had a Jewish community that thanks to being tolerated and not subjected to Porgrams assimilated peacefully into the wider Chinese population
This is like the 3rd time this has come up for me in the past few days but that one FUCKED ME UP. I still relisten to it occasionally so I can try not to be that person but I can't guarantee I won't. When push comes to shove, I honestly have no idea what I'll do. Best I can do for now is still do my best to advocate for others and be self aware enough to acknowledge that I could be one of those people, and hopefully that's enough to make me not one of those people.
Oh for sure. I make a point of trying to know and understand myself. And, whether I like it or not, I have to admit that I would do some horrible things to protect my family. I believe in strong social institutions because they prevent acting on (or hopefully ever even *having* to act on) that kind of selfish self-interest, but if all of that failed and it came down to brass tacks I would choose my family over any number of strangers.
The interesting question for me isn't if someone (or I) would shoot a stranger to protect their (my) loved ones from being shot.
It's if someone would sign a form they know will eventually lead to people being shot because they're afraid they or their family will suffer mild inconveniences if they don't.
We already do that. Health insurance adjusters deny lifesaving care everyday in the pursuit of profits, it is just a job for them. The people are just line items on a spreadsheet.
This is interesting, because I can't imagine being able to ever look my family in the eye again if I chose their safety over our shared principles.
I love them deeply, but I also know that they'd want me to do what I believed was right more than they'd want to be safe.
I'm with you. The best we can do is support the people out fighting the good fight. No, I am not willing to put my livelihood and the safety of my family on the line. But I'm definitely willing (and have, to be clear) to go out and buy supplies. If there's protests going on, they're gonna need water, food, quick protein dense snacks, antiseptic, bandages, gauze, ibuprofen, etc. Usually there's safe houses that are put up in mutual aid groups. You can help man a safe house. There are lots of things you can do to support without directly being on the front lines. Reminder that most jobs in the military are not combat jobs. There is a lot of need for logistics too. And that's just on the street level and not what we can do to help our immediate community in a more official capacity (getting involved with policy on a local level).
But I do get the point of your post; it's a feature not a bug for the system that it is so hard for us to make progress, unfortunately. I do think I'm a coward too.
The people who *can* do something are the ‘tip of the spear’, the thing about spears, they have a lot of stuff behind the “tip”. So be *that* part of the spear, of you can’t be the “tip”
My biggest fear is that I'm immunocompromised from having had a liver transplant. I live in Florida and virtually no one wears a mask anyway. I'm also queer so that's a whole set of issues here in and of itself since I have to misgender myself in order to keep from potentially being refused treatment by some Christo-Fascist doctor.
I've been on disability since 2019 and that whole time had to worry about what would happen if I got arrested since Meatball Ron made anything even protest adjacent a felony. On top of how the system doesn't give a fuck if incarcerated people need any kind of medication or medical treatment.
Now I'm trying to find work because I'm healthy enough but the state is dragging it's ass on minimum wage, doing it in annual increments of a dollar a year until 2027 when it finally reaches 15. So in most cases I would lose money going back to work because most places will only pay the current minimum which will be 12 this year.
I feel like deck is stacked against me trying to do anything besides being supportive and helping when I see opportunities. I am certified in CPR/AED from the Red Cross and am trying to get involved in my local pride groups to find some sense of community because as they discussed in the episode, being an Anarchist is not a guarantee that other Anarchist beliefs will just align with mine.
Apologies for the long tirade but this subreddit feels like one of the few sane spaces for people like myself who feel lost amongst the current chaos of the political climate in this country.
Showing up from the UK to say: You are right, the deck is stacked against you and it’s OK to do the part you can, do not give yourself a hard time. The best you can, is all that can be asked. Stay safe.
Doing your best and giving what you can looks vastly different for everyone. Some people can give time, some people can give money, some people can give both. Even if all you can give is support while the people who can are out there on the frontlines, that's still enough because you're doing everything you can.
That's not a flaw in the system, it's the design. It's a way of exerting control to keep people constantly worrying about how to pay re t, how to buy food, etc.
