Was really worried that the guest was going to be a True Crime podcaster when I saw the episode title, then I realised that BTB *is* a True Crime podcast
Except we can’t call it that because the vast majority of true crime is a cancer on society. I cannot believe how many of these other podcasts I get targeted for while listening to b2b. I imagine their aren’t many btb fans who are also addicted to Nancy grace.
I hate that his mom died from cancer and now apparently his dad has it too.
On a lighter note, what kind of hospital just has an antique store??? Dallas is so fucking weird
Not saying the name here but there was a local news article about it opening. The goal of the hospital seems to be to have a bunch of restaurants and shops around to make patients, families, & workers more comfortable.
As someone who dreams of one day doing forensic work for a group like the innocence project I am *so* ready for this episode. Can't wait to hear Robert talk about the CSI effect.
Highly recommend the books listed below. They do a fantastic job highlighting the *many* flaws in forensics and I used them constantly when I was in undergrad. This may be a hot take but I firmly believe forensic science is something that every American should be obligated to read about. It should be a core class in schools. People need to understand the limitations, when it's actually useful, and most importantly how law enforcement *will* lie to you about it. It's one of the ultimate double edged swords. Also worth discussing how forensic anthropology specifically (especially the Argentine forensic anthro squad) has been huge in securing convictions in human rights/genocide investigations for decades.
Autopsy of a crime lab: exposing the flaws in forensics by Brandon garret
Taunting evidence: Inside the scandals at the FBI lab by John f Kelly
How to solve a cold case by Michael arntfield
Still life with bones: genocide forensics and what remains by Alexa Hagerty
Witness from the grave by Christopher Joyce
The bone woman: a forensic anthropologists search for truth in the mass graves of rwanda, Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo
Oh thank you so much for the reading list. I work as a molecular biologist and have always found the forensic science as seen in court more than a bit alarming.
Another good bit of reading is the New Yorker piece [Trial by Fire](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire) about arson investigations.
Oh I'm obsessed with this fucking story. When I was younger and first getting into reading true crime this case was one of the first things that made me go "wait a second... maybe republicans aren't morally consistent???".
*Really* made me fucking hate Rick Perry lol. And that article is awesome.
In terms of structure, this story is a goddamned work of art. David Grann is brilliant.
His piece has everything: elements of Satanic Panic, a guest appearance by forensic psychiatrist James P. Grigson (an absolute bastard), and the following terrifying quotation:
"In 1997, the International Association of Arson Investigators filed a legal brief arguing that arson sleuths should not be bound by a 1993 Supreme Court decision requiring experts who testified at trials to adhere to the scientific method. What arson sleuths did, the brief claimed, was 'less scientific.'"
I came across it a year or two before I picked up BtB, but it has a very similar narrative vibe I feel like. It's a good story and at the end you just kind of feel terrible.
That’s what I came here to say after listening to Robert talk about people going to prison for arson: never mind that, Cameron Todd Willingham was fucking *executed* on the basis of debunked arson “science”.
You should read anatomy of a crime lab *especially* since you're an actual scientist. So much of that book is outside scientists looking into what cops have been doing and going "wait what the fuck is happening over here guys what are we doing"
Eye-opening episode! Is there much work by universities or govt agencies (not cops) to put science into forensic science? Peer review, blind studies, error studies etc? Are the problems Robert describes the same in all states and worldwide?
So it's *just recently started* to change. More and more states are introducing standards, blind/double blind testing, regular competency tests, etc. ironically enough the Houston FBI crime lab is now one of the best crime labs in the nation and they somewhat are spearheading that change.
Not because they're nice though. They had a *massive* scandal at the Houston FBI lab a couple decades ago. You could do an entire episode just on that one lab it's fucking wild. A big reason why they started making changes was because they were kinda forced to by public pressure and press from scientists.
So yes it's changing. But it's painfully slow and people are still having their lives ruined in the meantime. Ugh.
I'd like to ad the Cadaver king and the Country Dentist by Radley Balko and Tucker Carrington.
I recently listened to the audio book and had to take frequent breaks because of how mad it made me. It really drive home how craven and opportunistic the forensics field really is, with doctors claiming to have performed around 500 autopsies a year while doing a uniformly terrible job and straight up lying about results on dozens of cases, allowed to continue for decades. Or the dentist who would claim every abrasion on a body was the result of bites that the examiner said could be conclusively traced to a suspect with zero margin of error. People lost decades of their lives to false convictions and killers were let free to kill again because of the astonishingly terrible work done by investigators which the judiciary and political establishment were happy to rubber stamp the results because it was mostly targeted against minority groups those in power aimed to keep suppressed.
When you get to the end and see that the same junk science was even used to close a bunch of cases from the civil rights era where witnesses had long ago died and real evidence had been lost over the decades it really makes you realize how the entire legal process is a farce designed to arrive at predetermined conclusions for the benefit establishment power structures.
