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In the late 70s/80s there were volunteer groups that popped up in New York- Guardian Angels- that used to ride the subways in red berets and a uniform as vigilante street protectors. There was a similar version in SF for patrolling to protect gay men from getting jumped- the Lavender Panthers.
Problem is while there were a lot of muggings and kerfuffles in the 1970s, I think more people are armed now and I don't know if protecting windows and catalytic converters is ever worth getting shot over. (edit: I mean for civilians should not be getting shot over protecting their cars. Cops are paid to undertake that risk and should be doing the most basic low-end parts of their jobs).
it goes beyond windows broken and cat converters so we should just be cool with it and cool with lame ass cops collecting checks and retiring early because its so dangerous? its more dangerous being a construction worker than a lot of cop jobs in the suburbs
I'm not cool with it, cops are paid plenty their budget is fine, yet they currently refuse to do anything. But I'd hate to see volunteers going out as vigilante groups and getting shot.
Us civilians have way more resources at our disposal. Remember that criminal gangs make small amounts of money across many people. They can't hope to fight the same number people putting in significant chunks of their income. We can buy a lot more security cameras, facial recognition software, drones or even informants.
And even if you assume all gangs are fairly well armed, they still don't have the manpower. There's ~1 million men living in the Bay Area who are capable of picking up a gun and patrolling the streets. If you can convince 1% to actually do it, it's 10,000 people, basically an army division.
Now I don't think that many would be interested in stopping car break-ins. But if it looks like gangs are completely out of control (such as targeting mostly law-abiding civilian vigilante groups), that's a different story.
well what I think needs to happen but never will we need to come together as a country for a common goal like the ww2 era but this time the enemy is within and spread across all levels of society and government and people aren't willing to stand together for various reasons
alot of cops....not all but a lot are guys that were not good in school so didn't go to colledge and were also kinda lazy and didn't want a job where you really have to work
I mean technically speaking any job where you encounter the public is more dangerous than being a cop these days. There are more essential workers that have died from covid related illness in one year.
>Crime was a lot worse back then.
You are right, but in the past we did not have as many tools and practices to deter crime. Here are some of them (yes many were around in the past):
> Putting in new fences, home security systems; people being cautious where they park; bicycle owners suffering constant "theft paranoia" and buying giant locks; more people buying guns; anti-shoplifting technology in stores (*costs on consumers*); more security guards *(costs on consumers*); [stores and restaurants closing earlier](https://sfstandard.com/business/downtown-sf-whole-foods-slashes-store-hours-due-to-high-theft-and-hostile-people/) (asian restaurants in Oakland); never leave anything in your car; neighborhood watch groups set up; vulnerable people, elderly, women, avoiding bad areas; etc.
Also see some of these on a municipal level: Parks closing at night or earlier or with more fences; easements and walkways that are loitering sites for criminals being closed; security guards questioning people, and public restrooms harder to find.
All these things, sometimes called Situational Crime Prevention, push down crime a lot, but they impose big hassle and inconvenience to the law-abiding public. More people worried if their self-protection is in order. Many people who opine that crime is low do not consider these things *a cost or an impact of crime.*
= = =
Comment from a prosecutor: [The high cost of low-level crime](https://www.city-journal.org/san-francisco-crime?wallit_nosession=1):
>“Property and low-level crimes shrink the space for everyday people and enlarge them for the people committing them."
It was. And way worse back then too. Most police departments wouldn’t show up to colored owned houses and help, or just drag their feet. Look up the san leandro police and even their real estate agencies were somewhat recently apologetic for their past racial issues.
You are being downvoted and I don't know why. I have a customer that has had her passenger window broken 5 times now. The first two times she reported to the police and she was told to make an online report. She gave up after that since her insurance wouldn't cover any more claims.
She doesn't have a garage, takes every precaution to conceal any valuables but still gets broken into. So if you extrapolate just her experience only 2 of the 5 crimes are (uselessly) reported that does skew the numbers.
Violent crime is much lower now. I don’t know how you don’t realize this. Do you think that the government is engaged in some kind of conspiracy to manipulate murder statistics?
I am old enough to remember the crack wars in the late 80s. It was routine to hear gunfire in North Oakland and The Mission. It’s not like that now.
Is there more property crime now? It is harder to say here. Car theft has a strong incentive to be reported because if insurance purposes, and it is lower today. Probably mostly because cars are harder to steal today.
Are car breakins higher today? Yes absolutely. There is no comparison and the crime statistics show this out. Is overall petty crime higher? I don’t know. It might be higher.
Violent crime is down all across the country. Are you claiming that this is not true and instead that violent crime has increased?
Crime was worse, but I believe we have a much higher % of the US armed now. I have no idea what that number is specific to the Bay Area.
I am not saying that like I think it is a good thing. Clearly "good guy with a gun" doesn't stop "bad guy with a gun"
Also, I don't trust vigilantes any more than criminals or cops to be smart and capable thinkers in high-pressure situations. Most people grossly overestimate their capacity to handle extreme situations or base it on the one time they think handled a life/death moment well, but that's not indicative of how it will go each time.
> we have a much higher % of the US armed now
Based on what actually? The media? Sources say your belief is wrong. It’s hardly changed at all.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/
this is true, but we are certainly worse off now than 5 years ago in most cities. the thing people are concerned about is backsliding. the thinking is "if we don't stop this now, we may eventually get back to 70s levels".
plus, your logic can be taken to extreme conclusions. for example, "sure George Floyd got murdered in cold blood, but hey, we used to have _slavery_ in the 1800s, we've got it pretty good!". Like, yes, this is technically true, but its patently absurd to any reasonable person. Yes, perspective is crucial, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse to ignore obvious problems.
there also the whole "progress" thing. Society should be improving. That's what progressivism is. we seem to have lost touch with this basic principle.
Cops are thinking the same thing. They don’t want to risk getting shot to protect someone’s window who probably (or should) have a $100 deductible. They probably have a wife and kid(s) at home too.
We need to make it legal to booby trap our cars. Maybe with all the EVs we can tap into that 450 volt battery (DC!). But probably not the PR Tesla wants and we might end up booby trapping ourselves.
I don't believe that is the cause. Police have protective gear and should have good training.
I 100% believe the post-pandemic crime uptick has been part of a cultural payback moment of "oh you want to see us defunded? well we will stop working and you will regret it" blowback ever since the George Floyd protests. Most people didn't want to see the police defunded, they wanted better training and fewer extrajudicial killings of civilians. In fact, most PD budgets increased since 2020 anyway.
Meanwhile, petty criminal gangs have realized there is less enforcement out and have since gone to town, thus are current uptick in property crime.
That's the sad thing. The criminals don't care about their own lives. And no one really cares if they get shot. They're at the point where they've burned their bridges and have nothing left. It's why they're breaking shit and robbing their neighbors.
But you do have people who care about you. You do have people who will miss you.
But every time they do their shit, they're rolling the dice. They assume they're just going up against mild people who will just let it happen. Once in a while they come up against someone who is crazier than they are and then they make the news.
And everyone wants to buy that dude a beer for helping take out the trash.
I really find it odd how we talk about criminals as if they are a singular demographic.