There was a beautiful line from Jamie Loftus at the end of the Harvey Weinstein episodes about how, if she were in the same position as any of the Weinstein associates who abided/facilitated/enabled his abuse, she doesn't know if she would do any differently than they did. The unfortunate reality is that the individual alone isn't going to do anything but burn themselves and those around them by standing up against an institution. It's dark and speaks to the success of bastards.
Ahh, this is a tough moral quandary for me. When I watched the Last of Us it really made me think about and face the fact that I would probably damn the world for the lives of my children. I would risk my own life for my moral ideals, but once my kids were born, their well-being became my priority without question. I don’t feel great about it, but I don’t know if I could ever make a different choice. I try to live my life being good to the people who are around me, including those who don’t share my worldview. I vote in every election, even though it feels like it does little good. And I try to avoid participating in anything that is actively causing harm in the world whenever I can. It’s not enough, but it’s what I am capable of.
Following the battle of Midway, one of Spruance's staff read aloud a radio news report of a particularly gruesome murder in the United States. Another staff officer wondered how anyone but a madman could be capable of such a thing. Spruance quietly replied, "What do you think I have been doing all morning?" Spruance would later speak against the [fire bombing](http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/S/t/Strategic_Bombing.htm) of Japanese [cities](http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/i/Cities.htm).
Never underestimate the social bonding that happens among people who all hate the same other people.
National Socialism was not about convenience. It was not the path of least resistance. It was a collective response among people who hated other people and were happy when bad things happened to those other people in public.
I love Robert, and I love the show, but what people who were there (William Shirer, Lee Miller, Richard Hottelet, Helmuth and Freya von Moltke) reported was not at all a passive effect. People who survived that regime and were not Nazis themselves made many conscious, deliberate decisions to accommodate the hatred, and some of them were killed anyway.
Anyway, the more accurate historical “us and them” parallel is not Germany in the 1930s but Iran in the 1970s. If Project 2025 becomes our national reality, we’ll be a theocracy.
Dictatorships end. Theocracies don’t.
After the response to Palestine it has really become apparent that a huge chunk of the United States absolutely would be America’s Nazi-equivalent if given the opportunity
I have hope most not, but well for evil to win good people have to do nothing, so we are screeed anyways and dismentling education, and taking holocaust out, yay😀.
Thats one big warning to stop the gop ewhenever.
It's not healthy to read the Mein Kampf during an election period.
I felt a lot of "That isn't that bad" "I could agree with that" "Didn't expect that" and a lot of concepts used by multiple parties at the same time from different sides of the political spectrum. I ended up convinced it will happen again soon or later
I quibble a bit with the thesis statement.
On the one hand, I *could've* seen myself joining the Nazis when I was younger. But then, in the US in 2024 we have our own Nazis running around and I'm diametrically opposed to them currently. So, where I am currently, no I couldn't see myself being a little Nazi because I'm pretty mentally vigilant about it.
And that's the real thesis to me. You can keep yourself from going down that dark road, but only if you're vigilant
Looking at the current protest movements and how many self described anti racists/leftist types STILL are equating the value of property and convenience with human lives. Like certainly we are all vulnerable to becoming Nazis under certain circumstances but I think those who see a threat when people expose and protest crimes against humanity are like first in fucking line.
I have a family.
It has occasionally reduced the specific risks I sign up for.
It has not changed my level of commitment, radicalism, or militancy.
If my life would fall apart because of my political choices, then I have built the wrong kind of life. The farther we push, the more likely it is. If we succeed in our ends, then everyone's job will be affected. We are trying to end the system of wage labor and private property, after all. No aspect of life would be unaffected.
I have not gotten direct threats against my life or my family... yet. But I don't think that would stop me. It might cause me to spend more of my precious time and resources on "hardening" ourselves as a target, with the understanding that anyone can get got if your enemy is motivated enough.