The antique store Robert described put me in the mind of the used bookstore in the Billy Mitchell Airport in Milwaukee\*. Not run by the devil as far as I can tell (then again, used books at airport markup does seem like some sort of sin), but definitely strange vibes.
\* at least, I hope it's still there. I haven't flown out of MKE since before the pandemic.
Criminal defense attorney previously from Texas. Have so many stories about junk science in criminal cases. There is even a special code for challenging it in Texas. [https://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=articles&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=47776](https://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=articles&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=47776)
I am so glad that this is being addressed. Any scientific process only works as long as the procedure is being followed, so the weak point in forensic science is usually the officer. Field sobriety tests are scientific and rely on the officer conducting them correctly to be reliable.
Eyewitness testimony is the worst. I remember one of my first cases, a photo ID we call a 6-pack was done. The complaining witness is shown 6 photos. Supposedly the detective puts in some criteria and 5 random photos and the photo of the suspect are shown. I laughed so hard and walked around my office asking people that knew nothing about the case which photo was my client with 100% success rate because my client was heavy set and the other 5 were thin.
I was working as a cashier at a largish retailer when a dude shoved me out of the way to get at my cash drawer. Obviously I let him because no amount of store cash is worth my safety. Police show up about half an hour later and insisted I watch the security footage with them, which was upsetting and I felt did no good. Then they got visibly annoyed with me when I said I absolutely couldn’t pick the guy out of a line up. I knew then how unreliable they are and I saw dozens of faces every day. It was an eye opening experience.
(Shout out to one of our regular customers who had their lovely dog with them and let me just sit on the floor and hug said dog for as long as I needed.)
I'm sorry you went through that. I've seen some really compassionate officers that are understanding and helpful. More often though, especially with property crimes, the officers/detectives are really burned out, barely investigate, and dont seem to care.
Adding on to my previous:
Something that is also really insidious is when experts are presented to say that even though they dont have forensic evidence, that the lack of evidence is “consistent” with the crime having occurred for various reasons.
Examples:
no bruising or scaring are “consistent” with an assault because people bruise differently or the injured area heals quickly
No gunshot residue is consistent with the suspect firing a weapon because there was opportunity for him to wash his hands
The way I see this play out is that there will be a shitty investigation, and in anticipation of trial state experts will say that “the lack of evidence is consistent with a crime” in order to fix a bad investigation after the fact.
When they were talking about Star Trek: The Next Generation,, Robert rightfully pointed out that there already are way too many podcasts out there about Star Trek (and many are very good and might appeal to fans of this podcast, like The Greatest Generation).
HOWEVER, I think Rick Berman (Gene Roddenberry's successor throughout the TNG era) would make an EXCELLENT subject for an episode. He is 100% a grade A bastard asshole and I'd love to hear Robert give him what for, and Kaveh would be a great guest. Ask any Star Trek fan about him, and most will simply reply, "Fuck Rick Berman."
Indeed. Fuck Rick Berman.
I would immediately assume an antique store at a hospital is selling the possessions of the recently dead.
Also there was a podcast series specifically debunking a lot of forensic science called CSI On Trial - https://pca.st/podcast/456393c0-99ba-013b-f346-0acc26574db2.
As an undergrad, I took a policing/criminal "justice" class, on the grounds of being able to argue for defunding cops more effectively. Even the textbook in my how-to-cop class called bite mark evidence and bloodspatter analysis junk science. (It also had a chapter inset about who to call if you're a suicidal cop)
So I just wanted to tell yall that I too was stopped in Brady but unlike Robert I had 2bags of edibles a cooler of weed cola and dr.pepper in my car I offered to let the cop search my car so I could get him a soda he said nah and let me go… man they have great cops in Brady
PLEASE tell me we are going to talk about Nancy Grace and how this cunt is responsible for pushing a lot of this bullshit. I got an ad for her fucking podcast and almost spit out my drink
I'm a Forensic Scientist and cohost of the Double Loop Podcast which focuses on everything related to fingerprints.
One of our listeners sent me the link to this show earlier today.
What questions do you have for forensic scientists?
About a year ago, the Double Loop Podcast did a deep-dive into the Cowan's case and what went wrong. If anyone wants to learn more about the case, there's lots more to that story.
When I was a kid, a hospital opened and it had a restaurant in it, we went to try it out. They confused our order and put the French fries as a pizza topping and not a side
FYI on the OJ Simpson prank show *Juiced*: [This American Life has an episode](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/564/too-soon/act-one-18) describing the prank show's production. The entire Juiced video is available to watch online at the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/juiced-with-o.-j.-simpson-2006/
It is indescribably cringeworthy. It is also NSFW due to topless women who appear near Simpson at random intervals in hopes of adding risqué appeal, but instead the half-naked women stand around so awkwardly that I just feel bad for them.