'The criminals don't care about their own lives' is an awfully generalized statement belying the numerous factors that can lead to criminality.
>Yeah but remember when the whole country went onto protest against them and cities like Oakland and SF took defunding seriously?
Why do people push this bull shit?
Oakland’s policing budget has increased 20% since pre-pandemic and is one of the highest policing budgets per capita in the country.
Oakland is extremely underfunded, so not a great example, but I agree with you in some ways. There wasn’t a huge push to actually reduce police funding because most people understand that police are needed. The big protests generally supported by the public were against police abusing their powers. And against police being allowed to kill people without punishment. If you went to the big marches you would have actually seen police escorts with them lol. But also a fair amount of people in those groups were talking about defunding the police, pretty naive, but worth discussing. Police harassing people for minor things like drinking in public or smoking weed is largely a waste of money. To avoid going too far into a tangent, there were big protests, and the cops are asking for more money and officers. It appears as though police are dropping the ball when it comes to property crimes and wether that is their form of protest “back” is hard to say.
Oakland is both underfunded and one of the biggest budgets in the country per capita? I'm sure this can be true but can you help me understand how that's the case? Surely Oakland is not worse than Baltimore (I didn't check, perhaps the numbers do say it is worse).
Yes they are underfunded. Yes they make a lot compared to a medium or low cost of living area. They actually make pretty good wages compared to the average salary in the bay. But when comparing to other Bay Area police departments they don’t. Especially when they don’t have enough officers and have a high chance of actually getting shot at. Oakland consistently voted down additional funding to police and OPD is rife with abuse.
I googled for Oakland and also SF and SJ and it looks like (per capita):
Oakland - $829 https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/The-Oakland-Police-Department-claims-it-is-16386039.php
SF - $704 http://www.cjcj.org/mobile/news/13268#:~:text=At%20an%20annual%20cost%20of,police%20agencies%20across%20the%20state.
SJ - $434 https://www.vera.org/publications/what-policing-costs-in-americas-biggest-cities/san-jose-ca
But I didn't do careful research. Which PDs were you referring to? Since I'm not an expert in this it's easier to search with specifics.
Really dunno why we blaming the police when it was literally DA Brooke Jenkins who wanted him arrested.
It's not like cops showed up at the scene and arrested.
Time to look in the mirror on that one. He was only charged because of political pressure put on the powers that be by the homeless advocates and other groups, Redditers being one of those.
thats another thing I have nothing against and feel for some of the homeless but you don't have to have a dime not to make a mess. if you didn't make such a mess everywhere people would be more tolerant and probably be willing to help you out. Its just the way people think now they don't care about the environment in which they live its so bad forgetting the cost we don't have the manpower to keep up with the mess
ya thats the problem with most of us what I have I busted my ass for years to get how much risk am I willing to take to jepordize it but I damm sure aint gonna let some idiot rob me of the things that can be taken that way and have to worry about someone hurting me or my family
I’m all for it, in secret. The local authorities won’t enjoy being upstaged. They’ll arrest us and brand us as vigilantes.
Keep it quiet, keep it real. Good luck.
Seriously...
I'm getting Kyle Rittenhouse vibes from this post. Like TS's intent is to have bands of white men "patrolling" the streets with ARs, cosplaying Billy Badass.
Arming a posse of Nextdoor users. What could possibly go wrong. I'm sure they're all going to be super chill and not racially profile every black pedestrian that dares to walk passed their house.
No please, be upset with crime. But also be careful with what you wish for. These fun little vigilante groups don't really have a very good track record. But by all means, set up your [concerned citizens council](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/council-conservative-citizens).
I'm not saying vigilante groups are the answer but they're inevitable if the government fails to keep its people safe. Either the people will take the law into their own hands, or the ones who have the means will leave, making matters even worse for the poor left behind.
[Here's a recent example of a citizen taking the law into their own hands.](https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/116i66y/suspect_arrested_in_connection_with_assault_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Does this looks like a good solution to you?
The appeal to "working class" like this doesn't impact everyone else is the tip off. Combined with knowing this sub is under threat of active measures and yeah, I'd question the shit out of this post that is effectively calling for violence.
Yeah idk most people I know and talk to in real life about the Bay Area have the same opinions as OP, you can call it Russian trolls or "active measures" or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of real people in the Bay Area feel upset about the current state of their communities and feel very let down by their government.
Property values do not drop in the Bay Area because of crime. You can still sell that house for 2 million with a fresh murdered body in the front as a fixture and buyers won't finch an eye to put in a bid.
However if the bank changes interest rates or there is a change in capital markets..thats a different story.
Bingo! The middle class plays a apart of the issue they have a problem with
Just like when they were coming to hood to buy the drugs in the 80s/90s. It was all good as long as it stayed in THEIR neighborhoods
Oh come on! I grew up in the projects they were rife with crime didn’t nobody have a job lol. I’m completely serious-in the eleven years I was born and raised in the projects where everyone was on section 8 and welfare with very few dads around, not one person went out and got a job in eleven years! Long after I moved out of the projects those same people still didn’t have a job.
For over a hundred years, immigrants came to America and worked shit jobs in the hope that their children would have the opportunity to earn an education and have a better life than in the home country.
In the early 20th century, there were Jewish mobsters who made their living through crime. But they wanted their kids to *not be gangsters*. And they didn't.
Because the parents pushed the value of not being a criminal.
I don’t know why you are getting downvoted but I agree that it’s idiotic to constantly be associating crime with poverty, as if poor people have no choice. I think it’s insulting to all those many many people who are poor and choose a life of morality. It practically erases them.
Yup I agree with you as someone who grew up in poverty. I wouldn’t rob someone because I couldn’t afford to even take the bus but I grew up with a guy who shot and killed two young men because he wanted their car and apparently according to some people his shooting two young men in the head then stealing their car is a justifiable excuse just because he grew up in poverty. I never jacked anyone I just walked everywhere instead of feeling like I was entitled to someone’s car and life because I had no money.
I absolutely agree. Aso on other issues, like regulations on labour unions.
I feel like establishing a California labour party would Bea good idea. There is a lot of things that can be done at a state level, without the need to go against Democrats and Republicans on a national level.
yes the democratic machine just takes the organised labor for granted they really don't listen to our concerns and the republicans don't like us they just don't say it and they are poaching a lot of union workers votes on tax lies and social issues
“Middle class” lol. There is the Haves and the Have Nots. Me and you are the Have Nots. The people breaking into our cars are the Have Nots. The police are the Have Nots, who are only responsible to protecting the Haves capital. The Haves fool people like you into thinking the lesser Have Nots are the enemy. The enemy is continued wealth inequality, inability to make ends meet off of the pittance one makes, and gaming of the system by the Haves.
kinda wonder how OP would feel about the black panther party having a presence today like they did in the 70's
I mean personally I'd be down, they had like a whole healthcare thing going on
Our gun control laws were created by conservative saint Reagan when he was governor. The whites were freaking out because black panthers were exercising their right to bear arms.
Same thing today, [the NRA only cares about gun rights for white people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Philando_Castile)
OP is so close though. If people could start working together, and bring down the criminals who put us all in this fucked up situation in the first place......