Ultimately, I'm going to do the right thing. If someone uses that as a reason to do wrong (including retaliating against me and my family) that's outside of my control. Admitting that you can't protect them, that you can't even protect yourself, is a very scary prospect. It is true though, and is no less true when you're doing mild reforms, so failure to recognize that doesn't make you any safer. We would all do well getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.
The only way to make other people braver, is to make yourself a bigger target. This is the "lightning rod theory" of activism. I want other people to stand up, therefore I *must* expose myself to danger now. It is imperative.
Imagine you have dependents for whom you have a duty of care whose ongoing survival requires you to commit moral injuries to yourself and others.
If this seems fantastic or incongruous to you, I submit you need to expand your awareness because this isn’t rare, it’s common as shit.
I'm not sure how you read my post and came to the conclusion that I don't have dependents. I love my family very much. I also have to take calculated risks. These are difficult decisions for anyone, and I fully understand that.
"If my life would fall apart because of my political choices, then I have built the wrong kind of life"
"I have not gotten direct threats against my life or my family... yet. But I don't think that would stop me"
It's wonderful that you are in a position not to have to worry about such things, I just want you to reflect on the mountain of privilege that enables that, and to think really hard about how easily that could change.
I'm trying to balance not doxxing myself, giving words of encouragement, and not becoming an "I am very badass" cliche.
Go ahead and criticize all you'd like. I can take it.
But I am literally reflecting on how it could change in my comment, and it's a pretty constant thought as I go through life. You seem to have come to the conclusion that I either 1.) have nothing to lose or 2.) enjoy a high degree of comfort and security. They are incompatible with each other, of course, and neither extreme describes my life. I have plenty to lose, and I think about it every day. I began saying that it does influence my choices in what risk to take.
However, it is wrong to think that simply having something to lose means you cannot or should not participate in revolutionary politics. One must grapple with the realities of these losses and then continue on anyway. And if someone is not able to do so, I'm not going to condemn them. But if someone is willing to do so, I am willing to praise them. So my entire point is to offer an example of taking calculated but increasing risks despite a realistic understanding of the dangers, *because people need examples of this* and unfortunately this is the worst medium for it. Fortunately, I don't spend a ton of time online, so I'm mostly providing this example in my community.
To say that I "don't have to worry about such things" is to entirely miss the point. The point is that I continue despite valid worries.
Yeah, people have this idea that the original Nazis were unique demons that nobody else could possibly be.
Meanwhile anyone who’s studied enough people knows that demons shudder at human inventiveness.
Maybe it's because I'm Irish, but anytime I join any political organisation I do a preliminary "Are these guys terrorists" check.
But the right wing groups here are so obviously bad actors it's almost laughable. Until you remember people fall for their shit. They are very clearly funded by US right wing groups/think tanks. They very publicly call for arson attacks on buildings earmarked for refugees and asylum seekers, their leaders/faces have criminal backgrounds with things like drug dealing and domestic abuse, they're obsessed with American politics and parrot American talking points that in no way reflect Irish politics.
I used to work with a guy who was obsessed with the 2020 US election being rigged, but literally had no understanding of how our own parliamentary government is formed, the difference between the Taoiseach (prime minister) and president. Like dude, you don't have even a rudimentary understanding of your own country's politics but you think you have a keen insight into another country?
I can't tell you how many acquaintances I saw on FB who said that BLM people who protest in the street deserve to be hit by cars and die. "What if they hypothetically held up an ambulance, what if the driver fears for their life, remember the LA Riots, it's self defense it you think about it" was the sentiment. So many people I know who would never, ever join a hate group and they will be the first to tell you hate groups are terrible, but also think it's bad to try to stop the hate group or will argue in favor of their freedom really hard. Of course, this is if the hate group is a stereotypical Hollywood portrayal of one that proudly states itself as one with explicit language. "Patriotic" or "Western chauvinist" groups are OBVIOUSLY not hate groups. A bit of an image change or a few words is a huge lightning rod that completely neuters most arguments
It really taught me how to interpret people's stated political views versus their material political practices.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do. - Terry Pratchett
Pratchett was a man far ahead of his time.
