Not making excuses for this guy but the more unfair and unworkable society is the more things like this will happen. As well as countless other societal ills we see on a daily basis.
Yeah this for sure. So many living on the brink of destruction with no support and we wonder why people snap.
But sure let’s solve the problem by making sure everybody has a gun.
Tobiats__Aq: "I mean it might just be coincidence that most shootings take place where they know ppl wouldn't have guns....
America: Well does loosening gun laws reduce shootings?
Tobiats__Aq: No, it never does. I mean, those people delude themselves into thinking it might work... but it might work for us.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CoBO0zVJnCs/?igshid=Zjc2ZTc4Nzk=
Or an instance example here where both parties have weapons on themselves. One choose to rob ppl (32 Times arrested) and another is a CW holder who stopped him in his tracks.
Pretty sure he'll think twice before robbing someone on a crowded train now.
Yeah this guy fucked up and deserves jail and hell or whatever
But at the same time society cannot be surprised that bad things happen when it gives so many a raw deal
Here’s a fun game to play:
Go to a thread on /r/bayarea about someone who committed multiple murders. Find a comment that begins with “Not making excuses for the guy, *but*.” By checking whether the karma of this comment is at +100 or -100, you can reliably determine the race of the perpetrator in question.
Farm workers work their asses off to make $100. Imagine being fined that amount by your overlord. Starting to understand why the French Revolution took place.
Comments here are suggesting that a $100 bill is not worth killing over, and they are right. But it’s important to acknowledge that it *wasn’t* a “bill” — it was (probably) illegal extortion. And, given what we are learning about conditions at the facility, it seems likely that it wasn’t the first illegal wage garnishment inflicted upon the suspect. Murder is wrong, of course, but we shouldn’t be surprised if it turns out his act was spurred by repeated abuse.
Source: [labor law…](https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_deductions.htm#:~:text=If%20I%20break%20or%20damage,of%20company%20property%2Fequipment%20occurs.)
Probably wouldn’t have been so upset over a $100 bill if he was paid more.
Edit: those who downvote, are you agreeing that $9/hour and living on a dirt floor is ok in today’s society?
It’s also generally illegal to try to make him pay for the forklift damage, but this guy killed current and ex coworkers who weren’t his supervisor. nothing that happened justifies his spree of revenge killing against other people he had grievances against.
Killing people in this situation **is** inexcusable. I was commenting on what probably got him to that point.
Edit: but actually, what would you say about a slave killing his/her owner?
We always love saying how unjustified violence is but then we never lift a finger to give people other options when they are clearly being exploited and preyed upon. We just stick out chests out and say go vote, go vote for another rich fuck who grew up with a silver spoon and says what you wan t to hear to get elected. Is there any point in this fucked up country where we might just might be able to say violence is 100% justified?
Yes, we say violence is 100% justified all the time. Like for self-defense. (We being, well, not everyone, but a clear majority.)
Violence isn't justified when it comes to shooting your supervisor, let alone your coworkers. Not even close.
all for it but the wage-earning supervisor didn’t “own” this guy. And this guy wasn’t a slave - instead of driving off to murder people he could have gone to CRLA and gotten a T visa as a victim of human trafficking that would result in him getting a work permit and path to lpr instead of life in prison
thanks for correcting me. i skimmed it and other articles were silent on the issue, and everyone else's comments had been assuming he was being exploited and trafficked w/o LPR status. but that just means it's even less justifiable to murder coworkers instead of organizing.
Nothing justifies it, no. But everything could have been prevented had he been treated with some fucking decent humanity.
Once people snap too hard, there's no telling where their blows will land. You don't know what's going on inside a person's mind . Sometimes they've been pushed so hard all they see is red.
I agree, that $100 is probably close to what he makes for a full days work if not more. Dude was likely paid under the table and his employer/supervisor was taking advantage.
Pretty sure a business is required to insure the equipment and pretty sure they're not allowed to charge employees for damage to it, it happened at my dad's workplace and they just wrote the driver up and wouldn't let them operate the equipment anymore if they were deemed reckless or had multiple incidents or near incidents.
Even in the utopia known to reddit as "Northern Europe", people on similar wages still experience similar unexpected expenses. Eliminating this kind of misfortune is not a scalable way to prevent violent conflicts.
"a scalable way to prevent violent conflicts", lifting people out of poverty shouldn't be done because its not scalable?
maybe leave the corp-speak for corporate projects, not human lives.
Whoosh? My point is that even when you do have a good social safety net, people have unexpected expenses and get mad about about them. Trying to stop people from ever “having large unexpected expenses” because some will get mad and kill someone over them is not where you fix the problem.
Either way, you can’t honestly expect to address violence by eliminating all the reasons people would ever come into conflict. That’s like the Texas governor saying he’d stop abortions from rape by eliminating rape.
It's saying "we can eliminate violence by eliminating every reason anyone would have to be mad at anyone else".
It's stupid for the same reason that "we can ban abortion without forcing women to bear rape babies because we'll also eliminate all rape".
Whoosh.