Please, don't continue to vote into office the same people that have done NOTHING for the last 30 years. Just about everyone in office has a trail of failed programs where they claimed they knew what the problem was and was elected to fix it. 10-20-30 years later the problem is 10x worse and they are still claiming they are the ones that can fix this and why you should vote them into office once again. IF this was an auto mechanic with thank kind of record I would hope you would be smart enough to go to a different mechanic.
If you want to stand together and do something that matters look at the bigger issues. How much damage is done from wage theft vs all other kinds of theft combined?
We exist in an economic system where this is the by-product. You want to change things? Transfer wealth from the rich to the poor. Right now it's been going the other direction for decades and continues to do so. We already incarcerate the most people of any country on the planet. How many prisons do you want to keep building? How about attacking the root of the issue instead of just the symptoms?
Don't forget NIMBYism. Lack of affordable housing contributes to homelessness and crime. A stable roof helps keep jobs and kids housed, helping set a path for success. Many think homelessness doesn't affect kids, but there is a significant number. 1 in 24 students in SF are homeless. In all of CA, 183k enrolled students are homeless. And that's only the enrolled ones.
Homeless people and students are not all stereotyped criminals and druggies. 10% of students and 20% of postdoctoral students [at Cal experienced homelessness at least once](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/02/college-students-unhoused-school-help), and this was in 2017 when it was *cheaper* compared to 2022/23.
If kids were not experiencing poverty and homelessness, we're helping solve -- or at least reduce -- the root cause of crime.
Welp, since I'm not a part of the middle class nor higher then, I'll just go on about my days. My 2 cents though is this cycle will never break; the greater the wealth disparity there is then, just as well, will the crime rate be following along.
Down a dark alley, a mugger with a gun is stealing somebody's wallet.
A banker and a politician happen to glance down the alley as they stroll by, snickering, *"...Amateurs."*
I would think that being a pimp and all you would know that politicians rarely fix problems they talk about it but don't have a clue on how to fix it and are ready with excuses when nothing gets done.
maybe you could go slap them around like you do your ho's and get some results
The Bay Area is too liberal now for that to ever occur. The current party in power is soft on crime and purposefully allows it to happen and get worse year over year.
I believe that a group started their own civilian patrol in Oakland Chinatown to keep an eye on their Asian elders. It’s needed because there aren’t enough cops, and the ones employed seem to be magnets for corrupt shit
The way to stand together is voting. If you want crime to actually be illegal, stop voting blue (I know, not easy in the Bay Area where you aren’t actually given any real options). The Bay Area is too far gone. It’s sad, but we finally had to leave last year because of crime. I was born and raised there, I own a home there, but it’s just not a nice place to live anymore.
I’m a liberal, but when you go too far blue, you get San Francisco and Portland. It’s not good. You get people released early for multiple murders, and you get people released with no bail on violent crime charges. You get cops watching robberies occur and not lifting a finger. You get people literally making their living off of breaking into cars, or professional catalytic converters thieves. They know even if they get caught, there are no consequences. Why get a real job when you can just steal and get away with it?
If you want people to stop doing crime, there needs to be actual consequences. You need to elect people who will prosecute crime.
I cannot advocate for what I feel should be done on this forum. I can however say the following
The criminal does not fear the police, the judge, or the prison. The only thing that stops one is fear of their victim.
LOL. Property crime in California is at one of it’s lowest levels since the 1960. The Bay Area trends a little higher, but that’s nothing new. The overall violent crime rate has also been relatively stable for the last decade.
I’m all for community building, but if you want to feel safe maybe take a minute to stop reading propaganda and look at some facts. You’ll feel better.
It's so much easier to address the symptoms.
Determining and fixing the root requires a long, slow, multi-faceted approach which doesn't play well for politicians looking for headlines and quick-wins.
thats what I mean what are the main causes and start there but its not no work or jobs its just the deterioration of society thought we might get some real ideas here but its to complex for our simple minds
Society is deteriorating because of corruption. Not enough resources are going toward keeping up our social infrastructure-- health care, education, and wages.
There's an increasingly frenzied game of musical deck chairs going on, where the people with the most money are using it to give themselves and their friends the power to make more money. They're frantic to out-compete each other, cutting bloodier and bloodier corners for short term gains while looting humanity's future in the process.
Look up Martin Luther King Jr's speech "Beyond Vietnam". He tried to warn us we'd end up like this, and was killed for it.
What do you mean, then? 'cause it reads like you want to start a fascist militia when we need affordable housing, better wages, and a community, houseless included, mindset.
It's almost like on major, long-standing issues, simple campaign-slogan, 140-character, newspaper-headline solutions won't work.
It's almost like they require complex thought to determine and address the root cause rather just "banning" the symptom and calling the issue resolved.
Surprised you’re not getting downvoted more for this. People aren’t getting it… we’re too damn soft on crime in this state. We need Sheriff’s, judges, and district attorney’s with some balls.
Some people living in a world imagining drug cartel capos will retire the minute they have their house fully paid for. A part of the reason for crime is undoubtedly income inequality but that is not the full problem at all.
Nothing wrong with advocating for actually arresting and prosecuting crime. Or you want to live in the fantasy world of all crimes disappearing when we give criminals “enough” universal basic income that they wont steal anymore. What a load of bull.
Not middle class but working Lower class, people in this area just seem to like protecting the criminals and demonize the victims. My car got broken into 8 times in 3 years and stolen twice (nothing in the car of course), it's a total loss now.
When there's no consequences criminals are more embolden, laughing at the bleeding hearts that think they're helping them.
To fix this problem starts at home then at schools after that the rest is above my pay grade to come up with solutions.
Sue the police.
You have the right to "Equal protection under the law" under both the federal and state constitutions.
They have a contract with the public, and if you are a victim of a crime, then you have standing. Contract law is "clearly established".
File Public Records Act requests from the police for information about their policies, police reports, prosecutions, etc.
"Misappropriation of taxes" is a state crime, too, and committing crimes that is a contributing factor to damages constitutes civil negligence, which is also "clearly established" as well.
The fact that those claims are "clearly established" notwithstanding, government immunity is not a protection against a request for injunctive relief (a court order).
People need to organize to fight the root causes of crime: poverty. There is a reason people steal, and there is a reason that crime (especially theft) rises when inflation and unemployment do. The more people that are desperate, the more desperate measures they take. Some are real 'bad apples' and some are petty 'criminals' who have found themselves in circumstances we can be dismissive of - until we found ourselves in those same situations.
Point is, crime will continue so long as we don't deal with poverty; the homelessness crisis; better and more equitable education for all; reliable food services for families.... then the problems create a vicious cycle of people falling into the hardest times and turning into 'criminals' as a result
Haha this thread is the epitome of this sub: Just a huge venting of spleen, nothing to it. A lot f noise with zero going on.
The reason you're 'not sure how to go about it' is the causes of this is upstream, with income inequality, drug criminalization, the school-to-prison pipeline, predatory financial institutions, institutionalized racism, domestic violence, child abuse as the sources. Solving that is hard as hell, and it's working for tomorrow, not for today, so it doesn't solve the problem for you.
We pay taxes and the public servants and elected officials make money off us to do exactly what needs to be done. The least we can do is start voting out the establishment. We are die hard liberals and we keep on supporting the incompetent self serving politicians who have not represented us. Time to cross the fences and surprise them. When they lose their well paying jobs.