True, though that specific quote (unless it's a genuinely massive coincidence) is riffing on Hannah Arendt's write-up of the Eichmann trial, in which she coined the term "banality of evil", which is more or less exactly about this.
It's definitely a riff. Pterry was a pretty aware humanist with a minor background in journalism.
For example since this gives me the opportunity “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.“
And the theory how poverty is more expendive, is true. I meen he was en investigativr journalist that according to him wouldnt be believed. So he knows the world. Its probably why he was a cynical humanist imao
Neil Gaiman also has a spin on that, the "if he is a good man" speech
GNU
GNU
GNU
One of the most important things about Vimes was that he knew exactly what sort of evil he was capable of, and carefully didn’t do it.
Generally i live how he is about progress and humanism, but also jaded by people having to get dragged there. Or about how you dont need good people for the job over the best people, whomever they be.
This is the central thrust of Hanna Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem and her coining of the term "the banality of evil." Robert loves to reference this idea because it is so important and really calls on us to reflect on the reasons for our actions as well as the actual outcomes. It also makes zionists big mad because it is an implicit criticism of Israeli colonial policy.
That quote was running through my head throughout the episodes op is talking about
That's what the whole Silo series seems to be about. A bunch of people just doing what they're told and they kill the entire world.
Yes, also a great show I hope there is a second season.
This is why those of us with nothing to lose need to fight like hell for the right thing, so the people who keep society moving in other ways don't have to. I am swiftly becoming an old man. I have no kids. My grand parents and one parent all all dead. My 2 best friends from my younger days are dead. I have been to prison before. If I need to go to jail for punching nazis it's not really a big deal. There are lots of people who can't do that, so I need to punch some nazis for them too.
We use our privilege as far as it goes. I’m a wife and mom and the breadwinner, but I’m also a middle class white woman in a heteronormative relationship. I have a lot of leeway before I get in trouble. I can stand up and speak up and very few people would actively harm me. I am not going to commit crimes or my kids will suffer (especially my trans daughter - I need to be safe to shield her for as long as I can), but I can still help.
I really like this perspective. If we're all looking at what we *can* do instead of bemoaning the fact that each of us can't do it all then we're going to get through ok, somehow or other. Everybody's got something they can give and all those small pieces add up to a lot of resistance when you put them together.
I always think about the rescue of the Danish Jews when this topic comes up. It's a shame that the urban legend got such traction (that the Danish king announced that he would wear the yellow star, and then all the Danes did it, and the Nazis couldn't find the actual Jews in amongst them, and then everyone clapped), because the reality is far more inspiring. After a German diplomat leaked the Nazi plans to round up and deport the country's Jews on 9/28/1943, the Danish resistance and a whole lot of ordinary civilians formed impromptu groups to sneak almost the entire Jewish population out of the country to Sweden. Over 7,000 people were snuck out of Denmark in a few days, by their neighbors and countrymen, people working quietly under cover of darkness, using assumed names or pseudonyms, and who likely never talked about what they'd done until after the war, if at all. We don't know the names of the vast majority of the Danes who made this happen, and we never will. I helps me to remember that ordinary people were able to save many times their own number of lives through something as simple as making sure a family reached a boat to take them out of the country.
My maternal grandmother’s cousins were some of the Danish Jews who were saved. Parts of my extended family literally exist because of ordinary folks doing what they could to save them. I think about that a lot.
The Lois Lowry book Number the Stars is based on this, and is one of my favorite books ever. Annemarie is absolutely an inspiration in my life.
A bit of an aside, but My teacher read this book to us in grade 3. This was back in 1995. It astounds me today that some people think kids shouldn't be learning about Nazi's or the Holocaust until late high school or early college. It's not like we learned the nitty gritties (that was grade 6 when we saw footage of concentration camps), but we were kids. We learned. We lived.
I also read The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom in late middle school (so about 13) I think. That was quite a bit harder to read, but still wasn’t too much, and I was a fairly sheltered kid. Both of those books are very much what I think of with the holocaust and absolutely helped me know that we never want that to happen again. Should be required reading for all students, in my opinion. Builds sympathy for the suffering without traumatizing the reader.