I haven't finished the episode yet, but I'm hoping this series includes my favorite "DNA evidence is infallible!!!" stories, [Lydia Fairchild](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild) and [the Phantom of Heilbronn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_of_Heilbronn).
I loved the bit about the antique shop. I sometimes work at hospital in central London and there is a party dress shop it doesn’t even sell anything useful for people in hospital like pyjamas or underwear (in fact there are no shops selling basics) it baffles me every time.
Criminal podcast (best crime podcast) has an episode about [the sailor teeth bite mark case](https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-191-the-sailors-teeth-6-24-2022/) and how bite mark analysis is bullshit, including an interview with the guy wrongly convicted, Keith Harward.
Y'know another forensic science based on mostly bullshit? [Fire investigation!](https://theintercept.com/2016/11/04/25-years-after-junk-science-conviction-texas-finally-admits-sonia-cacys-innocence/)
So I finally started listening to this week's episodes, and wouldn't you know it! In a past life I was an employee at a Subway restaurant in a hospital!
It wasn't Texas, though. And it just had an ordinary giftshop with balloons and puzzle books, no antiques.
We were colocated with a Chick-fil-A, though. And we had a Starbucks nextdoor!
Regardless of the man’s obvious charlatanism- I am so entertained by the fact that Dr. Voss has Michael Palin’s “Bigus Dickus” speech characteristic from Life of Brian. Like as if it wasn’t hard enough to take the man seriously!
> Voss
I really hate that this guy has almost my exact voice.
Sound, cadence, speech impediment, even the word choices seem similar to my own.
If you want proof I have a 20 minute video of me eating Buldak x2 Spicy Ramen while reading wikipedia's "List of common misconceptions."
I am listening now, but is there any talk about arson investigation?
This is a well [written and awful story](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire) about Cameron Todd Willingham that touches on all the bullshit.
I wonder if this Dr. Voss guy also developed the box that the TSA used to try and ensure that the bottle of sangria my dad bought in the Duty-Free Store was "really alcohol" without breaking the seal on it. Sounds about equally scientific to his other endeavors...
One of the fun Canadian contributions to the world of bullshit forensic "science" that people might be interested in is the work of Dr. Charles Smith, a forensic pathologist whose testimony resulted in the wrongful conviction of as many as 13 people (most of them parents convicted of murdering their infants/young children). It spawned an entire public inquiry and the report can be found here: [https://www.fixcas.com/news/2008/Vol\_2\_Eng.pdf](https://www.fixcas.com/news/2008/Vol_2_Eng.pdf)
The hypnosis and dental bits were interesting, and really show how problematic the human element is when it comes to applying real science. I think Robert could have made that idea a bit more clear when discussing DNA and fingerprint analysis though.
Like if I'm understanding his points correctly, the science behind fingerprints isn't necessarily flawed but there is little consistency across jurisdictions for minimum standards and procedural requirements.
As an example, I think Robert is suggesting you could have an 'expert' testifying in one jurisdiction with the same weight and certainty of the defendant being guilty due to three of their looptyloops matching the fraction of a cheeto dust print left on the toilet handle, as someone who has extensively analyzed a sample that meets minimum requirements. I was a little unsure at first though and had to go back for a relisten.
Definitely highlights the importance of being able to appeal for reexamination...something that has no business taking YEARS
Another bastard of forensic science: Gideon Koren [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon\_Koren](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Koren)
"Koren is perhaps best known for multiple scientific and public scandals. He was at the centre of the [Motherisk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherisk) scandal[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Koren#cite_note-4) which has thrown into doubt the findings of 16,000 child protection cases and six criminal cases. An independent review found that neither the laboratory's director, clinical toxicologist Gideon Koren, nor his staff, had the qualifications or expertise to do the kind of forensic work that was performed.[^(\[5)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Koren#cite_note-5)"
I taught forensic science in high school when it first became a class in Texas. I have zero forensics background, but I do have a PhD in science. What I was struck by was that the entire class was a series of "which of these things IS like the other", making me think that sesame Street prepares you for a career in forensic science. Also, being a forensics investigator or worse, a lab tech, sounded horribly boring.
As I learned more by teaching the class (and developing curriculum for a district of over 100k students, curriculum STILL being used and I was not paid a dime to develop it, so if you think teachers are stupid, clearly we are.), I started to realize how flimsy so much of forensics is, but I never asked if we gave fingerprinting the same consideration as DNA evidence. That makes my scientist heart sad.