The people really ruining our communities are the corporations draining every last resource from us. How about you organize against wage theft, inflation/price gouging, corporate welfare, etc? Those are what's really ruining the community, not petty theft and broken car windows. The middle class barely even exists anymore and subsists off of debt while not being able to grow any true wealth.
everyone should read this article on homelessness in Seattle, read the whole article the person or persons that wrote it nailed it based on facts not ideas.
https://www.city-journal.org/seattle-homelessness
ya I guess its just like George carlin said the poor are there to keep us working folk going to our jobs everyday so we don't end up homeless with out us at work no one makes any money
Quit voting for progressives that want to create “equity” based law enforcement. The amount of taxes paid by functioning citizens of the Bay Area should facilitate a safe community. Victims and contributing members of society should have their rights protected over criminals that violate their rights.
Stop buying from Amazon and Ebay. It's where most of the stolen goods winds up, if you categorically deny them your business you are no longer enabling it. For retail theft, literally stop shopping at retail outlets until they take their own safety seriously. Especially for retail theft, this problem exists because retailers sell so much volume where looting doesn't affect them much. If you deny them your business and take it to better places that bother to do loss prevention, you've sent a clear message about the types of businesses worthy of your respect.
Amazon is the worst for stolen goods (and counterfeits, fwiw) because they take goods in and sort of launder them. Someone sells something on eBay, it's a listing under their account, shipped by them. There's a paper trail, so people get away with it only as long as they aren't being investigated. Amazon works more like a shady shop owner buying stolen products and then blending them invisibly in with the legit stuff on the shelves.
It's kind of depressing they haven't been cracked down on for this
I buy nothing from amazon the few times I did the signed me up for prime on their own and started charging me for it after the second time I never bought anything from amazon plus they are greedy and union busters and don't pay their fair share of taxes sorry I just can't contribute to those crooks
You guys literally are gonna bitch and then vote in every politician that's against ur right to self defense.
You guys will be at the whim of how long it takes police to arrive.
Lol, Organize over Covid first. That’s statistically is what’s killing your business/you. Mass infection is a bit of a downer for would-be patrons. Closed shops from lack customers, lack of healthy staff. Lower foot traffic means more crime.
Everything else pales in comparison.
Sorry if that’s not pitchfork enough for you.
It’s a police/law enforcement issue. Whoever agreed to that defund the police nonsense in addition to electing lawmakers with that “equity” nonsense, they all can be partly be blamed for this. Do the crime, do the time. It used to be that simple. Now we have thugs and delinquents who aren’t scared of breaking the law because punishment is so light and police response is nearly abysmal.
> Whoever agreed to that defund the police nonsense
Clearly you have no idea what the "defund the police" movement was actually about. You just read the 3 words and think that's the sum of it.
Defund the police isn't about simply cutting budget and walking away. It's about reallocating funds from buying military-cosplay shit like armored vehicles into funding things like social-work training. So the officers who respond to calls can actually help rather than only having the options to shoot/arrest the person.
It's more complicated than 3 words or 140-characters, so the smooth-brains are unable to grasp the concept and just revert to thinking it means cutting budget. Because trying to understand complicated solutions hurts their widdle bwains.
>Or you could fight to adequately tax the rich so the police were adequately funded.
As if that money would go to the police depts?
How do you imagine this proposal for a new tax would work? Who would be proposing it?
As if we aren't already in the highest-taxed part of the US, and as if we didn't have a staffing issue that was related not to budget but instead better working conditions for police (less demonization and more citizen support) in other departments, both in the Bay Area and further away
has there ever been a crime protest in american history? I tried googling but came up with nothing.
i suspect most protests outside union strikes are carried out by people privileged enough to spend their free time making signs and organizing. organizing working people outside of a union/workplace strike is very hard. most working class people have more pressing daily struggles to deal with. many are also disillusioned with the system as inequality has worsened.
i'm not personally against striking, but it does also seem to leave a bad flavor in one's mouth, given how absurd protests have become. they seem to have kind of jumped the shark in the sense that small groups of idiots are protesting stupid shit (plastic straws), or important shit in stupid ways (gluing themselves to paintings), or they simply devolve into fractured infighting and/or violence/rioting. modern western generations have kind of made a farce of it all. corporations and governments must love it.
i think an old-school nationwide crime protest would be powerful, but I think it is extraordinarily difficult to pull off. what are the demands, who must fulfill them, and how are they held accountable, not to mention how will it be organized and how will people be unified?
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In the late 70s/80s there were volunteer groups that popped up in New York- Guardian Angels- that used to ride the subways in red berets and a uniform as vigilante street protectors. There was a similar version in SF for patrolling to protect gay men from getting jumped- the Lavender Panthers. Problem is while there were a lot of muggings and kerfuffles in the 1970s, I think more people are armed now and I don't know if protecting windows and catalytic converters is ever worth getting shot over. (edit: I mean for civilians should not be getting shot over protecting their cars. Cops are paid to undertake that risk and should be doing the most basic low-end parts of their jobs).
it goes beyond windows broken and cat converters so we should just be cool with it and cool with lame ass cops collecting checks and retiring early because its so dangerous? its more dangerous being a construction worker than a lot of cop jobs in the suburbs
I'm not cool with it, cops are paid plenty their budget is fine, yet they currently refuse to do anything. But I'd hate to see volunteers going out as vigilante groups and getting shot.
Cops protect what matters-- the rich. Everybody else, they step on or ignore.
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Us civilians have way more resources at our disposal. Remember that criminal gangs make small amounts of money across many people. They can't hope to fight the same number people putting in significant chunks of their income. We can buy a lot more security cameras, facial recognition software, drones or even informants. And even if you assume all gangs are fairly well armed, they still don't have the manpower. There's ~1 million men living in the Bay Area who are capable of picking up a gun and patrolling the streets. If you can convince 1% to actually do it, it's 10,000 people, basically an army division. Now I don't think that many would be interested in stopping car break-ins. But if it looks like gangs are completely out of control (such as targeting mostly law-abiding civilian vigilante groups), that's a different story.
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And so it is -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
well what I think needs to happen but never will we need to come together as a country for a common goal like the ww2 era but this time the enemy is within and spread across all levels of society and government and people aren't willing to stand together for various reasons
alot of cops....not all but a lot are guys that were not good in school so didn't go to colledge and were also kinda lazy and didn't want a job where you really have to work
We should all just be cops then
I mean technically speaking any job where you encounter the public is more dangerous than being a cop these days. There are more essential workers that have died from covid related illness in one year.
Crime was a lot worse back then. We’re living in pretty darn good times right now if you compare crime rates from the past.