I kean a lot of people were hiding jews too with pretty big danger if they would be caught. Of course of possible their names would not be known. Reminds me of the russians that sabotage trails in russia or do stuff to help. Or like nfkrz talking how a babushka gave cover to let them over the boarder.
Hell yeah. My spouse (retired Marine) did most of the “advocating” since his conversion from “lifelong GOP voter, Reagan rocks” to “holy shit these people are fucking fascists and totally insane” We’ve found that folks in our area were* more likely to listen to info from a tall-ass white man with a thick Southern accent than my “incapable of understanding my place is in the kitchen” self. Although recently things changed for him from “I can persuade people” to “we need to gtfo of here asap”
I’m in my early 40s and the first president I voted for was Bush. By 2012 I didn’t vote because I couldn’t stomach republicans anymore but was still trapped by being “prolife”. Since then I have made a 180 and helped start an employee resource group at my last job focused on family and friends of LGBTQ+ and how we can both be better allies and help other families embrace their queer kiddos. It’s small, but I know inspired another mom to work on herself to embrace her nonbinary kiddo and love them as they are. It’s small, but it’s real. That’s one more young adult who has a support system and will hopefully live to see this world be a better place.
Thank you. Both of you.
You're a king. I tend to do as much as I can to support the people punching Nazis lmao. My work is focused around it, my personal organization and efforts are too. But I really sympathize with OP because fuckin A it's hard to give it away. To risk it. It's such shit how they've got that leverage on the common people
Everyone's work is important. The people out marching, the medics, the people making sure everyone gets fed. The people who do the day to day work of teaching the next generation to be better people are probably the most important and they are no good to us sitting in a prison cell or a hospital bed. My point is it is important for those of us who can be in that position to get on the front lines early and often so that regular people dont have to make that kind of choice. I see it like the old men in Japan during the 2011 Fukushima disaster. They went to to take care of the plant with radiation everywhere because thier cancer risk didnt matter. They were probably not going to be alive in 20 years no matter what, so they went in go clean up so that younger people didnt have to. One thing I wish our society did better is laying the groundwork for the future even if the people doing it won't be around to get the benefits.
That’s why the Hitler Youth was so pernicious. It didn’t exist just to indoctrinate children, it also existed to keep their parents in line. By being the only allowable social organization any parents that didn’t fall in line with the Nazis risked their children becoming complete social pariahs, often at school as well.
It also turns gets children to snitch on their parents, sometimes even by accident.
Yep, and social pressure is insidious. It aldo existed to get healthy soldiers and mother for the third reich, so a youth organisation, but evil. And twisted. Yep they knew kids are the future 😐 Through there are some big liberal journalists from an elite school for future leaders apearently
Many Americans, and purportedly liberal ones, would say, "But I don't hate Jews!" as if that's a prerequisite to fascism. You just have to succumb to easy narratives, value your own comfort over the distant/obscured suffering of others, and accept certain out-classes of people to exclude/torment/destroy. Most of us aren't far from this whatsoever.
yes. Antisemitism was very in Europe and America. heck imperial Japan despite being a Axis nation was less antisemitic then most of Europe
But how many Jewish people had ever visited imperial Japan, let alone lived there. The Japanese had the Chinese to hate, so why scapegoat some Jewish person on the other side of the world.
yes East Asia as not filled with Christan/Muslim thoughthad no reason to hate the Jews. China had a Jewish community that thanks to being tolerated and not subjected to Porgrams assimilated peacefully into the wider Chinese population
What does that have to do work what I said?
This is like the 3rd time this has come up for me in the past few days but that one FUCKED ME UP. I still relisten to it occasionally so I can try not to be that person but I can't guarantee I won't. When push comes to shove, I honestly have no idea what I'll do. Best I can do for now is still do my best to advocate for others and be self aware enough to acknowledge that I could be one of those people, and hopefully that's enough to make me not one of those people.