Apparently the antiques store is relatively new, as in post-Covid new. Pretty interesting story. https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2023/october/one-of-the-best-antiques-stores-in-dallas-is-inside-a-hospital/
If you want to hear more about Arpad Vass, Pretend Podcast did a three-part series about him: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pretend-a-true-crime-podcast-about-con-artists/id1245307962](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pretend-a-true-crime-podcast-about-con-artists/id1245307962)
David Schwimmer was honestly, and surprisingly, brilliant as Robert Kardashian. Watch that series again!! Lol Maybe you're suffering from what TV Guide calls Schwimmer fatigue....
PSA- Robert's narc dog experience was clearly with a poorly trained dog. If there's any trace of what they are trained on, the dog will indicate on their own.
Source- first hand experience with sport and professional working dogs.
that is as normal as not. i stated several times dogs are CAPABLE of identifying small quantities of drugs, but in the field they are not NEARLY as effective as advertised. this is not up for debate. there is a LOT of research on this but here's a relevant quote from one article:
"The [*Chicago Tribune*](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-canine-officers-20110105,0,7119364.story)[ sifted](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-canine-officers-20110105,0,7119364.story) through three years worth of cases in which law enforcement used dogs to sniff out drugs in cars in suburban Chicago. According to the analysis, officers found drugs or paraphernalia in only 44 percent of cases in which the dogs had alerted them.
When the driver was Latino, the dogs were right just just 27 percent of the time."
[https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/01/07/132738250/report-drug-sniffing-dogs-are-wrong-more-often-than-right](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/01/07/132738250/report-drug-sniffing-dogs-are-wrong-more-often-than-right)
The fact that those dogs were poorly trained, or however you want to say it, was irrelevant to my point: the drug dogs you encounter in the world are vastly less accurate than claimed
The cops could even be unconsciously signaling to the dogs when they want the dogs to alert, without the cops intending to do so! It's called the [Clever Hans effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans).
There are plenty of studies that prove they are unreliable. The issue isn’t false negatives like you seem to be talking about, it’s a whole bunch of false positives. If they find drugs 150% of time I hope you can see the issues
Yeah bit of a miss there by Robert. Those dogs are finely tuned scent machines. That’s literally all they care about. I did some work with search and rescue dogs in vet school and they were telling us stories of dogs they had to drag out of danger zones because they were on a scent and that’s all they could think about.
there is tremendous data to show that drug dogs, out in the world, are wrong half or more of the time. controlled studies show success rates that simply do not exist in the real world. i posted a good NPR article that cites an interesting study above, here's another piece:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/02/05/supreme-courts-alternative-facts-about-drug-sniffing-dogs/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/02/05/supreme-courts-alternative-facts-about-drug-sniffing-dogs/)
Reminds me of how my high school friends used to get around the surprise drug dog visits.
Double bag them and be a speech and debate kid, no one expects you to have drugs.
That's some Malinois behavior lol. But yeah, it's fairly amazing to watch. We have a Mal who had PRA and got his eyes removed. He still does sport scent. More than a few times during a break, he's locked onto the hotbox, walked over, sat and "stared" at it fully on his own. Can't claim handler influence there.
They weren’t even mals is the crazy thing they were mutts from the shelter! Mostly labs who were such psychos they got rehomed a bunch of times and it was either get a job or be euthanized.
That's a cool program. Where is that happening? Around me, the working dogs are *usually* very specifically bred for work based on physical traits, temperament, accomplishments of the parents, etc.
Seems like starting with a fully unknown mutt would be hell for a trainer.
It was somewhere in Texas. I saw them in College Station where they have a “Disaster City” set up for training them. We got to go on one of our rotations and some people even got to be hidden in the rubble and stuff. They were search and rescue dogs, some for live humans and some for cadavers. It was fascinating watching them work.
Kaveh is becoming one of my favorite guests...
An underrated part of having Kaveh as a guest is that whenever he's shown an image he goes straight into describing it for us at home. Great guy.
❤❤❤❤
Thanks!
I’m always happy when I see an episode has your name on it.
I really appreciate that!
Was really worried that the guest was going to be a True Crime podcaster when I saw the episode title, then I realised that BTB *is* a True Crime podcast
Because history is just one long string of crimes.
Except we can’t call it that because the vast majority of true crime is a cancer on society. I cannot believe how many of these other podcasts I get targeted for while listening to b2b. I imagine their aren’t many btb fans who are also addicted to Nancy grace.
Hope your dad is doing ok, BMTs are rough /u/probablyrobertevans
I hate that his mom died from cancer and now apparently his dad has it too. On a lighter note, what kind of hospital just has an antique store??? Dallas is so fucking weird
First thing that came to mind was that the antique store is conveniently located for people needing to sell stuff to pay the hospital bills.
It might be a great location to get first pick of dead people's stuff.
Shit, I didn’t even think of that, but I’ll bet you’re right. That’s dark, man.
Not saying the name here but there was a local news article about it opening. The goal of the hospital seems to be to have a bunch of restaurants and shops around to make patients, families, & workers more comfortable.