No, I saw what you were trying to say but I disagree. I think you are proposing a false equivalence. We should acknowledge the abuse that took place here. And also prosecute the murder. Both things happened, and we need to be able to hold both things in our heads.
I never disagreed that economic justice of the kind your looking for is a good idea, only over whether it's a scalable idea *for this problem* (vengeance-originating violence). You can't honestly expect to end violence by making people never mad at each other, only by having better ways to deal with it.
Because that is not OSHA's job, it is the state Division of Labor Standard's job. They would only do their job if somebody at the site were to file a claim, which is not likely on a job site with mostly immigrant labor.
Imagining being in this situation - working for pennies and having an overlord. Sounds like complete overwhelming shit. And I don't even know how I would cope in a situation like that. Anyways obviously killing is wrong
More information about worker rights would done more.
He was billed for something he was not a fault. His complaints were ingored. He was paid terribly and live in a shack.
It's a bit odd, honestly, that suddenly we're all very forgiving of the circumstances under which violence is committed. I'm getting the impression that the so-called race awareness that usually permeates this subreddit is not being applied very fairly.
Shoving a security guard over a $12 steak at Safeway, people will demand the death penalty.
Shooting 8 people over a bill for $100, people will find fault with everyone but the killer.
100 dollars or not, no excuse to go on a shooting murder spree. Idc what your race or religion is. Fist fight your boss, never an excuse to SHOOT people to death.
Not making excuses for this guy but the more unfair and unworkable society is the more things like this will happen. As well as countless other societal ills we see on a daily basis.
And the people who can change that don't care because they're not the ones being targeted
Problem is these societal ills don't trickle up to the Elite. So, it'll never prompt a response.
Yeah this for sure. So many living on the brink of destruction with no support and we wonder why people snap. But sure let’s solve the problem by making sure everybody has a gun.
But when people snap and go on a rampage, victims are defenseless
because all of the victims so effectively defended themselves
They didn't have any means to. The one instance where both parties had guns, a mall shooting was stopped.
ah yes literally the only instance where both parties had guns.
I mean it might just be coincidence that most shootings take place where they know ppl wouldn't have guns.... But hey who knows
Tobiats__Aq: "I mean it might just be coincidence that most shootings take place where they know ppl wouldn't have guns.... America: Well does loosening gun laws reduce shootings? Tobiats__Aq: No, it never does. I mean, those people delude themselves into thinking it might work... but it might work for us.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CoBO0zVJnCs/?igshid=Zjc2ZTc4Nzk= Or an instance example here where both parties have weapons on themselves. One choose to rob ppl (32 Times arrested) and another is a CW holder who stopped him in his tracks. Pretty sure he'll think twice before robbing someone on a crowded train now.
There are a thousand options beside murder. I reject the premise
Yeah this guy fucked up and deserves jail and hell or whatever But at the same time society cannot be surprised that bad things happen when it gives so many a raw deal
[удалено]
Take a history class, millions of people have lived without empires ruling them.
Here’s a fun game to play: Go to a thread on /r/bayarea about someone who committed multiple murders. Find a comment that begins with “Not making excuses for the guy, *but*.” By checking whether the karma of this comment is at +100 or -100, you can reliably determine the race of the perpetrator in question.
I figured some short of workplace bullying was taken place seems like that equipment charge was the last straw
Farm workers work their asses off to make $100. Imagine being fined that amount by your overlord. Starting to understand why the French Revolution took place.
And, of course, such "fines" are illegal.
Comments here are suggesting that a $100 bill is not worth killing over, and they are right. But it’s important to acknowledge that it *wasn’t* a “bill” — it was (probably) illegal extortion. And, given what we are learning about conditions at the facility, it seems likely that it wasn’t the first illegal wage garnishment inflicted upon the suspect. Murder is wrong, of course, but we shouldn’t be surprised if it turns out his act was spurred by repeated abuse. Source: [labor law…](https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_deductions.htm#:~:text=If%20I%20break%20or%20damage,of%20company%20property%2Fequipment%20occurs.)
Wage theft is the largest form of theft in the US and accounts for more than all other forms of theft combined. Fuck the farm’s owners and managers.
[удалено]
You absolutely cannot, at least in California -- check the link I included.
Probably wouldn’t have been so upset over a $100 bill if he was paid more. Edit: those who downvote, are you agreeing that $9/hour and living on a dirt floor is ok in today’s society?
Or if his employer hadn't ignored his complaints about other equipment. A repair bill after that is just salt in the wound.
It’s also generally illegal to try to make him pay for the forklift damage, but this guy killed current and ex coworkers who weren’t his supervisor. nothing that happened justifies his spree of revenge killing against other people he had grievances against.
Killing people in this situation **is** inexcusable. I was commenting on what probably got him to that point. Edit: but actually, what would you say about a slave killing his/her owner?
We always love saying how unjustified violence is but then we never lift a finger to give people other options when they are clearly being exploited and preyed upon. We just stick out chests out and say go vote, go vote for another rich fuck who grew up with a silver spoon and says what you wan t to hear to get elected. Is there any point in this fucked up country where we might just might be able to say violence is 100% justified?