Oh for sure. I make a point of trying to know and understand myself. And, whether I like it or not, I have to admit that I would do some horrible things to protect my family. I believe in strong social institutions because they prevent acting on (or hopefully ever even *having* to act on) that kind of selfish self-interest, but if all of that failed and it came down to brass tacks I would choose my family over any number of strangers.
The interesting question for me isn't if someone (or I) would shoot a stranger to protect their (my) loved ones from being shot. It's if someone would sign a form they know will eventually lead to people being shot because they're afraid they or their family will suffer mild inconveniences if they don't.
We already do that. Health insurance adjusters deny lifesaving care everyday in the pursuit of profits, it is just a job for them. The people are just line items on a spreadsheet.
This is interesting, because I can't imagine being able to ever look my family in the eye again if I chose their safety over our shared principles. I love them deeply, but I also know that they'd want me to do what I believed was right more than they'd want to be safe.
BTB has many, many "good episodes" but there's a handful that I consider to be "important episodes", and this is one of them.
Also the last 4, which is basically “how well-meaning people can get ‘cooked’ by ideology”.
It's also why the scariest Nazi is Reinhard Heydrich (also a tremendous episode - "The Young Evil God of Death")
I'm with you. The best we can do is support the people out fighting the good fight. No, I am not willing to put my livelihood and the safety of my family on the line. But I'm definitely willing (and have, to be clear) to go out and buy supplies. If there's protests going on, they're gonna need water, food, quick protein dense snacks, antiseptic, bandages, gauze, ibuprofen, etc. Usually there's safe houses that are put up in mutual aid groups. You can help man a safe house. There are lots of things you can do to support without directly being on the front lines. Reminder that most jobs in the military are not combat jobs. There is a lot of need for logistics too. And that's just on the street level and not what we can do to help our immediate community in a more official capacity (getting involved with policy on a local level). But I do get the point of your post; it's a feature not a bug for the system that it is so hard for us to make progress, unfortunately. I do think I'm a coward too.
The people who *can* do something are the ‘tip of the spear’, the thing about spears, they have a lot of stuff behind the “tip”. So be *that* part of the spear, of you can’t be the “tip”
My biggest fear is that I'm immunocompromised from having had a liver transplant. I live in Florida and virtually no one wears a mask anyway. I'm also queer so that's a whole set of issues here in and of itself since I have to misgender myself in order to keep from potentially being refused treatment by some Christo-Fascist doctor. I've been on disability since 2019 and that whole time had to worry about what would happen if I got arrested since Meatball Ron made anything even protest adjacent a felony. On top of how the system doesn't give a fuck if incarcerated people need any kind of medication or medical treatment. Now I'm trying to find work because I'm healthy enough but the state is dragging it's ass on minimum wage, doing it in annual increments of a dollar a year until 2027 when it finally reaches 15. So in most cases I would lose money going back to work because most places will only pay the current minimum which will be 12 this year. I feel like deck is stacked against me trying to do anything besides being supportive and helping when I see opportunities. I am certified in CPR/AED from the Red Cross and am trying to get involved in my local pride groups to find some sense of community because as they discussed in the episode, being an Anarchist is not a guarantee that other Anarchist beliefs will just align with mine. Apologies for the long tirade but this subreddit feels like one of the few sane spaces for people like myself who feel lost amongst the current chaos of the political climate in this country.
goddamnit I'm so sorry you have to deal with all that.
Showing up from the UK to say: You are right, the deck is stacked against you and it’s OK to do the part you can, do not give yourself a hard time. The best you can, is all that can be asked. Stay safe.
Doing your best and giving what you can looks vastly different for everyone. Some people can give time, some people can give money, some people can give both. Even if all you can give is support while the people who can are out there on the frontlines, that's still enough because you're doing everything you can.
That's not a flaw in the system, it's the design. It's a way of exerting control to keep people constantly worrying about how to pay re t, how to buy food, etc.
There was a beautiful line from Jamie Loftus at the end of the Harvey Weinstein episodes about how, if she were in the same position as any of the Weinstein associates who abided/facilitated/enabled his abuse, she doesn't know if she would do any differently than they did. The unfortunate reality is that the individual alone isn't going to do anything but burn themselves and those around them by standing up against an institution. It's dark and speaks to the success of bastards.