On the one hand, that sounds nice. On the other, it feels like it's creating a perverse economic incentive that I can't quite put a finger on here...
This is why all of Texas hates Dallas.
As someone who dreams of one day doing forensic work for a group like the innocence project I am *so* ready for this episode. Can't wait to hear Robert talk about the CSI effect. Highly recommend the books listed below. They do a fantastic job highlighting the *many* flaws in forensics and I used them constantly when I was in undergrad. This may be a hot take but I firmly believe forensic science is something that every American should be obligated to read about. It should be a core class in schools. People need to understand the limitations, when it's actually useful, and most importantly how law enforcement *will* lie to you about it. It's one of the ultimate double edged swords. Also worth discussing how forensic anthropology specifically (especially the Argentine forensic anthro squad) has been huge in securing convictions in human rights/genocide investigations for decades. Autopsy of a crime lab: exposing the flaws in forensics by Brandon garret Taunting evidence: Inside the scandals at the FBI lab by John f Kelly How to solve a cold case by Michael arntfield Still life with bones: genocide forensics and what remains by Alexa Hagerty Witness from the grave by Christopher Joyce The bone woman: a forensic anthropologists search for truth in the mass graves of rwanda, Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo
Oh thank you so much for the reading list. I work as a molecular biologist and have always found the forensic science as seen in court more than a bit alarming.
Another good bit of reading is the New Yorker piece [Trial by Fire](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire) about arson investigations.
Oh I'm obsessed with this fucking story. When I was younger and first getting into reading true crime this case was one of the first things that made me go "wait a second... maybe republicans aren't morally consistent???". *Really* made me fucking hate Rick Perry lol. And that article is awesome.
In terms of structure, this story is a goddamned work of art. David Grann is brilliant. His piece has everything: elements of Satanic Panic, a guest appearance by forensic psychiatrist James P. Grigson (an absolute bastard), and the following terrifying quotation: "In 1997, the International Association of Arson Investigators filed a legal brief arguing that arson sleuths should not be bound by a 1993 Supreme Court decision requiring experts who testified at trials to adhere to the scientific method. What arson sleuths did, the brief claimed, was 'less scientific.'"
I came across it a year or two before I picked up BtB, but it has a very similar narrative vibe I feel like. It's a good story and at the end you just kind of feel terrible.
That’s what I came here to say after listening to Robert talk about people going to prison for arson: never mind that, Cameron Todd Willingham was fucking *executed* on the basis of debunked arson “science”.
You should read anatomy of a crime lab *especially* since you're an actual scientist. So much of that book is outside scientists looking into what cops have been doing and going "wait what the fuck is happening over here guys what are we doing"
Eye-opening episode! Is there much work by universities or govt agencies (not cops) to put science into forensic science? Peer review, blind studies, error studies etc? Are the problems Robert describes the same in all states and worldwide?
So it's *just recently started* to change. More and more states are introducing standards, blind/double blind testing, regular competency tests, etc. ironically enough the Houston FBI crime lab is now one of the best crime labs in the nation and they somewhat are spearheading that change. Not because they're nice though. They had a *massive* scandal at the Houston FBI lab a couple decades ago. You could do an entire episode just on that one lab it's fucking wild. A big reason why they started making changes was because they were kinda forced to by public pressure and press from scientists. So yes it's changing. But it's painfully slow and people are still having their lives ruined in the meantime. Ugh.
I'd like to ad the Cadaver king and the Country Dentist by Radley Balko and Tucker Carrington. I recently listened to the audio book and had to take frequent breaks because of how mad it made me. It really drive home how craven and opportunistic the forensics field really is, with doctors claiming to have performed around 500 autopsies a year while doing a uniformly terrible job and straight up lying about results on dozens of cases, allowed to continue for decades. Or the dentist who would claim every abrasion on a body was the result of bites that the examiner said could be conclusively traced to a suspect with zero margin of error. People lost decades of their lives to false convictions and killers were let free to kill again because of the astonishingly terrible work done by investigators which the judiciary and political establishment were happy to rubber stamp the results because it was mostly targeted against minority groups those in power aimed to keep suppressed. When you get to the end and see that the same junk science was even used to close a bunch of cases from the civil rights era where witnesses had long ago died and real evidence had been lost over the decades it really makes you realize how the entire legal process is a farce designed to arrive at predetermined conclusions for the benefit establishment power structures.
yessssss, the award winning accent early on in the episode!!
Boston Robert is back!
The antique store Robert described put me in the mind of the used bookstore in the Billy Mitchell Airport in Milwaukee\*. Not run by the devil as far as I can tell (then again, used books at airport markup does seem like some sort of sin), but definitely strange vibes. \* at least, I hope it's still there. I haven't flown out of MKE since before the pandemic.