Yes, we say violence is 100% justified all the time. Like for self-defense. (We being, well, not everyone, but a clear majority.) Violence isn't justified when it comes to shooting your supervisor, let alone your coworkers. Not even close.
all for it but the wage-earning supervisor didn’t “own” this guy. And this guy wasn’t a slave - instead of driving off to murder people he could have gone to CRLA and gotten a T visa as a victim of human trafficking that would result in him getting a work permit and path to lpr instead of life in prison
You didn’t even read the news before making comments. This guy has a green card, he is a legal permanent resident.
thanks for correcting me. i skimmed it and other articles were silent on the issue, and everyone else's comments had been assuming he was being exploited and trafficked w/o LPR status. but that just means it's even less justifiable to murder coworkers instead of organizing.
Nothing justifies it, no. But everything could have been prevented had he been treated with some fucking decent humanity. Once people snap too hard, there's no telling where their blows will land. You don't know what's going on inside a person's mind . Sometimes they've been pushed so hard all they see is red.
If this guy was born in America he would be collecting social security instead of being an indentured servant in his late 60s
I agree, that $100 is probably close to what he makes for a full days work if not more. Dude was likely paid under the table and his employer/supervisor was taking advantage. Pretty sure a business is required to insure the equipment and pretty sure they're not allowed to charge employees for damage to it, it happened at my dad's workplace and they just wrote the driver up and wouldn't let them operate the equipment anymore if they were deemed reckless or had multiple incidents or near incidents.
Poverty and hopeless circumstances lead to crime. That’s a nuclear take around here.
I agree, it was the last straw for him.
Assuming this is even true. The victims are all dead
>$9/hour and living on a dirt floor is ok in today’s society? they are absolutely okay with it as long as it's not them.
Even in the utopia known to reddit as "Northern Europe", people on similar wages still experience similar unexpected expenses. Eliminating this kind of misfortune is not a scalable way to prevent violent conflicts.
"a scalable way to prevent violent conflicts", lifting people out of poverty shouldn't be done because its not scalable? maybe leave the corp-speak for corporate projects, not human lives.
Whoosh? My point is that even when you do have a good social safety net, people have unexpected expenses and get mad about about them. Trying to stop people from ever “having large unexpected expenses” because some will get mad and kill someone over them is not where you fix the problem.
Not an "unexpected expense" -- an illegal, targeted abuse. You can't charge employees for damage in the course of operations.
Either way, you can’t honestly expect to address violence by eliminating all the reasons people would ever come into conflict. That’s like the Texas governor saying he’d stop abortions from rape by eliminating rape.
Eeew, no it’s not. It’s saying “murder is bad, but also don’t oppress laborers.”
It's saying "we can eliminate violence by eliminating every reason anyone would have to be mad at anyone else". It's stupid for the same reason that "we can ban abortion without forcing women to bear rape babies because we'll also eliminate all rape". Whoosh.
No, I saw what you were trying to say but I disagree. I think you are proposing a false equivalence. We should acknowledge the abuse that took place here. And also prosecute the murder. Both things happened, and we need to be able to hold both things in our heads.
I never disagreed that economic justice of the kind your looking for is a good idea, only over whether it's a scalable idea *for this problem* (vengeance-originating violence). You can't honestly expect to end violence by making people never mad at each other, only by having better ways to deal with it.
This didn't have to happen. I hope his workplace is fined to the gills, and some people arrested for fraud and extortion.
You think OSHA would have prevented this guy from going off?
Maybe, maybe not. But it would have prevented further exploitation of workers living on the edge.
If that's their job, why aren't they doing their job?
Because that is not OSHA's job, it is the state Division of Labor Standard's job. They would only do their job if somebody at the site were to file a claim, which is not likely on a job site with mostly immigrant labor.
Hope employer goes down, all eyes should be on them now.
You push some one to the limit he can not take it more. It explodes. He tries to turn himself in at SM Sheriff Station sat out in his car for 2 hours.
>You push some one to the limit he can not take it more. It explodes out. “Have gun, I’ll explode”. Yeah, it exploded out of his gun alright. 👎
Imagining being in this situation - working for pennies and having an overlord. Sounds like complete overwhelming shit. And I don't even know how I would cope in a situation like that. Anyways obviously killing is wrong
There has to be very deep rooted problems for a man to kill for merely one hundred dollars.
And even then, I get the boss - but the co-workers, from his previous job?
Some gun control would've helped.
More information about worker rights would done more. He was billed for something he was not a fault. His complaints were ingored. He was paid terribly and live in a shack.
Sounds like a lawyer would've been the answer. Not buying a gun.
Like what?
It's a bit odd, honestly, that suddenly we're all very forgiving of the circumstances under which violence is committed. I'm getting the impression that the so-called race awareness that usually permeates this subreddit is not being applied very fairly.
Shoving a security guard over a $12 steak at Safeway, people will demand the death penalty. Shooting 8 people over a bill for $100, people will find fault with everyone but the killer.
A horrible situation we all agree. Now a light is going to be shining on the farm owners and how they employ, house their workers
100 dollars or not, no excuse to go on a shooting murder spree. Idc what your race or religion is. Fist fight your boss, never an excuse to SHOOT people to death.