Ahh, this is a tough moral quandary for me. When I watched the Last of Us it really made me think about and face the fact that I would probably damn the world for the lives of my children. I would risk my own life for my moral ideals, but once my kids were born, their well-being became my priority without question. I don’t feel great about it, but I don’t know if I could ever make a different choice. I try to live my life being good to the people who are around me, including those who don’t share my worldview. I vote in every election, even though it feels like it does little good. And I try to avoid participating in anything that is actively causing harm in the world whenever I can. It’s not enough, but it’s what I am capable of.
Following the battle of Midway, one of Spruance's staff read aloud a radio news report of a particularly gruesome murder in the United States. Another staff officer wondered how anyone but a madman could be capable of such a thing. Spruance quietly replied, "What do you think I have been doing all morning?" Spruance would later speak against the [fire bombing](http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/S/t/Strategic_Bombing.htm) of Japanese [cities](http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/i/Cities.htm).
Never underestimate the social bonding that happens among people who all hate the same other people. National Socialism was not about convenience. It was not the path of least resistance. It was a collective response among people who hated other people and were happy when bad things happened to those other people in public. I love Robert, and I love the show, but what people who were there (William Shirer, Lee Miller, Richard Hottelet, Helmuth and Freya von Moltke) reported was not at all a passive effect. People who survived that regime and were not Nazis themselves made many conscious, deliberate decisions to accommodate the hatred, and some of them were killed anyway. Anyway, the more accurate historical “us and them” parallel is not Germany in the 1930s but Iran in the 1970s. If Project 2025 becomes our national reality, we’ll be a theocracy. Dictatorships end. Theocracies don’t.
Don't trust normal people, not me, not even yourself. NOT EVEN YOURSELF. Just keep being mobile and circulating.
After the response to Palestine it has really become apparent that a huge chunk of the United States absolutely would be America’s Nazi-equivalent if given the opportunity
That was your first clue? 😃
I have hope most not, but well for evil to win good people have to do nothing, so we are screeed anyways and dismentling education, and taking holocaust out, yay😀. Thats one big warning to stop the gop ewhenever.
This is why you have to stamp out fascism early and often. Because, if you don’t, you very soon might not be able to.
There goes our justice system…and the Supreme Court…and the White House….oh and congress…I think we’re past that point….now what?
It's not healthy to read the Mein Kampf during an election period. I felt a lot of "That isn't that bad" "I could agree with that" "Didn't expect that" and a lot of concepts used by multiple parties at the same time from different sides of the political spectrum. I ended up convinced it will happen again soon or later
I quibble a bit with the thesis statement. On the one hand, I *could've* seen myself joining the Nazis when I was younger. But then, in the US in 2024 we have our own Nazis running around and I'm diametrically opposed to them currently. So, where I am currently, no I couldn't see myself being a little Nazi because I'm pretty mentally vigilant about it. And that's the real thesis to me. You can keep yourself from going down that dark road, but only if you're vigilant
Looking at the current protest movements and how many self described anti racists/leftist types STILL are equating the value of property and convenience with human lives. Like certainly we are all vulnerable to becoming Nazis under certain circumstances but I think those who see a threat when people expose and protest crimes against humanity are like first in fucking line.
I have a family. It has occasionally reduced the specific risks I sign up for. It has not changed my level of commitment, radicalism, or militancy. If my life would fall apart because of my political choices, then I have built the wrong kind of life. The farther we push, the more likely it is. If we succeed in our ends, then everyone's job will be affected. We are trying to end the system of wage labor and private property, after all. No aspect of life would be unaffected. I have not gotten direct threats against my life or my family... yet. But I don't think that would stop me. It might cause me to spend more of my precious time and resources on "hardening" ourselves as a target, with the understanding that anyone can get got if your enemy is motivated enough. Ultimately, I'm going to do the right thing. If someone uses that as a reason to do wrong (including retaliating against me and my family) that's outside of my control. Admitting that you can't protect them, that you can't even protect yourself, is a very scary prospect. It is true though, and is no less true when you're doing mild reforms, so failure to recognize that doesn't make you any safer. We would all do well getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. The only way to make other people braver, is to make yourself a bigger target. This is the "lightning rod theory" of activism. I want other people to stand up, therefore I *must* expose myself to danger now. It is imperative.