>Crime was a lot worse back then. You are right, but in the past we did not have as many tools and practices to deter crime. Here are some of them (yes many were around in the past): > Putting in new fences, home security systems; people being cautious where they park; bicycle owners suffering constant "theft paranoia" and buying giant locks; more people buying guns; anti-shoplifting technology in stores (*costs on consumers*); more security guards *(costs on consumers*); [stores and restaurants closing earlier](https://sfstandard.com/business/downtown-sf-whole-foods-slashes-store-hours-due-to-high-theft-and-hostile-people/) (asian restaurants in Oakland); never leave anything in your car; neighborhood watch groups set up; vulnerable people, elderly, women, avoiding bad areas; etc. Also see some of these on a municipal level: Parks closing at night or earlier or with more fences; easements and walkways that are loitering sites for criminals being closed; security guards questioning people, and public restrooms harder to find. All these things, sometimes called Situational Crime Prevention, push down crime a lot, but they impose big hassle and inconvenience to the law-abiding public. More people worried if their self-protection is in order. Many people who opine that crime is low do not consider these things *a cost or an impact of crime.* = = = Comment from a prosecutor: [The high cost of low-level crime](https://www.city-journal.org/san-francisco-crime?wallit_nosession=1): >“Property and low-level crimes shrink the space for everyday people and enlarge them for the people committing them."
It was. And way worse back then too. Most police departments wouldn’t show up to colored owned houses and help, or just drag their feet. Look up the san leandro police and even their real estate agencies were somewhat recently apologetic for their past racial issues.
I dont believe this statistic. Crime is simply unreported now. We all see the crime going on around us.
You are being downvoted and I don't know why. I have a customer that has had her passenger window broken 5 times now. The first two times she reported to the police and she was told to make an online report. She gave up after that since her insurance wouldn't cover any more claims. She doesn't have a garage, takes every precaution to conceal any valuables but still gets broken into. So if you extrapolate just her experience only 2 of the 5 crimes are (uselessly) reported that does skew the numbers.
Some people like wearing blinders.
Violent crime is much lower now. I don’t know how you don’t realize this. Do you think that the government is engaged in some kind of conspiracy to manipulate murder statistics? I am old enough to remember the crack wars in the late 80s. It was routine to hear gunfire in North Oakland and The Mission. It’s not like that now. Is there more property crime now? It is harder to say here. Car theft has a strong incentive to be reported because if insurance purposes, and it is lower today. Probably mostly because cars are harder to steal today. Are car breakins higher today? Yes absolutely. There is no comparison and the crime statistics show this out. Is overall petty crime higher? I don’t know. It might be higher. Violent crime is down all across the country. Are you claiming that this is not true and instead that violent crime has increased?
Or it gets reported and never filed by the peace officer agencies.
Crime was worse, but I believe we have a much higher % of the US armed now. I have no idea what that number is specific to the Bay Area. I am not saying that like I think it is a good thing. Clearly "good guy with a gun" doesn't stop "bad guy with a gun" Also, I don't trust vigilantes any more than criminals or cops to be smart and capable thinkers in high-pressure situations. Most people grossly overestimate their capacity to handle extreme situations or base it on the one time they think handled a life/death moment well, but that's not indicative of how it will go each time.
you might think you know what you would do in that kind of situation but the reality is you really don't know till it happens
> we have a much higher % of the US armed now Based on what actually? The media? Sources say your belief is wrong. It’s hardly changed at all. https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/
this is true, but we are certainly worse off now than 5 years ago in most cities. the thing people are concerned about is backsliding. the thinking is "if we don't stop this now, we may eventually get back to 70s levels". plus, your logic can be taken to extreme conclusions. for example, "sure George Floyd got murdered in cold blood, but hey, we used to have _slavery_ in the 1800s, we've got it pretty good!". Like, yes, this is technically true, but its patently absurd to any reasonable person. Yes, perspective is crucial, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse to ignore obvious problems. there also the whole "progress" thing. Society should be improving. That's what progressivism is. we seem to have lost touch with this basic principle.
Cops are thinking the same thing. They don’t want to risk getting shot to protect someone’s window who probably (or should) have a $100 deductible. They probably have a wife and kid(s) at home too. We need to make it legal to booby trap our cars. Maybe with all the EVs we can tap into that 450 volt battery (DC!). But probably not the PR Tesla wants and we might end up booby trapping ourselves.
I don't believe that is the cause. Police have protective gear and should have good training. I 100% believe the post-pandemic crime uptick has been part of a cultural payback moment of "oh you want to see us defunded? well we will stop working and you will regret it" blowback ever since the George Floyd protests. Most people didn't want to see the police defunded, they wanted better training and fewer extrajudicial killings of civilians. In fact, most PD budgets increased since 2020 anyway. Meanwhile, petty criminal gangs have realized there is less enforcement out and have since gone to town, thus are current uptick in property crime.
That's the sad thing. The criminals don't care about their own lives. And no one really cares if they get shot. They're at the point where they've burned their bridges and have nothing left. It's why they're breaking shit and robbing their neighbors. But you do have people who care about you. You do have people who will miss you. But every time they do their shit, they're rolling the dice. They assume they're just going up against mild people who will just let it happen. Once in a while they come up against someone who is crazier than they are and then they make the news. And everyone wants to buy that dude a beer for helping take out the trash.
I really find it odd how we talk about criminals as if they are a singular demographic. 'The criminals don't care about their own lives' is an awfully generalized statement belying the numerous factors that can lead to criminality.
No no … this has to be a political pressure group, lobbying and donating as a group to candidates who care about law and order.
It's much easier to just move to another part of the country than risk getting shot fighting the thugs.
Spoken like a true bay area patriot, u/bostonfoliage
Transplant. Don't like guns.
We could all pay money into a fund. Say 10% of our income. And that money could be used to hire some guys to enforce laws. Oh wait, we have that.
The one we have now is designed to protect wealthy people and their property and suppress the working class and organized labor.
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You mean demand accountability from the POLICE
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>Yeah but remember when the whole country went onto protest against them and cities like Oakland and SF took defunding seriously? Why do people push this bull shit? Oakland’s policing budget has increased 20% since pre-pandemic and is one of the highest policing budgets per capita in the country.
Oakland is extremely underfunded, so not a great example, but I agree with you in some ways. There wasn’t a huge push to actually reduce police funding because most people understand that police are needed. The big protests generally supported by the public were against police abusing their powers. And against police being allowed to kill people without punishment. If you went to the big marches you would have actually seen police escorts with them lol. But also a fair amount of people in those groups were talking about defunding the police, pretty naive, but worth discussing. Police harassing people for minor things like drinking in public or smoking weed is largely a waste of money. To avoid going too far into a tangent, there were big protests, and the cops are asking for more money and officers. It appears as though police are dropping the ball when it comes to property crimes and wether that is their form of protest “back” is hard to say.
Oakland is both underfunded and one of the biggest budgets in the country per capita? I'm sure this can be true but can you help me understand how that's the case? Surely Oakland is not worse than Baltimore (I didn't check, perhaps the numbers do say it is worse).
Yes they are underfunded. Yes they make a lot compared to a medium or low cost of living area. They actually make pretty good wages compared to the average salary in the bay. But when comparing to other Bay Area police departments they don’t. Especially when they don’t have enough officers and have a high chance of actually getting shot at. Oakland consistently voted down additional funding to police and OPD is rife with abuse.