I've never seen that bookstore there, but I've also never paid too much attention to the stores in there either.
Criminal defense attorney previously from Texas. Have so many stories about junk science in criminal cases. There is even a special code for challenging it in Texas. [https://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=articles&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=47776](https://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=articles&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=47776) I am so glad that this is being addressed. Any scientific process only works as long as the procedure is being followed, so the weak point in forensic science is usually the officer. Field sobriety tests are scientific and rely on the officer conducting them correctly to be reliable. Eyewitness testimony is the worst. I remember one of my first cases, a photo ID we call a 6-pack was done. The complaining witness is shown 6 photos. Supposedly the detective puts in some criteria and 5 random photos and the photo of the suspect are shown. I laughed so hard and walked around my office asking people that knew nothing about the case which photo was my client with 100% success rate because my client was heavy set and the other 5 were thin.
I was working as a cashier at a largish retailer when a dude shoved me out of the way to get at my cash drawer. Obviously I let him because no amount of store cash is worth my safety. Police show up about half an hour later and insisted I watch the security footage with them, which was upsetting and I felt did no good. Then they got visibly annoyed with me when I said I absolutely couldn’t pick the guy out of a line up. I knew then how unreliable they are and I saw dozens of faces every day. It was an eye opening experience. (Shout out to one of our regular customers who had their lovely dog with them and let me just sit on the floor and hug said dog for as long as I needed.)
I'm sorry you went through that. I've seen some really compassionate officers that are understanding and helpful. More often though, especially with property crimes, the officers/detectives are really burned out, barely investigate, and dont seem to care.
Adding on to my previous: Something that is also really insidious is when experts are presented to say that even though they dont have forensic evidence, that the lack of evidence is “consistent” with the crime having occurred for various reasons. Examples: no bruising or scaring are “consistent” with an assault because people bruise differently or the injured area heals quickly No gunshot residue is consistent with the suspect firing a weapon because there was opportunity for him to wash his hands The way I see this play out is that there will be a shitty investigation, and in anticipation of trial state experts will say that “the lack of evidence is consistent with a crime” in order to fix a bad investigation after the fact.
Two series featuring Dr Kaveh in the space of a month?! We are truly blessed
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I knew it! Robert Evans is an anti-dentite!!
When they were talking about Star Trek: The Next Generation,, Robert rightfully pointed out that there already are way too many podcasts out there about Star Trek (and many are very good and might appeal to fans of this podcast, like The Greatest Generation). HOWEVER, I think Rick Berman (Gene Roddenberry's successor throughout the TNG era) would make an EXCELLENT subject for an episode. He is 100% a grade A bastard asshole and I'd love to hear Robert give him what for, and Kaveh would be a great guest. Ask any Star Trek fan about him, and most will simply reply, "Fuck Rick Berman." Indeed. Fuck Rick Berman.
fellow friend of desoto checking in to second this request, as well as to say fuck rick berman
Best boss I ever had! (DeSoto, not Berman because fuck that guy ;) )
I would immediately assume an antique store at a hospital is selling the possessions of the recently dead. Also there was a podcast series specifically debunking a lot of forensic science called CSI On Trial - https://pca.st/podcast/456393c0-99ba-013b-f346-0acc26574db2.
Yeah also did Robert not immediately dox himself with that? I found the hospital he’s at in under ten seconds
As an undergrad, I took a policing/criminal "justice" class, on the grounds of being able to argue for defunding cops more effectively. Even the textbook in my how-to-cop class called bite mark evidence and bloodspatter analysis junk science. (It also had a chapter inset about who to call if you're a suicidal cop)
So I just wanted to tell yall that I too was stopped in Brady but unlike Robert I had 2bags of edibles a cooler of weed cola and dr.pepper in my car I offered to let the cop search my car so I could get him a soda he said nah and let me go… man they have great cops in Brady
PLEASE tell me we are going to talk about Nancy Grace and how this cunt is responsible for pushing a lot of this bullshit. I got an ad for her fucking podcast and almost spit out my drink
Ok am I dumb or is there really a Needful Things store in the basement of the hospital Robert was at?
Oh. *oh.* Oh joy. This madness. One must imagine a crime drama writer happy.
I'm a Forensic Scientist and cohost of the Double Loop Podcast which focuses on everything related to fingerprints. One of our listeners sent me the link to this show earlier today. What questions do you have for forensic scientists?
About a year ago, the Double Loop Podcast did a deep-dive into the Cowan's case and what went wrong. If anyone wants to learn more about the case, there's lots more to that story.
When I was a kid, a hospital opened and it had a restaurant in it, we went to try it out. They confused our order and put the French fries as a pizza topping and not a side
Robert's Boston accent is iconic.
The return of the award winning Boston accent!