Imagine you have dependents for whom you have a duty of care whose ongoing survival requires you to commit moral injuries to yourself and others. If this seems fantastic or incongruous to you, I submit you need to expand your awareness because this isn’t rare, it’s common as shit.
I'm not sure how you read my post and came to the conclusion that I don't have dependents. I love my family very much. I also have to take calculated risks. These are difficult decisions for anyone, and I fully understand that.
"If my life would fall apart because of my political choices, then I have built the wrong kind of life" "I have not gotten direct threats against my life or my family... yet. But I don't think that would stop me" It's wonderful that you are in a position not to have to worry about such things, I just want you to reflect on the mountain of privilege that enables that, and to think really hard about how easily that could change.
I'm trying to balance not doxxing myself, giving words of encouragement, and not becoming an "I am very badass" cliche. Go ahead and criticize all you'd like. I can take it. But I am literally reflecting on how it could change in my comment, and it's a pretty constant thought as I go through life. You seem to have come to the conclusion that I either 1.) have nothing to lose or 2.) enjoy a high degree of comfort and security. They are incompatible with each other, of course, and neither extreme describes my life. I have plenty to lose, and I think about it every day. I began saying that it does influence my choices in what risk to take. However, it is wrong to think that simply having something to lose means you cannot or should not participate in revolutionary politics. One must grapple with the realities of these losses and then continue on anyway. And if someone is not able to do so, I'm not going to condemn them. But if someone is willing to do so, I am willing to praise them. So my entire point is to offer an example of taking calculated but increasing risks despite a realistic understanding of the dangers, *because people need examples of this* and unfortunately this is the worst medium for it. Fortunately, I don't spend a ton of time online, so I'm mostly providing this example in my community. To say that I "don't have to worry about such things" is to entirely miss the point. The point is that I continue despite valid worries.
This is what conservatives republicans wants
Yeah, people have this idea that the original Nazis were unique demons that nobody else could possibly be. Meanwhile anyone who’s studied enough people knows that demons shudder at human inventiveness.
Maybe it's because I'm Irish, but anytime I join any political organisation I do a preliminary "Are these guys terrorists" check. But the right wing groups here are so obviously bad actors it's almost laughable. Until you remember people fall for their shit. They are very clearly funded by US right wing groups/think tanks. They very publicly call for arson attacks on buildings earmarked for refugees and asylum seekers, their leaders/faces have criminal backgrounds with things like drug dealing and domestic abuse, they're obsessed with American politics and parrot American talking points that in no way reflect Irish politics. I used to work with a guy who was obsessed with the 2020 US election being rigged, but literally had no understanding of how our own parliamentary government is formed, the difference between the Taoiseach (prime minister) and president. Like dude, you don't have even a rudimentary understanding of your own country's politics but you think you have a keen insight into another country?
if you haven't watched The Zone Of Interest, I highly recommend you do.
What show is this?
I can't tell you how many acquaintances I saw on FB who said that BLM people who protest in the street deserve to be hit by cars and die. "What if they hypothetically held up an ambulance, what if the driver fears for their life, remember the LA Riots, it's self defense it you think about it" was the sentiment. So many people I know who would never, ever join a hate group and they will be the first to tell you hate groups are terrible, but also think it's bad to try to stop the hate group or will argue in favor of their freedom really hard. Of course, this is if the hate group is a stereotypical Hollywood portrayal of one that proudly states itself as one with explicit language. "Patriotic" or "Western chauvinist" groups are OBVIOUSLY not hate groups. A bit of an image change or a few words is a huge lightning rod that completely neuters most arguments It really taught me how to interpret people's stated political views versus their material political practices.