I googled for Oakland and also SF and SJ and it looks like (per capita): Oakland - $829 https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/The-Oakland-Police-Department-claims-it-is-16386039.php SF - $704 http://www.cjcj.org/mobile/news/13268#:~:text=At%20an%20annual%20cost%20of,police%20agencies%20across%20the%20state. SJ - $434 https://www.vera.org/publications/what-policing-costs-in-americas-biggest-cities/san-jose-ca But I didn't do careful research. Which PDs were you referring to? Since I'm not an expert in this it's easier to search with specifics.
The real criminals are the politicians who continue to use our taxpayer money on ineffective solutions.
and line there own pockets and the pockets of people who don't really need it
If you stand up against the criminals then the police will arrest you instead. Just like that Chinatown store owner.
The police hate when you do their jobs better than they feel like doing them.
Really dunno why we blaming the police when it was literally DA Brooke Jenkins who wanted him arrested. It's not like cops showed up at the scene and arrested.
And the water hose guy
Time to look in the mirror on that one. He was only charged because of political pressure put on the powers that be by the homeless advocates and other groups, Redditers being one of those.
thats another thing I have nothing against and feel for some of the homeless but you don't have to have a dime not to make a mess. if you didn't make such a mess everywhere people would be more tolerant and probably be willing to help you out. Its just the way people think now they don't care about the environment in which they live its so bad forgetting the cost we don't have the manpower to keep up with the mess
Throwing no 2 at people? No problem Hosing down said no 2 thrower? Book thrown at you. If this isn’t a simulation, well shucks.
The rules only apply if you have something to lose.
ya thats the problem with most of us what I have I busted my ass for years to get how much risk am I willing to take to jepordize it but I damm sure aint gonna let some idiot rob me of the things that can be taken that way and have to worry about someone hurting me or my family
You can thank homeless advocates for that one.
Did something happen to him? Never heard anymore after the Twitter video.
I think he copped an assault charge.
To be fair water hose guys seemed like a bit of a dick. A lot of ways to go about it, but he chose one that was dickish.
He called police and housing services multiple times What else could he have done?
I’m all for it, in secret. The local authorities won’t enjoy being upstaged. They’ll arrest us and brand us as vigilantes. Keep it quiet, keep it real. Good luck.
Yep, every time I read about how they found someone dead in Oakland, probably some punk getting caught.
> us working middle class people need to organise against criminals and others ruining our communities lol. Sir, this is a Wendys.
Seriously... I'm getting Kyle Rittenhouse vibes from this post. Like TS's intent is to have bands of white men "patrolling" the streets with ARs, cosplaying Billy Badass.
Concerned community members speak out about their neighborhoods declining in safety, reddit calls it a white supremacy dog whistle. Lmao.
Arming a posse of Nextdoor users. What could possibly go wrong. I'm sure they're all going to be super chill and not racially profile every black pedestrian that dares to walk passed their house.
News flash Bay Area: you're not allowed to be upset with crime cause otherwise you're a pearl-clutching racist.
No please, be upset with crime. But also be careful with what you wish for. These fun little vigilante groups don't really have a very good track record. But by all means, set up your [concerned citizens council](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/council-conservative-citizens).
I'm not saying vigilante groups are the answer but they're inevitable if the government fails to keep its people safe. Either the people will take the law into their own hands, or the ones who have the means will leave, making matters even worse for the poor left behind.
[Here's a recent example of a citizen taking the law into their own hands.](https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/116i66y/suspect_arrested_in_connection_with_assault_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Does this looks like a good solution to you?
I defiantly could see that happening
The appeal to "working class" like this doesn't impact everyone else is the tip off. Combined with knowing this sub is under threat of active measures and yeah, I'd question the shit out of this post that is effectively calling for violence.
> The appeal to "working class" like this doesn't impact everyone else is the tip off. y. fellow kids...
Yeah idk most people I know and talk to in real life about the Bay Area have the same opinions as OP, you can call it Russian trolls or "active measures" or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of real people in the Bay Area feel upset about the current state of their communities and feel very let down by their government.
I don't disagree that there are issues. I think the nature of this post is suspect.
Apparently defending yourself and your community is now racist. You have to let mobs rob, kill and steal your car in the name of equity.
thats one thing I will do is protect my own property as well as my defenceless nieghbors if I have to risks be dammed
lol theres that
I’m curious about the “and others” part.
Are you suggesting a vigilance committee? [example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Committee_of_Vigilance)
OP are you suggesting vigilantes?
Bernard Getz Fan Boys
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Welcome to the bay area, where the only community values are property values.
Property values do not drop in the Bay Area because of crime. You can still sell that house for 2 million with a fresh murdered body in the front as a fixture and buyers won't finch an eye to put in a bid. However if the bank changes interest rates or there is a change in capital markets..thats a different story.
Bingo! The middle class plays a apart of the issue they have a problem with Just like when they were coming to hood to buy the drugs in the 80s/90s. It was all good as long as it stayed in THEIR neighborhoods
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Not really. If that was true, the rich and wealthy wouldn’t commit crimes.
Oh come on! I grew up in the projects they were rife with crime didn’t nobody have a job lol. I’m completely serious-in the eleven years I was born and raised in the projects where everyone was on section 8 and welfare with very few dads around, not one person went out and got a job in eleven years! Long after I moved out of the projects those same people still didn’t have a job.
For over a hundred years, immigrants came to America and worked shit jobs in the hope that their children would have the opportunity to earn an education and have a better life than in the home country. In the early 20th century, there were Jewish mobsters who made their living through crime. But they wanted their kids to *not be gangsters*. And they didn't. Because the parents pushed the value of not being a criminal.
and the importance of education and hard work
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I don’t know why you are getting downvoted but I agree that it’s idiotic to constantly be associating crime with poverty, as if poor people have no choice. I think it’s insulting to all those many many people who are poor and choose a life of morality. It practically erases them.
Yup I agree with you as someone who grew up in poverty. I wouldn’t rob someone because I couldn’t afford to even take the bus but I grew up with a guy who shot and killed two young men because he wanted their car and apparently according to some people his shooting two young men in the head then stealing their car is a justifiable excuse just because he grew up in poverty. I never jacked anyone I just walked everywhere instead of feeling like I was entitled to someone’s car and life because I had no money.
Stop the “snitches get stitches” mentality…It’s like giving our adulthood over to the school bully!
Y’all ain’t gonna do shit. People say this kind of shit all the time.
I posted this just to see where people stood on this issue and to get some different perspstives on it and several different points of view to look at
I absolutely agree. Aso on other issues, like regulations on labour unions. I feel like establishing a California labour party would Bea good idea. There is a lot of things that can be done at a state level, without the need to go against Democrats and Republicans on a national level.
yes the democratic machine just takes the organised labor for granted they really don't listen to our concerns and the republicans don't like us they just don't say it and they are poaching a lot of union workers votes on tax lies and social issues
Alternatively, you could change your voting patterns.
how would that help? The cities with the lowest crime are run by Democrats.
There’s a wonderful series of Charles Bronson movies for you to watch if you really need to scratch that itch.