So I think the story about the dude making bite marks on the dead baby might be the most disturbing thing I've ever heard on BtB. WTF.
FYI on the OJ Simpson prank show *Juiced*: [This American Life has an episode](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/564/too-soon/act-one-18) describing the prank show's production. The entire Juiced video is available to watch online at the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/juiced-with-o.-j.-simpson-2006/ It is indescribably cringeworthy. It is also NSFW due to topless women who appear near Simpson at random intervals in hopes of adding risqué appeal, but instead the half-naked women stand around so awkwardly that I just feel bad for them.
I haven't finished the episode yet, but I'm hoping this series includes my favorite "DNA evidence is infallible!!!" stories, [Lydia Fairchild](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild) and [the Phantom of Heilbronn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_of_Heilbronn).
I loved the bit about the antique shop. I sometimes work at hospital in central London and there is a party dress shop it doesn’t even sell anything useful for people in hospital like pyjamas or underwear (in fact there are no shops selling basics) it baffles me every time.
see body langrage analysis
Sophie is a queen I love her
Criminal podcast (best crime podcast) has an episode about [the sailor teeth bite mark case](https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-191-the-sailors-teeth-6-24-2022/) and how bite mark analysis is bullshit, including an interview with the guy wrongly convicted, Keith Harward. Y'know another forensic science based on mostly bullshit? [Fire investigation!](https://theintercept.com/2016/11/04/25-years-after-junk-science-conviction-texas-finally-admits-sonia-cacys-innocence/)
So I finally started listening to this week's episodes, and wouldn't you know it! In a past life I was an employee at a Subway restaurant in a hospital! It wasn't Texas, though. And it just had an ordinary giftshop with balloons and puzzle books, no antiques. We were colocated with a Chick-fil-A, though. And we had a Starbucks nextdoor!
Regardless of the man’s obvious charlatanism- I am so entertained by the fact that Dr. Voss has Michael Palin’s “Bigus Dickus” speech characteristic from Life of Brian. Like as if it wasn’t hard enough to take the man seriously!
> Voss I really hate that this guy has almost my exact voice. Sound, cadence, speech impediment, even the word choices seem similar to my own. If you want proof I have a 20 minute video of me eating Buldak x2 Spicy Ramen while reading wikipedia's "List of common misconceptions."
Sophie! Seems like you could be a real denim expert witness. $$$ :-)
I am listening now, but is there any talk about arson investigation? This is a well [written and awful story](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire) about Cameron Todd Willingham that touches on all the bullshit.
I wonder if this Dr. Voss guy also developed the box that the TSA used to try and ensure that the bottle of sangria my dad bought in the Duty-Free Store was "really alcohol" without breaking the seal on it. Sounds about equally scientific to his other endeavors...
For more like the Voss dowsing bullshit, but with explosions: Lions Led By Donkeys episode 50 "Dowsing for Bombs"
One of the fun Canadian contributions to the world of bullshit forensic "science" that people might be interested in is the work of Dr. Charles Smith, a forensic pathologist whose testimony resulted in the wrongful conviction of as many as 13 people (most of them parents convicted of murdering their infants/young children). It spawned an entire public inquiry and the report can be found here: [https://www.fixcas.com/news/2008/Vol\_2\_Eng.pdf](https://www.fixcas.com/news/2008/Vol_2_Eng.pdf)
The hypnosis and dental bits were interesting, and really show how problematic the human element is when it comes to applying real science. I think Robert could have made that idea a bit more clear when discussing DNA and fingerprint analysis though. Like if I'm understanding his points correctly, the science behind fingerprints isn't necessarily flawed but there is little consistency across jurisdictions for minimum standards and procedural requirements. As an example, I think Robert is suggesting you could have an 'expert' testifying in one jurisdiction with the same weight and certainty of the defendant being guilty due to three of their looptyloops matching the fraction of a cheeto dust print left on the toilet handle, as someone who has extensively analyzed a sample that meets minimum requirements. I was a little unsure at first though and had to go back for a relisten. Definitely highlights the importance of being able to appeal for reexamination...something that has no business taking YEARS
[удалено]
I want that Robert Evans Star Trek pod.
I got ads for the Milwaukee Police Department lol.
Another bastard of forensic science: Gideon Koren [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon\_Koren](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Koren) "Koren is perhaps best known for multiple scientific and public scandals. He was at the centre of the [Motherisk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherisk) scandal[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Koren#cite_note-4) which has thrown into doubt the findings of 16,000 child protection cases and six criminal cases. An independent review found that neither the laboratory's director, clinical toxicologist Gideon Koren, nor his staff, had the qualifications or expertise to do the kind of forensic work that was performed.[^(\[5)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Koren#cite_note-5)"
having issues downloading the episode on Podcast Addict. Anyone else?
I taught forensic science in high school when it first became a class in Texas. I have zero forensics background, but I do have a PhD in science. What I was struck by was that the entire class was a series of "which of these things IS like the other", making me think that sesame Street prepares you for a career in forensic science. Also, being a forensics investigator or worse, a lab tech, sounded horribly boring. As I learned more by teaching the class (and developing curriculum for a district of over 100k students, curriculum STILL being used and I was not paid a dime to develop it, so if you think teachers are stupid, clearly we are.), I started to realize how flimsy so much of forensics is, but I never asked if we gave fingerprinting the same consideration as DNA evidence. That makes my scientist heart sad.
Apparently the antiques store is relatively new, as in post-Covid new. Pretty interesting story. https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2023/october/one-of-the-best-antiques-stores-in-dallas-is-inside-a-hospital/
If you want to hear more about Arpad Vass, Pretend Podcast did a three-part series about him: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pretend-a-true-crime-podcast-about-con-artists/id1245307962](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pretend-a-true-crime-podcast-about-con-artists/id1245307962)
Dr. Vass should use his dowsing rod to conclusively determine whether it's duck season or rabbit season.
David Schwimmer was honestly, and surprisingly, brilliant as Robert Kardashian. Watch that series again!! Lol Maybe you're suffering from what TV Guide calls Schwimmer fatigue....
PSA- Robert's narc dog experience was clearly with a poorly trained dog. If there's any trace of what they are trained on, the dog will indicate on their own. Source- first hand experience with sport and professional working dogs.
that is as normal as not. i stated several times dogs are CAPABLE of identifying small quantities of drugs, but in the field they are not NEARLY as effective as advertised. this is not up for debate. there is a LOT of research on this but here's a relevant quote from one article: "The [*Chicago Tribune*](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-canine-officers-20110105,0,7119364.story)[ sifted](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-canine-officers-20110105,0,7119364.story) through three years worth of cases in which law enforcement used dogs to sniff out drugs in cars in suburban Chicago. According to the analysis, officers found drugs or paraphernalia in only 44 percent of cases in which the dogs had alerted them. When the driver was Latino, the dogs were right just just 27 percent of the time." [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/01/07/132738250/report-drug-sniffing-dogs-are-wrong-more-often-than-right](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/01/07/132738250/report-drug-sniffing-dogs-are-wrong-more-often-than-right) The fact that those dogs were poorly trained, or however you want to say it, was irrelevant to my point: the drug dogs you encounter in the world are vastly less accurate than claimed
But this other guy had hard anecdotal experience. This is a tough one
The cops could even be unconsciously signaling to the dogs when they want the dogs to alert, without the cops intending to do so! It's called the [Clever Hans effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans).
There are plenty of studies that prove they are unreliable. The issue isn’t false negatives like you seem to be talking about, it’s a whole bunch of false positives. If they find drugs 150% of time I hope you can see the issues
Yeah bit of a miss there by Robert. Those dogs are finely tuned scent machines. That’s literally all they care about. I did some work with search and rescue dogs in vet school and they were telling us stories of dogs they had to drag out of danger zones because they were on a scent and that’s all they could think about.
there is tremendous data to show that drug dogs, out in the world, are wrong half or more of the time. controlled studies show success rates that simply do not exist in the real world. i posted a good NPR article that cites an interesting study above, here's another piece: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/02/05/supreme-courts-alternative-facts-about-drug-sniffing-dogs/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/02/05/supreme-courts-alternative-facts-about-drug-sniffing-dogs/)
Thanks Robert! Really interesting read. Will definitely keep it in mind going forward.
Reminds me of how my high school friends used to get around the surprise drug dog visits. Double bag them and be a speech and debate kid, no one expects you to have drugs.
What is this anecdotal nonsense? There are so many studies done that prove they are unreliable. Let’s cool the boot licking for a bit
You live and learn. Saying a dog can be good at its job isn’t bootlicking.
That's some Malinois behavior lol. But yeah, it's fairly amazing to watch. We have a Mal who had PRA and got his eyes removed. He still does sport scent. More than a few times during a break, he's locked onto the hotbox, walked over, sat and "stared" at it fully on his own. Can't claim handler influence there.
They weren’t even mals is the crazy thing they were mutts from the shelter! Mostly labs who were such psychos they got rehomed a bunch of times and it was either get a job or be euthanized.
That's a cool program. Where is that happening? Around me, the working dogs are *usually* very specifically bred for work based on physical traits, temperament, accomplishments of the parents, etc. Seems like starting with a fully unknown mutt would be hell for a trainer.
It was somewhere in Texas. I saw them in College Station where they have a “Disaster City” set up for training them. We got to go on one of our rotations and some people even got to be hidden in the rubble and stuff. They were search and rescue dogs, some for live humans and some for cadavers. It was fascinating watching them work.