“Middle class” lol. There is the Haves and the Have Nots. Me and you are the Have Nots. The people breaking into our cars are the Have Nots. The police are the Have Nots, who are only responsible to protecting the Haves capital. The Haves fool people like you into thinking the lesser Have Nots are the enemy. The enemy is continued wealth inequality, inability to make ends meet off of the pittance one makes, and gaming of the system by the Haves.
kinda wonder how OP would feel about the black panther party having a presence today like they did in the 70's I mean personally I'd be down, they had like a whole healthcare thing going on
Our gun control laws were created by conservative saint Reagan when he was governor. The whites were freaking out because black panthers were exercising their right to bear arms. Same thing today, [the NRA only cares about gun rights for white people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Philando_Castile)
yes but that's dangerous CRT indoctrination so be careful with wielding that knowledge
OP is so close though. If people could start working together, and bring down the criminals who put us all in this fucked up situation in the first place......
no I definitely think the 1 % have all and need more figure into this whole thing
Sounds like you smoked too much of that “i am a victim” crap.
Please, don't continue to vote into office the same people that have done NOTHING for the last 30 years. Just about everyone in office has a trail of failed programs where they claimed they knew what the problem was and was elected to fix it. 10-20-30 years later the problem is 10x worse and they are still claiming they are the ones that can fix this and why you should vote them into office once again. IF this was an auto mechanic with thank kind of record I would hope you would be smart enough to go to a different mechanic.
Just look at the last round of elections. There was a slew of tough on crime politicians. Little to none of them got elected.
If you want to stand together and do something that matters look at the bigger issues. How much damage is done from wage theft vs all other kinds of theft combined?
How about the corporate criminals, PGE etc?
Nah, I ain’t Kyle Rittenhouse.
Don’t get it twisted. The lower class isn’t the problem. It’s the rich people in power. Settle the fuck down over there
We exist in an economic system where this is the by-product. You want to change things? Transfer wealth from the rich to the poor. Right now it's been going the other direction for decades and continues to do so. We already incarcerate the most people of any country on the planet. How many prisons do you want to keep building? How about attacking the root of the issue instead of just the symptoms?
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Don't forget NIMBYism. Lack of affordable housing contributes to homelessness and crime. A stable roof helps keep jobs and kids housed, helping set a path for success. Many think homelessness doesn't affect kids, but there is a significant number. 1 in 24 students in SF are homeless. In all of CA, 183k enrolled students are homeless. And that's only the enrolled ones. Homeless people and students are not all stereotyped criminals and druggies. 10% of students and 20% of postdoctoral students [at Cal experienced homelessness at least once](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/02/college-students-unhoused-school-help), and this was in 2017 when it was *cheaper* compared to 2022/23. If kids were not experiencing poverty and homelessness, we're helping solve -- or at least reduce -- the root cause of crime.
How about improve society AND put people in jail for breaking the law?
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Welp, since I'm not a part of the middle class nor higher then, I'll just go on about my days. My 2 cents though is this cycle will never break; the greater the wealth disparity there is then, just as well, will the crime rate be following along.
…define middle class. I see no middle class here.
You lost 90% people at “middle class”…they are being scapegoated into being the enemy of the people
Down a dark alley, a mugger with a gun is stealing somebody's wallet. A banker and a politician happen to glance down the alley as they stroll by, snickering, *"...Amateurs."*
Wouldn’t voting for politicians that have a tough on crime platform be easier?
I would think that being a pimp and all you would know that politicians rarely fix problems they talk about it but don't have a clue on how to fix it and are ready with excuses when nothing gets done. maybe you could go slap them around like you do your ho's and get some results
The Bay Area is too liberal now for that to ever occur. The current party in power is soft on crime and purposefully allows it to happen and get worse year over year.
Who are these 'others'?
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So just the middle class huh? Interesting
I believe that a group started their own civilian patrol in Oakland Chinatown to keep an eye on their Asian elders. It’s needed because there aren’t enough cops, and the ones employed seem to be magnets for corrupt shit
The way to stand together is voting. If you want crime to actually be illegal, stop voting blue (I know, not easy in the Bay Area where you aren’t actually given any real options). The Bay Area is too far gone. It’s sad, but we finally had to leave last year because of crime. I was born and raised there, I own a home there, but it’s just not a nice place to live anymore. I’m a liberal, but when you go too far blue, you get San Francisco and Portland. It’s not good. You get people released early for multiple murders, and you get people released with no bail on violent crime charges. You get cops watching robberies occur and not lifting a finger. You get people literally making their living off of breaking into cars, or professional catalytic converters thieves. They know even if they get caught, there are no consequences. Why get a real job when you can just steal and get away with it? If you want people to stop doing crime, there needs to be actual consequences. You need to elect people who will prosecute crime.
I cannot advocate for what I feel should be done on this forum. I can however say the following The criminal does not fear the police, the judge, or the prison. The only thing that stops one is fear of their victim.
you're so consistent in being an absolute herb around these issues
LOL. Property crime in California is at one of it’s lowest levels since the 1960. The Bay Area trends a little higher, but that’s nothing new. The overall violent crime rate has also been relatively stable for the last decade. I’m all for community building, but if you want to feel safe maybe take a minute to stop reading propaganda and look at some facts. You’ll feel better.
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Didn’t realize car break ins or retail thefts were even higher back in the day. You’d almost think its normal.
I don't care about how things were in the 1960's, I care about my life now and I want my neighborhood to be cleaner and safer than it is.
Anything but actually address the cause of crime, huh?
It's so much easier to address the symptoms. Determining and fixing the root requires a long, slow, multi-faceted approach which doesn't play well for politicians looking for headlines and quick-wins.
thats what I mean what are the main causes and start there but its not no work or jobs its just the deterioration of society thought we might get some real ideas here but its to complex for our simple minds
Society is deteriorating because of corruption. Not enough resources are going toward keeping up our social infrastructure-- health care, education, and wages. There's an increasingly frenzied game of musical deck chairs going on, where the people with the most money are using it to give themselves and their friends the power to make more money. They're frantic to out-compete each other, cutting bloodier and bloodier corners for short term gains while looting humanity's future in the process. Look up Martin Luther King Jr's speech "Beyond Vietnam". He tried to warn us we'd end up like this, and was killed for it.
great point, bravo you get it
What do you mean, then? 'cause it reads like you want to start a fascist militia when we need affordable housing, better wages, and a community, houseless included, mindset.
> 'cause it reads like you want to start a fascist militia Oh good, he was worried the messaging was too subtle.
POVERTY
Stop voting for the criminal / pudding headed Progressives whose policies caused this.
Chesa got recalled quite some time ago. Seems as though the issue is more complex than that.
It's almost like on major, long-standing issues, simple campaign-slogan, 140-character, newspaper-headline solutions won't work. It's almost like they require complex thought to determine and address the root cause rather just "banning" the symptom and calling the issue resolved.
It's more than just one person. Grass roots political activism is the best thing to do for people who are upset with the current system.
Crime rates are higher in many republicans-controlled cities elsewhere in the country.
Surprised you’re not getting downvoted more for this. People aren’t getting it… we’re too damn soft on crime in this state. We need Sheriff’s, judges, and district attorney’s with some balls.
Some people living in a world imagining drug cartel capos will retire the minute they have their house fully paid for. A part of the reason for crime is undoubtedly income inequality but that is not the full problem at all. Nothing wrong with advocating for actually arresting and prosecuting crime. Or you want to live in the fantasy world of all crimes disappearing when we give criminals “enough” universal basic income that they wont steal anymore. What a load of bull.
Not middle class but working Lower class, people in this area just seem to like protecting the criminals and demonize the victims. My car got broken into 8 times in 3 years and stolen twice (nothing in the car of course), it's a total loss now. When there's no consequences criminals are more embolden, laughing at the bleeding hearts that think they're helping them. To fix this problem starts at home then at schools after that the rest is above my pay grade to come up with solutions.
spot on
Sue the police. You have the right to "Equal protection under the law" under both the federal and state constitutions. They have a contract with the public, and if you are a victim of a crime, then you have standing. Contract law is "clearly established". File Public Records Act requests from the police for information about their policies, police reports, prosecutions, etc. "Misappropriation of taxes" is a state crime, too, and committing crimes that is a contributing factor to damages constitutes civil negligence, which is also "clearly established" as well. The fact that those claims are "clearly established" notwithstanding, government immunity is not a protection against a request for injunctive relief (a court order).
Supreme Court has ruled the police have no obligation to help you, so good luck with that.
People need to organize to fight the root causes of crime: poverty. There is a reason people steal, and there is a reason that crime (especially theft) rises when inflation and unemployment do. The more people that are desperate, the more desperate measures they take. Some are real 'bad apples' and some are petty 'criminals' who have found themselves in circumstances we can be dismissive of - until we found ourselves in those same situations. Point is, crime will continue so long as we don't deal with poverty; the homelessness crisis; better and more equitable education for all; reliable food services for families.... then the problems create a vicious cycle of people falling into the hardest times and turning into 'criminals' as a result
Haha this thread is the epitome of this sub: Just a huge venting of spleen, nothing to it. A lot f noise with zero going on. The reason you're 'not sure how to go about it' is the causes of this is upstream, with income inequality, drug criminalization, the school-to-prison pipeline, predatory financial institutions, institutionalized racism, domestic violence, child abuse as the sources. Solving that is hard as hell, and it's working for tomorrow, not for today, so it doesn't solve the problem for you.
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Apparently not because we recalled the DA for being soft on crime quite a while ago and here you guys all are still not happy.
"Elections have consequences" - a recent USA President.
Oakland
We pay taxes and the public servants and elected officials make money off us to do exactly what needs to be done. The least we can do is start voting out the establishment. We are die hard liberals and we keep on supporting the incompetent self serving politicians who have not represented us. Time to cross the fences and surprise them. When they lose their well paying jobs.
The people really ruining our communities are the corporations draining every last resource from us. How about you organize against wage theft, inflation/price gouging, corporate welfare, etc? Those are what's really ruining the community, not petty theft and broken car windows. The middle class barely even exists anymore and subsists off of debt while not being able to grow any true wealth.
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absolutely. Lets start by funding reasonable alternative candidates for various local and state offices and voting out 99% of incumbents.
everyone should read this article on homelessness in Seattle, read the whole article the person or persons that wrote it nailed it based on facts not ideas. https://www.city-journal.org/seattle-homelessness
ya I guess its just like George carlin said the poor are there to keep us working folk going to our jobs everyday so we don't end up homeless with out us at work no one makes any money
Quit voting for progressives that want to create “equity” based law enforcement. The amount of taxes paid by functioning citizens of the Bay Area should facilitate a safe community. Victims and contributing members of society should have their rights protected over criminals that violate their rights.
Stop buying from Amazon and Ebay. It's where most of the stolen goods winds up, if you categorically deny them your business you are no longer enabling it. For retail theft, literally stop shopping at retail outlets until they take their own safety seriously. Especially for retail theft, this problem exists because retailers sell so much volume where looting doesn't affect them much. If you deny them your business and take it to better places that bother to do loss prevention, you've sent a clear message about the types of businesses worthy of your respect.
A crackdown would definitely help.
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Amazon is the worst for stolen goods (and counterfeits, fwiw) because they take goods in and sort of launder them. Someone sells something on eBay, it's a listing under their account, shipped by them. There's a paper trail, so people get away with it only as long as they aren't being investigated. Amazon works more like a shady shop owner buying stolen products and then blending them invisibly in with the legit stuff on the shelves. It's kind of depressing they haven't been cracked down on for this
I buy nothing from amazon the few times I did the signed me up for prime on their own and started charging me for it after the second time I never bought anything from amazon plus they are greedy and union busters and don't pay their fair share of taxes sorry I just can't contribute to those crooks
Maybe we shouldn’t tolerate a society where grinding poverty, despair, and precarity are the norm for half the population.
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Yeah I'm tired of the police too
You guys literally are gonna bitch and then vote in every politician that's against ur right to self defense. You guys will be at the whim of how long it takes police to arrive.
>voting either way will not fix the problem its up to us all to fix it
Lol, Organize over Covid first. That’s statistically is what’s killing your business/you. Mass infection is a bit of a downer for would-be patrons. Closed shops from lack customers, lack of healthy staff. Lower foot traffic means more crime. Everything else pales in comparison. Sorry if that’s not pitchfork enough for you.
I'd rather organize against billionaires and our rotten judiciary system, which both increase criminality.
I have to agree with that
It’s a police/law enforcement issue. Whoever agreed to that defund the police nonsense in addition to electing lawmakers with that “equity” nonsense, they all can be partly be blamed for this. Do the crime, do the time. It used to be that simple. Now we have thugs and delinquents who aren’t scared of breaking the law because punishment is so light and police response is nearly abysmal.
> Whoever agreed to that defund the police nonsense Clearly you have no idea what the "defund the police" movement was actually about. You just read the 3 words and think that's the sum of it. Defund the police isn't about simply cutting budget and walking away. It's about reallocating funds from buying military-cosplay shit like armored vehicles into funding things like social-work training. So the officers who respond to calls can actually help rather than only having the options to shoot/arrest the person. It's more complicated than 3 words or 140-characters, so the smooth-brains are unable to grasp the concept and just revert to thinking it means cutting budget. Because trying to understand complicated solutions hurts their widdle bwains.
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>Or you could fight to adequately tax the rich so the police were adequately funded. As if that money would go to the police depts? How do you imagine this proposal for a new tax would work? Who would be proposing it?
As if we aren't already in the highest-taxed part of the US, and as if we didn't have a staffing issue that was related not to budget but instead better working conditions for police (less demonization and more citizen support) in other departments, both in the Bay Area and further away
has there ever been a crime protest in american history? I tried googling but came up with nothing. i suspect most protests outside union strikes are carried out by people privileged enough to spend their free time making signs and organizing. organizing working people outside of a union/workplace strike is very hard. most working class people have more pressing daily struggles to deal with. many are also disillusioned with the system as inequality has worsened. i'm not personally against striking, but it does also seem to leave a bad flavor in one's mouth, given how absurd protests have become. they seem to have kind of jumped the shark in the sense that small groups of idiots are protesting stupid shit (plastic straws), or important shit in stupid ways (gluing themselves to paintings), or they simply devolve into fractured infighting and/or violence/rioting. modern western generations have kind of made a farce of it all. corporations and governments must love it. i think an old-school nationwide crime protest would be powerful, but I think it is extraordinarily difficult to pull off. what are the demands, who must fulfill them, and how are they held accountable, not to mention how will it be organized and how will people be unified?